Tired of the Masculine Worship in the Gay Community, Part 2

Part 1

Hot OP pic

I think both sides need to be more respectful and humane toward the other

[quote]I think both sides

I think people need to realize that there aren't any "sides".

Huh?

Society thinks power and dominance are attractive in men. It's not gonna change

I had so hoped this thread had died.

600 posts all saying the same 5 things.

1. "I am a masc guy and I am only sexually attracted to other masc guys. That's just who I am."

2. "I am a masc guy and I like both masc and femme guys." (okay, very few of those)

3. "I am a femme guy and I have no problem getting laid by masc guys."

4. "I am a femme guy and I never get laid because guys only want 'masc' and that's not me."

5. "I am a frau and I am offering an opinion no one wants to hear because it's the internet and I can."

alrighty man

I like manly men, masculine guys make me hot. Sorry. If someone doesn't feel the same way fine with me. Just my opinion. Guy on op's pic is hot.

Thank you, R9, for so artfully advancing the discussion.

It's the reason some seek masculine men. They like being associated with and attracted a masculine guy because it makes them feel secure, more desired.

People also want to be associated with what's popular or on top. It's tribal

Which is why a lot of guys do not want to be seen in public with fem guys. Fear the stigma will rub off

I look forward to you repeating the same things dozens of times until this thread reaches 600 posts.

THERE'S NOTHING WRONG WITH EITHER MASCULINE OR FEMININE AND WHAT CONSTITUTES EITHER IS JUST A BULLSHIT OPINION.

I remember in the 80's all the gays on Montague St. in Brooklyn were all body builders and they were all only with other body builders. I don't ever remember seeing any of them with anyone that was femme. Strange I never realized that until now.

Bodybuilding can't transform a fem guy into masculine. Rapper TI is skinny as a bean pole, but he is umtramasculine.

Any nudes of John Hirka yet?

Who's dat?

The chiseled muscle stud in OP's GIF.

I know lots of muscular men who have purses falling out the minute they start speaking

He looks masculine hot and delicious. This thread needs pics of men.

[quote]Rapper TI is skinny as a bean pole

Well he's filled out nicely

I want the man in OP's posting in me, quite deeply.

Actually, in WEHO the muscle bound guys are often times way more feminine and far less masculine than those who are less into bodybuilding.

Pics of the filled out TI?

As the conversation was developing in the previous thread. Some are making wrong accusations of misogyny. Misogyny is the hatred of women because they are women and not men. It doesn't matter if a woman is masculine or feminine. A misogynist holds negative views of women because of her nature, her biology as a woman.

Effeminate gay men are not women so misogyny doesn't apply here. Not being attracted to effeminacy doesn't mean hatred of effeminate men. Some may be hostile to them for being effeminate, but labeling the lack of attraction to effeminacy as hatred is very poor logic and probably the need to play the victim card way too much. In any case, the hatred of or aversion to effeminacy has its own name, it is called effemiphobia, but you can't accuse everybody who is not attracted to effeminacy to be an effemiphobe because in most ccases there is no hatred of effeminacy but simply lack of attraction to it.

Just because a gay man is not attracted to women doesn't mean he hates women. You need to understand the difference between hatred and lack of attraction. They are not the same thing.

That's why they say, "look like Tarzan, sounds like Jane." A fem voice or mannerisms override a muscular body

Would you be friends with a fem guy and hang out in public? I have to admit that I have a fem friend, who can be a lot of fun, but I prefer to hang out at his place or my place and not go out because I'm afraid he will embarrass me or other people will think I'm fem.

Hell's Kitchen is a remarkably small group and word spreads quickly. I know it's awful of me, but I prefer the company of masc guys in public.

You just made that up R29

I notice the effeminate male intern in our office goes to lunch with the females, never with the gang of guys, which includes a masculine bi dude.

And you R31?

Who do you lunch with?

With other attorneys

For those lusting over that pic in OP:

Dude, you are so clever.

And these lawyers, are they male or female?

Probably not because he doesn't want to but because the other men ostracise him... R31

A mix. We mainly segregate based on age. Maybe he's ostracized, but if so, it's probably subtle. Moreso, I bet he thinks he has more in common to talk about with females.

So then who are in your law firm's "gang of guys" -- paralegals?

I think the original OP was pointing out how gays have recently picked up masculine dress, attitudes and lifestyle that is more associated with hetero guys. I know I am probably stepping out on a limb, but gays used to have more of our own individual culture and attitude that was unique to us and not necessarily feminine or masculine.

I would say young guys in the last five- ten years are so focused on emulating straight guys that our own gay culture is fading out slowly. We already have seen it with gay bars, gay websites, and gay media shrinking smaller and smaller. I guess after some time we will just be integrated into straight culture and will court each other like heteros do. Maybe that's what most people want.

R39, you mean a certain type of "gay." Today, more masculine guys identity as bi or gay who would have been closeted or celibate for life in the past. They are Naturally more masc and integrated into mainstream society. They don't want a distinctive subculture or identity. They just wanna be regular bros who happen to like dudes. Nothing wrong with that

Masculinity is not a heterosexual monopoly nor even their invention. What you are describing is a subcultural ghetto that was shaped by a specific subset of gay men which has gained mainstream attention because people who deviate form the norm obviously stand out over the rest and, since the rest of gay men don't stand out confirmation bias takes place and gay men are classified as an entire group of people who is not masculine. R39

Exactly. In the past, even now, a lot of bi and gay guys did not identity as such because they didn't have an internet or affinity for stereotypical gay culture. Now, they see many gay and bi guys who defy and live apart from the stereotypes and subculture

And what a lot of this post (and similar) are about is the rebellion against the notion that there's only one way to be gay, that if you're not a Judy Garland worshiping club queen, you're somehow denying your real self.

One man's masc is another guy's femme.

Let's post pictures to see if we agree.

Masc or femme?

Photos are worth nothing R44

As mentioned above, a whole lot of "looks like Tarzan, sounds like Jane"

I remember the first time a guy like that asked me to spot him in the gym. I thought a ventriloquist was supplying the voice.

R45 has a very deep, Manchester accent but might say gay stuff from time to time.

