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Almost Like Being in Love: Judy at Carnegie Hall. Does anyone come close to this brilliant performance? - Part 2

Momma was fabulous. Phlease continue...

by Liza!reply 243Last Saturday at 10:13 AM

Judy was an incredible talent. I sometimes look at her early films, when she was a teenager, and wonder what might have been if she had not been hooked on drugs. She is amazingly strong, talented of course, and one has to wonder...what might she have accomplished if MGM had not forced her into taking drugs so early on?

by Liza!reply 110/22/2017

Discussion originated here:

by Liza!reply 210/22/2017

I must pause to watch "A Star Is Born" whenever it airs. The studio recording of "The Man That Got Away" that she did for Capitol Records is one of the best recordings of all time.

by Liza!reply 310/22/2017

"The Man That Got Away' sequence in ASIB is one of the greatest moments of the film. She is incredible. One long take, only she could have done it.

by Liza!reply 410/22/2017

Gayest thread in datalounge history continues... carry on fuckers!

by Liza!reply 510/22/2017

Judy has always inspired wonderful threads here on DL.

by Liza!reply 610/22/2017

Remember her greatness. Let's try to post anyone from today that comes close to that level of talent. OK, I have no one, but GO!

by Liza!reply 710/23/2017

Except for Streisand, I can't think of anybody.

by Liza!reply 810/23/2017

That's the key. There's no one. Streisand is long past her vocal prime. No one can sing like Garland, even Streisand in her prime.

by Liza!reply 910/23/2017

[quote]Streisand is long past her vocal prime.

Yes, because she isn't a drug addict who committed suicide on a toilet.

by Liza!reply 1010/23/2017

Vocally, Streisand, Eydie Gorme and Shirley Bassey were at least as potent as Judy. Maybe even better. What Judy had is hard to put into words. A sincerity and natural connection to her audience that the others don't have. It enabled her to rise above the quality of her performance.

by Liza!reply 1110/23/2017

[quote]A sincerity and natural connection to her audience that the others don't have.

This really doesn't make much sense. Why did Streisand sell MANY more times the albums that Garland did if she didn't connect with her audience as well?

by Liza!reply 1210/23/2017

Nobody here is bashing Barbra, r12 so stop getting your panties in a twist. We are just discussing the relative merits of their voices. Neither has to be 'better' than the other. They're both great in their own way.

by Liza!reply 1310/23/2017

I'm speechless at this.

by Liza!reply 1410/23/2017

A dried up old hag to portray the greatest entertainer of the 20th century, or any century???!!!!!!

by Liza!reply 1510/23/2017

R15 If the movie is about Judy's latter years, they will need to cast a "dried up old hag" to portray her.

by Liza!reply 1610/23/2017

Something bad will happen to Mary r16

by Liza!reply 1710/23/2017

A dried up old hag to portray a dried up, doped up, mentally ill entertainer, R15.

by Liza!reply 1810/23/2017

R18 I hope you die in a grease fire. Everyone has their demons.

by Liza!reply 1910/23/2017

Is Renee going to recreate the famous scene, singing Somewhere Over the Rainbow while gargling a mouthful of traveling salesman cum?

by Liza!reply 2010/23/2017

R20 it wouldn't be Datalounge without cunts like you.

by Liza!reply 2110/23/2017

R19/R21 is not going to like this bio-pic!

by Liza!reply 2210/23/2017

It'll never get made.

by Liza!reply 2310/23/2017

I want to see a movie about Judy's MGM years, not about the very sad last year of her life. This depresses me.

by Liza!reply 2410/23/2017

OMG eldergays fighting over who is the better vocalist between Judy Barbra, etc. OMG gayest thing I have ever witness. I need to leave now! So embarrassing! Its like the other embarassing gays fighting over who is better Celine vs Mariah... pathetic@

by Liza!reply 2510/23/2017

I don't disparage Barbra, and maybe she was technically better. But, I cry when I see Garland sing Man That Got Away, or When the Sun Comes Out. I'm thrilled by Barbra, but she's never moved me to tears.

by Liza!reply 2610/23/2017

R26 That probably has a lot to do with knowing how sad Garland's life was vs. Streisand's.

by Liza!reply 2710/23/2017

What could have happened differently at MGM that would not have destroyed Judy at the studio? I think a key mistake was her marrying Vincente Minnelli. Unlike her first husband David Rose (who to my knowledge, never cashed in on Judy with books or articles), Minnelli was a diehard studio man who would try to instill in her the belief that MGM and Arthur Freed had only her best interests in mind. MGM thought he could control her and keep her in line.

If, following Rose, Judy had married a stronger man who was not beholden to the powers-that-be at MGM, she might have been spared Freeds slave-driving routine that ran her ragged and caused her to retreat even more into pills.

by Liza!reply 2810/23/2017

I think Judy singing When The Sun Comes Up for the second time on her series is just pure light. Energy and sound. Pure feelings. She even sways as if feeling the electrocution of the moment that she's creating. Amazing.

by Liza!reply 2910/23/2017

R28: I think she was doomed regardless. I suspect that she was bipolar and that was never treated.

by Liza!reply 3010/23/2017

R30 that's rather universally accepted. There was little help then.

by Liza!reply 3110/23/2017

I think if she'd had a different mother, a loving woman who looked out for her instead of a stage mother who was only interested in Judy's moneymaking abilities, we'd have had a different adult hood from Judy. She had been so damaged by her mother who helped Mayer push the drugs on her as a child, and then by the death of her father, that it was difficult for Judy to believe that anyone truly cared about her. People in that position rarely take care of themselves.

by Liza!reply 3210/23/2017

Add to that all her talent, R32. What a recipe for a sad personal life.

by Liza!reply 3310/23/2017

AA and/or NA were both alive, well, and saving hundreds of lives in LA starting in the 1940s.

And both were and are 100% free of charge.

