Was Ginger Rogers considered a good dancer?

Her reputation as a dancer has been puffed up for decades due to her partnership with Astaire in the 30's, and his consummate skill covered for her. Frankly, their "magic" as a duo is IMO typical Hollywood manufacturing, and their films are not that great other than the dancing scenes - the plots generally drag on. When you see Astaire dancing with far better partners (e.g. Hayworth, Charisse), Rogers' limitations are more apparent.

I have to say I agree with you in part, R1. (I can't comment on some of Astaire's other pairings you mentioned because I haven't seen them, though I'm willing to bet Charisse is just as amazing with Astaire as she is with Gene Kelly, which is pretty damned amazing.)

I thought I would enjoy the films more than I have been, but I find them kind of boring. In part it's because they're dated and a bit hackneyed, but so is something like 42nd Street or the Broadway Melody films and I like those far better than the Astaire Rogers films.

I think she was a good partner and her chemistry with Astaire was magical. On her own, not so much. What was it Hepburn supposedly said--He gives her class, she gives him sex.

Let's see YOU match Astaire, OP. Backwards. In heels.

She was a much better comedian and actor than dancer. I just rewatched Stage Door a few nights ago, and she was wonderful playing off Hepburn.

Rogers never sold herself as a dancer. And for someone who was not primarily a dancer, she did damned well at keeping up with the uniquely gifted Fred Astaire. Rogers was a Broadway musical star who could do it all and do it with star quality. Of course Cyd Charisse, a former dancer with the Ballets Russes de Monte Carlo, was the better dancer, but unless she was dancing, she was leaden, a problem Ginger Rogers NEVER had.

It's also worth nothing that Astaire and Rogers danced together on film for the first time in 1933. That's just six years after the introduction of sound. Go just a few years before Astaire and Rogers and the musical numbers found in film were usually heavy, stagey, clumsy, unsophisticated un-cinematic things. Fred and Ginger didn't invent the form, but they elevated it from its struggling infancy into something that didn't much change for the next 40 or 50 years.

Rogers was not a technician. But she left a huge mark on dance.

As I've said before, Astaire considered Charysse his best partner. He preferred partners who had been classically trained in ballet.

[quote]Let's see YOU match Astaire, OP. Backwards. In heels.

Dancing backwards in heels is easier than dancing frontwards in flats. The person who leads covers a lot more ground than the person who follows and it is easier to produce clean heel taps in high-heeled shoes than it is in flats.

She wasn't a good dancer when they started, she was originally known as a Charlston dancer and learned ballroom and tap during the 1930s as she made the Fred-and-Ginger films. She got good enough to tap with Astaire in their later films without embarrassing herself, and actually had a solo number in one of the last.

Of course Astaire was a better dancer than she was, he had more training and experience and he wasn't spending his time on other fluff films - because Fred would make maybe one musical film a year while Ginger made 3 or 4 like a proper studio contract player. While she was working on other films, Fred was working on choreography and perfecting his dance skills. She wasn't in his league in terms of skill, but they were wonderful together anyway.

Fred considered Barrie Chase his best partner, quoted in several places.

r10 Astaire was quoted, "Gene Kelly." Said in response to the standard question, "Who was your favorite dancing partner?" Fred claimed Kelly was the best, so as not to slight any of his female dancing partners.

I was under the impression Astaire had said his favorite dancing partner was Eleanor Powell?

Guys, if you google it, you will find that Fred Astaire names Rita Hayworth as his favorite partner.

And Kate Hepburn is full of it when she says that Fred gave Ginger class. Watch "Top Hat" or "Swing Time." Miss Rogers has plenty of class!

Ginger Rogers said that after rehearsing endlessly with Fred she would sometimes walk away with her feet bleeding. She didn't have an easy job.

Fred and Ginger made 10 movies together, more then any of his other dance partners.

It has often been noted that Rogers was not the best dancer Astaire partnered with. But in spite of her shortcomings, theirs was the best partnership.

This has been the critical consensus since the 30s. If you want to get further into this, I hightly recommend Arlene Croce's The Fred Astaire & Ginger Rogers Book.

She had the hardest job, swishing around in all those fancy costumes.

Yes she was a good dancer and a superior comedian/actress. I love her in Stage Door and the Major and the Minor. And in Kitty Foyle, her Oscar winning performance of 1940.

It’s her singing that was atrocious.

R17, I disagree that her singing is atrocious.

Have you heard her sing "The Continental" in "The Gay Divorcee"? Her singing is perfectly pleasant. She is such a good actress that she is able to "sell" her singing and her dancing.

Passible

She was in my Twist class

I fell like Fred Astaire's dances (in the movies) with Eleanor Powell were far less romantic than his dances with G. Rogers.

I think that was the genius of the Astaire/Rogers pairing: Ginger never "upstaged" him. She was a beautiful female partner who could keep up with him, but the viewer still knew that Fred was the star.

