How are the psychiatrists, counselors, and psychotherapists you know mentally unwell?

A psychologist friend says it's well known that a certain percentage of people in the counseling profession are batshit crazy. "They start out by trying to fix themselves", she explained.

Or they have a family member with mental illness.

Anyone else know anyone crazy or odd in the mental health profession?

My brother in law is a psychologist with his own practice. Lovely guy but always sick. I'm not sure if he's got an underactive immune system or a bit of hypochondria.

It's probably hypochondria, and because he comes into contact with so many people in public R4.

A dominatrix named Magdalene used to post here, and she said some of her worst clients were psychiatrists/psychologists, very jealous and some were stalkers, IIRC.

As a Grad student I was required to assist a few of the Psychology professors at my school. The experimental design people were control freaks, it became pointless to grade those papers because the professor would just do it again afterward. We had another whose office was cited more than once by the Fire department as a hazard because of stacks of papers everywhere like a hoarder. He was a really nice guy but his office was frightening. There was another who got fired for kissing an older lady student, one who was manic depressive, I can't remember the rest. The understanding was both among those people and the other people in the department that they get into the field to try to solve their own problems.

I will post in 3 parts so bear with me. As a peer and student I have found, the men are the more "mentally ill" but undiagnosed. The women I notice are just quirky/weird and don't have good outlets for their anger. They actually fuck their clients more though. I will identify myself IRL if I provide too many details because some of the people were sued or were authors. I knew many of these people as teachers, classmates, or co-workers. I will post about the ones that evidenced gross ethical violations beyond mere awkwardness.

1) Narcissism and Psychopathy. This guy was a married closet homosexual/sex addict. He was never a homophobe , but he was ashamed of his sexuality. He used to take one of the most covert ways to get around town , and one only would use that particular route if you were "having late nite fun with guy friends". I saw him come from there on 3 occasions, and on the 3rd time it was clear he was fucking someone in high school ( the kid was stupid leaving the spot). His Narcissism took the form of being overly enlightened . He always and I mean always, had a quote/saying to chastise any behavior he didn't like. He was delicate with it, but when you pay attention to what he did it became apparent his responses were tailored to guilt/shame people and make them listen to him. He was a Taoist and spoke quite often of Self-actualizing. I guess in the end he was a better theorist than practitioner. PhD in Experimental/Clinical Psychology.

2) Narcissism and Borderline PD. I spoke about this guy before. He loved the power he got from "fixing" people and looking at problems and judging them. He could tap into people's insecurities and chameleon himself in a way that was exploitative. He had a particular way with his female patients that made them "need " him. Which always made me side eye him a bit when he of all people gave a lecture on transference and ethics. He was eventually fired after he fucked the wrong damn chick. Silly little male Borderline forgot one does not simply fuck a female Borderline and discard her. Once she cried victim others came forward, and he was suddenly fired. He and his wife moved to another state. She had built up her practice over 5 years , so it wasn't just a sudden whim to change careers like that. On top of being a super flirt, he maintained a beautiful body in his 40's which is always a red flag. His wife was a submissive enabler with an eating disorder. PhD in Counseling Psychology.

3) Social anxiety. This guy married his therapist , but he has such an inflated ego (though he is not a narcissist ) that he never out grew his infantile behavior /mindset. He is ugly. Super ugly ! However, he would be super nice to the prettiest and most compliant females. He got in a bit of trouble when an ultra feminist complained that some visiting professors were teaching classes reserved for tenure-track professors. Nearly all his very blonde, very pretty former students returned every year to teach some class. He spited the smart (and usually defiant) female professors who would not placate his ego by reducing their teaching hours. PhD in Neuroscience from a top 100 University.

^ The " She had built up .." refers to his wife. She was a therapist as well , and they had a joint practice. I left that part out in error .

4) Borderline PD and Bipolar - 2 ( he was very open about his Bipolar 2 ). He reminded me a lot of #3. Idk what it is about extreme introverted men and wanteing to be fuckable all their lives, but it's a thing . He was married at least 3 times (all ending in divorce) to women always under 35, and had about 6 kids from at least 4 different women. He was a hoarder such that you could not get into his office, and he always chose extremely pushy , extroverted women as wives. He chose submissive types for his fuck toys. He was addicted to money as well. The guy didn't need it as his royalties were over 50,000 a year at their worst . He apparently used to binge spend on stupid , lavish things(a fact brought up in his last divorce). The weirdest thing he did was favor his 13 year old son who he considered a puss hound ( he didn't use those terms but we knew what he meant) and a genius. He almost never acknowledged his 30 something year old daughter from his first marriage who had a PhD in Neurology, despite her managing to get published at an age before her father. He also seldom spoke of his other sons who were also accomplished. Something about his "hot" ladies man son at 13 !!!!!!!! was so wonderous of an accomplishment that it needed to be noted at every fucking office gathering . PhD in Clinical Psychology.