We are just like anybody else. We are as diverse and complex as any other type of peolpe can be. The thing is that the only thing that stands out about gay men is effeminacy and gay subculture, and people form their conception of gay men based on that stand out.

Likewise, if you pay attention to heterosexual men you will see that many of them are not sterotypically masculine.

Bingo R48!!

DLers have a really tough time wrapping their heads around the fact that the nerds on shows like "Silicon Valley" and "Big Bang Theory" are all straight (okay, maybe not Raj...) and yet have zero interest in sports or working out.

I think some of them are so far removed from anyone other than femme gay men and women that they create these false stereotypes of straight men as all being macho beer drinking dudebros

Yeah why do people here focus on looks so much on this topic? It's usually about vibe, mannerisms, interests, hobbies, walk.

Hmmm

How many effeminate gay men lust after other effeminate gay men?

Not many

[quote]We are as diverse and complex as any other type of peolpe can be.

Well from reading this thread series you could not tell. Most gay men want masculine men in their bed at the end of day, and you all have said as much so let's not deny it. And more gay men who are not by nature masculine, are trying to become that ideal masculine man that is so sought after, at least in appearance.

Staying away From gay culture is a good way to maintain masculinity

not another stupid thread on this tired subject

Masculinity is not one rigid fixed set of attributes. Masculinity is a spectrum. If your idea of masculinity is something like being Rambo, all muscle, physical strength, having guns and speaking in an overly exaggerated manly way then that is a very reductive idea of masculinity. One that most men don't follow and one that is more of an act than actual masculinity. That's called hypermasculinity which is more of an exaggeration and caricature of masculinity.

A so-called average nerd, to give a example, is masculine, just not in a stereotypical way. When guys say they are attracted to masculinity they are not necessarily looking for an exaggerated idea of masculinity but rather something balanced, relaxed that when you see it you read it as masculine that doesn't resort stereotypes promoted by Hollywood R54

Yeah we know that already

Yes, we know that masculinity is not defined by one single caricature or set of behaviors. Right now lets focus on the "mascbro" look that most of the gays are worshiping, Exhibit A:

But this guy would get thrown back

Yeah that is true

.....

Cazwell is so stereotypical.

Society forces gender roles on kids as soon as we are born into the world. As soon as you begin to walk kids are being taught how to act in order to attract the other sex. When you are a gay kid and in your child's mind you realise you have no desire for girls you see no reason to behave like the other boys because you don't want to attract girls; you want to attract boys or that they always notice you first at least. Obviously some gay kids will make the equation according to what parents and society teach them, that is, the key to attract men is being feminine. That realisation has an influence on how you will begin to fantasise and express your desires for men.

Uh no

I'm a masculine top who likes a nice mix of masculinity and femininity in men.

[quote]Obviously some gay kids will make the equation according to what parents and society teach them, that is, the key to attract men is being feminine.

Gee, where do you think they'd have learned that?

[quote]Masculinity is not one rigid fixed set of attributes. Masculinity is a spectrum. If your idea of masculinity is something like being Rambo, all muscle, physical strength, having guns and speaking in an overly exaggerated manly way then that is a very reductive idea of masculinity. One that most men don't follow and one that is more of an act than actual masculinity. That's called hypermasculinity which is more of an exaggeration and caricature of masculinity.

Agreed. The VIllage People were just as much a drag act as Divine was. They even tried to fem themselves out in one of their post-[italic]Can't Stop the Music[/italic] albums, but it didn't take. Clothes are just clothes; they don't override biology.

But R64 you make the assumption that most gay guys know they're gay or different as kids.

This is only true for a smaller percentage, the ones who everyone knows are gay when they're in kindergarten.

The rest of us don't figure it out till puberty.

(And I still think that one day we'll figure out why that is, whether it's nature or nurture, but there's a difference between the two groups.)

The "drinkie-poo" poster?

No masc

No matter how big is muscles or how many A&F football jerseys and backwards baseball caps he wears

What makes you realise you are different is your attraction to men when society strongly promotes heterosexual attraction. No one's behaviour is already determined when you are child. Behaviour is not a fixed trait but something that can vary through time. Kids don't have the mental maturity to analyse attractions and behaviours like an adult can do, but they are still intelligent enough to get a grasp of the world around them. Why do you think little girls start imitating their mother putting makeup on or wearing their high heels and dresses? They are imitating their role model, they are acquiring the behaviours and tactics that will get them men. R69

Hcds

I love Alphas

This thread

JOhn Hirka is so hot

Masculine men do not work out obsessively and pose in front of cameras for attention. Looking for validation about the way you look to that degree is not masculine, whether the man is gay or straight.

Masculine men are comfortable with themselves. I like Scruffy, pudgy, hairy, everyday men like the painters, construction workers, electricians, valets, that you see all over. That is sexy as fuck to me, not an elite athlete or model.

R76, you just beamed in from 1971, dude?

IMO it's not wrong to have preferences, and people trying to attack those for having them I don't agree with. There's a difference between that and intentionally closing yourself off.

It's amazing how young kids pick up on gender identity differences. I have seen kindergarteners pick on a boy for acting like a girl, and usually, that boy will grow up effeminate

Confidence is outside the spehere of masculinityand femininity. They donpt describe them at all. Masculine men and feminine women; masculine women and feminine men they all can look for validation from others. That doesn't affect what their behaviour can be classified as R76

Masculinity, apart from certain bodily processes is basically behaviours and mannerisms typically associated with men.

True, Alpha males tend to be some Of the most insecure people, which leads to their aggression. See Donald Trump....

Effeminacy has never been sexually and romantically arousing for gay men as a whole class of people, otherwise, there would be a strong preference for effeminacy and we would not be having this conversation. This doesn't mean that being effeminate means you will never get men, but it certainly it is appealing for a small fraction.

Something I find interesting and a but hypocritical is that whenever I watch self-righteous gay men scolding other gays for liking masculinity they themselves are coupled with a masculine gay man and both look masculine.

Yeah

I imagine the people who bitch and moan about there being a bias against effeminacy here are the same ones who are dismissive when people of color complain that they feel slighted in our “community.”

What is it you say….”Relax, it’s just a preference” or “You’re just mad because nobody wants to fuck you.”

Oh, well……...

