As an eldergay, I sort of miss the "taboo" days before homosexuality went mainstream.

Geez, how many times have you started this bullshit thread? You're old. You miss being young. You're conflating youth with homophobia. AND you're a troll.

Dumbass.

I can see where you are coming from, OP. I kinda miss those days too, though for me, it was the late 80s and 90s. It WAS fun going to gay bars, getting to know people, having your own clique of friends who were practically family, and having legitimate gay bookstores, and lots of magazines, and even local newspapers dedicated to gay men, with personals in the ad pages! These days it seems gay life is limited to a very few friends, and 99% internet based. Seems like most of the younger kids spend all their time browsing the internet while waiting for someone to initiate contact on Grindr and other apps. One guy told me he has three apps open simultaneously.

Yes.

I loved heading to the gay clubs in the late 90s early 2000s. I actually experienced less homophobia then as opposed today.

[quote]I loved heading to the gay clubs in the late 90s early 2000s.

This may be way passed taboo days though.

I agree with OP. R1 is an idiot. Of course, there were lots of bad things back then but the feeling of being a secret club, like you said, was really exciting. That's gone now.

OP...

No - I hated it. Those places gave me the creeps. I love the liberation of now.

Seasoned guys? Run!

I don't miss it. I just wish we had more and better gay men to choose from.

Here you go OP---

R1 is a nutcake and deserves to be blocked. I'm younger than some of you, so I wouldn't have had some of these experiences. Looking at it through the lens of history, it has seemed to me for a long time that many people just got caught up in the whirlwind of acceptance of others and didn't realize what they were giving up for that. Somewhere between the demand to be treated as human beings who could walk down the street at night without being beaten, raped or murdered for who/what they were and mainstream acculturation/appreciation, some things were lost or became too homogeneous and commonplace.

I imagine gay people in countries where homosexuality is still illegal would enjoy the luxury of such hindsight, OP.

....

I was a kid in the 1980s and a teen in the 1990s so I'm glad we can be open about being gay. But I really do think it was better when it was just gays, lesbians and bisexuals.

You are not alone, OP.

I think gay culture has gotten worse. Grindr is anti-social. You don't meet many people, you don't converse, you don't make platonic friends and you don't dance.

I never got to experience the heydays of the '70s. But now I thank God I got to experience authentic, gay cruising culture in the late '90s — even under the specter of AIDS.

I got to hang out, meet lots of interesting people -- street kids and hustlers in cruising spots. Friends from college for drinks and dancing. Public parks, gyms and restrooms were AWESOME hotbeds where you could have sex with HOTTIES any time of the day.

People would actually have to show up, IN PERSON, instead of catfishing you on Grindr. You hooked up with SOMEBODY because you all went to the trouble to go out. Now people don't even go out unless they get an offer from Channing Tatum online.

I got to experience bathhouses when hot guys went there; porno theaters and adult bookstores when they were always packed -- and packing.

And then I watched the internet take it all away.

The history books say men were cruising since the dawn of civilization. Accounts and art from Babylon, ancient Greece and Rome prove that the earliest cities had streets, temples, public parks, gyms and bathhouses where men would cruise to have sex with men.

Practically an unbroken chain of men having sex with men in big cities for 7,000 years disappeared in the five years between gay.com, Facebook and Grindr.

It's a shocking cultural upheaval -- a culture gone extinct.

Thank God I was there for the last hurrah. I had so much fucking fun. On my knees surrounded by 6-7 HOT and OK guys fucking my face bukkake style or joining 2-3 hot guys running a train on a hot bottom.

The planets don't align like that frequently through the internet.

What you see in pics is NOT what you get.

I also planned my entire future as a sexual libertine and an outlaw.

Now I'm supposed to settle down, get married and have kids like the basic fucking breeders. I can't just be slutty and free my whole life without shame from a different corner.

Thats my corner, R16. We live in a home in suburbia. Been together so long that the home is paid off.

We met at church when you were doing the bukkake in some bath house.

Nanny nanny. I win.

Now that gay marriage is legal, who shows gay men how to be good husbands?

Thank you for your excellent perspective R16. Modern app culture has ruined gay society. I'm going to toss in a bit of opprobrium for Millennials here as well, who seem to be the main perps of online nastiness. (I'm GenX).

Just this weekend I talked online with a guy I've spoken with a few times these past months. We've talked about meeting. We seem compatible in a general way. Of course, you never know until you actually spend some time with somebody, and you can't do that on a freaking app.

So we talk about getting together. He seems interested. But then he sends me a message. "Do you have any more pics?" I have 3 pics on my profile, all clothed, showing my body shape and face. I tell him "No, I don't." He says "You have a camera on your phone, don't you?"

He is being demanding and rude and excessively distrustful. He also failed to recognize that the app won't let me send him a pic - it has to be added to my profile first - he is asking me to create a self-marketing portfolio for him. He's not going to know if he's interested in me until we meet because that's reality. I'm already not interested, because he says he wants to make friends, but all he cares about is if I have a 4th and maybe a 5th pic. I told him I was no longer interested in talking to him. In a moment he turned a pleasant introduction into a paranoid ordeal.

In the early days of the internet - really up until 2010 or so - it was a lot easier to meet people online and get laid and even make an occasional friend. Then people started getting pic-obsessed, and all too ready to be the first to reject somebody over some perceived imperfection. The friendly people are gone. Now it's hustlers and methheads. Craigslist is a disaster.

So now when I'm horny enough I go to a bookstore or bathhouse where I score nearly every time. My city has about 15 bookstores and 2 bathhouses, which, after a lull around 2005-2010, are doing great business, according to the staff and managers I've talked to. There are a lot of guys out there as fed up as I am with the futility of meeting through apps.

I'll tell you this....and ANYONE who lived through it will back me up for sure: NYC during the 1970s was a gay man's paradise. Nothing today can compare.

Of course it all came crashing down with the AIDS crisis... but oh what a time...

The 1970s were a paradise for nearly everyone, but I do get your point R20.

Every time one of the millennial twats here calls me old/elder I think to myself, "well I got to experience the 70s when it was anything goes and even the Republicans weren't complete assholes, and you my friend will never know that world."

OP, r20, and R21 I am right there with you. A shame that some of these millennial twats are such ignorant, self centered, online- centric bitches. A shame for them. I am glad they never got to experience what we did. They wouldn't have known what to do with it. Ha!

And as homosexuality becomes more "accepted" gay culture gets more and more mundane. The big gay film they're currently creaming over is about two gay pig farmers.

R1 You're a mean one, but I'll give you a pass since you're obviously afflicted with some sort of mental disorder. There are people that can help you- you don't have to suffer alone. Merry Christmas and Get well soon!

R19 - so you are a Gen X Eldergay (as old as 56) and you are pissed off that a Millennial (who could be as young as 19) is requesting another photo of you, after saying hi a few times over the past few months?

R21 I totally agee, I feel a little sorry for them. Time is on their side but the only memories they will have will be social media and sitting at Starbucks with their heads buried in their phones. Their social skills are so bad that they're afraid to even look at each other. Hell, they can't express an opinion without using a search engine to Google how they feel.

R21 I totally agee, I feel a little sorry for them. Time is on their side but the only memories they will have will be social media and sitting at Starbucks with their heads buried in their phones. Their social skills are so bad that they're afraid to even look at each other. Hell, they can't express an opinion without using a search engine to Google how they feel.

R21 I totally agee, I feel a little sorry for them. Time is on their side but the only memories they will have will be social media and sitting at Starbucks with their heads buried in their phones. Their social skills are so bad that they're afraid to even look at each other. Hell, they can't express an opinion without using a search engine to Google how they feel.

R21 I totally agee, I feel a little sorry for them. Time is on their side but the only memories they will have will be social media and sitting at Starbucks with their heads buried in their phones. Their social skills are so bad that they're afraid to even look at each other. Hell, they can't express an opinion without using a search engine to Google how they feel.

R21 I totally agee, I feel a little sorry for them. Time is on their side but the only memories they will have will be social media and sitting at Starbucks with their heads buried in their phones. Their social skills are so bad that they're afraid to even look at each other. Hell, they can't express an opinion without using a search engine to Google how they feel.

R21 I totally agee, I feel a little sorry for them. Time is on their side but the only memories they will have will be social media and sitting at Starbucks with their heads buried in their phones. Their social skills are so bad that they're afraid to even look at each other. Hell, they can't express an opinion without using a search engine to Google how they feel.

R21 I totally agee, I feel a little sorry for them. Time is on their side but the only memories they will have will be social media and sitting at Starbucks with their heads buried in their phones. Their social skills are so bad that they're afraid to even look at each other. Hell, they can't express an opinion without using a search engine to Google how they feel.

R21 I totally agee, I feel a little sorry for them. Time is on their side but the only memories they will have will be social media and sitting at Starbucks with their heads buried in their phones. Their social skills are so bad that they're afraid to even look at each other. Hell, they can't express an opinion without using a search engine to Google how they feel.

R21 I totally agee, I feel a little sorry for them. Time is on their side but the only memories they will have will be social media and sitting at Starbucks with their heads buried in their phones. Their social skills are so bad that they're afraid to even look at each other. Hell, they can't express an opinion without using a search engine to Google how they feel.

R21 I totally agee, I feel a little sorry for them. Time is on their side but the only memories they will have will be social media and sitting at Starbucks with their heads buried in their phones. Their social skills are so bad that they're afraid to even look at each other. Hell, they can't express an opinion without using a search engine to Google how they feel.

R21 I totally agee, I feel a little sorry for them. Time is on their side but the only memories they will have will be social media and sitting at Starbucks with their heads buried in their phones. Their social skills are so bad that they're afraid to even look at each other. Hell, they can't express an opinion without using a search engine to Google how they feel.

R21 I totally agee, I feel a little sorry for them. Time is on their side but the only memories they will have will be social media and sitting at Starbucks with their heads buried in their phones. Their social skills are so bad that they're afraid to even look at each other. Hell, they can't express an opinion without using a search engine to Google how they feel.

R21 I totally agee, I feel a little sorry for them. Time is on their side but the only memories they will have will be social media and sitting at Starbucks with their heads buried in their phones. Their social skills are so bad that they're afraid to even look at each other. Hell, they can't express an opinion without using a search engine to Google how they feel.

R21 I totally agee, I feel a little sorry for them. Time is on their side but the only memories they will have will be social media and sitting at Starbucks with their heads buried in their phones. Their social skills are so bad that they're afraid to even look at each other. Hell, they can't express an opinion without using a search engine to Google how they feel.

R21 I totally agee, I feel a little sorry for them. Time is on their side but the only memories they will have will be social media and sitting at Starbucks with their heads buried in their phones. Their social skills are so bad that they're afraid to even look at each other. Hell, they can't express an opinion without using a search engine to Google how they feel.

R21 I totally agee, I feel a little sorry for them. Time is on their side but the only memories they will have will be social media and sitting at Starbucks with their heads buried in their phones. Their social skills are so bad that they're afraid to even look at each other. Hell, they can't express an opinion without using a search engine to Google how they feel.

R21 I totally agee, I feel a little sorry for them. Time is on their side but the only memories they will have will be social media and sitting at Starbucks with their heads buried in their phones. Their social skills are so bad that they're afraid to even look at each other. Hell, they can't express an opinion without using a search engine to Google how they feel.

R21 I totally agee, I feel a little sorry for them. Time is on their side but the only memories they will have will be social media and sitting at Starbucks with their heads buried in their phones. Their social skills are so bad that they're afraid to even look at each other. Hell, they can't express an opinion without using a search engine to Google how they feel.

R21 I totally agee, I feel a little sorry for them. Time is on their side but the only memories they will have will be social media and sitting at Starbucks with their heads buried in their phones. Their social skills are so bad that they're afraid to even look at each other. Hell, they can't express an opinion without using a search engine to Google how they feel.

R21 I totally agee, I feel a little sorry for them. Time is on their side but the only memories they will have will be social media and sitting at Starbucks with their heads buried in their phones. Their social skills are so bad that they're afraid to even look at each other. Hell, they can't express an opinion without using a search engine to Google how they feel.

Check out the Aspie troll.

