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Attitude: It’s time to stop Femme-Shaming Gay Men

“Straight-acting seeks same,” “No femmes,” “Not into camp.”

You don’t have to scroll down very far to see phrases like these on gay hook-up apps such as Grindr or Hornet. They highlight a queasiness towards femininity that, as a camp man myself, I find insulting and concerning in equal measures.

It’s one of the reasons I wanted to devote the latest issue of Attitude to exploring how gay men feel about their masculinity. We started by commissioning a survey among our readers and, in less than four days, received an amazing 5,000 responses.

There were some troubling results.

The survey seems to suggest that the insecurity we feel about our masculinity is dividing the gay community and turning us against each other. Forty-one per cent of those who responded reported that being gay had made them feel less like a man at some point in their lives, which is worrying enough in itself.

But it may also partly explain the fact that the same number of people admitted to thinking effeminate gay men give the LGBT+ community a poor image or bad reputation. Comedians such as Graham Norton and Alan Carr have already spoken out about feeling femme-shamed by other gay men – and it appears they have grounds.

Matters are not helped when you see that 92 per cent of gay men said they still feel our masculinity is mocked by the mainstream media. I’m old enough to remember the likes of the closeted John Inman and Larry Grayson playing up their campness for laughs, while their catchphrases were used to taunt me in the school playground. Although stereotypes such as these are no longer considered acceptable and rarely found, clearly there’s still an issue with a more covert femme-shaming operating against us. Another of the responses that struck me is the 71 per cent who said they’ve been turned off by signs of femininity in a man. It backs up the experience so many of us have had on hook-up apps or the dating scene. And it reflects the difficult relationship so many of us have with our masculinity.

But why should we let expectations about how we should look or act as men make us feel bad about ourselves?

Throughout history a traditional understanding of masculinity as strong, powerful and dominant has fuelled war, oppression and destruction. And you only have to look at the exploitation scandals of the past fortnight to see how it’s continuing to cause division and suffering.

Society’s understanding of what it means to be a man is constantly evolving and you only have to look at the mainstream media again to see how many straight men are struggling to adapt to their new role in society now that women are gradually inching towards equality.

We may be gay, bi or queer but we are also men. And I’d argue that the situation is worse for us, given that we are attracted to our own sex – so can project our desire for an idealised version of masculinity back onto ourselves. It’s not difficult to draw a straight line from this to feelings of insecurity, anxiety and worthlessness that all have the potential to be more intense for us than they are for heterosexual men. And if we believe the results of various studies conducted recently, this is indeed the case.

For me, the traditional understanding of masculinity is to blame. And I believe this is not only toxic but outdated. It originated during a time when the human race was much less civilised and it made sense to divide us into two distinct groups based on our reproductive functions. But the trans movement has taught us that gender is so much more than this. And as human beings, we are more than just our gender.

I’d love it if we could move away from an understanding of gender as binary and leave behind all expectations of how a man should behave. This would benefit us all, whatever our gender or sexuality.

After analysing the results of our survey, I stopped short of coming to any firm conclusions regarding exactly what masculinity is because that isn’t interesting – the whole point is to go beyond it.

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by Anonymousreply 57March 21, 2019 12:50 AM

Ah, this topic again. Round and round we go.

by Anonymousreply 1November 9, 2017 3:40 PM

So people aren't allowed to only fuck who they're attracted to? If some random wants to fuck you, you're not allowed to say no. How is that different to rape?

by Anonymousreply 2November 9, 2017 3:41 PM

I would MUCH rather fuck a woman than a femme gay.

by Anonymousreply 3November 9, 2017 3:44 PM

Sexual entitlement, as usual.

by Anonymousreply 4November 9, 2017 3:45 PM

Ohh please Femme shaming problem is so 90s and 2000s.

Biggest problem femme gay people are facing these days is permanent erasure of them .

Fame whore suburban mothers and homophobic fathers are determining that their femme son is not actually a boy but a girl .

