Mindhunter

Groff sure gets regular work doesn't he? Actors complaining about not getting parts after coming out should get a wake up call from that.

Looks interesting! Plenty of monsters to choose from to portray...

That's supposed to be Edmund Kemper.

Whole series dropped today and is getting good reviews.

Sorry, but I won't be able to buy desperate to be loved shopbottom Groff as an FBI agent.

I'm gonna hafta re-up. Looks good. And shit on you, R5, with your corrosive "shopbottom" cuntery.

It's already been picked up for a second season. Netflix must have loved what they'd seen to renew something before the first season had even aired. Then again, David Fincher is a producer and director on this.

R6, Groff is never gonna fall in love with you. Give it up.

Yikes, Kemper was gruesome. The 70s were a particular nasty time for serial killers.

They don't make them like they used to.

[quote] It's already been picked up for a second season. Netflix must have loved what they'd seen to renew something before the first season had even aired. Then again, David Fincher is a producer and director on this.

No, networks now do this as a ploy to get a little extra publicity and create the illusion that the show must be so good, it's even getting renewed before it airs. Starz was the first network to do this with their first series "Boss" with Kelsey Grammar. it backfired on them terribly because no one watched Boss and they were stuck having to produce a 2nd season. Now there are plenty of loopholes to get a network out of the obligation to proceed with the renewal (i.e. HBO's Vinyl and that shitty series with Tim Robbins and Jack Black).

Excuse me, *Grammer.

R11 The reaction to the first trailer which was released what seems like a year ago was VERY positive though. I know personally that, the moment I saw it, I knew I had to watch it. Every other YouTube comment I saw was from someone just as excited.

R13, I didn't comment on the quality or excitement anyone has about the show, I merely told you the reasoning behind networks renewing a show before it even premieres. It's not like Mindhunter is the first show this has ever happened to, and it's not as if Netflix invented the concept. Christ, NBC did it with Will and Grace two months ago.

I've watched the first two episode and so far it's extremely boring. The pacing is terrible. I'm a fan of Fincher's stuff, especially Zodiac, which this seems like it wants to be, but I feel like maybe he doesn't understand how to make TV. Scenes just kind of happen. Groff is... ok. Not great, not terrible, just kind of there. He really has nothing to play.

I hate Dennis Rader so fucking much that I can't stand to see him portrayed at all since he was just an attention whore. Kemper was interesting though and has some shrinks totally snowed since he's some kind of genius too.

Groff has a great ass

There's a lengthy scene of Groff eating out his girlfriend.

We get a dick shot in the first scene. That's promising.

Whose dick, R19?

[quote] There's a lengthy scene of Groff eating out his girlfriend.

I'll bet THAT was believable.

It's a guy holding a hostage.

First episode is awfully talky and boring.

I'm not sure I can stick it out for the rest of the series.

I would expect it to be talky (because of the conversing with killers dealio), but the first episode is losing me. Way to chatty for me.

R18 Lea must be so jealous.

It gets better after episode 3.

R25 I agree. The later episodes are great.

Entertainment Weekly described the show as a 'leisurely look .....'

Uhm, leisurely = talky, boring and slow.

I trust my DL brethren ........... I'll try to stick out the next two episodes this weekend and see the promised improvement.

The actress who plays Groff's girlfriend is terrible. I don't know if it's an under-bite or that she's mumbling or both but her line delivery is awful. The actors who play the serial killers are excellent. I'm through episode 7 so far. It's decent.

I can't really buy Groff as straight...

Y'all better watch this one.

I didn't plan binge-watching but it happened. It has slower start in the first two episodes, but from the third it gets dynamic with humourous moments. I liked the transformation Groff's character gores through, he played it convincingly. Now hoping for the second season.

I found the 4 episodes that Fincher directed to be the slowest and least interesting. He's one of my favorite directors so that feels strange.

The interactions between Holden and his girlfriend Debbie are so stilted and unnatural. They speak to each other like they're on a first date or something. The timing is off. The girlfriend not having a shred of acting ability doesn't help.

Anna Torv isn't very impressive either. She always has this puckered expression on her face that I think she wants us to think is "intense." What was the point of the whole feeding the cat thing?

Good first episode. Last time I saw his hot naked ass was in Looking. Weird to see it humping on top of a woman in this series.

The last episode is maybe the best acting Groff has done.

I fell asleep during the first episode. And what I saw of Groof was not convincing: he was not believable, he's got the whole aspie-tumblr vibe he had in Looking but this show is set in the 70s. So no, thanks. I'll watch Zodiac again instead.

Zodiac had much better actors. In fact, Jake Gyllenhaal would have been great in Groff's role here but sadly he and Fincher will probably never work together again.

Why will Jake and Fincher never work together again?

*Spoiler*

What happened to Holden at the end of episode 10? Did he have a complete mental breakdown? Will he become a serial killer?

Jake was too sensitive about Fincher requiring too many takes and later complained to the press about it.

I think Holden was just having a panic attack.

Assuming the series doesn't go completely off the rails and outside of what happened in real life, no Holden won't become a serial killer. I can see how being in Edmund Kemper's meaty-pawed embrace could set off a panic attack in anybody. That man looks like he could have ripped your head off with his bare hands (and then rape your skull afterwards). It was an interesting point to end season 1, and I'm curious where they will go with the next season. I imagine they'll start working in some of the more high profile and famous cases the FBI worked .

r40 I know in real life Kemper's shrink thinks he's some kind of unsung genius, I think he is totally snowed. At least he's not a total asswipe, attention whore like that fuckstick Rader.

The actress who plays the g/f is extremely annoying. Another thing that bothers me is that they use expressions and words that aren’t true to the time period.

R35 Groff's character evolves from that naive open-minded kid, confused and looking for a lead from the first episode. At the end he alienates his partners and GF with his "I know the best" attitude. I think that Jon played his character perfectly.

How can you comment on the show when you saw just a part of the first episode? The show actually surprised me as it offers much more than traillers suggested.

SECOND episode was an improvement over the first one. I'll keep watching. Everything with the girlfriend seems to stop the series cold. And those long musical montages ...........enough. At 60 minutes long, each episode just feels a little 'too long'. Cut the girlfriend and the music montages.

If you don't already know it, the series is based on a real life FBI agent/profiler. Holden is based on John Douglas, who has written about a half dozen EXCELLENT (if you're into true crime) books, including his first on called ' Mindhunter '.

