What do you all think of "Carousel" (Rodgers and Hammerstein's)?

I don't like that shit. Would have been better with Shelley Hack.

You sat through a 3 hour musical at 8 years old?

It is one of my favorite musicals, but the message that someone can hit you hard and it not hurt at all is a bit hard to sell nowadays. Also, Julie is a wimp, even without the domestic violence. A lot of actresses have turned down the role because she is so passive. It has been pulled from a few regional theater's seasons because of complaints and/or the inability to cast the women.

My high school did a production in the 1980s. It has many great songs, but the unfortunate message about domestic violence -- that battered women should forgive their brute husbands because that's how they express their "love" -- keeps it from being staged in the 21st century.

Boring as shit. Endless book with nasty characters who love to hit their wives? Zzzz. Pass.

R5, actually, the schoolmaster's speech at the very end about not letting your parent' failures hold you back or not coasting through life on their successes is excellent.

WHET Michael Hayden?

The only good songs are If I Loved You and What's the Use of Wonderin'.

You'll never see a powerhouse Billy because men on Broadway don't sing the way the score needs and haven't for several decades. Michael Hayden was a serious error on the part of the producers (hiring a recent Juilliard actor grad that couldn't sing at all) and was a major reason the show only ran for six months. There are no John Raitts in the Broadway world now, and any attractive young baritones that have that kind of potential are lured into opera where legitimate singing is taken very seriously and acting is not required. Audra will never be better than she was in Carousel, and IMO it was the only Tony she deserved. I thought the production had some interesting moments, but I still haven't seen a production that's done it justice. It's a problematic book, and you have to have great, legit old school singers that can pull off the score.

r7 I think his face fell very quickly. Aged and wrinkled. I saw Marcus Lovett in the role when Michael was sick He was sexy as hell. WEHT him?

After all the attention of Carousel, he tried TV R8. He did a series early on that ran for two years but was canceled, and barely worked in TV or film thereafter. I saw him in a rep theater in Hartford do a Kushner adaptation called The Dybbuk in the 90s. He had a short nude scene where he displayed a nice body. It was boring, and he was carefully bland. An attractive white bread tall guy that just didn't have much going on. No there there. Musical producers didn't have much interest in him despite his Tony nom for Carousel because he just couldn't sing.

I know it is probably cheesy, but I l still like "You will Never Walk Alone." I also like the Carousel Waltz. I agree with most of the comments - some good music, but the message of a hit can be love etc. While there was some mixed messaging, I think in the end Julie was supposed to have been seen as developing some strength and being a survivor raising her daughter etc.

While not as overt with the physical abuse, I always thought My Fair Lady had a pretty abusive relationship at the core. Higgins does not even seem to have learned anything at the end when Eliza comes back (although I have heard they have softened "bring my slippers" scene in more recent adaptions).

The park bench scene early in Act I is as beautiful as anything ever written for the stage.

Then you get "Geraniums in the Winder" and a lot of sick stuff about domestic violence.

Save the park bench scene. Bury the rest of it. Yes, including the waltz and the soliloquy. In a 100 years or so, maybe they will be fresh again. But for now, they are well played out.

[quote]There are no John Raitts in the Broadway world now, and any attractive young baritones

Actually, isn't Billy a tenor? I thought the ending of Soliloquy went into the tenor range.

[quote]WHET Michael Hayden?

Younger bottoms came along. You can only get by so long on good looks and no talent.

Michael Hayden's performance was not Tony-nominated. In fact, Audra was the only actor in that production to receive a Tony nomination.

The production began previews in February 1994, opened in March 1994, and ran until January 1995.

The problem with the Lincoln Center production was Shirley Verrett. She didn't seem warm enough to play Nettie Fowler. And being from the opera world, her voice seemed too technical for Broadway music.

r16 Agreed. She was HORRIBLE in the key role of Nettie. And you are right. Hayden sounded like Kermit the Frog .

R14 i think it's considered a high baritone or "baritenor"

"She won't make a sissy out of him, Not him! not my boy! not Bill!"

No, it's a baritone role. High note is a G. Baritenor is not an actual voice type. It's usually used to describe a baritone quality that needs to have A flats and As in the Broadway world, roles in Les Mis and Saigon etc. Operatic baritones have easy A flats generally, and an A and sometimes B flat in their pockets. Broadway male singers tend to have much shorter voices, so tenors sometimes get cast in what would be considered baritone roles elsewhere. John Raitt was a baritone.

I was in a production in college and I saw the Lincoln Center version. It's been awhile and I've forgotten, but can't the domestic violence be softened? isn't it only at the end when he's a ghost and he smacks Louise because she won't take the star?

"The Vivian Beaumont Theatre" has to be the gayest theater name in history.

Only movie I've ever cried in. Of course, in the original Liliom, the daughter rejected her father, making it even sadder. Also a good French movie with Charles Boyer.

The SJWs won't allow its revival.

No, R21. It's all throughout the play.

What's the use of wond'ring If he's good or if he's bad, Or if you like the way he wears his hat? Oh, what's the use of wond'ring If he's good or if he's bad? He's your feller and you love him, That's all there is to that. Common sense may tell you That the ending will be sad, And now's the time to break and run away. But what's the use of wond'ring If the ending will be sad? He's your feller and you love him, There's nothing more to say.

There's a lot more to say about this rotten relationship, that rotten man, and the choices Julie could make that would better serve her safety. But she has no self respect when she deals with this man.

Years ago, I encountered an actor in NYC doing a club act. "Something Wonderful. The Broadway Love Songs of the 40' and 50's written by men to be sung by women, explaining how women feel about men." It perfectly describes the problem. Go look at "Something Wonderful" through that lens.

I also saw Marcus Lovett as Billy. He was fantastic. I wonder why he walked away from Broadway?

I enjoyed playing Carrie more than Julie.

[quote]I also saw Marcus Lovett as Billy. He was fantastic. I wonder why he walked away from Broadway?

I think because he gets more work in London. He also gets tons of voiceover work.

Why do people look at Carousel strangely, yet Oliver is done all over the place, even in high schools? Nancy is abused and yet she sings and reprises "As Long As He Needs Me." And she ends up dead.

R29, the reprise is about Oliver: "someone else needs me."

I am surprised that Oklahoma! is done with the drug use an all.

[R30] - The drug you refer to was merely an antihistamine. Just look at the lyrics:

Don't throw bouquets at me,

I have an allergy.

[quote]the reprise is about Oliver: "someone else needs me."

No, it's about Nancy reassuring herself that while she is concerned about Oliver, she will stay true to Bill. Look at the lyrics:

A child with no one to take his part

I'll take his part, Bill, but cross my heart

I won't betray your trust

though people say I must

My heart will stay true just

As long as Bill needs me

Yes, while Nancy makes bad choices, Bill is not meant to be viewed as a romantic lead - he is seen as a villain and does not get redeemed in the end. While Nancy is delusional about Bill, you are never supposed to feel it is some great love between the two of them. The abusive relationship ends up in tragedy for all involved.

Julie's relationship with Billy is a cautionary tale.

She doesn't nave to be played as heroic for standing by Billy. She can have her memories of the good times with him but can also remember the bad and be an example for her daughter.

The could do an all-lesbian version; maybe that would eliminate some of the concerns.

R31, it's all about the poppers she huffs during Out of My Dreams.

