What surprised you about London?

The way the Upper Class and Aristocracy have psychologically and physically cordoned off themselves from the "riff raff." They have their own "private clubs", country estates, social circles, educational institutions like Eton, Harrow right down to mannerisms and accents to essentially distinguish and separate themselves from "the great unwashed."

For a Canadian, an outsider, unless you've actually seen this first hand, it's impossible to imagine how entrenched and pervasive this Upper Class mindset really is.

And how effective it is in reminding the 'less fortunate' to respect that class distinction and all the privileges that come with it.

Been there a lot, but a couple of things stand out:

* Doesn't get all that cold in the winter, vs. East Coast US cities--it rarely snows in London

* Very low-rise--not many tall buildings, sort of like LA

* Long escalators in the Tube

* Number of Arabs in the white headdress thing for men and fully covered face with just eye slits for women (too tired to google what they're actually called)

* Number of good and healthy chain type restaurants that mostly cater to office workers at lunchtime. (They would do very well in LA, I think)-- that's a pretty new development, last 2-3 years

* How easy it is to walk everywhere

After visiting and living in London (Wembley) during the 1970s and 1980s, returning to visit after 20 years and finding large sections of it no different to Saudi Arabia, Kuwait or Egypt.

1) How many Americans there are everywhere. 2) The increasing synchronization with American culture and ways of doing things. Other than the word Royal affixed to things and young female Londoners looking like tarts, it's harder to find obvious differences between the UK and the U.S. 3) All the office workers drinking for many hours after work during the week.

[quote]And how effective it is in reminding the 'less fortunate' to respect that class distinction and all the privileges that come with it.

I think the less fortunate are completely unaware of it. I read on the blog of someone who inherited an earldom that young staff in shops look at the name on his credit card and ask "Is that a pub?" It's become like Japan, where the old aristocracy and their social and business links are very strong but 99% of the population are completely in the dark.

My company recently decided to close their London office (we're headquartered in the much more sublime - and chilly! - Edinburgh) and relocate everyone to Manchester - which has apparently gone down a storm with the London crew. For a start, it's cheaper, much much cheaper than London - housing is more affordable, travel costs are better, quality of life is much better - for people travelling to-and-from Manchester it's easier but most importantly, the office space we're leasing is twice the size of the London set-up but at something like a third of the price. Travelling between London and Manchester is ridiculously easy: two hours or so.

I hadn't been in London for about ten years when I was told last month to hop on down to London to attend a meeting/seminar/mutual-jerk-off-session between the company and some American investors and what didn't surprise me about London is that it's ridiculously expensive nowadays. It used to be said that to guage a London-price for everything that you multiplied the cost by three - now it seems like you have to multiply by five. And everyone in that city is so damned fucking miserable. I'm from Glasgow, the cheery psychopathic sister to Edinburgh, and it's a safe bet that if you get lost in Glasgow that you can stop a stranger and they'll give directions, whereas in London they look at you as if you just crawled out of Tom Daley's well-fucked arsecrack. No. One. Smiles. Fucking weirdoes. What amazes me though - and this is coming from someone who has been to pretty much every major UK city, is that London isn't worth the effort.

Sure, there's all the tourist shit for the braindead kleptoparasites and their cameras and waddling children, but London's a fucking themepark. Compare that to, say, Birmingham (that's the original, dears, not the hole in Alabama) or Liverpool and there's a different energy. We were told by our government liaison that we were "mad" to move away from London - hardly. Take a look at a lot of UK companies who you'd assume are HQed in London and it becomes clear: the London office is literally becoming an outpost, nothing more.

[post redacted because linking to dailymail.co.uk clearly indicates that the poster is either a troll or an idiot (probably both, honestly.) Our advice is that you just ignore this poster but whatever you do, don't click on any link to this putrid rag.]

London office workers (especially the younger ones) are notorious afterhour drunkards. Society there has been going down the tubes for decades.

How cold it is. I don't mean the temperature but the feel of the city. It's not a welcoming place, there's no warmth.

I'm happy I've been and I've seen all the historical sights, but it's not a city I have any desire to revisit. On the other hand, I'd go back to Edinburg or Dublin in a second.

London has a very large Black population that may surprise some people.

Fascinating thread, please carry on.

Based on the comments so far, what surprises me is how London manages to be just like Kuwait with everyone wearing the burka and being miserable, while, at the same time, getting pissed, having a laugh with the friends at the pub after work and wearing what they want.

We multi-task r12

R12 Much like Beirut and Cairo in the late 1960s and early 1970s. Cities change due to changing populations and attitudes.

OP "the palladian palace of Di's family facing Green Park (leased out but still owned by the Earl)."

I took a guided tour of the house back in the 1990s, and it was breathtaking. Princess Diana's ancestor, Earl Spencer, almost bankrupted himself building and furnishing it though.

So it really is a hole in the world like a big black pit.

What surprised me was how much trouble I had understanding people. They don't talk in the streets the way they do on the BBC.