His end story about his meeting with Ed Kemper (as best I can recall) is basically that Ed Kemper told him (chillingly) that Ed could've killed John the very first time they met, when John told the guard to uncuff him. Says something about John being dead before the guards even made it back into the room. He terrified John after that because his cordial demeanor was a mask he could quickly take off.

I highly recommend the John Douglas books.

Not to worry R44, you ADD will not be tested. Most episodes are 50 min or less, with one clocking in at 38 min.

He’s SO GAY!!

The purses when he speaks!

He cannot play a straight character.

I have to admit, if I didn't know about Groff's personal life before seeing this, I think I still would have guessed that he played for the homo team. I don't know why that is exactly. Unfortunately it's this kind of thing that keeps actors from coming out.

I think Groff is okay (though he does seem slightly uncomfortable or self-conscious in the heterosexual scenes, which are badly written anyway) but the show itself is not. I've always nine episodes and I still could not explain to you what it's about— in other words, why the plot includes these events and not others, what it's trying to communicate, what its "themes" are, and so on. It feels weirdly random and full of caricatures instead of characters. I'm entertained by the serial killers, who the actors seem to relish playing, but everything else stays lifeless.

<-- "already seen nine episodes"

Maybe that's why his character has a massive panic attack at the end of the show. Kemper's embrace made him realize that he yearns for the sweet touch of another man.

His voice is just so velvety and soft, when he says something like "cunt" it's just... uncomfortable.

However, it is totally believable that someone with such a fluffy demeanor would be a hostage negotiator.

There are a ton of things wrong with this show. As mentioned, it's all talk, no action. It's really terribly written - the dialog and exchanges between the agents is stilted, unrealistic, and expository. The FBI boss is irrational, then solicitous, then supportive, then ignorant, all in the same scene.

And, another subtle but fatal problem is that although it's set in the 60's/early 70's it's just not convincingly period enough. The characters are modern in their sensibilities, and you never buy them as people from the era. That was one thing Mad Men did so brilliantly, and here it's like an amateurish college play. It's really little things. For example, you don't see anyone smoking. Scenes on the plane are perfectly lit, making it look like a TV set. They blow smoke past the windows to look like clouds flying by.

Other things they do to try to set the period. They have those stupid cards with huge fonts announcing the cities they're visiting. As if that's genre-related somehow. And they play top-40 music that doesn't really set the scenes or generate any period atmosphere at all.

Groff is also a whispering mutterer and he gets on my nerves after a while. He's sure pretty, though.

Another badly written, shitty Netflix Original!

The music is badly done, even though they’re hits.

It takes you even more out of the show and doesn’t emote the 70s at all.

They should be using period studio music and the non-hits that were playing on the radio at that time, not top 40.

And the haircuts are so wrong.

Overall, just another shit project from the retards at Netflix.

[quote] For example, you don't see anyone smoking.

The Bill character smokes constantly. Office, car, airplanes.

Does he, R55? My bad. He's so poorly drawn I didn't even notice.

The Bill Tench character is so well-written and acted and is easily the VIP of the show. It feels so authentic.

[quote]The Bill Tench character is so well-written and acted...

he could be on Dragnet.

Same, r56.

My favorite stupidly-written Bill Tench line so far:

Welder: So I come off the trail to take a piss; no law again it.

Tench: There may be actually, but let's leave that for now.

Has anyone made it through the first episode? The writing is god awful and there is zero chemistry between the actors. Maybe it gets better as you watch it? I had to bail just over half way through at the "beer and smokes by the pool" scene.

Groan...

So we got anti-Netflix bots here. R52 I just think opposite to every single point you had. I also think you really did not watch the show since you missed cigarettes in almost every scene (not just Bill Tench for your information).

After binge-watching I am now slowly processing eposide by episode and keep finding new gems. Now I understand Fincher's remark that he wanted to make it like a book, that you want to return to. But just like good literature, not everyone is capable of understanding symbols, hidden meanings, question that it aroused. There is so much more in this show that any other crime-show I ever watched. Additionally I enjoyed its rhythm, atmosphere, the whole period, music and especially acting. Both leads are excellent, but of course I enjoyed Jonathan more.

R63, you are so full of shit and have zero taste.

R64 You just confirmed my assumptions.

I'm surprised how much criticism this is getting here and on reddit. I've watched 3 eps and am really enjoying it.

I'm female and had no idea the lead actor was gay until I read this thread, I thought him and his girl were hot together in the first couple of episodes. I think he is fine playing a straight guy.

R48 Actually Groff said that he loved shooting sex scenes so it is your projecting. Could you be more specific about what you don't understand (quote "why the plot includes these events and not others, what it's trying to communicate, what its "themes" are, and so on..") ? Maybe we can help you.

Is r66 supposed to be satire?

“Him and his girl”?

Holy shit.

R68 No, is it really that weird that someone thinks he is a good lead in this?

The point, dear, is that you sound quite uneducated.

And you’re a frau.

So please leave.

R71 You are either a jealous actor, that Groff-hater or anti-Netfix bot. And we need straight women here to tell us whether hetero sex scene is convincing or not.

A couple of people have started "Is he gay?" threads about Groff on Reddit but the majority of fanboys don't care and don't think it matters, so whoever said Reddit is full of haters is a troll.

Keep in mind Fincher has cast out gay actors as straight in the past (NPH in Gone Girl), so he doesn't give a shit.

I’ve watched four episodes and I’m not sure I want to proceed any further. I appreciate that it’s atmospheric (Fincher’s specialty) and that it requires some patience, but there doesn’t seem to be a lot of payoff. Groff is the most appealing thing about this. I hope it’s for him, but this doesn’t seem like a show that will generate a lot of buzz.

Oops! That should read, “I hope it’s a hit for him [Groff],...”

[quote] Groff has a great ass

Those gifs you're posting sure don't show it. They're completely dark.

I gave up after the first episode because of the awful dialogue and overall talkiness.

The show poses the question about preemtive action that agent Ford pushes. I like that at the time his FBI boss and partners opposed the thought police, unlike todays trend. Do you think that Ford's intuition about the school principle justified his actions?

R77 The quality of the script kept improving through the episodes. The first is the weakest.

I’m waiting for the 2nd season which will be based on the BTK case. I enjoyed the setups of the case in the 1st season. I recommend reading the book Mindhunter by John Douglas and Mark Olshaker which this show is based on especially if you want to learn about famous serial killers and the techniques used to classify these killers.

