Will & Grace Season 9

I love how they're going out of their way to try to hide how fat Debra's lower half got since the original series. It's like they're covering up a pregnant actress. Same tricks. Hiding her behind co-stars or props.

r1 Don't watch then.

[post redacted because linking to dailymail.co.uk clearly indicates that the poster is either a troll or an idiot (probably both, honestly.) Our advice is that you just ignore this poster but whatever you do, don't click on any link to this putrid rag.]

r3 jenna elfman, is that you?

I'm excited for its return!

Let's hope the article is right but, based on the promos I've seen on TV hyping its return, I don't have very high hopes. That article makes it seem that it's going to be like Murphy Brown: the humor based on dropped celebrity names and politicians de jour, which will be rendered extremely dated and unfunny in 5 years. Also, the bar for network sitcoms is set so low these days that one doesn't have to try too hard to have moderate success. I'll still give it a try - hopefully, I'll be pleasantly surprised.

r6 don't worry

Yes! I'm so happy it isn't a catastrophe. Thanks for making my day, OP. And others who are posting positive reviews.

R6 Yeah, the promo I didn't mind so much but the trailer I found awful. Can't believe we'll have Star Trek and Will&Grace on our TVs again soon!

We really don't deserve this much awesomeness in the world. I'm so excited our old friends are coming back. The only cherry on top would be if our actual old "Friends" came back, but they never will.

And another.

When was it on?

Will the media allow any negative reviews of this show? Or will they all have to be orgasmic like those above?

LIke All In The Fsmily W&G was a groundbreaking tv series. It gave a huge boost to the gay movement. We should all be grateful. It was also immensely entertaining. Thrilled it's back.

So no kids?

I hope that producer or writer you hear cackling in EVERY episode isn't not on the reboot. It was so damn distracting.

R3 is so precious. Minstrel show? You clearly don't know the meaning of that term.

Lilah?

Bobbi?

Listen, there’s no television show airing now that I regret as much as Will & Grace.

It angers me. It’s frustrating for me to watch. And mostly, it’s not even funny.

But generally speaking, it puts gay Americans in a very awkward position. Sure, it has been a hugely popular prime time hit for the generally queer friendly NBC. It’s allowed gay men (and their friends) into the homes of Americans who have probably harbored some bias against gay people because they’ve never actually known one in real life (or so they think).

Harvey Fierstein was notably quoted in the film documentary The Celluloid Closet as saying his philosophy on assimilating queer culture into straight culture is “visibility at any cost.” It’s an important concept to consider, and I can’t necessarily say I agree or disagree with that. Visibility is important, but Harvey, please—let’s do consider the cost.

To summarize Will & Grace, queerly, is to note that there are, visibly, two kinds of gay people: Wills and Jacks. The Wills of the world are slightly neurotic, mostly chaste, affluent men who hold white-collar jobs and live in Manhattan. Wills are often mistaken for your average heterosexual because they tend to display few, if any, outward “signs” of stereotypically homosexual behavior. The Jacks of the world are promiscuous, artistic types who walk around with a virtual spotlight on them. Jacks are “sad clowns,” humorists whose behavior often crushes those upon whom it is wielded. Jacks aren’t necessarily white-collar, although they know people who are, and somehow manage to eke out a living that affords them multiple trips to Banana Republic. If it isn’t clear yet, Jacks are your typical, “effeminate” gay men.

Both Jacks and Wills are exceptionally good-looking, have time and money for gym memberships. Jacks are restless; Wills tend to be homebodies.

This is great. Yes. There are Wills in the world who are actually out-and-out Wills, and that’s great. There are real Jacks in the world, too. But this show polarizes—actually puts into opposition—these two archetypes, creating a faulty either-or binary. Even the men who guest on the show typically fall into one of these safe categories. There isn’t a lot of queer diversity here.

I feel like Will & Grace is a big minstrel show. In the 1800s, minstrel shows involved white actors appearing in blackface to satirize the lives and experiences of African-American slaves on Southern plantations—for laughs, for white audiences. Out of this tradition grew several archetypes, including Jim Crow, the “care-free slave,” and Zip Coon, “the uppity” former slave who affects an attitude above his “station” in society.

Straight men playing gay men. For laughs.

What’s dangerous about the set-up of Will & Grace surrounds consumerism. If the show were created and packaged to be consumed by gay-only audiences, its political ramifications would change. Gay-produced satire for consumption by gay people is not a form of violence; it’s an act of community-building.

But since the show is provided to straight consumers, the humor in the show is not just born from the lives of the characters, their day-to-day trip-ups and foibles—it’s not only this, but also the fact that they are gay that provides humor to straight audiences. Gay people don’t laugh at Jack for being outlandish and effeminate because we don’t think there’s anything funny—see also “out of the ordinary or strange”—about that. But since most American humor is based on mocking the opposite of the dominant paradigm (um, say like Beverly Hillbillies), the humor in Will & Grace supports and reinforces limited stereotyping of gay men.

I wouldn’t expect an African-American audience to appreciate blackface—so why are gays (other than me) tuning in to Will & Grace? What is Will & Grace doing for the queer community in the long run?

Yeah we get it R1 R3 R19 R13, you're insecure about TV shows featuring a femme gay character, for some reason.

Not insecure. Repulsed.

[quote]Straight men playing gay men. For laughs.

Will isn't the worse example, what must he think about Eric Stonestreet on "Modern Family"?!

And for better or worse the gay community has always set there and allowed gay people being played by straight guys.

I'm happy the reviews are promising.

I feel they probably should have stopped with the one season for now. I bet the second season (didn't NBC already renew this?), will already start to feel stale.

So every show that depicts a gay character is obligated to also show a full cross section of every type of gay character that exists? Harvey Fierstein had a good point. In the era that Will & Grace arrived, it was a novelty just to have gay characters in leading roles. It was "shocking" and "risky" at the time and for many gay men, myself included, it was very exciting to see gay characters being exuberantly and unapologetically gay and not the water downed characters we got on Melrose Place and other shows. They were proudly displaying behavior many of us were mocked or bullied for or worse. A lot has changed since then as gay tv characters have evolved and become more three dimensional. But I don't think that would've happened without Will & Grace. I'd like to see what the reboot is like, existing in this far more progressive tv universe before I start chastising it for not representing all aspects of gay life. Besides, it's a fucking SITCOM.

R24 is correct. R19 is way too holier than thou about it. It's a TV show FFS.

Gay Shmay. I'm with OP and just want to see how many Maud-like maxi dresses they can put Debra Messing in. I was watching reruns the other day and she was so thin. You could see all her bones on her chest. Even with just a few extra pounds her giant hair makes her look even bigger.

You're a moron R19. How long do you think The Cosby Show would have lasted if Cosby had been in Dreadlocks and his kids rappers and gangbangers? W&G did what it could and was very smart about it . That's the genius of this show and largely why it was a top 10 hit for 8 seasons.

Debra looks gorgeous with the fuller figure

Great. Can't wait. Loved W&G. Glad it's coming back.

I took the TV Line test:

You are: Jack McFarland

You’re destined to be the center of attention, if you can get past all the hazards of your own personality.

[quote]The only cherry on top would be if our actual old "Friends" came back

God save us! Only the most frauiest frau could type that: the most unfunny show in the world apart from MASH.

Why did they get rid of the kids? More story ideas could have taken place,

Huh, r13? Who do you think is running all forms of media to determine reviews of TV shows?

R16 I thought I was the only one who noticed this. It was so obnoxious.

"Both Jacks and Wills are exceptionally good-looking, have time and money for gym memberships. Jacks are restless; Wills tend to be homebodies."

This made me laugh so hard, Jack has always been ugly and awkward. Nothing good looking about him.

They will do it one dark day, R31.

I think I'm one of the few former fans who isn't looking forward to this. As depressing as the original ending was (they didn't talk for 18 years?), I don't love the complete retcon either. So they're 50, never found significant others and are still living together? That's just sad. I know Bobby Cannavale's probably busy, but I would rather see Will & Vince (& Jack & Karen) than Will and Grace still living together in middle age.

You weren't R34, believe me. Central Casting casts "laughers" to sit in the audience and laugh really loud to get others going so I don't know if she was one of those or a crew member. It seemed like she could be heard every episode so I'm guessing she was a writer or producer.

I just hope that Rosario isn't sent back to her country by the Trumplings. And I'm hoping Beverly Leslie comes back from the grave after blowing away so spectacularly.

Never thought the show was funny and I never liked Friends either. I like "The Middle".

[quote] I like "The Middle"

Yeah, you're a true arbiter of good taste.

Karen is a huge Trump supporter and more: “Donnie is one of my oldest friends. I helped him pick out Melania.”

I never saw this show the first time. I may watch now just out of curiosity.

I've been watching some of the original series on demand , and I'm really glad it's coming back. It was pretty interesting seeing what they got away with back then...I'm sure they will push the envelope even more now.

Wonder how those "but I love my gays!" Trump voting fraus will feel about their man being trashed? Trust me, I unfortunately know a lot of them who just LOVE this show, but also voted for the orange buffoon.

I'd like to see Will living in the suburbs with a family and annoying neighbours he feels the need to keep up with.

R19 and others are you familiar with sitcoms? Most of the complaints about the Jack and Will characters are similar to someone complaining about Shakespeare's plays because they were written in iambic pentameter. Or complaining about Citizen Kane because it is in black and white.

I'm not elevating Will and Grace to the level of Romeo and Juliet or Citizen Kane, simply pointing out your complaints are with the genre.

Sitcoms: 23 22 minute episodes a year. Designed to make people laugh. Not just people, but a broad audience of people.

Basically you're criticizing W&G for failing to do something the show never intended to do or claimed to do.

Will every episode of the revival be based on around the guest stars like the original?

"Look! We got Matt Damon! Aren't we fabulous?" "Look! We got Madonna! Aren't we fabulous?" Fuck off.