Thinking that "back then" was better than now is a sure sign of elderly dotage. I'm sure your Metamucil isn't as tasty as the drinks back in the 19xxs, but the twinks of today aren't drinking Metamucil like you are, are they? They can catalog-shop a hot guy in about three minutes on Grindr and have non-stop sex delivered to their doors quicker than pizza. That will make for some wonderful memories in 50 years.

R47 I get it, you can't relate to my post. I wouldn't expect you too because you're too young , but It really wasn't directed toward young people. Why are you so bitter toward older guys. Were you molested by your grandfather? Free advice: Purge the hatred from your heart and enjoy your youth, it passes very quickly. Merry Christmas

[quote]They can catalog-shop a hot guy in about three minutes on Grindr and have non-stop sex delivered to their doors quicker than pizza.

And that's why gay life was so much better in the 1970s. You summed things up quite nicely.

R47 I know, right? Getting dressed and leaving mom's basement is so haarrd! Especially when the bitch only lets me use the car on Tuesdays! That cunt promised me a car for my 30th birthday and i'm still walking 3 years later. I'll never get a real boyfriend- and if I did, what if he like wanted to talk and junk! Cause talking is so haarrd! Oh well, at least I can call Dial-A-Dick. Wait, no service? "Mommmm, you forgot to pay my fucking phone bill again!" Fuck this shit!!!

The "new" Will & Grace did a great episode where Will and Jack had to come to terms with the fact that they were now considered Daddy's (ElderGays ) They both had dates millennials. Both dates were epic disasters. The episode shed some light on the reality of things today. Especially Will's speech to his date. Bravo Will!

Well, OP, as a fellow eldergay, I get what you're saying about that feeling of being in a secret society. But I don't miss being targeted by the cops, or being openly harassed in the workplace. And I grieve for all the men and women who died without the opportunity to have a legal marriage with their partners.

Most of the guys you had sex with in the 70s are dead. And not from old age. You all sound like my gran.

[quote]Somewhere between the demand to be treated as human beings who could walk down the street at night without being beaten, raped or murdered for who/what they

Yeah, as a fellow eldergay, I also miss being beaten, raped and murdered for being who I am.

I'm probably older than a great many on this thread, but not so old that I can see that many of you are idiots.

What exactly is stopping you from joining/creating social milieus in which you feel comfortable and happy?

Seasoned gay here. Those of you pining for the days of secrecy and shame are nuts. It was awful.

[quote] The big gay film they're currently creaming over is about two gay pig farmers.

As opposed to the many and varied depictions of gays in cinema and television back in the seventies.

[quote]And as homosexuality becomes more "accepted" gay culture gets more and more mundane. The big gay film they're currently creaming over is about two gay pig farmers.

When will we get an animated parody about two gay pigs?

R51, you're part of the problem for fetishizing and enabling that horrid relic of 1990s minstrelsy.

In fact, stop watching NBC altogether.

R26 what was that? Your phone crapped out.

R22 before you hurl any more vitriol you might try living out in this world for a hot minute first. If everyone’s avoidant, well, maybe they’ve got a reason to be, hon.

R25, I didn't make some points clear. I'm an X-er and the guy I was talking to is barely a Millennial. I'll go with the Pew definition of Gex X, 1965 to 1976. I was born in 1974 and if the guy's profile age is accurate he was born in 1977. We are both in our early 40s.

Nobody is pining for the days of discrimination and bashing. They are pining, like all nostalgia, for the good without the bad. They're pining for the strong social ties and camaraderie, which have evaporated, not just for gays, but for most people.

These bad social habits have infiltrated all age groups, but they seem to me to have ramped up as the Millennials and Ys got into the dating scene in a big way. Nobody wants to talk on the phone, even if it's easier and faster. It's difficult to socialize because many people don't do so anymore - if you arrange something, they won't show. You can't plan because they won't commit. When they are in places where they could socialize, they're staring at their phones.

You can't determine somebody's essential qualities through pics on an app. If you are using stats to determine who is worth getting with, you're using poor judgment. People who rely on pics and apps are missing out (and most of them are missing out as stats show this generation is having less sex than any in the past 100 years). Because apps don't work for their stated purpose - they're a lie. Millennials and later : Your great-grandparents were getting more tail than you are. Why is that?

Even in the days where I used BBSes and gay.com, there was usually some chit-chat, however brief, and then it led to a meeting - quickly if the goal was to have sex. Why didn't we demand endless photographic evidence then? The pic-whoring didn't become a thing until the phone apps (Grindr et al.) arrived.

What is the hesitation with guys now? The hesitation to talk, the hesitation to meet? Probably because beating off to porn is the easiest thing to do. The other negative app outcome that hardly anybody has mentioned here is that there seems to be an increase in prostitution, with Boomers demanding sex for consideration with people their children's age. And younger guys are obsessively looking for daddies online. This is not the stuff of social bonding. The only relationships people are comfortable arranging now are commodified, tit-for-tat and mercenary.

It's a mess and you're foolish for not being chagrined over this state of affairs. A previous generation would have considered the situation critically and carefully.

Boomers cannot croak soon enough!

Fortunately, Trump's tax plan and the repeal of Medicare and ACA will help expedite that!

R61 - Very insightful and sadly too true. R62 - You're an ass.

R62 Was raped by Grandpa- feels guilty because he liked it and begged for more.

My feeling is that all the gains of the last couple decades are tentative, transitory -- they can all be reversed in the blink of an eye under the right political circumstances. We are still a largely despised and at the least, distrusted, minority. Tolerance for homosexualtiy runs in cycles and always has.

I'm nostalgic for when that shitty stealth homophobic NBC minstrel show didn't exist.

It's important for gay men to get together en masse. See each other, hear each other.

The bars closed and that seems all gone now.

I think it's largely the sense of community that's missed and that's diminished for everyone, not just the gays. I have to agree, though - it was some wild, adventurous fun. You make some great points, r61. I actually feel a little sorry for young people today.

[quote]It's important for gay men to get together en masse. See each other, hear each other. The bars closed and that seems all gone now.

Please. In WeHo the bars are open for hours after the weed dispensaries close. San Francisco, too.

Maybe we need to build gay social gatherings around something besides alcohol.

[quote]As an eldergay, I sort of miss the "taboo" days before homosexuality went mainstream.

Well, I think we are in a backlash that will get worse and worse and people will go back into the closet to survive. So some of that retro stuff could come back.

Excellent post R61. The attitude of some of the millennials here is sad. Even sadder is they just won't "get" what you stated so eloquently....they have no point of reference and seem to be one of the first generations to lack the age old premise that in order to understand the present, we must look at the past. As a college professor, I have seen this millennial mindset repeatedly in academic terms. It is almost an utter refusal to learn and certainly indicative of disrespect for those who came before them. It is their way or the highway. If they can Google it, it must be true. Academia is one thing, but the fact that they hurl hate towards those of us fondly remembering community, friendship, acceptance, and real love between men is a tragedy.

[quote]Well, I think we are in a backlash that will get worse and worse and people will go back into the closet to survive. So some of that retro stuff could come back.

I'd rather become a shut-in altogether than go back in the closet. Make the breeders go in the closet and stay there. It's the least they can do as payback for all the shit they've done to us and are still doing.

[quote]They are pining, like all nostalgia, for the good without the bad.

But that's the thing: sometimes the good grew out of the bad. Nostalgia takes that and puts it into a different context, like taking a rose that grew out of the ground and putting it in a vase. It needs water and light or it will die.

R71 Don't forget that the prefrontal cortex - the neurological center of empathy, impulse control, reflection, and insight to name a few- does not fully develop until the age of 26. And the complete reliance on electronic communication and the lack of experience with real social and life skills can further delay the its development.

I miss those days too. Back in the day, there was a stronger sense of unity because we all faced risk-legal and medical. The porn theaters, adult bookstores, baths, bars were where one learned quite a bit about gaiety. To me, the sex with wandering trade was fun, but the people I valued were the older lgbts who knew so much. We were “family” or “in the life.”

I came out right around the time everything started to change. It seems like there were a lot of trade-offs. But now that gays can get married pretty much anywhere in the USA I think there are going to be some good changes coming to gay culture in the long-term, but they're not going to happen overnight and they're not going to happen without a lot of work on our part.

I miss those days too. I feel like some sort of gay "Zelig." I was there at the first gay pride march where we had a real sense of camaraderie back in 1970. I came out to my folks in 1971. I used to hang out on Christopher Street when it was an all night cruise fest. I'd park my car on the corner of Christopher and Bleecker and stay out all night. I miss the early NYC clubs like Sanctuary (in a church!), David's Loft (RIP David Mancuso), the Limelight (the first one on 7th Ave So.), the Tenth Floor and Le Jardin (the inspiration for Studio 54). I took off on a hitchhiking trip across country in 1972 and met gay people living in small towns. I lived in San Francisco when Milk and Moscone were murdered by Dan White and I marched down Market St holding my candle and wondering what would come next. When 2011 came along I was there celebrating gay marriage in NY and now it's the law of the land, after thousands of years of gay men and women being criminalized. It's been amazing to have seen this country come around to accepting and celebrating their gay kids. AIDS was horrible. It was awful to lose most of my friends at the time. But it probably contributed to the equal rights we share today. People watching gay men struggle and die alone under condemnation by the church and government finally became unbearable to the families and friends of those men. And here we are!

OP, I miss the days, too, of real gay sex with real homosexuals. Now it's every goddammed straight guy barging in on it and trying to get in on the action, just to get off and that's all. None of the passion or intimacy. It's just phony gay sex these days and it's trivial and forgettable. Just guys trying to get a sexual outlet who aren't really gay and don't really know how.

Hilarious troll post, R78.

Here you go R57

You miss your youth and you lash out at those who still have it, bemoaning how little they deserve it. This thread is a cliche of aging people from time immemorial.

Gay pig farmers, though! It's quite dispiriting to see the breathless reception all these gay depictions of mundanity receive. Boring culture.

As one who has existed on the edge as an outsider in every aspect of my life and in what I do, I miss the edginess of being in a subculture. It's less interesting to me being closer to the mainstream. I think all change comes from the fringe so losing that place is a loss for me.

Not only did it go "mainstream" but a lot of it was destroyed - from bars, to bookstores, to real gay organizations. The millennials never experienced any of that.

[quote]Yeah, as a fellow eldergay, I also miss being beaten, raped and murdered for being who I am.

Oh, c'mon. I lived out and in the open in the 1970s. The occurrences you describe were very rare and probably no worse than today.

Just a couple of years ago, in Orlando, gays were slaughtered for being who they were.

And it's already been forgotten.

The difference is that now the media actually gives a shit whether we live or die, R85, so they can condition us into mindless consumption just like everybody else.

Fagbashing a gay because he is too feminine is now seen as an evil act. Back in the olden days, it was just another queer being attacked. Thank God things have changed.

I'm glad that things have changed for the better, but that sense of taboo was really an aphrodisiac as well. Kind of a thrill ride to go out into the night and searching for sex in these places. Showing up to work the next morning and thinking, you guys have no idea.

r87 There were plenty of people in "the olden days" who saw that as a horrible thing and there are plenty of people around today who think it's just another queer being attacked.

It's funny--you sound EXACTLY like a group of older Italian immigrants talking about the good old days back in Little Italy when everyone would go to Aunt Carmela's house for Sunday dinner and then hang out at Grimaldi's sausage shop and my Angelo's married to some Irish girl from Milwaukee, she don't even know how to make a gravy for Sundays.

I get the attraction for earlier times and a feeling that it was you against the world, but the 1970s were over 40 years ago. It would be like someone in the 70s pining for the 1930s.

You know what your real problem is though, Eldergays: you don't want to fuck each other.

You spend all your time on Grindr trying to fuck us and complaining when we're not into it. If you would just fuck each other, there would certainly be enough of you to keep gay bars and bathhouses and whatnot open and you'd have plenty of people to hang out with and reminisce with.

[quote][R87] There were plenty of people in "the olden days" who saw that as a horrible thing and there are plenty of people around today who think it's just another q***r being attacked.

And by normalizing that word you give them the power to use it, too, and to embrace all the derogatory and defamatory things it entalis.

Entails

And WTF R61

So you met some guy on Grindr who was nervous or flaky or both.

He's not every guy on Gridr or every Millennial. He's just one guy who played you on a site that's increasingly losing its value as more and more people jump on it for the anonymity and ability to picture trade (versus actually meeting someone). Something new will crop up to take its place shortly.