Yeah

Hmmmm

Skin colour has nothing to do with sexual orientation; it has no sexual connotation. I don't understand why some come up with that argument when only gender expression belongs in the terrain of sexuality.

Skin color?

This reminded me, in Kabuki theater when women were banned from acting they were first replaced by young men to play the female roles, but just like some actresses were doing some of the young males also began to prostitute themselves to men because if their feminine beauty and ability to embody a woman. Of course, they were not prostituting themselves to homosexual men but to heterosexual men obviousy attracted to the fantasy of a woman that they were able to embody.

Those were probably essentially trans women underwear undiagnosed

Trans women undiagnosed

Butch lesbians seem to have an easier time of it and are more accepted and considered more sexually desirable than femme gay men.

Discuss.

Well, men in general have very narrow social permission of what it means to be manly and masculine. Masculinity and manliness are considered the ideal, the pinnacle, but it's also elite and must be protected from femininity. Masculinity is largely defined by its opposition and contrast to Women and femininity. Women who are masculine are considered naturally desiring to upgrade their status, whereas men who are effeminate are viewed as irrational and provactive, trading superior masculinity for inferior femininity. Effeminate men are viewed as Repulsive provocateurs.

I don't think so. The phenomenon still occurs with drag queens. While they identify as males (gay males) many drag queens-if not most of them-are willing to trade in order to have sex with heterosexual men who fetishised the overdone feminine appearance while they themselves (drag queens) fetishise heterosexual men as sex partners.

Drag is not simply an act; it has a lot to do with fetishism and personal sex desires.

I forgot. R90

I doubt that r94

I don't. There was actually an artice I read like 2 years ago where a drag queen answers the question "who drag queens sleep with?". I can't find the article anymore though. R96

The trans murder rate is partly so high because straight-identified men involved with them Don't want to be revealed to Be involved with transgender women

I don't know what the case is for lesbians in general, but I think it may be an overstatement the idea that lesbians like masculine women. Most of the lesbian couples I have met and seen seem to be average feminine.

In the case of gay men, the lack of attraction to femininity/effeminacy has nothing to do with how society sees masculinity and femininity. It is simply one's sexual orientation not responding to behaviour that evokes a woman, the same way when you see a woman's breast and you don't feel aroused by or interested in it.

Heterosexual men regard femininity as inferior to masculinity but they love feminine women. See?

In fact, numerous studies have repeatedly shown that gay men who place personal advertisements tend to stress exhibiting masculine interests and behaviors, and they tend to seek masculine mates (Bailey, Kim, Hills, Linsenmeier, 1997; Laner & Kamel, 1977; Lumby, 1978; Phua, 2002; Taywaditep, 2001). For instance, in a study of 2,729 gay men’s personal advertisements, Bailey et al. (1997) found that gay men who chose to use gender specific self-descriptors were significantly biased towards stereotypically masculine traits (e.g., dominant, muscular, and athletic) and labels (e.g., “a masculine man,” “straight-acting,” and “jock”). Furthermore, most advertisers explicitly requested masculine mates and they expressed that stereotypically feminine traits were undesirable in a potential mate.

Online sexual hook-ups present a unique opportunity to explore many factors of decision-making that inform sexual health. A study conducted by Eric Schrimshaw, PhD, at Columbia University’s Mailman School of Public Health and Martin J. Downing, Jr., PhD, of the National Development and Research Institutes, found evidence that men having sex with men use the Internet to find sexual partners who do not identify as gay, either to fulfill a fantasy or because it allows anonymous sexual encounters without discovery. The findings are online in the first issue of the journal Psychology of Sexual Orientation and Gender Diversity, published by the American Psychological Association.

I could have told them that without wasting all that money for the study R101

LOL, easiest way to get laid is to say you're bi and your GF is "out of town"

Even easier is to say you're straight for straight

This shows that the many centuries of forced repression and hiding has made homosexuality even a mystery for ourselves.

It shouldn't be a susprise gay men are naturally attracted to masculine demeanor, but we have been denied our nature for so long that we never grew up having a mentor or role model that could teach us about our own attractions and interactions with other men. We had to take the closest example at hand: women.

I think most fem guys are innately fem and exhibit effeminate traits very early. However, these traits segregate them from their male peers, which only increases their effeminancy and nonmasculine tendenciesc

I love hot straight masculine guys.

As do all of you.

Only buff ones

The never-ending battle to remove masculinity from gay men.

R105 nails it..

Is he really this way in real life?

I don't think this kid of exaggerated behaviour does any good to effeminate men; it only presents effeminacy in an in-your-face attitude; it dehumanises it if you will.

Agree with R109-- R105 does indeed nail it.

[quote]However, these traits segregate them from their male peers, which only increases their effeminancy and non masculine tendencies

They then hang out mostly with girls and pick up their traits.

I'm gay, I'm attracted to men, not women.

So obviously I'm not going to be attracted to men who act like women.

But the whole point is worshiping masculinity. If gays were worshiping femininity , they would be straight.

OP got to sleep.

it's all about dick length and girth

The masculine Gary Taylor look is what every gay man is attracted to.

Nothing Compares 2 Gary Taylor.

"Worship" is an exaggeration and it stems from the frustration that men don't show sexual/romantic interest in men who lack masculine demeanor.

The gay scene exalts effeminacy as a treasure of its identity yet it ridicules it in bed. The very men who like to walk around like a diva pop singer look away and discard the same type of men as possible sex partners.

[quote]The gay scene exalts effeminacy as a treasure of its identity yet it ridicules it in bed. The very men who like to walk around like a diva pop singer look away and discard the same type of men as possible sex partners.

True. The femmes should stick with the femmes.

Check out the ever-present masculinity:

No. What I meant is that it is not only msculine gay men lookiNg for masculine men; it's also effeminate gay men looking for masculine men. R118

Sometimes the most masc LOOKING guys are quite queeny. Like the ones who, when they open their mouth, not only does a purse fall out, but the entire factory in China that manufactures purses for 100's of designer labels falls out along with the first word. And you KNOW what I'm talking about so don't pretend.

That HuffPo article at R108 was beyond tedious. Another piece boiling down to I'm fem and masc guys won't sleep with me. Discrimination!

Not only does a purse fall out, but also the false wall in all of the purse stores in Manhattan's China Town, with knockoff designer purses cascading out!