Of course they have to retcon the ending r37. Them living happy and separate lives with their families means there is no "Will and Grace" show to be had.

Sitcom characters are inherently stuck in a stasis or sorts, they can't really grow or evolve too much as people. At the end of the day you have the mine these characters for humor, as it as sitcom and not a drama.

Wow. R46 is NUTS.

Did they kill off Rosario in the original? I didn't watch the last couple of seasons

What about the kids though?

Today I watched the highest rated episode of W&G ever...season 4, ep 16, "A Chorus Lie", starring DL fave Matt Damon.

R49 - I accept you calling me nuts,

Can you get more people to share you're onion?

[quote]It gave a huge boost to the gay movement

You're joking, right?

groundbreaking series for gays!!!

It was well written but it hasn't aged well mostly because of Jack. I wonder if they have toned his character down a bit. Are they acknowledging a decade gap in the storyline or is it kind of picking up where it left off (except for the finale)?

McCormack was so hot in seasons 2-5.

It wasn't ground breaking, it wasn't anything. A silly, stereotypical show for straights to laugh at 'the gays'.

Not really R58. You old gays have a complex from being teased so much when you were young. W&G is funny. The characters are not real people. Do Karen and Grace reflect poorly on women? I am under 40 and found the show corny and too hyper but it WAS groundbreaking. That much I know.

Yeah it was a popular hit where half the leads were gay men, it was definitely ground breaking whether you liked it or hated it.

yes, gay men who never dated, never had sex, were always with women, like straight couples

yep, groundbreaking!

[quote]yep, groundbreaking!

...yes. Because it was.

Those complains are absolutely fair, that has nothing to do with the fact that it was a ground breaking show.

I don't think you know what groundbreaking means

Closet-case or pussy hound gays loves this show.

[quote]I don't think you know what groundbreaking means

...this is a joke right?

Groundbreaking. Absolutely

It was as groundbreaking as The Staircase starring Rex Harrison and Richard Burton, because you know there were two gay characters in it

If it affected how the likes of Joe Biden see gay people, then yes, it's groundbreaking.

Seeing how those people make up the majority of the US populace, that was [italic]at the time[/italic] more important than concerns about it not depicting gays in a pitch-perfect way (how does one do that, anyway?). Not to even mention how the show helped those of us watching it in our respective shitholes across the ocean.

R19 is absolutely pathetic.

I just couldn't accept the fact that a guy as good-looking and successful as Will would be perpetually single, and in Manhattan of all places. It was just ridiculous.

People are allowed to criticize this show. Deal with it. You all sound like fangurls from Tumblr.

I love the irony of R69. The self-righteous, over defensive stans are the real pathetic ones. So we won't be allowed to snark on this show on DL at all without someone throwing a tantrum?

Are most of these replies even from regular DLers? When did y'all get so humourless?

The bitching about Jack always amused me, because every single one of us have known guys who are EXACTLY like Jack IRL.

"yes, gay men who never dated, never had sex, were always with women, like straight couples"

Exactly. So many here think that what may have been slightly groundbreaking in the late 90's is hardly so 20 years later. We're way beyond the "gay man and woman playing virtual hetero couple" thing now. And BTW, Ellen's coming-out episode was far more "groundbreaking" than W&G.

You dumb fags criticizing this realize there are no explicitly gay shows on American TV right now? This is the only one. It was extremely successful in its original iteration, and it’s getting good reviews. So shut the fuck up.

Haha...and this is why the gay movement is basically dead with idiots like R76 who’s happy with the crumbs being thrown at them

[quote]Exactly. So many here think that what may have been slightly groundbreaking in the late 90's is hardly so 20 years later

No one said Will and Grace is ground breaking NOW dear, but it was a groundbreaking show at the time in the 90s. How is this concept complicated?

And anyway, it was a popular show, given we are in the era of reviving shows it isn't surprising they revived this one.

Will had multiple relationships during the show's run. Why are people saying he never had sex?

Eventually r79.

It took several seasons before Will ever say exchanged a kiss with a male partner.

Tried to get into it back in the day. Found the humour a bit forced. Karen's baby voice was annoying like hell - had to put it on mute every time she spoke.

"Friends" was plain-vanilla, but the script-writing and execution of jokes felt more natural and relaxed.

"Frasier" was formulaic with its structure, but I enjoyed it for poking fun at neurotic intellectuals.

[quote]I just couldn't accept the fact that a guy as good-looking and successful as Will would be perpetually single, and in Manhattan of all places. It was just ridiculous.

Have you lived in Manhattan? It's all about getting the next best thing. When there are so many tantalizing options, it's difficult to commit.

Plus, Will was neurotic and sabotaged his relationships.

[quote]It was well written but it hasn't aged well mostly because of Jack.

It hasn't aged well period. Starting with the GINO and his faghag as a substitute hetero sitcom couple.

[quote]Haha...and this is why the gay movement is basically dead with idiots like [R76] who’s happy with the crumbs being thrown at them

You do realize that W&G was a very gay show? And like mentioned we currently don't have any shows with that much gay content? Throwing crumbs is when you have rarely seen gay side characters that generally fail to have serious gay storylines. W&G was gay through and through, and it showed us as likable human beings, which is its greatest achievement. You can obviously bitch about the quality of the writing but anyone claiming it was not influential is totally lying.

R81, I can't really watch old episodes of W&G either but then again neither can I watch Friends. The jokes in Friends aren't as funny as the laughter track tries to make you believe, and the characters get annoying fast. Now Frasier actually still works.

But it did happen, r80. Some people are acting as if he never kissed or had relationships on the show. You're correct that the show worked up to those moments but the show did go there.

I just rewatched the pilot and the scene where Karen (Megan M) was introduced has her talking in normal pitch. I had to rewind to make sure.

Yeah, Megan Mullally didn't use the "karen voice" at first.

Will & Grace was not groundbreaking. Queer as Folk (either version) was because it actually showed gay men as sexual human beings. Not sexless life-size handbags for hysterical straight women.

It may not have been groundbreaking to you, r88, but it did break ground for much of America. Will & Grace was a big broadcast TV hit. Queer as Folk was a little seen cable show. Will & Grace, being sandwiched next to Fraiser and Friends, was seen by millions of people each week and for some viewers, it was their only regular exposure to gay people on a weekly basis. It did move people and change their perspectives on gay people as human beings.

It's not perfect. Will and Jack weren't perfect. It's a comedy. It couldn't and won't be all things to all gay people. But the show did have a profound, groundbreaking effect on our culture. It's silly to claim it didn't.

Exactly. You gotta crawl before you walk. You were going to get "How to Get Away With Murder"-type fuck scenes without W&G breaking the ground first.

If John Barrowman had been cast in the role of Will as he should have, the character wouldn't have come off in such a pathetic sexless way. Even if Will got no action in the script, John would have made him sexual.

What I never understood is why they dressed Jack like he shopped at JC Penney's when any flaming queen worth his salt would have worn fabulous outfits that screamed "look at me" ! And him in the fashion capitol of the US ? I could take sexless Will,I could take shrieking ,terminally needy Grace,but THAT I could never forgive!

Rock Follies on the BBC with DL fave Countess Rula Lenska was doing stuff with gay french kissing etc, back in the mid 70s, so Will & Grace did look like a gay minstrel show to foreign eyes.

It looked like an above average American sitcom to foreign eyes, R93.

Europe is Europe, and America is America.

Queer as Folk played on a broadcast channel in the UK, where in America it was relegated to a subscription-only channel.

[quote]Today I watched the highest rated episode of W&G ever...season 4, ep 16, "A Chorus Lie", starring DL fave Matt Damon.

A guy I dated was an extra in that episode -- he was one of the chorus members (and actually was IN the Gay Men's Chorus at the time.)

Never watched it -- never will.

I'm with R19, guys -- so sue me.

I'm sorry but R19's article is full of shit. R97, if you haven't even watched the show and never will how can you even have an opinion?

[quote]To summarize Will & Grace, queerly, is to note that there are, visibly, two kinds of gay people: Wills and Jacks.

I mean... what? Geez, has this guy ever heard of a tv show before? Yes, W&G probably was slightly educational for some people but still it's just a fucking comedy. Comedies tend to make everything a bit larger, a bit nuttier, a bit more frantic. The show worked partly because Jack was such a nutcase and Will was a good, upstanding citizen.

[quote]I feel like Will & Grace is a big minstrel show.

[quote]Straight men playing gay men. For laughs.

This guy is just trying to get offended for the sake of it. Just because we have hets playing gay doesn't mean it ruins the whole thing, and come on everyone knew the guy playing Jack was not straight. There are tons of gay and bi actors in Hollywood playing het characters all the time so why get offended when the tables are turned? (And yes obviously I'm being a bit simple here.) In the end we at Datalounge are very well aware how many closet cases there are in Hollywood. I mean someone mentioned Matt Damon? Did he bring his Cuban lover to the shoot? W&G is partly the reason films like Brokeback Mountain and Moonlight get the funding. Yes they are largely made for straight people because the gay market just isn't big enough. Why should it matter? Are the people bitching about W&G those who hate that gay culture has been merging with the mainstream straight one? BTW, I do get why that annoys some people very well, I just don't agree with it.

So what do we get when we have gay people making gay comedy with mostly gay actors? We get Looking. Like with Looking people expected W&G to be something they needed it to be perfectly. Well neither of those shows were perfect but they were successful in their own ways. I loved W&G for being sometimes very funny but mostly I loved that it made the big masses love gay characters. I loved Looking for... well, hmm, I liked the first season to a point but the whole thing just failed to grasp me emotionally. I still enjoyed watching it.

R59 Suck my cock, asshole. Seriously. And I'm sure you're some semi-closeted 79 year old who thinks playing "Cards Against Humanity" makes you hip with the 18 year olds you chase after.

Break a hip, cunt.