R52, Agree with you on some points. Especially Groff. Miscast for this I think as he never convinces me he gets into the character. Found him to be the least enjoyable.

R71, Groff fanfraus are up there with the Henry Cavill and Luke Evans fans. They flip their shit and harass anyone who comments about Groff. They confuse Datalounge with straight women fan sites. Since Datalounge is infested with these crazy breeders, just ignore them.

There's too much out there vying for my attention to have to wade through three shitty episodes until it "starts" to get "better." There are plenty of other shows that don't waste my time for me to bother with this one.

I'm not saying you have to give me everything in the first hour, just give me a good reason to come back.

[quote]Do you think that Ford's intuition about the school principle justified his actions?

That subplot was by far the most interesting of the series, and for the reasons you mention. It actually was well-presented and concise, making its theme clear and even had a callback to it. Unlike every other part of the story, unfortunately, in which people did things for mostly no apparent reason.

For example, why did Holden's girlfriend break up with him? I think they were trying to tell us, but it wasn't at all clear from their interactions. They had to have that "deduction" scene on the porch to tell us. Not very emotionally moving in any way. And that's just one example.

Did you feel the Tench familly's heartbreak over having an autistic kid? I sure didn't, because they didn't show a bit of tenderness in Bill. The cat feeding was just stupid. The whole trip to Georgia was a farce, did you believe Wendy's motivations and rationale for a second?

It just goes on.

I think we're supposed to think that the gf broke up with him because he had changed as a result of his work with these serial killers. I don't buy it, though, because he was a square bore beforehand and needed a little shaking up. I hope they stay broken up because that actress was the worst and I was glad to see her go.

Smells like another overpriced bomb from Netflix, but they'll probably renew it for a 2nd season to save face with the press and carry on the bullshit illusion that everything they do is a massive hit.

Jesus, I finally put it on and the girlfriend in the first scene where they meet in the bar is fucking horrid, like so stilted and wooden, reminds me of the shitty acting of Veronica in "Clerks". "What kind of grown man let's his parents pick his clothes?" I mean it's like a bad SNL skit.

It has already been renewed for a second season R85.

I didn't buy NPH in his role in Gone Girl but I don't like him as a film/tv actor anyway. I only like him in theater. Fincher comes across a bit fruity so maybe he's making a point to give gay actors a shot in straight roles: Tyler Perry, NPH, Jon Groff.

[quote] It has already been renewed for a second season

Oh, right. One of those renewals before it even airs because we're Netflix and we're AMAZING and INFALLIBLE.

They should replace the ugly gf with a hot guy.

If the guy came out, it would make this shitty show somewhat interesting.

I *strongly* agree, r85.

Fincher has always been very gay friendly. Don't forget he began his career directing music videos for Madonna, George Michael and Paul Abdul.

*Paula

I enjoyed it, although some of those serial killer interviews were a bit much. I don't want to hear Jonathan Groff saying "eight ripe cunts" ever again. Bill Tensch is my favorite character so far, but the actor who plays Kemper is amazing.

That scene with Kemper and Holden in the hospital at the end - was anyone else expecting Kemper to try and kiss him when he went in for the hug? I swear, through all the interviews, it appeared that Kemper definitely had romantic feelings for him. I felt like even Tensch was picking up on it, every time Kemper would walk over with an excuse to touch Holden.

The King approves.

I'm struggling to continue with this series as well. It's boring so far and I'm really hoping it picks up soon. Groff doesn't display an ounce of masculinity and is simply not believable as an FBI hostage negotiator. He has a high pitched, girly voice and manner. He's clearly theatrical in the way he moves his hands and body. I can picture his students from the '70's snickering at him. Does not play straight AT ALL.

The series doesn't even try to get the historical period right. Haircuts, clothing, relationship dynamics, vernacular---it's all too recent.

One of the main running themes of the show is the link between the murder and torture of women and the killers' extreme masculinity issues - it's brought up tons of times. Groff's character isn't supposed to be butch. The entire show is challenging that.

Started watching episode 1, but just had to turn it off. What a load of (politically correct) crap.

Preachy.

Agree, r98.

Well, since he talks like a woman, r97, this should be working out quite well for him.

Fincher said for Season 2 they're looking at doing the Atlanta Child murders. If they go that route, how are they going to continue the stuff about the BTK killer?

I hope to never see the gf again. Give me info about Ford's family, background, etc.

Wendy should have been played by Charlotte Rampling who owns the severe lesbian academic serial killer scholar meme.

R101 They have 30 years to continue with BTK's story. He wasn't caught until 2005.

R83 Here are my thoughts about your questions:

His GF says that he has changed - and he did - he used to be "sweet and curious". Additionally she has that guy who is becoming more than just a classmate. Ford on the other hand likes that she is smart, but also wants her to approve his actions and be always there for him (come immediately after car crash to pick him up, leave her late night studying for sex with him). She is an independent, free-thinking girl of her time and he is more old-fashioned (his suites stuff). At the beginning there is attraction between the opposites, but that could not last. So the break-up was only logical.

Lack of tenderness in Bill for his adopted son is explained with Bill not having had a real father in his childhood ("all fathers are absent fathers"). Domestic issue makes him run away on long business trips or to golf course. But his is ready to change and try more and that's why he refuses to accompany Ford on a weekend trip to Kemper last time. It will be interesting to see in the next season whether Bill and his wife are actually raising a future sociopath.

The cat feeding scenes are not stupid, they are symbolic and explain Dr Carr's character. She enjoys playing that little game with a cat that she actually does not see. She tries to lure it out of the dark and enjoys the idea that she will one day since the mysterious cat seems responsive. But in the end, when it is not as she predicted and the can is full of worms and ants, she is disgusted and just runs away. It corresponds to what is happening on her project and her relations to teammates through episodes. I could go more about this symbolic scenes, but I guess this was enough. And these scenes also have specific suspense atmosphere to enjoy.

Groff is so awful in this, even the cadre of DL Groff stans are being strangely silent. They can't even justify his being in this.

Cameron Britton has Harold and Maude on his Twitter page. I like this guy.

So many Groff haters on this site. She's gone prestige, bitches. Deal with it.

I liked the series.

He’s such a nancy boy.

