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I just watched "Summertime" starring Miss Katharine Hepburn

So, was her character supposed to be an actual virgin or just seriously underfucked?

And was her hair so ugly on purpose or was that just how women wore their hair back then? That hairdo made her look 15 years older.

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by Anonymousreply 260February 21, 2019 9:09 PM

Women wore their hair like that and I am sure she was a virgin.

by Anonymousreply 1December 25, 2017 5:37 PM

" I am sure she was a virgin. "

Bwahahahaha. Too much bumpin' pussy for her to ever be considered a virgin.

by Anonymousreply 2December 25, 2017 5:41 PM

Everybody Loves Leona!

Hepburn is very good in the role, but Elizabeth Allen owns the part for me. (Full disclosure- not familiar with Shirley Booth's original.)

by Anonymousreply 3December 25, 2017 5:41 PM

She looked great for 48. But I think film stock is a lot kinder to faces than digital technology. I watched "Opening Night" recently and Gena Rowlands, who was in her late 40s in the film, has flawless skin (even in tight close-ups). It occurred to me this may be because of how skin looks on actual film.

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by Anonymousreply 4December 25, 2017 6:33 PM

Perhaps her hair was so ugly on purpose because —she is playing an American schoolmarm —Kate was rather eccentric.

by Anonymousreply 5December 25, 2017 6:41 PM

Kate playing a stereotypical schoolmarm isn't as painful as Miss Undisciplined Ham playing a schoolmarm in that play by Welsh homosexual Emlyn Williams

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by Anonymousreply 6December 25, 2017 6:46 PM

This was pretty much Kates standard hair for many of her roles. I remember the scene in The Lion in Winter when she lets her hair down I was almost shocked how long it was.

by Anonymousreply 7December 25, 2017 6:49 PM

In her later movies, Kate always wore her hair up. She was always touching her hair, brushing it off her face with the back of her hand, patting it behind her ear, fussing with it. etc. I'm sure she drove the hair and make-up people crazy.

by Anonymousreply 8December 25, 2017 6:57 PM

Yes R8. There's that interesting Youtube clip making the TV studio people crazy by rearranging the furniture on the set before being interviewed by some skinny nobody.

by Anonymousreply 9December 25, 2017 7:01 PM

The FIRST Jane Hudson!

by Anonymousreply 10December 25, 2017 7:06 PM

Funny. Rossano Brazzi was my memory of Summertime.

by Anonymousreply 11December 25, 2017 7:29 PM

I don't think she was a virgin - doesn't she talk about her high school boyfriend (who was too poor to buy her a flower) in one scene? But then again, she does make Rossano buy her a WHITE flower and that could symbolize her virgin pussy.

I thought her hair looked like shit too. The only scene where it looks nice is where she and Rossano go on a boat trip.

by Anonymousreply 12December 25, 2017 7:50 PM

And I'm sure you've all heard how Kate suffered a life-long eye infection from the water in that nasty Venetian canal she falls into. No stunt double for Miss Hepburn!

She essentially played the same role in The Rainmaker with the same hairdo opposite Burt Lancaster

by Anonymousreply 13December 25, 2017 7:58 PM

Imagine Kate with the helmeted, bouffant hairstyles of the late 50s/60s, like Jackie Kennedy. She would've looked so bizarre with those styles.

by Anonymousreply 14December 25, 2017 7:58 PM

Or Kate with a "Mamie!"

by Anonymousreply 15December 25, 2017 8:02 PM

She did look quite striking when she let her hair down in the monologue scene in "Lion in Winter", however I think she kept her hair up to better showcase her marvelous (and frankly iconic) cheekbones/bone structure.

by Anonymousreply 16December 26, 2017 2:39 AM

If you imagine Kate would've looked bizarre with the helmeted, bouffant hairstyles of the late 50s/60s, R14, praise be she wasn't living in the 1850s or now when women have to wear this stupid King Charles Spaniel look.

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by Anonymousreply 17December 26, 2017 5:24 AM

I love Summertime and Desk Set. She had that frizzy fly-away hair and high collar fashion in both. But I find her far more believable as a love-starved virgin with Rossano than I do as a romantic interest for a decades-younger Gig Young.

by Anonymousreply 18December 26, 2017 6:51 AM

[quote]Funny. Rossano Brazzi was my memory of Summertime.

Me too, r11.

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by Anonymousreply 19December 29, 2017 10:58 PM

My favourite part of Summertime was when Rossano used his son as a go-between, much to Kate's horror.

Italians do it differently.

by Anonymousreply 20December 29, 2017 11:17 PM

R15. Katharine Hepburn IS Mame!

by Anonymousreply 21December 29, 2017 11:17 PM

I thought R19 was down-time off-set in 'South Pacific' wearing those shocking Continental 'bees' they wear.

by Anonymousreply 22December 29, 2017 11:24 PM

R21 Kate's Mame would've been better than Kate's Coco Chanel.

by Anonymousreply 23December 30, 2017 12:58 AM

Summertime.

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by Anonymousreply 24December 30, 2017 1:12 AM

Did Katharine Hepburn ever show her collar bone?

by Anonymousreply 25December 30, 2017 1:14 AM

Mamma Mia!!

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by Anonymousreply 26December 30, 2017 1:19 AM

Sorry, just did not buy hot DILF Rossano Brazzi(who actually got BETTER looking with age) with Kate who, incidentally, only radiated "sex" when she was in drag.

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by Anonymousreply 27December 30, 2017 1:19 AM

[quote]Funny. Rossano Brazzi was my memory of Summertime.

TESTIFY! And there's nothing funny about it. The man was seriously fuckable.

What's funny is that I saw him in 1949s "Little Women" when he was younger and still had dark hair and I wasn't impressed.

But as a 40ish silver fox? UNNHH.

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by Anonymousreply 28December 30, 2017 1:27 AM

R28 NO ONE would look attractive with those ridiculous sideburns he had to wear in Little Women.

I think he was at the height of his beauty in Vulcano (which was actually filmed the same year as Little Women). He plays a very evil character in that film but damn - he just oozes sex, and that was before the grey hair kicked in!

Here's a pic from the film:

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by Anonymousreply 29December 30, 2017 1:51 AM

Another pic from Vulcano:

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by Anonymousreply 30December 30, 2017 1:54 AM

[quote]The FIRST Jane Hudson!—And created by a gay man, Arthur Laurents!

Arthur Laurents created Leona Samish.

Gore Vidal is the one who christened her Jane Hudson, who knows why?

by Anonymousreply 31December 30, 2017 3:08 AM

R18, Gig Young was only 6 years younger than Hepburn. And I loved Desk Set.

by Anonymousreply 32December 30, 2017 4:26 AM

She looks like David Bowie at the beginning of R27, when she’s getting the mustache penciled on.

by Anonymousreply 33December 30, 2017 5:18 AM

R31 They had to change name Samish because it sounds distractingly unusual

by Anonymousreply 34December 30, 2017 5:47 AM

The name was originally Ham Samish.

by Anonymousreply 35December 30, 2017 6:07 AM

The sets in Summertime were fabulous. Of course it helped that they filmed it on location. That terrace that they used to just sit and relax was so peaceful looking.

by Anonymousreply 36December 30, 2017 6:45 AM

Shooting on location was surprisingly new, it's one of the things that made the dull "Around the World in 80 Days" such an event. Before that, absolutely everything from Venice to Antarctica was filmed in the LA Basin, or maybe the Owens Valley at the furthest. So while the cinematography is still impressive, in the 1950s it must have bowled people over, they'd never seen the movies show anything so fabulous.

As for Miss Hepburn's tragi hair, her hair seems to have been naturally frizzy and tragic. Somehow the Hollywood studios got her to keep her hair groomed and styled through the 1930s and 40s, but by the 50s she'd given up and let things frizz where they may, onscreen and off. It doesn't really work for the character of an old maid schoolteacher, the average single professional woman of that era would go to the beauty salon every week to get herself pampered. Even poor girls who worked in factories would generally do the best they could with their hair, frizzy unstyled hair like Hepburn's is something you'd expect to see on a farmwife.

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by Anonymousreply 37December 30, 2017 8:42 AM

I think it's one of her best films, up there with The Philadelphia Story, The Lion In Winter and Adams Rib. The scene where she realises that the pensione she is staying at is a hot bed of sexual intrigue...and that Brazzi is a rake, is so well done. You can see her world implode and her fantasies shatter, and it's then that she can start relaxing fully. She could act...I can't imagine anyone else pulling off that frail dignity and quavering sexual fear.

by Anonymousreply 38December 30, 2017 9:02 AM

I've read comments on IMDB about how unbelievable Rozzanos attraction for her is. What I say is would you believe he could be attracted to Shirley Booth? Which is who Arthur Laurents wanted in the part.

by Anonymousreply 39December 30, 2017 9:06 AM

[quote]Before that, absolutely everything from Venice to Antarctica was filmed in the LA Basin, or maybe the Owens Valley

Excuse us?

by Anonymousreply 40December 30, 2017 9:07 AM

You sent me into a fit of uncontrollable giggling, r35.

by Anonymousreply 41December 30, 2017 9:09 AM

When Rossano Brazzi eyed her skinny shapeless legs, I was slightly surprised.

