Madonna "Live To Tell" original demo version

What a fascinating new insight about Madonna, OP. Instruct us further!

She's always been honest about her vocal limitations, but she's had plenty of vocal training since her first debut, and her voice has gotten stronger and her range has expanded. Her voice is sort of surprisingly in 'Rescue Me'.

Love her and loved the movie.

That was good casting for father and son. They were both very handsome at that time.

She sounds tone deaf in most of this recording. That said, there was an appealing scrappy, raw quality in the finished recordings of this era (especially the likes of Pap Don't Preach and Rescue Me). Her voice is much less appealing nowadays. It's sort of strange - one would think they could make her sound better more easily now tgan back then.

Autotune = 1998

Even though her voice is thin, I like this version better than the final one. It has a nice stripped down quality that makes the final version seem almost overproduced. And I like the ending.

OP, I like the way she sounds here.

But not the way she looks

[quote] She sounds tone deaf in most of this recording.

true, R5 it's amazing what her producers did to fix up her vocals in the final version. She has flat moments in that version too, but this is much worse vocally

Niles Rodgers writes in his autobiography about how hard they had work on her vocals. Take after take after take. Ostensibly it was because Madonna was determined to sing in a higher register to match the songwriter demos (Material Girl etc). She was pretty savvy about "pop" keys, though her voice suited singing alto more. No doubt, comping her vocals was also necessary to get most of the finished vocal onkey, regardless if she was singing in her natural register or not.

Madonna is a treasure and a legend..

R11 that makes sense. I hate the songs in which she sounds like she's on helium though

Is Live to Tell an example of her singing in alto?

R14 it's an example of her imitating a goat

A goat singing alto?

Yes, "Live To Tell" is sung in an alto.

Who does the harmony backing vocals on that song? Also Madonna? I love those parts.

R17 it sounds like a combo. Some parts you can hear the producers just layered her voice multiple times. In other parts you can hear someone singing a very high note that Madonna definitely can't reach. So either 1-2 backing singers were used in a few parts of the song or the producers had the technology back then to alter her voice super high for backing vocals.

I can't believe her singing is that bad, she sounds like someone who has no vocal training at all.

All they could have done was speed up a different reel of tape, but yes, they could have done that.

But that seems unlikely, just to perpetuate the idea that Madonna could sing out of her range.

At that point she hadn't had any I don't think r19. Even though she got really serious about vocal training she still struggles to sing on key. She did improve her voice by quite a lot.

If you can become a billionaire singing, then you're doing okay.

I don't think she ever got serious. Yes, Evita had an effect. But if she really got serious, she wouldn't sound so shitty live. She never mastered a supported sound.

Live to Tell is all Madonna. No other vocalists. Now what they had to do to get usable vocals in both backing and lead, ask Pat Leonard.

Siedah Garrett sings on a lot of the True Blue album.

When the Madonna vs. Gaga war was in full swing, I wish this had been around to really show the superior musician.

Thank you, R25. I thought it was all her. It's one of a handful of her songs and I actually like.

Who's the superior musician, Marni Nixon?

The other two songs on that album with no other vocalists are "Jimmy Jimmy" and "Open Your Heart".

She was NEVER a good singer. Not way back when and not now. Mediocre, at best. God, everybody knows that except for Madgebots!

And her acting!

I wonder how many of her other original demos are floating around online. I'd love to hear what the songs really sounded like before they padded and embedded her voice

Half of Marilyn's song there is dubbed - NOT her voice. Stupid ass.

She's NOT a great singer but I love this song. It brings back Great memories from Spring/Summer of '86.

She doesn't need to be a great singer and has never pretended to be. She's passable. So what?

It's not merely that she has a limited instrument--and not much of an ear, which is half of singing, IMHO--it's that she sounds so BORED most of the time in her recordings.

Her cover of "Fever" in the TV clip is pretty awful, but at least she commits and connects (to a degree) with the material.

"... other parts you can hear someone singing a very high note that Madonna definitely can't reach."

Yes she can.

Pat Leonard on writing ("Live To Tell") with Madonna.

R38 As a big fan, it always seems to me that Pat is very guarded in interviews talking about Madonna and her involvement in their work together, like he's afraid to admit how little she actually did. It seems hard to believe they completed songs in two hours each. It is much more likely he brought in mostly finished demos, and she made slight changes or modifications (to receive producer/songwriter credits).