"My Man" (English lyrics by Channing Pollock. 1921):

He isn't true

He beats me too

What can I do?

What's the difference if I say

I'll go away

When I know I'll come back

On my knees someday

I don't know what to think. I don't condone violence against women. However, it is a drama. Julie says he lashed out at her once and struck her. The gossips in town said he beats her. He's desperate and then tries to do something to change their situation and it goes horribly wrong. So I guess the problem is with "someone can hit you hard and it doesn't hurt."

It's R&H's best score.

The CAROUSEL sets at Lincoln Center were great. The cast (including Audra) was dreadful.

Actually Audra's Carrie was the first time I've seen the character make sense. She's often played as a bubblehead, comic relief. All the way through. However, in the passage of time, Audra's Carrie became a real shrew. You can see it towards the end with the exhange with her husband.

Enoch: You think a woman with 9 children would have more sense.

Carrie: If I had more sense, I wouldn't have nine children.

I've always seen that played for laughs. Yet Audra played it very angry, and it really worked for the audience to believe that her life didn't become "Geraniums in the window."

And the Heaven sequence was brilliant. It was very cold and the angels were dressed as Puritans. It was just brilliant.

I didn't care for the Lincoln Center Carousel. At all. Shirley Verrett was terrible. She often would lean her entire body against the dock and rip a huge fart right before her scene with Julie. Gross.

Patrick Wilson was in the ensemble of Carousel. I hope he wasn't staged on that dock!

[quote]While not as overt with the physical abuse, I always thought My Fair Lady had a pretty abusive relationship at the core. Higgins does not even seem to have learned anything at the end when Eliza comes back (although I have heard they have softened "bring my slippers" scene in more recent adaptions).

The most abusive relationship in MFL was the one between Eliza and her father. As Alfred meets Higgins, he advises him to "give him a few licks of the strap." After the party when she cries "Don't you hit me!" she expects Higgins to hit her but he doesn't. He himself can't bring himself to be violent towards a woman, but he can threaten to let another woman do the dirty work. And it's because she grew up in a climate where such extreme level of discipline was considered normal amongst the high and lower classes that you believe that she would seek relationships with such similarly high-strung people as an adult.

And where it differs most of all from [italic]Pygmalion[/italic] is where she ends up. Shaw leaves them with Higgins laughing at the idea of why she would want to marry Freddy. Alan Jay Lerner opens it up and predicts what kind of life they will have and it isn't pretty, and in choosing Higgins over Freddy she chooses financial security over a good-looking but financially dependent mama's boy.

Wonderful music. Story line creepy as fuck.

R43, what change did Mrs Patrick Campbell make to the end of the play. It is my understanding that she refused to play it as Shaw wrote it, but I am not sure what she changed or refused to do.

The ballet stopped the show at Lincoln Center. It was unforgettable. They could have ended the show right there and people would have gone home completely satisfied.

Chicago's Lyric Opera did a spectacular production a couple years ago with a cast of Broadway actors and a nearly 40 piece orchestra. Steven Pasquale played Billy. He wants to do it on Broadway.

Won't the 1994 version of Carousel be remembered mostly for opening up major roles of the cast to diversity? I remember newspapers playing up that angle. I also remember the Snow children were played by blacks, whites, and Asians.

That was to distract from the wife-beating stuff.

r46 Was it the ballet or Ms. Verrett's gas that stopped the show? Oof.

[quote]Yes, while Nancy makes bad choices, Bill is not meant to be viewed as a romantic lead - he is seen as a villain and does not get redeemed in the end. While Nancy is delusional about Bill, you are never supposed to feel it is some great love between the two of them. The abusive relationship ends up in tragedy for all involved.

Billy Bigelow lost his temper once and hit Julie. That was the only time he did that. The whole play is about him trying to get out of a life of crime and try to be a good father to his child, but he fails and dies before that can even happen.

Patrick Wilson played Billy in the tour.

There is a youtube clip of Patrick Wilson as Billy. He was much better than Michael Hayden but not as good as Marcus Lovett.

Patricia 'Mrs. Bucket' Routledge played Nettie Fowler in the London production. Much warmer performance than Verrett.

Steven Pasquale's Soliloquy from the Chicago production.

Definitive.

Similar in tone to Warlow's but richer and more masculine. Since Pasquale is too old to play Billy as a twenty year old they aged him and Julie and set in the depression era.

Don't like shows were ghosts come down and try to run the human beings lives

I attended a college production because I was dating one of the lead male actors. I fell asleep, twice.

When he asked what I thought of the show, I totally lied, because he was hot and the sex was great.

What exactly was Nettie Fowler's business? A health spa? A fat farm? A boarding house? A school for wayward women? A drug den?

R&H were lazy. Look at the similarities between Oklahoma and Carousel

The second leads are comic airheads

There's an evil man that hangs around and everyone tolerates him

There's a nurturing earth mother type

there's a long ass ballet sequence

There are some absolutely beautiful songs in it--some of R&H's best: "If I Loved You, " "When the Children Are Asleep," "Mr. Snow," "Soliloquy," "What's the use of Wond'rin'," "You'll Never Walk Alone." Those are some of the most beautiful melodies Rodgers ever wrote, and the lyrics are not embarrasing.

However, there are also some genuine clinkers too: "This Were a Real Nice Clambake" and "June is Bustin' out All Over" have lovely melodies, pretty arrangements, but idiotic lyrics. And the less said about "Stonecutters Cut It on Stone," "You're a Queer One, Julie Jordan," "Geraniums in the Winder," "There's Nothin' So Bad for a Woman," and "The Highest Judge of All," the better.

I would vote for "South Pacific" being their strongest score overall. Especially since I once saw a hilarious one-woman interpretive dance performed in the Village to Mandy Patinkin's rendition of the most pompous song in the score, "You've Got to be Carefully Taught."

[quote]…"June is Bustin' out All Over" have lovely melodies, pretty arrangements, but idiotic lyrics

All the bugs'n out of bushes

And the rum an' river rishes

[quote]However, there are also some genuine clinkers too

You forgot a bunch of sailors singing "Blow high, blow low." It rates only second to Jerry Herman's "I Put my hand in."

[quote]I would vote for "South Pacific" being their strongest score overall.

Yes, and everyone cuts "Happy Talk" because people find it racist. And the social justice warriors growl at "There Is Nothing Like A Dame" but it can't be removed because everyone expects it.

"You've got to be carefully taught" is a stupid song. Finger wagging, moralizing dreck.

I fuckin hate R & H and think Carousel is the worst to sit through. Sheer pain. The best one to sit through is KING AND I. SOUTH PACIFIC is endless. At 11 pm, you are hoping the muthafucka dies to you can leave the map room scene.

State Fair is much better in my opinion than Carousel. It moves quicker has a lot more melodic and hummable tunes.

[quote] R&H were lazy. Look at the similarities between Oklahoma and Carousel

They tried to break out of that to an extent with [italic]Allegro[/italic] and it flopped.

I vote for the sound of music as their best

Sound of Music may be their best. It has one absolutely horrible song ("An Ordinary Couple") that was replaced in the movie with a fine, poignant song: "Something Good."

Yes, State Fair is a piece of work:

I owe Ioway more than I can ever pay So I think I'll move to Californi-a

Michael Hayden was very hot in the revival though, voice or no voice.

"A lot of actresses have turned down the role because she is so passive."