[quote]The way the Upper Class and Aristocracy have psychologically and physically cordoned off themselves from the "riff raff."

Clearly not cordoned off enough if you had such a good look at them.

[quote]So it really is a hole in the world like a big black pit.

This is how every city in the world comes off on Datalounge after a dozen posts.

[Quote]London office workers (especially the younger ones) are notorious afterhour drunkards. Society there has been going down the tubes for decades.

You can easily say the same thing about Tokyo.

Rich Midlle-Easterners come to London to enjoy the booze and easy women culture. It's their kind of Disney theme park. At home they have these devout non-alcohol drinking pillars of their communities. But away from their homes they can drink, eat pork, and have sex with as many local slags as they want and pay for.

Rich Middle-Easterners ... At home the ARE these devout ...

sorry for the typos.

I think London is not England , which is an obvious statement, but really hit home at Brexit, when London seemed totally out of touch with how England felt.

If you want to see the England you read about try Bath or Cambridge or Oxford but London to me is a World Capital. It acts and looks as if it is the centre of the world and if you stand still long enough you realise it is. Every language know to man you can hear. The English are like a minority in their own city.

At its best it can be marvellous. The theatres, Galleries, History. The Tower of London still takes my breath away, as does Buckingham Palace.

At its worst it does not feel as though it represents England at all. It is just a mighty city where no one smiles, but the food can be cheap.

To giage your class/status, people ask about where you went to highscool (secondary school) unlike in the US , where they ask you abt College

[qute]I hadn't been in London for about ten years when I was told last month to hop on down to London to attend a meeting/seminar/mutual-jerk-of - f-session between the company and some American investors and what didn't surprise me about London is that it's ridiculously expensive nowadays.

You hopped on down to London? Is that a Scottish expression?

[quote]And everyone in that city is so damned fucking miserable.

Nonsense. It's very upbeat. I don't like it that much. But people seem to love it and the youngsters adore it.

A thriving prosperous metropolis.

[quote]I'm from Glasgow, the cheery psychopathic sister to Edinburgh

Talk about a shithole! You're the one who sounds like a cheery psychopath. 'Hopping down to London'...

[quote]and it's a safe bet that if you get lost in Glasgow that you can stop a stranger and they'll give directions, whereas in London they look at you as if you just crawled out of Tom Daley's well-fucked arsecrack.

More complete nonsense.

[quote] No. One. Smiles. Fucking weirdoes. What amazes me though - and this is coming from someone who has been to pretty much every major UK city, is that London isn't worth the effort.

More rubbish. It's a vast and fascinating place.

[quote]Sure, there's all the tourist shit for the braindead kleptoparasites and their cameras and waddling children, but London's a fucking themepark.

You think you're funny. You're not.

[quote] Compare that to, say, Birmingham (that's the original, dears, not the hole in Alabama) or Liverpool and there's a different energy.

Two more genuine shitholes. You're deeply provincial. No wonder London intimidates you.

[quote]We were told by our government liaison that we were "mad" to move away from London - hardly. Take a look at a lot of UK companies who you'd assume are HQed in London and it becomes clear: the London office is literally becoming an outpost, nothing more.

More crap. You're the most annoying person I've ever come across on DL.

[quote]To giage your class/status, people ask about where you went to highscool (secondary school) unlike in the US , where they ask you abt College

No they don't, they ask you where you live.

Visited. Great town. Lots of fun. The surprise was how very Araby the city is in some places.

WW for R19.

When I visited in 1977 it was down at the heels, sooty, depressed. Now it is more like Washington-Baltimore than New York, sprawling in that way most American cities are but British and European cities (and New York) generally aren't. That is to say it is leafy and clean now, but private in the way American cities are: governed by hidden suburbs, and the people you see in the street seem to be visitors like yourself.

And you feel like you need some codekey to understand it all, and they won't give it to you.

Something just surprised me about DL. A thread entitled The Left's Fetish with Islam was shut down and closed10 minutes after being created.

I was fortunate to spend a few summers working in London and living in a elegant townhouse mansion in Mayfair. What surprised me is how lovely summer is in London. Great weather, wonderful temperature.

There are terrific shops and fabulous museums of course. Many delicious things to eat in ethnic restaurants. Like all over europe, food from the grocery stores generally tastes better than average food available in the USA.

English men are fun and kinky sex partners and plenty of huge dongs.

Oh, poor R25. Tell me, slag - what Zone do you call home? Haven't you got some spunk to swallow to afford your Oyster this week? Beat it, whore.

London was my first trip overseas about 20 years ago. I visited an online friend (from AOL, haha) and was shocked by the poor living standards of his flat, which was not at all uncommon, I learned. He had a decent job in accounting, but had to share with 2 flatmates in Streatham Hill. The rooms were the size of shoeboxes, there was no water pressure in the shower, and the walls were paper thin so I could hear his flatmate fucking his gf all night long. On that trip and on my further visits to London, I barely met any English people. Nearly everyone (including my friend) was on a working holiday from South Africa or Australia or they came from somewhere else. I was also surprised by the early pub closing times. It seemed to me that in such a huge city, where binge drinking was so common, that they would stay open at least until 1am or later.