But he on the other hand, was the hot Italian daddy everyone fantasises about fucking on holiday.

by Anonymousreply 42December 30, 2017 9:09 AM

What's everyone's favourite scene? Mine is the part where there in the long grass at dusk and Kate is really sensual.

by Anonymousreply 43December 30, 2017 9:10 AM

[quote]The name was originally Ham Samish.

They should remake it with Meryl Streep!

by Anonymousreply 44December 30, 2017 9:12 AM

My favorite part is where she finds the gondolier in a dark corner blowing Rossano, with a line six deep waiting for their turn.

by Anonymousreply 45December 30, 2017 9:13 AM

I have seen hot straight guys pursue uglier women than Kate believe me. However I think Signor De Rossi is meant to be a rake....that's what I think the whole thing is about...our fantasies and illusions being veils to seeing what the real world is like. That's why she suddenly goes home...because it's all been a diversion but couldn't develop. De Rossi may have found her attractive but I think it was mainly about extra curricular sex for him. The film looks like a conventional love story....but it isn't.

by Anonymousreply 46December 30, 2017 9:16 AM

I think her being a middle aged Virgin turned him on most. She was a challenge. Anyone agree?

by Anonymousreply 47December 30, 2017 9:20 AM

No. In the play (and the musical) Leona makes clear that she is not a virgin. She knows her way around a big dick.

by Anonymousreply 48December 30, 2017 9:22 AM

Well in the film at least she is definately a Virgin. ..no question.

by Anonymousreply 49December 30, 2017 9:25 AM

Since Kate was known to be a dyke that means Kate was never penetrated by pinga and was truly a virgin!

by Anonymousreply 50December 30, 2017 9:49 AM

She was very different in this role.

by Anonymousreply 51December 30, 2017 9:57 AM

[quote]I have seen hot straight guys pursue uglier women than Kate believe me. However I think Signor De Rossi is meant to be a rake....that's what I think the whole thing is about...our fantasies and illusions being veils to seeing what the real world is like. That's why she suddenly goes home...because it's all been a diversion but couldn't develop. De Rossi may have found her attractive but I think it was mainly about extra curricular sex for him. The film looks like a conventional love story....but it isn't.

r46, I love your interpretation. It is quite subversive - how we create fantasy and play our parts in going along with it to take what pleasure we can in the short term.

David Lean was very into portraying these kinds of women... he saw Adela Quested in A PASSAGE TO INDIA in the same light (she wasn't, really) and fought with Judy Davis over it.

He really should have adapted some seamy Southern Gothic. THE GLASS MENAGERIE, perhaps.

by Anonymousreply 52December 30, 2017 10:33 AM

My first BF, a sweet irish lad, looked exactly like Hepburn in drag in Sylvia Scatlett!

by Anonymousreply 53December 30, 2017 10:45 AM

I never thought she was supposed to be a virgin. I mean, that would have been kind of bizarre.

And I love a good updo! Grace Kelly wore a similar style.

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by Anonymousreply 54December 30, 2017 10:48 AM

Was that photo of Brazzi in speedo taken on the set of South Pacific? He must have been a brave man to walk around that set dressed like that, with all the horny gay men that worked on that film around.

by Anonymousreply 55December 30, 2017 1:44 PM

Gawd... the hairstyle Hepburn wears in SUMMERTIME is basically the same hairstyle that Lucille Ball wears in I LOVE LUCY and the same hairstyle worn by Ethel Merman in GYPSY and Janet Leigh in MY SISTER EILEEN. It is the quintessential mid-1950's all-purpose no-nonsense female hair style.

All throughout history, up until the upheaval of the 1960's, if a woman's hair was down she was either headed for bed or insane. After the 1960's, all bets are off as to whether or not a woman is insane. How could anyone tell? Would you have Hepburn, a repressed school marm, swanning about Venice with Veronica Lake's hair?

If Hepburn didn't have this hairstyle in SUMMERTIME, that would require some explanation.

As for her choice of hair styles in her personal life, her standard informal hair style was perfectly in line with her standard informal wardrobe. Slacks and a baggy shirt and Elizabeth Taylor's exploding bouffant? Hardly.

by Anonymousreply 56December 30, 2017 2:26 PM

What makes that up do hair style particularly distinctive to the 1950s is that the chignon or bun is worn high on the crown, in the same position it would have been worn by young girls of the decade, but loosened and called a pony tail. This positioning of the hair was sort of based on the Greek Knot, often seen on goddesses in ancient vase paintings and sculptures.

In previous decades, the chignon was generally worn either at the nape WWI-1940s), covering the back of the neck.....or on the very top of the head as a top knot (Gibson Girl).

So there I've taught you all something about period hair styles.

by Anonymousreply 57December 30, 2017 2:42 PM

Her character being a virgin at that time would not have been bizarre, but rather expected for a woman who had no serious adult relationships. She was the epitome of an old maid, right down to being a schoolmarm, except Hepburn was too pretty and strong for her to be fully believable as an old maid.

Very believable that the character was a virgin, entirely unbelievable that Hepburn could have been.

by Anonymousreply 58December 30, 2017 2:55 PM

I don't think it's unbelievable at all. Whether or not you think Jane Hudson is a Virgin.....she definitely hasn't been neat and man in years....also her ideas about romance are the kind that inexperienced girls have. My god she was good in this part. When she says to Brazzi through tears 'it's just....just not how I thought it would be' it is totally believable and heartbreaking.

by Anonymousreply 59December 30, 2017 3:00 PM

I wonder if feminists like this film? Ino some ways you can say it's proto feminist...because she makes a decision to end it.

by Anonymousreply 60December 30, 2017 3:02 PM

My impression is that by her post-MGM years of the 1950s, Hepburn was no longer thought of as much of a beauty, as though her independent style of no makeup, frizzy hair and baggy slacks, allowed the public to regard her as a starchy old maid. She remained unmarried in real life and most of her roles of that decade were some form of that character.

It wasn't until the late 1960s, with her comeback in Guess Who's Coming to Dinner/The Lion in Winter, that she was truly embraced and appreciated as the unconventional beauty that she actually was. Frizzy hair, baggy slacks and no makeup were in and American fashion had finally caught up with her.

by Anonymousreply 61December 30, 2017 3:06 PM

I think she was at least celibate for years... we never hear much about her home life, but it is implied that this European tour is an adventure she's been saving for and looking forward to. It's the old theme of an individual being taken out of their routine, and all the attendant regressions, and allowing themselves to feel and see with new eyes.

by Anonymousreply 62December 30, 2017 3:07 PM

BUMP!

by Anonymousreply 63December 30, 2017 3:11 PM

Don't be silly r39, I originated the role....

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by Anonymousreply 64December 30, 2017 3:26 PM

Shirley Booth would have been awful in the role...'Jackie. ..Jackie I love ya Jaaackie '

by Anonymousreply 65December 30, 2017 3:47 PM

Jane Hudson is a secretary, not a schoolmarm. And it’s implied that she was a virgin - the images of the red goblet, her newly acquired red shoes, red dress, etc suggest her desire to change her status. The shoe left behind is symbolic of what’s happening offscreen at this moment.

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by Anonymousreply 66December 30, 2017 4:08 PM

Great point R66

by Anonymousreply 67December 30, 2017 4:09 PM

Also being reasonably attractive isn't a guarantee of a healthy sex life. Some people have psychological problems around sex. I really relate to the character as I myself have never been able to be fully at ease with sex...yet long to be. People watch a movie and project their own sensibilities onto the narrative but life is very diverse.

by Anonymousreply 68December 30, 2017 4:13 PM

She really nailed this role and should have won the Oscar for that year.

by Anonymousreply 69December 30, 2017 4:15 PM

People who only know Shirley Booth from Hazel have no idea of her versatility and range and that she was one of the finest actresses America ever produced.

Laurents was fired from the film after doing the the first draft of the screenplay, which he kept very close to the original play. It needed changes to accommodate the personalities of Hepburn and Brazzi as well as opening up for film. He refused to make any.

Hepburn insisted on doing the scene where Leona falls into the canal herself, refusing a stunt double. She later blamed scene for causing a recurrent eye infection that troubled her the rest of her life. But Kevin Brownlow, the well known film historian and David Lean's biographer, said she frequently took early morning swims in the canals and her blaming that scene was an attempt to get money from the producers or their insurers.

Summertime was released in the UK under the title Summer Madness.

by Anonymousreply 70December 30, 2017 4:44 PM

Interesting thanks R70 I wonder if that's true?

by Anonymousreply 71December 30, 2017 5:01 PM

She swam every morning in the canals??? Did she have a death wish?

by Anonymousreply 72December 30, 2017 5:20 PM

I don't believe she did that she was too intelligent to swim in dirty canals.

by Anonymousreply 73December 30, 2017 5:24 PM

This thread is a pleasure to read. So many smart, informed posters!

Laurents getting fired from Summertime was and remains a constant habit in Hollywood. Often the screen rights are sold by the original author with a clause granting them the right and a large fee to write a draft of the screenplay, even though that first draft is and was most often rewritten by others.

by Anonymousreply 74December 30, 2017 5:28 PM

[quote]What's everyone's favourite scene? Mine is the part where there in the long grass at dusk and Kate is really sensual.