Only stupid, unperceptive actresses. Julie is the engine that drives the entire Carousel plot---she knows what Billy thinks and feels even before he does ("just their time, I reckon"). She's uncanny, almost witchy in her prescience ("You're a queer one,," etc).

And Hammerstein was no more advocating wife-beating/domestic violence than Hugh Wheeler was advocating cannibalism and death in Sweeney Todd. You're confusing the characters with the writers.

"R&H were lazy. Look at the similarities between Oklahoma and Carousel

The second leads are comic airheads

There's an evil man that hangs around and everyone tolerates him

There's a nurturing earth mother type "

Darling, it's called the Shakespearean model. You know, romantic and carnal couples (MUCH ADO ABOUT NOTHING), earth mother figures (ALL'S WELL THAT ENDS WELL), evil men that "hang around" (Edmund/Lear, Iago/Othello).

It's not R&H that are lazy.

"People Will Say We're In Love" is a close variation of "Make Believe."

Look at Patrick Wilson's pecs in the video of Carousel. Dayum!

No, it's called a "conditional love ballad." Generates tension and drama. That's why R&H were pioneers.

I found that production good but very overrated! The colorblind casting removed me from the time and place at every moment. It was a dopey idea, really. I think you should serve the play and not create some pc jobs program by ignoring the author's intentions, but that's just me.

Audra and Eddie Korbich as a horny married couple was a dreadful idea but it wasn't about interracial casting.

R71, those two songs, while similar, had different composers (Richard Rodgers/ Jerome Kern ) but the same lyricist – Oscar Hammerstein II.

But as r73 identified, they were both conditional love songs, serving the same purpose in each show ( Oklahoma/Show Boat)

Colorblind casting in R and H much like in L and L is a disaster which is why I wouldn't even go to that production.

These creators often concerned themselves with very specific cultural milieus where people of color only unravel the tapestries which are tightly knit and which keep one removed from the dynamic emotional and social relationships in the play.

I saw a great Carousel in Jones Beach back in '73. Starring Constance Towers John Cullum and a pre ODAAT Bonnie Franklin.

It was a magnificently staged with that huge stage covered with the hills and trees of New England. The moody dark music which precedes the carousel waltz played against this ominous background with the water lapping against the stage created a tension which grew slowly into the explosive joy of the carousal waltz.

And at that moment the entire stage was turned into the carnival. The large turntable revolved bring the revolving Carousal into view as the side mountains were removed and the visitors and barkers came into view. Certainly one of the most magical transitions I'd ever seen on stage.

I was in tears at the end when Billy tells his daughter how much he loves her and Julie knows he's there.

It sure will never be seen like that again.

It's such an uneven show, but the highs are so high that they make me forgive the big mess all its faults. Some of the songs are heavenly, as mentioned above, and IMHO the "Carousel Waltz" is so goddamn good it should be in the regular symphonic repertoire. It's my single favorite piece of Rogers' music.

I wish there was a decent film version, the fifties version with Shirley Jones and Gordon McRae is lifeless. I understand that Hugh Jackman has been trying to make another one, but I don't think it'll ever happen. And I do love him, but he's much too old for the role and his voice isn't right, Billy Bigelow should be YOUNG. All his mistakes are the mistakes of a young man, and we we're supposed to forgive him for a hell of a lot, well, it's easier to forgive someone who isn't old enough to understand what he's done.

[quote]"The Vivian Beaumont Theatre" has to be the gayest theater name in history.

Minsky's Gaiety Burlesque Theatre might beg to differ.

I've been in it and the only thing worse than sitting through it as an audience member is sitting in the gawdamned Green Room for hours waiting for your scene.

Or, having a Billy Bigelow with a cold who's hawking up loogies all over the set.

On a more serious note, it's a tough show to pull off.

It has a gorgeous score but at heart it's stuck with two not very likeable characters in the central roles. Both Billy and Julie are kind of repulsively stupid. If they're cast with mediocre actors, it doesn't work. The roles need VERY strong singer/actors which is a rare combo. And, you need a director who knows how to stage a bigass looooooong show and keep it moving and memorable.

I like the part at the end where Rizzo says she's had an abortion and they all sing "We Go Together"

R70, The truth is that most actresses are stupid and unperceptive. That is why there are directors. Unfortunately, a lot of young actresses have a real SJW bent and feel empowered by turning town roles they feel do not show women as the actresses feel women should be shown. That, or they insist on rewrites. This is a growing problem on the regional level..

Personally, I think Julie is a great role as she really has to make a personal journey. I think one of the problems with most productions is that the young Julie and the mother Julie are played exactly the same. Rarely does an actress really fill in the 16(?) years that have passed.

To turn down a great role like Julie seems insane to me.

What would such a person be thinking?

Why because she is perceived as a doormat?

In other words these people are too dimwitted to see how complex she is because she is not empowered in the superficial laughable pretty young woman way Hollywood likes to depict today as it once portrayed the unrelentingly happy homemaker?

The thing about Julie is that IT WAS A DIFFERENT TIME PERIOD. You can't judge Julie by today's standards.

What does Julie know in the beginning? She works in a mill and she's locked in at night. If she's not back by curfew, she gets kicked out. How can you expect Julie to be an empowered woman? She gives in to her base nature of pure lust for Billy and throws all caution to the wind.

And as r83 said, very few productions explore the 16 year time period. The focus of the show shifts to Billy and his journey to Heaven, Julie isn't given much stage time to demonstrate her growth.

[quote]I've been in it and the only thing worse than sitting through it as an audience member is sitting in the gawdamned Green Room for hours waiting for your scene.

You played a student in the last, graduation scene, didn't you?

R84, that is pretty much it. It is really more about bragging rights though. It makes the actress feel special that she turned down a role for "personal beliefs".

R85, there is is a bit more that regarding the mill. It isn't in the script, but the reality of mill work at the time is that the mills got young girls on apprentice programs. They were taught an occupation in exchange for room and board. The problem was that when they finished their apprenticeship at 18, there were no jobs as all the other mills had apprentice programs as well. Julie needs to get married because otherwise, she will be out on the streets with very few prospects. Billy is her way out. This would have been known to a 1940s audience and most likely did not need to be spelled out.

Julie doesn't need much stage time to show her transition. The scene where Carrie tells Julie about her trip to NY is enough. Her reaction to Carries prattle about the trip is all a good actress needs.

Mary! (All of you)

[quote]To turn down a great role like Julie seems insane to me. What would such a person be thinking?

I'm waiting for them to offer me a role in The Vagina Monologues.

[quote]Julie needs to get married because otherwise, she will be out on the streets with very few prospects. Billy is her way out.

She won't be on the street. Nettie Fowler will take her in.

R90, I exaggerated to make a point. She would not likely be able to find gainful employ at another mill. She would either have to travel to find work or be a burden to a relative, a sin worse than murder in New England. Regardless, she had a very strong motivation to get married.

r91, Yes, I know. But the mill thing is a story device that doesn't ring true. Why work in a mill when she could work for Nettie Fowler, even though it's never quite clear what Nettie does.

The show tries to make the stakes high because Mr. Bascombe comes along and gives her a chance to get back to the dorm and not get penalized. But she stays with Billy. So she's not really that worried about her future.

R92, If Nettie had work for her, Julie would not be working in a mill. Mill work ain't pretty (or safe). If Nettie had something better for her, she would make sure Julie was not working in a mill. Nettie runs a spa, . This would be seasonal as it would depend on the tourist trade. She worked her ass off in the summer and had to make what she made last all year long. A dependent would be a hardship unless that person could bring in money in some way.