And this more of a general thing with England, but what's the deal with the separate taps for hot and cold water? I hate that!

The other surprising thing for this former NYer who has lived in Paris, SF and Hamburg, is how huge London is. You can't for example, miss a stop on the subway and hope to just walk quickly back to where you need to be.

We live a globallized world and nothing bigots like r3 will change that . Kindly fuck and get gay bashed

[quote]London was my first trip overseas about 20 years ago.

& so are your references.

[quote] there was no water pressure in the shower,

Power showers are the norm now.

[quote]And this more of a general thing with England, but what's the deal with the separate taps for hot and cold water? I hate that!

I don't have any taps like that. I think they've been long outdated.

& sorry about the rotary phones.

Spew your bitter psychotic anger somewhere else R36/R33/ R25. No one wants it here spoiling an enjoyable thread. Go and heal somewhere else -- and not on DL.

So much disgusting fried chicken.

And the young people are nasty litterers. In one commute you will see no less that 8 people dropping soiled, snotty tissues onto the ground.

I liked the bookstores, and that there was so much in terms of theatre and visual art. Liked the walking around.

Did notice a housing problem. People living in rooms or shared houses when they wouldn't elsewhere. Overall liked it and hope it doesn't deteriorate like so much of the world is...

R37 FTW!!

Ditto on the drinking--my London colleagues will head to lunch on Fridays and drink a pint or two. If I did that I'd be (a) trashed and (b) asleep shortly after.

They also do a lot of after work drinking but make up for it (sort of) by not eating.

The level of substandard flats available in London mirrored the UK generally. But things have improved. I agree, it used it be shocking. But house & flat sharing is almost mandatory unless you're on a really good wicket. It also reflects the enormous generational wealth in London -- if your parents didn't buy in London before the '80s you're really going to need a very very good salary.

[quote] To giage your class/status, people ask about where you went to highscool (secondary school) unlike in the US , where they ask you abt College

Americans ask what your job is. No one cares what school you went to. It's all about money.

Brits know your class the minute you open your mouth. The class system is still there. What you can aspire to be is set from the minute you're born.

Recent studies show that "class-based England" has more class mobility than the USA in recent decades.

[quote]Brits know your class the minute you open your mouth

Yes and no.

>>>

[quote]And the young people are nasty litterers

That is absolutely true! I remember boarding an empty train at Standsted airport and the wrappers of the entire UK confectionary industry seemed to be on the floor. How did that selfish mindset develop? Because I was also struck when being assisted by an old service person on the Tube how not just charmingly polite he was, but deferential -- it was like meeting a valet in Downton Abbey. I could only presume he had once served 'his betters' in some previous role or it was a generational thing.

here is one

R44, Americans tell each other to shoot for the stars, Brits don't do that. You can make all the money in the world and you will still be pegged common in Britain.

Americans tell each other that but statistics prove its a myth. Upward mobility only works for certain groups, for the most part. Many american kids are locked in and are being lied to.

The difference is that in the US, new money can be completely oblivious to the existence of old money, which is fairly well hidden.

In the UK, it's much more established and they have titles to go along with it, so even the clueless are clued in that the Earl of Stratfordshire is in a different league.

Yes R48, and the opposite applies too -- no dosh but still posh. Whereas in America if you're poor, except for some rare examples like the Vanderbilts, you're never upper class. Viscount Nelson (descendent of the famous admiral) used to be a postman, and there's plenty of other aristos just getting by. But unlike the middle or working classes, who mostly only know family, friends and work mates, English arisocrats all KNOW each other like some kind of underground Facebook. That's what comes as the real eye-opener if you've never mixed with them. They really do live in a parallel world.

[quote] house & flat sharing is almost mandatory unless you're on a really good wicket.

Translation into American: You got to share an apartment unless you got a lot of dough.

R31, you lie. That thread was open for a long ass time. I watched it in horror, I did not participate.

Doesn't look quite so grand from this angle. But then, street level is almost always a letdown for historic buildings.

-How achingly beautiful it was along the Thames on a nice Sunday afternoon, with the breeze gently swaying the trees. Something about the light and the lush greenery really struck me. -Open fields with herds of deer running across them, right by the roadway! -How early it gets dark in the winter.

Take London - a small city - dark - dark in the daytime - people sleep - sleep in the daytime - if they want to!!

r54 That's actually the back of Spencer House. The front of the house facing the park is beautiful.