R107 Probably not that many as it looks. There is one poster that keeps coming back to say "There are plenty of other shows that don't waste my time for me to bother with this one". So far he wasted his time on this thread with at least 10 posts (latest is R105 saying that Groff is awful in a show that the poster did not watch beyond half of the first episode). There may be other recurring missionaries here.

I liked the show but I'm not sure if Groff is really good or really bad in it.

The actors playing the killers are excellent though. Especially the one playing Richard Speck. Fucking monster.

I may be the only one, but these interviews with serial killers were not the most interesting part of the show to me, I liked other stuff more. Actors playing serial killers were believable except the Ed Kemper actor - physically he was not intimidating enough, looked too soft to me. I love the show and keep re-watching it. I knew that Jonathan would be great, he really is an amazing actor - Holt is also excellent, he is an expected bonus. There is so much potential in the first season left for the next. Only sorry that we will have to wait for the second season that long.

[quote] [R107] Probably not that many as it looks. There is one poster that keeps coming back to say "There are plenty of other shows that don't waste my time for me to bother with this one". So far he wasted his time on this thread with at least 10 posts (latest is [R105] saying that Groff is awful in a show that the poster did not watch beyond half of the first episode). There may be other recurring missionaries here.

Sorry, Groff-stan, but you fail on pretty much everything you typed above. I haven't come back to say ""There are plenty of other shows that don't waste my time for me to bother with this one." I said something like it (which you mangled) and I said it once. Also, "saying that Groff is awful in a show that the poster did not watch beyond half of the first episode)." is completely false. I never said I only watched half the episode.

And if you want to talk serial-postings, your bilge is pretty much filling up this thread. Just like it did on The Deuce thread. You're a creepy freak who's one of those stalker-fans who likely masturbates to their own posts. I mean, do what you want, but don't drag us down with you.

R113 I come here to talk about the show that I watched all episodes. And to read comments of people how also watched the show. How many episodes did you actually watch?

What is The Deuce thread?

Interview with Ed Kemper.

i like it so far, didnt like the chemistry between him and his gf though, i understand she is supposed to be this independent and smart woman but there was nothing sweet or nice about her.

Is this another thread dominated by crazed fraus?

This show sucks, and the lead is absolutely terrible.

What a KA-WEEN!!!

[quote] I come here to talk about the show that I watched all episodes. And to read comments of people how also watched the show. How many episodes did you actually watch?

Well, if you don't like that people have negative things to say about your precious show and your precious Groff, maybe you should start a new thread that you can control that only has nice things to say about Mindhunter and Groff. From the looks of this thread, it would appear you'll be very lonely there.

Fraus wouldn't watch this show. They watch This Is Us

Thank you R104, that cleared a few things up. I was confused about the cat, and why the girlfriend broke up with him.

After digesting the series for a few days, I can honestly say the show is goo. The killers are dead on. The actor for Bill does a great job. Groff's character Holden however is one-dimensional. I blame it on the writing and the directing. Groff is a decent performer when given a chance. I do feel he is better suited for the stage. Also, I think Groff has to be inspired by the writing/story in order to be deliver a more engaging performance. His character never really connects with the audience.

[quote]I can honestly say the show is goo.

This is EXACTLY the type of thoughtful, in-depth criticism that I come to the DL for.

I think the show is goo too. Not good. And I watched all of it, waiting to see when it would get better.

R119 What is this "This is Us" that I keep hearing about? Even the title sounds nauseating. Speaking of title, my mind keeps thinking "Mindhunter" is "Manhunter"! Wishful thinking? lol

Groff would be better as the lead in "Manhunter".

Is Groff a top or bottom?

Groff does fine. The lesbian colleague steals her scenes.

I need to see the 🐈!

I am sick of murder shows

R124 Too bad they just called it "Looking"! How uninspiring! How lame!

R125 He's a top on this show...

I'll continue to think of him as the "Manhunter". I hope there will be fanfics that will turn his character gay.

R131 Murder fangirls are already shipping Holden and Ed Kemper.

[quote] Murder fangirls are already shipping Holden and Ed Kemper.

This show has fans?

I did not like Jonathan Groff in his role as “Mindhunter.”

Groff is a pansy and can’t act.

Details about Mindhunter and Fincher style. But also a lot of other stuff for fans and for haters. Enjoy!

It was... fine. Not great, but a decent binge over a few nights close to Halloween.

All the family and girlfriend stuff was unnecessary and dull. The Atlanta Child Murders- the proposed big crime for season 2- might be interesting as John Douglas to this day disputes the guilt of Wayne Williams, or at least that he committed all of the murders. If season 2 covers the early 1980s, then maybe the Green River Killer is next. During that investigation around 1986-87 some of the profilers reached out to Bundy in their search for Gary Ridgeway.

I think Season 2 ought to examine who killed this show's potential.

It has a subreddit.

why is this show so fucking dark (in the cinematography sense)? Can hardly see what's going on.

Because Fincher's palette is black, black, dull green, brown, and black, with touch of ochre to brighten things up.

W&W, r138.

I can't wait for Season 2.

R120 Yes, I also think that Ford is mostly one-dimensional but I think it is intentionally so. He has to be since he is portrayed as obsessed with his job, like a vocation (visiting serial killers on weekends and after/before regular work). Dull suites that he wears off duty as well stress that he does not have much of life outside his cases. Only through his girlfriend (first after high school) he discovers bits of turbulent 1970s culture that challenged the establishment he is part of. Although he challenges FBI from within with his methods, he is not a hippie rebel. But still, he turns to be a very interesting character the way Groff plays him.

R116 Similarly I think that Debbie is not supposed to be sweet and nice. They surely did not want a stereotypical pair of a butch detective and a sweet girlfriend. I liked the way she was played by Hannah Gross, very subtle and nuanced. That actress is really beautiful in a not flashy way, she looks like Romy Schneider. I have not read the book, did John Douglas write about his love life? Is Debbie based on someone from the book?

Totally agree with R144.

Hasn't Jonathan Groff been butt-fucked to death yet? Why ANOTHER show?

I like this show, though it’s hit or miss. The finale was underwhelming. Groff needs to learn how to act for the camera, he needs to do A LOT less, and the gesturing and everything needs to stop. He became the most interesting when he became quite arrogant and angry in the last two episodes. Fincher cast him for a reason though, he’s obviously the outsider and I think he wanted a bit of femininity in this extremely masculine world to throw off the other performances. He does seem a little out of place but I want to support him in this role.