[quote]If Nettie had work for her, Julie would not be working in a mill. A dependent would be a hardship unless that person could bring in money in some way.

And yet, she ended up living with Nettie and bringing Billy in as well.

[quote]I'm waiting for them to offer me a role in The Vagina Monologues.

Don't hold your breath, Caitlyn.,

"Why work in a mill when she could work for Nettie Fowler..." That's the stupidest thing I've ever read. The poster must be from All That Chat.

Molnar created a character who is a young woman, alone in the world, without family, without a dowry, without social status, without marriage prospects and without an income of her own. Why do you think she says, "I'm never going to marry." She knows that isn't likely to happen for her. She knows she has none of the things that would make her marriageable and that she has been abandoned by society and its conventions.

Molnar gave her nothing but her wits and a future of slowly killing herself as a house maid. R&H made her life even worse, putting her in a factory. There is no possibility for her to say, "Oh, I'll just go do something else. Maybe I'll just go get a job in a spa." This story does not unfold in 2017. Society then was not that fluid. Billy Bigelow comes along with a handsome face and sweet voice and warm arms and that's her ticket, maybe her only ticket, out of a slow, punishing death in a factory, or just having her fingers cut off in an industrial loom after which she would be tossed out on the street if she wasn't lucky enough to bleed to death.

It might be possible to rethink CAROUSEL as a story of a woman trapped by society's conventions and the limited choices available to her. But it might also be that the text is too heavily focused on Billy and the Star Keeper and all that heavenly dreck.

I loved Kelli O in the NY Phil concert production from a few years ago. Her bench scene was so beautifully played. And, what heaven to heat the Carousel Waltz played by the NY Phil. i just can't see a 22 piece band being very satisfying.

I'm tired of all this "Julie has no prospects". Mary Kay or Amway just to name two.......sheesh.

[quote]I'm tired of all this "Julie has no prospects". Mary Kay or Amway just to name two.......sheesh.

If she hadn't made googly eyes at Billy, I'm sure Mrs. Mullin might have considered her for employment at the carnivale. A pretty young thing like Julie could have attracted all the menfolk to the sideshows.

[quote]A pretty young thing like Julie could have attracted all the menfolk to the sideshows.

Julie'd have to dance for the money they'd throw.

[quote]Julie'd have to dance for the money they'd throw.

By the time they rolled into Kansas City, Will Parker could have seen her at the Burlecue show for 50 cents.

Nettie Fowler was the Heidi Fleiss of New England.

[quote]Nettie Fowler was the Heidi Fleiss of New England.

Hence the song, June is bustin' out all over. Poor June just can't find a brassiere that holds her perky bosoms.

Just about the entire canon of great American musicals is questionable today according to the NYT's review of Big River which is what got Viertel so angry.

Of course most of the ATC Annies didn't get this at all and defended the critic's ludicrous university ivory tower(as of pc 2017) view point.

The Sound of Music was the worst score R&H ever wrote - Lonely Goatherd, I Have Confidence, the diabetic inducing My Favorite Things and 16 going on 17 are all dreadful. Eidelweiss and Cllimb Every Mountain, neither one all that great, were at least listenable.

The Sound of Music was the worst score R&H ever wrote - Lonely Goatherd, I Have Confidence, the diabetic inducing My Favorite Things and 16 going on 17 are all dreadful. Eidelweiss and Cllimb Every Mountain, neither one all that great, were at least listenable.

I can see that it's a difficult show to cast, as both Billy and Julie have to be played by top singers, who can act well enough to make the audience like two characters who are brainless and ruin their lives and shouldn't be trusted with a child. Of course that's the point of the show, Billy does everything wrong in life and is still redeemed at the end, and to modern audiences Julie isn't much more sympathetic. She defends the rotten husband who hits her and can barely keep her kid in school,

So the audience has to sit through three hours of foolishness before one of them does something right, at least there's some good music to listen to on the way.

[quote]I can see that it's a difficult show to cast, as both Billy and Julie have to be played by top singers, who can act well enough to make the audience like two characters who are brainless and ruin their lives and shouldn't be trusted with a child.

So, you want a musical where the lead does everything right and is still punished?

How about "Job: The Musical!"

And of course nobody like Julie and Billy exists today because we are all so enlightened.

And nobody strikes out violently in anger and women no longer love men who abuse them.

Thank goodness these things no longer happen.

Confusion, irrational feelings, physical anger and foolishness are things of the past and no longer deserve our empathy.

Julie needs a Job, to put things in perspective

Presumably she got one after Billy died, she and the horrible kid were living on their own and not as poor relations.

Job the person, not job meaning employment

Is Nettie in the second act?

Nettie IS the second act!

Dancing in a carnival is not all it's cracked up to be.

[quote]Is Nettie in the second act?

Yes, because Act 2 begins with the clambake and subsequent suicide. She's also in the end at the graduation scene.

[quote]Yes, because Act 2 begins with the clambake and subsequent suicide.

I thought that's the end of the first act.

[quote]She's also in the end at the graduation scene.

Does she have lines?

The reason I ask is I thought Nettie died and left her spa (or whatever) to Julie.

Doesn't Nettie sing You'll Never Walk Alone in Act II? Or at least the reprise??

There must have been some tv production with Robert Goulet playing Billy; there's a clip of it on YouTube. He sings "If I Loved You", his rendition is so good that it made me want to see the whole production.

What I object to is Billie's suicide.

He is so defiant it is something completely out of character.

The one good thing about the movie is that he is killed in the robbery attempt which makes his death much more tragic trying to make a better life for his family no matter how misguided.

Billy

Based solely on the dreadful movie version, I always hated Carousel. Until I saw the Lincoln Center production, which was fantastic (OK, Michael Hayden less so). I can still see the rippling water projected on the stage floor and the carousel coming down from the flies.

Act I ends with "Soliloquy"

Act II begins with "This Were a Real Nice Clambake," and then goes through Billy's death and Netty's first singing of "You'll Never Walk Alone." (to comfort Julie after Billy has been killed). Then there is a huge leap in time one third of the way through Act II to the scene in heaven eighteen years later, and then Billy comes to earth. Then we have his daughter's graduation, where the principal asks everyone to reprise "You'll Never Walk Alone."

SOLILOQUY does not end the act. There is a scene between Jigger and Billy (who decides to participate in the robbery) and a tag reprise of JUNE IS BUSTIN OUT before the curtain falls on Act One.

I found the movie really depressing and hollow.

Yes, R119. A full television production of CAROUSEL. Armstrong was the sponsor.

Armstrong also presented Goulet in television productions of KISS ME KATE and BRIGADOON.

Given the realities of television productions, all three were very, very good. Soundtrack albums were released for all three and they might even be better than the productions themselves.

My darling ex, god rest his soul, unfailingly made his exit with, "This was a real nice clambake."

Funny how the things that sort of bug you at the time turn out to be the things you miss the most about a person.

Goulet's Bench Scene in that Armstrong production is astonishing, possibly the best I've ever seen. Truly.

[quote]What I object to is Billie's suicide.

This "Billie" should've committed suicide.

Ha!

I knew I had the wrong character.

