The bizarreness of the NYC hardcore gay sex scene in the 70s

By the way, I'm not being judgemental. Whatever you're into. It just seems like pre-AIDS NYC was really a sexual wonderland especially if you were into non-vanilla scenes.

Mr. X= Merv Griffin?

Wow, Merv the perv haha.

Great read

There is a documentary called gay sex in the 70s. The gay guys in the cities fucked with complete wild abandon before AIDS.

Interesting stuff. 70s must have been one big liberated orgy to gays. Then everything changed.

A donut scrotum. I've never heard of that before.

The satanic ritualistic scat orgy , who comes up with this shit ??

What a terrible writer.

Most if not all of the individuals named in the article are dead

BUMP!

When you're a cracked out whore like Mapplethorpe and his ilk, really, what is there left to do sexually? Murder someone? Repulsive.

How did the author survive the AIDS epidemic is what I want to know.

Mapplethorpe was a crack head?

Honestly, you really believe nothing like this goes on still today?

Not really, no. Somehow I don't see the Queen bearded little divas in Hells Kitchen getting involved in a Satanic scat scene. They're too busy going to the gym, brunch, and judging each other on what brand of hoodie they're wearing.

Fascinating account. I have 2 of Fritscher's books, "Some Dance to Remember," and an autographed copy of "Rainbow County," one of several collections of his short stories. Read these both years ago, and assumed that, like so many of his contemporaries, he'd been consumed by AIDS.

But no, he's very much alive and still active. Though I tend to think the story of his life is more interesting than his writing.

bump

I made note in some other thread that there were strange parallels between the late 70s and the post-WWI era: the almost desperate need to enter forbidden worlds. I have no doubt that the same behavior is going on today) and probably being filmed and Live-Streamed somewhere. This was from 1927:

His wildness was in full flower during the drunken orgies of the annual Four Arts Balls (Bal des Quatz' Arts). In July 1927, he turned 10 live snakes loose on the dance floor. He wrote in his diary about it later:[7]

I remember two strong young men stark naked wrestling on the floor for the honor of dancing with a young girl... and I remember a mad student drinking champagne out of a skull which he had pilfered front my Library as I had pilfered it a year ago from the Catacombs... and in a corner I watched two savages making love... and beside me sitting on the floor a plump woman with bare breasts absorbed in the passion of giving milk to one of the snakes!

They sound like a bunch of sickos to me.

r20, I agree. I am very happy to be gay, but my tastes are pretty vanilla. Mapplethorpe tried to capture (photographically) a time and a place that was unknown to most people. But he also participated in it, too. As they say, though "There's nothing new under the sun".

I'm going to see "Cruising" on the big screen in two weeks! Will it be sold-out, or just a half dozen or so of us fags?

Paris and Berlin right now - stunningly nasty. Also Paris 10 years ago, way before PrEP. Highway to hell. People think the Germans are the masters of depravity but the French do it nastier, and include creativity, spontaneity and chic.

This is why they hate us.

[quote] ...invited to an exclusive scat, drug, and witchcraft orgy

Some invitations should be declined.

All hands on deck.

I doubt it was Merv Griffin, I mean maybe it was but we have no real clue and Fritscher does not really give any hints. Who were other TV network producer, executives, or head moguls in the 1970s in NYC. That was before my time, so I am not sure who they all were?

Most gay and bisexual men, and most people of whatever sexuality, sex/gender, whatever, are not into scat. I have met men online who were into it and it was so out there and freaky to me-I am not a stranger to kink nor a prude, but scat is up there with a hard NEVER-along with anything illegal, blood, puke, and anything extremely rough and non-consensual, that the appeal of it is not something I understand at all?

I do find it hilarious how wikipedia has Merv Griffin listed as being "pansexual" He was gay and it was not some secret...Gaycrest was kept by him as were others including Tony who's the boss?

I have gay and bisexual friends who were around and in the kink/BDSM scenes in the 1970s and 1980s. They all told me how with Jack Fritscher that you have to take whatever he claims with a ton of salt as it is embellished or not accurate at all, and that even in Drummer magazine articles he would just make up lurid claims and that he is the biggest queen ever.

I read Fritscher's book on Mapplethorpe, it was not nearly as good as the Patricia Morrisroe biography, or the Patti Smith memoir. Since Robert was bisexual I wonder if Lisa Lyons and Patti knew he was into scat and fisting. Lisa when she was not super high on PCP and other drugs had to have known, and Patti probably knew as well as Robert did not keep his kinks a secret...I once joked to an eldergay friend about how I could picture Mapplethorpe doing nasty brown orgies to Diana Ross' love hangover and he said he probably did that with other men into scat.

That way lies death, then as now.

True R10, R13 Fritscher claims he took gamma glubin injections, ate raw eggs, but I think it was just luck, and he probably got ever other disease but HIV.