Some make it, but most don't.

by Liza!reply 3410/24/2017

R34 she was a major star by what, 1939. I am aware of AA/NA being present in LA, but they may have well been located on Mars. She could never attend these meetings publicly. Think of the times.

by Liza!reply 3510/24/2017

No one matches Judy, and there are plenty of other singers I like. IMO it's in her eyes and flesh, the way she connects to the audience even through the camera. Very few people have that. I loved her as a child and still love her now. There's something unmistakable about her.

by Liza!reply 3610/24/2017

Listen to her various recordings of "You Made Me Love You" (she was what, 14??) Every single one rings true, yet they're all different. How she does this is beyond me. It's as if she's improvising the whole thing, when she's not. She had a natural talent that very few people have. She simply gave it all, and what she had was plenty.

by Liza!reply 3710/24/2017

r37 well said

by Liza!reply 3810/24/2017

Judy Garland in 2017 is still relevant enough for Hollywood to be making a film about. That's enough to put a kibosh on those who've said, or doubted her relevancy to people who are under sixty and not gay men.

by Liza!reply 3910/24/2017

No one will ever match this. Prove me wrong.

by Liza!reply 4010/24/2017

The only one who can come close to Garland is not Streisand. It was Frank Sinatra at the height of his powers.

They both had an uncanny way of squeezing every drop of meaning from a lyric.

by Liza!reply 4110/24/2017

Still relevant in 2017, yes, but what you need is footage and soudreels. No performer will be able to mimic what she had.

by Liza!reply 4210/24/2017

[quote]Vocally, Streisand, Eydie Gorme and Shirley Bassey were at least as potent as Judy.

What about me?

by Liza!reply 4310/24/2017

r43 only Streisand. Gorme was loud and pedestrian. Bassey is overrated.

by Liza!reply 4410/24/2017

Remember that Garland was performing since the age of 2. She grew up in the theater. In vaudeville, specifically. Which is why she was bigger than life and why Streisand, when she performs, is not. Vaudeville played to the last row of the house. Streisand is fabulous if you are in the first twenty rows. If you're in the balcony it's less compelling. Don't get me wrong, I love Babs and have seen her live numerous times.

by Liza!reply 4510/24/2017


by Liza!reply 4610/26/2017

Hey, what about me? Judy loved me, Streisand was in awe of me, Sinatra hated me!

by Liza!reply 4710/26/2017

Wow Part 2! Judy, Judy, Judy... it’s all for you.

R39 yes she is loved by all, including this female who is under 50.

Someone from Part 1 posted a TV version of The Man That Got Away and asked who directed it. It was Norman Jewison, from the Judy, Frank and Dean TV Special, 1962. The show’s star was definitively Judy; Frank and Dean were ornamental. Very appropriate. Love it.

Much later, in one of her televised biographies, Jewison said that he has worked with many talented people in the film and television industries, and when it comes to Judy Garland,

“Nobody. Comes. Close.”

Of course they don’t.

by Liza!reply 4810/26/2017

[quote]Judy Garland in 2017 is still relevant enough for Hollywood to be making a film about. That's enough to put a kibosh on those who've said, or doubted her relevancy to people who are under sixty and not gay men.

It is never going to be made.

by Liza!reply 4910/26/2017

Does anyone comes close to the brilliant Carnegie Hall performance? Answer: No

But I will say this. In live performance, one artist tries really hard to do what Judy did. It is not Barbra or Edye or anyone else already mentioned.

Bette Midler is absolutely captivating in concert. Her 1993 tour, Experience the Divine, was unforgettable. The audience was on a rollercoaster - she brought major energy to every song and had us soaring, then would beautifully caress a ballad and had everyone in tears. I mean it would go from total hysteria to silence and back all night. And she happens to be funny as shit a la Judy.

Bette has spoken of Judy’s incomparable greatness.

by Liza!reply 5010/26/2017

r50 you are right about Bette. I saw her 1983 tour in Pittsburgh in a small theater. And I've seen her dozens of times since, recently in Dolly. She can make you laugh and cry in the same breath. But vocally, she's nowhere.

by Liza!reply 5110/26/2017

I agree. Bette is the greatest live performer I've ever seen. I wish I could have seen Judy live.

by Liza!reply 5210/26/2017

Everyone said Judy's live performances were earthshaking.

by Liza!reply 5310/28/2017

I got soudreels once back in the '90s but found a terrif podiatrist who cleared it right up!

by Liza!reply 5410/28/2017

Bette really is way better live than confined to a screen. She's just busting with the kind of theatrical energy that can come across as phony or ridiculous on screen, but thrilling in the back row of a theater. I've often wondered what her Gypsy would have been like on stage. On screen, it's abysmal and impossibly hammy, but maybe it would have worked on stage.

I've also noticed that performers with less traditionally pretty voices like Bette Midler, Liza Minnelli, Ethel Merman, Elaine Stritch, Carol Channing, etc. comes across brilliantly on stage. They're so alive and in the moment that you could care less if the sound coming out of their mouth is a bit harsh. On recordings and on film, it might bother you more. I've often wondered why this is. I saw Glenn Close in Sunset Boulevard last year and, while she clearly is far from the best singer to have ever sung that score, she was so alive and in character that I seriously didn't even notice one bit. The same thing happened when I saw Tyne Daly in Gypsy. She was so in character that it was almost as if she made her own vocal limitations disappear.

by Liza!reply 5510/28/2017

r55 really great thoughts. I too saw Daly in Gypsy and was blown away. The voice didn't matter at all. Same with Bette, Cher, Liza etc. Judy Garland really had it all, the stage presence to command traditional stage work, film work, radio and TV. That's what sets her apart from anyone else, really.

by Liza!reply 5610/28/2017

R55 and R56, I agree with your assessment of Tyne Daly as a performer and here is proof - a wonderful performance of "Trouble" from "The Music Man" (please see link below).

by Liza!reply 5710/28/2017

Tyne's really great in that clip. She just has musicality in her bones, which I think is really the most important part of a great musical performer. I also saw her in Gypsy and, for my money, she's still the best Rose I've seen in my life (and I've seen 'em all). Hilarious, charming, terrifying, disturbing, and heartbreaking all at once.