Masc like Gary Taylor only!

We've been over this R121

A femme guy who bulks up and buys some "jock looking" clothes from Abercrombie is still a femme guy.

"Masculinity" is all about personality, not about looks.

Well different people obvi have diff definitions then, R124. Don't hate just because someone thinks differently than you.

CLothes can enhance masculinity, but personality, mannerisms, interests, speech, mannerisms, and overall vibe are much more definitive in overall masculinity.

Also, manner of walking and word usage

The porn star Tom Katt was a great example of this. He was VERY masculine LOOKING, but incredibly effeminate in every other way. Seeing him in pics was one thing; watching him perform was totally another...

I feel uncomfortable around hyper masculine men, men who try to be a stereotype of masculinity. But I like a man who is average masculine, a man who looks balanced in his masculinity and doesn't try to be a WWE wrestler.

Did this conflict exist in the 80's, 70's or 60's or where effeminate gay men more successful with other gay men?

I am only attracted to traditionally masculine dudes. No disrespect to guys who are fem.

It woould be interesting to read the arguments from those who think that, for example, attraction to masculinity is influenced or conditioned by society.

If anything society forces us to be attracted to women when we like men.

But society says femininity is only attractive, normal, healthy, desired, and moral in females, never in males

Do you think this may have to do with most fem guys are assumed to be pure bottoms. Masculine bottoms & femme bottoms create an imbalance with both competing for masculine tops-hence the conflict?

I like guys who are in the middle. I don't like extremes.

I don't think masculine bottoms and feminine bottoms are competing for tops like two opposing factions. I would say though, based on what I have read in different forums that most feminine gay guys who usually happen to be bottoms have deeply incorporated in their thought process the heterosexual dynamic of attraction, that is, a masculine must have a feminine counterpart. Kind of they have the stereotypical heterosexual couple in mind.

[quote]I don't think masculine bottoms and feminine bottoms are competing for tops like two opposing factions.

Chile please. This entire thread series is just masculine and feminine bottoms going back and forth, tit for tat!

Hmmmm

Gay culture glorifies the male effeminancy that most find unattractive

I think if the gay community was more open minded and accepting of femme guys then we'd have fewer confused gay boys wanting to transition. I'm sure some gay boys don't feel like they fit in anywhere, not in the straight world and not in the gay, for them it's just easier to transition to fit in.

The gay community is very accepting of fem guys. It's the rest of the world that is not

I find nothing hotter than a stereotypically masculine guy who is a/or will,bottom.Where does that put me on the scale?.Stereotypes have some truth to them,but they are sooooo boring and limiting.Who the fuck is to say what is masculine or feminine for all time and for everyone?It's 2017,not 1955.I have been labelled as effeminate by some and masculine by others depending on their own psychology and life experiences.I don't like labelling myself.I fit some of the "gay" stereotypes and not others.First and foremost I'm a human being with all the complexity that that entails.Arnold Schwarzenegger body with a lisp and a propensity for Julia Roberts movies?Have at 'er!Richard Simmons type with a will of iron and tough leadership skills?He's your man!John Wayne type who secretly wears lacy women's underwear?He's out there and someone finds that really,really hot.Brent Corrigan twink type who will only top?Party on!Drag Queens who only do oral? On and on.There's someone out there for everyone.

Uh okay

What is a gay community in the first place?

You might be using homogeneizing terminology as if gays wher one single mass of people all with the same values, ideas, opinions, etc.

And, are you really surprised gay men like masculinity more? WHy are you surprised? In the end, you have complete control over your behaviours and mannerism, but you don't have control over your feelings and attractions.

Fem guys make me feel uncomfortable to be honest.

I'm not, except for the flamboyant ones. They usually are too much "in your face". Whether you are masculine or feminine, invasive behaviour makes people uncomfortable.

I am okay with nice effeminate guys that don't try to project their effeminancy on other guys, but so many fem guys think it's okay to try to feminize regular guys, whether by calling them the wrong gender pronouns or by insinuating other men are not manly. It makes them insufferable for most guys to be around.

Yesteday I read an article on Patheos about the causes for gender dysphoria. Athough it is more of a personal view on the causes led by testimonies and personal observation the writer collected the writer explained tht rigid gender roles can have an effect on how person may see him/herself and feel the need totransition. This of course is an extreme and many of those people detansitioned, but it shows that sometimes gender roles can have an impact in the way we behave or we see ourselves or how we try to align feelings with gender roles.

I unapologetically love masculine dudes.

Trespass

I guess when some fem gays refer to their genitals as female genitalia is a fetishistic reference. Not that they want a vagina, but they fantasise with an idea of how much women enjoy sex with men and they want that too...

r151 a lot of fem guys do that because their tops love it

A different question is, what is the fascination some gay men have, usually effeminate gays, with dressing like women and behaving like women?

Usually the "performance" is a hyper sexualized idea of femininity, usually seductive and sex-centered.

Can we really discard the possibility that there is some sort of fetish with embodying a woman and femininity? Not that they want to be women but rather the female role is fetishized in a stereotypical way, you know, the delicate woman and the wild and sexual man as the archetypes in movies.

Can we really discard a fetish with behaving so feminine/effeminate?

Hmmmm

People cling to either side like it's binary thing. I guess they find comfort in identity politics... The majority of people (let's discount those that purposefully try and act one way or another be that leather-bound, muscle drag queens or professional homosexualists) naturally have both qualities and that's a good, healthy thing.

[quote]People cling to either side like it's binary thing.

People are what they are.

[quote]The majority of people ...(....)....naturally have both qualities and that's a good, healthy thing.

In varying proportions.

I'm gay. I like men. I'll take those with an abundance of masculinity.

Sexually I don't care for women. That's why I don't care for men who are like them.

Okay

The topic arises in this video.

R157 I hope you watched the video posted at R158.

Hmmmm

What is the prevalence that effeminate gay men lust afte and date other effeminate gay men?

Small

That's what this is all about.

The gay men making those YouTube rants are the ones who are continually rejected by the masculine men they lust after.

Rather than setting their sights a little lower, they want to convince the rest of us that we're somehow wrong to prefer masculine men.

