A friend told me today that his life is all debt

[quote]The Range Rover, the condo, the Cartier watches, the clothes, the trips, the meals out--all debt. Why the fuck would anyone do that to themselves?

The material trappings may be his interpretation of showing love to himself, and expecting the law of attraction to bring the means to pay for them.

Either he thinks that his life isn't worth living unless he can enjoy the trappings of wealth, or that life isn't worth living unless he can impress other people with the trappings of wealth.

If he isn't taking anyone else down with him, I say it's his life and his money.

Many,Many. Urban gay males are caught in this. Social pressure to be an "A" gay. If you're not a 10 you can compensate by pretending to be wealthy.

Living in LA turned me into this person. Buying material things to impress people. It was awful. I declared bankruptcy, moved to NYC to start a new life and couldn't be happier.

Does he live in Atlanta? Although a Jag would be more typical there, this scenario is pretty common.

It's more common than you think. Credit cards are a trap. They want you to max them out and pay interest forever. If you are a good friend, then help him to focus on paying off the debt and not adding to it.

[quote] I told him I was shocked that he would tell me this since most people are very secretive about their fiances

He has a secret fiancé too??

Is this your friend, op?

The thing is: unless they want to use you, people don't give a damn about your expensive looks. They are too self-involved. The fantasy that you're some kind of "imaginary stage/catwalk" is something you should have grown out of by now.

^ "on some kind of.."

If you guys aren't saving for retirement then you need to get off your asses and start doing it. Retirement is fantastic.

I've been clicking around here looking for som laughs but this is unexpectedly serious. It goes on way more than you think, OP. I knew a guy in LA who had the house in the hills and the S class Mercedes but every bit of it was fake. There was no furniture in his house, he could barely afford to keep the power on, he went to parties because he couldn't afford groceries and he never answered the phone because it was always a collection agency. Every single aspect of his life was for show. You ought to be flattered your friend is being real with you. In the end, a friend isn't someone you're fabulous with, it's someone who'll help you move, or wait in the ER because you have no family in 1000 miles. And listen to R11. It makes me almost sick to think of the expensive clothes I wore once, when I could have put the money in real estate. No fleeting glamor is worth financial insecurity in old age. And you might not ever be glamorous but you sure as hell will be old one day.

Hell,maybe he has it figured out. I work with a woman like that, and she leases nice cars, takes endless trips, dines out, dresses well--she's on her second bankruptcy since I've known her. Just clears the board and starts over every few years.

She has a better life than I do, and it's not like they carve your credit score onto your tombstone or anything.

R13 Did this woman graduate from Trump U?

I thought it takes 7 to 10 years to come back from a bankruptcy?

I worked with a woman who was in IT and was making six figures. I'm not sure if she declared bankruptcy but if not she was always on the brink of it. She refinanced her house many times to take cash out of it. She quit her secure Federal government job during the high tech boom only to get laid off 9 months later- she had been a contractor for 20 years for the Feds then was finally hired on as a Fed a year before she quit. She came back as a contractor with shitty health care and shitty sick leave, vacation time and a shitty 401k plan that she never contributed to anyway. She also gave up her pension. She got laid off last year at age 64 and now drives for Uber. It's really sad, she will probably be homeless before long. She's a nice person and was an excellent worker. I feel bad for her, but it took a lifetime of bad decisions to get to this point.

I was afraid she would hit me up for money at some point. It wouldn't do any good to help her, she dug herself in too deep.

That is sad r16. I thought it took several years to recover from bankruptcy too.

[quote]I declared bankruptcy, moved to NYC to start a new life and couldn't be happier.

I'm sure all the people who paid for your debts are happy that you couldn't be happier.

I know a guy who did this twice. Traveled all over Europe, yada, yada, yada.

Meanwhile, my single female friends struggle to pay their bills.

r8, that is one stubby, chubby little body.