"Looking" will always have a special place in my heart. Gay characters that felt real, tons of gay actors in the cast, intelligent writing that really spoke to life as a gay male.

Sad that we only got 20 episodes of it. But not surprised. It moved slowly and wasn't an all audiences sitcom like "Will and Grace" or "Modern Family" or a over the top sexy soap opera like "Queer as Folk"

R19 is right. PERIOD.

These assholes defending this crap show are the same ones who attack Modern Family and such, not seeing the irony. And they're all empty-headed kooks who think laughing at homophobic stereotypes makes them 'in' with their straight co-workers who 'tolerate' us.

R100 I agree about Looking. The critics and a lot of gays apparently hated it but I loved the show. The characters felt like real people like myself and those around me. They were good looking in most instances but not perfect.

R70 A 40 year old bottom being single in New York is hardly unrealistic.

Modern Family came years after W&G, so of course people expected it to step it up.

[quote] A 40 year old bottom being single in New York is hardly unrealistic.

I didn't find his being single unrealistic at all. However, a reasonably good looking gay guy who's a lawyer would have plenty of one-night stands or dates, if nothing else. He certainly wouldn't be spending his evenings with one of the most self absorbed and annoying women in the universe, playing charades with her and a tragic straight couple from New Jersey.

I had to laugh at someone upthread saying these two still living together after all this time is pathetic. As if a corporate lawyer and a self-employed interior designer with a Manhattan office would be roommates in the first place.

Be honest. It was the Karen Show. Everything else was just filler.

It was because they were friends and wanted to live together for emotional support r106, not out of any financial necessity.

The premise of the beginning of the show was both Will and Grace just went through a nasty break up so they decided to live together. Didn't Grace decide she was ready to move out and lived across the hall at some point?

And people do chose to live together even though they could afford not to r106.

[quote]And people do chose to live together even though they could afford not to

Do they [italic]really,[/italic] though? Outside of romantic arrangements, I mean. I don't know, it just seems weird that two middle-aged childless friends with a crapload of money would live together.

[quote] it just seems weird that two middle-aged childless friends with a crapload of money would live together.

Makes sense to me. It was always made plain Grace is mooching her rent and living expenses off Will. Then takes the saved cash for her endless wardrobe.

Easy. Will and Grace live together because they are not mentally stable people. It provides a lot of the show's comedy, and it's probably why you wouldn't want to know them in real life. That's enough for me in terms of buying into *fictional* characters.

[quote]If John Barrowman had been cast in the role of Will as he should have, the character wouldn't have come off in such a pathetic sexless way. Even if Will got no action in the script, John would have made him sexual.

Honestly the show probably wouldn't have been a hit. Don't think 90s america was ready for a Will that exuded sexuality. Just the reality.

[quote]Honestly the show probably wouldn't have been a hit. Don't think 90s america was ready for a Will that exuded sexuality. Just the reality.

This. Eric McCormack was perfect for Will as written. Like a less spastic Chandler Bing.

I have a good friend much like Will. He's an executive, obsessed about his looks and terrified of aging. He's never been in a relationship and rarely has sex. No one,it seems, is perfect enough for him. There are more Wills out there than anyone knows.

There's a weird misconception on DL that if you look a certain way and have a good career, all of your problems are solved. People can bring a lot of mental baggage from childhood regardless of your privilege.

I mean the reality is Will didn't really date much through a lot of the show, especially at first, because they didn't want it to be too gay and scare the audience off, it isn't a secret, they openly talked about having to "earn those moments" with the audience.

Max Mutchnik even admitted he wanted the less sophisticated members of the audience to believe Will and Grace would eventually get together, knowing they never would.

Can't remember who said it but some celebrity told the creators "just don't make it about buttsex and you'll be ok".

R115 seems to think that her misunderstanding of what people here say and what their motives are (including camp, doublespeak, transgressive parody and silly black humor) means that DL posters are naive about trauma.

Just about all I see here is the result of trauma, rich and poor DLers alike.

So R115 needs to SHUT THE FUCK UP, the little frau.

Oh, and this show was aimed at the straight market, not the gay market, the latter being expected to go along and be thrilled that watching a straightish man play the gay male star and the still-closeted gay co-star play a stereotype (Not that there's anything wrong with that, right? We all like the gay equivalent of Prissy being presented, right?).

If it's grown up, fine. But where the humor will be I can't imagine.

Priss miss warwick has entered the building. Smell that ancient queen.

Love the people who are saying the show wasn't groundbreaking because Will wasnt eating raw loads on screen in the 90's. This seems like the sort of people who think everyone will support trans rights if you make a racist LoReal spokesperson an advocate for your community.

Take a lesson from an effective civil rights movement. But to do that, you'd have to study history, which most of you are trying to erase because it's "triggering".

10,000 W&W's @ R89. Like it or not, I think this show played a role in the gradual shift towards greater acceptance of gay people by "mainstream" society. Being a gay man today is very different than it was before, say, the late 1990's. Having portrayals of gay men living normal lives (even if there was stereotyping involved) did contribute to having "gay" be a much less "hush hush" topic that nobody wanted to talk about. This show put it out there during prime time TV and people started getting accustomed to it and realizing that *surprise* there just may be gay people all around and they have careers, friends, family, and many of the same challenges in live as everyone else.

oops, typo.....I meant in *life* (not live). Sorry...

“I think the Will & Grace thing and the gay thing is going to work out great!”

I guess NBC isn't here for plunging necklines and miniskirts so Ms Kelly has burqa'ed herself up a bit.

That outfit looks straight outta 1980

Oh dear God...anyone who thinks this show was groundbreaking needs a history lesson. Honestly, how can gay people be SO stupid about our own cultural history?

Went to theatre school with Eric in Toronto in the '80s. A genuinely nice, talented guy.

My goodness. What might have been.

R124, that guy in the blue shirt is one sexy DILF!!! Looks slightly like SC's star Daniel.

R127, it was groundbreaking for the country, like it or not. Get over yourself Kween

The entire premise of the show was to de-gay the gay characters. It's repellent.

Broadway's Tony darling Ben Platt (Dear Evan Hansen) is guest starring next month as a young gay man who has a crush on Will. The episode is titled "Who's Your Daddy?"

The show lost me with that Garden Gnome episode - simply atrocious, and I just lost any desire to watch it again...

groundbreaking!

I'm pushing 40 and never had a boyfriend. Not everyone has an active sex or dating life.

As someone said above, the WHOLE POINT of the show was to have people thinking that Will and Grace would end up romantically together. This was telegraphed in episode after episode, season after season.

Before the final season began filming, the creators said that they were seriously considering having Will START DATING WOMEN (!!!!!!!) and then Grace would feel so jealous. WHY would a GAY MAN start "dating women"???? What a positive thing for us Gays.

Repulsive. What a sick, sick series this was.

[quote]This was telegraphed in episode after episode, season after season.

R137 Not really, just in the first ever episode. And I totally get why the showrunners would be nervous with that pilot as nothing like it was ever done on mainstream TV before.

People bitching about gay stereotypes clearly have never watched a sitcom in their lives. Every character on a sitcom is a two dimensional stereotype, that's their bread and butter. The shrewish mother in law, the pretty wife hardly old enough to be the mother of teenagers, the goofy dad, the wacky friend etc etc

We've all known flaming fags like Jack.

Yes judge the entire series by the pilot. Trump for brains?

Before the final season began filming, the creators said that they were seriously considering having Will START DATING WOMEN (!!!!!!!) and then Grace would feel so jealous. WHY would a GAY MAN start "dating women"???? What a positive thing for us Gays.

A lukewarm, half-heartedly positive review from the New York Times.

Eh. Poniezwonikwhateverthefuck generally writes terrible reviews. His Trump slip is showing.

this show was conceived out of guilt. This is a fundamental problem with portrayal of stories between gay men : that it excludes women if a story focuses on them. There's this built-in guilt which manifests itself in drag acts or in the case of this show (or even a film like Brokeback Mountain), having female characters hang around for no purpose but to make sure something doesn't come across as too homosexual.

It makes business sense to include women in gay male narratives. The gay male audience just isn't big enough to support a series, and women are much more likely to support a gay male series than straight men.

"Looking" really only had Murray Barlett's faghag as a female voice, and she was rarely seen.

I think Debora Messing looks great with a little extra weight.

Yeah the cold truth is the only reason Queer as Folk ran for so long is straight women latched onto it.

At least Debra's got tits now.

"Be honest. It was the Karen Show. Everything else was just filler."

My Beaverhausen is absolutely filled with pride.

This thing is going to TANK.

[quote]People bitching about gay stereotypes clearly have never watched a sitcom in their lives.

And I honestly admire those people.

[quote]"Looking" really only had Murray Barlett's faghag as a female voice, and she was rarely seen.

No. That annoying sister character. She was there for no purpose at all.

I’m going to laugh my ass off when this is one of the biggest hits of the season.

Grace was pregnant with Lilah for much season 9, they can't just dream that part away.

Of course they can r155. It is a retcon, and in the new continuity of the show Will and Grace never had kids.

It is just a sitcom, it isn't like continuity has ever been an important consideration in sitcoms.

I just don't get why this was needed at all. Who is clamoring for it?

If I was NBC, I would have just handed a pilot to Megan Mullally and said, do whatever the hell you want with it.

[quote]I just don't get why this was needed at all. Who is clamoring for it?

It ain't complicated. NBC thinks it will make them money and the actors were willing to come back to the roles.

And it's tough to launch a new original comedy these days, and even if a small fraction of W&G's old audience returns, it's a win.

R1 and R3 sound like Matt the Loon.

So, basically, Will and Grace have been married to each other for 19 years since 1998, plus however long they lived together before the series premiere.

There you go, Gays! There is your model!

That's a lot more successful than most gay relationships, R161.

God R161 is exhausting.