They're dying of jealousy and torn up over being rejected:

[quote]What is wrong with so many gays? Why are they so hooked on masculinity in a guy? We shouldn't worship masculinity. Instead, we should be accepting and appreciative of all men, whether masculine or feminine.

True

Noooo

Yeah, that's is basically the real thing going on. They don't really hate masculinity; they like it and lust after it like most gay men, but because they fail to attract the masculine gay man then they don't want anybody else to get one either. It's resentment and jealousy at the same time: If I can't have one then no one else should have one either".

It hurts to be rejected, but rejection doesn't mean hatred or despise. It's simply means that you cannot everybody's cake just like not everybody is your cake either.

Without masculinity, I would not be attracted to dudes .

R167 True.

Masculinity doesn't attract men, that from a heteronormative way of thinking.

Huh'?

Masculine gay men also get rejected. Just because some of them are mascuine doesn't mean they are everybody is attracted to them. You can't be everybody's type. Not even masculine gay men.

I love dudes that are distinct from females and effemnancy. I like lumbersexuals, Alphas, heroic dudes.

We get it r172. some of us like guys who have both male and female characteristics and features

Nonbinary.

Masculinity absolutely does attract men. You might still be masculine and get rejected, but if you're fem you don't stand a chance.

But look at it considering the world we live in.

In this world where homosexuality has been supressed for centuries or even more than a millenia we have only had heterosexuality and the gender roles expected for them. We all grew up seeing that when women are interested in me they do things like emphasising that feminine coquetry and seduction. It's logical then that most gay men (bottoms mainly I would say) will also internalise this thought that femininity is the way if you like men or that through femininity/effeminacy you inform men what your role is...

I think that from a very little age everybody start absorbing certain patterns regarding gender roles, etc. Obviously, from the perspective of a child. Children can manifest attraction at a very young age and they can also potentially start contrasting themselves with the world outside.

[quote]We get it [R172]. some of us like guys who have both male and female characteristics and features

Yes, some of you might be attracted to men with both male and female characteristics and features.

But you're a tiny minority.

HMMMmm

Has anybody ever wondered why some gays feel the need to dress like women, usually leaning towards drag when in theory they are not attracted to women yet they show the impulse to express themselves like women?...

Some gay men are very effeminate. Just the facts.

Effeminacy doesn't necessarily lead to crossdressing. But there may be many reasons why some have that sort of impusle for crossdressing and that sort of hyper-feminised and hypersexualised presentation...

For example?

Too many reasons.

Can we call this psychosexual development? For example, a little gay boy who realises he likes men just like is mother, sister and other women. He may feel identified with them. In order to attract women he would have to embrace masculinity like the father and brother but since he is not attracted to girls/women he doesn't identify with those manners as he sees in most men. As he grows up he projects his attractions and desires on things commonly associated with women such as mannerisms, clothing, makeup, etc.

Have you noticed that many tend to say "every gay has a queen inside"? That statement may be their projection of their psychosexual development.

I don't believe gender expresion is already decided in the womb. I think most of our gender expression is learnt and can vary through time and many factors can have an influence on it.

I don’t buy the act like women to attract dude theory. Sorry

Not a popular opinion on DL as so many on here fit the description, but I do think that most very femme guys would have been much happier as women and should have been transed before puberty. They just exist in a netherworld and can either be sexless or sub bottoms to some guy(s) who just want a mouth and ass to get off in. Plus as transwomen they'd be able to avoid all the teasing, bullying and funny looks they get.

More than 80% of people who transition detransition sooner or later because they don't really feel like a woman (mtf in this case). Some have transitioned to align their sexual orientation or mannerisms with what society usually says (liking men is a woman's thing), but later they don't that transition anymore so transitioning is not the way to happiness.

Look at gay transvestites. They are comfortable being men, but they use femininity to satisfy their lust after men. Femininity becomes likable because it gets them the men they could not get if they looked like men.

[quote] More than 80% of people who transition detransition sooner or later

Can you provide a link for that R186?

Because Google sure as fuck can't.

Most transvestites are heterosexual or Masculine. They Are not trying to attract men.

There is a documentary aired a few months ago by the BBC about transgender, gender dysphoria and detransition. It was mainly focused on kids. An expert was fired because he doesn't agree with kids transitioning to the point it may be irreversible because more than 80% stop suffering form gender dysphoria at one point in time while many transactivists avocate kids transitioning with all that entails.

Effeminacy should not be equated with transgender. Effeminacy is simply a man having more feminine mannerisms. many heterosexual men are effeminate too. And there are different degrees too just like there are different degrees of masculine behaviour.

Hmmmm

Hmmmm

Why do non-masculine guys complain about masc4masc guys only seeking masculine guys? It’s not like complaining about their dating preference will make them attracted to fem dudes.

People always read what your personality tells them. I'm afraid that apart from a personality evocative of women many feel there is some kind of imbalance when a guy is too effeminate. You know, the attention-seeking, the ghetto black woman vocabulary, etc. People may read you as inauthentic and having some psychological issues...

So it's a bullshit stat from a quack that you pulled out of your ass because you don't want them to cut your dick off.

Got it R190.

There's that too R194

There's a line when a guy goes from a regular guy with some feminine mannerisms to Full On Freak. And a lot of gay guys seem to embrace the Full On Freak, which, as you correctly note, seems completely inauthentic and TTH

Hmmmm

If you personality looks fake as if you were playing a character or if you show a considerable level of immaturity or if people can read some psychologucal issues through your personality, of course, people will be turned off.

I'm afraid the people who complain are usually found in some of the categories above. You just have to go to Youtube, find videos on the topic and you will see it is always guys overly dramatic, impulsive, lots of hand genstures, etc.

Fetishization of womanhood for its perceived potential to attract men.

Uh no

Hilarity hath ensued. One of the biggest anti-femmes on this thread ("The femmes should stick with the femmes") thinks the Corelle dish thread is "the best thread ever." He describes some of the dishes he owns and/or likes as "old lady-ish but in a chic way. Others are classic and timeless."

Is there really a way to say "classic and timeless" that doesn't make you sound like an entire "classic and timeless" service for 12 just fell out of your mouth and exploded on the kitchen floor?

"The femmes should stick with the femmes" is anti-masc.