The little cinematic flashes you get of eccentricity and grand other lives amidst the tawdriness of a big throbbing modern city. London does it really well...a purple silk handkerchief on a gentleman strolling through Green Park; men in dinner suits with thick floppy hair spilling out of a building with flaming torcheres out front in St James; a woman boarding a train at Victoria in furs and fascinator in the company of a man wearing a fabulous suit & fedora- I thought they were making a period movie and my head spun round looking for the camera; a dazzling blond man in a thick creamy tracksuit stepping out a grand house in Chelsea for a run, and an Uncle Monty in a kimono(!) going into another massive house in the next street! Who ARE these people?! Paris is like that too -- so much secret and hidden -- and then you're pottering down a blind street and suddenly a courtyard door briefly opens and you get a glimpse of black Mercedes roaring out with a vista of a sun-speckled limestone palace and orange trees, and bang, the doors close and prosaic reality returns.

It's like somwthing out of Dickens.

Spencer House has delicious plaster work by Joseph Rose.

Yes R57 I knew that. But it shows that in London, just as in most all congested cities, no matter how grand the edifice is from one view, if you move around and view it from all angles you'll end up disappointed at some point.

Looks like they have hot guys there. Is this representative?

R25 Fuck off. Just fuck off. I loved that post you dissected.

Man, you're bitter.

What is the bad angle on the Chrysler Building?

Spencer House is ravishing. And the Rothschild restoration inside is stunning. The other surviving private palaces include Lancaster House, Bridgewater House (a few doors down), York House & Dudley House. But Spencer and Wimborne House (now part of the Ritz) are the only ones open to the public. Of smaller places, Leighton House, the former home of the very gay Lord Leighton is worth a visit.

I lived in London in the late 70's. I've gone back over the years, and it has changed. When I was first there, people still remembered the aftermath of WW2, and there was a sense of sobriety, and you definitely felt that people kept a stiff upper lift. People were polite, but not warm or friendlier than they needed to be. Everything was well-ordered, and, people generally followed the rules of a polite society: no one cut in line, people were considerate of each other, etc. When I've gone back, I've noticed that what made London "London" to me is no longer there. People crowd you, they cut in front of you on the tube, they hustle you. The city has lost its manners, and I think it is because of the huge influx of immigrants, mostly those from India, Pakistan, and the arab countries. (Don't flame me, I am an Arab-American, and not making a racist comment.) Thatcher also destroyed a great deal of the middle class when she privatized a lot of counsel estates, and she made a lot of working class in England feel like they no longer mattered when she busted unions. Thatcher was great for the country if you strived to make millions, but she destroyed the spirit of those who don't.

Everyone with those grating accents!

That's Sowf Lononen, innit. Or Essex.

Regarding littering : My British husband told me that it's because they pretty much removed many trash bins form major areas with all of the IRA bombings.. then just never brought them back . I always complain that there aren't any garbage cans on the street there .. everywhere .

[quote][R25] Fuck off. Just fuck off. I loved that post you dissected.

Probably because you're as affected as he is.

[quote]Man, you're bitter.

Um, no...I'm standing up for my city which was being ravaged by a twee moron, from GLASGOW of all places.

[quote] Fuck off. Just fuck off.

Just about says it all about you.

How much the city loves their Muzzies.

R70 The city doesn't need you to STAND UP for it. It's an inanimate object. your city doesn't give a shit about you.

You're a shitty,bitter, twit.

You'd be angry too if the Muslims were taking over your beautifu historic city.

R32 is Sarah Ferguson

[quote]Number of good and healthy chain type restaurants that mostly cater to office workers at lunchtime.

Yes this was a surprise. I first went to london in the late 90s, it was dirty/sooty and the food was quite bad. Now it's sparkling, I guess because of the London olympics, and the food is quite good. The quick places are impressive, esp. Itsu. I hope it comes to the US.

(Another vote here to ban r25 who seems to be showing up in different threads to tear certain posts apart line by line. Makes no sense at all, just a spiteful, bitter person.)

I was surprised how close it was to Brighton by train. I was also surprised at how gay Brighton was.

I love London. Haven't been there in a while but used to live there in South Ken. Love that each neighborhood has a very distinct flavor. Love the gay bars. Love the food (yes, if you know where to look the food can be fantastic). Love the museums, love the history. Surprised by the sheer diversity of the population.

Bodean's is a good place for BBQ in London. So they do have normal food there.

I was sad when it went all woggy/chavvy

Muslims have been in the UK for centuries you ignorant racist fag. Stop calling them Muzzles. It's incredibly offensive.

That British people don't have the same dental and hygienic standards as we do. I was subject to more B.O. and morning dragon breath on the tube than I was in any transit system in NYC or Philly.

On my first visit to London in 1994 I felt more at home than in any other city I had ever visited. To this day, when I want to feel at home and removed from the rest of the world I fly to London for two or three weeks. London is my happiness spot. Similar on a few levels with a few American cities, but the English know the difference between contentment and excitement.

R6 R9 I also found London surprisingly cold and unhelpful to strangers. You ask for directions and they get very unfriendly.