This mantra that Will/Grace/Jack are failures for living together and not being in a relationship is kinda fucked up.

They have companionship and happiness and people in their lives that care about them. Life isn't a failure because you don't get married or whatever, that is a disturbing way to look at things.

R162 tells us we might as well be straight. Or sexless.

As long as we are with women instead of men.

A very positive review from Vulture.

I hope they cut the big opening number where Deb Messing sings "It's As If We Never Said Goodbye."

R161 who looks at a show like Will & Grace as an instructional manual on how to live their lives? If it too low brow for you, don't watch it. Some people really see problems where there aren't any.

Will and Grace was what it was - a network sitcom that panders to a broad demographic. Like "Friends" being a show about what flyover people imagine living in NYC to be like.

Exactly r169 all the shows are a bunch of stereotypes played for broad laughs. If people want quality television this isn't it, so they should find something else instead of tuning in and fuming about what a load of rubbish it is.

It's like going to McDonalds and bitching you didn't receive a gourmet meal.

Tonight's episode explains that Grace has moved back in after getting a divorce two months ago, people. The characters haven't been living together for the last 11 years.

Yeah many reviews have mentioned that, Will and Grace weren't living together while the show was off the air.

Also all the reviews said tonight's episode was the weakest of the first three.

How many of us will be watching tonight? Or hate-watching?

Like a proper millennial I don't watch things live, but I'll catch it on streaming.

[quote]and still without kids in their early '40s

How kind they are to 54 year old Eric McCormack

I will be watching! You guys took "Looking" away from me, so this is pretty much what is left.

Max Greenfield (Schmidt from "New Girl") will guest-star this season.

I'd really like to see an openly gay actor cast as a love interest for Will. Given the complaints about Will being played by a straight guy, seems to be a way to make people happy. Hell if you bring in John Barrowman it would be nice and meta.

R178 It'd be even more meta if Barrowman played a character called Will who had a similar life.

R178, isn't Ben Platt gay? He plays a love interest for Will in the second episode. Wish granted!

John Barrowman is devoid of charm. The show doesn't need grease. Colton Haynes or the go to gay Bomer could provide more interesting love, sex or relationship conundrums. They are both too good looking? No, only Matt. They said that Will and Jack will continue to represent the self centered neurotic effeminate gay man BUT now as they approach DADDY status and gay invisibility. Should send DL into further meltdowns....when bottoms are forced to top or give up sex.

Debra chose her face and I think she chose wisely. I've never been a fan of the bonus clavicle look.

[quote]How long do you think The Cosby Show would have lasted if Cosby had been in Dreadlocks and his kids rappers and gangbangers?

He didn't need to, he was too busy raping lesbians on the side while str8splaining to everyone on camera.

We don't need any more of this Uncle Tom shit, and we don't need gay versions [italic]Cosby Show[/italic] or [italic]Friends[/italic] since the originals were totally unwatchable to begin with.

Thanks for that video, R184. I had no idea that hate for Will and Grace had reached the dizzy heights of 65 views.

Yes we do, R184. You'd FINALLY get a piece of the pie.

[quote]a gay George Jefferson

Redundant.

Just as I feared - this is Murphy Brown v2.0.

Can they write a joke that's not painfully topical? Shades of Murphy Brown.

Kyle Bornheimer is hot.

oh, I thought it might be disappointing - didn't know it would be that bad. It did seem familiar though.

The all look so old and tired. And the constant topical jokes will make this show as dated as Murphy Brown.

Yes, they all look older but that's OK - there is a 10 year gap. But, then, why try to make them look and dress exactly the same as in 1998?? It just makes things worse.

[quote] why try to make them look and dress exactly the same as in 1998??

The last time Karen changed her look was the first FDR administration

I don't hear the old cackling producer laughing at every joke. Yay!

Watched it and liked it. I did think that they looked older (duh!) but that was ok as we all are but I think it showed most on Sean. Jack should have changed but he didn't which was well noted during his talk with the secret service guy. I like having them back. But the plan is for only one season. I guess ratings will tell. I hope it's just for this season. That would be enough.

"Jack should have changed but he didn't"

Hayes did a (failed) sitcom a while back where he had so much filler pumped into his face that he looked like an orange balloon.

"But the plan is for only one season."

I think the re-vamp has already been green-lighted for a second season.

[quote]But the plan is for only one season. I guess ratings will tell. I hope it's just for this season.

It was already renewed for a season 2 before it even premiered.

While I get that the whole point is to bring back a (beloved) show, the episode was EXACTLY the same.

The show ran out of steam and had mined all there was to the premise long before it's final couple seasons.

Other than harping on current politics, what makes them think there's anything left there? Based on the premiere, there certainly isn't anything new or interesting to mine.

R190, he played a gay guy on Modern Family last night, too.

Did anyone else notice that Jack made a sly reference to Will "presenting?"

For a split second, I was expecting him to add "hole" afterwards. it was like someone starting a knock-knock joke, but not finishing it.

I loved it. I wasn't expecting anything profound. It's fan service with a little light propaganda just because they knew they could get away with it. The Murphy Brown style of topical humor definitely was suited just to this episode, from what I've heard. The only thing that I really noticed was the editing didn't quite feel the same as the original. It was a little sloppier for this episode. However, if they wanted to bring the old fans back they nailed it.

r202 here. One of Grace's final lines was a nod to the political humor. "Let's forget politics and go back to the way things were." meaning the episode was meant to be just a way to brush everything out in the open and out the door.

[quote] Did anyone else notice that Jack made a sly reference to Will "presenting?"

Definitely! I immediately thought that one of the writers is a DLer.

And "Will and Grace" has always made lots of topical, pop culture references. This isn't new.

The show delivered the same type of laughs it always has, it wasn't trying to be a some brand new show, it was giving you Will and Grace. But it was gayer as befit it being 2017, in the past we it was several seasons before there was a same-sex kiss. This time there was one in episode 1.

The funny thing? Every single person here who's defending this show has been blasting Modern Family as a minstrel show since it went on the air. The irony.

It just wasn't funny. Tired old bits, a show relying entirely on nostalgia. And the Trump stuff was incredibly tame.

So Grace's baby...died? Disappearing the kids was absurd.

I'm just glad there isn't another Chicago Fire, Chicago PD, Chicago Sanitation Workers spinoff on the schedule. I'll take it. Great News had some funny moments too.

Chicago Drag is the show they should bring to air.

[quote]a show relying entirely on nostalgia

It is a revival, that is in the definition.

I haven't really followed Messing since the original WAG, but watching tonight's premiere....any RuPaul's Drag Race fans found her face to be eerily similar to Trinity Taylor?

If Grace was never pregnant, did the Taye Diggs storyline ever really happen?

Is Deb still doing lines off her dressing room coffee table while her kids watch?

How many episodes are planned for the 9th season?

Just finished watching it. I really enjoyed it. It's familiar and warm. Looks like they were setting up the scene for whatever is coming. There were some laugh out loud moments and it was great. I'll be watching it.

Definitely felt more real to the original after my second viewing, once the revival premiere shock subsided. I actually laughed more the second time around.

[quote] The funny thing? Every single person here who's defending this show has been blasting Modern Family as a minstrel show since it went on the air. The irony.

MF is dead to me after they sold us out with that transkid propaganda. Where's the gay show that neither stereotypes us as either sluts or prudes or sells us out to the cult of jenn-durr?

[quote] Thanks for that video, [R184]. I had no idea that hate for Will and Grace had reached the dizzy heights of 65 views.

There are other gay critics of this shit, too.

Don't you realize you're making fun of gay people?

Eh it was decent, better than some of the new shit thats on the air.

R216 - probably best you stick with Murder She Wrote.

Kyle Bornheimer was super-hot. Does he suck dick?

Sean and Eric's eyes look strange. Like they've shrunk. What's that from? Megan has turkey neck which is refreshing to see and she looks great for nearly 60.

How long before trans/genderqueer/non-binary start bitching about inclusion?

[quote] Kyle Bornheimer was super-hot. Does he suck dick?

I'd say yes.

[quote]The funny thing? Every single person here who's defending this show has been blasting Modern Family as a minstrel show since it went on the air. The irony.

Sorry, I liked Will & Grace last night and like Modern Family, too. Cam in (and out of) his caftan this week was hilarious.

I thought it was ok as a pilot to reboot the show. It felt a liitle stale but comfy. Not too jarring for a restart to a very familiar show.

The actor playing the Secret Service man was also on Modern Family the night before, playing the first guy Jesse Tyler Ferguson's character ever tried to kiss. Seems odd he'd be on network tv two nights in a row playing a non stereotypical gay character on two different networks.

Bornheimer is married (to a woman) with kids.

An interesting take on W&G in the Trump era.

I enjoyed the episode, and I laughed at the "presenting" line as well! I agree that the editing and transitions between shots seemed a little sloppy. The redesign of Will's fireplace looks great although that creepy portrait is still hanging to its side. Meagan lost a lot of weight over the last few years, eh? Looking forward to rewatching ep 1 and seeing what's to come next week.

...and Will is still fit, the bastard!

I don't know why but like Delta Burke, Megan Mullaly is much funnier with the extra weight on her for some reason. Maybe it is the bigger rack or something.

I'm not too impressed. It more reminds me of the last couple of seasons than the first few which were great. I was very annoyed by the fake laughter at every SINGLE line spoken. Even if there was a real audience they would not laugh that way.

I do have 2 questions. My eyesight isn't that good even with my glasses. What did the red cap at the end say? I'm sure it wasn't MAGA? I couldn't get a good look at Debra Messing's face. I could she she has a fairly average body type now, not extremely thin, certainly not overweight, but has she aged much?

MAKE AMERICA GAY AGAIN!

r232 -

The hat said 'Make America Gay Again.'

Debra Messing is pumped full of fillers. Her face is completely round.

Big ratings for W&G's return.

God, not that shit again!