[quote]You spend all your time on Grindr trying to fuck us and complaining when we're not into it. If you would just fuck each other, there would certainly be enough of you to keep gay bars and bathhouses and whatnot open and you'd have plenty of people to hang out with and reminisce with.

You think we were never in your position? We were never young like you (say you are) and being hit on by men twice our age? It happens. I think if I came across you in a bar (or bathhouse) your attitude would give you away and I'd steer clear of you. As for me, I hope I was diplomatic enough to be kind to older guys who came on to me when I wasn't interested. And I think I deserve the same from people like you.

The gay pride events had a feeling and a purpose, back in those days. Now they're just a drunken party with corporate sponsors.

And it goes without saying, doesn't it R90, that if it weren't for us "Eldergays" and the gay lib movement of the early 70s you wouldn't enjoy the freedom you have today. We paved the way didn't we? And you just take it all for granted, don't you.

[quote] As for me, I hope I was diplomatic enough to be kind to older guys who came on to me when I wasn't interested. And I think I deserve the same from people like you.

Sensitive much R94?

Not sure how you got the impression I reacted to overtures from eldergays rudely, but I am always polite.

Which on Grindr means not responding or saying "sorry, not a match" versus "Gross you old grandpa!"

[quote] And you just take it all for granted, don't you.

Seriously, I think you might need to see a therapist to help you deal with these feelings of worthlessness you're experiencing.

We don't all take you for granted.

I will trade the rush of anonymous sex that could get you beaten and arrested for the safety and security and protection and love of my marriage to my husband

Sure you don't R99. I must have misjudged the meaning behind your words.

Being gay in the '80s-90s reminds me of the movie "Bell, Book & Candle." We had our own magical secret society that the straight world knew nothing about. Remember when we could communicate through a rainbow flag symbol and straights didn't have a clue what it meant? It doesn't have the same cache now that everyone knows our little secrets.

Grindr is a waste of time. What's the point? People need to meet in person. You know right away whether it's gonna work out.

Sorry, that was for R98

When I'm an eldergay I will not be nostalgic for any kind of discrimination.

[quote]Grindr is a waste of time. What's the point? People need to meet in person. You know right away whether it's gonna work out.

Not only did it make face-to-face conversation with other gay men that much harder, now we have to share it with women and trans so it's basically no different than CraigsList. Can't gay men have anything just for ourselves that we don't have to share with anything else?

Trans have been on there for quite a while R105, just not "officially"

Have yet to see an actual woman.

R105 GROW THE F**K UP! You sound like you're in kindergarten! Go change your diaper!

Remember the AIDS? Ah, that takes me back.

OP, I can help you out! Just give me a few more months.

OP we HEAR you, your post reminds me of what i thought after watching "Sobstory" aka that dreadful miniseries "When We Rise" I thought to myself wait what? This show's peculiar and fetishistic focus on suffering is a catastrophic and skewed portrayal of the gay experience. Apparently gay activists never had an adventuresome or free-spirited moment -- not even during the 1970s in the Castro! Apparently all they did is grimly confront a never-ending series of tragedies and crises. At the end of your eight-hour tear fest I wanted to send each one of them back in time to the opening night of the Saint! or better yet, the Mineshaft! GET FISTED! Any one of us who came of age before recently can point to scars and summon up righteous anger.. but let's not forget that so much of the gay story involves a CREATIVE JOY for life regardless of what we endured. For example, the dance floor. Club life, nightlife, dancing with abandon to bass heavy sex beats... WE FUCKING INVENTED IT! FUCKING DISCO, HOUSE, AFTER HOURS! Shirtless guys were dancing to "It's Raining Men" but all When We Rise gives us is Chicken Little yelling "the sky is falling." The gay experience was not all-bad-all-the-time and we were not 24/7 victims, and yet that's how your show misleadingly portrays it. I'd venture to say that one urban gay man in the 1970s had more fun in one weekend than the entire millennial generation has ever had! But in When We Rise the gays of San Francisco apparently don't even celebrate Halloween unless they're wearing wet blankets! Our lives were a fuck lot more than wallowing in "oppression". In response to oppression WE CREATED A CULTURE OF FLAGRANT JOY. Your sad show not only fails to represent; it feels like homework and approaches outright slander.. a grand erasure of history! When We Erase! Thank goodness so few are watching. !!

R110: That's a good assessment of [italic]When We Rise[/italic]; it fails to acknowledge that some of our rising was just to live everyday lives.

God forbid someone make a gay history movie that's actually fun. Look at the original [italic]Hairspray[/italic]: it's set during the era of the African-American Civil Rights movement but it's not preachy, dreary, or didactic. It's a message movie for people who hate message movies.

Nothing to look forward to the way things are going. It's only a matter of time Trump comes after gay marriage and other gains. He's got to feed his hounds.

So, so glad I have great memories. After an oversheltered upbringing, the liberating rush of sex on the broken piers, broken pathways by the river, parks, glory holes. With wholesome thrill seeking young men like myself. Never an std from any of these either.

Watch this gay French short film (called ‘Paradisco’) and get back to us, hon. I think it will speak to the feelings you’re in.

R90 As an eldergay, I totally agree that it's disgusting when older men chase after twinks (unless it's a genuine, mutual attraction of legal age). Anyone with an ounce of dignity wouldn't do that. But I was never interested in twinks even when I was a twink. I always thought they were boring and selfish. Mature guys may not be as pretty but they'er a lot sexier and more interesting. Why would I want to baby-sit a narcissistic little punk? Call me selfish, but I want the candy- not the wrapper.

NYC 1970s: sex at the west side piers, the loading docks and in the trucks.

I wasn't living in NYC in the early 80s when I was a young man but I did look into the book store and park cruising scene in my mid-sized city at that time and tbh I never saw the appeal. It seemed too random, too dangerous, too dirty. I'm not denigrating those who enjoyed those things and have great memories. The bar scene was fun for me for a while, but the loud, bitchy-booziness of it all began to grate. I had some great experiences with Grindr, however, and am friends with some of my tricks. It, too, is changing but I can see this controversial app being looked back on with fondness. To each their own. I'm glad I at least had some hot fun before I aged out entirely.

21st Century gay men are aging out way too young, thanks to the millennials.

R79 Why R78 is a troll ?

This thread screams internalised homophobia.

When it was taboo and also illegal and you were found out is when you were running and hiding and hoping not to be bludgeoned to death or have your neck snapped by rough trick while giving him a blowjob. Or be arrested by the police and beaten up.

You've never had it so good.

R54 is an excellent example of the shallow, cut-and-paste, 2-second attention span of many younger people today. To understand my point, you actually have to read the entire statement, dearie. Sorry it's too complicated for you. Read R61 and R71 as well for the help you apparently need.

This thread doesn't say anything about "internalised homophobia" to me, R119. In the main, it expresses a longing for the pleasures of a more private world that is now exposed to all. Knowledge of a way of living that not everyone had or needed knowledge of.

Yeah, now a romantic relationship between a women and a men is called "gay".

I miss the dancing

r17 = my idea of hell.

I heard Saudi Arabia still retained that nostalgic risqué "taboo" factor. You can relive the old times by holidaying in Riyadh, OP.

r105 is just the same, sadistic bigot living to denigrate trannies who posts on every, other thread.

Nobody's stealing anything from you. You can coexist with trannies, but you enjoy hurting people who are different than you and pretending you're superior.

Go manufacture another "problem," you don't deserve sympathy here.

I miss the bookstores and the glory holes.

R20 Thanks for schooling these hysterical, pearl-clutching little queens. They read shit into my post that wasn't even remotely mentioned. Now they're all triggered and hating older men just because we have the audacity to have one good memory from our past. Are these delicate little bitches always in SJW mode. It's no surprise that they're always angry and miserable. They're skin is like panty-hose.

R126 Thinking back on the bookstores and glory holes, it seems so long ago, of another age. What an astonishing scene that was, come to think of it.

R125 Trannies are homophobic they also hate lesbians, get out from this site !

I agree that gay.com was the beginning of the end!

Gays still get beaten up and murdered for being gay all over the world. I'm with the OP though. I SORTA miss the "taboo" days. There was a gay culture. A club that you could belong in. We were special. The summer I came out and the ensuing junior year of college is the favorite year of my life. The freedom. The liberation. Daring to be who you are when people didn't want you to be who you are. It was a thrill. This is a FACT. Maybe the young-uns wouldn't have been as brave as us. I don't know. But all of this is true. It was a special time to be gay. And we weren't all beaten and murdered. 99.9% of us stuck together and lived through it.

I don't. Those were dark, horrible times. Good riddence.

R131 Fortunately, I was never beaten or harassed, and I don't recall anyone being actually beaten up, but I lived in St. Louis which is a medium sized city and not nearly as wild as SF or NYC. It was definitely a more exciting time to just be part of a subculture. I was fine with being on the 'down-low' at work and school during the week because it made me look forward to the weekends so much. I didn't need to share my personal life with straight people and shout my sexuality from the rooftop.

What youre all missing is the Secret Society aspect of this power. That was historically what men loving men -in a world of men loving WOMEN - was all about. And that still exists for the few who are willing to further explore this mystery and not buy into the mass production and acceptance of it.

DO YOUR RESEARCH and return to the magic again with the added benefit of having lived so many years fighting for this mystery!

What is this getting beaten up for being gay business?

I lived through the 1970s in NYC. The city was teeming with gay men. We were having sex in every nook and cranny of the city. Cruising was hot and heavy everywhere. Discos, clubs, bathhouses, porn palaces, the piers, the parks, the tea-rooms from the subways to Bloomingdales....yet I never, but never, heard of anyone being beaten up for being gay.

I'd have much more fear today.

Gay bashing should be made legal, it would add that extra layer of danger when a gay man goes out to try and hook up. It should also be made legal for gays to be fired from their jobs for being gay. All this would bring back that sense of togetherness and community that OP so lovingly reminisces about.

[quote] I'd have much more fear today.

Because you're old. You fear the world because you're old. You lash out at young people because you're old. You pine for a past that never really was because you're old. None of this conversation is about remembering better times. It's about old people who don't like living in the times they're in.

I'm approaching eldergay status myself and the last thing I want to become is bitter and afraid of the world I live in. Your nostalgia is a trap.

[quote]Because you're old. You fear the world because you're old. You lash out at young people because you're old. You pine for a past that never really was because you're old. None of this conversation is about remembering better times. It's about old people who don't like living in the times they're in. I'm approaching eldergay status myself and the last thing I want to become is bitter and afraid of the world I live in. Your nostalgia is a trap.

Wha? I have no fear of the world. I don't lash out at young people. I work with them (I'm in a creative field). I enjoy their company. I count young people in their 20s among my friends (I'm 64). I hear their stories. I'm part of their lives.

I love today. But I'm old enough to know the differences between society of then and now. I've lived both.

I'll repeat: as far as gay bashing goes....I'd have much more fear today.

For R137

This is from just a few years ago:

....

OP, you are boring. You somehow feel that the old days made you more interesting. They didn't, you were just as boring then.

Even as a kid in the 1970s and 80s, I noticed this: the overwhelming number of gay men somehow felt that adopting "gay culture" made them more interesting when in fact they were dull as dishwater. It was wearing a costume to hide their limitations.

OP, just spend a week in Alabama, West Virginia or North Carolina.

It will take you back those "good" old days of bonding together in the closet

OP It's hard to convey the frisson of being in the shadows. There were many more shades of grey then, from sexual outlaws to high drama queens. The diversity demanded tolerance.

When mainstream acceptability is the goal, behavior and thought become restricted. It demands acquiescence and conformity.

R143, there are just as many eccentrics in the gay world as in the past. People who are naturally larger than life personalities don't tone it down to shop at Target. What has changed is that the ordinary gay guys are no longer invisible. What pisses people off is that they now have to share "the space". It is like a child who is pissed because there is a new baby in the house.

Your comment about tolerance is a joke. There was nothing tolerant about the Gay Community of the 1970s and 80s. Everyone broke into their own little ghetto. Most Gay Bars were very compartmentalized. The notion that you could walk into a Gay Bar and find a Leather Queen, an Drag Queen, a Club Kid, an Opera Queen, a Radical Faerie, and a Stock Broker all rubbing elbows is a fantasy.