I have a friend who when HIV/AIDS was very new in the 1980s he got fucked without condoms-as he was used to as most bisexual and gay men were, by multiple men who later told him how they were HIV+ or living with AIDS or he learned they were HIV+ from other bottom men who also had slept with them and became infected, and he has no idea how he was not infected with HIV, as it was not a one time exposure. I have met other men who had the same happen to them and they too have no idea how they were not infected. I doubt they are immune to certain strains the way some people supposedly genetically are; but they are all European, or have no other ancestry. Another older gay friend who came out at the height of the AIDS pandemic in the 1980s said how he has always used condoms for anal sex as it was drilled into his head that if you did not you would get infected with HIV or could unknowingly infect whoever else you had sex without condoms with.

R15 of course it goes on; but scat and other extreme types of sex kinks like the surgery the guy got on his scrotum and other types that you hear about like guys who get castrated, get silicone injected in their cock or balls, get an arm or leg removed, or their teeth pulled, etc. are all out there to say the least...and a lot of the men, women, or whoever into these extreme sex kinks or fetishes either have mental health issues and/or are into meth.

For me London was the most sexually available place I've been: more so than New York or Paris.

Condom use is quite rare these days, it's almost considered quaint.

R30 What’s a condom?

Lol r31

I should say btw that Fritscher exhibits that characteristic shared by self-consciously Catholic and gay authors: he is tiresomely overwritten

R30, even more than Amsterdam and other cities in NL were, or more than Berlin apparently is now? I have friends and family in Benelux and Northern Germany, and they said how everyone just goes to Berlin, and not just for sex but for business, and everything else.

R13 he was a top, mostly the bottom whores and verses died.

While I’m sure it was exciting to push limits, I don’t feel I missed anything by not doing all that. I saw some scenes of depravity and appreciated the freedom of the scene. But grateful I just missed it.

R33 I'm not sure, I'm not old enough to have had sex in the twentieth century. I have heard good stories about Berlin nowadays but haven't experienced it too much yet: but it'd have to be pretty fucking special to beat London.

R34 tops can and did or still do get infected with HIV as well. Your chances are higher for infection if you are a bottom or versatile, but it can still happen if you are a top. I read in a biography about Mapplethorpe that he was a top but he was into extreme sex, which included blood or very heavy SM that involved someone bleeding. In fact today in 2020, there are men who have the foolish and dangerous mentality that being a raw top is safe or that they can continue having unsafe sex with or without the Truvada, and will stay HIV negative. They are in for a nasty surprise, and that sort of mentality is why HIV is still super high among bisexual and gay men today.

What all did you see as scenes of depravity R35? My friend who is in his late 60s described how when a leather bar he and his friends would go to became an orgy after hours and guys would get fucked on the pool table, sucked at the bar, or how when the bar was open for business how you could walk into the men's room or back room and take your pick of any number of men who would suck you or who wanted you to get sucked and that you could do this discreetly; but how most people would just meet someone and go home with them or out to their car to have sex there. My friend said he theorizes that he never got infected with HIV because he was a lot more into oral sex, and was very picky who he had anal sex with. By the time what was known then as GRIDS or the new "gay cancer" and later HIV/AIDS he started to use condoms as soon as safer sex for bisexual and gay men was invented and it was said that condoms should be used for anal sex. He never had other types of diseases as he is very picky about who he has sex with and said how the guys back then who did pretty much anything sexual with any guy they met who wanted to have sex did not survive. Out of all of his friends and ex-partners from the 1970s and 1980s he and only one other friend who is a year or two older than him, are the only ones who survived.

"or that they can continue having unsafe sex with or without the Truvada, and will stay HIV negative."

Can you post links to the scientific papers and studies backing up your claim about the ineffeciveness of Truvada?

Matt Smith was way to ugly to play Mapplethorpe.

Anyways this sounds like the kind of crap that Enty who is the Alex Jones of celeb gossip would peddle to his Illuminati/Satanic panic believing QAnon followers.

What is a witchcraft orgy? Does it involve broomsticks?

My next door neighbor is in his late 70’s. He went to the mineshaft- I believe that’s the name of the bar. He wasn’t into leather so only went once. He said he only lasted about 30 minutes because a bartender jumped over the bar and began fisting someone & then went back to making drinks without washing his hands. He said another guy was on his knees in the bathroom drinking piss. Was too much for him. He was all about going to the baths & getting blowjobs in these cargo trucks in the meat packing district. He said the leather boys & the A gays were the first to die from Aids. But wow! a scat ,drug & witchcraft party beats his story.

[quote] For me London was the most sexually available place I've been: more so than New York or Paris.

In my observations vis-à-vis the 2010s: Berlin, Bogotá, private invite parties in LA. Not necessarily in that order.