The best premiere by an NBC comedy (excluding post-Olympics episodes) since 2011.

RATINGS FOR SCRIPTED SHOWS - WEEK 1: SEPT. 25 - OCT. 1

1. The Big Bang Theory - 4.1

2. This Is Us - 3.9

3. Young Sheldon (NEW) - 3.8

4. Will and Grace (NEW) - 2.9

5. Empire - 2.4

6. Kevin Can Wait / Grey’s Anatomy - 2.3

8. The Good Doctor (NEW) - 2.2

9. Modern Family - 2.1

10. The Goldbergs / Star - 1.8

12. Me Myself & I (NEW) / NCIS / Law & Order: True Crime (NEW) / American Housewife - 1.6

16. SEAL Team (NEW) / Chicago Fire - 1.5

18. Speechless / Law & Order: SVU - 1.4

20. The Brave (NEW) / Bull / Criminal Minds / Chicago P.D. / The Good Place / Great News - 1.3

26. Lethal Weapon / Superstore - 1.2

28. The Blacklist / Designated Survivor / How to Get Away with Murder / The Orville - 1.1

32. Scorpion / NCIS: NOLA - 1.0

34. The Mick - 0.9

35. Gotham - 0.8

36. Brooklyn Nine-Nine - 0.7

Understandable. A lot of people tuned in given that it was much fanfared return of a sitcom that was very popular in its heyday. But they'll need to up their game significantly if they want to keep those numbers week in, week out.

When was it on?

From 1998 - 2006, r240.

That list R238 posted is truly tragic and it illustrates so well why the concept of a major network is an antiquated one.

Agree, r242. I'm hardly a millennial, I'm 40, and even at my age I see that list and think "lame!" except for a couple of shows.

Will and Grace was essential to the movement of more gay and lesbian representation in the US media. Remember the old saying "You can catch more flies with honey than with vinigar"? With comedy and laughter (und unthreatening gay characters with no sex on camera) Will and Grace managed to get people around to think more positively about gay men and lesbian women and think less about them in a degrading or dismissive way.

(and unthreatening gay characters ...)

and not und. Sorry.

You shouldn't be surprised r242 and r243. The big network shows are not the cool, popular shows.

That niche is dominated by cable and online outlets, just the way it works. Even the emmys largely ignores network shows now.

I'm sure NBC is thrilled with W&G's performance, but it can't be happy that viewers essentially tuned into W&G and didn't sample any other Must See TV comedies.

No one's surprised, R246. Just posting the stats.

I haven't been able to stand Eric McCormack since he spoke on a late night talk show about being circumcised at age 5. Then when his son was born he had him clipped because it's "the American thing to do."

R246 Those ratings are ratings points in key demographics. In total viewers, network shows are far ahead of cable and streaming.

Will and Grace got 10m viewers overall, which puts it in the top 30 shows of the year so far, and the top 25 scripted shows. It's also the third most watched comedy after the Big Bang Theory and Modern Family (19m and 10.8m). The only cable series in the top 30 are the Walking Dead and Game of Thrones, with 16m each.

Streaming services don't release their ratings. However, Netflix released ratings for Orange is the New Black (believed to be its most popular show), which had 6.7m.

Yes, I recognize they get more Nielsen viewers, but those aren't the cool buzzed about shows.

r250, I believe the streaming referenced in this thread are the "off the record" streaming sites, that younger people watch in huge numbers, not the official stuff like cable streaming or Netflix.

These were the top 30 shows in the demo last season (GoT didn't air). Note these ratings include seven days of DVR viewing, so it's not just live.

t 1. The Walking Dead 8.0

2. NFL Sunday Night Football NBC 6.9

3. NFL Thursday Night Football NBC/NFL Network 5.2

4. NFL Thursday Night Football CBS/NFL Network 5.0

5. The Big Bang Theory CBS 4.9

6. This Is Us NBC 4.8

7. Empire Fox 4.3

8. NFL Monday Night Football ESPN 3.9

9. Modern Family ABC 3.7

10. Grey’s Anatomy ABC 3.5

11. American Horror Story FX 3.4

12. The Bachelor ABC 3.1

13. The Voice (Monday + Tuesday) NBC 3.0

14. Designated Survivor ABC 2.9

15. How To Get Away With Murder ABC/Scandal ABC 2.6

17. Survivor CBS/Talking Dead AMC/NCIS CBS/Chicago Fire NBC/ The Goldbergs ABC 2.5

22. Law & Order: SVU NBC/Criminal Minds CBS/Black-ish ABC/Lethal Weapon Fox/Chicago PD NBC.2.4

27 Bull CBS/Kevin Can Wait CBS/Speechless ABC 2.2

30. The Simpsons Fox/American Housewife ABC/The Middle ABC/Dancing With the Stars ABC/The Blacklist NBC/Timeless NBC/Chicago Med NBC/24: Legacy Fox/Love & Hip Hop Atlanta 6 VH1

I laughed, enjoyed it. And then the nostalgia for another time just crushed me and killed my buzz.

Debra Messing's nose also looks different, R234. Not like she had a nose job to make it smaller or more attractive, but it simply looked different than it used to, especially from the front. Also, Sean Hayes's voice seemed raspy, no?

All of their faces were full of fillers and caked with make up.

They are all literally 20 years older than they were when they started playing these characters, they are all desperately trying to fight the ravages of time.

[quote]they are all desperately trying to fight the ravages of time.

Like we all are, or soon will be. Only they have to do in HD while being judged by millions of people, so they do have it a bit rougher. (And are compensated accordingly.)

"they are all desperately trying to fight the ravages of time."

Aren't we all..

They look fine. Eric McCormack is older than Rue McClanahan was at the start of "The Golden Girls" and Megan Mullally, as others have noted, will soon be 60.

Thanks for the info R233 and R234. I missed the one laugh I would have gotten. I had a feeling DM might have had some work done before she went back to this.

As I said I didn't find it especially good, not bad but nothing too good or funny. That said I would not begrudge them a successful comeback. Now Roseanne I hope flops before the 3rd week. There is no actor on that show I can still stand, most of all Trump lover Roseanne who forgot what it is like to be poor or working poor.

Oops, sorry, R260 = R232.

W&G adjusted up to a 3.0 rating in the demo, which is a huge milestone in these lean times for TV.

Sucks that NBC surrounded it with these quirky, multi-cam comedies. None of them seem like a good fit for W&G, which is why none of them saw a big bump.

R260 Last night, on Twitter, several deplorables were lamenting how the ABC sitcom, Last Man Standing, was unfairly canceled and how it was better than Will & Grace. I watched a couple of Last Man Standing before, and it was just your average boring family sitcom with Tim Allen. So if Roseanne can calm the down and act like an average frau in her sitcom (a tall order given how crazy she is now), she may get the Last Man Standing audience.

Next week's episode sounds like it will be funnier than this one.

The reviews were pretty consistent that the first one was the weakest of the three they watched.

I really liked the premiere and I'm glad it's doing so well. Frothy must be hate-masturbating furiously right now.

God, that Tim Allen crap was like some throwback to the 90s (and not good 90s like Seinfeld or Frasier) Plus, it was rather right wing. Surprised it took them that long to cancel it.

It's unfortunate that it triggered so many deplorables but they couldn't [italic]not[/italic] deal with the election after that special earlier that basically caused this revival to happen. The critics have all said that the hard political stuff is in the first episode only.

The deplorables thing is funny to me, Will and Grace has always been a progressive show. The very idea of having a gay titular character in 90s America was progressive. The humor has always been progressive. I mean the characters ARE "latte liberal" Manhattanites.

What on earth do you expect?

The show was barely anti-Trump. The jokes were pretty lame, and VERY tame.

The show was never meant for gay people and nothing's changed. It's a show for straights who think they're tolerant, to laugh at stereotypes and peoople getting called "fag".

Triggered.

[quote]The show was never meant for gay people and nothing's changed.

Yet there seem to be many gay people posting here that enjoyed it. It's almost as if your opinion isn't universal.

As long as Karen still occasionally tosses off a withering "Oh, Wilma," I will continue to be a fan

The focus really needs to be on Karen. Her life still has the same ingredients that made it hilarious in the first place. With the rest, well, it's going to be a mixture of laughter and tears.

R274 i commend the writers and producers for giving equal storylines to all the characters even when they knew the breakout star was Karen. i'm sure it helped the cast relationships and that's why the chemistry works so well.

Karen is hilarious of course, but too much Karen would dissipate the fun of the character.

Yeah, you can't have someone as broad as Karen as the lead. She works as a frenemy for Grace.

We loved it. The opening scene where they wove in an explanation of the last 11 years and Jack posing for a Grindr pic was absolutely brilliant.

Watching it was like reminiscing with an old friend you lost touch with, and just reconnected with. You've been seen and done a lot, but you are able to pick up where you left off, as if the absence never happened.

This is an interesting tidbit about W&G's ratings success.

[quote] More amazingly, Thursday’s premiere drew a bigger crowd than any episode of W&G’s final season in 2005–06, excluding the series finale.

R270 is annoying AF. Get over yourself.

I was glad to see it again. It was as funny as I remembered it to be. Not particularly clever, but entertaining. I am glad it's back.

Sean Hayes is better looking as an older man.

Sean Hayes was a twink in his 20s when W&G started. He is now pushing 50. God, if that doesn't make you realize the passage of time!

The secret service agent was cute.

R284 He has weird shaped head.

It was kind of potato heady but still.

R286 An Irish potato head, to be exact. ;D

I enjoyed it, it felt just like old times. Jack's had some work done since the special last year and it's really not that bad, he could pass for mid to late 30s. Karen's neck has also improved, she looks great for basically 60.

When Jack said a power gay is called an Anderson Cooper, I honestly expected Will to say no that's a power bottom.