Like others have said, more than a femininity itself flamboyance is what turns guys off and flamboyance or campiness are usually a caricature of femininity. Some say that they are being themselves, but I would argue flamboyance or campiness are actually a mask or the exteriorization of some personal issues. It could be reppression, bullying, etc. that comes out in this exaggearted and caricaturesque way.

I'm afraid, most expressions of femininity among gay men seem to rotate around degrees of campiness, probaly because the gay scene exalts that form of expression way too much...

The problem with flamboyance and campiness is that is seldom Self-contained. It often involves imposing nasty, cutting, vulgar, or presumptuous effeminancy on bystanders who want nothing to do with it.

I like conventionally manly dudes. No apology.

This is over over over the top, but perhaps a little example why guys are turned off at least by certain expressions of femininty in men.

that is clowinish dude

[quote]I think people need to realize that there aren't any "sides".

AYFKM? The "mascs" have redlined the entire rest of the gay community. They created sides.

[quote]"The femmes should stick with the femmes" is anti-masc.

It's the very essence of "masc." What in the name of fuck are you talking about?

Socialisation, in my opinion, has a lot of influence on how our personalities will develop.

I read briefly a post made by a gay guy on Reddit last week and he expressed some kind of fetisization of femininity. For him femininity was the ultimate expresison of submissiveness to enjoy sex with men.

Ugh, here is the “Gay men are Fem because they think it attracts men” Troll. Side eye.

I like men who act like dudes.

The goal should be mutual civility.

I like men who aren't assholes.

I prefer "dudes" who act like men to men who act like "dudes."

What are femininity and masculinity in terms of behaviour/self-expression if not the product of socialisation and even personal choice?

If you want to act masculine you can do it; if you want to act feminine you can do it. Nothing stops you from being successful at it except how much a certain way of behaving appeals to you.

A gay guy may be more inclined to develop a feminine personality because like women he likes men and realising that can have an impact on what traits he will develop more over others.

More tired of bottoms getting disrespect all the time

Why ‘Masc4Masc’ Isn’t Necessarily Self-Hating And Anti-Gay.

Masculine is as legitimate a gay quality as feminine.

Watching the WOrld Series just reminded me of how much I am attracted to natural, genuine masculinity. The confidence, the swag, the athleticism, the matter-of-factness, the competitive drive, the brotherhood.

Gay men's attraction to masculinity is such an offense these days.

I'm not into femmy guys and I avoid them.

There's another thread her on a twerp called "Ezra Miller". Is he a femmy guy?

Ghmmmmm

HMMmmmmmm

If you put yourself out there in the real world where you have to interact with people face to face you might have more chances to find a partner for a long lasting relationship.

Dating apps are mainly for quick sex and obviously everybody, included your effeminate gay men, are there for the hot guys, for the masculine ones.

Hmmmmm

It's becoming a recurrent topic lately.

Listen, I'm with the fems 100% politically. I even find them to be great friends because of their cartoonish personalities, which can be very amusing.

guys that preen and are obsessed with their bodies and protein powder are a complete turnoff.

Masculinity is not defined by protein powders. Effeminate men can also take protein powders.

Why do some people insist on defining masculinity as insecurity?

Bump

Fmmm

You can’t change attraction

Hmmmmm

Queerty's Misunderstanding of Gay Men in Relationships

Queerty is horrible

Exactly R230 I'm tired of all those inflatable dolls passing off for masculine men.

Passing off as* masculine men (I think lol... Not my native language, sorry if it sounds awful)

Perhaps a question that deserves its own thread but I wonder why the gay scene is basically all about men dressing and behaving like women. Why it rotates so hevaily and obsessively around the idea of imitating women instea dof simply being themselves, being men.

That’s why a lot of bi and gay men avoid the gay scene and culture

Can we be ourselves without having to end up being some kind of imitation of women?

I can

Boom

Boom what?

Today they are unscientifically called autogynephilics, but in ancient times the stereotype of effeminacy was associated with heterosexual men whose love of women was so strong that they sort of adopted a feminine image and acquired feminine mannerisms too.

OP's gif has me moist

Mmmm

Masculinity is thought of as definitve of manhood.

[QUOTE]Tired of the Masculine Worship in the Gay Community

Goody, that's more then for those of us who like our men manly !

Is it manly to say “goody?”

In my case cupcake, yes it is.

Why would you be tired of masculiity when the gay scene is all about effeminacy?

Even events such as Mister Gay have considerable displays of effeminacy.

That’s exactly why so many don’t want to identify as gay. Freaky drag clown culture

Is there anything else to say?

Oh boy

Freaky Drag clown culture! Lol

Hmmmm

who in heck wants to sex a nelly?

Some like them just like some heterosexual men actually like masculine women.

You could have gay sex in the Roman army, so long as you were the top.

The Romans were #Masc4Masc long before Grindr even came up with the term

Well Ancient Rome and Greece strongly stigmatized adult men who played any passive sexual role

Part of the problem is so many regular guys find effeminate males to be nasty, bitchy, catty, messy, negative, hypercritical, gossipy, high maintenance, and just plain annoying. Who wants to be around a dude like that.

I love masculinity, but I see it as a spectrum. Most people seem to have a very rigid idea of masculinity...

R263, yeah masculinity is a defined very narrowly and often viewed as being in opposition to femininity.

Gay guys in the PH are still defining our culture, struggling with identifying with the rainbow flag. We still have a hard time reconciling our identities with what’s “socially acceptable.” The “famous” faces of our community are stereotypical. Fem/masc are BIG issues.

You may be criticising activism I think...

If a gay man acted not like that flamboyant projection of femininity but more like an actual woman, a more natural display of feminine mannerisms; would that fix it for you, would it make you more attracted to him?

I wouldn’t, but I would be more likely to be friendly with them

I’m attracted to a guy who fits in with other regular guys/my friends and shoots hoops with me on a “date.” That’s what I like. No apologies.

Hmmm

Is it true that the Stonewall thing was mainly drag queens and effeminate gay men behind the movement or was it more diverse than that?

I like men who fit in with my bros and DONT act weird

Bros can act weird too. Sometimes some of them act like caricatures of masculinity.

But it’s accepted, mainstream

When you become a caricature of femininity or masculinity people can't see the real self and then they cannot connect with you.