Like I said, I am a fan, but I've been disappointed to learn some of her biggest hits like Ray of Light, Don't Tell Me she only changed a few words. I always wonder if it was that way with Patrick Leonard and Steven Bray, as well.

I think she actually is a very talented PRODUCER. She knows had to take a raw product and turn it into a hit. She should promote herself as one more versus trying to pass herself off as a musician or a songwriter.

This sounds like just one of the original vocal tracks. Usually they layer multiple vocal tracks on (and for Madonna a few extra, plus the reverb) on the main vocal, then they also add the background vocals. That's why so many singers sound underwhelming live-- no one can sing 3 parts.

So I bet a remixer or someone got a hold of one of the tracks and released it. It sounds pretty close to the original recording vocal wise. I doubt this is one take though. I've never heard Madonna stay on key that long, ever. I love Madonna (well, I'm ignoring everything post-Confessions) but she's not a great vocalist, especially at that time.

Oh yeah, R40, there's no reason whatsoever to think this is all one take. Vocal takes for songs generally aren't, seriously. Even among people with integrity. It's not a big deal. The only ones who do it all in one take are the virtuosic, "huge" singers.

R39, I don't think Madonna is a producer, let alone a good one. I don't see her making decisions about arrangement and mixing, which is all a producer does.

Pat Leonard made it sound like she wrote all the words for "Live To Tell". I'd like to think that's true, because I want to like *something* about her. I just have no idea how talented she is or was on her own as a lyricist. I don't know if there's ever been any conclusive proof that she works all on her own on her lyrics, but then I'm not the biggest fan so I don't know everything there is to know.

It's a great song, in my opinion, so it doesn't really matter who did what or how many takes it took.

R38 - Pat Leonard is basically saying, without saying it, that he wrote the whole track except maybe lyrics and some vocal flourishes that wouldn't get a songwriting credit for a non=megastar.

Agreed R41. We can argue who wrote what, but the combination of the song + vocalist was very good. As far as giving songwriting credit-- sometimes you gotta pay money to make even more money. Same song with a B List singer and a full songwriting credit is worth much, much less.

It sounds like he's saying she wrote the vocal melody and lyrics. He does say that the backbone of the vocal melody was already there in his piano lines—whether it was specific notes, or notes implied by the chords—and then there were parts that she came up with that weren't already there in the piano part.

If that's what she did—vocal melody and all the lyrics—yes, it definitely means a 50/50 split of songwriting credit. Except I think there was a third guy who got in on the writing of this song...

R41 I consider her a producer in the fact that she is very involved with every aspect of creating the song in the studio. Even Nile Rodgers said that he did things the way she wanted and that she really should have had a producer credit.

[quote]She's always been honest about her vocal limitations, but she's had plenty of vocal training since her first debut, and her voice has gotten stronger and her range has expanded.

Yes, that third note has made all the difference.

R45, well, okay then—I want to believe that's true. I just wonder specifically what it was she wanted (I'm assuming we're talking about the Like A Virgin album), how she expressed it, and how it was facilitated. Just out of curiosity. It'd be interesting to hear.

On the last album, one of the producers talked about how he'd send Madonna stuff and she'd send it back with notes. Change this, lengthen that etc. Her main skill seems to be curation.

Someone posted a version of Express Yourself not long ago on YT and it's quite different. Some say it's a demo, others fan made but the vocals must be from stems.

If Madge ever were dropped on a desert island and wrote an album-worth of new songs, with no collaborators...

Dear god, can you imagine what she'd write about? Ungrateful children? Resentful household staff? Why don't str8 men find me hot anymore?

The demos for het last album are out there. Multiple ones. You could listen to them and get an impression of the back and forth of reaching the definitive mix/arrangement.

R48 yeah it was more stuff like that, not that she is an actual musician.

R47 it was an old interview with Nile. I think he said she wanted him to do something and he said he already did that with Chic and he said I want you to do again. And that he did things the way she wanted even if he didn't agree with them. Also, William Orbit said she would be a first rate producer in her own right.

Well, she's written about ungrateful husbands...