I was just watching some youtube clips. I know the film is not the best version, but there is something touching about Shirley Jones's face when Billy tells her he loves her. Gordon M. seemed to age about 10 years and gain about 20 pounds in the short time between the filming of Oklahoma and Carousel.

Nettie farted? That is the straw that breaks the camel's back.

Considering that face and that voice MacRae was kissed by God.

Gordon MacRae joined the film cast of Carousel just as cameras were set to roll. Sinatra walked off the movie rather than be forced to shoot two different versions (Widescreen and standard ratio) while being stuck for weeks in an isolated pocket of coastal Maine. MacRae was a heavy drinker and it bloated him. With no advance notice, he had no time to slim down before stepping in front of the cameras.

The Chicago production was great. Setting it in the depression lended an extra air of danger to Billy and Julies choice to hookup and lose their jobs. Charlotte D'Amboise played Mrs Mullin as a snakey sexy predator.

And aging Billy and Julie changed the dynamics. Laura Osnes was a sassy strong Julie sick of her life in the mill and willing to risk it all for sex, a little bit of life. Her only moment of weakness is at his death

And Pasquale's Billy was a guy whose charisma and youth were fading, and he knew he was running out of options.

A really great production. Should have been moved to Broadway.

r135 Yes! Agreed!

Obviously Frank Sinatra was talented, but I cannot see him a s Billy. Definitely would have been a case of someone being hired for their name rather than being right for the role.

I thought they had to shoot it twice because one version was going to be in 3D, but they eventually abandoned that idea.

Pasquale didn't have the voice for Billy.

Beg to differ R139

Best version I ever heard. He got terrific reviews

Henry King was a contract director for 20th Century Fox who should never have been given Carousel.

Also getting rid of DeMille was a bad idea.

[R86] I played the Starkeeper/Doctor. He's in the very beginning and then not until "Heaven" then again at the very end.

I was good....real good.

I saw the Lincoln Center production and was entranced. Sure, Hayden couldn't sing that well, but he came across as so vulnerable I ended up crying several times, and I hardly ever do that.

I read later that the design concept was based on the designer's dreams. Often surreal, but always effective, with gradually increasing views of the moon. Beautiful and haunting. One of those shows where you come out humming the sets.

Verrett was OK but her older age made her seem out of place midst a young cast. McDonald, known as Audra Ann back then, was a revelation, making Carrie into something no one had ever thought of before. She was marvelous, walked away with every moment she could get.

Funny aside: years ago, since I'd ever been to Fire Island, I asked a gay friend to describe the difference between Cherry Grove and the Pines. So he told me Cherry Grove is Jigger Cragin and Fire Island Pines is Mr. Snow. Very apt...

Correction: I had never been to Fire Island. After finally going there, I saw my friend had a point.

And you people are just about the only ones I can tell who get it.

As to whether it's PC to perform it today ... On tonight's episode of "The MIddle," Brick was writing his own musical (sort of a Scottish version of "Hamilton") to enter in a competition to decide which show their school would put on. I gather that Brick is like a freshman in high school. Anyway, Brick's play was outvoted by the eventual winner, "Carousel!" I don't know if this has any basis in reality, but I thought it was amusing given our current discussion of the piece.

Funny aside: when his parents warned Brick that trying to write a hip-hop musical about a Scottish historical figure might bring on some derision from his classmates, he said "Well, they laughed at Lin-Manuel Miranda, too." And Mike's response: "Who's she?"

The Live From Lincoln Center production from a few years ago is coming to DVD next week. We had a great Carousel thread at that time, too.

I don't know this show at all, but I love this young Patti LaBelle version of the song 'You'll Never Walk Alone'

Billy and Julie's older ages = characters' desperation: reminds me of all the DL debates on whether or not Holden and Novak's older ages helped or hurt the storytelling in the film of Picnic.

I beg to differ with you R140. Pasquale has the tinny sound of all male baritenors these days. There's no depth or color. He's certainly no MacRae, Raitt, or Goulet, all of whom had beautiful practically operatic sounds when needed. He might be one of the better out of today's male Broadway singers, but that's hardly any recommendation.

[quote]He's certainly no MacRae, Raitt, or Goulet, all of whom had beautiful practically operatic sounds when needed.

This is true. I'll also add John Cullum in his prime. No male singers today can match the color and depth these men had in their singing voices.

I was the one who said I saw Cullum as Billy at Jones Beach.

He was the last of the line.

They don't even train singers to sing the way necessary for the role anymore.

It's an old fashioned way of singing which audiences no longer want to hear much like the operatic Broadway soprano.

If you see the kinetoscope of a very young Raitt doing the Soliloquy it is absolutely electrifying. There's is also one where he's older which is nowhere near as good.

I'd rather hear that "old-fashioned" singing than the whiny, wimpy male voices of the last 30 years of Broadway. R149 had a point: how many Broadway baritones today can still produce that rich, full sound necessary to make it work?

[quote]They don't even train singers to sing the way necessary for the role anymore.

The way they train singers these days they sound even more generic and cutesy than ever before. In the 1940s-1970s you used to have a good mix of operatic Sopranos, brassy belters, and "character" voices. Now it's all chirpy and fake-smiley and over-sweetened.

I liked the Lincoln Center version. KC Rep and Living Room Theatre co-produced a production here in K.C. that I thought was dreadful. Lots of light bulbs hanging from the ceiling that actors would flip on and off during their scenes, no orchestra but an electric guitar,piano and drums.

I had a brief moment of excitement at R146 saying the Live From Lincoln Center Carousel was being released on DVD next week. Then I realized it's the recent semi-staged concert version with the NY Philharmonic, not the older full Vivian Beaumont production. I didn't hate the NY Phil Carousel, but, man, Nathan Gunn just cannot act. He's a handsome man with a gorgeous voice, but characterization just eludes him. Sigh...

I loved the prologue at LC with the women working the looms to establish the boredom of the factory--it made it seem more understandable why Julie will do anything to get out.

I agree with the poster who said the Act II ballet was a highlight--ravishing choreography by Sir Kenneth MacMillan and the carny guy dancer (who was barechested if I remember) was to die for!

I've liked Eddie Korbach in other things (like Drowsy), but I remember finding him grating in Carousel. But still, it's my favorite musical in the canon.

Why are all girls named Louise a pain in the ass?

Louisie, honey, if some nasty man comes offering you stars, kick him in the balls.

Sing out, Louise!

[quote]Obviously Frank Sinatra was talented, but I cannot see him a s Billy. Definitely would have been a case of someone being hired for their name rather than being right for the role.

I'm not so sure he would have been wrong for the role.

Not a Sinatra fan AT. ALL.

But, the idea that Billy might be scrawny, with a Napoleon complex might be interesting - a Shia LaBeouf or Eminem type.

Then all those characteristics he sings about his son having, Billy doesn't even possess himself; the crack about a carnival barker having a special talent, rather than serving as a cornball joke, is actually more desperate and inflated. Maybe self-consciousness is why he catches himself and covers with, "Hey, why am I talkin' on like this? My kid ain't even been born yet."

Billy having so much to prove is then rooted in his inadequcies as well as needing to provide for his family.

R156 - We always seem to whisper "Louise"!

This was before all Rodgers and Hammerstein musicals became all about improving relations between people of European descent and people of Asian descent.

The thought of Sinatra singing R&H makes me want to stab my eardrums.

Just for you, R160!

Death is preferable to listening to that.