Thanks for the explanation of the symbolic cat upthread, I usually don’t miss that sort of thing.

The gf, BTW is a cunt, but he’s an arrogant prick, so they sort of deserve each other. Agree the FBI head was badly written and all over the map with his intentions.

[quote] he needs to do A LOT less, and the gesturing and everything needs to stop. H

People who need to do a lot less on camera (if they can act at all) are the ones overusing theater stage techniques. That's not what he does. He actually tends to underact and there is some sort of stillness to his acting. He's not what I would call a dynamic actor but has a natural presence.

R147 How can a Fincher's show possibly be hit-or-miss? He is well known for meticulously preparing each scene. Not only for episodes when he is director but also he provides detailed instructions to replacement directors who he carefully hand-picked. You may like the result or not, but it is nothing like disorganized hit-or-miss project.

Actually, I love seeing Groff playing the straight guy. When he got called a "blue flamer", he limply sighs, "oh, is that bad?" A straight man would feel challenged and offended. Even as a straight guy, he's acting so beta or even submissive. It's almost like watching a gay guy who hasn't discovered he's gay due to societal conditioning. lol There is always that background sexy anticipation that he might end up on his knees sucking off one of his hunky students.

R144, John Douglas was married with children, I think he divorced because the job was his life. Then he remarried. If you read his book Mindhunter he comes off like a guy's guy. He also had a physical breakdown like Groff's character had in the final episode. His illness was also referenced in the series Hannibal, when Will Graham developed encephalitis (per Wikipedia).

R147 Agree with your comments on Groff's over use of gestures. His acting needs to be toned down, television does not need require exaggerated movements. On the small screen and actor’s goal should be to replicate reality, a surprising obstacle to overcome for someone newly transitioning from theatre to tv, however this is not Groff's first television role so his performance should have been more natural.

He is too intensely "present" in every scene as if he were on a stage ad there was more distance between himself and the audience. The gentle subtlety he showed in Looking is not reflected in his performance in MH. Could be he is simply trying to do too much at once. He is an amazing actor when he fits the role. He struggles when the role is too distant from his own personal interests and experiences.

...does not require.........an actor's goal should be...

Sheesh. Sometimes my thumbs get in the way of using proper grammer.

[quote] Sheesh. Sometimes my thumbs get in the way of using proper grammer.

What got in the way of using proper spelling?

Are you kidding? Groff is terrific in this series. It also goes to show that an out gay actor who came off a graphic gay series can play a nerdish straight guy damn convincingly. Bravo to him and a great show!

"can play a nerdish straight guy damn convincingly"

Bwah ha ha ha!

Meticulously organized or not R150, it’s dramatically hit or miss. There are many times where the air goes out of the balloon either through faulty or lazy writing or constipated acting. It sags at times like all Netflix dramas and others of its ilk do. I still liked it. Calm down.

Watched the whole series, hated the murky cinematography. It was OK but I expected a lot more. Meh.

R159 I don't think it's murky... it just looks like they used a color filter to give a period look.

R160 I always suspect when they do that, it's to hide cheap set decor.

He cannot play straight.

It’s really quite laughable that he thinks he’s pulling it off.

Totally unconvincing.

It kills DL that an out gay actor is playing a sexually active hetero on a hit show.

R162 It's precisely because he's essentially playing a gay man awkwardly going through the motion as a straight man that makes it fun to watch. Holden is advocating a more sensitive and thoughtful viewpoint on crimes, so in this way, his character is out of step with the hard-boiled macho FBI/police world around him. This conflict is not unlike being a gay misfit in a straight world.

R158 Could you give examples?

I grow tired of pointing out all the ways this series fails dramatically. Take the 3rd guy added to the investigative team. He's brought in over the team's preference, they even wonder if he's going to be a spy for the management. Then, the story does nothing with him. They could have shown conflicting agendas, jealousy or ambition that would later explain the betrayal of sending the tape to the Internal affairs panel, but no, it all just happens without supporting motivations. Lazy writing.

R166 You are too tired to just paste links?

Not all people are motivated by jealousy, ambition or hatred, you know. So the third guy Gregg, that their boss added to the team, is someone who obeys the authority. At first that is Holden and Gregg does as he is told. But when the thing escalates into inquiery, there are other authorities with the opposite attitude (dr Carr, FBI boss). He also witnessed Holden failure to impose authority to the school principle. And since Gregg is devoted Christian he has the highest authority that says "don't lie" - that was exactly what Gregg said on their emergency meeting, smth "I was lying to FBI, I cannot lie". So out of fear and in order to do the right thing he sends the tape. Not a stereotypical motivation. Maybe lazy reading.

[quote]I grow tired of pointing out all the ways this series fails dramatically.

Go ahead and take a nap then r166.

Greg added drama but it was so predictable and manufactured that his storyline involving internal affairs (or whatever the the FBI equivilant is) was just sort of needless. The black character they interviewed was far more dynamic and interesting in his small bit of screen time than the entire Greg sideplot.

Damn. It's obvious, gay actors should stay in the closet. Btv, this is the only place where Groff's sexuality and his ability to play straight man is discussed.

R169 Agree - It is an overused plot - guy hired for the firm/team/unit s an inside man, feeds higher-ups info needed to lambast one of the primary characters. Sometimes it can be to the show's great benefit. The character, writing and plot execution in this instance were not compelling enough to added to the show.

I still like the show, just not everything about it.

[quote] Are you kidding? Groff is terrific in this series. It also goes to show that an out gay actor who came off a graphic gay series can play a nerdish straight guy damn convincingly. Bravo to him and a great show!

Hey, I didn't know Groff's agent posted here.

Those who read the book (R152 ...): does Douglas mention this tape-inquiry affair? I wonder if "the plot" really happened and if Gregg character is based on a real guy.

[quote]It also goes to show that an out gay actor who came off a graphic gay series can play a nerdish straight guy damn convincingly.

Oh my sides!

FLAMES FROM SPACE, PEOPLE!!!

Get new heroes.

I just started watching and I'm curious if the guy they keep showing with glasses and brown hair is supposed to be the BTK Killer. He was in a house as an ADT guy and he was scoping it out.

He is, R176.

LOL!

R173, the serial killer portions of the show are straight from the book, but the other characters are fictional.