by Liza!reply 5810/28/2017

Judy would have been a lovely Marion the librarian

by Liza!reply 5910/29/2017

God, I HATED Tyne Daly in Gypsy.

by Liza!reply 6010/29/2017

Speaking of GYPSY, I bet Judy would have been fascinating in that role. VERY different, but fascinating.

by Liza!reply 6110/29/2017

yes. fascinating. and she'd have sung the score like nobody's business.

by Liza!reply 6210/29/2017

I wish she had sung some of the GYPSY score on her television show.

by Liza!reply 6310/30/2017

I could swear I've heard her sing "Some People." Must've dreamed it.

by Liza!reply 6410/31/2017

If Judy had cleaned up her health in the 1950s she could have breezed through the 1960s doing the film versions of Gypsy, Mame and Hello Dolly. She would have been perfect for all three.

by Liza!reply 6510/31/2017

R64, could it be that you're thinking of the fine version Liza did at Radio City Music Hall?

by Liza!reply 6610/31/2017

Here's Some People from the TV show

by Liza!reply 6710/31/2017

That's it, R67, thanks!

(I NEVER get Judy and Liza mixed up - please!)

With more rehearsal, a different director, in the context of a show, she would have been even better.

I don't really like it when Liza does her fake New Yawk accent.

by Liza!reply 6810/31/2017

I bought this album as a young lad and had to hide it in my room so my father wouldn't discover it. He was horrified by my love of Judy Garland, Leontyne Price, and Marlene Dietrich and would remark that no son of his was going to listen to "that fag shit" while he was around.

God knows what he would've done if he'd found my copies of City of Night and The Occasional Man!

by Liza!reply 6910/31/2017

Oops, R64, I stand corrected! I should have given you more credit than that :)

by Liza!reply 7010/31/2017

I believe Jerry Herman is on record as having envisioned Garland for Mame from the beginning.

by Liza!reply 7110/31/2017

r71 I'll ask him.

by Liza!reply 7211/01/2017

FYI, Garland sang "When the Sun Comes Out" on her show after Streisand famously sang it on Ed Sullivan. Judy phrased the song and handled the dynamics almost exactly as Streisand did (first)!

No bashing of either here- both are vocal geniuses and I love both as well. Just an FYI-

For my money they are both in a class by themselves at the top of the great popular singer totem pole. I DO wonder what Garland might have sounded like (never mind the effect on her career) as well has sung as time went on if she had not been such an addict. Streisand was very much in her vocal prime at 47 which was the age of Garland when she died.

by Liza!reply 7311/01/2017

R68, Judy didn't rehearse.

by Liza!reply 7411/01/2017

She was never in a Broadway production either. Producers would have insisted.

by Liza!reply 7511/01/2017

If the show was after 1950, she would never have passed the insurance physical.

by Liza!reply 7611/01/2017

R71, Streisand didn't sing it first. Judy was singing it at the Cocoanut Grove in 1958--it's on that album.

by Liza!reply 7711/01/2017

^ that should be R73

by Liza!reply 7811/01/2017

r77 took the words right out of my mouth. Garland at the Grove 1958.

by Liza!reply 7911/01/2017

Edie Gorme recorded it in 1957

But Helen O'Connell is the one who introduced it.

I love the swanky 1940s orchestration. It really milks the melody.

by Liza!reply 8011/01/2017

R80, I knew Judy didn't introduce the song--but it seemed R73 thought that Streisand sang it before Judy got to it and implied that Judy copied her phrasing and dynamics.

by Liza!reply 8111/01/2017

I love the sound of Judy's voice so much. And it's funny, I was immediately attracted to her as a child. I remember seeing her movies with Mickey Rooney when I was very small and I instinctively loved her.

by Liza!reply 8211/01/2017

R82 me too. Maybe there was something boyish about her. I remember when I was a little kid having a big crush on Jodie Foster in those Disney movies she used to do. And Kristy McNichol.

by Liza!reply 8311/01/2017

I'm still perplexed as to how ASIB could have lost money in that initial release. Garland hadn't made a film in four years and this was a big, sudsy melodrama with music. A sure-fire winner, I'd think. And wasn't. How did that happen?

by Liza!reply 8411/01/2017

ASIB is kind of a chore to sit through. Too much focused on Judy. She has to carry the whole film on her shoulders. James Mason is a big nothing. "Meet Me in St Louis" works so well because of the sub plots and strong supporting characters.

by Liza!reply 8511/02/2017

I agree, r85. As others have said, Mason and Garland have NO chemistry, so we don't really care what happens to him. His story should be as important as hers. We don't know WHY he became a washed up drunk - what did stardom do to him? - It just wallows in his degradation.

by Liza!reply 8611/02/2017

Cary Grant wouldn't have worked either. I think that William Holden would have rocked it.

by Liza!reply 8711/02/2017

Interesting. I hadn't considered Holden for the role but he certainly did play a drunk convincingly. And he was a great actor and very sexy at that time.

by Liza!reply 8811/02/2017

A Star is Born can kinda be a slog at times. It has brilliant moments, but I think another 20 minutes removed would have helped it. Still, it's a masterpiece compared to that Streisand version.

by Liza!reply 8911/02/2017

r89 you're right. It's just too much JUDY and a bad wardrobe does not help.

by Liza!reply 9011/02/2017

I keep telling you, I COULD GO ON SINGING has none of those problems.