But homophobic/fame-whore parents will prefer neutered straight girl then a perfectly healthy femme gay son . So they start pumping harmful hormone suppressant into kids which may cause permanent physical and mental problem to their perfectly healthy kids

And poor femme kids don't have much say about this . Their only fault is that they want to play with dolls and wear girls cloth sometimes .

by Anonymousreply 5November 9, 2017 3:48 PM

It's time to stop "femme"-shaming men in general. It's also time to stop assuming that "if a man is feminine he's gay" or "if a man is masculine he's straight" and "oh yeah, where are the bisexuals?" It's also time to drop the "masculine" and "feminine" adjectives and associations with behaviour because most men and women do not, at all, embody these stereotypes unless they are trying to. <-- All annoying.

People are people and everyone is different. We aren't carbon copies of each other based on sex. It should all go away.

by Anonymousreply 6November 9, 2017 3:54 PM

I used to be one of those in search of another “straight acting” male until I realized that the “fems” are the ones who actually know what they’re doing in bed. They can suck the rust off a tailpipe and they’re always clean and ready to get fucked. So now I’m not as choosy. But still I push them to butch it up a little bit sometimes.

by Anonymousreply 7November 9, 2017 3:56 PM

R2 nails it.

by Anonymousreply 8November 9, 2017 4:26 PM

R7, good for you man, but most of us who are only attracted to masculine guys are not so sexually crude and reductionist about our attractions. If I am not innately psychologically and physically attracted to a guy, it’s irrelevant how well he can perform sex acts

by Anonymousreply 9November 9, 2017 5:26 PM

If he’s a handsome male, then why wouldn’t you be attracted to him in some way?

by Anonymousreply 10November 9, 2017 5:32 PM

R10, there may be initial attraction to a Handsome guy, But once he exhibits feminine mannerisms or characteristics, the attraction instantly is extinguished.

by Anonymousreply 11November 9, 2017 5:52 PM

It’s not fem-shaming to be only attracted to masculine males

by Anonymousreply 12November 9, 2017 6:02 PM

As DL always says, those who claim to be masc have a million purses fall out of their mouths the moment they open them.

by Anonymousreply 13November 9, 2017 6:08 PM

Some but definitely not all

by Anonymousreply 14November 9, 2017 6:20 PM

The root of all this is internalised homophobia.

Two dicks on so called 'masc', 'straight-acting' , 'bros' etc. Will never make society think they'really more masculine than a straight male.

by Anonymousreply 15November 9, 2017 6:21 PM

I prefer a nice looking femme guy. Usually they are nicer and more thoughtful and more intelligent than so-called masc4masc guys, although I'm not sure why.

by Anonymousreply 16November 9, 2017 6:37 PM

Maybe we need to define what we mean by femme. Are we talking looks? Jazz handsy mannerisms?

by Anonymousreply 17November 9, 2017 6:42 PM

I have no problem at all with effeminate gay man (or fem straight men for that matter). I've had friends who were far less than "manly". But sexually it's simply not something I have ever found arousing.

by Anonymousreply 18November 9, 2017 6:46 PM

R17, while the definition is different for each person , the overall consensus is that masculinity is Deternimed by mannerisms, manner of talk, voice, clothing, walking style, interests, and physical presentation. It’s defined with reference to current standards of conventional mainstream masculinity

by Anonymousreply 19November 9, 2017 6:48 PM

HENCE, a muscular guy who refers to males as “she” or “gurl” would be viewed as not masculine

by Anonymousreply 20November 9, 2017 6:49 PM

Did someone say ATTITUDES?

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by Anonymousreply 21November 9, 2017 6:55 PM

WHy the meddling inclination to tell others they should be attracted to people whom they naturally are not?

by Anonymousreply 22November 9, 2017 7:01 PM

Yes, gurl.

You WILL date me.