The scene where Darren Gavin and Mari Aldon hem and haw on whether to invite her along for drinks with some friends. He is reluctant to do so, and his wife nudges him. But Kate's character is so thin-skinned and tuned into being rejected and so proud, she hides and pretends that she doesn't hear them. But at the same time, her heart is breaking because she is longing for human connection.

by Anonymousreply 75December 30, 2017 5:28 PM

On the other hand, Kevin Brownlow was a very informed man and that's what he wrote in Lean's biography.

by Anonymousreply 76December 30, 2017 5:28 PM

Google Rossano Brazzi and first wife. Talk about mismatched! Hugh jackman and his wife got nothing on them!

by Anonymousreply 77December 30, 2017 7:09 PM

BUMP. Oh yes R75 that scene is so relatable. She is perfect...the range of emotions that cross her face as she waits for the boat to drive away..fear, disappointment, angst and finally resignation.

by Anonymousreply 78December 30, 2017 7:09 PM

"the hairstyle Hepburn wears in SUMMERTIME is basically the same hairstyle that Lucille Ball wears in I LOVE LUCY and the same hairstyle worn by Ethel Merman in GYPSY and Janet Leigh in MY SISTER EILEEN. It is the quintessential mid-1950's all-purpose no-nonsense female hair style. "

It's basically a bun with curly bangs, but what makes it unsophisticated and, well, tragic, is that it's obviously thrown into a frizzy mess at home rather than being the work of a salon. Sleek, groomed, producted-up, highly controlled hair was the look of the times, and any woman who could afford to travel could also afford to visit a salon regularly, and would do so as a social norm. To wear a style like that to Venice would be to announce one's self as a rube, a hayseed, someone a cut below the normal American tourist. And even a normal female rube would have visited a salon and gotten her hair done before her big trip of a lifetime.

Sure, Katherine Hepburn wore her hair like that in real life, but Katherine Hepburn was so wealthy, well-born, and successful that nobody would quibble if she went around looking like a lesbian hayseed.

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by Anonymousreply 79December 30, 2017 9:39 PM

We are conscious nowdays of dirty canals in Venice. But not in the 1950s.

People started using the word "pollution" in the 1960s. This book below was 1962.

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by Anonymousreply 80December 30, 2017 10:29 PM

Isn’t there any possible chance at all that a person who was just eccentric might go out like that?

by Anonymousreply 81December 30, 2017 10:33 PM

A single woman supporting herself as a teacher would not be laying out large amounts of money at a hair salon. And for whom would she do this? A room full of 3rd graders? Lots of working women manage their own hair, especially in an era where they were shamefully underpaid.

Comb it back. Fasten it. Pin curls in the front and comb them out. Done.

by Anonymousreply 82December 30, 2017 10:43 PM

The unadorned hairstyle (and relatively less makeup) was clearly a conscious choice on the part of Hepburn and Lean to deglamorize her and help make her believable as a sheltered Midwestern school teacher.

How stupid can anyone be not to understand this?

by Anonymousreply 83December 30, 2017 10:51 PM

R79 is absolutely correct. Old Money isn’t flashy or trying to impress. You don’t have to bow to convention because your place is secure.

I don’t think straight men thought she was at all sexually attractive. I just asked my husband and he said definitely not a sexy woman. And then he did such a dead-on impression of KH’s waggle and lockjaw elocution that now I doubt his hetero-ness.

by Anonymousreply 84December 30, 2017 11:48 PM

And that’s a very Zbornakian outfit there. Huh.

by Anonymousreply 85December 30, 2017 11:49 PM

Bless you, R83.

by Anonymousreply 86December 30, 2017 11:52 PM

She was a secretary, not a schoolteacher. Have you people even seen this movie?

by Anonymousreply 87December 30, 2017 11:52 PM

[quote]Google Rossano Brazzi and first wife. Talk about mismatched!

It's Italy. The wife is always ugly. The mistresses are the ones you fuck.

by Anonymousreply 88December 31, 2017 12:29 AM

I think Katharine Hepburn looks fairly beautiful in everything. It's more her manner that makes her seem off-putting, not her looks.

I remember I was watching ALICE ADAMS with a female friend, where she's wandering around a party as an ignored wallflower, and she said, "I guess no one notices THAT SHE'S GORGEOUS???"

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by Anonymousreply 89December 31, 2017 2:51 AM

Even secretaries and school teachers got their hair done once a week in a salon, or in the front room of a mother who worked out of her front room on Saturdays. Kate's character could definitely afford it and it's not expensive, anyway. (Remember there is a whole culture around black and latin women around beauty parlours). Hair styling was part of being groomed and looking like an acceptable woman. Like wearing nylons, removing lip and chin hairs, and perhaps wearing some light, non-slutty makeup like rouge and powder.

My very poor grandmother got her hair weekly did then expertly did her own pincurls every night. It wasn't that expensive, it was just a normal part of being a woman back in the day

by Anonymousreply 90December 31, 2017 5:14 AM

Not for every working woman r90. My mother was a nurse and only went to a beauty parlor twice (maybe three times?) a year. Looking back, out of the eight elementary school teachers I had, not even half were frequent salon goers....if that.

by Anonymousreply 91December 31, 2017 2:02 PM

If a woman was living on a man's income, then maybe a salon was in the cards.

But if a woman was on her own and living on what women were paid in those days, that would have been a huge expense. And after a certain age... why bother?

by Anonymousreply 92December 31, 2017 2:06 PM

Exactly, r92.......

by Anonymousreply 93December 31, 2017 2:14 PM

And don’t forget she had "saved up for such a long time" for her big trip to Venice.

by Anonymousreply 94December 31, 2017 2:18 PM

I just read that Brazzi's wife had a thyroid condition. She was thin when she married him, then balooned. He admitted to fucking thousands of women (marylin too) but that his wife was the only love of his life.

by Anonymousreply 95December 31, 2017 2:45 PM

I don't think as a longterm single woman she really cares much about her appearance she was not out to impress. However when she meets BrazzI and, shock horror he finds her attractive, she glams up.

by Anonymousreply 96December 31, 2017 2:48 PM

There's a cute moment where BrazzI is following her through alleys trying to talk her round, and she storms off in a huff only to turn the corner to see a dead end and she goes 'oh'. That always makes me chuckle.

by Anonymousreply 97December 31, 2017 2:50 PM

My housewife mother who was thrifty (rather than just cheap) only rarely got her hair done, although she did home perms.

It was more common for the home salon to be in the basement rather than the front room---better access to water and you didn't have to worry about chemicals on the carpet or furniture.

by Anonymousreply 98December 31, 2017 3:03 PM

"she is definately a Virgin. ..no question."

I've never heard of a defiant virgin before. Or a definat one either.

by Anonymousreply 99December 31, 2017 3:12 PM

What are you on about?

by Anonymousreply 100December 31, 2017 3:19 PM

Where are y'all watching this film? Is it on Netflix or Amazon or do I have to watch a creaky print on youtube? I haven't seen it in years but this thread has peaked my interest.

I can remember as a kid feeling all tingly down there about Darren McGavin, even more than Rossano Brazzi.

by Anonymousreply 101December 31, 2017 3:29 PM

R25, I believe,that was September 12, 1934, between 1:37 AM and 9:16 AM.

by Anonymousreply 102December 31, 2017 3:46 PM

R101 you can watch it in two parts on Daily motion.

by Anonymousreply 103December 31, 2017 3:52 PM

Hmmm... Got a link for that r103? Because I'm not finding it there.

Thanks.

by Anonymousreply 104December 31, 2017 4:07 PM

Catholic martyrdom is filled with defiant virgins, see, for example. St Agnes. Those pushy virgins didn't last long but they she got sainthoods, which is probably better than being some Medieval version of being a maiden aunt.

by Anonymousreply 105December 31, 2017 4:18 PM

All this nattering about my collar bone is just a bore, bore, bore! Let's talk about my great legs.....

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by Anonymousreply 106December 31, 2017 4:20 PM

If you search: Katharine Hepburn Summertime, you'll find it at Daily Motion.

by Anonymousreply 107December 31, 2017 4:21 PM

Did Hepburn ever show her legs in a role after her comeback in 1967? She always seemed to wear long dresses or trousers. One exception was in her stage show Coco, where shorter skirts couldn't be avoided.

I suspect it wasn't about not liking her legs but the necessity of wearing pantyhose which I'm sure she loathed. And a woman back then, even in the 1970s/80s wouldn't have shown her legs in high heels without some form of hosiery.

by Anonymousreply 108December 31, 2017 4:26 PM

Katharine/Catherine

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by Anonymousreply 109December 31, 2017 4:29 PM

I haven't seen this movie in ages, but want to again after reading this.

by Anonymousreply 110December 31, 2017 4:31 PM

BUMY. Keep the analysis of the movie coming. What would have happened if she hadn't got the train how long do you think she could have stayed in Venice?

by Anonymousreply 111December 31, 2017 4:45 PM

Was his wife wealthy? Did she own the studio?

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by Anonymousreply 112December 31, 2017 4:48 PM

R111, until he got tired of her...and he would have. The one line that defined the film "... I've always stayed too long at parties...now I know when to leave...". So true and so real!

by Anonymousreply 113December 31, 2017 4:49 PM

[quote] I haven't seen it in years but this thread has peaked my interest.

Oh, dear.

by Anonymousreply 114December 31, 2017 5:15 PM

[quote]It's Italy. The wife is always ugly. The mistresses are the ones you fuck.

It's not just in Italy.

by Anonymousreply 115December 31, 2017 5:15 PM

Once an Italian wife has had kids she can relax and eat normally because Italian men rarely leave their families.