Find it, watch it, love it!

by Liza!reply 9111/02/2017

Hmmmm...ASIB would have been good with William Holden. And Rosemary Clooney in the female lead.

by Liza!reply 9211/03/2017

I think ASIB is a pretty terrific movie.

by Liza!reply 9311/03/2017

Rosemary Clooney was a wonderful performer, but she didn't have the star power to carry a film like ASIB. And the truth is, she didn't photograph very well.

by Liza!reply 9411/04/2017

I have mentioned before here about seeing Judy Garland a few months later in 1961. For me, the high points were "Come Rain or Come Shine" and "That's Entertainment." The later because Judy danced around the stage while the music is kept playing..

by Liza!reply 9511/04/2017

Okay, R94, replace Clooney with Eartha Kit!

by Liza!reply 9611/04/2017

Any other memories of seeing her, r95? I'm pea green with envy!

by Liza!reply 9711/04/2017

On my seeing Garland perform in 1961: If you listen to the complete Judy at Carnegie Hall with earphones, it's the closest you can get to what she was like in person. Her voice had declined by the time her TV show started in 1963, The one essential TV special was Judy iwith Sinatra and Dean Martin, taped in 1961, but shown on TV in 1962. She at her peak there was well.

by Liza!reply 9811/04/2017

R98 how did her voice decline? She sounds fantastic- especially in the concert shows. I think the decline happened after Hong Kong in 1964.

by Liza!reply 9911/04/2017

R95 How lucky you are to have had your stereocilia vibrated by Judy's live voice. Cherish that memory. Hold it dear.

by Liza!reply 10011/04/2017

Yes, the vocal decline came when she was put in an iron lung in Hong Kong. Her vocal cords were damaged.

by Liza!reply 10111/04/2017

R95 I remember you posting about seeing Judy Live here. Didn't your Aunt take you to a concert in New York?

Listing to her live album as a child and adult, that had to have been so memorable. She held an audience like no other!

by Liza!reply 10211/04/2017

Back in my student days in NYC, about once a year I'd turn off the lights in my bedroom, turn the stereo sound up loud and play the Carnegie Hall album, imagining I was there watching her. It was always a thrilling experience.

by Liza!reply 10311/04/2017

Who is Hollywood should play Judy in the biopic that DL should produce?????

by Liza!reply 10411/05/2017

Dame Shirley Bassey is an electrifying live performer. She is probably closest to Judy in terms of the devotion of her fans. She started performing as a headliner in the late 50s and only retired a few years ago. Her shows lack spontaneity but her vocal power and conditioning has always been staggering.

by Liza!reply 10511/05/2017


by Liza!reply 10611/06/2017

Shirley Bassey does not know subtlety - EVER. For that reason alone, R105, she doesn't serve to be mentioned with Garland, Streisand or any in the top echelon.

by Liza!reply 10711/06/2017

Shirley Bassey is wonderful but she's her own thing.

by Liza!reply 10811/06/2017


by Liza!reply 10911/06/2017


by Liza!reply 11011/06/2017


by Liza!reply 11111/07/2017

Shirl has always acknowledged Judy (as well as Miss Dorothy Squires) as an influence.

by Liza!reply 11211/07/2017

I listen to Judy a lot. I've concluded that she was sublime vocally until late '63. There were also some moments in '65 (The Music That Makes Me Dance), and some of the renditions on the Palace album are good- but by late '67 someone should have done something to help her. I know if I could have I would have.

by Liza!reply 11311/07/2017

She sounds great at the Harold Arlen tribute in November 1968.

by Liza!reply 11411/07/2017

r114 you're right I forgot that night! Imagine if it were Florence Henderson!

by Liza!reply 11511/08/2017

I'd forgotten all about that story, R115.

by Liza!reply 11611/09/2017


by Liza!reply 11711/10/2017

One of the biggest theaters in Hollywood (the ARCLIGHT) is showing Meet Me In St Louis next week! How nice it would be to see it on the big screen.

by Liza!reply 11811/12/2017

Judy's Presenting Lily Mars was supposedly her favorite among her films, according to daughter Liza. She certainly looked beautiful in it, that's probably why.

by Liza!reply 11911/12/2017

"Presenting Lily Mars" is sort of a hodgepodge of story and song with two big bands thrown in. You can tell it is a Joe Pasternak production as it aims simply to be breezy, fun entertainment. Like Judy's other two Joe Pasternak films "In the Good Old Summertime", and the delightful "Summer Stock" it succeeds wonderfully at its goals.

"Lily Mars" approaches A-List only in its dazzling finale a lavish medley ending in "Broadway Rhythm" complete with extravagant choreography, perhaps Judy's best dancing on film, and her partner is future director Chuck Walters who also dances with Judy in "Girl Crazy". Judy is sublime in the number.

The finale replaces the original number filmed, a song called "Paging Mr. Greenbacks" which I'm not sure survives. Has anyone even heard the audio?

by Liza!reply 12011/12/2017

The audio of the "Mr. Greenback" number is on the essential Rhino double CD of most of her MGM musical tracks, including cut and fairly obscure early ones. It's energetic but meh. Stills exist of the completed number which was shot on the "Capitol Steps" set used in BABES IN ARMS. The "Broadway Rhythm" audio track on the Rhino CD is longer, with parts not in the film.

I like LILY MARS too. Judy is relaxed and funny and looks great.

by Liza!reply 12111/13/2017

The film doesn't have the opening verse, thank god:

"Did you ever stop to think what a crazy world there'd be/ if we never had a song we could sing?/ Did you ever realize what a lovely melody/ can make a wintry world seem like spring?/When you hear d**k**s singing as they work and as they play/perhaps you'll understand when I say...."

by Liza!reply 12211/13/2017

I think Judy's best dance number is in Summer Stock. There's a scene with Gene Kelly in which her dancing is out of this world.

by Liza!reply 12311/13/2017

Oh, honey, do we have to censor "darkies"?

by Liza!reply 12411/13/2017

Judy did quite a few numbers in blackface in her day.

by Liza!reply 12511/13/2017

I actually thought "I could go on singing" was a good piece of work showing Judy during these final good years.