5) Angry black man! He is hypercompetitive and not bright. He likes judging his clients and garnering attention from "being deep". He likes gossiping about his clients (no-no #1). He is bisexual but will never admit it; thus, he over compensates for his masculinity in a way that is annoying . You will know when he is going hunting, to a gun show, to a concert with this woman or that woman, etc etc , and yes you will endure his loud ass recanting of the fun he had. His father was highly abusive to his mother , and his mother was overly nurturing to him. Every female the Mr. Asshole dated was non-assertive and an emotional train wreck.

A counselor ought never schadenfreude his own clients (no-no #2). I used to say to myself :

I know that person's treatment plan shouldn't be that long, but I get it Asshole, something about a hot semi-pro athlete with depression makes you curious. I get it, I really do ; but he's the 8th client you've deviated from standard procedure on :). I guess wealthy black men need twice as many sessions as other men. What is it about other black men with millions of dollars , nice houses, and cars that makes you so very curious???? M.A. in Counseling Psychology.

I saw this with a woman (lesbian) I used to work with. She left the entertainment field and went and got her masters in Psychology.

We were working on a show together and this married woman started flirting with her. At first she made a big deal in explaining to me how she would never go after a married woman, that didn't last long. She started messing with this woman and the woman's husband followed his wife to my friends house where he busted through a window and started throwing my friend around. My friend, for some reason, appealed to her ex to let her stay with her because she was too afraid to go back to her house. While staying with her ex, and her ex's girlfriend, she hooked up with her ex's girlfriend. They moved out and got a place together. Sounds like typical dyke drama I know but the lies this girl told, and the lies I uncovered sometime after, were numerous.

So she decided to study psychology and while she was getting her masters I would have conversations with her where it was clear to me she was using what she was learning to better manipulate things. Bitch is fucking dangerous.

^wanteing = wanting * in post R11.

Connie McCashin, R12?

I find the counselors only want to help those who are like them.

R8-R11 did the hebephile who was having sex with a young HS student get arrested?

When I was in medical school (within the past decade...), about one-third of the psychiatrists I interacted with were obviously narcissists or significantly enriched in Cluster B traits . The rest were generally very nice and sensitive people who were at least partially if not fully burnt-out (unless they went into administration and then they had only a very small private practice). I went to a very well known Ivy League school (totally regretted going there, overpaid for a shitty education, I had no idea I was just paying for the fancy name...) with a surprising number of proud old-school Freudian psychoanalysts...Evidenced based psychiatry? Most of them seemed like they never heard of the concept.

The psychologists I interacted with seemed nicer and more psychologically healthy, but I only worked with a small number of them, so my experience is probably not that representative.

Please tell me more R17. Which Ivy League school did you attend?

The old saying was "A psychiatrist is a dr who hates the sight of blood." But you could say the same about radiologists and pathologists.

Did you know that insurance companies used to pay for psychotherapy 5 days a week? It's true. Psychiatry was one of the most lucrative professions around. They also used to be on staff at psych hospitals. My bf's brother is schizo and back when there were lots of psych hospitals, the psychiatrists at his psych hospital used to get $100 for "medication management." Never had to see the patient. Just ask the nurse "How's Mr Smith doing?" "He's fine." "Ok, don't change his medication." Ding --$100. We're talking late 80s/early 90s.

So if a doctor went to the psych hospital 5 days a week and wrote in the charts of 10 patients each day, that was a cool $5k a week. Not bad for something that took 5 minutes per patient.

Then the psychiatrist would see people in "regular" hospitals. They had to see every attempted suicide. Other than that, they would see patients with dementia (they ordered all the Haldol), patients who were exhibiting antisocial behavior, patients going through the DTs, weepy/jittery patients with anxiety, and any patient who way taking psych meds before admission.

Then add the patients they saw in their private practices. You're talking about a good deal of money.

Managed care, the closing of psych hospitals, lawsuits and the field of geriatric medicine cut down drastically on the salaries of psychiatrists. Very few doctors go into psychiatry today because of this. Most of them don't do therapy. They prescribe medications and have NPs working for them who see the patients after the initial visit who mess with the meds after that. They still visit patients in hospitals, but pretty much only the ones who were on major psych meds before admission.