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by Anonymousreply 23November 9, 2017 7:03 PM

😮 wow

by Anonymousreply 24November 9, 2017 7:05 PM

Hmmmmm

by Anonymousreply 25November 9, 2017 9:03 PM

[r13] wins...

by Anonymousreply 26November 9, 2017 9:53 PM

Uh huh

by Anonymousreply 27November 10, 2017 10:46 AM

Nawww

by Anonymousreply 28November 12, 2017 1:27 PM

No one wants a femme, you best hope is to never speak and man a glory hole.

by Anonymousreply 29November 12, 2017 1:39 PM

I’ll fess up to being effemiphobic; they actually make me deeply uncomfortable and sometimes— particularly if they’re being very publicly sexually suggestive (and they frequently are )— disgusted. And to preempt armchair Anna freuds, no, It’s not about projection of my own insecurities around my masculinity, or being subconsciously attracted to these types; it is much more primal and fundermental, invoking a mechanism along the lines of the matter-out-of-place hypothesis of disgust. I like femininity. as I like masculinity, but each in their proper place (notwithstanding some degree of blurred edges which is normal in any system of taxonomy and categorisation)

by Anonymousreply 30November 14, 2017 11:18 AM

Fundamental*

by Anonymousreply 31November 14, 2017 11:20 AM

There is nothing fucking wrong with a particular gay guy not being attracted to another effeminate gay guy. Some gay men are not attracted to effeminate guys, and some are. Get over it. I'm not sexually attracted to effeminate gay guys personally. It's not some psychological problem, I'm just not attracted to them. I'm not misogynistic, I'm just not sexually attracted at all to females, or feminine qualities. This is such bullshit that gay men who aren't into feminine appearance and behavior are inherently misogynistic. If anything it appears to be written by disgruntled and sexually frustrated fem gay men and trans who seem to think that they're entitled to everyone's attraction at all times. You're not, get over it.

by Anonymousreply 32November 14, 2017 12:01 PM

Your milk shake doesn't bring all the boys to the yard. K?

by Anonymousreply 33November 14, 2017 12:07 PM

Please join the original, never ending discussion:

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by Anonymousreply 34November 14, 2017 12:11 PM

The only reason effeminate men are gay is that they wish they were really women, that's why they have female mannerisms. And the point of being gay is that gay men don't WANT to fuck women and so effeminates need to get that through their fragile skulls.

by Anonymousreply 35November 14, 2017 12:13 PM

Let's also define "attracted to"

Many of us are happy to fuck or get blown by an effeminate guy especially once his mouth is occupied with other things and he can't talk.

But dating them is another story and that's where the disconnect happens.

Their interests are usually markedly different and there's very little in common. That's why so many of us are turned off by what's known as "gay culture" as it centers around topics of interest to femme men (Judy! Show tunes! Fashion!) that hold limited interest to us.

by Anonymousreply 36November 14, 2017 12:16 PM

There's also the huge gap in how we experienced our formative years.

Femme guys were almost always bullied, teased, called names and ostracized by other boys starting in nursery school. Many had difficult relationships with their parents, their fathers in particular.

The rest of us had very different childhoods. We weren't all "jocks" (such an odd construct, that boys are either jocks or femmes) but the nerds, the band geeks, the gamers, the skaters-- no one was calling us "f*gs" and spitting at us in fourth grade and making us feel suicidal.

That difference--and it's a huge difference and changes how you see the world-- is at the root of the disconnect. While being gay seems to define many femme guys, it's much less of a defining characteristic for non-femme guys, mostly because sexuality and labels around sexuality were not foisted on them as children.

by Anonymousreply 37November 14, 2017 12:23 PM

“Many of us are happy to fuck or get blown by an effeminate guy especially once his mouth is occupied with other things and he can't talk.”

Not me. When I say “boner killer”I mean TOTAL boner killer

by Anonymousreply 38November 14, 2017 12:52 PM

Really R38?

I mean I've had some Grindr hookups where the only words exchanged were "hi" and "in here" -- the guy looked muscular and not femme and it was only on his way out that I discovered how femme he was.

by Anonymousreply 39November 14, 2017 1:02 PM

This topic gets annoying because everyone has a different idea of what femme is so everyone is talking about something different. I think of a guy that is purposely trying to be womanly but I've seen guys label Zac Efron as too feminine just because he has a pretty face.

by Anonymousreply 40November 14, 2017 1:15 PM

It's a very strong individual who resists having the sissy beaten out of him. As a stealth-gay who grew up out of the closet to everyone but himself, I admire the fearlessness of femmes - except those who show too much gum when they smile. That's spooky as shit.

by Anonymousreply 41November 14, 2017 1:31 PM

R10, some of us don't limit attractiveness to a static image. You fucking moron.