This was surprising because I would have thought Londoners being cosmopolitan would be used to rubbing elbows with strangers. I think it's insecurity coming from a rigid class structure where everyone must know their place. And strangers by definition are people you don't know and so they don't know how to relate to you. Even to give a simple direction.

Once they have you pegged, they warm up, even in the highest circles. They seem to be classifying you all the time, calibrating every remark, inflection, move to move you up and down some social ladder in their mind.

This was in stark contrast to my experience with Parisians who seem to delight in other people and happy to share their Parisianness, if only to show how vastly superior they are. But here too, if you show an interest in what they show you, social interactions are delightful.

It puts meaning back in travel and the experience of people different from yourself. London is on the other hand confining and stultifying. .

I was surprised at how few people speak English.

It's hard to find a willing bottom in London. It's full of tops.

[quote] Stop calling them Muzzles. It's incredibly offensive.

More offensive than gays being beheaded and thrown off rooftops?

Idiot at R86. Those aren't Muslims who do that. They're extremists who claim to be Muslim but in actuality have bastardized the Islamic teachings to suit their own perverted ideology. Wake up and read and learn once in a while and turn off Fox News.

[quote]English arisocrats all KNOW each other like some kind of underground Facebook.

It's Society, characterised and reinforced by the top public schools, Clubland, and The Season. Debrett's Peerage and Burke's Peerage are its (overground) Facebook.

[quote]You can make all the money in the world and you will still be pegged common in Britain.

Which is why plain Mr Beckham was so very very keen to be offered a knighthood. Doubtless he could buy and sell not a few aristocrats, but that's not quite enough for him and his good lady. The fact that he referred to the honours committee as 'a bunch of cunts' really won't advance his campaign not to be seen as common.

[quote]I was surprised how close it was to Brighton by train. I was also surprised at how gay Brighton was.

Brighton has for many decades been 'theatrical', a description both accurate and euphemistic.

Nice post, R58.

fuck R87 with a dead donkey dick

Well put, r83.

R32 can't possibly be Sarah Ferguson. They used the verb "working" in their post which automatically disqualifies her or any of the York family for that matter.

I was surprised when, while showing some friends around London, we bumped into Rula Lenska.

[quote]Those aren't Muslims who do that. They're extremists who claim to be Muslim but in actuality have bastardized the Islamic teachings to suit their own perverted ideology.

R87 is another ignorant apologist attempting to separate Muslims from Islam and Islam from the Qor'an. They are the same Muslims who kidnap and enslave school girls from Nigeria to Iraq , murder non-Muslims in shopping malls in Kenya and hotels in Mumbai and Mali, slaughter shoppers at open air markets in Berlin, concert goers in Paris, and marathon runners in Boston.

Oh, and adjectives like "extremist", "fundamental" and "radical" are Western-invented, unknown in the Arabic/Urdu/Turkish/Bahasa lexicon.

I was surprised at the number of drunks vomiting on the sidewalks.

Posh drunks, too

I've been half a dozen times at least, and I've yet to see anyone wearing a bowler hat. Would it kill you guys to get with the program and put one on for the tourists once in a while?

Bowlers are only for members of senior staff.

I was surprised at how delicious the food was...oh wait...that was France.

Trainspotters. I knew they existed, but the first time I changed trains at Clapham Junction I was amazed by the dorks standing there furiously writing numbers into little notebooks.

Sales of bowler hats never recovered after 'A Clockwork Orange.'

R85, please provide proof. Or a link.

Nothing in this thread interested me more, than your post. :o)

Anglo Brits are usually exceptionally large men. Why would anyone be surprised that most are tops. Men from the rest of the world are rather twirlly-girly petitish in comparison and look most natural with their dainty legs straining for the heavens like boney antennas desperate for a TV signal. The biggest brutes on the continent are those Nederlander giants in the Netherlands. They are mostly tops too, but much more romantic and marriage oriented.

All the muzzles are bottoms so they'll never leave the UK.

That Notting Hill is nothing

That a lot of the sites are walkable to each other

That while it may not snow, it gets bone chilling in winter.

That people eat baked beans for breakfast

In Brighton I asked for directions and the girl walked me to my destination.

R25/70, go fuck yourself about Glasgow, which is a bloody fabulous city.

R58, what a wonderful description! Are you a writer? I ask with complete sincerity and admiration.

that the House of Windsor was NOT aware that I was in town!

That anyone in this city would put up with Patti LuPone for more than five minutes.

Pour me a pint mate, I've got a revolution to sit out.

Miss LuPone, that line is getting old. Why don't you go back to the theater and sit in your dressing room. If you drink too much, you'll miss your cue and leave Mr. Wilkinson alone on stage again.

R25/ R70 doesn't like the fact that Glasgow's a fucking epic wee city with people who smile on the Underground, who are helpful, who won't hesitate to smack you if you're being a cunt. Provincial? Us? No chance, love.

At least Glaswegians can still afford to buy a fucking flat in the city centre, you obnoxious twink. Go catch something and die.