Do tell more about the private invite parties R42.

Was this at your friend Bryan's?

I obviously can't speak for everyone, but the scat queens I have known (that is, the few people who have confessed that kink to me) seemed to me these stunted 'naughty little boys' who delighted in the taboo. Yes, Captain Obvious makes a discovery. And it was more of less a "lifestyle" for them: it's not like they did this once or twice to scratch the itch and then took up hiking and bird-watching the following year.

I’ve attended private BDSM parties that got very “dark”.

As someone mentioned upthread, I realized that many in the scene were genuinely mentally ill and/or on very powerful drugs.

I wasn’t going to end up permanently scarred, nor was I willing to do that to others. I’m the end, the further you push or are pushed, that’s where it ends up - physical boundaries that I don’t feel are safe to be explored or pushed, in rooms filled with total strangers, who are bleeding, pissing, and shitting themselves or on the floors.

That sort of thing should be highly controlled if you’re into it, and the more people, the less controlled it becomes.

Personally, I am not into feces, piss, blood, or vomit. And I’m not into accidents that could land me in prison, either.

People in these scenes had stopped feeling. I still feel, and easily so.

[quote] At the link below is an account by a contemporary of Robert Mapplethorpe who, when visiting Mapplethorpe in NYC, got invited to an exclusive scat, drug, and witchcraft orgy in a tony townhouse on the Upper East Side. It all starts on page 5, any guesses as to who the participants were?

I would assume the Castevets, Laura-Louise, Mrs. Gimore, Dr. Sapirstein, and Dr. Shand, who played the flute.

I will never understand the fascination or desire for scat or piss play... ugh, so gross. Such a massive turn-off. Disgusting. Not sexy or sexual in the least.

That's not "hard core" it's just fucking sick.

Yes, a lot of it is mechanical, joyless, and completely un-erotic.

When 18yos are gaping themselves as wide as they can for their reddit followers, I think it's a safe bet that there are still plenty of people out there (of all sexual preferences) trying to push their sexual limits. The only difference is it's everywhere now and not just in a handful of big city gay bars. The DL maiden-aunts never tire of clucking their tongues at the sexual outlaws, do they? R34, did you not read the passage where the author was impatient to douche so he was ready for his visit to Mineshaft? I think he avoided AIDS because he was lucky.

[quote] Was this at your friend Bryan's?

Yuck, no. Men only, thanks.

I was around then and not impressed or interested in the "wilder" group shit and the desperation to keep pushing for more thrills, spills and outrage.

To me it was both boring and a sign of issues where sex was peripheral to the main problems.

Not the smaller group gatherings, which were fun and still human. But the shit and piss troughs, the double fisting twinks in slings, the bleach enemas and cutting and scrotum damage and object rapes - that ain't sex.

And I also know how uninhibited guys in groups can get into a kind-of mob-fuck mood, which can be a lot of fun and very pleasurable. But in its best spontaneous forms that's a young-guys' thing.

[quote] Do tell more about the private invite parties [R42].

Offshoots of parties listed on sites like MenPlayLA. Afterhours house parties hosted after the clubs close. I've been to some wild, erotic house parties, but like others have hinted above, many other scenes have an element of robotization in some of the guys participating (probably due to chemsex, which I find very offputting. They're there but they're not really "there). These days, I find it much preferable to hook up in more intimate ways, with a hot guy or a couple at most instead of some Caligula scene). To each his own.

Extreme kink like the stuff listed at OP has never been my thing, but it's definitely out there if that's your thing. Seek and you shall find.

Yeah - the split balls is disgusting. And the scat. It really isn’t about eroticism at that point. Just mental health issues and childhood traumas.

[quote] He said he only lasted about 30 minutes because a bartender jumped over the bar and began fisting someone & then went back to making drinks without washing his hands.

R41 cracked me up! What did he call that there cocktail? The Fistini?

[quote] I was around then and not impressed or interested in the "wilder" group shit

So to speak.

[quote] The DL maiden-aunts never tire of clucking their tongues at the sexual outlaws, do they?

Yes, only maiden aunts ever click their tongues over scat, drug and witchcraft orgies.

I would still love to hear about what exactly is involved in a witchcraft orgy? Do they involve spells and cradling bubbling cauldrons?

It sounded like crazy times.

Mapplethorpe was a freak.

R59 This is how you do “Mapplethorpe was a freak.”

I still love the idea of Senator Jesse Helms's wife seeing that photo at r60, and shrieking, "Lord Almighty, Jesse! I'm not believin' this!"

(That was the photo that did it, btw.)

R61 It wasn’t this one?

And people used to complain that Quentin Crisp gave gays a bad name....

She did give gays a bad name.