Also, the biggest danger for a gay man, was other gay men. Gay bars were not safe spaces. In many cases one had to have an alias for fear that another gay man would out you at work just for kicks. Many, many gay men were vicious to other Gay Men and enjoyed destroying other people. The fantasy is that everyone was one close family that took care of one another. The reality is that one had a lot of acquaintances that you never allowed to get too close. There was a lot of sex, but very little true friendship.

Even Datalounge was better then! The loung is far too serious these days.

[quote]The fantasy is that everyone was one close family that took care of one another.

R144 Actually it wasn't quite the fantasy you make it out to be. There was a lot of solidarity. Certainly more than today. And the AIDS crisis proved that.

[quote]Most Gay Bars were very compartmentalized. The notion that you could walk into a Gay Bar and find a Leather Queen, an Drag Queen, a Club Kid, an Opera Queen, a Radical Faerie, and a Stock Broker all rubbing elbows is a fantasy.

Oh how wrong you are. Did you live through Disco? Studio54. Or even the gay bar on the corner?

People are much more compartmentalized today.

[quote]There was a lot of sex, but very little true friendship.

Perhaps for you.

R146, you are an idiot.

I worked at Studio 54 (and the Limelight, the Underground, and New York, New York). My job was to stand out front and keep people out. There was a very strict formula as to how much “color” was to be allowed in. Unless it was a specially Gay night, it was very restrictive. There were a few people who were essentially professional set decoration and would be walked in, otherwise, there was a quota. Even on Gay nights, there was a quota for drag queens and serious leather. They did not want to get a reputation of being either a drag club or a leather club. And, of course, there was a quota for women, blacks, and Hispanics.

AIDS did create a certain amount of community, but I am talking about the pre-AIDS days of the 1970s and early 1980s. That said, a lot of the “community” is exaggerated in hindsight. Really, a lot of it was voodoo. If I do good and work for the GMHC, I won’t get sick. Community was certainly part of it, but so were the guys with AIDS who were determined to infect as many people as possible before they died. I could tell you stories about the early days of GMHC that would curl you hair.

R144 maybe that was your reality, but you certainly can't speak for everyone or every city or every community. Maybe you lived in Podunk, USA?

Yes during the early 80's risky behavior continued for a lot of guys. It was really sad. There was a guy in our group of friends who continued to cruise the parks (Central and Riverside). He did get AIDS and he continued to cruise. I remember us discussing this guy and I think we were all in shock because none of us went crazy on him in order to get him to see what he was doing. But I don't think we really understood. He stopped talking to us and we found out through the grapevine that he died. It was a crazy time and I am only truly understanding now that some of us were a bit in shock and feeling paralyzed.

R149 Interesting that you immediately resort to name calling...meanwhile telling us that "Many, many gay men were vicious to other Gay Men and enjoyed destroying other people. "

Sounds like you've got problems that you've carried with you into old age.

As for Studio54: we all know about the door policy: but the idea was to have a mix of all kinds of people from celebrities on down. And that's the way it was back then... there was a mix of people that you just don't see today.

[quote]AIDS did create a certain amount of community, but I am talking about the pre-AIDS days of the 1970s and early 1980s.

It proves in fact that community was always there. Would that type of bonding still be here today during a similar crisis?

I just don't think so.

[quote] Yeah, now a romantic relationship between a women and a men is called "gay".

When I was growing up, gay meant "happy."

I miss the old Datalounge

I dunno, R152, I'm finding this thread to be interesting, if somewhat prickly.

The Gays are never happy. You spent decades crying for equal rights. Fighting to blend in and become mainstream. Welcome to the 21st Century. You got what you so desperately fought for, and HAD TO have. Now you've got it and you're still not happy. Many gay men abhor women. MOST gay men label straight people as breeders. You want your secret societies, your secret clubs, and your secret handshakes. . I thought you all wanted to blend in? What happened to that? AND THEN you have the audacity to want to go back to the 1970s? But of course with all the rights you've been given. You can't have your cake and eat it too. And you can't go back in time. Why don't you all try assimilating into society as a whole instead of having your separatist ideals? It's impossible to take you all seriously because you're all fickle and don't really know what you want.

[quote][R149] Interesting that you immediately resort to name calling...meanwhile telling us that "Many, many gay men were vicious to other Gay Men and enjoyed destroying other people. "

Oh honey, bless your heart. First I must start with the obligatory "You must be new here." comment. I believe it is required. Second, that may be unkind, but hardly rises to the level of vicious. Third, using Studio 54 as an example of tolerance is pretty idiotic. The "tolerance" was totally fake and for show. It is kind of like citing the old Banana Republic decor and an example of multiculturalism.

As to your second point yes, I do think there would be that kind of community today when dealing with a crisis. We had another example of it during 9/11. It is what people do, but it is transitory. Once the crisis is over they drift back to their old patterns and habits.

I know Gays, particularly younger Gays, hate to hear this, but Boys in the Band and the TV show Vicious are pretty much documentaries. Gay men of a certain generation were just like that. They related to each other by being horrible to each other.

Keep in mind, the average gay man was known as a "clone". Think about the meaning of that word for a minute. What does it mean to be a "clone"? There is also the implication of being a replacement for a human being. As I recall, the playwright Robert Patric addressed this somewhat in his play T-Shirts when he talks about the "Queen Machine".

There was very strong social pressure to conform to "The Gay Community". Being promiscuous was pretty much forced on young people whether they were ready for that or not. There was a lot of sexual coercion, bullying, and harassment. A lot of the drugs and the drinking during the 70s and early 80s at least started as a way deal with doing things one really did not want to do. I knew several nice kids who really went of the deep end and either ended up dead or really fucked up.

In the end, we still caved to every single heterosexual approved notion, the most mundane of societal constraints. The high school cheerleaders won in the end. We are "normal" because they like us, they really really like us.

I do miss the sense of outlaw and rebellion, the things the Stonewall generation allowed the rest of us that followed to have. It was a very fun time. Now we are mainstream to the extreme and it's so fucking boring.

R156, it is mostly still there. Yeah, you may not be able to have sex at the docks anymore, but you can still be a sexual outlaw, drag queen, radical faerie, etc. The difference is that you can also be a parent, serviceman, computer nerd, gamer, or sports enthusiast. The choices have not narrowed. They have expanded.

Actually, what has really killed gay life is not mainstreaming, but real estate. That is what has killed the gay bars, gay bookstores, card shops, etc.

Just a reminder that Stormfront and the Christians are always looking to divide us by trolling this website. Gay men vs. transvs. Lesbians vs. str8 women, etc.

Just think, in the near distant future there won't be any Eldergays left to reminisce about "the good old days" to the gaylings. The millennials and beyond won't have ANY idea about what happened in the 70s or 80s. Or who paved the road for them. The AIDS crisis. Etc. The millenials don't read, so forget about them learning about gay history. They're too busy trading pics on Grindr, or posting selfies and food pics on Facebook, Instagram, etc As well as every self-absorbed thought they ever had on Twitter. Millenials = worst generation.

R158: Oh those EEEEEEVIL Episcopalians!

The man who murdered 50 people at Pulse in Orlando was a:

A) Muslim

B) Jew

C) Christian

D) Atheist

There is only one correct answer.

R159, to be quite fair, most of the eldergays of today, did not read about gay life in the 1930s &1940s when they were in their 20s. Granted, there weren't that many book available, but the information was out there, and they certainly were not listening to the old guys at Fedora's talk about way-back-when.

I remember hearing a man of the WWII generation say that the persecution of gays starting in the 50s was a backlash from years of same-sex in barracks, berths, and fox holes of the war years. He might say he lived the glory years. He might say watch out for the swinging pendulum.

The next time the pendulum swings, it won't be gays who will get hit by it if I have anything to do with it.

It will be the gays being hit. Homophobia is alive and well, all over the world.

The advantage we have today is that homosexuality is no longer identified solely by same sex. We have become a less two-dimensional, more whole people, which may be the upside of mainstreaming. I am optimistic.

R159 got issues

No he doesn't. Shut the fuck up. He makes very good points.

Another factor is how easy it is to come out now, which is of course a very good thing. But there is an unfortunate side-effect of that: in the old days when it was much more difficult to be out, a certain type of gay man - culturally conservative, uninquisitive, determined to conform, etc - would be much more likely to remain in the closet, probably get married and disappear into the straight world. Now, because of all the hard work and sacrifice that the brave and adventurous queens made in those darker times, it's far easier to come out and those types of gay guys who previously would have remained closeted are not only out now but driving gay culture (because they're easier to sell to mainstream audiences). That's why gay culture is so dull now.

Better out than closeted and in a false marriage, causing insidious harm. How many miserable men were abusive, alcoholics or whatever because they were miserable?

Paul Lynde: Funny on the outside. Miserable on the inside. He was a MISERABLE drunk. Because he was so closeted. Which I never understood because EVERYONE knew he was gay. (and I don't mean HAPPY)

Oh, I know just whatcha mean.

Early on, I became very happy with being gay because it meant I could bypass so many silly rituals in mainstream society -- weddings, births, recitals, all that shit. Now with the mainstreaming, all that is back again but thankfully I am Larry David enough to still ignore them. And most of the Daddies are hanging around with the Breeders and bragging about their devil spawn there so I don't have to deal with it much.

(For the record, I grew up in the typical Upper Middle Class family with boy scouts and country clubs and all that shit... so I did it early, never romanticized it and knew I wanted nothing to do with it later. I could not wait to move to L.A. and engage in a little debauchery, thankfully not enough to kill me along the way. Even that seems to be falling to the wayside now).

R164, Don't kill too many straights or there won't be many future gays. You didn't find a way gay men can give birth, did you?

R169: They're the type of closet cases that volunteer to be scout leaders or little league baseball coaches and then end up diddeling the kids. Those types of assholes have always existed in the closet and still do because it gives them the type of cover they want.

R174: That depends on their behavior towards us.

[quote] but thankfully I am Larry David enough to still ignore them.

Same here R173. I'm cultivating a crotchety persona.

THE only gay men nostalgic for the past are elder gays who are eccentric or relish being outlaws and outcasts. The vast majority of bisexual and gay men are inherently more mainstream, regular guys who don’t want to live some wild, outcast, distorted, underground, sexually out of control life. They want to live lives with and similar to their straight brethren. For the larger number of mainstream men who are attracted to men, the past sounds horrific.

[quote] elder gays who are eccentric or relish being outlaws and outcasts

I am and I do.

R169, our greatly underestimate how hard it is for dudes to come out still today, particularly masculine men who are not stereotypical. A quick perusal of male seeking male ads will reveal huge numbers of men on the Down low or “straight” with wives and girlfriend who never want to come out.

You greatly underestimate...

That's down to those guys though. To blame other people for their resistance to come out is very weak.

Who’s blaming anyone? It’s their preference not to come out. They have a host of compelling reasons, including they don’t want to be associated with stereotypical openly gay men or feel openly gay identity undermines their masculinity and mainstream respect

So they get unhappily married instead, catch HIV while on the down-low (it's a huge phenomenon whether you like it or not) and give it to their wives. Gotcha.

Male homosexuality never went mainstream, only female homosexuality did. Gay characters are still not allowed to kiss, let alone have sex on tv. Lesbians get to kiss and have sex on tv all the time.

R185, you’re stuck in 1999 dude. You ever watch Empire, How to get Away with Murder, or Riverdale?

You're trying to use RIVERDALE as an example of real life, dude?

THIS thread is very revealing about the distinct demographics and personAlity of DL. You have a disportionate number of older gay men who innately relish being outcasts and on the margins of society. They long for the old days when their ways and interests were more indicative of the gay community, and resent the changes that have sidelined to the eccentric corner. But they forget their putlaw personalities and inclinations are not the same as those of most bi and gay men today. Progress means today’s gay and bi men can just blend in with the guys.

WE aren’t talking about real life; we are talking about tv shows.

You're the only one talking about TV shows, dude. While the rest of us are living in reality.

R186 Fine, there are exceptions, but I still stand by what I said, it's still taboo for gay men to kiss on tv. I can't even count the number of times there have been outrage over gay kisses on tv.. Black Sails, The Walking Dead and the list goes on and on and on. Viewers never complain about lesbians kissing, it's only when it's two men. Again; lesbians are more accepted in society than gay men. Gay men never went mainstream, only lesbians did.

r190, keep up. R185 is an assertion about tv.