Brazzi's wife was a wealthy Baroness. So there's that.

by Anonymousreply 116December 31, 2017 5:43 PM

Love this film, and her performance.

I'd guess "no" to the virginity question, although it had likely been a while.

But isn't it nice that the movie keeps you guessing about so many of these things?

by Anonymousreply 117December 31, 2017 5:51 PM

If you search Daily Motion for "Katharine Hepburn Summertime" you get three short clips related to the movie, totalling about 10 and a half minutes.

by Anonymousreply 118December 31, 2017 5:55 PM

Well the whole thing was definitely on there....are you lookingoing at the right videos?

by Anonymousreply 119December 31, 2017 5:57 PM

Here, hun. Copy and paste this into your google search engine. The two halves of the movie showed up as the 2nd and 3rd links:

dailymotion summertime katherine hepburn

by Anonymousreply 120December 31, 2017 6:00 PM

Google summertime 1955 Dailymotion and it comes up with two 50 min parts. I've just checked.

by Anonymousreply 121December 31, 2017 6:01 PM

Ah ha. Thank you. If you google it, yes, it comes up.

If you go to Daily Motion and search for it there... three short clips.

Again, thanks.

by Anonymousreply 122December 31, 2017 6:03 PM

Hope you enjoy this lovely film. I'm loving this thread thanks OP. Data lounge is at its best when discussing old Hollywood etc. Please keep posting.

by Anonymousreply 123December 31, 2017 6:06 PM

Haha so ironic...all these posters proclaiming with certainty that Brazzis character would never fancy the homely Hepburn.....and all along the actor had married a fat homely woman. So much for DL Rs worldview.

by Anonymousreply 124December 31, 2017 6:12 PM
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by Anonymousreply 125December 31, 2017 6:13 PM

You can sew one of the dresses she wore in DESK SET (1957)

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by Anonymousreply 126December 31, 2017 6:25 PM

Re: R126

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by Anonymousreply 127December 31, 2017 6:26 PM

Lovely Vera-Ellen also never showed her collar bone and it just about killed her.

by Anonymousreply 128December 31, 2017 7:02 PM

Since some of you know about all these things, was it her own hair in "Woman of the Year"? She looks great there.

Don't forget the later scene in "Summertime" at sunset where her hair has been let down. The contrast to her lazy 'do throughout the first half of the movie is quite pointed.

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by Anonymousreply 129December 31, 2017 7:36 PM

She was beautiful in woman of the year. Unfortunately the movie is seenot as misogynistic these dzays.

by Anonymousreply 130December 31, 2017 7:39 PM

[quote]The unadorned hairstyle (and relatively less makeup) was clearly a conscious choice on the part of Hepburn and Lean to deglamorize her and help make her believable as a sheltered Midwestern school teacher.

[quote]How stupid can anyone be not to understand this?

Hepburn wore the hair similar way in her life too.

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by Anonymousreply 131December 31, 2017 7:51 PM

My mom wore her hair up in a French twist from her teen years on. She thought sitting in a beauty parlor for an hour+ was boring, and decided early on she'd just put it up herself with a comb or a few pins, like Grace Kelly. My sibs and I were always fascinated she could do it in about 10 seconds without a mirror.

Like everything else, it works best if you have a good face.

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by Anonymousreply 132December 31, 2017 8:00 PM

Isn't someone going to desperately plead and explain why Hepburn was not a lesbian?

by Anonymousreply 133December 31, 2017 8:08 PM

[quote]R133 Isn't someone going to desperately plead and explain why Hepburn was not a lesbian?

[italic] (sound of rustling papers, as everyone tries to look busy.) [/italic]

by Anonymousreply 134December 31, 2017 8:34 PM

Oh good, here's my opportunity to contribute one of those 'transcribed book excerpts' threads. I own a copy of 'David Lean' by Stephen M. Silverman. It's a beautiful large coffee-table size book full of huge color photos from his movies. Here is the chapter about 'Summertime'. (Note: this chapter is fairly long, and it's going to take me awhile to transcribe it.)

"Now, most people," explains Katharine Hepburn, "if they have a wonderful piece of linen, they think they need to embroider it." Most people, she emphatically states, are not David Lean.

"Life's imprint on him is so strong," she says. "I mean, I know from my friend [editor-director] Tony Harvey, that if you sit in a cutting room long enough, it has a very strange effect on you, because you're all alone and you form your own point of view. You can try something as many different times as you want, and you always come out right. So you develop a sort of habit of always being right. That's David."

Katharine Hepburn and Lean worked together on Summertime, based on the 1952 Arthur Laurents play 'The Time of the Cuckoo'. In the original Broadway production, Shirley Booth starred as the visitor to Venice, a middle-aged spinster who in her tormented American fashion refuses to succumb to a brief encounter while on holiday. In the film version, coadapted, "equally," says Lean, by Lean and the novelist H.E. Bates ('The Cruise of the Breadwinner') the heroine, after some reluctance, falls for the charms of the city and her newly found lover.

"The man who finally produced the film, Ilya Lopert, had bought the play 'The Time of the Cuckoo', written by Arthur Laurents, who incidentally hated the film," says Lean. "And I think it was Lopert who suggested Katharine Hepburn. She was such an enormous star. Certainly in those days I wouldn't have dared approach her. I wouldn't have thought she was interested."

by Anonymousreply 135December 31, 2017 8:42 PM

More please, R135!

by Anonymousreply 136December 31, 2017 8:45 PM

The article at link contains some nice clips from Summertime, especially the second one entitled "Waiter", that demonstrates the genius of David Lean, and the charisma of Hepburn and Brazzi. How georgeous it all is! Note the well-dressed, even beautifully dressed, locals and tourists - compare to now, when everyone’s in t-shirts and leggings, cargo shorts and sneakers.

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by Anonymousreply 137December 31, 2017 8:48 PM

"I knew," says Katharine Hepburn "that David was going to throw out the whole script to the play and instead of having a lot of details about this and that and the other thing that 'The Time of the Cuckoo' was about he would just concentrate on a sort of forty-year-old secretary going to Venice for the first time and being flirted with across the Piazza San Marco and reacting to it in the most enthusiastic way and then leaving because it was totally impractical. And he was going to keep it just that."

Such simplicity, says Hepburn was born of artistic necessity. "If the essential subject of a story is of interest to everyone and that one is, then all you need are the circumstances, don't you?"

Whereas "most people would make a situation so complicated that they would louse it up," continues Hepburn "David is clear, simple and straight." She credits much of that ability to his utter lack of sentimentality.

"I think most of us quarrel with ourselves," she says, "Oh, should I be more this or more that, what is and what should be' David does't feel what should be.

"Take that fire." She points to her living-room fireplace. "Now, David can look at that fire and describe that fire absolutely. He would say 'This is what I think. And this is what I would do.' Meanwhile, most people are saying 'What would Joe think if I did that? And Mary, she'll be thrown for a loop.' But not David."

The daughter of a distinguished New England family (her father was a noted surgeon, her mother a strong activist for women's rights) Katharine Hepburn studied dramatics at Bryn Mawr College. The day after she was graduated in 1928 she found her first professional job on the stage. Playing summer stock and Broadway she gained a reputation for being outspoken (directors were not excluded from her comments) and was hired, fired, then rehired for her breakthrough leading Broadway role in 'The Warrior's Husband' (1932). RKO Pictures hurriedly paid a backstage call with the offer of a West Coast contract, one which Hepburn attempted to thwart by asking an enormous price. The studio met her terms.

by Anonymousreply 138December 31, 2017 11:36 PM

^ That Hepburn interview was done after 1968.

She mentions Lean's "utter lack of sentimentality" and that's probably alludes to him not being very interested in female romance. His best film was all-male and his worst films ('Ryan's Daughter' and 'Passionate Friends') are about slushy female romance.

Lots and lots of people say Lean treated woman as foolish sex-objects and servants.

by Anonymousreply 139December 31, 2017 11:48 PM

Maybe stories about women weren't Lean's greatest strength, but he had his share of good films about women, or strong female characters in films that didn't star women.

"Brief Encounter", "Summertime", "A Passage to India", Lara in "Doctor Zhivago", "Blithe Spirit" with the marvelous Margaret Rutherford, etc. Good enough for something that wasn't thought of as a strength.

by Anonymousreply 140January 1, 2018 12:12 AM

I find it hard to believe that Hepburn wasn't warned about the toxic Venice Canal water; aside from the local crew on location, she was a Bryn Mawr grad and came from a wealthy family. She must have heard over the years from her contacts (who would have done a Grand Tour of Europe) about the bad water.

by Anonymousreply 141January 1, 2018 12:13 AM

They obviously didn't study this book at Bryn Mawr

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by Anonymousreply 142January 1, 2018 12:17 AM

Hepburn's first film was 'A Bill of Divorcement' (1932) with John Barrymore and she continued at RKO routinely playing young independent-minded women of means. When those roles ran their course and audiences tired of her in them she returned to Broadway in Philip Barry's brittle romantic comedy about a spoiled society girl who does not know her own heart (or even if she has one) 'The Philadelphia Story'. The 1940 MGM film version - Hepburn owned the right to the play - brought her back to Hollywood and a contract with that studio.

"She was jolly good in 'The Philadelphia Story" says Lean, proffering his ultimate compliment. "And she looked smashing."