R38 there have been guys who were on turvada who took it daily (no pun) who wound up HIV+. It is supposed to be used with condoms but very few people actually do this...so I guess these guys want Hep C.

She had more integrity than the shit-eating crowd, R64.

[quote]I was around then and not impressed or interested in the "wilder" group shit and the desperation to keep pushing for more thrills, spills and outrage.

To me it was both boring and a sign of issues where sex was peripheral to the main problems.

Not the smaller group gatherings, which were fun and still human. But the shit and piss troughs, the double fisting twinks in slings, the bleach enemas and cutting and scrotum damage and object rapes - that ain't sex.

And I also know how uninhibited guys in groups can get into a kind-of mob-fuck mood, which can be a lot of fun and very pleasurable. But in its best spontaneous forms that's a young-guys' thing.

Bleach enemas?!! That's taking "chem sex" to a whole new level do these guys want to put holes into their lower digestive tract or have a death wish? I have encountered men who were alcoholics or polydrug addicts who were bottoms who did the extremely dangerous enemas with alcohol, meth, and other drugs, and I would be very surprised if these guys are still alive. What is the weirdest or most odd thing you have heard of someone putting up their ass or someone else's ass? I know people who used fruits or vegetables as a dildo and got hurt and bled so they never did that again. One bottom I know claims he can take a baseball bat up his ass and I have no idea why anyone would want to do this? I used to know a guy who is a total bottom who showed me dildos that were as long as both of my arms combined, and a very long and thick dildo that was as long and as thick as a 2 liter bottle of Coke.

I have done some W/S or sex involving piss but it was because two of my ex's were into it. It ranged from doing mutual masturbation together and then pissing the cum away in a shower before we took a shower together, to once pissing on another ex's body and in in his mouth since he wanted this done before we took a shower together. Other times it was with a bisexual friend after we had been drinking beer and mixed drinks and we watched each other piss.

That's true R52 the amputation fetish is so weird. I am friends with a guy who literally came of age and grew up as a young adult going to the mineshaft, Anvil, and all of the bars and baths, the piers, dirty bookstores, tearooms, etc. in NYC in the late 1970s and very early 1980s. He wound up HIV+ and is on meds but said how the extremes of men, women, or whoever that wants to lose an arm or leg, have permanent scarring or burns, castration, etc. for a "master" or who want their asshole so stretched out from being fisted so that it is like the event horizon of a black hole or akin to waving out a porthole was too extreme and craziness. He was into meth-never daily just using it on weekends- then and other drugs like MDA but said how had he continued with that scene and using drugs he would have died very young either from the drugs or HIV/AIDS. My friend misses his friends who are no longer alive but he does not miss the drugs, craziness, or the extreme sex scene.

I have heard from another friend that is a geneticist that people can get multiple strains of HIV or get re-infected with the strain or type they have, so I wonder how many of the extreme BDSM and fisting wound up getting multiple strains of it, or if they were re-infected with the strain they had?

R53 I honestly wonder what fucked up stuff one would have to go through to be into scat? I have met gay men who said they had sex with animals and all I could think was WTF poor animals that you raped...

The people who I have met who were into scat said how they always had the desire to do it and my reaction was just one of being completely perplexed as I have no desire to ever do any of that and do not understand the appeal of it at all. I had a guy who I dated or slept with very briefly in my youth-we just did oral together only, want me to help him cheat on his husband and cum and piss up his ass, and pull out so he could suck my cock and go ass to mouth and I told him that all of this was never going to happen and cut off contact.

Damn, some of you have really seen some shit!

Gross

R65 There have been literally a tiny handful of cases in which Truvada as Prep has failed for different reasons which are hypothesised in the scientific literature. However, the rate of failure of condoms, and the rate of HIV infection of condom-users, is much higher. People generally didn't advocate celibacy back when guys were using condoms only.

"Always he was a good man worth loving."

HAH! What an idiot. Mapplethorpe was scum. After being diagnosed with AIDS he continued to rampage through the gay bars, not giving a damn about infecting other people. This is from Patricia Morrisroe's biography of hin:

And explode he did, rampaging through the gay bars to pick up black men. Mapplethorpe had confided to several friends that he blamed a black man for infecting him with the AIDS virus, but given his boast of having sex with an estimated thousand men, he couldn't possibly know for sure. Still, he approached his task like an avenging angel, picking up one black man after another, with offers of cocaine, then baiting them with the word "nigger." One man screamed at him to stop, but when Mapplethorpe still kept repeating the word, the man grabbed his clothes and ran out the door. "You're evil", the man shouted in parting. "EVIL!"

R65 Give links or you are fucking lying like a cunt. Only three breakthroughs have PROVEN to have happened so shut the fuck up with your judgement.

.....bleach enemas?!?!?

[quote] exclusive scat, drug, and witchcraft orgy

Thats a hard pass for me too as well R25.