Your story is why I stick it out with my uninspiring government job, R16. I could probably make more in the private sector, and it was tempting to quit and go work in the booming petroleum sector, back when it actually was still booming. But I have enough years in that it's the closest thing to a secure job as there is nowadays. The thought of ending up like your coworker, even though her position is as you say the result of years of bad decisions, is nightmarish.

Most everyone is in debt at least 50% or so of the world if not more...it is what it is.

r22, for some it is by choice. If debit is avoidable it is usually wise to avoid it, although Trump would argue otherwise.

OP I was in debt for years; in my mid 40s, two big projects came along in my line of work that paid extremely well; one sandblasted the majority of my debt and the other paid the rest off and allowed me to live in the black for a year.

Now, I'm in trouble again, but am fighting to stay out of it.

Your friend (or are you your friend?) could sell everything, get a cheap single apartment and try to pay all the debt down; not sure what field of work is involved with the person. But try to help him pay it off, change his life and find some peace of mind.

I know a bankruptcy attorney who has himself declared bankruptcy -- twice. So has most every member of his family except his parents -- we're talking two sisters, one brother, one nephew and three nieces.

The weird thing is, none of these people had anything to show for their debt -- no nice house or cars or clothes or trips or anything, really. As far as I can tell, the only extravagance the attorney indulges in is loads of QVC crap.

The other thing is, they keep their bankruptcies a secret from their parents/grandparents, who would be horrified.

r3 Absolutely, and they treat anything less than a 7-8 like dirt under their feet while they try to play the grande dame on credit. I've seen it time and time again.

"But try to help him pay it off, change his life and find some peace of mind."

You are fucking retarded. Did you miss the part about the friend's debt being due to things like a Range Rover and Cartier watches, etc?

Why the fuck should the OP help pay off that type of bullshit? It's not like the debt is from medical bills or some other type of misfortune.

People who suffer from depression have been known to plunge themselves into debt because purchasing something extravagant lifts their spirits. Of course, it's a temporary sense of "happiness", so they keep buying to sustain the sense of well-being.

My brother has been in debt all his adult life and yet has nothing to show for it and still lives at home with my mom. I don't know what the fuck he's doing with all the cash he borrows and all the credit he uses--aside from cars.

And no, I don't know why he does it to himself. We barely talk because of his financial issues. Naturally he has "borrowed" money from everyone in the family. And borrowed is in quotes because he never gets around to the paying back part.

R29, drugs?

OP, tell your friend to cutback on those orange tans and maybe he can save a few bucks to pay back the Chinese and Goldman Sachs for what he borrowed.

R30, yeah, that's been considered. He's lived with my mom all his life and he's in his 40's now. If he was using, I'm hoping my mom would know. Then again, she still defends him and thinks I'm too harsh on him. Kinda unravels the mystery of why he's the way he is, eh?

I have $3,750 in debt. Most people don't even know exactly how much they owe. My goal is to pay it off by next Spring. I don't know if debt is related to depression. It seems to be more about a fantasy that you can have or get anything you want, or people use it as a rainy day fund, which is a mistake.

This isn't uncommon and if you look closely at your friends you'll see it more often. I have sizable debt, but long ago realized there's no way out of it so I'm kinda whatever about it. I'm never going to get married, I'm never going to come anywhere close to being able to buy a car or a house so I have shitty credit. Oh well.

You don't have to have shitty credit just because you're poor. Good credit gives you options, and a way out of catastrophe. It's piece of mind, a cushion against hardship that even a relatively poor person can have.

A dear friend of mine lived like this. The GFC happened didnt it. And he killed himself. Still shattered. Thats my view on living in debt.

Sorry R35 but it's really easy to opine about credit when you have good credit. When you don't and you can't afford anything and you know the credit card company's are dying to watch you fuck up so they can charge you more fees and interest, well it's not fun. I called my credit card company once and asked if I could pay my bill a day late to avoid a $40 fee. The collector (who probably works in India for 3 cents an hour) just kept asking me why I couldn't pay it on time. Over and over again. Fuck them.