So tired of this subject. If anything there is a bias against men who like men and against rent afraid to say so. America is too feminine a country. Maybe Trump is a YUGE over correction to this pussification of the U.S.

by Anonymousreply 42November 14, 2017 1:34 PM

R39 Well, a determination of “effeminacy” has to satisfy a number of conditions of which possessing an unmasculine voice is a necessary but not sufficient condition thereof (eg David Beckham’s squeaky ass voice). So per your example the near total absence of conversation (!) means you didn’t knowingly consort with a “known effeminate” (but your still a total slut lol )

by Anonymousreply 43November 14, 2017 1:34 PM

You’re*

by Anonymousreply 44November 14, 2017 1:35 PM

[quote]But it may also partly explain the fact that the same number of people admitted to thinking effeminate gay men give the LGBT+ community a poor image or bad reputation

[quote]Another of the responses that struck me is the 71 per cent who said they’ve been turned off by signs of femininity in a man. It backs up the experience so many of us have had on hook-up apps or the dating scene

Yeah this is part of the problem...gay men need to be sexually attracted to a person, for us to think they are a good representation of the community. That is our own undoing. This holds true with us more than it does with other groups, for sure. Most straight people grow out of that mindset once they get older, but for us it continues well beyond when we are young.

by Anonymousreply 45November 14, 2017 1:58 PM

R45 No, there are plenty of effeminate gay men (living or dead) whom I find unfuckable (the dead ones especially so) but whom I nonetheless admire for their significant cultural or artistic accomplishments such as Oscar Wilde, Truman Capote, James Baldwin, Quentin Crisp, etc etc etc. Oh and David Sedaris. Even though I’d vomit at the thought of fucking them (same as I would ugly mare George Elliot) I’m proud of these men and not just as gay icons. The difference is they have (still) something of substance, or ACTUAL accomplishments beyond the shallow, gaudy, catty, pantomiming queenery. But in this current age wherein superficiality, PR gimmicks, and marketability is elevated to high art, self-proclaimed “fabulousness” is deemed more than good enough to warrant the supplication of the fawning gay media and their “queer” drones.

by Anonymousreply 46November 14, 2017 2:48 PM

Baby I await your presence ..... please bring lube and poppers

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by Anonymousreply 47November 14, 2017 4:36 PM

They shouldn't be ashamed. They should be appreciated because they really do make the best domestic servants. My toilets and floors are spotless.

by Anonymousreply 48November 14, 2017 5:48 PM

Wowww

by Anonymousreply 49November 14, 2017 6:01 PM

What are your thoughts on the theory that "sissy boys"-- kids who are effeminate kindergartners become gay for very different reasons than boys who don't realize until they hit puberty?

by Anonymousreply 50November 14, 2017 6:13 PM

I love how the straight acting ones say no to camp and then when they see a huge bulge bend over and present hole.

by Anonymousreply 51November 14, 2017 6:24 PM

Not seeing the parallel there R51

If a guy is attracted to another masculine guy, what has that got to do with his feelings about campy femme guys?

Do you think that only campy femme guys should be bottoms?

by Anonymousreply 52November 14, 2017 6:30 PM

So Dumb. Instead of trying to change how they react to sexual rejection (with dignity) they try to police people's thoughts and words.

by Anonymousreply 53November 14, 2017 8:09 PM

i want to fuck some arab ass

by Anonymousreply 54November 15, 2017 4:42 AM

OKay

by Anonymousreply 55November 15, 2017 2:46 PM

R50 very interesting theory - I think there's some truth to that

by Anonymousreply 56March 21, 2019 12:35 AM

R35 for the win! “The only reason effeminate men are gay is that they wish they were really women, that's why they have female mannerisms. And the point of being gay is that gay men don't WANT to fuck women and so effeminates need to get that through their fragile skulls”.

Bingo! End of story.

by Anonymousreply 57March 21, 2019 12:50 AM
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