Nile Rodgers said he pushed for Material Girl to be the lead single. But Madonna explained why Like a Virgin needed to be the lead - its subject matter was more striking, attention grabbing, controversial etc. He said she was right.

R52, wouldn't it be neat if she learned how to actually produce on her own? She'd just have to partner with a recording engineer to make it happen, but then she could do all the arranging herself, and call the shots when it came to mixing, even if she needed an assistant.

I'd be interested in hearing that, despite not being familiar with her stuff post-1994. The collaborations with the hot hitmakers of the moment aren't interesting to me because I can't stand contemporary pop sounds. There's no indication that she'd do anything different, but it'd be, uh, "neat" to hear regardless.

That's weird, R54, because it's usually the record label that makes those decisions. At that point it's all about marketing—not really something either the producer OR the artist have much say in.

A lot of her lyrics are pretty bad so I don't know why people question whether or not she wrote them.

Question for the older gays. Did people really say she couldn't sing at the beginning of her career? I watched some clips of her Virgin Tour and think she sounded fine. Every time I've heard her live in the past 20 years she's sounded bad, very forced. On that tour she sounded relaxed like singing was more natural to her than it become not long after that.

Sandra Bernhard tells a story about (back when they were friends, 25+ years ago....) dragging Madge to see the genius singer/songwriter Laura Nyro in concert at a small venue. It was around the time of Nyro's final album--she died of ovarian cancer in 1997--but she was still in fine voice and performed "Stoned Soul Picnic," "Eli's Comin'" and many of her legendary songs.

Bernhard was enthralled. Madonna pulled at her sleeve early on, though, and asked, "Sandy? I don't get it. She's just gonna sit there at the piano all night.... and SING?"

R57 we figure she probably wrote I love new York and a lot of her weaker album tracks. I would like to know how much of live to tell and like a prayer she actually wrote.

R56 that was what was so impressive about Madonna. She took control of her career from the beginning when it was almost unheard of for a female singer. She was the one who picked Nile to work with, for instance. And Reggie Lucas on her first album. When she wasn't satisfied with the way he did some of her songs, she had them redone by another producer.

Thanks R49 - I just listened to it. Not bad or anything, mostly on key, just not retouched. Donna and Niki carried the high notes in the verses. They really knew how to work together.

Goes to show you there's a lot more to being a successful singer than vocal talent. Most people that do a good karaoke could sing at this level, but her presentation and performance makes the difference.

R57 they sure did say that back in the day.

I think Reggie Lucas was assigned to her. I think he disappeared once the alotted budget had been spent. Then Jellybean came in to remix. I think he put some live drums on some of the tracks that had none.

Late DJ Mark Kamins is credited with producing Everybody. It wouldn't surprise me if that was a courtesy credit and that Madonna was the producer, or at least co-

I never really thought she couldn't sing, largely because of a lot of singers that followed in her footsteps in the 80s probably couldn't either. Plus if the studio tricks are true, that probably helps.

It became much more obvious once Whitney, Mariah, Celine took over in the 90s

Isn't she mostly banging a tambourine around for the Virgin Tour? I imagine there were fewer dates than later tours. She may have been able to preserve her voice a bit better.

The vocals that annoy me more are some of the Erotica era ones. Bad Girl ( a song I like a lot) and Rain jump to mind.

Paula Abdul was the nadir of that era in terms of the ratio of commercial success to vocal talent.

R63 she made a demo with Steven Bray that I think is much better.

She did actually start out playing instruments. She played drums in bands, she even plays rhythmic guitar on a demo and Steve Bray says she could have had a career at it. (Laugh to Keep From Crying)

She wasn't good enough to play on her first album and then Like a virgin was so massively successful she could then hire the best musicians in the world. Who knows if she would have stuck with it?

So it's possible she even made that demo. She talked about having synthesizers stacked on top of each other in an apartment, where someone came in and stole them from her.

You can hear her Chrissie Hynde/Patti Smith inspiration on "Laugh to Keep from Crying" in 1980

Madonna was the Britney for the 80s.

She wrote most of her first album. Sole songwriting credit. Granted, she didn't write "Borderline" or "Holiday"...and she had years to write those songs for her debut...but she still wrote them. (And also "Gambler" which is one of my faves.)

She's not a great singer, but let's not talk about studio trickery as if it existed to the extent that it does now. There was no Autotune.