I finished watching the first season today and I’m very impressed. This is easily in the same league as The Leftovers and Westworld (and I love both of those). I’m thrilled to see Groff in this role, by the way. I’ve always liked him.

This is truly a great series. I binge watched it in a weekend. It is extremely well done. The other characters are not entirely fictional as I read they are based on real people at least in part.

It's a great show.

Found myself not liking Groff's character towards the end. Also no repercussions for the one worker who disobeyed and sent the tape...didn't think that was realistic.

R182, Groff’s character is supposed to grow more unlikeable.

It's so slow. I was bored until I found out that the killers are based on real people.

My favorite thing is people who spend their time ranting on message boards about how they don't have the time to waste watching shitty TV shows... and yet here they are, wasting their time on that show

The show may be boring but Groff is so fuckable in every annoying scene!!!

I've watched the first 3..not bad. But Groff doesn't come off as straight in any way.

Loved the show, but agree that the gf is a terribly weak actress and distractingly odd looking (her creepy child's body, for starters), and that Groff isn't pulling off straight at all. The dr. Everyone else is fantastic though.

Agree R188. I find myself tuning out for all the awkward gf scenes. She is terrible and they have zero chemistry. The show grinds to a halt when it's not about the serial killers and crime solving. Reminds me of all the boring family scenes in Breaking Bad compared to the roller coaster craziness of the drug dealing underworld.

[quote] My favorite thing is people who spend their time ranting on message boards about how they don't have the time to waste watching shitty TV shows... and yet here they are, wasting their time on that show

Awww, you're so pressed, aren't you. Except one person posted that and there are dozens of others who haven't. The one thing they all have in common- The think the show SUCKS.

I don't think the show sucks.

[quote] I don't think the show sucks.

Good for you, hon. Did I say everyone?

I don't think it sucks either.

The guy with the moustache and glasses is Edmund Kemper. He never should have been allowed in society after he killed his grandparents.

Is there a way to watch it if you don't have Netflix?

A message board for people who like true crime.

I never respond to anyone who calls me "hon".

I LOVE this! I think it's very well done and credible. I was skeptical about Groff playing the agent and a straight one at that before I started watching but I got into it really fast. I think he's perfect for the role of an FBI driven nerd. He has that nerdish quality about him anyway. His character is driven by curiosity and real attempts to "understand" the monsters they are dealing with.

As far as the relationship between Groff. and his g/f not being credible, I actually think she is the problem and not him. I can't decide even now if the problem is the actress or the character she's playing because I've never seen that actress before. She (or the writers try to make her) tries to be too many things at the same time - an intellectual, a hippie., a feminist, a sexy woman, a serious academic who for whatever reason is infatuated with an FBI nerd. There's something stiff about her, emotionless, She's just reading her lines. I think she's bad casting because the rest are fine.

[quote] I never respond to anyone who calls me "hon".

Mission accomplished then.

Just finished the fifth episode. Most definitely not an 'all at once' binging show for me. But I'll finish it, eventually.

Is the series intro guy the BTK killer ?? Not all that familiar with that case, but that is who I am assuming it is. Weird to use that case though, because if I recall correctly, it tool like 25 years to solve it.

No problems with either of the leads, but the girlfriend and the autistic kid backgrounds break my interest in the show.

It is BTK, r199. The actor is credited as "ADT Serviceman" (which Dennis Rader was), his scenes take place in Kansas, and the drawings he's shown burning are duplicates of those drawn by Rader in prison.

I think they're just setting up BTK as the case that haunts John Douglas throughout his career, which I suppose will be used next season to illustrate the changes in Douglas as goes deeper and deeper down the rabbit hole. Despite only contributing one of the early profiles, he wrote a very personal book about the case and came across as bitter that it was solved without his ongoing involvement.

Groff is yum.

Groff was hot in the scene where his girlfriend is wearing the high heels. But it's still funny to laugh about him not being able to get it up knowing he's gay.

I like Jonathan’s fun-sized penis.

So masc, y'all!

I just finished Season 1. Can't wait for 2. The lead is getting more and more unlikable as the show goes on and I could tell almost from the get go that his gf was not as into him as he was into her. She comes across as a cold fish.

Only on ep 2, but getting a bit of an X-Files vibe with mismatched FBI partners and one obsessed with the "truth" about serial killers. Don't know what the gf is there for except as hetero fangirl bait... now they can fantasize about Groff going down on them. lol

Seems like all Netflix has right now for new stuff is crime dramas. I'm looking for another show to binge on. What should I watch next? Kind of getting sick of drama/suspense/crime series with brilliant criminals and bumbling "keystone cop" detectives who take several seasons to catch a killer who is right under their noses..

Try W1A r207. All 3 season are available.

R206 With Groff, it always come back to his performance while having sex with another character. He is known more for those moments than the rest of his performance.

R209, you mean his lovely ass?

Groff is a horrible actor.

Who does he think he’s kidding?

R209 He's a sex symbol!!!!

Groff is handsome!

I really liked the show - I love the genre in general and thought this was a really well written piece. Saying that though I found Groff's performance a bit underwhelming - it's seems he found a way to crack the character at the end of the series. I do agree that the actress playing his girlfriend was not good either - from the moment they met it was looking doom, from her acting you could tell her character did not give a fuck about the guy at all so they whole relationship seemed forced, like they were together on a desert island and there was nobody else they could sleep with.

Another 'one that got away' is the Green River Killer. Also took at least 20 years.

I think the new addition to the team is cute, but his sanctimonious mailing of the tape in pissed me off. There really is no one to like in this.

I found Anna Torv's character somehow likeable. Groff is really affected by his onscreen girlfriend, she should be killed off. Will be checking out season 2 for sure. Love Groff, but the real discovery is Holt. My god is he hot! And that voice... he should be a little naked like Groff next season. The subject matter is compelling. And I found it quite well developed. Some of you discuss it as of you're big tv critics. Get a f*cking grip. If you don't enjoy it just quit watching.

I like Anna Torv’s character at first, but she became as full of herself as Griffin became. By the end, the most likable character on it was Ed Kemper, the serial killer, which may have been deliberate. But I thought Groff was excellent, especially playing something so totally different from his prior parts. There’s one sc3ne in the final episode, when he’s walking down the hall to Kemper’s hospital room, where he almost looks like he’s become a nutcase himself. And the final few minutes were stunning (won’t say what)

I do think it’s weird that BTK seems to be being set up when he wasn’t caught till 2005, when Groff’s character would be in his 50s.

