Why did some people Survive the black plague?

Quite a few people survived the disease itself, but died while recovering because they'd been walled into their houses by their terrified neighbors or abandoned by their families to die of starvation.

Sleep well tonight, OP!

About the bubonic plague

masochistic?

Quarantines, isolation and natural immunity.

Europeans were very isolated in the Middle Ages, anyway -- ever splintering apart into remote kingdoms and traveling little in the 14th century.

Plus, no pandemic takes out everyone. There are always some people on whom the bacteria or virus doesn't catch, not to mention some with genetic immunity.

They washed their hands after poohing.

They were witches!

I'll ask Narcissus and Goldmund.

No natural infection humans have ever encountered is 100% fatal. After all, you're reading this. Q.E.D.

You had to have fleas and you had to have a certain type of rat to carry that flea. Without that you were fine. It's like malaria. Only certain types of mosquitoes can carry the malaria germ.

Once, in my senior year at Swarthmore, three little black girls attempted to pledge our sorority! Can you imagine?

Some of us had the sense to get out of New Orleans before Katrina struck.

The Andersons house the Plague Rats! Can you imagine?!?!!

We're only infested by free-range, cruelty-free rats.

^^lulz...reads like a Far Side gag.

The Pope sat surrounded by a circle of lit candles keeping the fleas away. He survived. True story.

I did a paper on this in high school. There's "The Black Death" and the black plague, which are different time periods.

OP, I read this book a few years ago. It's a decent overview.

For a contemporary account of the plague in Florence, OP, nothing beats the Proem to Boccaccio's Decameron. Here is an excerpt; the rest at link:

Not such were they as in the East, where an issue of blood from the nose was a manifest sign of inevitable death; but in men and women alike it first betrayed itself by the emergence of certain tumours in the groin or the armpits, some of which grew as large as a common apple, others as an egg, some more, some less, which the common folk called gavoccioli. From the two said parts of the body this deadly gavocciolo soon began to propagate and spread itself in all directions indifferently; after which the form of the malady began to change, black spots or livid making their appearance in many cases on the arm or the thigh or elsewhere, now few and large, now minute and numerous. And as the gavocciolo had been and still was an infallible token of approaching death, such also were these spots on whomever they shewed themselves. Which maladies seemed to set entirely at naught both the art of the physician and the virtues of physic; indeed, whether it was that the disorder was of a nature to defy such treatment, or that the physicians were at fault—besides the qualified there was now a multitude both of men and of women who practised without having received the slightest tincture of medical science—and, being in ignorance of its source, failed to apply the proper remedies; in either case, not merely were those that recovered few, but almost all within three days from the appearance of the said symptoms, sooner or later, died, and in most cases without any fever or other attendant malady.

The history channel did a great doc on this. I highly recommend it.

OP - there’s also much questioning about the background of the plague in the fourteenth centuries and then the sixteenth. Apparently some of the stats of how it spread don’t fit the usually accepted theory of the rat fleas being the culprit. And there’s talk of pneumonic plague - the airborne version - being more likely the culprit.

It’s good to question perceived wisdom.

Anyway - I think humans are not that much different to how bateria grown immune to antibiotics, just as antibiotics don’t kill all the bugs - most fieases do not kill all the humans. And in both cases - the survivors breed and confer immunity on subsequent generations...

Cats. The answer is cats. Apparently there was a fear of cats as an instrument of the devil and cats were killed off, which lead to a spread of rats. Areas that did not share this fear of cats, were less affected by the plague than areas that did,

Good. They deserved to die then. Poor kitties.

If you're of European descent, you're descended from plague survivors and have immunities yourself.

r17's Decameron is a thoughtful choice.

By 1990, nearly every gay man I knew had read, was reading, or expressed an interest in reading Defoe's Journal Of The Plague Year.

It still stands, for me, as THE piece of literature to make sense of our plague,

I reread it every year.

The AIDS epidemic was hardly the black plague. AIDS was and is 100% preventable, the black death was communicable.

r24 nothing is 100%, but I know what you mean (Fleas can carry infected blood, bedbugs, mosquitos, etc.)

