Why was Norma Shearer billed before Joan Crawford in "The Women"?

This is a most critical for DL to answer. Shearer was a bigger star at the time.

Norma's role is the center of the story. It's about her and her marriage. Joan is the threat to that marriage, but she has a much smaller part.

Note, too, that the movie's first and last shots are of Norma.

Wasn't Norma Shearer married to some big shot film producer? Of course she's going to get top billing.

She was married to the man who was basically the creative head of MGM, Irving Thalberg; but I think he died before THE WOMEN was made?

Norma WAS the bigger star in 1939.

Her role WAS the central one.

She was the widow of Irving Thalberg, who had been the producer of MGM's most prestigious films.

All factors..

(Was Johnny Mack Brown billed ahead of Joan in "Montana Moon"?)

So Norma got the top billing the old fashioned way. On her back. And they called Joan a slut.

Norma's brother seemed to do the sound in basically every MGM film ever. His name is always there on the credits!!

Because Norma was the "Queen of MGM", married to top exec. Irving Thalberg

Girls, girls, GIRLS! You were BOTH sluts!

Shearer was the bigger star. So much so that jealous Crawford whined, "How can I compete with Norma when she's sleeping with the boss?"

[quote] (Was Johnny Mack Brown billed ahead of Joan in "Montana Moon"?)

Was Trog billed ahead of Joan in "Trog"?

R9 is right!

Joan had Jackie Cooper.

Norma had Mickey Rooney.

I predict 600 posts by Thursday.

A lot of women had Mickey Rooney, but few of them for very long.

[quote]Norma's brother seemed to do the sound in basically every MGM film ever. His name is always there on the credits!!

Douglas Shearer was the head of the sound dept. at MGM. He was an innovative sound designer who created recording techniques that were used throughout the industry.

R11, I think the billing was "...and presenting "Trog" as Himself."

Was Missy billed ahead of Joan when they went shopping for Spanish sowsage and Red Weirdos?

Ayb, is that you at R16?

[quote]Was Trog billed ahead of Joan in "Trog"?

The credits said "Joan Crawford in Trog," but everyone knows that behind the scenes it was really Trog who appeared in Joan Crawford.

[quote] A lot of women had Mickey Rooney, but few of them for very long.

Is that a crack at his size, his many marriages or both?

Norma always came across as so frausy and boring. Not a lick of sex appeal. Norma was no Joan Crawford. Joan just radiated sex appeal and glamour.

Norma was the Queen of a lot.

How dare ANYBODY diss Norma Shearer's brother?

R17, not AYB.

Maybe MOM (Mild mannered Old Midwesterner)?

I think R13 is on to something. Joan and Norma gave so much (as artistes AND sluts) and continue to do so, their legacies in both realms providing discursive succor for election-weary DLers everywhere. Thanks, gals!

I have no idea, OP.

Norma's career ended in 1942. Joan continued to work through the 1970s. Didn't Norma trap Thalberg?

Don't we have a Nora Shearer Troll?

OP, you have released the Kraken.

R20, Norma was the epitome of MGM glamour, sophistication, and sexiness in such pre-Code films as Private Lives, A Free Soul, Strange Interlude, Let us Be Gay, and The Divoree. Norma's image was that of a scandalously liberated woman or free spirit. Post-Code, she transitioned to noble women roles, while Crawford inherited her liberated woman mantle.

[quote]Norma's career ended in 1942. Joan continued to work through the 1970s

Norma ended her film career with dignity. Joan ended hers with Trog.

"Put 'em around me...then put it IN me!"

[quote] Norma ended her film career with dignity. Joan ended hers with Trog.

Bitch, please. Even in Trog, Joan was a star.

"She slept with the boss"

Even in Joan Trog was a star!

Regarding Norma Shearer and Irving Thalberg -

"She doesn't love him, you know. She gave herself to him, like a nun gives herself to Christ - to fill her inner needs"

at least Thalberg was young and relatively attractive... not some fat, old, ugly tycoon . Good for Norma!

After Thalberg died, Norma inherited substantial stock in MGM. Norma still received the best roles because of this.

"She really road through the studio on his balls!"

[R14] Ava Gardner could stick his whole head up her ass.

Joan Crawford fucked everyone in Hollywood except Lassie.

There was a saying around MGM: "Norma Shearer got the productions, Greta Garbo supplied the art, and Joan Crawford made the money to pay for both".

Watching Norma Shearer in The Women is like choking to death on pink cake batter.