At MGM, among her most memorable films were a series of literate battles between the sexes starring herself and Spencer Tracy, including her immediate predecessor to 'Summertime',' 'Pat and Mike', directed by George Cukor. She played a talented athlete to Tracy's cantankerous coach.

"I can remember my first meeting with David" says Hepburn. "I went over to London, I met him, and I thought, 'Oh you're a charming man.' Then I met his wife, who was Ann Todd, and I could see that Ann Todd quickly asked me to tea, to see whether I was going to fall in love with David. Because everyone fell in love with him.

"But," insists Hepburn "I was in love with Spencer so I had the most impersonal feelings toward the male sex."

Hearing her own statement, she laughs so heartily as to make her next remark nearly indistinguishable. Asked to repeat, she calms down and says, "So we became great friends David and I. And we have remained for years friends."

by Anonymousreply 143January 1, 2018 12:20 AM

In the Dick Cavett interview, she talks about the canal scene and how filthy it was, and how afterwards she immediately bathed, brushed her teeth, etc, but never thought about her eyes, which became infected.

by Anonymousreply 144January 1, 2018 12:30 AM

Here's Hepburn at Byrn Mawr, before her Hollywood makeover.

And boy did she get one! Apparently the people at RKO were horrified by her appearance when she arrived, they had been expecting a beauty and not a girl with frizzy hair, freckles, man's clothes, no makeup, and an eye swollen shut because a piece of coal flew into it during her train trip from the east coast. Well the makeover did wonders, all she needed was a good haircut, some makeup, and some well-cut clothes. The camera loved her madly, once she was femmed up a bit.

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by Anonymousreply 145January 1, 2018 12:32 AM

She really was the biggest lez who ever lezzed.

by Anonymousreply 146January 1, 2018 12:37 AM

Have you once posted a correct link, R145?

by Anonymousreply 147January 1, 2018 12:37 AM

Does this link work?

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by Anonymousreply 148January 1, 2018 12:42 AM

Of their working relationship Hepburn says "I quickly kind of smelled out what David was like because I was brought up in the generation that always tried to please people, though you'd never guess it I suppose". Again with the laugh. "So I would try to figure out what a person's personality was. With David I was absolutely thrilled with what he knew about film and he and I just really hit if off. I know he can be rough because he's absolutely direct. You do something and he'll say 'What do you mean by that?'"

"She came to London and she was just wonderful" remembers Lean. "She's been well...I don't know, I suppose she's just about my greatest friend ever now. I love her. I mean, she had the same sort of experience as Celia Johnson. Celia and Kate, the two of them are the great actresses I've worked with. Just just wonderful both of them, no trouble at all, always easy. I remember being with Kate in Venice. We had a set high up overlooking the canal in which I said 'Look Kate, I'm afraid I can give you no excuse for it but, having done this and that in the middle of the room you've just got to walk to that window and I can give you no reason for doing that.' And she said 'Yeah, well that's what I'm paid for." And she did it. And it looked as if the only thing for her to do was to move to that window so she could look out. Just wonderful. I do admire that professionalism. It's like the actress who once asked Alfred Hitchcock 'What's the motivation for this scene?' and he said 'Your salary."'

"It sort of became a mad game to me" admits Hepburn. "David has a preconceived idea of what he wants out of a location, so I figured he probably had a preconceived idea of what he wants out of the actor. He would say something like "Now in this scene when the sun gets there you've got to burst into tears and you'll have to to do this and that, otherwise we'll have to come back here another day and do it again." That's a terrible responsibility but it didn't bother me, probably because I was a anxious to please him"

Hepburn unearths an old secret: that there was another performer on the film not so adroit or fortunate - the Italian actress Isa Miranda (1909-1982) who played the owner of the pensione where Hepburn's character comes to stay. "David picked her out." says Hepburn "and when she came to make the picture she'd lost weight and had her face lifted. Well, David just went mad because he'd picked her looking the way she did with just reason. And any time she tried to do a scene he early had a stroke. He just said "What are we going to do? I might as well shoot myself."

"That was awful" says Lean after hearing that Hepburn has told all. "I'd picked her after I'd seen her in a French movie playing a world-weary woman who'd obvious known a lot of men in her time. Then she showed up in Venice looking sort of glamorous, all wrong for the role, and I had no idea what could have happened to her. It was her hairdresser who tipped us off. He saw her scars and said she's had a facelift."

by Anonymousreply 149January 1, 2018 12:44 AM

Or perhaps this one?

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by Anonymousreply 150January 1, 2018 1:07 AM

Or maybe this?

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by Anonymousreply 151January 1, 2018 1:09 AM

I honestly don't know if she was a lesbian, but it really doesn't matter to me one way or another. It seems silly to argue it either way. But... I am curious, if it is true that she was a lesbian, is Spencer Tracy supposed to be gay? Because maybe I haven't paid close enough attention, but that's not a rumor I've really heard.

by Anonymousreply 152January 1, 2018 1:17 AM

It's available for streaming on Kanopy. Hope your library participates.

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by Anonymousreply 153January 1, 2018 1:18 AM

That's an interesting view R140 but I have another.

Those films certainly contained women but I don't think Lean was terribly interested in them. I certainly don't think any of them were 'strong female characters'.

I see Lean's career in three phases; The Good Years (1941-54), The Blockbuster Years (1955-65) and then the Years of Failure (1968-91).

He demonstrated his superior craftsmanship in the Forties with English stories in (mostly) black & white films. Then in the Fifties audiences demanded expensive 'blockbuster' films, shot on location in colour and wide-screen. Producers demanded that David Lean hire American actors (some of whom were very bad) to pay the expenses.

Hepburn was filming 'The African Queen' (in colour) in London in 1951. And no doubt she wanted to get on the blockbuster bandwagon in this David Lean movie where she got TOP billing (and she wasn't bothered by a supporting cast who might outshine her).

by Anonymousreply 154January 1, 2018 1:28 AM

I watched it last night with at Daily Motion. Throughout it all, I kept thinking of how heartbreaking it might have been if they had cast Shirley Booth as Leona. She would have made a great deal more sense of it all. Hepburn was hardly believable as a midwesterner (too much the forthright Yankee,) nor as a secretary (better as an anthropologist leading a dig in Luxor.) Nor could I imagine her ever stepping foot in Akron, Ohio. From the moment she harangued that old man on the train into Venice, I knew she was going to be an odd fit. She just doesn't know the midwest. She played that exchange as anyone but a midwesterner. If she talked like that to anyone in an office in Akron, Ohio, in the 1950's, she would have been tossed out on her ass. It did at least give us a reason for why she was unmarried. But from the outset, we need more 'Little Sheba' and less 'Philadelphia Story.'

She went on to give it a skillful performance, but she was much too flinty and peevish. Those tendencies consigned poor miscast Rossano Brazzi to struggle to make sense of his role. He was nine years younger than Hepburn and looked every day of it. Perhaps it worked in 1955, but in these more cynical times, I kept waiting for this stud to kill her or take her money. But he turned out not to be a variation of the gigolos in The Roman Spring of Mrs. Stone. As presented in Summertime, Renato is just a nice, but horny, Italian man diligently on the make for this crabby older woman. That makes no sense. Casting a much hotter, much younger, Italian man really confused things. One wonders what is wrong with his wife that she let this hot piece get out the door. Too many kids? We don't know. His character would have benefited if more of that was fleshed out in a fuller discussion. One sentence of dialogue doesn't do justice to that back story. 38 years old, all those kids, separated from his wife, chasing a woman pushing 50... perhaps it is just too much to explain. In any event, Brazzi trying so diligently to get into Hepburn's pants is weird.

Despite neither being well cast, but had some fine moments. Hepburn really did drum up a bit of vulnerability, not at all her brand. Brazzi was dependably tempting. The whole thing is such a piece from its moment of history, a gay writer (Arthur Laurents) sublimating his own socially forbidden sexuality into the character of a repressed woman. No one must see her romantic activities, so she crosses the ocean to a place where she is unknown to dare the romantic freedom that must not be dared in Akron. When confronted with sex, she resists, succumbs to it, then cuts it off, denying herself happiness and embracing conformity and the social norm. Self-preservation, but she cannot have love. Somehow, this movie tries to make it seem that she made the right choice. Ugh. There is a third way between hopping the train back to Akron and inviting the gigolo up into your boudoir to kill you. We've all been fighting for that balance most of our lives. I didn't enjoy watching Hepburn and Lean and Hollywood tell me to forget about it, you can't be happy. You have to stay in Akron, even if it kills you. She ended her trip early and went back to Akron. She could have gone to Rome. Or Paris. Or Florence. That's just a few hours away. But no. End... It... All! The casting of a super hot younger Italian man as Renato really underscores all of this. Hollywood will always overlook problems if someone is photogenic.

Below is Shirley Booth and Dino Di Luca from the Broadway production. It makes a huge difference to have an older Italian gentleman who we think is also looking for a moment of happiness.

The most interesting thing about this film is the use of Technicolor on location in post-war Venice. How many fuses did they blow doing that? How many delays as the Venetian infrastructure was taxed by all those lighting units?

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by Anonymousreply 155January 1, 2018 1:58 PM

Great review, r155.

I think the character is a realist. There is a balance to strike in love, and she didn't need to leave early, but we all know holiday romances with married men end in tears.

by Anonymousreply 156January 1, 2018 2:32 PM

Brilliant analysis, r155. Thank you.