The entire credit industry needs to be revamped and regulated. Too many lives are ruined because of easy access to credit and credit reporting.

I always paid my bills and responsibly managed my debt all my adult life. Never used credit cards for living expenses but had them "for emergencies," and also because having no credit is just as bad as having bad credit, and I want to buy a house someday.

Cue to 11 months ago: I lost my job with very short notice. I had savings but they were quickly depleted because my rent was crazy (lived in SF). By month 6 I'm nearly out of money, no job and using credit cards to buy groceries and gas. Three months later, still no job, unemployment ran out, and I move in with my brother in NY. I'm a couple months late on credit card payments and getting constant collection calls. I'm not a bad person, I'm just in a bad place financially. Now my credit -- which for 25 years was perfect -- is ruined within three months. Goodbye house, better insurance rates, some jobs.

Credit is pure evil.

When someone lives far beyond their means, there is usually a deep seeded ego problem as well as fear involved.

There's a 12 step program called Debtors Anonymous for them. Requires them to go through the 12 steps and get the personality growth that comes along with it. Mainly learning how to be honest about their situation and requiring them to do that all of the time. Anyone who is living in an expensive house with a Mercedes and can't afford them is terrified the world will find out how broke they are.

Also, someone mentioned extravagant purchases. You can go broke pretty fast when you're just constantly buying shit you don't need in order to get a dopamine hit (which many do on a daily basis). One or two unnecessary purchases (or dinners with a few drinks) a week that make you feel good can lead to economic catastrophe within a few years.

Ugh R39 I went to a Debtors Anonymous meeting once and it was AWFUL. Just a bunch of people complaining about things other than their spending problems. And I'm not religious so the whole "higher power" thing annoyed me.

[quote]The entire credit industry needs to be revamped and regulated. Too many lives are ruined because of easy access to credit and credit reporting.

The bigger problem is that there is one set of rules for the wealthiest who get to pass the buck while the poor are stuck with their debt.

I think overspending after 30 is majorly fucking up.

R37 I have bad credit. I was in the 400s a few months ago in my credit score, now I'm in the 600s. I'm improving it as we speak. I'm disabled and live on $733. a month, so don't tell me it's easy for anyone else to talk, you can be responsible no matter how poor you are.

R43 I mean you no disrespect, but what good wil having a good credit score do in your case? You are on very limited income, how could the possibility of getting into debt possibly help you?

I'm always amazed by people my age who can afford to jet off to Thailand, Kuala Lampur, Dubai and all these exotic places...then I remember that Instagram doesn't reflect real life.

I made 250K a year in my late 20's. Ancient history however.

O/T : You wouldn't be able to live off of $733 a month in Canada without support of some kind.

I have never forgotten the advice my late father gave me with respect to credit cards. He told me to imagine that someone came knocking at my door at midnight demanding the entire balance, and that if it took me more than 48 hours to raise that amount and pay it, I was in trouble. I have ALWAYS paid off the entire balance (which is never more than $100 or so max). He also taught me the wisdom of paying extra principal on my mortgage. I retired 3 years early, live very comfortably, and have a very high credit score.

What did you do before retiring R48? For a living, I mean, that should be a clue as to why you never had any credit problem, not you daddy's advice....

Are there any business owners on this thread?

I don't understand it either, OP.

I have 'stuff'. it's stuff I want, not designer this or high end that. And it is all paid for.

I've never been a 'keeping up with the Jones' ' type.

I have a friend who complains about other friends who regularly 'force' him to go to $ 100 plus dinners with them, but he complains I eat at the same old places and don't 'dress up' enough when I'm out. I always say 'it's just a meal and I'm happy if it tastes good' and that I don't dress for anyone else, but me and my own comfort.'

R44 you never know when your life will depend on bring able to get your hands on some money. That said, I have no plans on screwing it up, I'll only have it as a safety net in case of dire emergency.