Yes I did know that r20.

R17 I think I know which Ivy you went to. Most of my professors came from the Great Lakes region for undergrad and Ivies for grad. My longest mentor is similar to what you describe.

No R16 Mr . Guru did not and likely never will (SoL) . He was very cautious by nature. I have decent gaydar and he never pinged in the slightest. I only figured out what he was doing because I used to hate 4:30-6pm traffic and learned as many alternate routes to get around town. Most people used the highway , so I wanted to avoid that. I would read maps during lab when I wasn't busy ( I got lost a lot when I first lived in the city ). The road to the hook up spot was along a bike/running path which I used to use to run ~5k as I had trouble sleeping. You can hear/see any car that uses " that road" . The teen used that road like a dummy ( the cops very seldom monitored it, usually it was some frau who called in). The more experienced night whores used an alternate route (which my co-worker had to). I figured out it was my co-worker when I finally saw his very odd car one day, and it was like a lightbulb moment because it was the same car I saw a few times leaving what had to be "that spot". It became obvious when he was having a hook up after that by how he scheduled his meetings, and sometimes by looking at his tires in the morning.

If Guru was confronted he would turn it into a lesson on forgiveness and the eternal struggle for self-actualizing. He likely would be forced to resign as I doubt he ever fucked anyone under 16 though . Mr Guru had a penchant for finding damaged/needy types, so it's likely the teen would protect him. Even under the most ardent scrutiny he would turn it into a lecture on " morality is a reflection of time/society which is therefore not a universal truth, thus it's subjective/amendable." Guess how I know? He did similar shit anytime he was questioned about his shady dealings (missing money and fraudulent documents) . Guilt and shame were his weapons with charisma and a good speaking voice as his last line of defense. It worked very well sadly.

Disordered people, specifically Cluster B (anti-socials, borderlines, narcissists, psychopaths, sociopaths, etc) are attracted to professions and specific jobs/roles where they have power over others AND where they will be able to abuse that power and not be held accountable; their word against the "mental" patient, the victim of a disordered crazy, or a patient with ADD, PTSD, Bi-polar disorder, or other diagnosed patient.

They typically stay just behind the line, or maybe right on the line of legal vs illegal, ethical vs unethical, instead of actually crossing the line and risking losing their license, not too mention dealing with the ugly exposure and potential legal trouble. It is the power and control that Cluster B's seek and crave. Many judges, law enforcement and CEO's are Cluster B's.

But they will rarely enter professions or accept jobs where the ability to abuse their power AND also get away with it is non-existent. They are not drawn to those those types of careers. That's why most (not all, but most) politicians and leaders are Cluster B's. They crave the power and control (along with the ability to get away with abuse of power) like a heroin addict craves heroin.

I don't know what percentage of mental health professionals are mentally unwell, but based upon my personal experiences, if I had to guess, I'd say somewhere between a third and half.

One of the crazier women I worked with years ago suddenly left our company. I ran into her a few years later when I was at an industry conference in a large hotel, and she was at some psychotherapists' meeting that was on a different floor. I was astonished when she told me she was nearly done with her schooling.....I would never listen a word of advice she would offer because she was crazy, crazy, crazy and I've always felt bad if anyone actually paid money to see her.

I have a frenemy whose father was a very well-respected psychiatrist in NYC. He was a cold narcissist, according to her. I’d only met him three times in 30-odd years, and he came off as very arrogant. The mother was a social worker and she was a narcissist for sure. I knew her a lot better and she was a total cunt.

My frenemy is one of the most neurotic people I’ve ever met. Not sure if her parents did that to her or what. I can go one for hours and paragraphs about these mental health professionals and their family dynamics. Crazy crazy shit. My family seemed nuts until I met these people. I can’t believe people this dysfunctional can even EXIST.

Remember the show “The Munsters”, and how they thought normal people were weird and the normal people were blown away by how weird the Munsters were? It was like that. I’d have to remind myself to be polite and not stare with my mouth hanging open when dealing with them.

As part of the graduate school admissions process all students should have to go through a series of psychological testing; oral and written and a series of interviews, along with a non-invasive fMRI brain scan. If the requirement, aside from grades/GPA, was that one had to be normal/non-disordered and mentally stable/healthy in order to enter the mental health field we wouldn't have crazy people treating and counseling patients, who are essentially their victims, not their patients. But as long as they have the money and the grades, anyone, even a psychopath, can become a therapist, psychologist or psychiatrist.