So much of what you question about the screenplay was Lean's take on the material, and as Hepburn said in the above interviews, everyone (including herself) fell in love or awe with Lean and didn't ever question him.

by Anonymousreply 157January 1, 2018 2:32 PM

Except, R155, she really couldn't have true love with the guy, he really had to stay a fling. I know that's not what you want for the character, but that's realistic, sometimes it's true that Mr. Right isn't there and the best you can hope for is Mr. Right-Now. And yeah, if you wait until middle age to start looking for a man, you're lucky to get that.

But I agree that the character shouldn't have gone home, and I like to think that once she was on the train and had a moment to think, she changed her mind and said "Screw it, I'm going to see Paris while I can!".

by Anonymousreply 158January 1, 2018 5:30 PM

That's not much of an "except," R158. It's a plot device created by Arthur Laurents to make Renato unavailable. It amplifies the thought that Jane Hudson, or Leona Samish, is a substitute for gay men of the time, who also could not marry the men they loved. Or gay women, for that matter. Some were defeated by that, leading to any number of sad endings. Others found ways to build lasting and meaningful relationships without marriage and without all the social reward and approval it brings. This device was included by the writer for some reason. It can reasonably be understood as another reminder that as a gay person of that time, you could find love, but you could not hope to be the equal of the straight couples around you. You might risk and you might dare to reach out, but you will be denied your happiness. You really belong in a straitjacket like... Akron, Ohio.

As for what I want for the character, I only want her to have what she wants. She chose Akron. Fine by me. She can turn to dust there, for all I care. I do care about this story being an allegory for closeted gay life in a repressive era. The message conveyed is problematic, coming as it does from a particular writer with a particular background, written at a particular time. All of that has to inform his thinking to some degree. Tennessee Williams is often thought to have done much the same thing. One can imagine there's a lot of his experience in that of Alexandra del Lago and Chance Wayne. I wish we had much more genuine examination of gay people and gay concerns from some important gay writers who had no choice but to write in code, or face never being published or produced. I wish they had been, and felt, free enough to do that. But before being too hard on Arthur Laurents, I wish I had seen the original production of his play. That one production still linked above makes it clear that some very elements of the story were handled differently than they were in the movie. Laurents' message might have been more affirming. But maybe not. And I don't have a copy to re-read on New Year's Day.

by Anonymousreply 159January 1, 2018 6:40 PM

Arthur Laurents would kill you, r159, for even suggesting that his straight female character was code for a gay male character. He was always proud of the fact that he was an out gay man in Hollywood and on Broadway from the moment his career began during WWII.

I'm sure he would insist that if he wanted to write about a gay man, he would have. I don't mean to sound so defensive about Laurents, he was well-known to be a bullying creep, but Summertime, after all, is not The Time of the Cuckoo and it's unfair to make assessments about Laurents based on anything in the film, which he essentially disowned.

Edward Albee also always denied that George and Martha in Virginia Woolf were stand-ins for a gay couple.

by Anonymousreply 160January 1, 2018 9:25 PM

R152, you make me laugh. Are you under 40?

by Anonymousreply 161January 1, 2018 11:33 PM

Glad I made you laugh, R161. Over 40, but not by much.

by Anonymousreply 162January 2, 2018 12:28 AM

"That's not much of an "except," [R158]. It's a plot device created by Arthur Laurents to make Renato unavailable. "

But R159, a middle-aged single woman who went to Italy in the 1950s would actually find that yes, the vast majority of men were unavailable! Divorce was either illegal or socially unacceptable, the social pressure for men to marry was intense, and a much higher proportion of men joined the "celibate" priesthood than back home in Ohio - and that's just the straight ones! But cheating on the wife you'd never leave was tacitly allowed, so an attractive woman of middle years who went looking for romance at that time and place would meet nobody but married men who were tired of their wives.

So really, the film works both ways - as a metaphor for the isolation of the closet, and as the realistic story of an aging single woman. And it works bet without the standard happy ending.

by Anonymousreply 163January 2, 2018 3:19 AM

The film is a very different piece of work from the play, which is why Laurents disassociated himself from it when his screenplay was rejected. The film has its many charms but the The Time of the Cuckoo with Shirley Booth was better.

by Anonymousreply 164January 2, 2018 3:34 AM

R163, I think you got it.

Anyone ever hear recordings of Booth from her musicals? Charming. Wasn't she in the original production of "The Philadelphia Story"with Hepburn (Ruth Hussey in the movie)? Also she was in the play "Desk Set."

A follow up to "Summertime": "Whatever Happened to Jane Hudson?"

by Anonymousreply 165January 2, 2018 3:44 AM

R165, your comments raise one of my most frequent questions: Why did Booth never do Hello, Dolly!? She was the perfect Dolly, as the film of Wilder's The Matchmaker reveals, and she could more than carry a tune as her many Broadway musicals reveals. What happened?

by Anonymousreply 166January 2, 2018 4:20 AM

Perhaps she had the same attitude as Roz when she was originally offered the role of Mame in Jerry Herman's musical?

"I don't eat yesterday's stew."

Herman wrote the part for Judy Garland, who was almost a replacement but couldn't get insured.

by Anonymousreply 167January 2, 2018 4:37 AM

R166, good question. She was a bit on in years already in 65 (?). Doesn't the show need a "belter?" I'm not sure if she could do that. Possibly,she was in that "Hazel" TV show. She was great in The Matchmaker.

by Anonymousreply 168January 2, 2018 7:23 AM

The filmed a scene where Kate was blowing Italian boys in an alleyway because she had acquired the taste back home, but it was cut.

by Anonymousreply 169January 2, 2018 7:41 AM

It's a good point that if Renato was a 49 or even 59 instead of 39, him aggressively courting Kate would make more sense on screen.

Otherwise they had chemistry, he is a total fox and she really was very good,

by Anonymousreply 170January 2, 2018 1:03 PM

wasnt she one of the lesbians in that Bowers book who hired young gals from him?

fresh as a summertime breeze....

by Anonymousreply 171January 2, 2018 1:05 PM

I always assumed David Lean was gay himself. Was he?

by Anonymousreply 172January 2, 2018 1:35 PM

No, Lean was straight.

by Anonymousreply 173January 2, 2018 1:43 PM

R172 That's SIR David Lean to you. And he was a notorious pussyhound. Apparently he bedded more than 1000 women and was married six times.

Perhaps you mistook him for John Ford (another director famous for his male-driven movies) who really was a closet case. Maureen O'Hara caught him smooching with one of his stars once.

by Anonymousreply 174January 2, 2018 1:44 PM

I was sure Lean was gay! Well you learn something new everyday. Thanks DL!

by Anonymousreply 175January 2, 2018 1:52 PM

You all must watch David Lean's film version of Blithe Spirit! Very stage bound but glorious color.

by Anonymousreply 176January 2, 2018 1:59 PM

I don't get why your all so hung up on how young he was in relation to her...they look about the same age anyway so I don't see what yr all complaining about

by Anonymousreply 177January 2, 2018 5:12 PM

I wonder what Summertime would've been like with Bette Davis instead of Hepburn.

by Anonymousreply 178January 2, 2018 6:54 PM

Bette would have had to film Summertime in the 1930s. She looked to old and harsh after that.

by Anonymousreply 179January 2, 2018 6:59 PM

^ David Lean would have refused to waste his time with that ill-behaved, middle-aged brat.

William Wyler was the only man capable of controlling her selfishness.

by Anonymousreply 180January 2, 2018 7:06 PM

r179 and after 1951 -1952 too fat.

by Anonymousreply 181January 2, 2018 7:08 PM

If Lean had cast Esther Williams, he really could have made something of that canal business. Missed opportunity.

by Anonymousreply 182January 2, 2018 8:06 PM

You know why this hot Italian daddy zeroed in on Kate Hepburn, even though she was older than he was and had tragic hair?

Because so few women traveled alone back then, that's why.

So say he can't stand another night home alone or with his wife (I forget if he lived with her), so he goes down to the plaza to look for some pussy. He looks around and sees all the Venitians he's known all his life and whom he's already fucked if they're fuckable, he sees tourist families and couples, he sees groups of chattering women traveling together, and he sees one woman sitting at a table alone and she's silently telling the world that she wishes she had someone to share this moment with. He's been doing this long enough to know that look means he could get laid, and he eyes her. Tragic hair to be sure, but she's slim and has a good figure, the face is a little old but open, attractive, and interesting. Well, he's not going to do better tonight, so...

Like I said above, this film works both as a metaphor for the closet, and as a realistic account of what a straight woman might find in 1950s Italy.

by Anonymousreply 183January 2, 2018 8:48 PM

Oh the film at least is definitely about seduction....her seduction by Venice AND Di Rossi. But they both get what they need from the courtship. Nothing wrong with that.But why at the end does he insist that he loves her?

by Anonymousreply 184January 2, 2018 9:39 PM

Because ending the fling like a gentleman is no different to being charming and courteous as he courted her - it's part of the dance.

by Anonymousreply 185January 2, 2018 10:18 PM

No mention of THIS Leona? Really?

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by Anonymousreply 186January 2, 2018 10:30 PM

[Quote]R186 No mention of THIS Leona? Really?

As shocking as seeing your mother drunk...

by Anonymousreply 187January 2, 2018 10:48 PM

For the life of me, I don't know who that woman in the red dress is! Please tell me.