R47, you can't in the US either.

It does no good to judge or make assumptions about people that have debt. It's super common. Agree that credit card companies need to be regulated. They give out too much credit and then bury people in payments or litigation.

I don't think credit checks should be required for employment. I think that's inappropriate and an invasion of privacy for a company to check a prospective employee's credit and find out all their business. I believe that this is illegal in Canada, and it should also be in the US.

My father opened up a business when I was about 17 and it failed when I was about 20. My parents lost everything, including the house and their marriage. We were always upper middle class, I'd say, and then we were dirt poor. Ironically, our cleaning lady, Lola, inherited some money from a wealthy client of hers and she ended up better off then we were and took our dog in.. It has scared me, and my brothers, even though it was more than 30 years ago.

I owe nothing, pay everything I can off right away. I have saved a good amount of money and yet I worry that I'll end up poor again, or like my father, who is elderly and lives only on social security. He does ok, thanks more to his second wife, but I have a deep fear of poverty and see how easily it can happen to anyone.

We were never extravagant and when I see people living those life styles, it never ever impresses me.

r56 your dad should have had the business under an LLC that way if the business went bankrupt it wouldn't effect the family home/money.

I earn a decent salary and have a very respectable credit score. This year I got serious about paying off my student loans, car note, and small CC balance and my credit score has DROPPED as a result. It should be called a debt score.

not what he told me his mistress ;O

[quote] People who suffer from depression have been known to plunge themselves into debt because purchasing something extravagant lifts their spirits. Of course, it's a temporary sense of "happiness", so they keep buying to sustain the sense of well-being.

Yes, it could be depression. Some people do drugs or drink too much to combat depression. Some people like to have nice things -- or just surround themselves in material things -- and create the illusion of wealth and largesse. Personally, I think self-medicating with drugs or alcohol is much worse then treating all your friends to a spa day or a concert.

[quote] A dear friend of mine lived like this. The GFC happened didnt it. And he killed himself. Still shattered. Thats my view on living in debt.

He probably killed himself because he was depressed. The debt was just a symptom of depression.

You can't take any of this sh*t with you when you go. At the same time, there's no sense in living a deliberately frugal lifestyle and forbearing on having nice things if you don't have to. Spend every penny, go into excessive debt and over-extend yourself if it makes you happy, even temporarily. A little bit of luxury -- luxury car, first-class air travel, five-star hotels -- does wonders for personal happiness and well-being. Live it up while you can, you only live once.

This is why I only use AmEx-- because you have to pay it off every month.

I use it for everything and the bill is usually a couple thousand dollars, but since I hardly ever use cash, it's easy for me to pay and I get lots of miles I use to take trips for free, so it's a win-win.

You mean AmEx charge cards. not AmEx credit cards.

Yes R62- the Platinum card.

I put everything on my credit cards, for the "cash back" promotional benefits. Then I pay them off in full monthly. I make about $1200 each year in cash back.

I knew a guy who spent like OP describes. Including lots of plastic surgery. When he was about 40, it all caught up with him. The IRS was garnishing his wages. He had to relocate to some place outside the city since it was all he could afford. Basically he ruined his life. For irony's sake, when he told me about all this, he noted that he was wearing a $200 T-shirt. It looked a lot like a $20 T-shirt.

My goal is to get off using cards for vacations or donations. Ideally, it should only be a bill you pay off each month. I feel for people who rack up debt due to job loss. Why can't the credit card companies do a Willy Wonka gold ticket and erase debt for 10 people each year.

The credit card companies want you to owe them the absolute maximum you can.

Most American households live on something reasonably close to $50,000 a year - before taxes. If a card company can get them hooked on $6,000 in debt (trendy clothes and two nice vacations) they're almost screwed.

Take home is around $3000 a month after taxes, modest 401(k) savings and health care/insurance. Rent and utilities (including cable) are maybe $1400. That leaves toughly $50 a day for everything else - food, transportation, gifts, parties, repay school loans, clothing, co-pays, emergencies, everything.