I thought the Jada Pinkett Smith joke was kind of bold... loved the Caitlyn joke,

I enjoyed it too. It was rarely laugh-out-loud funny (what is?) but it was comforting to have old friends back.

I'll definitely keep watching

R289 I still don't get the Jada reference. Someone please explain it to me.

Glad they made Karen a Trump vote-- will make for some hilarious moments

R236 I will never give a shit what deplorables think.

R291... the set up was "she... don't get me started".... I think the implication was she's synonymous with ridiculous and annoying... could be anybody, could have been Madonna but they went with Jada who really does nothing except complain foolishly.

Reading these posts and review notices, I’m reminded of those written about when Lucille Ball returned to TV at Desilu in an incarnation (albeit as a different character and in a new sitcom) of “Lucy” to CBS in 1962. The inevitable passed-time star, storylines, editing and character evolution comparisons are inevitable, IMO.

Personally, I enjoyed the revamp last night for what it was, which was welcomed, happy, nostalgic froth. I wasn’t looking for Shakespeare. I think when they su they’ve renewed the show for a Season 2 already, I’ll bet that means tagging on another 16 episodes to the 16 reportedly green lighted originally for this reboot originally. Then there you go, a full, regular W&G “Season 9,” in the end. I just hope they don’t do just 16 this sitcom year after all, and mimic the SNL practice of airing a new episode followed by multiple repeats of that or other preempts, before the next new one. For characters and the actirs’ energies interacting with each other, they really need that regular continuity.

All this said, I think then this is a great opportunity to give a focus on characters, interests and topics related to middle aged gays, who along with their straight counterparts haven’t really been so spotlighted in a successful show since The Golden Girls in its original-run heyday, in many ways

W&G, like “Lucy,” in its ensemble and its sitcom is really like a known franchise now, and something comforting and funny you want to return to each week because you can depend on the type of comedy it delivers and you don’t want to miss what Gaga and laughs they might have in store for you that next week.

I loved it.

Did Queerty pay for "product placement?"

It was great. Not perfect. But really fun. And, me, like many others, thought the secret service agent was hot af.

I haven't watched it yet but for the life of me I just don't get people shitting all over shows they don't care for. There are probably close to a million different things you could watch at any given moment on TV, don't like something watch something else, read a book, listen to music, go play with yourself.

OK. Kyle Bornheimer needs to become a regular.

He's a STAR!

I didn't get when Karen made an O shape with her hand and then looked through it. ?? This was after they were joking about W&G never having kids.

r302 it was her reply to Jack asking, "What would be funny about that?" her gesture was meant to mean "Nothing."

Where was the celebrity cameo?

Kyle Bornheimer had two or three failed sitcoms a while back. I don't think anyone's going to be giving him his own show again anytime soon.

[quote] I don't think anyone's going to be giving him his own show again anytime soon.

Well, there's always gay porn.

So he's doing well then.

R304 Oh don't get them started. Show should just stick to name dropping for the first season.

[quote]critics are in love.

Then I'll only watch shows they hate from now on.

Someone on DL really hate this show. This thread got ff'ed, too.

I enjoyed the premier. I hope they can bring back Leslie Jordan.

R311 No need to hope. It's happening. Beverly Leslie rides again. I bet he's heading something or other in DC now.

He's the Vice President.

Those who hate W&G: what do you watch and enjoy?

And to think...Will and Grace could have been..,John Barrowman and Nicolette Sheridan!

Yikes!

R313 Brilliant! No one better to be the President of Vice.

Kyle Bornheimer had two or three failed sitcoms a while back. I don't think anyone's going to be giving him his own show again anytime soon.

Not necessarily, R305

[quote] Those who hate W&G: what do you watch and enjoy?

Shows that are actually funny and depict gays in a positive light.

R318 You mean the shows that only exist in your heads.

Such as, R318? Your umbrage is substantiated, but not your argument.

R318 and R249 are both disgusting.

[quote]Bornheimer is married(to a woman)

How dare he!

I never saw the original but I did see this.

I thought it a brilliant take down of the limousine liberal, the type that has values until money, sex, or even candy is involved. It is a sly and funny parody of the Clinton voters who cannot be bothered beyond #resist on facebook.

Jack's Datalounge Relevancy (I found this on Mic.com:)

Jack McFarland in 2017 is a thing we haven’t really seen on television before: an aging twink. Sean Hayes was a lithe, adorable, theatrical 27-year-old when Will & Grace started production. Making him a shallow, slutty, dramatic no-talent actor just fed the same cliché we’d seen from store clerks and bitchy male secretaries in TV and movies. Now he’s almost 50, still talking about how nothing’s more important than youth and sex appeal, and the result is incisive and heart warming. In the 11 years it has been gone, Will & Grace has aged into a show about old queens trying to figure out where they fit in gay culture.

In the second episode of the new season, Will dates a 23-year-old while Jack uses some of Karen’s tricks to hide his wrinkles and paunch. Jack has to figure out how he fits into gay nightlife, a narrative that could be presented as chilling, but through tight writing and Hayes’ physical comedy, becomes safer and a whole lot more fun.

In 1998, when Will & Grace came out, there were barely any gay 50-year-old men, period. A generation of men had been killed by AIDS in the ’80s, and young gay men didn’t have many role models for what our lives should look like after 30. Jack may have been a bundle of clichés in 1998, but now he’s pioneering new territory, and it’s delightfully necessary.

Some gays will say that there are new, cooler, subtler gay identities that Will & Grace doesn’t understand. Those people probably enjoyed the unbearably boring, stuffy and self-conscious Looking on HBO, full of characters who never squealed or dropped a funny one-liner. What these very modern homosexuals fail to understand is that 10 years from now, their homosexuality will be outdated too, and they’ll be struggling to figure out where they fit. It may be easy to dismiss Jack and the rest of the bunch from Will & Grace as anachronisms in a new sexual world. The truth is they’re dinosaurs surviving the crunch, and I’ll drink to that.

It's interesting to see that shift to desperate eldergay for Will and Jack. It's so common for guys who were former hotties or party boys. You'd see tons of them on dating and hook-up sites, all searching for young guys who wouldn't break their hearts, and never giving guys their own age a second look.

R325 I think we'll have to find out how Will and Vince ended it to really get a handle on where Will is emotionally at this point. Did Vince find someone else and dump Will? Or did they just grow apart?

Ugh R324.

[quote]Those people probably enjoyed the unbearably boring, stuffy and self-conscious Looking on HBO, full of characters who never squealed or dropped a funny one-liner.

Yes, because "Looking" tried to be a REAL look at the life of gay men living in a city. Not the life of absurd sitcom characters meant to entertain middle America.

How tacky to trash other gay shows to try to make his point.

Also Murray Bartlett's character on "Looking" was the same arc, a gay party boy who realized he wasn't young anymore trying to figure out his life.

I loved "Looking", but I thought the guy had other interesting ideas about what W&G were really about now, so I posted that article anyway.

Looking was terrible. Shockingly bad. I made it through the first season and the first couple of episodes of the second season and then I couldn't take it anymore. There was no one to like or care about, and they rambled on and on and on about nothing.

Speaking of Looking, would love to have Groff for a guest appearance.

LOL Headlines from the orange press:

Fox News: 'Will & Grace' anti-Trump premiere alienates some viewers

Daily Mail: 'Should be called Will & Disgrace': Viewers slam Will & Grace revival for being too anti-Trump and alienating conservative fans

Thanks r324

[quote] too anti-Trump and alienating conservative fans

Yes, because it should have returned to its conservative roots, and won back all those conservative fans. Why, it seems like yesterday when Pat Robertson and Antonin Scalia were declaring their love for the show. Didn't George Bush ask the cast to join him at a Pride event?

On the discussion of whether W&G was groundbreaking or not: it wasn't grounding breaking for the gays, but might have been for the rest of America in 1998.

And forget 1998, let's review America 2017: Alabama searched high and low for the best-est person in their state to serve as a US senator, and they came up with Judge Roy Moore, one of the most homophobic politicians in America today. This, in 2017.

The commentator from Mic.com reminds us of the gay landscape in1998 when W&G debuted:

[quote] When Will & Grace debuted in 1998, gay sex was still illegal in 19 states, there wasn’t a country where gay people could get married, and depictions of gay men and women in media were limited and reductive. Then Will, Grace, Karen and Jack bounced into America’s living rooms with new constructions of male homosexuality. Gay men were no longer nefarious villains or tragic plague victims. They were the glib, sassy best friends every woman should want. It was still reductive, but it did the job.

R330 just described all Millennials. I would rather fuck a sex doll that looks like Lena Dunham than putrid Millennials.

R330 So Looking captured the pointlessness of modern (gay) life.

Yes, I'm certain young people are all crying themselves a river that they don't get to fuck R336's ancient, prolapsed asshole.

[quote] Did Vince find someone else and dump Will? Or did they just grow apart?

I think Vince's glove fetish must have gotten out of hand

I think a theyshould have agreed to do maybe 6 episodes just to catch up on the characters. I think a second season will be overkill. I would love to see Bobby Cannavale back as Vince. I enjoyed that character.

[quote] Daily Mail: 'Should be called Will & Disgrace': Viewers slam Will & Grace revival for being too anti-Trump and alienating conservative fans

A lot of overreaction. The Cheetos joke was lame being a year past its sell-by date but otherwise the show was more or less in line with the tone of the original series. As noted above they remain limousine liberals. Just as shallow and hypocritical as they always were.

R340 NBC is the one that seems to be trying to lengthen the revival. The show has so much history and the intervening unseen years to mine for material, so it should be fine. Whether ratings will hold up is another matter.

Is there any other new show on NBC this fall that's generating any buzz? Considering how much good TV there is out there, it's completely understandable why they would want to make the most of this return of a well-remembered hit

I wouldn't be surprised if it becomes a trend. Why shouldn't Sharon Gless and Tyne Daly take a big offer for a season or two of "Cagney & Lacey" in which some huge crisis brings them back together to solve a string of murders or prevent a terrorist attack, or whatever.