It took 200 years for the European population to get back to pre-plague numbers.

What a breath of fresh air it must have been once it was over, you were safe, and all those people were gone. I think of how much easier my commute would be with 2/3 of my city dead and I am green with envy!

Bring out ye dead! Bring out ye dead!

Black plague?? You mean Black Death don't you dummy? I saw the title and thought it was an epidemic that had hit the coloured community.

I thought op meant the kind that results in white flight

Oh there have been pandemics and epidemics over time since. In the early 20th century there was the Spanish flu that killed a whole bunch of people.

And even now MRSA and VRSA - they come from the soil around us. That's fascinating.

Also why every year there's a new flu vaccine.

I recall reading that some scientists who were studying long-term HIV survival had seen a link between people who had natural resistance to the plague and those who had the HIV virus which never developed into full blown AIDS.

There is a lot of evidence supporting that R32 and it's one of the reasons why AIDS hits black and Hispanic populations so hard, no natural immunity.

When did Africa ever have an event comparable to the Black Plague?

R32, R33, this was at one point theorised but it now seems to have been smallpox exposure (and subsequently raised immunity in descendants), not plague, that is the factor for Europeans being more resistant to HIV than non-Europeans.

"I recall reading that some scientists who were studying long-term HIV survival had seen a link between people who had natural resistance to the plague and those who had the HIV virus which never developed into full blown AIDS."

Many researchers now say that if your family survived the plague you probably have resistance to AIDS as well. Weird but true.

It's just a theory, but there does seem to be a link to direct descendants of Black Plague survivors and HIV immunity.

Read the most current papers; it is now that to be smallpox exposure, not plague.

Here there was the Spanish Flu and now? Republicumism (is that a word?) it seems to be a disease that is killing us.

P.S. R37, nearly ALL living Western Europeans are descendants of plague survivors. It killed everyone else.

Black Death was a Eurasian pandemic, having decimated populations in not just Europe, but also in the Mongol and Chinese empires, Asia Minor, and the Middle East.

If you want plagues, read up on the "Lost Cities of the Amazon". When European explorers first came to the mainland Americas in the 1500s, they brought European diseases with them, and the native populations had zero resistance to smallpox, measles, and other easily spread diseases. In some areas, such as the Amazon basin, the death rate was as high as 90%.

Which makes the Black Death with its 30% death rate look like a case of the sniffles!

Apparently there had been cities in the amazon basin, population centers with wooden buildings which were connected to other population centers by roads and bridges, all of which were taken back by the jungle when 90% of the humans died suddenly. Imagine that, nobody left alive but 10% of the population, presumably a random 10%. You could lose everyone in your region who knows how to build roads so the roads fall into disrepair and the survivors become isolated, you could lose all the farmers or fisherman and there's nothing for the survivors to eat. Good odds of losing all your tribe's oral history, and knowledge of how to get herbal medicines from the jungle. Maybe there are more survivors in the next town over, and they're facing starvation and decide to deal with it by attacking you, and that's the end of your tribe for all time.

I mean there was a lot of that sort of thing with the Black Death in Europe, where regions would depopulate because there weren't enough people left to maintain any kind of economy, but there was enough written knowledge and enough governmental and international religious structure to maintain that society in spite of depopulation. That's not always the case with major plagues.

Can everyone please note that there were TWO major plague events, one was called "The Black Death" and it occurred earlier, and the second was The Black Plague?

I had never heard of "black plague" until this thread. "Black death," yes. "Bubonic plague," yes. "Black plague," no.

We barely survived [italic]The Black Hole[/italic] and [italic]The Black Cauldron[/italic]. Now look at us!

What about us?

There were two major plagues - the far worse was in 1347 (the "Black Death", which is now thought to have killed 50% of the population) and the less lethal in 1666 (expressly NOT called the "Black Plague", wtf?!).

Not everyone got bitten by fleas. Untreated AIDS however is 100% fatal.

They probably had the flu jab.

Purell

[quote] R4, R8: No natural infection humans have ever encountered is 100% fatal. After all, you're reading this. Q.E.D.