If you haven't seen that film watch it. There is a scene that shows Judy's real persona perfectly. She's on the piano singing with her son's school friends. This little boy comes out of the crowd and starts doing the twist. It's so disjointed from the song and really funny. Judy turns to the little boy and says "You and I are the only ones doing any work around here". I'd be pretty certain all that was improvised and it shows how funny she was.

by Liza!reply 12611/13/2017

Had Judy's 3 picture deal with Warners been fulfilled, what other two films do you think she'd have made? Carousel?

by Liza!reply 12711/13/2017

She'd have been Julie in Showboat had she not been fired from MGM.

by Liza!reply 12811/14/2017

She may not have wanted Julia. She may have thought the part was too maudlin. Julia's kind of a sad sack when you get right down to it.

by Liza!reply 12911/14/2017

There really weren't a lot of 1950s musicals that would have been right for her.

If Comden & Green's Peter Pan had been made into a film instead of a TV spectacular, Judy would have been perfect for the role.

by Liza!reply 13011/14/2017

I think she'd have been marvy in Oklahoma

by Liza!reply 13111/14/2017

I agree, r130. 1950s musicals were all perky girl-next-door Debbie Reynolds, Mitzi Gaynor and Doris Day. Judy was too mature and 'knowing' for them. Even SOUTH PACIFIC would have been wrong for her. The only one that would have been perfect (which would have probably won her the Oscar) was GYPSY. (Duh)

by Liza!reply 13211/14/2017

I don't think she was right for GYPSY either. She didn't do brassy, pushy, or inconsiderate. It would have been wrong on her. She was an amazing actress but everyone has a range to play, and that wasn't in hers.

by Liza!reply 13311/14/2017

She would have been great in a kind of musical "Norma Rae" - the feisty union worker rebelling, the tiny person against the unfeeling monolith. And think of it ... 'Rae' is an easy word to rhyme for the title song!

Honestly, I think she'd have been well suited for the kind of movies Sally Field did; that is, if she'd lived a couple of decades later and been healthy.

But we can dream, right?

by Liza!reply 13411/14/2017

R67 Jesus Christ, Judy Garland is so fidgety on uppers, it is exhausting to watch her bounce around the stage, flailing her hands and fidgeting her feet.

I do think she was very talented, but I find her insufferably hammy.

by Liza!reply 13511/14/2017

Judy would have done a great GYPSY around the time she did I COULD GO ON SINGING. She was quite prepared to do bitchy in that film.

by Liza!reply 13611/14/2017

R132 And I'm serious about Peter Pan. "Never Neverland" is as if it had been written for her.

by Liza!reply 13711/15/2017

Had she lived she would have made a terrific Miss Hannigan, for reasons too numerous to list here.

by Liza!reply 13811/15/2017

Had she been nine, she'd have made a terrific Annie.

by Liza!reply 13911/15/2017

LOL it's true, she would have been a perfect Annie, maybe even saved that rotten thing from itself.

by Liza!reply 14011/16/2017

While I don't think Judy would have played Rose in GYPSY in the typical brassy, bitchy Merman mold, I think she'd have brought something very different to the role. I can see her Rose being far more pathetic and disturbing than any of the others, because I feel like Judy would have played Rose like a dreamer - like someone with unrelenting optimism even in the worst of times. She genuinely feels like this dream is something realistic for her. I find that far more interesting than a bulldozer who yells every line. It would have probably worked well for a film version.

by Liza!reply 14111/16/2017

I think that Garland would have slayed in Landsbury's role in The Manchurian Candidate.

by Liza!reply 14211/16/2017

R128, when she didn't show up for the first week of shooting she WOULD HAVE BEEN fired all over again.

by Liza!reply 14311/16/2017

I know there's dissent, but I think she'd have been terrific in South Pacific.

by Liza!reply 14411/16/2017

If she hadn't gotten pregnant with Joey, I think we might have had another film out of her after ASIB.

by Liza!reply 14511/16/2017

I think she'd have been lovely in Brigadoon

by Liza!reply 14611/18/2017

She'd have been great in Shirley Jones' role in Elmer Gantry.

by Liza!reply 14711/19/2017

She'd have been great in Shirley Jones' role in The Partridge Family.

by Liza!reply 14811/19/2017

She'd have been great in Shirley Jones' role in Oklahoma.

by Liza!reply 14911/19/2017

She'd have made an awesome Acid Queen in Tommy.

by Liza!reply 15011/19/2017

She'd have been great in YENTL

by Liza!reply 15111/19/2017

She would have been FABULOUS in "The Sound of Music".

by Liza!reply 15211/19/2017

Judy would actually have been great in CABARET

by Liza!reply 15311/19/2017

Actually, R151, although I guess you were kidding, I can picture young (around 25-year-old) Judy in YENTL, playing Hadass (the Amy Irving role). She was expert at projecting innocence and longing. She was small, physically shorter and more delicate than Streisand, who isn't very tall herself. That would have made the illusion of Streisand as a man more believable when they were onscreen together. Judy had those big dark eyes and the vulnerability necessary for the part. She would have looked beautiful filmed in the Rembrandt-painting-look cinematography Barbra used. She could also have added a trace of an accent with no trouble (think of Judgement at Nuremberg). There could have been one or two really fabulous duets of the intertwining inner thoughts of Anshel (Streisand) and Hadass, plus a solo for Hadass, for balance with all the Anshel inner-thoughts solos.

by Liza!reply 15411/19/2017

Judes would have been a hell of an Acid Queen.

by Liza!reply 15511/19/2017

She'd have been great in The Godfather, in Marlon Brando's role.

by Liza!reply 15611/19/2017

AND, R154, Judy's experience with her bisexual side would have worked *perfectly* for the role!

by Liza!reply 15711/19/2017

LOL, R157, I forgot to mention that!

by Liza!reply 15811/19/2017

If Judy had made GYPSY in 1963, wouldn't Liza have been old enough to play Gypsy Rose Lee? That would have been something. And Lorna could have played Baby June!

by Liza!reply 15911/20/2017

Fantasy casting needs to be at least chronologically plausible, doesn't it? Judy couldn't have appeared with Barbra in Yentl because she was dead. Even if she wasn't, she wouldn't have been 25.

Besides, I thought Amy Irving was perfect as Hadass.

by Liza!reply 16011/20/2017

No it DOESN'T have to be chronologically plausible, R160.