The MINIMUM credit card payment on that $6,000 is at least $250 a month. It eats up nearly five days of every month's disposable income and will take almost five years at 14% interest to pay off. (Be late on one or two payments and the interest doubles.

Have another "credit needing card emergency expenditure" sometime in the next five years and the debt essentially becomes permanent.

Far, far better to have passed on those two nice vacations and saved the $250 a month. In a couple years you can take a really nice trip. Pay cash for it. Have money left over. And really relax while you're away.

What's the point of getting credit cards if you're not going to use them?

[quote]What's the point of getting credit cards if you're not going to use them?

Apparently some insurance companies look at your debt to credit ratio before calculating a premium. Many prospective landlords run credit checks too. Having zero debt is a plus.

I'd have a better opinion of credit card companies if FirstUSA had only granted me the Yahoo! Austin Powers card. Since then I've been passionate about the "living within one's means" model of happiness.

R48 here...I was an RN. Always made fairly decent money and had the ability to pick up extra shifts whenever I needed to. Unlike kids of today, however, I did not have staggering student loan debt and upon graduation was able to afford my own apartment, car (a long series of VW bugs!) and living expenses. Of course, when I started out there were no outrageous cell phone, internet and cable bills either.

Despite my father's good advice with regard to credit cards, I was never much of a saver, esp during my "party years" in my late 20s and 30s. I did not start seriously saving until my early 40s. At that point, like a lot of older nurses, I began working for insurance companies (who were heinous, but not nearly as heinous as they are today!) and once I saw how quickly a 401K and a Roth could start growing, I wised up fast. Nurses, by and large, do not have pensions; and laugh all you want, but I started watching Suze Orman and really began to think long term. I was aging out of the party scene anyway, so I began throwing most of that money into savings. But the true key is NO CREDIT CARD DEBT EVER! To this day I still pay cash for everything, including Christmas. And I still ended up with more clothes, books, CDs and crap than I can ever use. If I owned a $200 T shirt I would not be able to sleep at night!!

[quote] This is why I only use AmEx-- because you have to pay it off every month. I use it for everything and the bill is usually a couple thousand dollars, but since I hardly ever use cash, it's easy for me to pay and I get lots of miles I use to take trips for free, so it's a win-win.

Bitch, if you can pay off a couple thousand dollars in credit card debt why are you posting in this thread??? This thread is for people struggling with debt. You are a humble-braggart.

Live for yourself and not to impress others. You'll be surprised how well you can live within your means and still be the happiest man or woman on earth.

Through a great deal of people in the US got into debt because of student loans or medical emergencies (because, you know, it's not fair for the pharma and healthcare industry to lose any profit! /s).

sorry, THOUGH a great deal of people ...

Calm down R71. I thought the post was just fine.

Ain't nobody asked you nothing, r74. The struggle is real!

Find better friends

Does he live in Dallas by any chance? He sounds like he lives in Dallas.

I suspect a lot of people do this sort of thing. Living on credit just trying to keep up with the Jonses. I don’t get it, either. I only have one credit card and I keep that shit paid down. I have some savings in the bank just in case I need cash. Living beyond your means just doesn’t make sense when you will eventually have to pay for it. Jacks up your credit.

This pandemic crisis has exposed America's dirty secret. 70% of the country live paycheck to paycheck...i.e one month without a paycheck and the household has no resources to pay rent, car payment, food... and payment on the huge debt that "the greatest economy the world has ever seen" has allowed regular people to accumulate. GDP, and profits for publicly held companies ($ to stockholders) is dependent on the consumer culture... Americans must by "things" to keep the economy moving.... like a shark, consumers cannot stop buying or the whole thing dies.

Average household debt in US per household: $140k

Average credit card debt per household: $8k

Percentage of Americans who have less than $400 savings: 40%

COVID has exposed that this simply isn't sustainable....