My own shrink rambles on and on and wouldnt stop talking about how stressed she is and how she has a son who sounds like he is in the spectrum. Then after I listen to her for 1 hour, she charges me $150 so i can get my rx. Ive since ordered my meds online.

They're attracted to the field for a reason. Luckily, you go to see them for their skill-set and not much more than that. Those who can separate their skills from themselves are usually pretty good therapists. But if you're looking for a therapist, or anyone else for that matter, who doesn't have their share of issues issues, good luck to you, bitch.

R25 how were that man and his family members so weird and dysfunctional?

R8-11 how do you know the black guy was bisexual but in total denial about it?

R28, yes they ALL have issues, which ones do you have? Or which Psychotherapists have you met who had the worst issues who brought them into their client's lives or during sessions? My friend and his sister saw a psychotherapist and they both said how sometimes during therapy sessions the guy would talk about himself, his life, etc. not just in passing, and I told them to find someone else instead.

I knew a shrink who would frequently get into fights with store clerks and waiters. I got beat up once because of this. It was hard to imagine him treating patients.

Uhhhhh...is OP a $cieno trying to discredit the field, or something?

Nope R31, I just was wondering as I have heard from friends about their therapists who have issues.

R17: Harvard?

^ rug strewN

I know a counselor, they are one of the MOST narcissistic and self absorbed people I have ever met.

They also have an eating disorder, anxiety disorder, depression, addictive personality/issues with substance abuse, and have some obsessive thoughts.

I almost went on a date with a psychiatrist. He unlocked the car doors and I pulled the passenger door open to find the car seat and floor covered in used Kleenex. I said "Oh shit" and he brushed some of them off on the floor and said "sorry". I said " Jesus Christ that is so nasty". He got all pompous and said "Well I don't know how we are going to get to the restaurant if you don't get in". I told him there is you and there is me, there is no we and I left. It still makes my skin crawl thinking about it. I'll Mary myself.

Oh, I KNOW someone like that, r36. Also a therapist. His car is constantly littered w/kleenex because of his allergies. But TTYTT, your refusal to get in his car makes you sound more neurotic than either of them.

This thread popped up at an eerie time for me.

A “straight” acquaintance of mine a few months ago started making vague sexual passes at me and then suddenly ghosted me. His mother posts a lot of stuff about psychology, especially bipolar disorder, on his Facebook. He is also in school for psychology.

I wonder if he got into psychology as an outlet for understanding his repressed sexuality.

Okay, OP, but it's my understanding that those in the field of psychology, psychiatry, etc. aren't so very different from the rest of the population. Everyone on the planet is at least a little messed up and could benefit from introspection and from working towards self-betterment. In the general population there are jerks and there are both treated and untreated mentally ill people. The same goes for therapists, although they have their own therapists to help them. There are good doctors and bad doctors; there are good teachers and bad teachers. Even researching someone's credentials doesn't guarantee success. I hope this puts your question in better perspective.

Honestly, I have a diagnosis myself and have used the services of many a p-doc and therapist in my day, most of whom were above board and reasonable, with the occasional being prone to "eccentricities". There was ONE FREAK I met however, and this was in college. Psych Major (can't remember if pre-med to) certainly brilliant. Anorexic. "I can't help it I eat like a bird". Sexually fixated. To her side hip boyfriend:"My pussy itches, honey my pussy itches, will you scratch it again?" Into threesomes they picked up with increasing ( younger) partners. She's now a tenured professor of psychology at the same University. The mind reels.

Many gay therapists are a joke. I know a few who are druggies/tweakers and one who killed himself. I’ve had one stable gay therapist but basically I stay away from them. Most are unstable.

My only really successful attempt at therapy was with a gay psychiatrist.

Well, there are always EXCEPTIONS.

One psychiatrist in particular who would procure hot young male patients for himself and his partner. When they were done with them, these guys would get tossed out like yesterday's garbage.

R29 for the same reason almost no gay would argue with the assertion , " I have never met a str8 homophobe." Over compensation is born out of inadequacy / insecurity. He doesn't appreciate women, but wears this nice guy persona to lure in the gullible ones. There are some men who are 4's who believe they deserve/can fuck a 8 or above. Even if reasonable people know better, legitimate str8 men don't let the gap in looks stop them. This guy almost never picks a woman based on her looks (how most competitive str8 men pick their mates), he waits to see how to exploit them . He is a 6 , but he never dates above a 5. I have slept with too many men in their late 30's to know the type, and the way he seeks approval from assertive men is what you would expect of a mean girl who wants to be the jock's cum dumpster.