She'd have been great in the De Niro role in TAXI DRIVER.

by Liza!reply 16111/20/2017

Love it hale yes Judy would’ve slayed it in those roles, including Brando and DeNiro.

She could’ve played EVERY part in The Color Purple.

by Liza!reply 16211/20/2017

Even Nettie, R162?

by Liza!reply 16311/20/2017

Lol yes even Nettie absolutely. She would have knocked Celie, Shug and Sophia roles out of the park.

Fuck it, she would’ve and should’ve knocked Spielberg out of his chair and taken over.

by Liza!reply 16411/20/2017

The actual song from Carnegie Hall that inspired this thread has not yet been posted.

Here we go.

I pretty much levitate everytime.

by Liza!reply 16511/20/2017

r161 I stand corrected. In that case, Judy should have played Mandy Patinkin's role instead. She could have sported her beard from Born in a Trunk. And you know r154 that you would have wanted a glimpse of that sweet, sweet Judy/Avigdor ass.

by Liza!reply 16611/20/2017




by Liza!reply 16711/21/2017

Judy would have done a smashing EVITA

by Liza!reply 16811/21/2017

She'd have been great in the Peter Graves role in Airplane, only she's also be drunk flying the plane.

by Liza!reply 16911/21/2017

she'd have been darling as Marion the Librarian

by Liza!reply 17011/21/2017

the most exciting popular singer to ever walk the planet

by Liza!reply 17111/21/2017

The best there ever was!

by Liza!reply 17211/24/2017

I have never forgiven Mel Torme for that nasty, bitter tell-all he wrote. What a piece of shit he was.

by Liza!reply 17311/26/2017

R173 he rots in hell

by Liza!reply 17411/27/2017

Care to fill us in, r173?

by Liza!reply 17511/27/2017

I loved Mel Torme's book, it was dishy, nasty and fun. Judy doesn't come off well, but we all knew she was a screw up at the time. Torme didn't mean it to be nasty, he was all over every talk show interviewing for the book. I bought it when it came out in 1970, still have it.

by Liza!reply 17611/27/2017

He lives next door to me, R175

by Liza!reply 17711/27/2017

Judy Garland would have been over weight for Peter Pan in the 1950s, and the Peter was perhaps associate with Mary Martin (Broadway and TV).

by Liza!reply 17811/27/2017

Judy should have played Stritch on Broadway.

by Liza!reply 17911/27/2017

After seeing how long the first thread was, and now this one, I borrowed a copy of the album from the library and just listened to it, twice, and in a word, wow!

Now I will go back to the original thread and read all 600 comments, and then come read this one too.

DL is truly a treasure, thanks for the heads up...

by Liza!reply 18011/27/2017

r180 you're in for a wild ride. Enjoy!

by Liza!reply 18111/27/2017

"Torme didn't mean it to be nasty..."

Oh yes, he most certainly did. There are people named in the book who disavowed it and said he lied and made up stories that never happened, all of which made Garland look bad. Lena Horne was one of them. After the book came out she said that she and Judy had always been friends and that the scenes he describes in the book never happened. Torme was a pariah for a while after this book came out, btw. Many felt it was in extremely bad taste for him to write and publish the book immediately after Garland's death.

by Liza!reply 18211/27/2017

And btw, on a much later edition I noticed Torme finally wrote a forward in which he tries to excuse his vicious portrait of her by saying something like "No one knew about or understood addiction at that time." Bullshit. He was just a mean, nasty man who tried to make a buck off Judy's death.

by Liza!reply 18311/27/2017

How old are you, r180? Just curious.

by Liza!reply 18411/27/2017

The Coyne Sanders book on the Judy Garland Show is essential reading. It doesn't make light of Judy's problems, but it shows how CBS' cavalier attitude to the show undermined the stability Garland so desperately sought and needed. It's also a great early example of the media "dumbing down" a performer in a misguided attempt to "appeal to the masses". Judy was too "sophisticated", so they had assholes like Jerry van Dyke insult her with "You used to be fat!" and "whats a little old lady like you doing on television?"

by Liza!reply 18511/28/2017

Coyne is dead, you know.

by Liza!reply 18611/28/2017

R182, you're entitled to your opinion, but Lena Horne most definitely DID NOT EVER comment on Torme's book or ever say what he wrote was false. Don't lie to try to make a point.

The part about Lena in Torme's book that wasn't true was that she "was a good friend" of his. Period. She didn't say that, I did.

by Liza!reply 18711/28/2017

Lena was a control freak perfectionist, and working with Garland in '63 had to have been a nightmare.

And, from Lena's 1965 autobiography, page 93:

"Florence Mills, I like to think, must have been a little like Judy Garland. A waif they could cry over and pity sometimes, perhaps feel a little superior to, but also kindly toward."

by Liza!reply 18811/28/2017

I absolutely did read, years ago, a refutation by Horne of Torme's portrayal of her in his book. It stuck in my head because it was in that moment that I realized that much of Torme's book was possibly grossly elaborated or entirely made up.

Oh, and thanks for calling me a liar. Nice.

by Liza!reply 18911/28/2017

Produce a link or a source, R189. It doesn't exist, regardless of what stuck in your head.

by Liza!reply 19011/29/2017

Not everything is on the Internet, R190.

by Liza!reply 19111/29/2017

Nice try, R191.

by Liza!reply 19211/29/2017

Why don't you STFU about Lena and watch her and Judy in action. Glorious.

by Liza!reply 19311/30/2017

Just as an aside, I'd like to put a word in for another great live concert recording, Lena Horne's The Lady and Her Music. Wonderful singing from beginning to end, peppered with some funny stories about her career. If you've never heard of Light Egyptian before, this is where you find out.

by Liza!reply 19411/30/2017

FYI, Streisand's current Netflix concert is just. plain. wonderful. Elegaic but joyful in tone, it's one of her finest live shows.

by Liza!reply 19511/30/2017

I wish PBS or TMC would take all her television specials and show them, one after the other, maybe on her birthday. That would be fun.