R137 Sounds like your beyond the bitter stage already- if your so afraid of 'aging out' , there is one option but I wouldn't recommend it. Shallow and angry people usually don't age gracefully. Therapy may help, but hurry, the clock is ticking!

Some people relish being weird, wild, and living on the subculture margins as a despised minority. Most people do not. For that great Majority, modern life as a bi/gay man is far superior.

I get what OP is trying to say, i also miss the time when we had our own gay clubs without straight couples kissing or crazy girls screaming.

r180 It is still difficult for some to come out, but it's become significantly easier for that type of gay man who wants above all to conform and to be accepted by straight society. The type of gay man who wasn't as adventurous and brave as the queens who came out fighting in the decades when it was much, much harder to be openly gay. The kind of gay man who is uncreative and culturally incurious. The kind of gay man who is a conformist, who kowtows to authority (literal and social) and who is repelled by their own difference and abnormality.

It's far easier now for that kind of gay man to come out and many do. And because of their acquiescent natures, their conformity and their acceptability, they're perfect fodder for mainstream culture. That's precisely why everyone's currently ejaculating over a film about gay pig farmers.

R144 So your saying you were a total bitch and nobody liked you - some things never change.

Culturally incurious?

r198 Pig farmers!

R144 The whole world didn't revolve around NYC. Smaller cities were not quite as dramatic. Studio 54 hardly represented every gay bar in America. I'm sure you could have found another job if you were so traumatized by "keeping people out".

I'm sure there must be adorable pig farmers out there somewhere.

Sorry R144 - comment 200 was meant for R147

R196, it’s people are innately mundane and unremarkable. It’s why it’s ordinary, mainstream. Nothing wrong with that.

I meant “most people are innately...”

R56 Not only that, now were all lumped in with this 'alphabet soup' shit and were all haters if we don't embrace every letter and somehow feel this magical bond with them.

r203 But even the vast majority of mundane and unremarkable people don't want to pay money to go and see a film about the mundane and unremarkable. But we have a gay culture now which largely appeals to that self-consciously mundane and unremarkable type of gay man (conservatives, dudebros, conformists, "men who have sex with men", etc, etc) by merely affirming their boring everydayness.

Also, I'm not sure most people are mundane and unremarkable, because the character of straight people has never really been tested in this regard. By definition, they've always fitted in and haven't had to make the choice about whether or not to stand up and fight for their right to live as they are. Had they done so, a significant portion of straight people would probably have shown themselves to be as brave and adventurous and creative as the queens and dykes who came out and fought and pioneered gay culture in the C20th.

R159 Even though many of them probably want us euthanized (judging from this thread), I really do hope they come to their senses. There's a lot of good kids out there that just don't know any better because their parents and the schools have failed them.

It is in our nature to want things. When snot is flowing out of your nose, when the inside of your throat feels like sandpaper, a fever makes every little move hurt like hell ... that's the moment your desire for being healthy is the greatest.

Back in the 70s and 80s gay life wasn't really great. Gay people had to carve out their own refugee camps (aka gayborhoods), speakeasies, their little hiding spots where they could be who they feel they were and enjoy their idea of fun. Passion and desire was high, because gay people were motivated to do stuff in order to have some fleeting moments of joy. Nowdays we are lacking this high passion and desire, because people don't get motivated anymore. You would think the GOP and Donald Trump would cause this great uproar within the Gay Community, but we live in a "thoughts and prayers" culture where personal action is frowned upon and instead you do your activism through social media by altering your profile pic to stand with the cause of the day.

And all the desire for nostalgia will be satisfied soon enough through commercialized retro party planners and other ways to make a quick buck out of Millennials trying to "rough it" like in the good old days where gays were marginilized and had to resort to cruising in the parks (now it's closed off areas where straight and bi hipsters can, for a fee, do some safe space cruising or have drink a beer in a dive bar acting like gays from the 70s or 80s in time appropiate clothes).

R200, just to be pedantic, I was not 'traumatized by "keeping people out".' I obviously did the job for a very long time. I was simple responding to the ridiculous notion that Studio 54 was some sort of egalitarian heaven. I also want to be clear that I did not hate the 1970s or 1980s, I just have a very realistic view of it all. It does rather annoy me when people talk about the days pre-AIDS like southerners talk about the days pre-Civil War.

As to smaller cities, it depends on your definition of "dramatic". They certainly were not as flamboyant. They certainly had a high level of drama as the stakes were higher. If you got outed at work in NYC, you had more options than is you got outed at work in Evansville, IN. Life was even more isolated. Gay bars were dangerous places that one had to sneak into and out of. One always had to worry that someone was taking down license plates*. Even entertaining at home was dangerous or at least suspect. No straight man has all male dinner parties on a regular basis.

* For those who wonder why one simply didn't park a few blocks away, in many cases Gay Bars were outside the town line in an isolated stretch of road. One could enter and leave with more privacy, but the police or newspapers would often check license plates. It was a common source of blackmail.

The problem nowdays is that gays fought to live in a box like the straight people. Innovation and progress can only come from those who think outside the box having the desire to escape the box.

IF YOU want to live outside the box, go for it. I have no interest or desire for some radical underground lifestyle. Diversity means a lot will want to just live normal unremarkable lives.

[quote]Diversity means [bold]a lot will want to just live normal unremarkable lives[/bold].

I don't think you know what the word diversity means.

R212, you don't know what diversity means. Diversity means having a place at the table for everyone, even the dull and boring.

r213 But the table is, by definition, dull and boring.

R214, perhaps, but that has nothing to do with diversity. What you are talking about is individuality.

R209 I get what you saying, there were risks of being outed for some people. I lived in St. Louis during those times, and was a student with a part-time retail job, so no one really cared. But older professional guys had to be discreet and didn't really do the bar scene, I guess they had other ways to hook-up. Our bars were in the seedy areas but rarely any major problems. Police were pretty cool, too. Just had to use common sense and look out for each other.

[quote] you don't know what diversity means. Diversity means having a place at the table for everyone, even the dull and boring.

A LOT of them, apparently.

[quote]Diversity means [bold]a lot [/bold] will want to just live normal unremarkable lives.

You weren't going for diversity, you were going for a majority rules argument and throwing diversity in for some stupid reason.

R211 Diversity is way over-rated. Just because you prefer to hang-out with like-minded people that share common ground doesn't mean you hate everyone else. It's basic human nature. I love my brother but we have nothing in common except DNA. We can respect each other's differences and live our own lives. Why do we have to 'embrace' everything that we will never understand.

R217, first that is not what R211 said at all. He certainly was not advocating majority rule. You are hung up on his use of " a lot" and ignoring the rest of the post.

You seem to be hung up on a numbers game. As long as everyone can be true to themselves, the numbers really don't matter.

This thread is awesome, finally some 'somewhat' civil adult dialog on DL without all the bullshit politics and who's fucking who in Hollywood.

I just saw BEACH RATS. God, it's the most boring film I've ever watched (and I've sat through WEEKEND).

[quote][R217], first that is not what [R211] said at all.

It was, otherwise he wouldn't have used "a lot". That was deliberate and using diversity was a throwaway in order to not come off as the bigot troll he is thinking he is oh-so-clever using the word diversity like "I come in peace! / I am no homophobe / racist bigot, but ..." troll. Actual gays notice these sort of things when someone tries to push the majority rules agenda around here.

Nostalgia makes people remember the past differently. Some chose to see the positve (a community coming together against a big threat like AIDS or conservatives) and others prefer to see the misery of being alone against the rest of the world including other gays and everything was just cynical BS.

I think there's just as much misery and solitude now. More so, in many cases.

It takes nerves of steel to negotiate modern life, gay or straight. So much chatter and distraction working against a centered mind. My grandparents' lives were much harder and bereft materially but man did they know how to have a good time and laugh -- through the tears you might say. A lot of it had to do with this solidarity the OP is getting at, the "in it together" spirit, in their case rising out of the Depression and war years. We all seem to need to point our fingers at an enemy. Nowadays this has become a circular firing squad. The solution: Wait, real troubles will find us soon enough.

R159 is a lunatic

Millenial hate is real on DL it seems. I don't get it.

It's very cliche, but I truly believe life is what you make it to be. Not everyone is going to like everyone. And we don't have to. But all people deserve respect. Live and let live.

See the glass half-full and you'll live a more positive, happy life.

R16 Agree 200% and a round of applause to you sir, R17 congratulations on your relationship, you and your partner worked to maintain it and obviously love one another . I do take your exception to your pronouncement of "I win". Not everyone is cut out for a relationship or the the planets do not align to have a partner. My own history is my relationships have been few and far between and lasting no more than 6 months. It used to bother me to the point of depression until I realized this is my life path , what God or the higher power had planned for me . I have no drug , alcohol, sex, gambling , or shopping addictions. I too am an eledergay with a paid off house and financially secure. My sexual history is too long and detailed to get into in here, let's suffice to say that my experiences likely parallel R16s .

Having a partner /husband as a eldergay is NO guarantee of happiness/security . I see too many long tern relationships that continue to exist because of financial entanglements rather than ongoing love and respect for each other. Don't get me started on the older couples seeking a 3rd for a triad ( what the hell are you becoming Mormon all of a sudden) and all the couples cruising Grindr, Scruff and Adam 4 Adam for a three way .

I have probably interacted with at least 1000 men sexually in my lifetime. Some extraordinary , some bad and some average all of those interactions had some meaning .

I too feel the internet and apps have forever damaged how we engage sexually for the worst. Was there danger in the "old school" cruising in the 70s of course , but there is danger using the internet and apps now as well. It's a little disconcerting that someone can track you via GPS and the instances of "catfishing " leading to being attacked are many these days.

You can't catfish someone in a bookstore, park, bathhouse or backroom of a bar, what you see is what you get .

People and times really are vastly different. I hear these shocking stories about guys who had sex with over a thousand partners and frequented sex clubs and public sex locations and I feel pity for people who werd products of an oppressive society that made them live a life of extremes and loveless hollow experiences. It’s a testament to the power of rejection to make groups of people live suicdal, distorted lives of reckless abandon. One of the great things about Greater acceptance is that so many will never know that type of desperate life.

Viva "extremes and loveless hollow experiences"!

Some of you really do sound like Church Ladies.

The 70s were lots of fun in NYC. Gay was out there and even chic if not mainstream- but the city swarmed! Clubs like Studio and the Saint the greatest ever.

But equal rights and homogenation is really better- financial advantages, family/child, health- it matters- big time.

The advent of technology and social media killing the club and bar scene is somewhat of a different phenomenon and I think sad. Guys don't know how to meet and converse in person! I am over stating, but not much.

All this said- lots of young guys having the times of their lives in NYC. It's not the 70s and I can't dance with Diana Ross and Sterling St Jacques and some of the best looking men in the world on a given night (hee hee, I did and lots more)- but they are having their fun which will probably be every bit as great memories as mine are. I hope so.

R178, you’re a basic bitch, a mama’s boy and a coward. Don’t glorify it.

But only a certain type of person went to gay clubs or moved to gay ghettoes back then, even now. For many bi and gay men who didn’t want to step into those spaces or live that type of stereotypical life, they suppressed their same-sex orientation and blended in with mainstream society. Thanks to social changes and the internet/social media, more mainstream oriented guys can be more open about their bi/gay interests, and find other guys just like them.

Fat frau at R154 hasn’t been touched by her equally fat husband in 15 years because her cunt and armpits stink. But she’s got Jesus on her side. #maga, honey.

I thought your narrative was that those mainstream guys are still largely in the closet, due to the stifling and crippling 'gay culture'.

The aggressive conformist @ r188 is a pussy and has no business calling himself a man.

You’re too terrified what everyone else thinks and living for them.

P.S. You don’t blend in with “the straight guys” unless you’re still in the closet around them.

They may keep quiet instead of attacking you, but they still look down on you and avoid your company.

Because the only straight guys who don’t mind are STILL the “outcasts” and “outlaw personalities” you despise so much.

Not the conformist bros who thrive on dissing anything different from themselves.

There are tons of non-conformist straight people, r206, who were tested, outcast and persecuted just for thinking differently.

Everyone from Galileo to Darwin to Ghandi.

Mindless conformity isn’t for everyone or sustainable.