All a person could do is do take after take until they nailed it, and then the mixer adds reverb or delay or other vocal tracks on top of it.

What you're hearing on those 80s-early 90s recordings is Madonna's voice, not a computer.

Oh, please. Let's not overstate Madge's importance as some feminist icon in pop history.

Barbra Streisand and Dusty Springfield were both notoriously difficult/challenging in the recording studio: doing endless takes, feuding with/firing producers, etc. They both also had exceptional noses for good material and exacting ears for the right sound.

In a sexist industry, Madge was hardly the first female singer to "take charge of her own career." Peggy Lee took creative charge of her own long profitable career and remained rather well-liked in the process.

No one in this thread made any such claims about Madonna, R73. That's not what this thread is about.

Sure, there might be a poster or two here who seemed to want to say those things, but they didn't.

Are Streisand and Peggy Lee singles artists? Streisand was hit n miss on Top 40 until Stoney End, no? And wasn't Richard Perry responsible for not only production but persuading Streisand to even record it? Madonna had a nose for a hit that Streisand didn't. Dusty is certainly comparable. She was very tuned into "now" and "future" sounds.

The fact that Madonna has not been able to pierce the Zeitgeist in nearly two decades suggests that much of what we had previously attributed to acumen in fact boiled down to luck and timing.

Most people who make it big in music in their twenties and thirties do not continue to capture the Zeitgeist in their later decades.

That's true even for Paul McCartney.

20 years of luck and timing? Hardly. I would say that her ability to pick the right mix has dipped big time. Confessions singles aside, I prefer the remixes of the 21st century singles I like (there are quite a few that can't be rescued by any mix, of course). I don't think she's hungry any more - maybe for directing, but she seems to have as much promise there as she's shown as an actor.

You can't forget the context of Madonna's early years. Punk/Post Punk and the early hip-hop scene had a "do it yourself" vibe. So people's lack of a great talent was hardly a hinderance. Madge came along right at the very moment that people with suspect skills (Morrisey for instance) were doing well. And I recall reading an interview pehaps with Peter Leonard relaying that Madonna insisted upon a synth bass as opposed to an electric guitar type bass. I think that choice showed she was very much engaged in the details of her music even if she did not play much of it.

I wish the horns on Express Yourself were real. I grew up with the Immaculate Collection but I've come to favour the horns.

Either way it's a beautiful and haunting ballad. One of the best of the 80's.

Honestly don't think it sounds very different from the original. They cleaned of some of the held notes at the end of words/phrases where she goes flat, but it's mostly the same.

OK...so I pulled out my old Billboard Book of Number One Hits. Here's some of what Patrick Leonard had to say:

"She wrote the lyrics -- she jut wrote them on the spot, which is what we always do. I don't think we've ever taken more than three hours to complete a song from start to finish. She sang it on the demo only once and left with the cassette....We recut the song but we used the vocal. She only sang it once and that was the vocal we used because it was so innocent and shy. She had a legal pad in her hand and...you can hear the paper. It's as raw as raw can be and that's part of what gave it all its charm."

It also mentions that when she sang the song at a Madison Square benefit concert to raise money for AIDS research, she dedicated it to her friend, artist Michael Burgoyne.

It wasn't pretty when she belted in the girlie high voice. Other than that I could deal with her singing. She always had a kind of voodoo spell effect to make everything work. I remember I would listen back 1 or 2 albums when there was a new on out and remark, wow, she can't really sing. But when each new song WAS new and fresh it would sound fine.

He's saying the vocal take on the demo is what they used on the finished version??!

Just watched At Close Range. WHAT A MASTERPIECE for a total bummer.... Love the song. Oh, but Madge's live singing... Talk about a bummer.

It is a gorgeous song, her best ballad IMHO

Maybe Madonna doesn't give a stinking shit what the OP thinks.

Her look in that video (styled hair and form-fitting but still classy dress) would work today and would be so much more dignified than what she wears now.

R86 definitely not her best vocal performance..she was definitely hoarse and she is not classically trained, she is singing from her throat not her diaphragm. I believe she eventually corrected that. However, the demo is not bad at all.

She was never a good singer.

YouTube Belinda Carlisle's "Waiting For a Star to Fall" demo if you dare.