by Liza!reply 19612/01/2017

Nice try, again, R193.

by Liza!reply 19712/01/2017

^^ fucking loser asshole ^^

by Liza!reply 19812/02/2017

R198 = trying so desperately :(

by Liza!reply 19912/02/2017

Judy's been derailed before, she always comes back long after you bickering queens have gone.

by Liza!reply 20012/02/2017

Thanks for that, R200 :) . The whole song's just great - Judy sounding and looking vibrant and charming as I remembered. But I'd forgotten how great the part is when Judy's singing a duet with the trombone, which (unusually for the times) was being played live in that scene. Wonderful.

by Liza!reply 20112/02/2017

Ever notice how dark the makeup is in Easter Parade? They all look like they've been lying out at the beach all day. I wonder why the makeup was applied to dark and heavy?

by Liza!reply 20212/02/2017

I never noticed that before, r202, and you're right.

In most of her Technicolor Films (MMISL, THG, W&M, TTCRB, TP), Judy looks extremely, almost unhealthy pale. In the EASTER PARADE makeup they perhaps took notice and overcompensated a bit.

by Liza!reply 20312/03/2017

She looked her best in Girl Crazy. Healthy, strong and in control.

by Liza!reply 20412/04/2017

R113, she was long past help.

As for Torme's book being over the top- if anything, undercooked. I know of first hand stories about how out of control Judy was at all stages of her life. Her story is harrowing. That said, she was a genius, no doubt about it. Both Streisand and Garland are show business geniuses- the vocal talents of all time for my money. Difference is that Streisand has been in total control of her life and career since the very beginning of it. It's reflected in their voices and musicianship. What they have in common is the ability to sing big, I don't mean just power. Rather to express the full range of emotions from joy to sorrow and everything else in song, phrasing and vocal color and to get to the core of almost anything better than anyone else.

by Liza!reply 20512/04/2017

Totally agree, r204. I don't know why, but GIRL CRAZY seems to be somewhat underrated in her film canon.

by Liza!reply 206Last Tuesday at 2:49 AM

Girl Crazy has an incredibly stupid plot, but she looks great and her singing is gorgeous.

by Liza!reply 207Last Tuesday at 8:42 AM

The Pirate was well before its time.

by Liza!reply 208Last Tuesday at 5:09 PM

'I think if she'd had a different mother, a loving woman who looked out for her instead of a stage mother who was only interested in Judy's moneymaking abilities, we'd have had a different adult hood from Judy. She had been so damaged by her mother who helped Mayer push the drugs on her as a child, and then by the death of her father, that it was difficult for Judy to believe that anyone truly cared about her. People in that position rarely take care of themselves.'

All of what you said is total bullshit. Ethel Gumm was ambitious for her daughters, she wanted them to succeed in show business, but she was not the monstrous evil harridan Judy Garland portrayed her as, and she did NOT help "Mayer push drugs on her." Nobody stood over poor little Judy Garland, pouring pills down her throat. Everybody at MGM was given drugs but very few of them became hopeless, insatiable drug addicts like Judy Garland. One biographer said this of her: "Judy seems to have the kind of metabolism that welcomes foreign agents and transforms them into hungers that can never be satisfied. "

Judy Garland told a lot of lies. Drug addicts are like that. She was also probably bi-polar. She blamed everybody but herself for her troubles: she blamed her mother, she blamed Louis Mayer, she blamed MGM, she blamed Sid Luft. Everything she said had to be taken with a large grain of salt, and that includes her tales of abuse by practically everybody.

by Liza!reply 209Last Tuesday at 5:37 PM

"All of what you said is total bullshit." Fuck off, cunt. You have no idea what you're talking about. I've read every JG biography there is and nearly all of them agree that her mother was a bitch and a ruthless stage mother. She stood by while Mayer molested Judy and she stood by while Mayer forced Judy to take drugs to sleep and wake up. So go fuck yourself.

by Liza!reply 210Last Tuesday at 6:09 PM

Saw 2ncdcast of Norma at Met this evening. Angela Meade and Jamie Barton, the big cast. Barton minimum 250 pounds to Meade's 300. Rivals indeed. Anybody have better info or guestimate on this topic?

by Liza!reply 211Last Tuesday at 6:42 PM

Oops, wrong thread.

by Liza!reply 212Last Tuesday at 6:43 PM

R210, you are a fucked up idiot Judy Garland queen. I don't think you can read at ALL, because the better written and researched biographies of Judy Garland ALL make note of the fact that she was a liar and that her depiction of her mother was insane bullshit. I think you take Gerald Clarke's (he's a REAL big ol' Judy queen) "Get Happy: The Life of Judy Garland" as the gospel truth, but he gets a lot of his information from the ramblings of poor dear drug addicted fucked up insane Judy herself. She spend her life dissing her mother, Mayer, Sid Luft, etc. and Clarke laps it all up, not being bright enough to look at the facts and being a worshipful Judy queen.

Read (that is, if you can read) "Rainbow: the Stormy Life of Judy Garland" by Christopher Finch. It will relieve your ignorance. Now go fuck yourself, you deluded cunt. Judy Garland "molested" by Louis Mayer, who called her a "hunchback! Yeah, Louis Mayer was really hot for short, plain, barrel-chested hunchbacks. He wouldn't have touched Judy Garland with a barge pole, you ass.

by Liza!reply 213Last Wednesday at 5:19 AM

[quote]If Judy had made GYPSY in 1963, wouldn't Liza have been old enough to play Gypsy Rose Lee? That would have been something. And Lorna could have played Baby June!

I could have played a blue costume. Or a chair.

by Liza!reply 214Last Wednesday at 5:41 AM

r213, you are mentally ill. please, get help. you are a danger to yourself and to anyone around you.

by Liza!reply 215Last Wednesday at 7:01 AM

I blocked r213. What was said?

by Liza!reply 216Last Wednesday at 7:10 AM

R210, you were describing yourself, not Judy. Projecting onto and weeping over your favorite star is very typical. Boo hoo.