Dear r230, MALE NATURE causes “over a thousand sex partners,” NOT “oppressive society.”

Once again, you’ve allowed today’s “normal,” homophobia, women’s thinking and Christian brainwashing to pervert your mind against yourself and anyone who diverges.

The truth is, pagan societites WERE NOT “oppressive” until the Christians and Muslims brainwashed or tortured them into radical Puritanism.

Ancient Greeks, Romans and other pagans lived it up and partied extravagantly.

Their STRAIGHT men were expected to have “thousands of sexual partners” and very often did, in cultures where prostitution and homosexuality were legal and “adultery” didn’t apply to a husband unless he was taking another citizen’s wife.

You have fallen for the brainwahsed, ignorant and terrified herd mentality again — a victim of conformity and cultural lies — so much so that you hate yourself and live for sheep.

But all those Christian, American sheep and “mainstream bros” you idolize are busy idolizing professional athletes — WHO HAVE OVER A THOUSAND SEX PARTNERS and disdain the normal.

Tom Brady and LeBron James are what matters most to your precious sheep — but you and the sheep will never have the balls.

[quote] THE only gay men nostalgic for the past are elder gays who are eccentric or relish being outlaws and outcasts. The vast majority of bisexual and gay men are inherently more mainstream, regular guys who don’t want to live some wild, outcast, distorted, underground, sexually out of control life. They want to live lives with and similar to their straight brethren. For the larger number of mainstream men who are attracted to men, the past sounds horrific.

Some parts of the past were good. There were more spaces that were just for gay people, and the bars certainly have better music to dance to. Now, what do I hear? The same shit my sisters tormented me with when I was a teen.

[quote]There are tons of non-conformist straight people, [R206], who were tested, outcast and persecuted just for thinking differently.

Yes, but my point was that straight people have never been tested on the basis of something as deeply ingrained as ones sexual orientation. Having non-conformist beliefs is akin to that, but not quite the same thing. The type of people who are at the forefront of gay culture now (ie. the ones who can sell themselves in the mainstream) are the ones who, were we still living in a pre-90s climate, would likely remain in the closet.

R239, Just to clarify, are you saying you have or you know someone who has had over a thousand sexual partners, not including sex workers? When did it become male nature instead of an individual's personal choice?

R234, and what type of man was that? I assume you were there to know. My nose never bleed when I was in gay neighborhoods, hardly, and I am about as high born as an old queen (WASP very affluent from birth, educated through the wazzu, exposed to the best of everything growing up) can get ( I was a young queen back then). Just what makes you think the world is so black and white, now or then? Chip on your shoulder?

Why are so many of you so analytical about life? It seems like a lot of you are bitter and/or angry. Maybe you're over-thinking things. Life is supposed to be fun and easy !

STOP OVER ANALYZING AND OVER DRAMATZING THE PAST, THE FUTURE AND THE PRESENT!!!!

The good old days weren’t always good, and tomorrow ain’t as bad as it seems...

Before I block you R244, let me point out that there is probably less introspection now than there ever has been, and it's not helping anybody except the oligarchs.

Just in the U.S., look at the state of the economy for working people. Or the environment, or healthcare, or mental health or general welfare. It's all a mess and getting worse.

Look at who gets elected into office. They're mostly objectively awful people.

This is all portrayed as if there is no other choice, that this is the mysterious "way things are."

The generation we call Boomers did most of this; or at least, they got it going on a huge scale. They raised this generation we call Millennial, who have been trained not to question anything. They are trained to do nothing but succeed financially by any means possible. It's their parents' ethos writ larger and more blatant.

Millennials are total debt slaves in modern society, but they don't do anything about it. They don't advocate change. They don't vote people into office who are sympathetic to their situation. They are engrossed in electronic media that reinforce the status quo. Despite media saturation, there is little access to intelligent discussion of modern politics or society.

Their social lives are disordered because they feel like they aren't ready to have relationships, because they measure relationship readiness by the size of their bank account. So, they devolve to temporary hookups, but only with people who can portray themselves on an app as being attractive enough to warrant the effort.

And given the way media has trained them to think that the only people worthy of consideration look and live like models, they don't get much action - and many of them seem to not want it, because they are so trained by porn and media to expect perfection that the real thing pales in comparison. There is no thought given to creating relationships or friendships.

Life is not all fun and games, histrionic personality disordered R244. Introspection is the first step to understanding what is going on, and where one would like to be, and how to get there.

FACTS:

1. Millenials want big dicks more than big bank accounts.

2. It is what it is. It's evolution.

Life is supposed to be fun and easy but it isn't, and the more you ignore the hardships the worse you make them.

it always comes down to money. gay is mainstream now because it generates an enormous amount of profits for many companies. i mean what is gay pride now anyways besides a giant advertisement? after a pride parade these days these foolish folks in speedos drink some bud light and open a citibank acount that's Pride™ !

I enjoyed a hearty laugh at the expense of R246 due to her stunning lack of self-awareness as she calls someone else ‘histrionic’ while delivering that post...

r227 it's that they are self-centered and have no use for what came before them. they can't be blamed really they were brought up by different media and the schools have been changed from places where you learned...to just learning how to be a good little consumer.

[quote] Gay men never went mainstream, only lesbians did.

Because straight men still run everything, and guess what? Fetishistic straight men only find the presence lesbians titillating.

That’s not progress from our perspective. If someone is using you for their pleasure & entertainment, you call that acceptance?

Homosexuality going mainstream has had its benefits.

An excerpt from Sports Business Journal:

...As a good-looking, outgoing silver medalist who helped rescue stray dogs in Sochi, Gus Kenworthy would have had plenty of calls from sponsors regardless. But when he told ESPN Magazine in 2015 he’s gay, he added the factor that makes all the difference to marketers: A distinctive personal story that highlights a diversity theme.

He’s already signed with Visa, Toyota, Ralph Lauren (photo above), Deloitte and 24 Hour Fitness, and his agent...says at least two more Olympic deals are coming. Those are on top of his long-term relationships with Monster Energy, Atomic skis and Smith goggles. He’ll be featured in Visa’s marketing and extensively profiled on NBC broadcasts. Olympic insiders say nearly every USOC or IOC sponsor inquired about his availability.

“It’s absolutely true – I think I’m more marketable now as an out athlete,” Kenworthy said. “Every brand is looking for diversity...more so than it’s ever been.”

r247 no it's not evolution is regressive.

R246 paints a scary but accurate picture. If you're over 50, be glad you're on your way out and not on your way in. The fringe mantra of the 60s "Turn on, tune in, drop out" has gone mainstream. Warhol's "15 minutes of fame" is another example of the danger of an inside joke getting into the water supply.

Men were a lot sexier and more natural looking back then. Now we have shaved and waxed gym-bunny narcissists. They worship themselves in mirrors and take selfies during daily dumps. I'm surprised there's not a 'live-steaming tap-n-sniff' app to share the full effects. They're worse than drag queens who have to fix their face every five minutes.

R256, not really. I look at the scrawny hairy men people thought were hot back pre1980, and I wonder how if People back then had no taste.

R57 So you would rather hook up with a self-centered, insecure mannequin who needs to be adored in order to feel relevant. So boring.

I wish DL had a "like" button like Facebook.

Fascinating thread.

A lot of guys proving the theory that "sexual outlaw" types wind up lonely and bitter.

In the 70s the guys who were out were mostly guys who couldn't be "in" because they were so femme or guys who were just rebels and embraced their homosexuality as a symbol of how non-conformist they were.

But now that gay is more accepted you have a lot of more conformist guys coming out, lots of "regular guys", the ones DLers call "masc", the ones who seemed like they'd never fit into what passed for "gay culture" back in the 70s, the whole Boys In The Band thing.

All it proved is that guys who like dick don't have all that much in common other than they like dick.

Takes all kinds and it's probably a good thing that all kinds are now accepted.

R260 From my experience, Femmes were not really in sexual demand back then (hence the 'clone' look) ,but they were a lot of fun and usually more interesting to talk to. And they were very brave and took no shit from anybody.

It's funny that the old guys most nostalgic for the past are the ones that are the bigger assholes on this thread. You're why I can't stand most boomers. Complaining that we stick to dating apps and want things quickly and efficiently, did you ever consider we live like this because we have to? We don't have time to do things the way you all did, we're too busy working multiple low paying jobs to pay for huge student debt and inflated cost of living from the economy your generation fucked up for us.

I'm grateful to the men (and women) that fought and sacrificed for the rights we have. I really am. But millennials are justified in being angry and rude considering how often we've been shit on by boomers.

The generation after me is afraid of their jobs being taken by robots. They're not too worried about gay people.

R263 So 'eldergays' forced you to take student loans. Did you think you wouldn't have to repay it? I don't recall having a say in what over-rated colleges charge for useless degrees in Perpetual Victim Studies. I must have more influence than I thought if I was able to destroy the economy for an entire generation of people. Being constantly angry and rude is easy, finding solutions and being respectful is hard but a lot more productive.

Sorry R263 meant for R262

[quote] Being constantly angry and rude is easy,

is my favorite line in R264's consistently angry and rude post.

R266 You drunk?

Nah Mr Singer. Not drunk at all.. And no thank you, I don't want any more, water is fine.

No thanks, I don't really like Molly ... or coke

I think I'm going to take a pass on seeing the media room Mr. Singer, but thank you.

That's very kind of you but I'd rather sleep at home. I have an Uber coming in about 4 minute s.... it's a car service --- an app on your phone ... no, it can't take photos. I promise you, no photos.

R268 Who's Molly. and why don't you like her? Coke is awful, too much acid. You like acid?

I see what you're going there Mr. Singer, gosh, no wonder you're such famous director and thread starter... my Uber is here ... no, he's just a driver, not a reporter.

Gotta go now. Been fun reminiscing with you. Sorry things worked out like that, but hey, it's never too late to change.

Hope you find some happiness!!!

Bravo R264 ! These self-absorbed, entitled millenials need to hear that! I can just imagine what they're going to leave behind for the generation after them. I shutter to think of it!

OK, Prickly, Contrarian Elder Gay here. I have been away for a while because, well, ...I have a life.

Nobody forced Millennials to take on student loans, but our generation did allow Congress to recalibrate the student loan program so that inexpensive student loans that we enjoyed we no longer available. Of course this was done to make up for tax cuts for the rich. Also, the majority of Millennials are trying to pay off their student loans as opposed to the many in my generation who simply defaulted because they didn't feel like paying.

Quite frankly, even all of this SJW crap is stuff that my generation has been teaching the Millennials. As much as I hate it, I really can't complain if the Millennials have simply been good students.

As much as I hate the lie that the 1970s and early 80s were some sort of Gay Camelot, I hate the lie that Millennials are the end of civilization as we know it.

Millenials are a bunch of whiny cry-babies. They could have never survived the 70s-80s.

So much generalization here on this thread. I thought that's what we fought against.

As for the remark that only the obviously gay men being the ones who came out because they had no other choice -- not true. They were brave, but they weren't the only ones. When I made it to NYC and realized there were so many gay guys out there I realized I wasn't alone and felt comfortable coming out to my folks. My divorced father embraced me. My mother took a little more time, but just a little (it didn't hurt that she remarried a man who had a gay son). And now that things were becoming more open those parents found others in their age group who had gay kids. The veil began to lift. And here we are.

R275, a date would help contextualize you comment.

I came out to my folks in 1971.

Boomers took cheap student loans, didn’t bother to attend class or pay the money back, and that fucked everyone who came after...

I have a cunty family member who brags about taking the money to spend a year touring Napa & the Provençal region of France.

Never paid back a dime and never faced any consequence. That led to reforms that made it so you can’t even include student debt if you go bankrupt.

I actually like responses like R262's, a good sane discussion. And he makes a point we often forget when we romanticize the good old days (and I include me in this): all these freedoms, especially those fought by the generation ahead of mine, do not mean that being in your 20s is the easiest thing in the world. We had our own shit to deal with, especially when AIDS reared its ugly head, so even being young and cute wasn't without a lot of heartache. And I dare say, even without smartphones, that we were as insufferable and self-absorbed. Just goes with the turf of that age.

I wouldn't go back to my 20s for anything -- but I'd definitely go back to my 30s. Those were the best days and amazing what just a little maturity can do -- while still being young enough that health and such wasn't an issue. Or anxiety in my case.