I had to keep reminding myself that I wasn't in the Middle East when I looked at the people on the street.

No R62, that most certainly is NOT representative.

R85 is absolutely right R101. In my humble and tawdry experience. All the guys I connected with at saunas asked to fuck me. Big fat pale uncut dicks too.

Reading this thread has reminded me of something, so to those of you with nostalgic memories of the London of years gone by, I recommend the charming and hilarious movie version of "The Reluctant Debutante".

Did such a world ever really exist? I wouldn't know.

But just for fun, enjoy the divine Kay Kendall, in costumes to die for. With Rex Harrision. Angela Lansbury. And Sandra Dee (as Harrison's daughter and Kendall's stepdaughter) with John Saxon as the young duo. Great apartment too.

Here's a clip:

Thank you, R93 for speaking the truth when there are so many whackjobs just screaming to defend the Muslims on here...so funny that they have never read the Koran or Sharia law and on't understand that the Muslims would KILL THEM FIRST. Just go on believeing they are wonderful, gentle peace loving law abiding people, little snowwflakes. WE TOLD YOU SO.

[quote]for speaking the truth when there are so many whackjobs just screaming to defend the Muslims on here

There's a reason why they changed the name of the religion from Mohammedism to Islam (Submit!). They are no longer a religion but a political entity.

I wouldn't mind an English boyfriend.

[quote]I wouldn't mind an English boyfriend.

Trust me, don't go there.

It's true about mostly tops, London is known as "topper city" among European gays.

Again - she would have her fucking throat slashed if she ever did that to me and so would any of the self righteous fags on this thread. Period.

Step to the wrong dude, gags, and you will get stabbed or shot. Fact.

Are there any european gays call "bottom city" R118?

I went to London for the first time in the mid-70s and visited often through the 80s. I walked everywhere, north of the Thames from Whitechapel to Fulham and up to Camden Town but I never managed to see a man in a bowler hat carrying an umbrella, like Steed in the Avengers. Also that was the time of the first wave of Arabs, OPEC and all, and I never saw any of them either yet they were all in the news for staying at the Ritz.

I used to look at the jobs postings in the windows of agencies and I was shocked at how little they paid for office clerical work. London was less expensive then but even so, the salaries were not enough to live on.

Those were the worst years. I remember how depressing and sullen London was in the 1980s. I didn't go back until the naughties. I found it more bright and fun and European then.

I remember thinking the change was because of being part of EU. I wonder what will happen to it after Brexit now.

[quote][R58], what a wonderful description! Are you a writer?

LOL. Yes. But not a novelist. Working on a gay history book - as I type.

One thing that London used to have which was certainly an eye-opener was red phone boxes plastered inside with the cards of prostitutes. Anyone else remember?

There was another movie set in London, but British made, in colour around 1953. I saw it on TV years ago but have never been able to discover the title as I caught it halfway through. It was set in a London couturiers, and everyone speaks with FRIGHTFULLY upper class accents, and the movie ends in a fashion parade, the climax of which is a gown called Gloriana, celebrating the new Queen Elizabeth. Honestly, it's an absolute corker. Does it ring any bells with anyone?

R120, "Berlin Bottom" is well known.

[quote]I used to look at the jobs postings in the windows of agencies and I was shocked at how little they paid for office clerical work. London was less expensive then but even so, the salaries were not enough to live on.

r121, I do that too!

R124 Ooh I love Germans. Except the Germans Ive met also wanted to fuck me. I wonder if I come off "bottomy"

[quote] One thing that London used to have which was certainly an eye-opener was red phone boxes plastered inside with the cards of prostitutes. Anyone else remember?

LOL. I do remember that well. I was about 12 and there with my family on vacation and I went into one of those phone booths and found the cards which I thought were the funniest/raciest things I'd ever seen. My youngest brother, who would have been 8 at the time, was with me and was furious that I would not tell him what they were-- I was busy grabbing them to show my friends back home in LA, and he ratted me out to my parents who had a big argument about whether to take the cards away from me and/or explain to my brother what they meant. They were in the bedroom part of the hotel room but we could hear them loud and clear.

[quote]One thing that London used to have which was certainly an eye-opener was red phone boxes plastered inside with the cards of prostitutes. Anyone else remember?

I do, and to amplify the memory I have a book somewhere which is simply page after page of reproduced whore cards. A surprising variety given the limited format, and graphically very pleasing.

Back in the day telephone boxes would occasionally be purged by the authorities of their overlapping erotica. The chaste look didn't long survive of course, and boxes would soon be festooned again with lurid distraction.

Germans usually want to evacuate their bowels and bladders on you. And expect you to like it!

That's so civilized, as expected. In NYC numbers would be scratched or scribbled in the phone booths.

First visited London in '85, met a charming man in the lobby of the National Theatre. I was surprised his flat had no heat, but it did have a system of heated pipes in the bathroom, just to warm his towels! He also had to provide his own refrigerator and stove, as I recall. Nice fellow, showed me the flea markets at Camden Town.