Note: Garland's older sister Suzy was an alcoholic suicide five years before Garland's. She wasn't ruined by Mother or Mr Mayer. The truth is that whole family is a bi-polar mess, regardless of environment.

by Liza!reply 217Last Wednesday at 9:24 AM

R216: It's just a homophobic, misogynistic rant by some deranged sociopath who thinks Judy should be held responsible for everything except possibly Roy Moore. You didn't miss anything.

It's the same worthless skank who shows up in every Garland appreciation thread.

Meanwhile, to get the taste out of my mouth, I'll take Judy's advice from the opening of Summer Stock. And watch her make the bed. I like watching her do homely things like that.

by Liza!reply 218Last Wednesday at 9:33 AM

Just block the Judy hater. She's waiting for her colostomy bag stew.

by Liza!reply 219Last Wednesday at 9:33 AM

R215 you are a deranged Judy Garland worshipping loony who can't stand to hear the truth about her. It tears you to pieces to hear anything bad about her. Maybe you should talk to someone about that. You've very ill. Worshipping a dead celebrity like that is very unhealthy.

by Liza!reply 220Last Wednesday at 10:54 AM

"It's just a homophobic, misogynistic rant by some deranged sociopath who thinks Judy should be held responsible for everything except possibly Roy Moore. You didn't miss anything."

"Homophobic?" What an imbecile you are. What's "homophobic" or "mysogynistic" about telling the truth about Judy Garland? And that doesn't constitute being a "deranged sociopath", either, you insane twat. Sounds to me like you're the one suffering from derangement. You're one of those nutj ob Judy Garland fans who are so insane with love for her that any hard truths about her make you have a hissy fit. Boy, are YOU fucked up.

by Liza!reply 221Last Wednesday at 11:01 AM

R219 seems to have a preoccupation with...feces. People like that are called coprohiliacs. They like to talk about shit and they like to touch it and it. I think if Judy were alive he would want to eat her shit. Yes, I'm pretty sure he'd love to eat the shit of his beloved.

by Liza!reply 222Last Wednesday at 11:05 AM

Am I the only person who can't block people while using Safari? On Chrome it's fine, but I usually use Safari and those options don't pop up.

by Liza!reply 223Last Wednesday at 9:42 PM

r223 I use Safari and I get those round icons at the end of each post, including the block icon.

by Liza!reply 224Last Wednesday at 9:48 PM

I wonder why I don't? I have them on Firefox.

by Liza!reply 225Last Wednesday at 9:50 PM

R225 Ad blocker?

by Liza!reply 226Last Thursday at 6:52 AM

[quote]Judy would actually have been great in CABARET

Well, Cabaret was based on the 1954 play "I Am a Camera". And that play was based on "Goodbye to Berlin" written in 1939.

So actually, if Judy had been healthy and slim in the 1950s it could have been a great vehicle for her and Mickey Rooney.

Of course it would have been very different musical ... all cleaned up for the times. But the material was there.

by Liza!reply 227Last Thursday at 7:12 AM

And I forgot to mention the 1955 film:

by Liza!reply 228Last Thursday at 7:28 AM

Some people cannot accept that she was a very troubled person- probably bi-polar and an addict in her teens. He behavior at times was such that those closest to her would cease going near her, and at the end of her life all had, completely- her children, everyone. That's the end game of untreated addiction usually. That said she was a genius and her music and voice are for the ages.

by Liza!reply 229Last Thursday at 8:13 AM

I do have ad that it?

by Liza!reply 230Last Thursday at 10:41 AM

r230 Try disabling it on Hard to say if that's the culprit since different ad blockers work differently. Good luck. You need to be able block a whole bunch of posters around here or you'll go crazy!

by Liza!reply 231Last Thursday at 12:54 PM

you are right! and thank you.

by Liza!reply 232Last Thursday at 5:26 PM

that was it! I disabled it and the block feature is back. Glory.

by Liza!reply 233Last Thursday at 5:27 PM

Cheers. Now let's get back to Judy!

by Liza!reply 234Last Thursday at 6:08 PM

One of the Judy holy grails for me would be audio from her concert at the Robin Hood Dell sometime in the 1940's. I love Judy's voice in that period and I think a concert performance must have been astoundingly great.

by Liza!reply 235Last Thursday at 6:53 PM

Whats great about the Robin Hood Dell concerts is after her concert comeback in '51, she mostly had one playlist. She sang material in the earlier concert she only rarely performed later.

I love the name Robin Hood Dell. Need to Google and see how long it lasted.

by Liza!reply 236Last Friday at 2:46 AM

The Mann Center for the Performing Arts was founded in 1935 under the name Robin Hood Dell Concerts, as the summer venue for the concert presentations of the world famous Philadelphia Orchestra (known from 1935-1976 as The Robin Hood Dell Orchestra in the summer). The Center moved into its present outdoor facility in 1976, and subsequently was designated the Mann Music Center in honor of Fredric R. Mann, a Philadelphia businessman who supported the cause of summer musical performances in Fairmount Park. In 1998, the facility was renamed to “The Mann Center for the Performing Arts” to reflect the Center’s plans to broaden its programming and service to the overall community.

by Liza!reply 237Last Friday at 3:17 AM

What was the impetus for her singing there, does anyone know? Why this one-off in the 40s and then nothing else?

by Liza!reply 238Last Friday at 7:12 AM

She sang at a deli??!!

by Liza!reply 239Last Friday at 8:39 AM

R239, Judy supplied the ham

by Liza!reply 240Last Friday at 1:28 PM

I used to have this on vinyl.

by Liza!reply 241Last Friday at 1:34 PM

"The Man I Love", "Do, Do, Do", "Someone to Watch Over Me" were some of the Gershwin songs Judy period at the Dell.

by Liza!reply 242Last Saturday at 4:32 AM

WOW! Why in the world wasn't that recorded?? Judy and Kostelanetz? Divine.

by Liza!reply 243Last Saturday at 10:13 AM
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