R275 Did you have sex with your gay step-brother? If so, was it HOT?

I remember in the 80s my much older cousin getting severely depressed for having lost almost all of his friends to AIDS. He had always been a handsome, masculine, vibrant, cutting edge, out and proud gay male. I didn't see too much of that in those days. To see him go through that depression was heartbreaking for our entire family. When he finally came out of it, and started dating agin, sadly he fell victim to the disease, and passed away at a young age. I wish they had the meds then that they have now. People now are living with AIDS instead of dying from it, or complications from it.

Please point out where I was name calling r150. I was just recounting an experience I shared with my circle of friends. I called no one names.

I grew up in the 80s and 90s, when being gay meant being beat up in school and certain death by AIDS.

Not so much nostalgia for that.

However, I will say that I always had a little bit of pride in belonging to a community of people who are known to be creative and fun-loving and artistic and envelope pushing and who created their own national flag based on the idea of including the full spectrum. Now, being gay is about being a conformist at the gym and in conforming clothing, and more than anything about being exclusive and exclusionary. Here in DC, there’s no creative gay culture, and actually a total condemnation of nonconformity. I bought a rainbow Bernie tee shirt solely for the sake of snubbing the gay Hillary Clinton mafia. (I voted for clinton, but conforming tribal behaviors really piss me off.)

We used to be the subculture of the arts and progressivism. Now we hate trans people, “fems, fats and Asians,” and other gay men who aren’t built like professional athletes. I am disappointed in this version of progress.

You can be a sprinter or a long distance runner in life. Choose your speed but there are consequences either way.

For me, the best thing about being a gay Millennial is not having to conform to the "gay mafia" that R283 mentions, of being able to connect with guys who could give AF about Judy Garland or the stylishness of highwaters and Macklemore haircuts and all that.

DL is the closest I ever get to that world.

Being gay nowadays has become so cliche that it's boring. Accept this statement or not, but not everyone is "born" gay. It has become "cool" to be gay, so a lot of people are "choosing" it as a lifestyle. Especially the millenials, and younger. There are kids in junior high making out in the hall with-same sex friends. It's the "in" thing (eyeroll) A far cry from when I was in Junior High and High School, where you would literally have gotten your ass beat at even the slightest hint of being gay. That being said, I wonder which way the pendulum will swing next.

"Seems like most of the younger kids spend all their time browsing the internet while waiting for someone to initiate contact on Grindr and other apps."

You think only young kids use grindr? LOL. Plenty of old trolls use it.

"A far cry from when I was in Junior High and High School, where you would literally have gotten your ass beat at even the slightest hint of being gay."

It's still that way for boys. It's only "chic" for girls.

R287 With all due respect, where I live, its boys and girls, pretty equally. Maybe it just happens to be a geographic thing. I live in South Florida where being gay is very accepted and the kids find it "cool" Thankfully, the kids today have a lot more tolerance. Except maybe in the Trump States.

R288 I think tolerance just shifts and changes over time. When I was a kid, I was ostracized for being gay. That may not be the case in a lot of places now. Ditto in many areas for black kids. Of course, we gay men and many black people are sort of adopted as collective cultural pets in many cases, not so much accepted as objectified. Being ostracized for being overweight has never really changed. If you’re a fat kid, unless you’re insanely funny, you’re a punching bag. Being hated for being Muslim is quite in vogue today, more or less depending where you live. As long as people have someone to look down on and hate, there’s progress toward accepting others who used to be looked down upon and hated.

I live in a blue states and even the most liberal men would rather die than have people think they're gay. Why do you think even very liberal actors deny any gay rumors?

This website’s popup spam ads are back and really killing the experience.

Such threads always amuse me,especially when I read about "rude" .. oh, miss piss-assed queen, rude you say? How rude of an anonymous Grinder-boy to ask you for (more) photos. This is some troll building up his photo catalogue for his own amusement, and NOT a boy you'd want to see to have six with. Worse, he will never come out to meet you. It isn't his thing. Have you ever hard any experience? And please, let's get over the romance that aids killed it all for you. Unfortunately, aids germs were out there, unprotected sex killed. I'm 82, never quit being a top or having sex. Was careful. Didn't die. At my age now I'm not kicking teens away throwing themselves at me. But enough hot-enough older men are out there just aching to be with somebody. My advice is tap them. It's just sex, not your life … unless your psyche is such that you only have sex to live for and no other reason. For many here life is a R50 day, and oh honey do you need to get out into the world.

Thank you for your contribution, R292. I'm very glad you're here.

I think the thought of homosexual relationships, and an alternative to the heterosexual order of the family unit was revolutionary and continues to be. That is why as it started to get somewhere, others took charge of it, and decided what it was going to be. Politicians that could get elected in very liberal areas trumpeted gay marriage - before there were basic guarantees re employment and housing. That was the way it was going, because someone else declared that was the way to be. The idea of marriage & kids was somehow not to be questioned, even by gay people. And the images of gay people on TV, that some of the younger set are probably rejecting were put out by Hollywood. Again, "gay" was taken over by someone else, for their own ends. Now parades are taken over or shut down by a variety of non-gay causes. Again, taken over by someone else. The ultimate was probably trans, a regressive push for the most sexist hetero ideas about men and women, that also prefers drugs and cutting off body parts to homosexuality. And gay organizations have been taken over to push this extreme anti-homosexuality on young kids. The younger generation should be screaming like hell over this but they have grown up on the internet of prepackaged opinions to consume. If they are told that a certain kind of homophobia is progressive, they repeat it. There are a few exceptions, of course ,in every generation but the internet has really not only killed socializing in a normal way, but critical thought. They are obedient consuming robots, being sold a regressive diet and do not know it. And they will threaten YOU as they repeat it, ignorant of the past or what is really happening now.

Due respect or not R288, your statement is misguided.

It's "cool" for kids who are already pretty out there, the artsy misfit kids have decided that being gay or pansexual or whatnot is cool. And that is a change and it is is accepted.

What's still tough is the "regular" kid who is gay, the one who plays Pop Warner football with his friends and has no desire to be different or unique.

It's still really hard for that kid, even though when and if he finally does come out, the world will be a lot more accepting.

The challenge now, as I see it, is to tell that kid that he doesn't have to give up football and his straight friends to be gay, that it's not the defining quality of who he is.

Eldergays, who out of necessity had to bond together into a cohesive community are far more invested in keeping that Judy Garland-Fire Island-Bathhouse-Miss Thang world in place, but in time you will die out.

Not meaning that to be harsh, but it's how these things play out.

r295 there is little time left on the planet for all. we should try unity even more right now.

....

Yeah and as accepted it may seem, especially if you are in urban or artsy circles, remember there are still plenty of kids being kicked out of their houses for being gay -- for religious reasons or just because it's "the last straw". Many have parents that have no business being parents. So it's not all one big parade, gay pride or otherwise.

[quote]The challenge now, as I see it, is to tell that kid that he doesn't have to give up football and his straight friends to be gay, that it's not the defining quality of who he is.

Yep, this is really the frontier of gay rights now: gay men coming out as genuine sports fans. Being gay no longer means you have to run like a girl and scream when the ball comes near you, because they actually have gay football teams now where all 11 players are trying as hard as they can and some are even quite convincing. So don't give up, young gay footballers. You SHALL play with the ball!!!!

R292 Homosexuals can still have sex at 82? Do you need a forklift to get it up?

r264 You sound like a Republican so there isn't much point responding but I'm a sucker for punishment I guess.

Your generation has been telling mine since we were kids that we're expected to go to college. If we didn't we'd spend our lives serving burgers and fries. Damn right I didn't know what I was signing up for when I agreed to take on those loans, I was only fucking 17 when I applied to schools with every adult I knew urging me along. Same goes for my peers.

Yeah you're responsible for the current economy. Maybe indirectly but it's still on you boomers as a whole. Millennials weren't even alive when this snowball started rolling but we're paying the highest price. I get it, life isn't fair Unless you were lucky enough to be a boomer.

R278 I get it, your saying your deadbeat family members swindled the taxpayers. That's unfortunate, but please explain how that is my fault. Put on you big girl panties and do what you can to improve your situation. Maybe set realistic goals and work to achieve them. You can blame boomers, God, rich people, or Republicans, but how will that help you get out of the basement?

Back then coming out as gay made you most certainly a social outcast. Nowdays it gets you followers when you come out on social media.

Times change.

R264 I hear your points and I do not feel angry about your comments. Many of the Boomers got a strong inclination to push back against the truths that surfaced then about American life. Those truths are not particularly different from the truths that many of your generation are also being moved to respond to with action. It is the context and some details that is different.

Yet I also have to say that a great many Boomers never took high paying corporate jobs with great high pay opportunities, nor did we default on student loans. To generalise about an entire generation is inaccurate and only causes you to have misplaced, though understandable, anger. Research it. Find out which of the previous generation, Republican decisions under Reagan and Bush, corporations, AND YES, a segment of the Boomer generation, helped to create some of the unfair challenges you point out. But do not point your finger at all of us. Many of us were working for shit wages as teachers, social workers, nurses, or in other sectors of essentially non- profit employment simply because that has benefitted a great many people, from your generation up through your grandparents' or great grandparents' generations. We weren't ignoring our responsibility to the generations coming up - we were trying to make a higher quality, more aware, and compassionately responded to, life for everyone. Including you, even if you weren't born yet. We cared, and care, that much about you and your children. And your grandchildren.

R264 my apologies, my comment was meant for R301.

R294 I know, right? You nailed it. They can't breathe without their phones and Google.

No, they can't, R306. Ever work with one of them? They are constantly taking a peek at their phones, even when they are banned from work.

[quote]What's still tough is the "regular" kid who is gay, the one who plays Pop Warner football with his friends and has no desire to be different or unique.

[quote]It's still really hard for that kid, even though when and if he finally does come out, the world will be a lot more accepting.

[quote]The challenge now, as I see it, is to tell that kid that he doesn't have to give up football and his straight friends to be gay, that it's not the defining quality of who he is.

What's your deal? You think gay kids just let go of the things they love in order to become a gay stereotype? When they get bullied at their sports team they most likely leave that sports team and look for one that is more gay friendly. Such things can be easily researched on the internet. When straight friends give them a hard time for coming out then it's best to dump them. I never heard of a case where a gay kid dumped his supportive straight friends unless he had to leave the area because his parents kicked him out.

R295 Who knew 'eldergays' were going to "die out"? Please share your stunning insight and tell me how I can live forever like you.

You create your own reality by creating your own community. When you want that mystery and secrecy back then look for like minded people who want the same and be secret and mysterious together. With over 7 billion people on this earth and social media I don't think someone has to believe he's the only one with certain likes or dislikes.

R301 Most likely, I have never met you, but I'm still to blame because you accepted bad advice from some old people that fed you a line of shit? Maybe you should direct your anger at the ones that misguided you instead of blaming the boomers. Would you blame all black people because one black person stole your car? I hope not. Even if you did, would it help you get it back? Time is on your side, use your 'millennial privilege' wisely and take care of your own problems.

R298 Is 'urban' the new word for black- it's hard to keep up these days.

Now is a great time to be gay if you're young, attractive, physically fit, and have a lot of money. Gays who don't have those qualities are looked down by their fellow gays.

R313 you are 100% right. Gay millenials are the most self-serving, judgmental, shallow, superficial of all the gays who have walked the earth. For a minority of people who were oppressed for so many years, you would think there would be a brotherhood. Blacks stick together. Latinos stick together. A brotherhood. Even lesbians are a sisterhood. But gay men? They are the hardest on each other. Critical and mean. They look down on others that don't meet their ridiculous standards. It's embarrassing. And this is why the general straight population has a hard time with gays of this generation. They're pitiful.

r311 Your analogy sucks. This isn't one or two or twenty boomers stealing a fucking car. This is a national crisis caused by boomers both actively and passively by creating or turning a blind eye to a corrupt system that benefited them. Yeah my generation is doing what we can to clean up the messes we had no part in making. While we are the old farts sit back and tell us how entitled and lazy we are for wanting the same standard of living they had at our age.

"Time is on your side". For some of us sure, at least until global warming wipes us out.

r304 I'm sure you're a decent guy but your generation is mostly a bunch of assholes. Sorry. Maybe they were ok when they were younger but they've lost their empathy along with their youth.