Went back in '87, chiefly to see "Phantom" and "Follies." I've always loved theatre in London, far more affordable than New York. At least, it was then. By that point, I was in AA, and went to meetings there; surprised London had so few meetings, given its population. The night before I left, a hurricane struck; I had to climb over fallen trees to reach the tube station the next morning, for a circuitous journey to Heathrow, only to learn it had been shutdown. Luckily, an English AA friend let me stay with him. Sweet man, but very, very troubled.

Returned in '89, chiefly to see original cast of "Miss Saigon." While crossing a street, I met a man with whom I spent several nights, former ballet dancer with the Royal Ballet. Sweet man. We had fun. I still have photos of us wearing our leather jackets in his bed, taking morning tea.

London was the only European city I thought I'd want to live in, though I found the weather challenging. Often cloudy, but when it's sunny, it's beautiful. All that rain makes the greenery just gorgeous. Check out the movie of "Blow-Up" for the leafy, windy trees there. Didn't have as many immigrants then, and the Englishmen I met were friendly; went out to lunch with the AA people after the meeting, who were great. But then, I'm pretty polite and outgoing; so I don't generally have much trouble getting along.

Haven't been back since; sorry to hear of all the changes. That's life.

I can identify with r131. On my first visit, people were very friendly towards me (I guess it was because I was from the States). I got into a nice discussion with a clerk at Fortnum & Mason.

One year, I went in November and went to a Guy Fawkes celebration. That was so much fun.

I've been back a few times, although the last two times, it didn't seem like people were as chatty as they used to be. Don't know if that's the new generation or people just weary of Yanks.

I'll be staying near Trafalgar Square for a few days soon for business. Any cool gay pubs near there?

I had no idea Spencer House was still owned by the Spencers. That is worth a fortune in and of itself.

My surprise, the first time I visited, was how international it sounded... stand on a street corner and its as if you are hearing every accent on the planet. I was also surprised how common it was to drink at the grand dame hotel bars (The American at the Savoy is a favourite.)

R133: head to Soho... just wander Wardour and Old Compton Street, in central.

Thanks, R134.

What kind of bars are you looking for?

[quote] I'll be staying near Trafalgar Square for a few days soon for business. Any cool gay pubs near there?

Try the Retro Bar or Halfway to Heaven.

The Duke of Wellington is a typical pub but gay... human beings, not A gays. In fact I am not sure where the A gays go to be exclusively beautiful in London. The caste system still exists when it comes to pairing off but generally people are much friendlier and less Noah's ark when it comes to mixing.

I liked Glasgow way more than London.

That they sell hard liquor in the grocery stores. an entire aisle of it. Kinda glorious actually. The number of Russian and Asian girls with serious money (at least in what they were wearing-like head-to-toe Chanel). How bland the food is. And yes, the burkha wearing women although I saw far more of them in Paris than I did in London.

[quote] English men are fun and kinky sex partners and plenty of huge dongs

Yes, yes, and HELL YES!

Living in South Kensington for a while, I thought how truly cosmopolitan it was without giving up its Englishness (not Britishness, which still feels like a non-organic construct. The other thing that struck me was how unlikable Londoners were specifically, and the English in general. Every time (and I mean every time) I met someone.I liked it turned out the person was Scottish, Welsh or an Ulsterman. Well, I did meet someone from Carlisle I liked, but he said he considered himself to be "more of less Lowland Scot.) There was a lack of education and poverty of spirit among the lower SES people, and a crushing and stupid arrogance among the educated and well-placed people.

And that brings up the last surprising thing. The food was GREAT. From the local fish and chips places to the upscale Continental, nouvelle/fusiony/trendoid spots to the wealth of international fare, I loved the food.

If once the food was bad it's kick ass now.

[quote]I'll be staying near Trafalgar Square for a few days soon for business. Any cool gay pubs near there?

Halfway to Heaven

Which is a great, little name. Down by Embankment is the dance club Heaven. This little gay pub is nearer to Trafalgar Square, but is "Halfway to Heaven."

I used to go Heaven a lot. Is it still open?

I was surprised to find London to truly be the center of the world. I only wish I had found London 20 years earlier.

- St. Peters is dirty, inside and out.

- The Tower of London is surprisingly fascinating.

- gay bars are fun, not-gay bars, too.

- the marching-in-place kilt-wearing guards freeball (yes, I saw dick)

- the marching display of soldiers and horses at Buckingham Palace was interesting.

- sooty air; my snot came out grey

- cottaging still exists!

- hard cider in a pub is great.

- hard uncut cocks in the bath house near the Tube is greater.

R145, yes Heaven is still going but it will no doubt close soon and become a Pret a Manger with expensive flats upstairs.

London is everything New York thinks it is.

Does anyone know of any type of company which arranges small Summer cottages in small British towns? Something like a small town you see in Midsomer Murders. I'd like to spend a summer in a small British town.