I am unashamedly vanilla, but damn, Mapplethorpe was a pretty man. Sounds like cuddling, kissing and gentle sensual and delicate lovemaking wouldnt be his thng though

Robert smiled at her and she smiled back. “We ought,” she said, “to deport all you boys.” “Yeah,” McNenny said, “but who’d do your hair?”

Robert smiled at her and she smiled back. “We ought,” she said, “to deport all you boys.” “Yeah,” McNenny said, “but who’d do your hair?”

I think the romanticization of the 70s gay scene forgets that gay acceptance/rights was limited. Maybe tolerance in cities - but the idea of gays as something other than a subject of humor or digest was limited. The gay ghettos allowed for sexual freedom - but they were just that “ghettos” - outside of them, holding hands on the street could have gotten you killed. I’ll gladly trade my right to have extreme public sex for the right to marry.

I have been married and it is overrated.

Speaking of bleach enemas:

[quote] but the idea of gays as something other than a subject of humor or digest was limited.

???

"Dear Life in These United States..."

Even Dan Savage, who thinks every other kink between willing participants of legal age is acceptable, draws the line at scat.

Love how the author of that article is so self-congratulatory about his writing skills when his writing sounds like a bad fanfiction

There seems to be a real element of self-hatred in the more extreme expressions of sexuality. You'll never convince me that anyone who wants to be whipped, beaten, pissed upon, and shit upon has healthy self-esteem. Mapplethorpe was beautiful, rich, and famous, but deep down he must have hated himself.

I find no appeal to Mapplethorpe. Seemed like a self-promoter more than an artist. Everything I read was about him ingratiating himself with people who could help him. His photograph is more shock value for the mainstream than art. Peter Hujar was more interesting - but less self-promoting so he is not as well known.

These things still happen in private, because a great deal of humanity is so self-conscious and insecure that they are desperate to feel better about themselves by being part of something that sets them apart from everybody else to give them a sense of superiority. Depraved sex fetishes (like scat) and secret Satanic Cults gives these people a special thrill of being worthy and "special". Same thing with Nazi, or Nazi like, ideologies.

In the past closeted gays were eager to escape their own self loathing trying to fit in with the movers and shakers. Why do you think so many conservatives are closet cases? They wanted to have power in a society where gays had none. They wanted to matter so desperately and sold their soul in the process and became evil, self loathing homophobes.

Social climbing guys like Mapplethorpe knew how to self promote and market themselves.

R78 that's very true. A friend of mine who is gay, in his late 60s, and who came of age in Southern CA in the late 1960s and early 1970s said how besides a few areas in the city of Los Angeles in the 1970s, that most bisexual and gay men in the 1970s and early 1980s were discreet.

R83 given the massive quantities of drugs the author consumed it is doubtful he remembers the 1970s at all. He could not handle a very low dose of LSD, what a wimp.

R72 I also remember reading in that biography about how he would openly call black men the n-word and how he and his very wealthy white friends would go to bars for bisexual and gay black men, and say things like, "if a black man is educated, has a career, etc. then he's not 'black' and is unattractive to us!' or the racist myth that bi and gay black men have super large cocks, are all tops/very sexually aggressive, etc.

R83 - Thank you - I thought the writing was atrocious. Then I looked him up and he has had some success with his writing career.

It sounded like a long-winded DL post, not a polished, edited final version. The writing was just piss poor and some of it sounds fictional. If it wasn't fiction, he could have written it in a more of a matter-of-fact way.

Also, the author acts like he was some dreamboat - he was a solid 5 on a good day. A nebbish to most people. It's hard to believe Mapplethorpe was drooling over him - or any of the other men at the party.

Maybe he has a great personality or a big dick. And maybe his other writing is good. But this was a hard to believe train wreck.

Mapplethorpe was a user - he was able to get ahead because of his 'benefactor' Sam Wagstaff.

He gave him $500,000 back in 1972 (a lot of fucking money back then) to buy his studio. This and other money from Sam allowed Mapplethorpe entry to art and celebrity / socialite worlds without having to think about money.

So he did some black and whites of people in bondage? I'm not impressed. A massive asshole whose celebrity eclipsed his actual talent.

Very true R89, Wagstaff was the sugar daddy.

I know someone who was in the NYC 1970s art scene. He said that Mapplethorpe was bisexual, addicted to various different drugs-coke, MDA, and basically almost everything else, into scat and fisting and extreme BDSM like the type that is borderline abuse or gets out of control fast, and a satanist...Patti had to know all of this if not in the 1970s or 1980s then for sure before she wrote her book about living with Robert as his girlfriend.

He also wouldn't let his younger brother Edward, also a talented photographer, use the family name. He said HE'D made Mapplethorpe famous, so only he should use it. Edward had to use Maxey, their mother's maiden name, for his first big exhibition. He uses Mapplethorpe now, though.