This should not be interpreted to mean that it’s not possible, or will never happen. It is true that a bug would do better by not killing everybody, allowing it to continue to infect a host population, in perpetuity. But I don’t think that means it could never happen. Aren’t there examples of other species that were wiped out by disease? I’m sure there are.

DataLounge actually filled me in in the details of this disease, a while back. I’m amazed that I had never heard of it, as it swept the world.

My Grandfather caught Encephalitis lethargica, which ruined him. He was never the same. He was a ambitious man, with a bus company and apartments. But he lost it all as he was unable to work. He would sit and stare at the radio, like someone might today, with a TV. I suspect it might have been a factor in the heart attack that killed him years later.

Madagascar regularly gets the Bubonic plague on a yearly basis in Autumn because of the fleas:

I saw on the History channel that a society can only abruptly lose a certain percent of its population, or the society will break down. With people specialized, only being able to be doctors, or grocers, or whatever. If people are specialized, then you can’t handle the loss of a small percentage. It was something like 30%, maybe, just a theory.

They mentioned this in reference to the death of so many American Indians. They theorized that many of their societies just broke down and collapsed. This would mean a lot would have died from lack of food, shelter, parental care, or medical care, not just disease.

This has been the most fascinating thread here in quite a while. I was completely ignorant to the timelines of the different plagues.

And I had no idea that the Bubonic plague was still an issue in Madagascar. How horrible.

They were exclusive tops.

I love to read about all the creepy shit going down in Europe during the bubonic plague. Love the plague doctors.

Following on R57, Nostradamus was a well-known plague doctor whose wife died of the plague.

Don't forget the Red Death

R58, my suspicion is that most of the doctors had no clue how to treat a disease at that time.

I saw a TV show, granted a typically unreliable source, where the Pope was pondering the source of the plague. An advisor suggested it might be the Jews. The Pope dismissed that, saying that they were also getting sick.

Whether based on history or invented for dramatic purposes, it rings true of both their general ignorance, and reflexive, ingrained bigotry at the time of the earlier plague. But even the 1600s plague might have gotten that response.

Great post, R60.

R60, the Jews were actually blamed for causing the plague, which resulted in numerous massacres against them.

An unusual gift from the New World to the Old, was the Spanish Disease, which the Spanish called the French Disease - Syphilis! Apparently, it had a dozen names. European people named it after whatever hated neighbors they had.

The Europeans had a greater variety of farm animals, to which farmers lived in very close proximity. These disease-ridden animals, chickens and pigs in particular, spread disease to the Euros and they developed antibodies that the American Indians did not have. That’s why most diseases went one way, to the West.

The Americans didn’t have a horse, or any animal to pull a plow or cart. They had to walk everywhere. They had no chickens, pigs, or oxen. No wonder the buffalo were so important to the Plains Indians! They did have (undomesticated) turkeys, moose, capybara, and other animals to eat, though. But almost no work animals. Is a Llama a work animal?

[quote] moose, capybara,

Are the Christmas Moose and Boxing Day Capybara descendants of those particular North American animals?

R62, that article makes me sick!

How could the Jews charge artisans usurious rates!

R54, I posted above about the "Lost Cities of the Amazon", and apparently that's what happened when Europeans first came to the region. The resulting plague wiped out something like 90% of the native population, and the societies collapsed.

The first Europeans to travel down the Amazon rivers saw towns and cities with large populations, bridges and roads, farms and fields, and a high level of civilization. Apparently they and their fellows passed on some diseases that the natives had no resistance to, and further written accounts show primitive tribes scraping a hunter-gatherer existence out of the woods, and it's only recently come to light that these primitive native peoples were descended from people who were much more technologically advanced, and that all the ethnologists who surmised that it was impossible to live more than a primitive existence in the hostile environment of the Amazon basin were wrong. It really is fascinating reading.

66 replies and no mention of Thieves' Oil or Thieves' Vinegar?