I did recognize Carol Lawrence as the lovely signora.

by Anonymousreply 188January 3, 2018 2:29 AM

Alyson Reed

by Anonymousreply 189January 3, 2018 4:07 AM

R187 For the life of me, I don't know who that woman in the red dress is! Please tell me.

I saw this production at the Pasadena Playhouse. The drawback was the guy who played the Italian...he was fine, but I don't remember him. He really is such an important element in the story....the impetus, or what have you. Rossano Brazzi has such gravitas and character (plus good looks), he just fills out that character immediately. This other performer didn't do that.

The best number was a lovely ensemble number I've never heard (unlike the title song), called MOON IN MY WINDOW. It isn't on youtube...it was really pretty.

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by Anonymousreply 190January 3, 2018 5:37 AM

OMG Not Sondheim AGAIN!

by Anonymousreply 191January 3, 2018 5:42 AM

The Broadway cast CD with Elizabeth Allen is much better than the Pasadena one.

And “Everybody Loves Leona” is a real stinker of a song. It’s right that it was dropped on the road originally.

by Anonymousreply 192January 3, 2018 7:23 AM

R91

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by Anonymousreply 193January 3, 2018 7:27 AM

Did Hepburn have work done in the late 1930s? Post 1938, she looks different. Before then, she had a masculine horsiness to her face and features. After, she looked different, beautiful even...

by Anonymousreply 194January 3, 2018 7:55 AM

[quote]R194 Post 1938, she looks different. Before then, she had a masculine horsiness to her face and features. After, she looked different, beautiful even...

It might be that with THE PHILADELPHIA STORY (1940), she switched over to working for MGM, which was a lux studio that photographed its stars more carefully.

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by Anonymousreply 195January 3, 2018 8:02 AM

Yes, we agree. Hepburn's transformation to Glamour Girl was all due to the supreme wizardry of MGM. Honestly, if you look at candid photos of her off the set, even the famous MGM anniversary event, she looks quite ordinary.

by Anonymousreply 196January 3, 2018 12:44 PM

Ordinary? Ordinary with extraordinary bone structure.

by Anonymousreply 197January 3, 2018 1:21 PM

Speaking of Hepburn's hair in this movie, I'm surprised no one has mentioned this hilarious scene yet - before she has her big rendezvous with Brazzi her character visits a beauty parlour and is seen getting everything from her nails to her hair done. Of course we expect her to re-emerge from the salon completely transformed but she comes out looking exactly the same, with the exact same messy hairdo. I wonder if Lean avoided one of those classic moth-into-butterfly moments here on purpose or if they all actually thought Hepburn looked good with hairdo like that?

She should come of

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by Anonymousreply 198January 3, 2018 3:53 PM

This is the more youthful hairdo that looked great on her (but was seen in only one scene) but as someone else pointed up above, let-down hair weren't deemed very classy black then, which is sad because all those great female stars (even those who were still in their 30's) looked really matronly with those awful hairdos.

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by Anonymousreply 199January 3, 2018 3:57 PM

Until the 1920's, it was a right of passage to womanhood for a girl to start wearing her hair up. Judy would have looked SO much better in Meet Me in St. Louis without those industrial strength bangs and it's obvious she isn't used to having long hair in her handling of it. Another example is Bette in Beyond the Forest. The latter was pointed out to me by a friend with long hair who said women with long hair don't grab it and flip it behind their shoulder like Bette did.

by Anonymousreply 200January 3, 2018 7:31 PM

[post redacted because linking to dailymail.co.uk clearly indicates that the poster is either a troll or an idiot (probably both, honestly.) Our advice is that you just ignore this poster but whatever you do, don't click on any link to this putrid rag.]

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by Anonymousreply 201January 3, 2018 10:27 PM

^. That's a good thing R210.

Estelle Thompson lied about her name. She lied about her birthplace. She lied about her ethnicity.

by Anonymousreply 202January 3, 2018 10:33 PM

^. Estelle claimed all records of her birth were destroyed in a fire. In 1978 she even accepted an invitation to visit her birthplace. She mostly hid in her room feigning an illness.

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by Anonymousreply 203January 3, 2018 10:48 PM

[quote]R202 Estelle Thompson lied about her name. She lied about her birthplace. She lied about her ethnicity

I also heard she was a professional call girl when she snared director Alexander Korda , who launched her career (?)

by Anonymousreply 204January 3, 2018 10:51 PM

Why are we talking about Merle Oberon in this thread? Did she fuck David Lean?

by Anonymousreply 205January 3, 2018 11:47 PM

Those short but very curled or permed 1950s hairdos do not date well but they were all the rage back then. Women were liberated after WWII and their short hair, even shorter than 1920s bobs, were a symbol of freedom. It's too bad that teasing and painful rollers returned in the 1960s.

by Anonymousreply 206January 3, 2018 11:50 PM

It was called the poodle cut r206.

by Anonymousreply 207January 4, 2018 12:12 AM

These attacks on Miss Oberon are malicious and unfounded!! Her film career would have been over if it had been discovered that she was Eurasian. She even refused to read for parts calling for yellowface out of fear that her origins would be exposed...you have forced me to take a stand.

I am The Official Merle Oberon Troll, bitches!

by Anonymousreply 208January 4, 2018 2:02 AM

Oberon had a weird, egg-shaped head and an unusually high forehead. It almost looked like she was going bald.

by Anonymousreply 209January 4, 2018 2:13 AM

R208 I'm glad you're the Off-topic Official Merle Oberon Troll.

I have to say she is the direct opposite of On-Topic Kate Hepburn. What you saw is what you got with Kate. Kate played Chinese once in Dragon Seed but she couldn't wear such petty costumes as Estelle/Merle in the 30s and 40s.

I agree with R209 Estelle/Merle had a weird recessive brow (—a lit bit like Bette's).

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by Anonymousreply 210January 4, 2018 2:16 AM

r208 = Robert Wolders

by Anonymousreply 211January 4, 2018 2:20 AM

Merle had a high, aristocratic forehead. She was luscious looking. She loved sex and had her share of it. Even in middle age she was still pulling young dick like Steve Cochran and Rod Taylor.

by Anonymousreply 212January 4, 2018 2:23 AM

R212 The word 'aristocratic' is rather irrelevant for a displaced mulatto like Merle. She chose to enter an industry where a woman's worth is measured in box-office receipts and the ability to keep producers happy.

by Anonymousreply 213January 4, 2018 2:36 AM

Displaced mulatto r213? You are a foul CUNT to post such a comment...shitty thing to post, even for Datalounge!

by Anonymousreply 214January 4, 2018 2:38 AM

Click, click, click, click

by Anonymousreply 215January 4, 2018 2:40 AM

Why don't you idiots start a Merle thread? I'm not interested in half-castes.

by Anonymousreply 216January 4, 2018 2:45 AM

Kate Hepburn is a pure bred.

'There isn't much meat on her but what's there is choice'

by Anonymousreply 217January 4, 2018 2:49 AM

I love that quote about KH. Was that from a movie or did Spencer actually say that in real life?

by Anonymousreply 218January 4, 2018 2:51 AM

R218 I like it too. It shows Spencer Tracy at his most laconic and loving.

And also it was made in the 50s when all females were required to have enormous BOOZOOMS.

I think it was written by Garson Kanin for Tracy in one of the 50s comedies.

by Anonymousreply 219January 4, 2018 2:57 AM

It's from Pat and Mike. Written by Garson Kanin and Ruth Gordon.

by Anonymousreply 220January 4, 2018 3:12 AM

I love Pat and Mike....one of their best movies. Anyone agree?

by Anonymousreply 221January 4, 2018 5:50 PM

[Quote]R271 Kate Hepburn is a pure bred.

Alt Rite code word = Aryan

by Anonymousreply 222January 4, 2018 7:19 PM

R222 = Hater/Self-hater

by Anonymousreply 223January 4, 2018 8:13 PM

I loved the clothes Hepburn wore in the film. I don't know about the hairstyle but I truly envied her overall look. Preppy and perhaps a bit spinsterish but surprisingly elegant. I would wear those dresses right now if I could, but there's a little problem of around 100 extra pounds stopping me. Whoever dressed her did an amazing job. She really looked good.

by Anonymousreply 224January 4, 2018 8:30 PM

This thread is winding down ....

.... so I'm now twitching to get into some more "foul CUNT ..shitty mulatto" gossip about lying Estelle / Merle [R213] ?

by Anonymousreply 225January 4, 2018 10:06 PM

Yeah, start a Merle Oberon thread, where I'll defend her on the grounds that she didn't have a lot of good options. If she'd been honest about her background she wouldn't have been able to work in acting, and if she wanted to work as an actress her only option was to lie.