Norma remained dignified and said very little about Joan. Joan, however, had much to say about Norma.

[quote] Norma ended her film career with dignity. Joan ended hers with Trog.

Quite.

R31, meet R10.

Norma Shearer made me change my costume sixteen times because every one was prettier than hers. I love to play bitches and she helped me in this part.

-Joan

Joan Crawford, the more I read about her, was a hard, crude woman. I don't like her.

My spoiled millennial niece knows who Joan Crawford is, has seen Mildred Pierce, A Woman's Face, Baby Jane, Straight Jacket, Trog, and Mommie Dearest.

She has no idea who Norma Shearer is.

"Norma ended her film career with dignity. Joan ended hers with 'Trog'. "

And we are forever grateful for both...

R44's spoiled millennial niece was also notably grateful when she was old enough not to suffer through her gay uncle to babysitting.

R46 = unclear on the concept

R44, Norma Shearer retired from films in 1942, and stayed retired. Many of her films are largely forgotten, except my classic film buffs, simply because so much time has passed and she refused to participate in any nostagia screenings and tributes. Joan Crawford, on the other hand, worked until the 1970s and made sure you never forgot her, appearing on soaps, game shows, award shows, Pepsi commercials, etc., and courted controversy and press by commenting on her legendary feuds, and on everyone and everything that was making news.

*except [italic]by[/italic] classic film buffs...

Remind me again, how long have they both been dead?

They've been dead longer than [R46]'s pelvic floor muscle.

"Ya can't fight for billing with a gal who has the boss's cock-a-doodle-doo in her mouth!"

-- Joan Crawford, Hollywood Royalty

Norma remained one of MGM's biggest shareholders throughout her life and lived royally in a Mansion on Sunset Boulevard. Sha married some young guy to fuck her until she was too demented to remember she had a vagina.

Post-Code Norma Shearer will spike anyone's glycemic index. One of the most affected actresses in history. I think she's insufferable.

My favorite: When she played Marie Antoinette as a menopausal teen.

Make sure you read this when you have time. This article implies that Joan took the part, just to be bitchy to Norma.

If Joan Crawford isn't the patron saint of all gay men, then I don't know who is.

[quote] If Joan Crawford isn't the patron saint of all gay men, then I don't know who is.

[quote] If Joan Crawford isn't the patron saint of all gay men, then I don't know who is.

Oh come now. Those two old washed up messes.

R58, I read mattresses instead of messes.

[quote] Those two old washed up messes.

Judy was one of the most talented singers ever. She also had a lot of pain and struggle throughout her life. Despite that, she had a good heart, which is hard to encounter in Hollywood. At a time when gay people were oppressed beyond belief, they identified with her struggles and she theirs.

Both terms apply, R59!

We KNOW, R60! You done tole and tole us...

R60 mutters that "Judy was one of the most talented..." shtick in his sleep.

R61, you don't recognize a classic DL meme from the late DL poster Judy "Pills" Garland.

Whatever, R62...

Judy Pills says: "Judy was one of the most talented singers ever. She also had a lot of pain and struggle throughout her life. Despite that, she had a good heart, which is hard to encounter in Hollywood. At a time when gay people were oppressed beyond belief, they identified with her struggles and she theirs."

If you really believed that JP, you would change your insulting screen name, which only contributes to the image of Garland as a pill-popping no-talent better off forgotten, not an artist on the level of Sinatra or Picasso or Callas.

YOU and YOUR NAME are part of the problem, JP.

[quote]you don't recognize a classic DL meme from the late DL poster Judy "Pills" Garland.

Technically, it wasn't a meme FROM Judy "Pills" Garland; it was about him.

The old queen (probably long dead now) who wrote it with one hand, while lighting candles in his Judy Shrine with the other, remains unknown.

R64, you are not me.

[quote] you are not me.

Just as well, as you are, clearly, not very bright.

Joan

Norma always looked a bit cross eyed.

The very first film considered produced (but not first released) under the newly formed Metro-Goldwyn-Mayer auspices was a film starring Norma, John Gilbert, and Lon Chaney, "He Who Gets Slapped", directed by Victor Sjostrom. It was a huge artistic and box office smash. It's always better to be in the starting line up, or at least it was for Norma.

Cukor knew exactly what he was doing when he cast them as antagonists in 1939.

Joan should have nominated for The Women. That scene in the bathtub was glorious.

Oh for chrissakes, Mary is the lead role.

But that bathroom was perfectly ridiculous.