The mini episode that they did just before the election last year was not so gentle with Trump. It was for online only but the response to it was the beginning of this more lasting reunion. Some brutally funny lines, a fair amount of smugness, get out and vote honey. Did no one outside the coasts see this?

R340 Like anyone gives a flying fuck what you think.

[quote] shouldn't Sharon Gless and Tyne Daly take a big offer for a season or two of "Cagney & Lacey"

A bit late for that. The drama of Cagney or Lacey knocking down a door just can't be the same now.

As much as I would love to see Cagney and Lacey again, Tyne and Sharon are in their 70s so it's completely implausible they would still be on the NYPD.

Agree r340.

I thought it was cool to revive it for another season, but I think a second season is overkill.

Let it come back, stay strong and end on a high note. You don't want to run it into the ground a second time.

R348 I think NBC wants W&G to draw viewers to rest of the NBC's Thursday comedy lineup. As long as W&G performs higher than the rest of the line up, it would be deemed worthy (unless the cast starts demanding big raises).

This single scene has more laughs than the entire eight years of that hideous mess.

While that's a fun little scene, the notion that it had more laughs than W&W is not even remotely true.

R351 Haters got to hate with their hyperbole.

Ow Gramps, that hurt.

I always wondered if the show was a send up of the Julia Roberts-Rupert Everett rapport in My Best Friends Wedding. It premiered the year after that film came out and almost seemed conceived because MBFW was such a big hit and America had embraced the heroine with the "best gay" sidekick.

R343 - So you don't know that there were four Cagney and Lacey movies after the show went off the air?

Ben Platt clip from upcoming episode.

R356 Ben is fatigué, as Jack would say.

Another preview clip

Forgot link

East coast... anyone watching?

Will is going out on a date with the Tony winner (Ben Platt?) Karen's new maid is Bridget (Irish accent) Jack is old (according to a millennial at a club.)

A smooch between Will and the Tony winner.

"You look like a car in need of a Jack." A guy named Lincoln (named after the car.)

Ben is going to be halfway to EGOT when he wins this guest actor Emmy for tonight!

So this week is about the gay generational gap/Grace and Karen in the shower.

I'm shocked they stole The Lucy Show shower scene, and it's not nearly as funny as the original. Which was not all that funny.

I’ve laughed out loud several times tonight.

Well R356, It also didn't look like Lucy and Ethel were about to get it on. Karen is gayer than ever for Grace.

R368 is meant for R366.

Madonna has the baby of Baby June and the body of Iggy Pop.

Will and jack belong together.

Who doesn't like Madonna? Emm.... don't ask that on DL.

R368 Karen and Grace have had latent lesbianism for all these years...

Much better tonight. Still don't get why they're pushing physical comedy on Sean Hayes instead of giving him a constant barrage of funny lines like in the original?

Sean Hayes is pretty brilliant at physical comedy.

R374 What? Physical comedy has always been his shtick ever since the first jazz hands for "Just ____"!

Hilarious episode tonight!

Yes. But also combined with very quotable (even after all these years) funny lines instead of simply tripping around. That said, he had some of the best lines tonight.

Karen: I'm a sperm

The earlier syndicated seasons are airing on Cozi. It's on right now and it's one of the episodes where Debbie Reynolds guest starred as Grace's mom.

R380 Wonder if the show will ever address Grace's mother's passing. Maybe Grace's sisters can come visit and they can reminisce.

[quote]A smooch between Will and the Tony winner.

Yeah, they really are embracing this isn't the 90s anymore. A male/male kiss in both the first two episodes. When this show first started it took til season 3 I believe to get to that point.

It will be interesting to see how they develop "the plight of the Aging Gay" storyline. I hope it's not that Will and Jack finally admit they've been in love the whole time. ugh.

R383 That won't happen... they're practically siblings.

What this episode lacked is Kyle Bornheimer. Preferably shirtless.

Isn't that the Ryan Murphy story r384? He ended up marrying someone who was a longtime platonic gay friend.

But yes, I don't want to see Will and Jack end up together.

I thought it was interesting that Rosario isn't dead or gone, they kept name dropping her. I guess just in case Shelly Morrison changes her mind and feels up for returning to the role.

R389 What did they say about Rosario? I mean after working for Karen for all those years, she should be rich enough to retire anyway.

Rosario can call Karen from El Savaldor or some undisclosed location. Shelly can literally phone it in with her performance, and it would still be funny.

Karen mentioned Stan when she and Grace were trying to figure out the password for the shower. Did they bring him back from the dead?

R272 Surely, love, you don't think the opinions of the average DLer applauding this laugh-free show is indicative of most gay people in the country?? LOL!!!! You're hysterical!!

[quote]What did they say about Rosario?

The new maid character mentioned Rosario sent her, they made it clear the character still worked for Karen.

[quote]Karen mentioned Stan when she and Grace were trying to figure out the password for the shower. Did they bring him back from the dead?

Yes, in the last ep they established Stan is still alive and Karen is still married to him.

Well, one laugh tonight over Stonehenge. Honestly, this is the worse sitcom I've ever seen. Terrible. They should have let this RIP.

Will dating millennial...already done. Grace and Karen trapped in shower, ala the Lucy Show. Jack can attract hunks now, which was the only laughable thing.

R393 Obviously, this show is not for you. Take a hint and turn the channel.

WTF did they bring Stan back from the dead? Talk about beating a dead horse.

R393 = Linn Manuel Miranda, bitter he wasn't asked to guest star.

Will and Grace was down a full point in the demo. Dropped from 3.0 to 2.0.

R397 Kind of expected...The premiere was helped by weeks of media buzz. Now it's back to realistic numbers.

It's okay if it stays around those ratings r398, if it continues to have steep falls they are in trouble.

R399 I don't see it falling to the level of its comedy peers on Thursday. The hope of it elevating the whole Thursday night comedy line-up might be a pipe dream, though. Not with the quality of those other shows, anyway.

The only thing I didn't like was Will getting preachy too early and not getting any... why couldn't he have slept with Blake first and then give him a lecture?! Like show them in bed and Will starts droning on about gay history, and Blake runs off to catch his "Lyft"...

But that is the humor r401, Will cares more about being right than connecting with this guy.

R402 Will being preachy is the least humorous part of the episode. And it was lost on airhead Blake anyway!

Really funny episode. Loved Karen in the shower being all easy in the rising waters enjoying Grace's agony.

R404 Why didn't Grace just climb over the shower wall, there's a big enough gap on top for her to pull herself through and over to the other side? The whole set up is ridiculous, but they mined some laughs out of it with Karen's carefree attitude contrasting with Grace's freak-out. That was also a smooth and clever transition from the staff asking Karen for a raise (with added Rosario namedropping) to Karen asking Grace for a raise. And in retrospect, Grace had a near miss with the safe word when she was telling the "Gross Adler" story! Also, I think there is a double meaning to Grace being Karen's safe word... sure, it means Grace kills the sexy mood, but also Karen feels "safe" with Grace, hence their partnership for all these year.

R395 - Stan's actually being alive was a plot point from before the series ended. He had gone underground or in witness protection or something.

[quote] And it was lost on airhead Blake anyway

You DO realize you're talking about the majority of gay men ages 18-39??

Mary Pat Gleason who played the Irish maid won an Emmy for when she was writing the Guiding Light in the 1980s. I think she was also acting on the soap for a couple of years as Beverly McKinsey's maid.

[quote] Loved Karen in the shower being all easy in the rising waters enjoying Grace's agony.

Exactly. Karen's smooth control in the water reminded me of her owning the disco floor from the flashback telling all those people she couldn't marry them.

I said it early in the thread. It has ALWAYS been the Karen show.

I enjoyed the last episode aired. It's a sitcom, no more no less. I laughed when it was funny (Jack at the club struggling to walk) , I chuckled when it was cute. It was fine. I look forward to the next.

Thats all it needed to be.

Preview scene for this week.

It's okay to watch on TV, but in real life none of us would even glance at them because they're all over 30.

I don't know about that r413

R413 Will is a catch... a rich lawyer!

Debra's lost some weight.

No episode tonight or did my dvr fuck up?

R417 Episode 3 was just on tonight on the east coast. Your DVR fucked up.

The even more commercial breaks and numbers of commercials are turning scenes almost into just sound or joke bites. There’s not as much time anymore between the breaks, it seems, to block really good scenes that lead up well to building up great characters interaction and plot. It’s like watching The Californians skits from SNL! They should just make it an hour show and with all those ads.

Well, well, well....

This is how Jack sees himself. It's such a great Jack episode. Sean should submit this one for the Emmy.

I just wish W&G was on for an hour.

What is Karen dressed for in that get-up?

Definitely not r422. Keep it short and sweet. There is a reason sitcoms are never an hour.

Live +3 rating for week 3 of Will & Grace ties it with The Voice as the 5th most popular non-sports program on broadcast TV.

Is that good or bad? I can't tell anymore.

R426 It's as good as it gets for a 19 year old show! If it can maintain this for the rest of this season, it's can be considered big success for NBC.

bump

bump

Strange they didn't release any sneak peeks for this episode...

Will just called Jared Kushner gay! They seriously have no fucks to give.

Now we know Will's gaydar is still working.

Dixie Dinklage!

Obligatory Jeff Sessions comparison.

Huge spoiler!

Interesing. They actually refilm certain scene...

Yeah, they had a Weinstein joke tonight.

I know they're looking to keep it fresh but I don't like when they separate the Fearsome Foursome for the entire episode. Jack (Sean) is too good for such an inferior plot line and these tertiary, uninteresting characters are garnering too much airtime.

[Quote]ATTENTION: Beverley Leslie is a homosexual!!

He took it back!

R439 HE HOWLS WITH MANLY LAUGHTERS!

That JACKET!