Hepburn had the luxury of family money and upper-crust background, it gave her the confidence to be forthright and to tell Hollywood that she wasn't toing to take any shit from them because she would be just fine without them, but according to the DL she was also living a live. If she'd come out as lez or bi she wouldn't have been able to work as an actress either! Discrimination and racial typecasting in Hollywood is still rampant and legal, back in the studio days it was absolute. If you didn't play straight you didn't work, and if you weren't white you were lucky to get maid roles, no matter how beautiful and talented you were. So yeah, Hepburn was only blunt and forthright up to a point.

by Anonymousreply 226January 4, 2018 10:39 PM

Since the thread is winding down: several comments above about her being "unmarried". She married young and divorced - but years later. I remembered this and her husband's name from her autobiography "Me". But, I had to look up the dates: 1928-1934. She got a Mexican divorce after the move to Hollywood. She discusses the marriage in "Me". The friend who gave me the book was impressed by the Hepburn-Tracy devotion but disgusted by Tracy's refusal to divorce his wife.

by Anonymousreply 227January 4, 2018 11:01 PM

R224 yes, very elegant and flattering wardrobe. "Summertime" is gorgeous - the color, light, cinematography. Was this her first film in color? I'll have to check - I'm curious now.

by Anonymousreply 228January 4, 2018 11:10 PM

Duh, African Queen (1951) color

by Anonymousreply 229January 4, 2018 11:14 PM

[quote]R227 The friend who gave me the book was impressed by the Hepburn-Tracy devotion but disgusted by Tracy's refusal to divorce his wife.

It's funny how most people see the Tracy/Hepburn affair as being so rarified and romantic. Two little orphan birds against the storm! The truth is she would have eagerly broken up his marriage if he allowed it...but he didn't want to be tied down all over again. He slept with everyone in sight regardless of having a wife AND mistress. Just an alcoholic pig. But....SO romantic!

There was an article in the NY Times after Hepburn's death, profiling how noble she was to stand by Tracy all those years even though he wouldn't marry her, and someone wrote in a letter to the editor saying, [italic] "Gee, if after my spouse dies I find out someone had a decades-long affair with them during our marriage, is the Times going to do a tribute to how noble and loyal and beautiful this outsider was? I hope not!" [/italic]

It made me laugh. Even more so because it was from a guy.

by Anonymousreply 230January 4, 2018 11:15 PM

Why be so sure that Hepburn was eager to marry Tracy? Everything we know about her seems to point to an independent woman who never needed a marriage certificate to prove her worth. I doubt that Kate had any need to marry Spencer Tracy.

I truly think that she was bisexual, and probably by the time she hit middle age, not particularly sexual at all.

But if you look at photos of Kate in her early years in Hollywood, she was clearly testing the boundaries of conventional sexuality by appearing daringly dikey! In that era of liberated pre-Code Hollywood, her attitude and appearance was perhaps even considered sexy and alluring by certain people of power.

by Anonymousreply 231January 5, 2018 1:02 AM

Katharine has said many times she didn't want to get married- to Spencer or anyone, after the first marriage.

She didn't want kids either.

by Anonymousreply 232January 5, 2018 1:08 AM

I don't care whether Miss Hepburn/ Jane Hudson was celibate or not. People of her generation weren't obsessed with romance and sex.

Our own pathetic, sex-obsessed generation is demonstrated in the first line of the OP's post.

by Anonymousreply 233January 5, 2018 1:31 AM

This woman's voice sounds like she might have been Miss Hepburn's neighbour.

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by Anonymousreply 234January 5, 2018 3:34 AM

I like the excitement that her character feels when she arrives in Venice. It reminds me of how I first felt when visiting foreign places. Now after travelling so much in Europe, I know I'm jaded and don't feel that excitement anymore.

by Anonymousreply 235January 5, 2018 3:38 AM

^ Yes, can never recover Lost Innocence. It is the tragedy our lives.

That's why some wealthy mature men of my generation hire young men to suck the innocence from them.

by Anonymousreply 236January 5, 2018 3:42 AM

[quote]R231 Why be so sure that Hepburn was eager to marry Tracy? Everything we know about her seems to point to an independent woman who never needed a marriage certificate to prove her worth. I doubt that Kate had any need to marry Spencer Tracy.

But I presume breaking up his marriage would have allowed them to travel, dine, vacation etc. in public together, or at least let her attend his funeral.

by Anonymousreply 237January 5, 2018 3:42 AM

They were friends. Good friends. And a great screen team. But that's all. She was a dyke and he was her beard. In return, she provided to him cover for all of his screwing around. It worked for them, personally and professionally, in a town and at a time where sexual impropriety could end their careers. As long as they hid behind this purported romance, they could do what they wanted and their careers were spared.

by Anonymousreply 238January 5, 2018 4:14 AM

This was *the* short hairstyle before the 60s beehive sent us back to the salon. You had to be as beautiful as myself, Audrey Hepburn or Elizabeth Taylor to pull it off.

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by Anonymousreply 239January 5, 2018 1:40 PM

I've yet to see a hairstyle you couldn't rock Soph.

by Anonymousreply 240January 5, 2018 3:33 PM

Except that the Italian ladies like Loren, Gina Lollobrigida and Anna Magnani understood that the style had to look windblown like it was set with an egg-beater.

by Anonymousreply 241January 6, 2018 3:31 PM

Oh, I don't look too bad, do I?

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by Anonymousreply 242January 6, 2018 4:16 PM

No one rocked a tousled, bed-hair crop with the same insouciance as me.

It took hours of setting by a team of stylists to achieve.

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by Anonymousreply 243January 6, 2018 4:22 PM

Yeah, those 1950s short cuts only looked sexy when they were windblown, but most American women aspired to get them perfectly controlled and matronly. Hepburn could certainly have carried off the fifties short hairdo, she looked good with shorter hair and god knows her hair was naturally windblown! But by then, she grew her hair out for some reason.

Incidentally, I found a picture of Audrey Hepburn getting her short hair put into that seemingly artless short style.

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by Anonymousreply 244January 6, 2018 8:05 PM

Her looks aside (and it is Rossano's silver youth that is more the issue, I think she looks the part), I am not a fan and Summertime has one of her best performances. Certainly superior to Guess Who's Coming To Dinner and On Golden Pond.

by Anonymousreply 245January 7, 2018 11:50 AM

I'm surprised there haven't more (or any?) comments about The Rainmaker here. Wasn't that film and Kate's performance really more or less a retread of Summertime set in the Dustbowl? Is he too old to be playing spinster Lizzie?

by Anonymousreply 246January 7, 2018 2:49 PM

No one is commenting on "The Rainmaker" because it is such a stilted film, practically unwatchable today. It is irrevocably tied to a style of film making that has rightly been pushed aside. There are moments in it that are terrific and actors who are always memorable. But the film is, nowadays, a tough slog. And Hepburn is not particularly well cast in it. In Summertime, we get a bit of vulnerability from her, but it's still just a crack in her indomitable shell, where we should see a timid woman who just musters enough courage to make this trip. It's backwards. Anytime Hepburn is cast as a vulnerable character, it all comes out backwards. Give her a high riding bitch to play, and she has no equal.

by Anonymousreply 247January 7, 2018 2:56 PM

Does anyone else think Brazzi looked a lot like younger Jeremy Northam? I watched The Net on TV today and was immediately reminded of this thread.

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by Anonymousreply 248January 8, 2018 10:27 PM

One could fairly compare Lancaster to Arnold Schwarzenegger, both of whom were jocks who took up acting as a second career with no real training.

Unlike Schwarzenegger, Lancaster really got into acting and became a very good actor, he got better as he went along. Schwarzenegger was always a STAR and never an actor, although the language barrier may have had an effect there.

by Anonymousreply 249January 9, 2018 4:16 AM

[quote] I love Pat and Mike....one of their best movies. Anyone agree?

Sorry, can't really agree on that one. It's certainly not among the worst films they've made together (and they sure made plenty of stinkers in the 1940's) but the whole film felt like some sort of a vanity project to me, with Hepburn trying to show us what a great athlete she really was.

by Anonymousreply 250January 9, 2018 5:18 AM

What was the best Tracy and Hepburn movie?

by Anonymousreply 251January 26, 2018 5:27 PM

Though I have no doubt that Hepburn was sexually dubious she always had longer hair that she wore up. She had that thin skin so typical for reddies that doesn't age well when exposed to lots of sunlight and she was an outdoors girl.

by Anonymousreply 252January 26, 2018 5:33 PM

I ask again what was the best Tracy Hepburn movie?

by Anonymousreply 253January 26, 2018 5:47 PM

R253 Adam's Rib, duh!

by Anonymousreply 254January 26, 2018 5:48 PM

Hepburn was a lesbian who apparently had a few affairs with men during her younger days. Her relationship with Tracy was always platonic, as Tracy was alcoholic and only could get it up for young men when drunk, which was all the time outside work. Much of their relationship was played up for the fans and film magazines. It helped both their careers, and hid their own sexual proclivities.

She professed to being devoted to him, and perhaps in her mind she was. However, her career always came first, just like any other successful actress who lasted a long time. Davis, Stanwyck and Crawford all had the same overpowering drive to succeed with little time or ability to put into their personal relationships.

by Anonymousreply 255January 26, 2018 6:21 PM

I think "The Rainmaker" is a lovely film. It's a film about make believe, so appropriately recalls its stage origins. Lancaster's athleticism is nicely used. And Hepburn is very touching.

by Anonymousreply 256January 28, 2018 10:38 AM

I don't know what kind of relationship they had, but Kate did take a 5 year break from acting to babysit him. There must have been something there.

by Anonymousreply 257January 28, 2018 2:10 PM

I think "Guess Who's Coming to Dinner" was their best movie.

by Anonymousreply 258September 17, 2018 11:27 PM

I love hair, R57, so keep talking.

by Anonymousreply 259September 17, 2018 11:56 PM

DL Film Festival should feature SUMMERTIME.

by Anonymousreply 260February 21, 2019 9:09 PM
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