OP = tranny

Bbvcc

Gay men and masculinity

It’s not worship, it’s being certain of what you like and seek.

Everybody needs a drag queen in bed.

Fetishization of womanhood/femininity for its perceived power to attract men.

I think this is basically why the gay scene is so heavily centered around idealized female icons and femininity. It's greatly fetishistic even if some try to deny it.

I think we should worship masculinity more in the gay community

More than worshipping masculinity the gay scene should stop making fetishization of female icons as the definition of being gay.

I don't see why people think one's whole personality develops according to the idea of attracting whatever sex you prefer. You are you--your activities and character and self-expression. Sex is secondary. Also, following this theory there shouldn't be fem bi dudes because bi dudes are also attracted to women, thus, they wouldn't pick up feminine mannerisms.

Fetishization of femininity is observed among men of different sexual orientations but the type of fetishization is not the same.

Heterosexual men are at the top in terms of fetishization of femininity better knows as transvestic fetishism. Hard to epxlain why they are turned on by femininity so much to the point of crossdressing.

For gay men who are flamboyantly effeminate or close to crossdressing it is because in the heterosexual dynamic of seduction femininity attracts men so some feminintiy becomes charming and enjoyable way to act around people, especially around the men they want to attact whee they are lucky or not. If you notice most flamboyant gay men tend to be oversexual in their behaviour, aways with a secutive character. That's the libido that tends to be high among them.

OH wow

I really miss John Hirka. One of the most beautiful men alive. A true gift to gays

Hetero worship? R287

More like worshiping anyone who looks like that and wants to post videos of themselves online in nothing but underwear. I don't much care if they are gay or straight. r288

I think admiring gy men should be the case; not hetero men

I don't think sexual attraction should also be some sort of expression of values or morals. Society always runs into trouble when they cross the two. I'm a proud gay man and support other gays whenever I can. If I want to jerk off to straight guys sometimes there's nothing wrong with that.

Heterosexual men have a distorted idea of masculinity more related to sexism and violence.

I was reading yesterday about masculinity among gay men since ancient times and how we eroticise masculinity. Homosexual men were competitve, conformting physical skills and strength but not asserting position through violence like heterosexual men do. Heterosexual men need to be re-educated on masculinity but to do so they first must stop fearing homosexuality. Their idea of masculinity is condition by the fear of homosexuality.

And when it comes to Gay Pride, apart from other criticism of Gay Pride does anybody else think that the excessive celeration of gender nonconformity drowns out the visibilisation of homosexuality at Pride.

Gender nonconfority always becomes the soul of the party and it all rvolves around it, drag queens, transvestites, etc. It shouldn't be called Gay Pride anymore.

LEAVE DL R293. No one wants to argue trans crap with you. Tired of you trolling every thread

No asked you opinion. You are free to leave R294

Gay media and gay social media is filled with catty anti-masc4masc comments. Why be upset about what others like and prefer?

I'm tired of OP being whiny and tired!

The world idealizes masculinity

BUMP

I think gay men's attraction to masculinity to any relevant degree may have an evolutive reason. Basically, by eroticizing masculinity men would be encouraed to become strong for the survival and overall benefit of the community when humans were very primitive and had to fight against other tribes and wild animals for resorces and shelter...

Boss

@beaumesadieu_4 The reason gay men are portrayed to be more creative and artistic is they’re not afraid to hurt their masculinity and do things out of the box.

Im tired of femenity worship.

How so?

I'm not creative or artistic. It has nothing to do with sexual orientation.

There are masculine men who are creative

I only like Alphas

Masculinity and alpha male status are not the same thing.

When we were primitive creatures wandering from place to place looking for resources we needed strong me to protect our tribes from other rival tribes and wild animals. But being strong only to protect the clan isn't fun enough. So, nature connected muscles and strenght with sexual pleasure to reward the hard work of men who even put their lives at risk for us.

This is why gay men are attracted to masculinity and favour it in men. By making it sexually attractive men have an incentive to do the hard work and recieve a reward for it. Just like with sex; sex is pleasurable because if it weren't people would not do it.

Also power and dominance connotes security and wealth

So basically, gay men's attraction to masculinity is not simply an arbitrary inclination but actually nature's way to increase our chances for survival as a species.

Procreation is overrated; protection is also needed for a species to survive.

Well, people want to be associated with and near winners. We think of masculine guys as winners because society prefers them (see studies on job promotions); society days they are attractive; and they tend to be dominant or at least not subjected to physical or social subjugation. Being friends or lovers with them has benefits of safety and access to social privilege.

Society says they are attractive

Not society; our biology.

The problem is that homosexuality and effeminacy are virtually synonymous in the modern public’s mind. All men who love men are stigmatized as being intrinsically effeminate. Men who engage in homosexual sex are expected to embrace gay culture and are believed, especially by other homosexuals, to be ‘girls on the inside’—no matter how they look and behave, or what their interests may be. As I mentioned above, a sense of manhood is important to most men. Yet, simply by acknowledging same-sex desire, men are expected to relinquish their manhood. They must submit to psychological castration. While this may seem like no great loss to effeminate men who never put much stock in manhood, what of those who do hold masculinity in high regard? What of those androphiles who love men and love being men, for whom masculinity is a thing of beauty and value? I don’t love men because I see myself as girlish; I love men because I’ve developed a deep-seated appreciation for men and for masculinity itself. Men fascinate and inspire me. I love them in their finest moments, but also in the midst of struggle. Just watching men is a pleasure; I see in them innumerable qualities that women often fail to appreciate. I appreciate these things precisely because I am a man, because their masculinity is a reflection of my own. And yet, for this, in some perverse twist of reason, I must give up my own manhood? For this, I am regarded as effeminate and expected to entertain myself with girly things? Fuck that. - Jack Donovan

It's hilarious to read women's comments on why we are not attracted to femininity. They think we repress queen within. They have no clue about male homosexuality.

Some gay men are jealous of women and at least act like they wish they were women. You see it in the misogyny, the nasty catty criticism of hot women, and the inclination to identify with and fixate on flamboyant female personalities and celebrities.

Masculinity is what I love

To be the female half in a homosexual relationship.

Huh?