I'm being triggered to trauma remembering the first time I saw Carousel, the movie, on television. After singing along to the Original Cast Recording alone in my lonely room, to the tunes in a musical called Carousel, for Crying out loud for Pete's sake, a musical that I assumed would be about Carousels, Children, Cotton Candy, not one that revealed to me the stark future abuse I would face as someone who loved Carousels.

What a dark movie, I guess being in black and white on my tv didn't help.

Shirley Jones has said that as much as she liked working with MacRae, she's sorry she didn't get to do "Carousel" with Sinatra. She has implied she considers Sinatra the better of the actor of the two (which is likely true--he was always a surprisingly good actor).

r163: MARY!

You sound like little George Michael Bluth watching HBO's "Oz," mistaking it for the Judy Garland musical.

[quote]Shirley Jones has said that as much as she liked working with MacRae, she's sorry she didn't get to do "Carousel" with Sinatra.

Shirley knew Sinatra had a big dick. And knowing what we know about her now from her autobio, there was only one reason Shirley was said she didn't get to work with Sinatra.

Sinatra was 40 in 1955, so he had aged out of the part by then--not that he had ever been appropriate casting.

Charles Farrell in Frank Borzage's 1930 LILIOM is much too, ahem, "light" in the role, and Charles Boyer in Fritz Lang's 1934 French version has no charm at all.

Only young John Raitt could have done it right.

[quote]Only young John Raitt could have done it right.

Or young John Travolta

Gordon MacRae is actually quite fine. He's plump in hat striped sweater, but he's handsome as can be, and has a gorgeous voice.

There are a number of R and H songs Sinatra has sung wonderfully as well as classic recordings of R and H songs.

Streisand who has spent so much of her life singing shit should have done so many more of both.

Her Something Wonderful is pretty great.

She could have and should have had so many more such recordings.

But then she would not have her underground mall.

What else can one expect these days? We live in the age of the rank amateur. Juvenile scores written for juveniles, not adults. But it reflects the infantilized culture at large. And it will only continue to regress further in the years to come. It's pathetic and terrifying.

R138 They were going to shoot it twice, once for CinemaScope and once for CinemaScope 55, a larger format similar to Todd - AO, a 70mm process. Sinatra walked out on the first day of location shooting. No one had told him that the film would be shot twice. As it turned out, CinemaScope 55 was abandoned by 20th for Todd AO. Carousel and The King and I were both shown in CinemaScope 55 for their New York and Los Angeles premieres but the process was scrapped.

McRae had NO sense of danger about him. Fine for Curly in Oklahoma but all wrong for Billy. .

There has been speculation that Sinatra left the film because he was insecure about his ability to sing the semi-operatic score, which was totally unlike his usual mellow crooning. And I can't imagine he was enthused about rural Maine, either.

But he was forty when the film was shot and looked older, and I think he was too old for the role. Billy should be young and impulsive, a forty-year-old whose been on the carnival circuit for decades would be used to loving and leaving girls, and would have dealt with pregnancy scares before - probably badly. Julie is written as 18, and Billly is young enough to marry impulsively instead of playing it cool (another reason Sinatra would have had trouble with the role), and young enough to be absolutely stunned by Julie's pregnancy. A traveling ladies' man of the day would have run out on a lot of girls by the time he was Sinatra's age, like Frank Butler singing "...can't go back to Tennessee, I'm a bad, bad man!".

According to the Wide Screen Museum both films were shot in the Cinemascope 55 process but not shown in it even during their first run engagements. Whether the original negatives exist would be interesting to know.

Oklahoma exists as two separate films. The one shot in Todd AO and the one shot in Cinemascope. Even Zinnemann said the Todd AO film is better. It certainly was a revelation to me when I finally saw it in a theater. I found out it was a film I liked.

Somebody pointed out something interesting about Dolly. In one version I'm not sure if it was the Todd AO roadshow version or the wide release 35MM version as Streisand runs towards the parade she has to grab on to her hat to keep it from falling of. In the other she doesn't.

Odd that they would use two different cuts for the exact same scene.

Wow! I am the OP. So many comments yay! I guess I'm not the only queer who saw this show in 1994?!

[quote]There has been speculation that Sinatra left the film because he was insecure about his ability to sing the semi-operatic score.

His recording of the Soliloquy is first-rate. It makes me wish he had done the film.

I've read the story as well that he walked because he wanted to be paid for two films.

He was notorious because he only wanted to do one take. If the director wasn't satisfied tough shit.

I always wondered if he regretted his decision.

He would have sung the score magnificently.

Though how believable a Hoboken cafone would be as a New England carnival barker is open to debate.

The Hobokenese might work for the role, a small-town Maine girl might think it made him a big-city sophisticate who'd traveled and seen the world. If her hormones were overriding her common sense, that is, as happens with teenagers in love.

And it'd be another sign that their love would never work - anyone cold see a man who'd actually traveled and seen a bit of the world would never be happy stuck in Podunk, Maine, with a girl who'd married him on impulse. A young Sinatra might have really worked in the role, although I still don't think a forty-year-old Sinatra would have.

Yeah he was on the old side.

He still looked youthful enough in his 30s to get away with OTT and FHTE.

As Holden should have in SB and Picnic but didn't.

Oscar Hammerstein II was so obsessed in the 1940s with American dialects (midwestern-Great Plains for "Oklahoma!," Southern African-American for "Carmen Jones," Mainer for "Carousel"), and so the lyrics and books of his musicals from that period have literal transcriptions of how he and the playwrights thought the accent should exactly sound.

It would have been really weird hearing Sinatra try to pronounce those words in the Mainer way Hammerstein wanted. And they were super-control freaks: they would not have brooked dissent for something like this for their movies.

I really don't see any reason to play Billy as a Maine native no matter who's cast or whatever the script says. Making him a stranger to the townspeople would be more logical for the character's development.

I'd rather hear Sinatra sing AN ORDINARY COUPLE.

Sinatra's singing of the soliloquy at R161 was OK, but nothing special and somewhat low energy. The song really did not fit his voice or style.

AN ORDINARY COUPLE is a beautiful, haunting song, dramatically perfect in every way as an ironic harbinger of things to come.

SOM is a great OBC but Ordinary Couple is as bad as Money Isn't Everything which means it's very bad indeed.

Something Good at least has a wonderful melody which is gorgeously played in the opening titles and I love how it turns into a minor key ominous quoting of Climb Every Mountain at the end.

How do movie contracts work? Sinatra showed up on set and *then* decided he didn't want to do the movie?

Sinatra also wasn't really right for Guys & Dolls. He was too sophisticated to play Nathan.

[quote]Something Good at least has a wonderful melody

It does have a nice melody, but the lyrics are crappy, saccharine.

"For somewhere in my youth or childhood, I must have done something good." How pompous is that? Not to mention that youth and childhood can mean the same thing. It's the worst song in the score.

If anybody should have been Sky it should have been Sinatra.

One of the most idiotic casting decisions in film history was him not having the lead in that. But I get that Brando was the bigger star at that moment.

Sinatra was still making snide comments about Brando in the 80s when I saw him in concert.

Sinatra also should have played opposite Streisand in Clear Day. Two musical power houses together singing those great Lane/Lerner songs and comically and romantically playing off each other would have been wonderful. And Minnelli had already worked with Sinatra. Montand though not terrible was still a bad choice for that film. Simply him wrestling with the English language is distracting.