When not in the prescience of "alpha" men he's too emotional/feminine. Like I said earlier, he gossips too damn much about his clients. He's someone that had to work very hard to do "man things". He doesn't really enjoy hunting, but because southern men are expected to do it, he does it. Men who hunt (deer mostly down here) are super invested in it. They study almanacs and track the weather. They have gear, pheromones, all kinds of gadgets to gauge wind direction/speed etc. This guy doesn't . He only talks about it when our regional contractor (also former Army) is present. Yet, he doesn't discuss it with the 4 other men we know who hunt. All of them are 5's and below. That's just one example off the top of my head. I can go on but it will be the same. Whatever the hot contractor likes, angry black guy suddenly has an interest in and becomes super chatty.

I REALLY wish people in the field would keep posting in this thread, the contributions here so far have been illuminating, and fascinating.

[quote]When not in the prescience of "alpha" men

"Alpha" men KNOW him.

R25, I think we know the same person, perhaps...

R40 and R44 are these people hebephiles?

[quote] part of the graduate school admissions process all students should have to go through a series of psychological testing;

My husband is a psychotherapist and he was required to see a shrink in grad school and a few years after. Don't know if they still do that in NY but they did in the early 80s

I s2g I had an autistic counsellor in college when I fell into grief-related depression. I only went twice, it was so distressing.

It was shitty p2p campus counselling for free so I wasn’t expecting a lot, but still more than a creepy SocialSci student who stared at me unblinking and literally wouldn’t speak unless I did. He also had funky B.O, kept his ‘room’ blinds closed and once snapped at me for “whining”. Awful.

Sorry to hear you went through that R51. When I saw a free counselor in college she was helpful, professional, and her office was clean and well lit.

R41 I have a friend that when he was a young adult coming out, went to see a gay therapist. He had transference and thought he fell in love with the therapist, and they wound up having sex together. The therapist was later caught sexually abusing his underage clients and is a pedophile/hebephile.

In a similar vein, most nutritionists and food experts typically had eating disorders.

R45 a lot of straight guys pick the girl who seems friendly or "available" (easy) and usually with a good body, not the one they have no chance with. I'm not sure if you're talking about one night stands or long term relationships though.

The numbers scale isn't set in stone. People have types and favorite features that other people don't. Do the women resemble each other or are they all just unattractive or average?

I'm not surprised by this at all R54. My friend's wife is a nutritionist and she does not have an eating disorder but she freely admits that she does not follow any of the advice she gives to her clients about eating balanced meals, limiting caffeine intake, etc.

The only nutritionist I know of is overweight. The dieticians I know of actually know nothing about what a real healthy, balanced meal is. They just know what to avoid/limit based upon the medical condition. But for hospitalized patients on a regular diet they feed them crap including chemical concoction fake eggs and carb-free bread and microwaved processed food entrees.

The only two LCSW/Social Workers I know personally; two are narcissists, and the other is a classic sociopath.

The only psychologist I personally know (and who is in private practice) claims narcissists/narcissism isn't really all that bad. "They're just a little self-centered" he says. Apparently, he was never bullied by one, worked with one, raised by one, raised with one, dated one, or married to one. They are a nightmare. A fucking hellish nightmare. There's no such thing as a safe narcissist = oxymoron.

At least they try.

The insane manipulator you talk about R12 is scarily manipulative. RUN DON'T WALK from people like that

R57 how is the one LCSW/Social Workers a classic sociopath? Does he/she try to get their clients to keep going to see them for years or decades, to get them to keep paying as a client, even though the clients may have resolved their issues or need to see an actual therapist, or a psychiatrist for medications?

Yes narcissists are bad people. I was dated/partnered to one briefly, and one of my former friends is one. Yes they do bully others, or try to make EVERYTHING about them even if you've had major life changing events or issues they pretend to offer you sympathy but really it's just so they get attention, and then of course they quickly switch the topic or issue back to them. Some of them also act as though they're akin to royalty or celebrities, or something like that, and some act as though they're above the law and highly educated when in reality they are just narcissists with extremely low self esteem that have to brag and constantly talk about themselves.

One of my friends was raised by a narcissistic and he and his siblings went to live with the other parent instead who is not a narcissist and they all basically have no contact at all with their other parent who is a narcissist and toxic.

R12 that woman sounds crazy, extremely manipulative and very dangerous like R59 said. I hope you and the married woman and her husband all stay far away from her.