R150 you can find loads of them on airbnb or just Google English holiday cottages. I am an American ex-pat living about 40 miles outside of London. I am finding this thread fascinating and entertaining. I work in London frequently, but mostly spend my time living amongst the upper class (I am not one of them) as many of them have country homes in my vicinity. I love going to London, but I'm always happy to hop on the train and go back home to the quiet (well, except for the sheep and foxes) of the countryside. I find the upper classes to be absolutely hilarious when they are in their "country mode". And I'm not talking about the Sloane-y see and be seen-ers, but the true eccentric, completely out of touch with how real people live upper class. And then they "go back to town".

I think The National Trust also rent cottages.

That it was nothing like EastEnders.

R147 Bab, the only English Cider worth drinking is from the South-West, a far cry from the substitute piss they put in front of you in Central. I can't imagine having a watered-down Glider as your very first Scrumpy, that's just awful. It should be Westons/Bulmers/Strongbow to start.

Is Sheridan appalled by anything in London? What do they think of Hyacinth?

I don't like london, my favorite european cities are Madrid and Stockholm. The architecture in london is really ugly and the buildings all have a horrible brown color that look as if they were painted with human feces as a colorant.

Is it still, R149?

R1, there is getting to be more and more of that in the US, but, because we have more space and a large population, people don't care, to the extent that they can have jobs and enough income to live a lifestyle that is relatively appealing to them.

[quote] It was surprising because you would think that women in London would be better dressers and more sophisticated...

... why?

R147, cottaging no longer exists in London. Grindr and other hook-up acts must have played a part. I miss my random trysts in the mens loo in the Wendy’s in Shaftesbury Avenue. That’s long since been replaced by a McDonalds.

How absolutely delicious the Indian food is and the ubiquity of Indian restaurants. I know that really should be surprising considering the long relationship between England and India. But I ended up eating Indian almost every day.

The indifferent attitude most people had to the royals.

That musical theater was every bit as good as Broadway.

Well, R162, at least the orchestra wasn’t a half beat behind like they were in the 70s. The Gypsy overture in the 1973 cast album is proof positive of this.

How American it’s become in terms of food, design, convenience. In the 70s-90s, it was very British. Now it’s just another global city.

And agree with the sprawl - it’s a trek to get anywhere. Kind of LA like but with a subway. Really not an easy place to hop around from place to place. Seems like you are more stuck in your neighborhood. Maybe like Brooklyn - but with worse public transport options.

I never understood the obsession many Americans have for it - other than the ease of language. Not that exotic or different - but some nice architecture - like Spencer House. But also some truly ugly post-war crap sprinkled in which tends to take away from the feeling of beauty - like you experience in Paris.

my 1st time was in Feb 1987. and we had a string of sunny weather so it was very nice. I went back in 1991 and had to whore myself out as I was a drunkard and was stood up by my local hosts there and I was broke!. Quite the trip.! A different bed every night from a sleazy hostel to the Royal Horseguards Hotel

I still love the markets when I’m over there, specifically Spitalfields, Columbia Road and Brick Lane on Sundays, Borough Market on weekdays and Portobello Road on any day but Saturday when the crowds are beyond obnoxious.

[quote] "Berlin Bottom" is well known.

More likely "Berlin Scat".

Those long escalators at most tube stations really are a pain in the ass.

The shameful SHAMEFUL lack of werewolves.

The masses of people wheeling the luggage everywhere. I had to ask if they were Londoners and if luggage was used like Americans use backpacks. So, no, they are all tourists, going to or from their hotels, and they are everywhere.

I heard that there is going to be a housing market crash in London. Lots of companies are relocating out of London too. Brexit and all that fuckery is on the horizon too.

And a horrible heatwave is coming this week following torrential rain. End of days shit.

London always surprises me. I saw a Shakespeare play in the Templar Church and paid my respects to all the tall Knights Templars buried there ( sorry to the one who I spilled a drink on). I rode a boat down the Thames and cosplayed with Lady Rochford and her husband at Hampton Palace. The very handsome House Calvary. The cacophony of a multitude of languages, which of course, dates back to the Roman era. The beautiful public garden discovered on a stroll through Chelsea. Chelsea pensioners. Visiting the Hunterian Museum and staying for a symposium. And so much more.

A lot of the little olde ladies, if you look closely, are rather naughty little olde men!

How far north of most Canadian cities it is. How cold it is in mid-April.

How the street names changed every two-three blocks.

I was in London in 1988 and was surprised by how good the quality of their inexpensive sweets like KIT KAT bars and their version of Malted Milk balls. I bought these Cadbury yodel thing that were filled with raspberry instead of vanilla cream they were EXCELLENT. Unfortunately Roundtree which made the Kit Kat bars and Cadbury and all the other British confectioneries were bought up by Nestle's and Kraft years ago the quality is GONE.

Hey, at least they finally got Reese’s Peanut Butter Cups over there.