I'm done with the LGTV56ZZZ+ and the "fluids" straight girls !!!

[quote]They are obedient consuming robots, being sold a regressive diet and do not know it.

We've reached the point where even some of the cheesiest 1980s sitcoms seem progressive by comparison.

OP is the gay Donald Trump and Roy Moore. MAGA, Good Ol Days. Fuck off.

You missed my point completely R292. The condescension doesn't win you any respect for your point of view either. You're pretty much confirming many young people's point of view about older people.

R315 My point is ...... oh screw it! You win. On behalf of all the boomers, I apologize for ruining your life. Send me the bill for your unpaid student loan. Can't really help you out with the global warming thing, but I will sell my leer jet and stop farting. Hell, I'll even put on my pussy-hat and join you in a screamfest. Together- we can turn the tides!

R318 Your a big meanie-butt and in need of a harsh spanking. Play nice or the big bad Nazis will come for you.

It feels more "taboo" today than it did 40 years ago.

[quote] Being gay no longer means you have to run like a girl and scream when the ball comes near you, because they actually have gay football teams now where all 11 players are trying as hard as they can and some are even quite convincing.

Eldergays still don't get it.

The point is not separate-but-equal.

The point is that the gay kid who likes football should be able to continue to play football with his hetero buddies because being gay is no big deal.

So many DLers are Professional Homosexuals® it's hard for them to imagine a world where being gay is no big deal and not someone's defining characteristic. On DL many of them will lecture us about not having straight friends or trusting straight people. Which is exactly what my black friends tell me their grandparents tell them about white people.

[quote] Would you blame all black people because one black person stole your car? I hope not.

And yet every third Boomer on this thread seems to view Millennials as an indistinguishable lump.

You all are so much more bitter than ElderStraights. The reason for that being that DL attracts a particularly oppressed and unhappy segment of the ElderGay population

[quote]The point is that the gay kid who likes football should be able to continue to play football with his hetero buddies because being gay is no big deal.

Are you saying that running like a girl is no longer a barrier to playing football in non-gay football teams? Well, I suppose that is progress. But this isn't really a new thing. Those rare gay men who, by some cruel joke of nature, were actually genuinely interested in playing sports usually managed to play with the straight boys in the days before all gay football teams and so on. That's always been true.

PS - if being gay is no big deal then why wouldn't a gay football player want to play in an all gay football team? Unless you're acknowledging that a gay football team is, by definition, a shit football team?

[quote] "If being black is no big deal then why wouldn't a black football player want to play in an all black football team? Unless you're acknowledging that a black football team is, by definition, a shit football team?

That's what you sound like R326 along with your notion that gays who like sports and are good at them are rare.

Eldergays are our worst enemies

PS: That was the exact argument used to try and keeps blacks out of baseball and playing in the Negro Leagues.

R323, I agree with you 100%, but their is the other side. Gay men who are not into sports, but into musicals, dolls, needlework, vintage fashion, etc. are still considered damaged. A lot of this is misogyny based on the notion that women and all things feminine are inferior; therefor any man interested in that which is considered "the woman's world" must be damaged. This should no more be a big deal for gays or straights than a gay guy playing football.

[quote]That's what you sound like [R326] along with your notion that gays who like sports and are good at them are rare.

No, that's your notion, love. You say that being gay is "no big deal" but seem to place a higher premium on gay players playing with their "het buddies" instead of playing in a gay team. If it's no big deal, then what is the difference between a gay football team and any other? The inference of your argument is that a gay player would want to play with his "het buddies" because it's a more desirable team to play for and gay teams are, by definition, shit. Anyone who has seen a gay football league in action would agree with you, of course, but it's hypocritical of you to acknowledge as much while trying to claim that it's all no big deal.

R314 You sound pathetic, why wouldn't gay men want physically fit, attractive people with money? No different from straight people, you think people want fat ugly broke slobs? You better get with reality, why would anyone want you without you having anything to put on the table?

r328 Some of us like sports *and* musicals. Crazy right?

r320 Who said my life was ruined? I love my life even with the hardships. If you could stop the farting long enough to help us fight for student debt relief and universal healthcare that would improve things though, thanks in advance.

[quote]PS - if being gay is no big deal then why wouldn't a gay football player want to play in an all gay football team?

What "all gay football team" is that, the Green Bay Dickcheeseheads?

[quote][R328] Some of us like sports *and* musicals. Crazy right?

Not at all. And how long have you been a cheerleader?

R329 and his ilk can't die out soon enough.

Extend his logic and we should have all-black leagues, all-Jewish teams, all-Latino teams.

The point is that being gay shouldn't matter whether you're playing football or cello (why not be in an all-gay orchestra?) or playing video games (an all-gay esports league!)

The whole notion that (a) it's okay to call other men "dear" and similar expressions your old aunts use and (b) gays should be separated from everyone else and in our own special gay-only places-- is dying out quickly and R329 (who has a string of posts on this thread advocating gay separatism) and his ilk will be one for the history books. (The chapter on the evolution of gay rights from the 70s to 20s)

[quote]Extend his logic and we should have all-black leagues, all-Jewish teams, all-Latino teams.

This argument always cracks me up. The inference is that saying something about gay people alone isn't bad enough, it has to be shifted to race in order to appear totally reprehensible. "Imagine if they said that about black people!" etc. You know, there are gay black people, gay Jewish people and gay Latinos, my love?

I'll ask again: if there's nothing wrong with being a gay footballer, why is a gay footballer playing with his "het buddies" so preferable to playing in a gay team?

[quote]Some of us like sports *and* musicals. Crazy right?

Stranger things have happened.

In this fucked up society (that creates all this shame and insecurity about oneself) being gay gives you the great gift of realizing that society is fucked up and it's better to do your own thing in order to love and accept yourself. The danger of society "accepting" gays is that it dictates gays how they are supposed to be in order to fit in.

Society tells you to worship and strive for ideals (looks, wealth, weight, power, wisdom and knowledge, health, fitness, career, etc.) barely anyone can come close to all of them and the result is that people feel like total losers and are sad, ashamed and total insecure messes who lash out at anyone and everybody who they think is in some way better (not realizing that they suffer from the same problem of not coming close to all of the ideals society tells you to strive for).

RADical gays are so intolerant and regressive about mainstream and masculine bi, fluid, and gay dudes. Fitting in triggers them.

The fact is that it is still a problem to be gay. The prejudice has made itself less obvious. If all gay guys wanted to do is to play games with their straight buddies; and gay is no big deal; then why are all the gay athletes still in the closet?

All it's gonna take is some crazy-ass bitches in government (like we have now) to turn things back 40 years for gay people.

One of the things that Millennials need to understand about their elders the boomers, is that the boomers love to hire useful idiots to do the things - like discriminate against others - that they would never admit to wanting in a million years. That's why you don't have education loan reform or meaningful healthcare.

You're not going to get it until your generation storms the ramparts - from the local school board on up - and kicks out all the mercenaries. But what I imagine will happen instead is the Millennials will become just as co-opted as their parents did.

Newsflash bitches! Homosexuality will never be 'mainstream'. It will always be a tiny subculture of any society. What part of procreation do you not understand. Who's gonna birth the babies? Do you really think 97 percent of the entire world will ever consider you to be anything other than an oddity? Straight people may accept you and even love you as they would an autistic child, but you will never be a mainstream sector of society. You are simply a small voting bloc and a trendy fashion accessory for virtue signaling liberals. If your gay, love yourself and live your life. Just don't pretend that homosexuality is "normal" and that any straight person can truly relate to you on a sexual level.

Recent surveys in the UK and US reveal anywhere from 20% to about half of Millennials and Gen Zers Report they are attracted to the same-sex. It’s mainstream.

HALF? Bullshit.

All the gay acceptance of Gay Millennials and Gen Whatever is nice, but it is one step forward, two steps back as they swallow the regressive homophobic and sexist trans propaganda with zero critical thinking. Those potential gay numbers will certainly shrink as a certain growing percentage decides they are "trans."

R341 Fake News! Maybe in San Francisco and even that's a far stretch.

[quote]Thank God I was there for the last hurrah. I had so much fucking fun. On my knees surrounded by 6-7 HOT and OK guys fucking my face bukkake style or joining 2-3 hot guys running a train on a hot bottom.

You expect people to envy you for this? What a vacuous, shallow degenerate you are.

Your statistics are completely FAKE news. Do some REAL research. Fake news is dangerous.

How are heterosexuals expected to accept homosexuality when there is so little acceptance and tolerance amongst gay people themselves? And for a demographic that doesn't like to be labeled we sure have a lot of labels for other gays and for straights as well.

Homosexuality will never be considered "normal" If it was, human beings would have never been able to procreate. It's just the hand are dealt.

"How are heterosexuals expected to accept homosexuality when there is so little acceptance and tolerance amongst gay people themselves?"

Excellent question. Gay activists on DL refuse to tolerate their fellow gays having a different point of view on anything. They have to think and vote a certain way or they're targeted. It's not enough to be gay and support your brothers and sisters however they're able to, they expect gays in the heartland to swish and shout their sexuality from the rooftops. They have to support certain candidates even when those candidates are destructive to the nation as a whole, which would eventually rebound on gays.

Good point R347

[quote]They have to support certain candidates even when those candidates are destructive to the nation as a whole, [bold]which would eventually rebound on gays[/bold].

You mean like Trump and his pals.

R347 It's all about dick and riding the victim train to these liberal nutjobs. They're clueless and refuse to accept adult dialog.

I am truly afraid that you are right, r225.

I really feel sorry for you eldergay. If you want to indulge in a bit of nostalgia you could always introduce yourself to the Westboro Baptist Church or move to the Ukraine or Russia.

At 46 I guess I'm considered an eldergay but that whole cruising/sex in public places thing never appealed to me, it always seemed sad and desperate.

Some folks like being outcasts and weird

Yeah I know R354, I avoid those people, they're usually very tedious and very depressing.

The ones who like being outcasts and weird in in terms of circus freaks or pets are "genderqueer' and T. Has nothing to do with independent self-respecting homosexual individuals.

all the squabbling in here proves one thing. that all you identity politics crew serve your masters well. divide and conquer. everybody hates everybody. they win. period. we had a chance to fight the real enemy but we blew it. now their heavily armed and militarized (trump gave them back military surplus) police force (that we paid for!) will crush us at any sign of dissent. wow congrats the real enemy. won! pat your squabbling selves on the back. well done.

R357 We did beat the real enemy-Remember? Hillary lost. Stay woke!

ELDERGAYS : do you know something about the privacy of RICHARD COX (actor of Cruising, King of the mountain etc....) ? Does anyone know him personally ?

Is this creeper thread still going?

(R360) I think it will still going as no precise answer to the question...But, I understand this "thread" because we have a tons of threads about Kevin Spacey (for instance) and absolutely nothing regarding R.Cox (except the "Cruising 1980" thread of 2015), however Cox is gay or is it a "fake news" ????

I can understand where OP is coming from in that it seems there was a real sense of community back then, us versus the world.

That said, OP is falling into a very common nostalgia trap of only remembering the good things, not the bad.

And there were a whole lot of bad things.

HOMOSEXUALITY was interesting and brilliant when it was subversive....Sorry, but now "gays" want to get married and have kids : where are the JEAN GENET, JEAN PAUL ARON, OSCAR WILDE, MICHEL FOUCAULT etc etc etc....???????

Am I an eldergay at 39? I’m not a millenialgay. Xgay?

To me you are not an eldergay, you still are very young. An eldergay it's when you are 69.....

thanks for the eustace mullins post, big fan, had forgotten bout him, luv his stuff, tho he is a bit square in sum Str8 ways....his gay theory is of course OFF.

his take on the $ masters who rules us is on point.

he was best buds with the brilliant poet, ezra pound.

Dear Eldergays, can you tell me why, some of you, marry women and have children with a surrogate mother ? Can you "lightened" me ?

Who said we wanted to blend in? I want equal rights, yes, but that doesn't mean I want to blend in. Like I said before, coming out of the closet in the 90s while in college was such a freeing wonderful moment. Being gay was fun and we were special. It meant something to be out because it was mostly frowned upon. That excitement Is gone now. And that's a fact. I'm glad we have the rights we have now but that doesn't change what was fun about being out in that era.