Can't you just co-operate!

I need to seek out some other Norma Shearer movies. THE WOMEN is the only one I've seen.

See "A Free Soul", R76. It made Gable a star and Shearer is at her pre code best. But, I warn you, the acting is way over the top.

Put em around me!

Shearer is glorious in Marie Antoinette, if you like Adrian paniers on an unlimited budget and leading man closet cases.

Norma's last scene in The Women was so over the top, I couldn't stop laughing. The way she FLUNG her arms out, running towards "Stephen" was a total hoot. Did they really consider that to be dramatic instead of plain stupid??

You're wrong, r65. During one of many meltdowns, Judy "Pills" Garland posted a picture and link to a blog of his. He was late 20s, maybe, or early 30s. When he disappeared , the rumor was that it was a drug overdose.

Final scene notwithstanding, Norma was at her most naturalistic and down-to-earth as Mary in The Women. If you think she's over the top there, you should check out her earlier efforts.

[quote]Joan Crawford fucked everyone in Hollywood except Lassie.

Bullshit! Joan Crawford was one of the hottest bitches I've ever had.

She also channels (parodies is too strong a word) Garbo in Idiot's Delight.

I was a tutor for one of Norma Shearer's granddaughters when I was a grad student in Chicago. Nice young woman, but not a talented girl (probably a smart one). I was instructed not to mention Mrs. Irving Thalberg in front of the girl's mother (long divorced from the Thalberg son, who was a philosophy professor)--bad memories of Norma as a mother-in-law apparently.

Wasn't Norma's performance (and wig) in Idiot's Delight painstakingly copied after Lynne Fontanne in the Broadway original?

I don't think in 1939 Shearer or LB Mayer would have dared allow her to parody Garbo.

[R86] - Shearer admitted it to one of her biographers.

Lassie during "her" MGM years was played by by a male dog named Pal. Pal played Lassie in the two pilots for the TV show and by his direct male descendants thereafter.

Don't tell me Joan didn't have that dog.

[quote] Don't tell me Joan didn't have that dog.

Don't tell me Joan didn't have that trog.

[quote]Don't tell me Joan didn't have that dog.

They dated briefly, but Joan was such a bitch.

R76, Check out "Escape", with Norma and Robert Taylor.

Why was Lana Turner billed above Kirk Douglas in "The Bad and the Beautiful"?

R92, it was an MGM film and Lana was an MGM star. Kirk Douglas was an independent player. He landed the lead role after Clark Gable dropped out.

r69 Norma's eyes almost ruined her budding career. She was acutely aware of her small eyes that appeared crossed due to a cast in her right eye. Flo Ziegfeld turned Shearer down flat, reportedly calling her a "dog", and criticized her crossed eyes and stubby legs. D. W. Griffith also said Norma's "eyes no good." Still undeterred, Shearer risked some of her savings on a consultation with Dr. William Bates, a pioneer in the treatment of incorrectly aligned eyes and defective vision. He wrote out a series of muscle-strengthening exercises that, after many years of daily practice, would successfully conceal Shearer's cast for long periods of time on the screen. She spent hours in front of the mirror, exercising her eyes and striking poses that concealed or improved the physical flaws noted by Ziegfeld or Griffith.

Norma was not attractive and fat, so she must have sucked a mean cock to land Thalberg who could have had his pick of any woman.

The only movies I really liked Mrs Shearer in were her silent efforts (He Who Gets Slapped and The Student Prince in Old Heidelberg were the best). Most of her pre-codes aged horribly (her overacting in The Divorcee and A Free Soul has to be seen to be believed) and after the Hays code was introduced she started doing dull Oscar bait movies which have little artistic merit (The Women was a bright exception). After she retired Greer Grason took over from her and got cast in all those dull biographical films and period dramas.

Never let them see you in public after you've turned thirty-five. You're finished if you do!

Jungle Red!

I'm still Team Joan. Norma sounds like a snoot.

[quote]Because Norma was the "Queen of MGM",

Not after I got there!

Supposedly Norma Shearer discovered Janet Leigh.

Norma was the biggest star there was during her day. Bigger than Joan, Bette, and Kate Hepburn. Funny what time can do. Today, you're lucky if you can find anybody under 40 who even knew who she was.

Norma always got her billing on her back. Miss Crawford was too much of a lady for that kind of tomfoolery.

R103 = Joan typing with one hand and fingering the ass of a C-List director with the other.

Because Norma's claws were JUNGLE RED.