The way he treated his brother says all you need to know about him. Banned home from using the name and didn’t want him doing photography for fear it would distract from him. Not a fan of Mapplethorpe. His photography is shock porn.

How the hell can you ban someone from using their own name?

Robert was his brother's mentor and professional support, and Edward also hoped to be included in Robert's will (he was already sick at the time). Edward could have used the name, but at the risk of pissing off his older, richer, far more influential brother.

mapplethorpe was a bit of an asshole, but that’s no secret. Didn’t Jack Fritcher create “Drummer” magazine??? Quentin Crisp had horrible body odor.

No, John Embry and Jeanne Barney-a heterosexual woman who apparently once fisted a male cop from LAPD or so she claims, founded drummer. Jack Fritscher took over and like all narcissists takes credit for things that other people did.

Listen, if you stick your dick in enough shitters, eventually you’re gonna smell or see shit. You’re smelling shit while feeling pleasure, of course one night start to like it. I personally don’t mind fucking a shitty hole. I don’t want shit in my MOUTH, but I’ve smeared it on a few guys. I like seeing people be “gross.” Depravity turns me on.

damn R99 you so nasty! The men I met into scat said they wanted to *puke* eat it, have someone shit on them, or other disgusting and crazy things.

What other sexually depraved things have you done? A dirty hole is nasty to me...but I do not even rim men.

R100, yeah I feel you. The smell of shit is an utter dick wilter for me

It’s not very hard to have a clean hole. Poop is water soluble. You don’t even need soap.

Just wash your ass already.

Agreed R101.

"mapplethorpe was a bit of an asshole, but that’s no secret."

"A bit?" He was a stupendous asshole, truly an awful human being. No wonder he and Patti Smith clicked. They were both crazy, totally self-absorbed cunts. Can you imagine the two of them having sex? I'm surprised, given their narcissism, that they didn't film themselves doing it. I wouldn't have been any less disgusting than a lot of other things Mapplethorpe produced, like the photos of him with a whip up his hairy asshole.

How DARE YOU forget about ME! R104 *smokes Angel Dust while flexing muscles* I took Patti's place as Robert's girlfriend.

Fritscher is your typical narcissist-not that Mapplethorpe wasn't one as well, and he was just FBs with Mapplethorpe it's not like they ever lived together like Patti and Lisa did, yet nobody should be surprised Jack Fritscher is into scat and satanism.

[quote]with a whip up his hairy asshole.

Now, flowers up his asshole and he would have had art.

haha yes R107

Luke Skywalker is gay, and was very well known in NYC backroom bar circles where men would go to leather or dive bars and have sex in total or basically pitch black darkness in backrooms; and likes SM as he would go to the mineshaft before being famous; but it is too bad Carrie did not out him, and instead outed Revolta which everyone with a brain already has known about for decades.

Luke is or was into S/M, and paid Larry Townsend to be his "Master" for a weekend but I read this in a book about Casey Donovan who had done the same and Townsend told him this.

R109 I think you might mean Mark Hamill the guy that played him

I wonder if this townhouse is still owned by the same man and if he’s still influential. Witchcraft? Interesting. But wouldn’t a scat orgy ruin all the fine furnishings? Even if you put plastic down?

Sounds like the kind of scene the old crones at The Townhouse Bar would probably be knowledgeable about. I’ll have to ask about it when and if it ever reopens.

Well yes R110 but I was not sure if we can really actually name names, or if it would get a thread locked/deleted?

Like the poster upthread, I don't understand how a satanic scat party works in one's home without needing a HAZMAT crew afterwards.

My partner was a cab driver in the late 70s and told me he brought Mark H. to the Mineshaft once, and Mark laughed and said "Shhh" when my partner recognized him from Star Wars.

That's funny R114 the book that mentions Mark being Larry Townsend's slave is Boy in the Sand: Casey Donovan, All-American Sex Star, but Casey/Cal also was Townsend's slave and was told that Mark was a slave directly by Townsend.

Anything you could imagine someone doing sexually, and even stuff that is crazy and a bit too much to me such as someone piercing or cutting, or burning their genitals or nipples or castration, went on in NYC and in all major cities on the East and West Coast.

THIS IS WHY THEY HATE US!

Why would anybody want to have a guy's arm thrust up into his rectum, all the way up to the elbow? Why would anyone want to tongue some stranger's asshole, or eat his shit or drink his piss? What pleasure is there to be derived from things like that? It all seems so sordid and desperate. And lonely.

I doubt you'd feel lonely with most of an arm inside you. I don't think I'll try it out. But I'm sceptical.