Though I'm sure they would have not been able to get past the billing problem.

Sinatra was a pop singer and his recording of the Soliloquy is a mess. He would have been a disaster and was justly afraid of the music. Who are these bizarre queer Sinatra fans? No.

He would have been a fine Sky, however.

Tammy's version is great too, R147:

You'll Never Walk Alone is sung before many British football games to commemorate the mass deaths in the Hillsborough disaster.

Here's a different version of Sinatra's "Soliloquy," recorded about 15 years after the first version. There's also a 1991 "live" version.

[quote]AN ORDINARY COUPLE is a beautiful, haunting song, dramatically perfect in every way as an ironic harbinger of things to come.

Both Mary Martin and Theo Bikel, who introduced "An Ordinary Couple," felt that it was a disappointingly weak song. Rodgers and Hammerstein agreed, and they intended to replace it with a better song. Hammerstein's failing health prevented that from happening, so the dull love song remained in the score. "Something Good" is an example of the poor lyric-writing skill of Richard Rodgers, whose songwriting career went down the toilet after Hammerstein died.

People who criticize "I Have Confidence" should know that it was a faux-R&H song, cobbled together by screenwriter Ernest Lehman and music director Saul Chaplin, and only credited to Richard Rodgers as a legal formality. Lehman and Chaplin had Rodgers write a song for that spot, but it was no good. He gave them permission to substitute their own song on the understanding that they would not receive screen credit or royalties for it.

Thank goodness I don't have to run around looking for that little fag.

How come Mary Rodgers only had one hit?

Though I know Frank Sinatra was somewhat "redeemed" in Hollywood after his Oscar win in 1953 for From Here to Eternity, wasn't he still regarded as something of a boorish loose cannon throughout the mid-1950s?

There was a lot of ill will against him when he left his first wife for Ava Gardner and because of his Mafia ties. I don't think he was ever a popular figure with any of the big studios and their bosses.

I'm wondering, too, if by the time they got down to shooting the film of Carousel they were all just as happy to see Sinatra leave? I think they all recognized the casting was a mistake on several levels.

[quote]There was a lot of ill will against him when he left his first wife for Ava Gardner

And even though it was 10 years later, people didn't like him for the way he treated Mia Farrow.

[quote]How come Mary Rodgers only had one hit?

Wasn't "The MAD Show" considered a hit?

[quote]Wasn't "The MAD Show" considered a hit?

It never played Broadway and hasn't been revived, so no.

[quote]How come Mary Rodgers only had one hit?

Women can be competent composers but genius for musical composition is an almost exclusively male trait.

[quote] Not to mention that youth and childhood can mean the same thing.

"Youth" used to be used frequently to refer to adolescence., so the line does make sense. You're off-base there.

Do you seriously think that?

Or do you think women in the past did not grow up in an environment allowing them to develop their composing skills.

For let's face it today there are a lot of competent composers but NOBODY including men have a genius for composing.

The men are as mediocre as the women.

Sinatra was a strange guy. Many people disliked him for the way he treated women and for his mob connections; some people disliked him out of snobbishness because of his Italian-American lower-class background; other people really admired him because of his background (which he was always proud of) and because of his enormous talents as a singer and his surprising talents as an actor.

He could be very kind and generous to people he liked, but he could also be very rude or diva-like. He was very moody. He had strong political convictions when he was younger to help the poor and disenfranchised and African-Americans, but when he became older and richer he became a Republican.

I admire him tremendously as a singer, and I also admire him for the political work he did through the mid1960s. But he was always arrogant, and I would not have liked to have known him personally.

[quote] For let's face it today there are a lot of competent composers but NOBODY including men have a genius for composing.

Well, it's hard to say if you're comparing them to Richard Rodgers. If Richard Rodgers had been born 40 years ago, he could not write the music he did when he was 40. There is no market for that kind of music anymore. You couldn't even do it on Broadway--people would think it was too corny and retro and uncommercial.

The people with compositional talent are being turned now to write contemporary music for top-40 formats. Even the people who want to write music for Broadway would be discouraged to write music in a Richard Rodgers style today.

[quote]Or do you think women in the past did not grow up in an environment allowing them to develop their composing skills.

Women in centuries past had greater access to music lessons than men did. Music was considered a seemly activity for women of privilege and they were more likely to receive keyboard lessons than men were. Musical genius reveals itself at a young age. Most musical prodigies display an innate gift. Any girl or young woman with access to a piano could prove herself a musical genius if she were one. They seldom did because there were very few geniuses among them. Anyone male or female can bash out a memorable tune on a guitar, but true greatness in musical composition is a male trait.

[quote]Most musical prodigies display an innate gift.

Or rather, all musical prodigies display an innate gift. Mozart, Beethoven, and Bach were born geniuses, not trained to be geniuses.

"Both Mary Martin and Theo Bikel, who introduced "An Ordinary Couple," felt that it was a disappointingly weak song. Rodgers and Hammerstein agreed, and they intended to replace it with a better song."

And they were all WRONG. How anyone can remain unmoved by the bridge alone beggars belief---the way the unstable chromatic melody of the first half resolves into the major on "our arms around each other in the fading sun": THAT'S gorgeous songwriting. And then when you factor in the lovely main theme and rumbling ostinato...well, there are few songs that communicate marital bliss more effectively, including WHEN THE CHILDREN ARE ASLEEP.

One doesn't have to write in either a retro or top-40 style if one has a distinct voice of one's own, rooted in a contemporary neo-classic mode, like Sondheim or Jake Heggie. The latter's Moby Dick or Ricky Ian Gordon's THE GRAPES OF WRATH could easily be Broadway musicals if they didn't have the opera stigma for today's dumbed-down audiences and producers. There is a VAST middle ground of music style to be explored between foxtrots and rap. But that requires training, talent and, above all, taste, all sadly lacking in today's Broadway arena.

What's going on with Adam Guettel?

Can't he finish anything or is it that he can't anything produced? God knows he has enough money himself.

I felt Ordinary Couple was such a dud after hearing it a couple of times.

Kind of like the score to Allegro excepting So Far.

I guess I'll have to give it another chance.

ALLEGRO is, indeed, second-drawer Rodgers compared to TSOM. What's missing is the element of surprise, something that is a Rodgers signature (as with all good composers).

Well to bring up the example of another poster if a Mozart, Beethoven or Bach had been born 30 years ago how would they be expressing their genius today?

Or even Verdi?

[quote]Well to bring up the example of another poster if a Mozart, Beethoven or Bach had been born 30 years ago how would they be expressing their genius today?

Writing music for movies.

I just listened to AN ORDINARY COUPLE again. It's all I can do from breaking down into convulsive sobs on the line "and our children by our side" (all those ninth chords!).

If I have any complaint, it's that Martin's head voice gets a shade too "fruity" on "fading sun." Otherwise, it's an underappreciated gem.

I never had a problem with An Ordinary Couple. It seemed to fit nicely in with the rest of the songs.

I love "An Ordinary Couple." I have fond memories of seeing the national tour starring Florence Henderson when I was 10.

I am having flashbacks to my youth. The songs of Carousel had become songs in Oklahoma in my mind, and it is not so surprising since some of the singers were the same as well as the composers.

I can picture Curly singing "June is Busting Out All Over," Aunt Eller singing "What's the Use in Wondering," Ado Annie singing "When I Marry Mr. Snow," Curly and Julie singing "If I Loved You," etc.