R12 asking for a friend; was this girl American, in her early-mid 30s at the time? I know someone similar.

I had a great gay therapist (LCSW). He had a drinking problem he kept under control until he went off the Antabuse when he had to have prostate surgery. Led to being arrested for drunk driving and being in the local cruising park at 2 a.m. Two suicide attempts, the second one successful.

But he was a great therapist and a sweet man when he could function. I still miss him.

R55 they are overwhelmingly average and below. I place great emphasis on the below. He can do better, but purposely doesn't. For example, if Morris Chestnut or Blair Underwood (in their primes) are turning down Paula Patton, Brook Shields , & Deborah Ann Woll for Cheryl Underwood, Sarah Huckabee Sanders , & Rachel Dratch you tend to notice. He actively friend-zones the more attractive women who flirt with him; that's the main reason I found it odd.

Str8 men don't turn down pussy generally , and if they know a woman is interested they at least indulge the flirtations. He doesn't with the attractive ones to the point it's a noticeable trend. He is usually in a relationship , and they seldom last longer than a year. Of course, it's usually the woman's fault *eye roll* . If he wanted one night stands he could have a plethora of them as he most certainly loves telling us about which client wants him (and the women do genuinely want to fuck him). Additionally, he has access to women from all walks of life/ranges of attractiveness ; yet , he still loves going not just after the unattractive ones, but unattractive and overly accommodating (willing to tolerate him being the center of their world and always right ) .

I don't know if you read my earlier posts but Angry Black Guy had a highly abusive father and overly nurturing mother (I've met both and the dad is an insufferable tool). I strongly suspect he picks those overly accommodating women because he can verbally and mentally abuse them , and they will tolerate it.

I hope more people who work in the mental health field reply.

Anyone else?

I am not a psychiatrist or psychologist, but I do question the sanity of them. For example, take the DSM, which is produced by them ---psychiatrists and psychologists. They lump mental illness in with personality disorders when they are not the same. They also confuse the issue as the victims of a psychopath or sociopath are labeled "mentally Ill' all because of their reaction to these toxic, abusive, manipulative people, especially those who develop an anxiety disorder due to the abuse.

The chronic anxiety disorder is considered a mental illness when chronic anxiety is actually a very normal reaction to the manipulation and abuse. Remove the perpetrator from the victims' life and voila, the anxiety gradually and eventually vanishes. They make a mountain out of a molehill and medicate the victims, as if they are crazy for reacting to the abuse.

So no, I do not have a whole lot of confidence or faith in today's mental health experts.

They make something that could be streamlined/simple so complicated for the lay person to learn, understand and comprehend and apply in their everyday lives. In the DSM they've even managed to fuse certain disorders when there was no symptom overlap. They create a whole new disorder all because of a specific negative behavior, just one and a whole new disorder develops and is added to the latest DSM. For example, the difference between those diagnosed with Borderline Personality Disorder aren't all that much different from those with NPD, Narcissistic Personality Disorder. One example of several. Yet they devise a whole new disorder and complicate something that can be spelled out so simply.

Plus, even the experts agree to disagree. They don't agree on *many* disorders and psychological issues or the etiology of them. So there's that too.

One of the "many" is that psychopathy and sociopathy are so close (not identical but close enough) that the terms can be used interchangeably. Some say yes, and others say no.... the latter is because some experts claim that there are clear and discernible differences. But they are even divided on that issue. There isn't much these experts agree on. Instead of clarifying and simplifying, they complicate.

In addition, a surprising number of these mental health experts have never lived with (or worked under) a sociopath or psychopath, or other crazy, toxic disordered person, under the same roof, where they would be preaching about them from an experiential point of view, not just a clinical one. Unless you've either lived with these people long-term or worked for them long-term (meaning a few years) you really don't know what their victims know. An occasional unpleasant encounter doesn't count. Neither does one sitting across from you in your office every week, on your leather sofa, where they lack the ability to abuse, overpower, alter your mind, and ruin your life because you are in charge and they have no power over you. The doctor is in charge. The doctor is not their victim.

Most mental health experts' patients are not psychopaths and sociopaths or anti-socials, and other disordered people. That's because these toxic, abusive crazies don't want to be diagnosed. Some go into therapy to play head games with the doctor, but most do not attend. They fear being diagnosed and don't want that on their record. They fear the exposure. So most of their patients are the victims of disordered people who mistakenly think that they are the crazy one. The experts are getting a second-hand account, not an up-close and personal account, along with real-life insights. JMO on the matter.