Yeah R116 and R118 I just cant get my head around that shit. I can see why R117 would say that, but each to their own, it absolutely isnt for me at all. I cant do pain, but I am pretty vanilla though

Well I can see why someone might want to try that sort of thing once, or a few times, what's life without a bit of adventure? Or breaking a few rules, or testing a few limits?

But if you don't want to have sex unless it involves degradation, blood, or someone's elbow up your ass, then maybe your life is on the wrong track.

Fisting and watersports or piss, are a lot more common than people want to admit. It's even in lots of porn videos now, and not just the ones where it is a video of men only doing fisting or pissing on each other.

It's gross, and it's not sexy, and it's an instant boner-killer, R122.

THIS is why they hate us..

ewwwwwwwwwww

Even for most bisexual and gay men who are into various sex kinks and BDSM the satanic scat orgy would be a fuck no.

Jack Fritscher is a narcissist, tawdry, and basically rewrites bisexual and gay history to suit his own agendas but he has been doing this for decades, claiming he was the very first gay man to be into S/M or leathersex in the USA, etc.

HIV toned down the crazy kinky sex. Then ARVs and porn brought it back in an arms race for eyeballs, mostly in the past decade.

Now everybody claims to be into fisting, watersports, BDSM, etc. But the few who actually practice it are few, mostly older, many using/abusing crystal meth. R122 should understand that in the modern kink renaissance, the porn came first, then the interest.

These types are thirsty for tops. When I'm on the apps, I get hit up by them. I'm very vanilla and consequently I turn down all offers for fetishistic sex.

I wonder who was the first guy ever fisted? Did the Romans practice it?

R128 probably, or maybe certain Ancient Greeks in certain city states?

Which apps are these R127? What is your age? I am from Generation X. I was on scruff and grindr and had crazy guys message me, wanting me to go meet a random stranger, fuck them raw, and I just wound up deleting the apps after 5 mins as I am not into unsafe sex or hook ups. I do or have practiced BDSM with women and men for almost two decades; but I have never fisted anyone as it seems dangerous a bit too extreme. I read a book by the filmmaker William E. Jones that was basically a biographical memoir of his teenage and young adult years, and how he moved to Los Angeles. It has fisting in it and William E. Jones claims that 'fisting is safer sex' or that 'it's safe to fist without gloves' and neither of these things are true at all. Friends into fisting said how bleeding usually happens or will happen.

A friend who is into fisting as a top as in he did it to two men he was dating/sleeping with because they wanted it, said how it takes hours to stretch out someone's asshole and that it is not like in porn which is edited or fisting erotic fiction where they do it way too fast. He said it's basically playing with someone's ass until they can take your hand or arm, and that fisting bottoms like it because of how it stretches out their asshole and how it feels more realistic and intimate than using a large dildo. Neither myself or my friend have used crystal meth. I can have vanilla sex and generally do not practice BDSM or sex kinks with strangers as the few times I did with the few hook ups I have had, I had submissive men and women become obsessed and stalk me.

I do agree with you about porn where for awhile after HIV/AIDS in the 1980s and 1990s and up until the very early 2000s it was rare to see fisting, piss, BDSM, etc. in porn but now it is in lots of porn. I have seen it in porn where it was not advertised or known to be a sex kink or fetish/BDSM porn.

I like recreational sex R122 / R129, and I don't shy away from it. I'm Gen X also. I'm experienced but not kinky. I have had offers to be a professional dom (get paid for it, do sex parties, etc.), but again, I'm not into it at all. Your first paragraph is rather peculiar. Somebody your age would be quite familiar with the notion of casual sex, app or not, and would not discuss it in the peculiar 3rd-hand way you do. You do BDSM but are surprised that people want to bareback or have casual sex? Again, peculiar distinctions you make.

Fisting bores me. Another paraphilia, non-sex that has somehow become incorporated into sex. Have done it a few times as a top. Yawn. No thanks.

And you are correct about subs - and kinky people in general - being cray, stalking and otherwise behaving badly. Happened to me a couple times.

My Johnny was not the marrying type. He was always a good boy. He would do anything for anyone.

Another bullshit thread. One blocked poster has over 30 posts in this thread, most of them of the maiden aunt anti-sex type. But what is most telling is that the blocked single poster changes up the replies, from stupid shit like "EEEWWWWW" and "this is why they hate us" - which she says at least 3 times in this thread - to detailed replies discussing various written accounts of historical sex parties in NYC, and a couple mentions that s/he does S&M but doesn't describe in any detail. Then she asks me for personal information like age and apps used. What a loon.

A person who is sexually sophisticated enough to do/talk about consensual BDSM but not participate in orgies. Makes several sex-shaming comments about rather benign activities like rimming. Vacillates between titillation and vilification.

Who could it be?