It is not uncommon that a lot of effeminate gay men believe in the feminine-masculine dynamic as you see in heterosexuality and they expect to replicate that model with another man. That's why they usually look frustrated that masculine gay men reject them because they expect them to be attracted to femininnity while those men represent the masculine half.

Not a psychologist here so don't take it seriously, but I think some effeminate gay men may have eroticised femininity since childhood because they always saw its power to attract men so they want that power and that dynamic...

Masculinity is sexy

There are many expressions of femininity. I consider that most effeminate gay men's expression of femininity is distateful, usually heavily driven by their lust, a desperate need to appear sexually attractive to masculine (usually heterosexually-perceived men).

I'm not attracted to the guys in the video below but I find their feminine expression graceful. They are not necessarilly gay since most of these artists are heterosexual. They belong to a scene within Japanese music where gender nonconformity is the rule but their feminine body language has grace, it doesn't come off as ungracefully sexualised a if imitating a diva pop singer and doesn't deny their nature as males.

Most of the time they are just playing around but if you pay attention to the femininity in their body language it is graceful.

I like Alpha males who exhibit conventional masculinity. It just my thing.

I like actual jocks.

Is there anything else to say to enrich the conversation?

The challenge is for masc4masc dudes to express their masculine preference in a manner that does not dehumanize or degrade nonmasculine guys. It has to done with respect.

What is clear is that on Grindr everybody looks for masculine men, even the ones who complain about masculinity :P

Why the salty lambasting of masc4masc men On social Media? They ridicule them yet seem Upset masc4masc men aren’t interested in them? Why not just ignore them and be happy dating fem men? Why not start a fem4fem movement?

I’m with sexologist Ray Blanchard in believing there may be more than just one type of homosexuality, with separate and distinct pathways just happening to converge in homosexuality; neurological and/or in utero hormonal profiles roughly coterminous with “masc” and “fem”—the later shading into gender dysporia and trans. We have little in common except being both same-sex attracted and many of us can be no more attracted to a feminine male than to an actual female.

Blanchard's work is basically bullshit.

Masculine and feminine demeanor are not biological but socially constucted and a person can come and from from other to the other throughout their lives

Blanchard has a heterocentrist vision where attraction to men is inherently a woman's thing so in his mind a homosexual man is a failed woman. Don't you see his homophobia?

Interesting

As a homosexual gay myself I don't feel like a woman, I don't identify with women, I don't feel represented by women; I don't experience love and sex like women do because men and women are different biologically.

Blanchard does not understand homosexuality. If you read his works he i full of misconceptions about homosexuality because he poses heterosexuality as literally the correct for of attraction.

Nah r330, what I see there is a tranny proganda-led deliberate distortion and caricature of Blanchard’s work. But nice try, my blue-haired friend

Hmm... Oppression and repression cause some gays to become flamboyant, camp, etc.

Some

Why are some gays so sassy and camp?

Already said, many factors: women as the closest example of attraction to men and some take womne as role models; repression, resenment, defense mechanism, etc. I would even propose a degree of fetishism of the female role, especially in those whose effeminate behaviour is evidently sexual. Female role as in playing the delicate (woman) and the aggressive (man) sides in an ideal sex encounter between a man and a woman among heterosexuals.

Masculinity is policed so much in society because it’s viewed as superior

Socialization is a huge influence

Or lack thereof.

Queer-identified people hate masculinity; male homosexuality loves masculinity.

Really?

I will have to check out Blanchard R329, thanks for the tip.

I have wondered if it is a nature vs nurture thing, that some guys are born gay (the ones who you know are gay when they're in kindergarten) and others become gay due to external factors. It made sense on one level, but always sounded too pat and easy on another.

But my biggest fear when I figured out I was gay wasn't that my family would disown me or that I'd never get a job, it was that I'd never fit into a community of Judy Garland loving, show tunes singing, fashion obsessed men who hated sports.

I've found that I'm not the only gay guy who felt like that too, but we are fewer and farther between.

Hmmm. All I'm finding on Blanchard is his theory on birth order R329 (younger brothers with lots of older brothers are more prone to be gay)

Nothing about two paths to gay-- would you be so kind as to provide a link perhaps?

Thanks

Personality is not genetically determined.

Bump

Blanchard thinks effeminated gay men are failed women and masculine gay men are narcissistic men who fetishise masculinity because gay men cannot be truly masculine. Blanchard not only fails to understand homosexuality diue to his heterosexist biases but also pathologises it.

True

Bump

Depending from the angle you look at it effeminacy can be described as an act of comformity to gender roles where, in a way, you express yourself in similar fashion to women because you like men.

Blanchard?

I think the chasm between masculine and fem men is growing among bi/gay men.

Nancy Boys are a dick wilter.

R352 Have you never seen Gen Z? That gap is getting much smaller lol

Among Republicans who say society generally looks up to masculine men, 78% consider this to be a positive thing. In contrast, Democrats who say society looks up to these men are divided: 49% say this is a good thing and 48% say it is a bad thing.

Republicans love masculinity

When I was a kid there were times I would dream of a bigger guy saving me and stuff like that. It frustrated me that only girls/women were given the role and were expected to be the ones saved and protected by a man. I think this kind of dreams are normal for a fraction a gay boys, but in the total absence of boys/men taking that role some will project and sublimate such feelings through women. With this I'm trying to say most of our gender behaviour is influenced by the outside world. I was never a macho boy but girls' behaviour didn't resonate with me either.

Fortunately, today there are tales where a boy is saved and protected by another boy. This way gay kids can see themselves through male characters taking the role that was arbitrarily reserved for girls/women.

I can relate R357 I've always wanted the feeling of being protected by a bigger stronger man

Fascinating

Not just masculine worship, but also worship of dudes who are nongay.

It's normal and natural to experience that need. The problem is society that only allows those feelings and role to be experienced by women. This is why I think some gay boys/men eventually end up shaping their personalities after models they see in women, because women have been the only and closest example they can relate to. I would extend this to drag queens too, although, in my opinion, drag is more fetishistic of female sexuality hence the oversexualised nature of drag. R358

Today things are slowly changing with stories where superheroes save men; knights save princes, etc. and now gay boys can see themselves in male characters.

People like very different things