I really liked the BTK scenes. It makes you aware that even while serial murder cases are being solved and killers are getting locked up, there are always others out there roaming free, honing their craft and methodically going about the business of killing.

Frau here (sorry), but someone asked what hetero women think about Groff's performance. For what it's worth, I think he's totally believable, totally hot in sex scenes. Performance all around great. Liked this more with each episode. The girlfriend doesn't seem to be very well-written.

R220 Does knowing Groff is gay make you look for "gayness" in his performance at all? It seems gay men certainly like to nitpick when they see a gay actor play a straight role.

He flames from space, r221.

[quote]For what it's worth, I think he's totally believable, totally hot in sex scenes.

Uh, no he isn't.

Groff plays straight so convincingly!

His chemistry with women is palpable!

I totally believed that he goes nuts eating out women.

He oozes heterosexuality.

He’s an actor’s actor!

The episode on the fat trans-sexual killer (Burdo?) was so wildly politically correct (cross-dressing is normal! It doesn't lead to violent behavior! There have been trans-sexuals in every culture!) it could have could have been written in 2017!

This show sucks balls.

R228 It sucks everything but balls. I like it. It's x-files with serial killers.

It would have been a good twist if they had made Groff's character gay. Or bi and closeted.

So do we think they jump forward a few months/years when season 2 starts or pick up from where it left off? I mean they will have to address Holden's breakdown at some point.

The girlfriend was horribly written and barely opened her mouth when she spoke.

I fast forwarded every scene with Groff and the girlfriend

Im on the 5th episode.

The actor playing Edmund Kemper gives the best performance of the show. So non chalant & chilling at the same time.

The actress who plays the girlfriend is so inexplicably bad that she must be connected to the show in some other way. Is she David Fincher's mistress? Does she date a producer? There has got to be an explanation for why she is in this show, and it is not her acting ability.

I think it would be an interesting plot twist if the offending GF got kidnapped and killed off by a serial killer. Win-Win.

R235 I actually thought this would happen. And she was so annoying that I wish it had

R234 Apparently, she is the daughter of a famous Canadian actor and/or director.

LOL @ R226. That's obviously a gross exaggeration, but there have been a few scenes where he 'does' move like that just a little bit. Like he's walking slightly on his toes or something. It's an immediate tell.

I thing the guy playing Kemper is doing a great job. He's bookish, quiet, respectful and polite but, as we saw, can turn into a menacing hulk in a split second. I remember reading that Kemper was a model prisoner.

Im getting a hint of Holden turning into a criminal. Like Pacino did in Cruising.

The actress playing the GF is Hannah Gross, her father is Paul Gross, a well-known Canadian actor.

This thread is mislabeled, it should be "Failed DL Actor Queebs Deride Successful Actor's New Show". Jesus, calm down, Qwritics.

It's a little early to be drinking, R241, hmmm?

R242, or just really late. 😆

Anna Torv gave an interview to TVLine about the cat in the cubby metaphor. She thought that the unseen cat represented the faceless victims of serial killers. She mentioned this to Fincher who said that wasn't it at all. There is actually a sociopathic kid living at her apartment building who is killing pets. It's meant to be taken that literally.

Canadians can’t Act, and that is just reality.

In the third episode, the capture of the old lady killer was so contrived and that cop party afterward was cringe-worthy. There's really not much layer or real conflict to the story-telling. It's just the universe or rather pretty lady professor pushing Holden in his mission to study and expose the serial (I mean, sequence) killer phenomenon. The only standout scene is Kemper causing the audience to feel the dread of being in the same room as a killer even as Holden and Bill made nice to befriend him. It seems the GF is just there for the sex scenes or domestic scenes, so in small doses especially when with a half naked Groff walking around, she's hardly noticeable.

Groff's butt is so fat and meaty.

I was really looking forward to this and made it through the whole first season....I thought it was....slow. Real slow. Pretty sure I won't be back for more.

Groff on Colbert

My thougs- Groff has a beautiful and jerk off worthy ass. I did t like him in this role at first- he a tually reminded me of his character in Looking ina lot of ways. While I think he was miscast he was overall fine and got better. His (male) parter is the definition of daddy! Grof's gf was useless and u likeable but she was more of an instrument to show his character's evolution. Glad to see Groff is getting high profile work.

^^^autocorrect is a bitch!

Just starting to watch this... excited.

R252 The first 3 episodes were somewhat exciting/suspenseful but 4 and 5 really dragged... the storytelling was so procedure that it was as exciting as reading a newspaper article. I have put this show on the backburner while I catch up on other shows.

R253 hmmm thanks for feedback.

R254 But your taste may be different from mine, so binge away!

Just finished the full season. I have to say, I found it a thoroughly enjoyable slow burn. Yes, it's VERY talky, but once you accept that talkiness it really starts to work. After the first episode, I thought Groff had been miscast, but the way the blank slate of his character developed was fascinating. This might be a bit reductive, but I wonder if we're seeing Groff's Holden emerge as having... sociopathic tendencies? Or, even, somewhere on the autism spectrum?

I don't think Holden is sociopathic. On the autism spectrum, perhaps.

I was ultimately disappointed. I realized several episodes in that there was nobody in these characters who is a good person, really. Plus, the way they sell it - there's really no crime solving involved, or not much, anyway. It's interesting that they're setting up the BTK, but I wonder how much they can actually do with him, since he wasn't caught till 2005 - when Groff's character would be well into his 50s. Maybe he'll be the "one that got away" if they deal with him as more than just a side issue.

You can literally watch an episode of Mindhunter to help you fall asleep.

After watching the show i got the original book by John E. Douglas and Mark Olshaker, as an audiobook. It is fascinating. In one story John Douglas describes the trial of Wayne Bertram Williams. When the prosecution asked for his assistance he told them they were losing the jury and that they needed to bring out the other side of williams. the fbis evidence was solid but technical and williams was controlled and soft spoken on the stand. Based on the profile which idenyified williams as a control freak, he told the prosecutor to move close to williams and then touch him on the arm before the defense could object and softly ,"Wayne, what was it like when you killed that boy? Did you panic, Wayne?' " When questioned williams answered no and then was so pissed he messed up he flew into a rage. Douglas said the jurors jaws dropped as they saw this dark side appear removing any doubt about whether he was capable of the crimes.

bump

The BTK killer looks like Groff. I think they put wig, mustache, glasses, hat, etc on him.