R130 I am not surprised people want bareback sex but I use condoms always, get tested, and I avoid having sex with people who want it bare/raw/unsafe or who are on Truvada. For S/M I enjoy spanking, using a leather crop, paddles, various different types of floggers, whips, tit clamps, a leather belt, or my hand on a sub's ass. For bondage with or without discipline I enjoy using handcuffs, rope, or just my hands. I have been to 'orgies' but they were 3 ways both with male couples, myself, a woman, and another man, and also have had offers to do SM/leathersex/fetish based porn or get paid as a professional dominant but like you I have no desire to do this at all. I prefer meeting people who I practice BDSM or various sex kinks with in public in bars, or via mutual friends and very rarely online via apps/websites. I am not into fisting, have never done it but I have met men who are into it who said I have excellent hands and arms for it but if I am going to put something up someone's ass or pussy I will put my cock up there or a vibrator/dildo instead. Yes condoms are used.

I agree with you about people into kink, BDSM, or fetish based sex who are submissive, masochists, or slave types can sometimes be crazy. I had one male masochist stalk me and want me to move across the country and live in his city and I told him it was never happening, and blocked his ass. Other women who are submissive and into bondage or discipline, or S/M who I had hooked up with and we had agreed it was just a hook up-wound up stalking me.

R132 I speak, read, and write several languages so that is why I switch tenses, and write . Fisting sort of interested me in that I would watch it in porn not to masturbate to it but out of amazement. I do not have any real desire to do it to anyone as it seems like a bit too much and dangerous. It is not being 'sex negative' to say that having unsafe anal sex, or that you are not into scat, fisting, or rimming, or the extreme sex the OP wrote about. I have written about doing S/M, bondage, and B&D before here on DL. Not everyone is into the same things sexually; but scat is disgusting and anyone into that deserves to be called out as being nasty, and if someone wants to do scat, take cum loads up their ass as a cumdump, or get their ass fisted until they bleed that's their choice but the majority of us bisexual and gay men are not into this and it is not "sex shaming" to say this or to want to avoid people who are into unsafe sex, scat, etc. I'm sure you will claim this is being 'sex negative', 'kink shaming', or something else but sex involving shit or fecal matter is disgusting and nasty. But maybe you are into this as you are being offended that others are not or that we say how scat is disgusting, since well it is.

Jack Fritscher the man mentioned above by the OP is not any sort of historian. Given the large quantities of drugs he used back in the 1960s and 1970s I doubt he can remember much, if anything. As someone else above wrote his life is much more interesting than any of his writings are which are very embellished and exaggerated; but he is your typical narcissist.

I am far from a prude, 'maiden aunt', etc. I have practised BDSM for decades and did have offers to do SM/Fetish porn when it was made in SF; but doing porn or any type of sex for pay would take the fun out of it for me.

I prefer to know someone and date them a bit first before we do any of it. The men and women on the apps and websites like Grindr, Scruff, fetlife, etc. are very desperate, lots of fake profiles, stalker types that cannot take no for an answer, people fucked up on hard drugs, into unsafe sex with random strangers, etc. so I don't use the apps or websites. I have a friend that's gay, vanilla, and a total bottom and he loves to hook up with as many top men as possible so the apps work great for him. Again, this is his choice and what he is into sexually.

You must be new here, 'This is why they hate us' is a classic datalounge joke/response.

R1 extreme sex, or non-vanilla sex still goes on today. Now you do not even have to go out to a bar, sex club/sauna, etc. to find a partner into it. There are any number of apps or websites. I became sexually active when HIV/AIDS was very new, and at the start of the internet in the 1980s with now primitive BBS etc. I miss going out to bars, dance clubs, etc. I was never into saunas/bath houses but many are.

The Mapplethorpe biography by Patricia Morrisroe goes into this extreme sex in the 1970s and early 1980s; but keep in mind this was in NYC and in certain areas, and despite people claiming it was a non-stop orgy unless someone was really sex crazy or sex mad, most bisexual and gay men in the 1970s and 1980s even ones who were out were a lot more discreet as you could still get fired from work, completely disowned by family, and refused housing, or murdered then etc. then.

I know bisexual and gay men who were part of the leathersex scene in NYC with the leather bars, the mineshaft, and men's saunas like the St. Mark's baths. They all said how for them even before HIV/AIDS was known about they were careful or picky who they had sex with, tended to prefer oral sex, would sometimes do anal sex as tops, and they avoided the guys that were basically the "So many men, so little time!" type that would basically do anything with anyone at any time. My bisexual friends who went to the mineshaft and other S/M clubs said that at the time it was fun but they would mainly watch, get sucked off, or piss on someone but they did not get into the gang bangs or fisting, and they all said how the mineshaft was a product of its time but that the baths were much more enjoyable as people were less stuck up and all types of men went there, not just men into leathersex/BDSM.

[quote] but they would mainly watch, get sucked off, or piss on someone

Sounds like DL.