Megan Mulally looks like she has put on some much needed 10 pounds. She looks so much better now than a year ago when she first brought back Karen with the red wig.

Ughh, I always miss it!

More Leslie Jordon... and a peek at next week.

I wish there weren't three identical threads on DL right now.

Benji 2.0

Yep r445, it becomes a mess when people don't try to "police" threads and make sure there aren't duplicates. Trying to have a conversation about this show has been made difficult all season with multiple threads.

Not that he ever had many lines, but I wish they’d gotten back original Benjy.

Jordan is simply brilliant in his role.

I actually think it's really well done. The pilot sucked for me, the last few eps I laughed out loud more than a few times.

The first one was shaky. 2,3,4 were all enjoyable in their own ways. Mostly because of Jack. Sean is really on top of his game. This week's episode was all over the place. Beverley was a hoot, but his plot really was just reintroducing his character to the audience, and not much more. Jack's story was only good because of Sean's physical comedy; otherwise, it was rather dull. I love Jack's fan and "Karen jacket", though. W&G's plot was too squeezed for time. Eli (Max) was lost in the shuffle. There should be a bit more to the date with Will. Actually, this episode could have been stretched to an hour to really do justice to everything going on and Will's big decision to work with Grace.

Episode 6 is the fall finale... remaining 10 next year.

It looks like RoRo dies. ☹️

R452 They wouldn't dare!!

Rosarios has gone missing!

I've enjoyed it so far this season, but I thought this episode was awful. And a waste of Leslie Beverley. They could have been far more creative.

R455 Yes, all they did with Beverley was reintroduced his character as alive and kicking and not much else. And Jack should have been with Karen rather off on a forgettable (except for the Karen Jacket) side plot.

Is this a party or a funeral?

R457 For sure they're killing Rosario off, wah. At least Lorraine Finster has returned!

Aww this makes me sad. She had so many good one-liners for Karen (Count Drunkula etc...). Understand Shelley's acting days are over tho, and they need to write the character out somehow. I'd be happy to see her become some type of Maris or Stan, a character they never show.

why are her acting days over?

She is retired, 80, and her health isn’t great.

Some of it is very funny. But some of the jokes fell really flat.

Jack saying "Will is a fat lawyer!" to his grandson just didn't really work...especially in an otherwise touching moment. Nor did the weird pop culture references in that episode with the annoying Evan Hansen dude. The Designing Women reference wasn't funny either time.

Jack calling Will fat though.....wasn't all that funny then and really doesn't work now.

Doesn't quite show but she's 81 after all (she played on such oldies as Dr Kildare and The Flying Nun), her health probably isn't what it was.

ok the jello thing was hilarious.

Loved Lorraine’s scene at the church.

best episode so far, solidly funny.

Jack Does Thriller!

Goodnight RoRo.

That was a great episode. Probably the best they've done. Everybody was uniformly funny.... nice they cleared up Bobbi's fate.

There’s your episode for Best Comedy right there. Stellar all around.

Of the four of them all four have had work done, right?

R470 is right, episode was close to perfect.

Jesus, I Mary-ed out when Karen pulled Will back in. Crying as I type.

I actually cried during the last scene. It's bittersweet having the show come back. They're all older and have to deal with the loss of parents (and loyal maids.)

RIP Rosie

They really walked a fine line adding just a bit of humor in the right spots, like Karen cleaning the coffin, using the spray bottle of cleaner found in an absurd spot.

For extra sappy points it would be sweet to eventually hear that the cast would have gone to visit Shelley to watch the episode all together.

I wish they hadn't slipped in the bit about Bobbi. It should have been its own episode. With an In Memory Of card included.

[quote] They really walked a fine line adding just a bit of humor in the right spots, like Karen cleaning the coffin, using the spray bottle of cleaner found in an absurd spot.

My Dad was an avid golfer. When he died, they put his favorite putter in the coffin with him. When Rosie died, they buried her with a bottle of Fantastik!

R477 I know, I remember that bit and never registered what they did there - to me the messaging was just Grace being all about herself again.

I thought everyone was perfect...except Messing. Grace is unlikeable and unsympathetic in every way this season.

I disagree, R480. To me, Grace now has a Lucille Ball quality to her (whether it's intentional or not), and I find it comforting. I grew up on I Love Lucy, so I do like her this season.

One thing I've noticed - and you might all think I'm crazy - is that everyone's voices seem a bit deeper now. In previous seasons, I'd swear that production bumped up the pitch on everyone's voices compared to their off-camera voices, and this season they all seem deeper.

Does anyone know if Bobby Cannavale is coming back?

[quote] One thing I've noticed - and you might all think I'm crazy - is that everyone's voices seem a bit deeper now.

Age does that.

R481 Bobby is coming back. I thought he has already filmed something but he did not show up in any of the last three episodes. So maybe in the "holiday special" that they will air in December.

Sitcoms aren't supposed to make me cry. Mullally has improved,and she was always the best thing on this show.

Again I ask, have all four had work done?

I admit I cried twice. Scene with Will and then Karen's monologue.

But I have to ask why are they making such a big fucking deal about Bobbi Adler/Debbie Reynolds. She was in what, 5 episodes? The picture in the apartment is a nice touch, the "my mom died" scene in last nights episode was painfully bad and annoying but okay incase we didn't get it Bobbi's dead. But I read an article that the creators will address it again in an episode! It's enough. Stop. I noticed in the last scene they subtely addressed that Lois Whitley/Suzanne Pleshette/Karen's mom was dead by saying it was her ring. I will not sit through a full episode about dead Debbi and endure more of Debra Messing yelling and screeching like a 14 year old.

R486 has stated her choreography!

There was a bit of a drop in the ratings but still good.

R486 Grace was over the top but Karen was there to slap her down every step of the way... that's funny. And I bet they will get at least one of the Adler sisters to come spar with Grace for the Mommy Adler episode.

They've subtely alluded to Karen's mom in the past tense twice now. Last night and episode 3. I thought Debra's bar scene did a disservice to Grace's character and Bobbi. Just poorly written, didn't fit with the tone of the episode and made Grace seem like a jerk and not a loveable one. To dedicate another episode to Bobbi's passing now would seem silly and like they're just trying to beat us over the head. I would love if they brought back Jack's mom for the Christmas show. Would love to see her show up doing a dry run with her casserole again. Maybe make it a turkey and do a a joke about birds to tie in with Veronica Cartrights role in The Birds.

Now that they've established that Bobbi Adler is dead and buried they can't really do a memorial episode. Not sure how they would work her in but these episodes are so packed it would only be a scene or two anyway. I'd prefer to see Lainie Kazan as her aunt again. Maybe now that Bobbi's dead Lainie shows up on Mother's Day.

R490 Bobbi's character was every bit as "me me me" as Grace, but Bobbi had more finesse inserting herself into the conversation than Grace, though. The writing for that scene was purely for the joke effect and contrast with angry/sad Karen.

The boob play after 'I breastfed myself!' was a funny bit of improv.

R492 It was the weak point of the episode for me too. Just a tad too much and went on too long.

R490 Suzanne was very close to the straight show creator. I don't know which one is which. She even dated his father back in the day so I picked up on the references to her character and it doesn't surprise me that they keep slipping them in.

I hope we get at least one guest star free episode this season. Have the old gang back together. I'm enjoying the nostalgia of the new episodes but there's so much happening and so many storylines in each episode. At least all 4 were in the one plot in this one.

David Kohan. The whole family is in the biz. His sister created Weeds.

While they were both all about the "me, me, me", Bobbi acted like the whole world adored her and revolved around her, without any doubt. Grace acts like she desperately wants the whole world to adore and revolve around her. (Delusionally) confident vs needy. Big difference.

As earlier poster wrote, yeah it was strange that last night’s opening felt as if it were already a rerun that had part of the first scene edited out or compressed. They’ll ruin the reboot if they keep doing that. The characters’ dialogue needs more buildup time is scenes to have best effect. Also is anyone else getting a vibe that Eric isn’t projecting the same gelling with the rest of the foursome? I sense something “off” about his delivery, attention to, or interaction with the other three in their scenes.

Seems like Jack & Karen are getting more scenes airtime and focus separately, meanwhile. Maybe they’re preparing viewers in case the other two don’t decide to continue with the current show after the second season, and its revamped to focus on K and J with occasional appearances by the other two?

Another analogy between this reboot and the “return of Lucy in ‘62 on CBS,” so to speak: the commercial work-in (brilliant, btw) of the Jack and K-voice Honda af at show’s end—which Desilu did so regularly with ILL and TLS in the 1950s and ‘60s on with ads for autos, plus Westinghouse and other sponsors.

At least they get it about this reboot’s airtime somewhat—notice how since episode 2, they give the show’s runtime a minute longer cutting into that of the following show..

If you looked closely at the credits for the season finale on Thursday, then you saw that the character of Jack's new airline steward boyfriend was created and conceived by Mel Gibson and Hitler.

I hated Jack’s foreign boyfriend. So annoying.

Finally caught up for the season finale next week. As a diehard W&G fan, my honest opinion of the season was:

1. Very strong first half. Seriously, some of the episodes were funnier than the original run.

2. Okay middle pack of the season. I hate when they start stuffing in continuity storylines, which was its biggest con from seasons 5-8.

3. I didn't like the past 3 episodes and probably won't like the season finale. But that's okay because none of the seasons have been perfect. I still just love the chemistry and, as corny as the gags can be, it still makes me smile.

It's nice to see that the cast, once realizing NBC was giving them more seasons, started acting again and not playing it up for nostalgia's sake. I'm gonna be honest, I think Debra has been the anchor this season. I've loved every scene she's been in.

So glad Megan got nominated for an Emmy again. It was obvious during the original run (especially during the live episodes ) and even more so now that she is far superior at acting than the other three over-actors..

R501 The other three are not over-actors, inadequate no longer funny actors more like.