My partner loved .Mindhunters.

I thought it was boring as fuck

So what was wayne bertram williams profile? repressed gay man? insecurity? narcissim? Did he have any if the sign such as animal killing and bed wetting?

Forgot about him

Never heard of him before, R263. He doesn't sound very... meticulous. The Wiki article doesn't mention much about motivation or offer a psychological profile of him. Hmmm

On a side note, how much of a sexy daddy is Holt McCallany?? He's definitely one of those guys who's aged into his looks.

I want to suck off Holt McCallany in gym shower

I think there's a lot of negativity here towards this series because of Groff. I think he's perfect for the role and I really liked this series. Groff has that look of naivety and earnestness perfect for a new idealistic FBI agent. His acting during those episodes of his downward spiral into the criminal mind was somewhat lacking but he made up for it in the end in his scenes with Kemper.

I thought the the actress who portrayed the girlfriend was terrible. How in the world did she get this role? (did she perform a service on Fincher?) I couldn't believe their chemistry, not because of Groff (IMO he's cute and adorable) but this actress. She spoke in a horrible monotone throughout their scenes.

Renewed for another season!

The actress is daughter of Canadian hottie Paul Gross.

I loved Groff in this and I didn't get a gay vibe from him at all (although I'm a straight woman so take that with a grain of salt). I will say that I find it virtually impossible to imagine Kevin Spacey as straight in any role.

In any event, the only times I thought Groff seemed feminine were when he walked or they showed his whole body moving. His hands move in a very femmy way. Very noticeable in the finale episode.

Paul Gross needs to give his daughter acting lessons.

R272 How? He wasn't much of an actor himself. He was just very good looking.

The daughter doesn't even have that. She looks like a stick bug.

The cinematography was so fucking dark. Couldn't see anything going on.

The thing that bothered me most was the humongous font. Creepy.

[quote]The thing that bothered me most was the humongous font. Creepy.

Our thoughts and prayers are with you r276.

Netflix just announced that the show has been renewed for season 2.

I guess I have no taste, because I was perfectly fine with the actress who played Groff's GF. I thought her deadpan vibe actually paired well with Groff's (potentially autistic'ish) performance.

R279 I am find with her as well... most of the time, she's just a sounding board for him anyway. Personality wise, he's the yin to her yang.

Really enjoyed the last episode, where it seemed like everyone was ganging up on Holden, who himself was being an uppity bitch about his work success. That last Holden and Kemper scene was tense and suspenseful. I thought Groff was especially good in that scene.

R227 yes Jerry Brudos was trans or something, and I did not watch the episode but Ann Rule wrote a great book about him called lust killer.

R263 not all sociopaths/psychopaths have those early warning signs.

Just starting this. Third episode in and I’m starting to like it. Can’t wait to see the development of the Dennis Raider (BTK) story line.

Kemper is an anomaly, even in the category of serial killers.

I didn't like the first episode, but the second and third episode got me hooked. Glad I finally got around to watching this.

To me I could still tell Groff was gay, but I wonder if I am biased since. I notice my straight friend I am watching it with doesn't seem to think anything is off there.

**** SPOILER FOR ANYONE WHO HASN'T FINISHED SEASON 1 BELOW ****

So... do we think Fincher & co were suggesting that Groff's character was on the sprectrum?

"Holt McCallany" is of course a stage name. It belongs somewhat in the "Chest Rockwell"/"Slab Bulkhead" category. of stage names, unfortunately But I really like the actor (even beyond the fact that he is a hot daddy).

I am really mystified by where they will go with the BTK subplot, since Dennis Rader mostly went hidden after 1977, with only 3 more murders over the next fourteen years (in 1985, 1986, and 1991), and then none until he started sending letters again @2004 and got caught.

I did read the show's runners say the next season will be about the Atlanta Child Murders, which makes sense--that was the first time I ever heard the term "serial killer. "that case was huge in the news when it happened: Frank Sinatra and Sammy Davis, Jr. got involved in publicizing it , and Glades Knight and the Pips performed a song in honor of the children. It's been kind of forgotten now, but it was huge deal in 1979-1981.

I think Jonathan Groff's performance is grossly underestimated here. He believably makes the transition in the first season from a gee-whiz kid with a hidden dark side to a big-headed maverick know-it-all whose world comes crashing down because if bad choices he made.

Is this TV show any good? I have read mixed reviews, such as how when the serial killers are not being interviewed/interrogated that it's extremely boring, and goes into way too much of the personal lives of the law enforcement officials/FBI agents.

I stopped watching the wire after two seasons for the same reason, since I did not like how it focused way too much on the police and their personal lives instead of the drug dealers.

I think it depends on the viewer, R290. Some people find it very boring, but I watched the whole season on a day off from work.

The response has been very mixed so you might as well give it a shot yourself.

It's a good show. Actually, as someone else upthread said, the stuff about the main characters became actually more interesting for me than the stuff about the serial killers (which originally brought me in). Almost all the stuff about the serial killings is discussed well after the fact, so it's not as gross as it may be, although all throughout the season you see Dennis "BTK" Rader in the Wichita suburbs preparing for his killings (including practicing tying nautical knots and scoping out houses for his home security job, with no clear end result.

The acting by the leads is really good, and they have what I thought were particularly good performances by the 3 major killers the FBI team interviews: Ed Kemper, "The Co-Ed Killer"; Jerry Brudos, "The Shoe Fetish Slayer"; and Richard Speck. And David Fincher directs some of the episodes.

R290, big mistake with “The Wire”. Though I understand your thoughts and objections, give it another shot.

I watched The Wire as though I was reading a book series. It worked. Excellent writing. I was quite impressed. That’s not easy to do with me.

Just my opinion, everyone is different.

I enjoyed Mindhunter. Looking forward to the next season. I’m OK with slow, detailed, and methodical. Stories are told by different people, in different ways.

I love Groff. He was fantastic in “Looking “, made it fun to watch, and I’m enjoying him as a bright eyed and bushy tailed FBI agent in this “doggy dog” world of his. Lol!

Congrats to Cameron Britton who just scored an Emmy nomination for Ed Kemper.

When does season 2 start?

Anyone?

Apparently they only just finished filming season 2 so maybe the summer? 8 episodes