[quote]Take three pints of strong white wine vinegar, add a handful of each of wormwood, meadowsweet, wild marjoram and sage, fifty cloves, two ounces of campanula roots, two ounces of angelic, rosemary and horehound and three large measures of champhor. Place the mixture in a container for fifteen days, strain and express then bottle. Use by rubbing it on the hands, ears and temples from time to time when approaching a plague victim.

[quote]Not everyone got bitten by fleas. Untreated AIDS however is 100% fatal.

Incorrect, R48. First, AIDS isn't an infection, it's a progression of symptoms whose primary cause seems to be HIV infection. However, not everyone who is infected with HIV develops AIDS, even when untreated.

R64, thank you for your interest! But I will have to get back to you on that. I thought the Boxing Day Capybara got promoted?

I did read that the Capybara was almost extinct some time ago, but is safe now.

The Chacaon Peccary is an American pig-related animal, so the Americans had that. See link.

There are stories about prehistoric eggs or fossils or drugs found on the “wrong” continent, indicating unrecorded, pre-Colombian, cross-Ocean travel, but it’s not well studied. One-way travel, I bet. I suspect it’s too political for people to want to bother studying. Plus, there’s probably no sponsors interested in paying for the research.

My friend has had HIV since the mid 1980s. He got treated and looked fine until the early 2000s. I can’t comment on how he felt or what was happening to his body. Now he looks very wasted, if that’s the right word, but he’s still fully functional. It’s amazing.

[quote]My friend has had HIV since the mid 1980s. He got treated and looked fine until the early 2000s. I can’t comment on how he felt or what was happening to his body.

Those drugs kept him alive, even healthy,

[quote]Now he looks very wasted,

They came with a price.

ACH !!

Der Judens = Der Plague !!

Bubonic plague still shows up from time to time in the US, r55:

New research indicates it was humans who spread it. Their filthy bodies infested with fleas and lice.

because they were just mean selfish bastards. Like, if we had a black plague now, Trump would probably survive because he is all about his own survival. Did anyone catch the photo of him today? It was pouring rain and Melania was soaked. Barron too. But President Shithole he had an umbrella. Interestingly, he had to carry it himself. There was no Marine to assist. I hope that piece of shit gets pneumonia.

Remember that scene from "The Devils' with the plague victims? Horrible.

People who could afford to leave the cities and live in the countryside to wait out the plague did so in fairly large numbers.

They lived in shithole villages!

....

Yes, R77. Those who had the means followed the meme: "quick, far and away"

As soon as your heard about the first case approaching your town, you'd flee to remote country where you had a relative. Few could do that but that was a survival method for those who could.

Technically Tuberculosis (Phthisis, Scrofula) has killed more people than any plague or other viral infection combined.

It has been documented since Ancient times and only started to come under control after The BCG vaccination program in the 1950's.

1.7 million people still died from it in 2016 despite this.

So what's cholera? I thought that was The Plague? What's The Black Death? Was it all the same disease with different names or was it a bunch of different diseases. Was it really a flu? In movies you see people puking blood then dying, or they get blistery sores all over and then puke blood. It sort of reminds me of the way Ebola looks in movies. Some of these diseases are still around with different names aren't they?

R66, it's not just South America that was decimated by the arrival of Europeans. Nathaniel Philbrick wrote a terrific book titled "Mayflower" and in the early chapters he describes how Europeans had been fishing along the New England coast in the 1500s. As a matter of fact, the native tribes had already been descimated long before 1620. Apparently, several French sailors had been kidnapped by a tribe. One of them was ill - and that was that... infection spread like wildfire. There are accounts of sections of the forest floor that were covered with the bones of the dead.

Salmonella killed off he Aztecs apparently.

"So what's cholera? I thought that was The Plague? What's The Black Death? "

Cholera is a waterborne disease that has nothing to do with the plague. A "plague" is any contagious disease that kills enough people, and "THE plague" is the bubonic plague that swept across Europe in the 14th century in common parlance, or the AIDS epidemic in eldergay circles.

High schools ought to teach elementary microbiology.

Cholera is still endemic in many countries, get a vaccination and take antibiotics with you - just in case

[quote] Why did some people Survive the black plague?

Practice. Practice. Practice.

R7, I loved Narcissus and Goldman...