Carousel and The King and I were both shown in CinemaScope 55 at the Roxy in NY and the Pantages in LA. Those were the only two engagements in that process. Not sure if a master of Carousel inCinemaScope 55 still exists but there is one for The King and I.

It seems the revival of the classic shows on Broadway are always big hits so I think there is still an audience who appreciates music of that time. Most Broadway musicals today have forgettable scores where many of the songs sound like all the others. As far as Richard Rogers goes, I prefer his music written with Lorenz Hart.

R219

This is from Martin Hart's astoundingly exhausting enjoyable Wide Screen Museum:

' Ultimately neither Carousel nor The King and I were ever shown in 55mm, and no record of a 55mm print exists.'

They were widely publicized as being filmed in the process but reduced to 35MM prints.

If there are any musical geniuses working today, they're scoring film or TV, because that's how composers make a living nowadays. If Mozart were alive today he'd be making a killing in film or TV scores, his ability to write brilliant stuff quickly would make him a better fit than his competitors.

It's also possible that an inborn musical genius could turn to writing pop music, but it's painfully obvious that there aren't any geniuses in that field fight now.

There was a long Datalounge thread about Mitt Romney actually being the Zodiac Killer.

Turns out that he actually was in Riverside and the Bay Area at the right times, and I keep hoping that the theory would catch on with the conspiracy nutters.

Shit, wrong thread!

Just got a flyer in the mail today announcing that one of our local major regional theaters is doing "Carousel" next month.

[quote] Mozart, Beethoven, and Bach were born geniuses, not trained to be geniuses.

None of them would have been able to produce his music, though, WITHOUT proper training.

I can picture Curly singing "June is Busting Out All Over," Aunt Eller singing "What's the Use in Wondering," Ado Annie singing "When I Marry Mr. Snow," Curly and Julie singing "If I Loved You," etc.

A lot of critics actually accused them of going to the same well too many times. The set-ups are very similar: the couple who seem meant for each other but can sing of love only conditionally and in the future; the older mother substitute dramatically singing words of wisdom; the flirty soubrette second-banana female character; etc.

As a result, they tried to really break the mold with their 3rd musical, "Allegro," but it didn't quite work. Throughout their collaboration, they would try to experiment, but their experiments rarely worked ("Pipe Dream" and "Me and Juliet" were flops), and when they stuck to the same basic model it would sell really well.

And they pioneered that model, so R&H had nothing to prove to anyone.

Showboat preceded them. It was Hammerstein who stumbled on the formula, borrowed from Ferber and then ran with it.

Weren't those musicals with the 2 young couples (serious and comical) and older single characters fairly common throughout the Teens, Twenties and Thirties?

The concept might have even originated with Shakespeare a couple of centuries earlier.

R230, it certainly was the formula for 19th century melodrama.

"The concept might have even originated with Shakespeare a couple of centuries earlier."

So noted above by r70.

James Snyder made an excellent Billy Bigelow....and had a hot ass in his costume so that always helps.

The photos of the marquees for premieres of both films at the Roxy say Cinemascope 55.

R234 here. I apologize. I guess I am wrong. I thought I had seen photos from the NYC Roxy Theatre premieres with CinemaScope 55 on the marquee

"McDonald, known as Audra Ann back then, was a revelation, making Carrie into something no one had ever thought of before."

Yes, R143, as a contemporary gay chorus boy.

Carousel was being shot twice in Cinemascope55 and regular Cinemascope because it was a new process and the Fox engineers couldn't figure out a way to convert the latter to the former. Two weeks into filming,they figured it out and the film ended up being shot only once, with the released Cinemascope version being a conversion from the larger format. The Cinemascope55 negatives survive in excellent condition and were used to create the Blu-ray releases. The Blu-rays are spectacularly sharp and clear but unfortunately suffer from color timing issues during the mastering. Fox won't fix them, saying they are fine and accurate but they're lying. The real reason they won't do them over is because of the cost.

The producers originally wanted Garland and Sinatra. Garland would have been fantastic ten years earlier but I think we all know she looked far too old and had too many problems by the time the film was made. Sinatra recorded the complete vocal soundtrack before leaving for Maine. It still exists but I don't think it's ever been released commercially.

Macrae wanted the part very badly and even led a national tour to show the producers what he could do. He was still touring with show when he finally got the call so he was able to step in on such short notice causing little delay in the production.

I think Garland was incredibly talented, but besides being too old for the part in 1956, would her voice have been right for the part of Julie? Wasn't she more of an alto and Julie's songs more in the soprano range. I suppose they could have always adjusted the songs to fit her voice.

I saw 'Carousel' last night. It's still in previews and opens next week. I'm familiar with all of the best known songs but wasn't familiar with the story. I loved the (fairly) recent Lincoln Center productions of South Pacific and The King and I (both with Kelli O'Hara).

As for the production quality, the show was quite reminiscent of the excellent 'On the Town' revival with Tony Yazbeck . The choreography is great during the many dance and promenade numbers and is supported very well by the large orchestra. There is a lot of ballet style dance and the standout dancer is Amar Ramasar who also plays Jigger. This Bronx native who is the son of a Trinidadian/Indian father and Puerto Rican mother is handsome, cocky, slim and long legged and was apparently born to do pirouettes. It's obvious that most of the budget went to assembling the large cast and orchestra. The sets are good but not grand. The painterly backdrops manage to convey a sense of a bygone era and serve the production well.

Joshua Henry is excellent as Billy both as actor and singer and is especially strong on 'If I Loved You' and 'Soliloquy'. Jessie Mueller sings beautifully and sympathetically as Julie. She didn't quit convey the depth of feeling that I expected during Billy's death scene. Her part struck me as underwritten so perhaps I should blame the authors. The actress who played Carrie was great and so was the gentleman who played her husband (I managed to lose my Playbill so I don't have all the details at hand).

I enjoyed the story and appreciated the ending which seemed simultaneously abstract and old fashioned. I guess the moral is that we need each other, we must learn to love each other despite our weaknesses, and we must continually strive to summon the powers of hope and forgiveness in troubled times. I can't speak to how this show may compare to previous productions but I would most definitely recommend it to any fan of Rogers and Hammerstein.

So many comments. I think this Richard Rodgers best score with Oscar. Oscar only wrote three great songs for this show " If I Loved You", " Mr. Snow", and " Never Walk Alone". The rest of the songs are boring or ramble or present a stereotype of women that I find distinctly stupid. If the waltz and the dance that goes with weren't it in the production there would little left to like. Never liked the movie although I grew up on the soundtrack. Sinatra would have been so bad for the role of Billy. I don't know why but Sinatra on the screen never comes off as rough and tough the way he can just singing. As for Garland I think she was too old as well. Shirley Jones loved this part. She thought Julie was a far more complex character. I disagree. Julie is an innocent and an idiot. That's why this show never works because you don't connect with any of the characters. As for Michael Hayden , I knew his brother. They are a boring and uptight family. It doesn't surprise me that he wasn't a good Billy. I remember at the time his brother was very upset that Michael wasn't nominated for a Tony, and there was a edge of racial shadowing that came with it.

As for " Ordinary Couple" it is a boring, horrible song that goes nowhere fast. " Something Good" at least shows some reflection and growth on the part of Maria. And I think " The King and I" is the best show R&H ever made. Two strong adult leads.

The Waltz was sublime.