And Ginger always fell in love with him after just one dance. Charming!

R1, It is interesting you say that the Astaire/Rogers films were not great and that the plots drag on.

Remember that they were made in the early 1930s! There was no television, and there was a depression going on! I feel like the viewers of that era demanded a film that was at least 1 h and 30 minutes.

Yes, the plots could get convoluted, but the supporting players such as Edward Everett Horton, Helen Broderick, Eric Blore, and Erik Rhodes were top-notch! The dialogue was clever and heavy on sexual innuendo.

Astaire & Rogers had the best chemistry, but Powell, Hayworth, Charisse and the electrifying Chase were all better dancers than Rogers.

Never Gonna Dance from Swing Time is one of the greatest sequences ever put on film and I'm even talking outside of musicals. Rogers is superb her with a back that is one of the world's great wonders.

Have to admit though the books of these musicals are hard to sit through after more than one viewing with only The Gay Divorcee holding up throughout with all those wonderful character actors and funny dialogue. Interesting that Swing Time which has the best numbers, one classic after another, has the most leaden tedious book.

Outside of the spectacular Charisse(who gives a very wonderful performance in Silk Stockings) and Hayworth(I'm addicted to the Shorty George) there were also Vera Ellen, Eleanor Powell(Is there anymore famous number than Begin the Beguine? I prefer the first half bolero) and the way underrated Lucille Bremmer. This Heart of Mine and Coffee Time are among the best numbers he ever did. And the time signature in Coffee Time is so complex no matter how many times I've seen it I can't figure out how the chorus dancers are in perfect step. I can never follow it myself.

Cyd Charisse is great, but Fred was so much older when he danced with her.....

I prefer his pairing with G. Rogers.

"Miss Rogers has plenty of class!"

Which came from Astaire.

I just love the 1930s movies. Pre-code ones are the best (Ruby Keeler/Dick Powell in the WB movies and Astaire/Roger's Gay Divorcee and Flying Down to Rio) but even the movies post -1934 have terrific dialogue and innuendo.

1950s movies have great dancing, but I find the leering plots kind of creepy. Astaire was still a great dancer, but I found him so much more elegant as a younger man in his 30's films.

(Guess I need to check out his 1940s films.)

What 50s musical plots do you find leering? I can't think of any unless you're thinking he's too old for his leading ladies and he's really just a dirty old man.

Flying Down to Rio was the first movie to play the Christmas show at Radio City Music Hall and received a C rating from the Catholic church.

C as in Condemned as in suitable for nobody. The Music Hall had a dirty picture that even adults were forbidden by the church to see playing along with the Nativity on stage. Despite that it was a huge hit.

Really.

Incidentally, why don't we talk about Rita Hayworth more on the DL?

Yeah, OP, Ginger's nickname at RKO was "The Lummox."

R28, leering was a poor choice of words.

I'm not sure I can explain what I mean....I guess it just bothers me that films made according to the Hayes Code have no real suggestion that people actually go to bed with each other, but the women dress so sexily. Some films with Ann Miller (who I think is super talented) come to mind.

I find the comedy of the 1930s more sophisticated, if you will.

As for Fred being so much older than his partners in his 50s, no, I don't think he comes across as a leering, dirty old man. It just seemed so improbable, though, that Cyd Charisse would leave her hot boyfriend for Fred in "Bandwagon", for example.

But Fred was quoted as saying that Ginger improved greatly as she went along.

R28, leering was a poor choice of words. I sort of regretted using it right away.

No, Fred doesn't come across as a dirty old man, I just prefer the young Fred as a romantic lead.

And I find 30s comedy much more sophisticated than that of the 1950s.

1950s are quite prudish! There is no hint at all that people actually have sex with each other, yet the women dress like whores and men leer at them. Not sure I can explain it well, but that is what I find creepy. Particularly some 50s musicals with Ann Miller, who is fabulous.

R27 here again. I love the film "Bandwagon" but C. Charisse leaving her hunky bf for Fred? I don't think so!

Yes, "Flying Down to Rio" is a trip.

But it is the first pairing of Fred and Ginger, and so, it must be seen!

R29, because we can't remember to talk about her?

R24, if it helps, there's a youtube clip that states that the orchestra plays in 4/4 and the chorus dances in 5/4. In any case, Coffee Time is stunning.

This is off-thread, but does anyone else like Marge and Gower Champion?

I think they are just swell! lol

The sex is in the dance.

Try One Alone from Deep In My Heart where James Mitchell who plays Cyd's boyfriend in The Band Wagon practically screws her while the two of them are clothed. Maybe the best sexiest MGM number nobody is familiar with because the film stars Jose Ferrer as Sigmund Romberg and who wants to see that? I love the cruel way Mitchell blows her off after he's practically fucked her. There's more in these musical numbers than people see.

Ferrer and Helen Traubel though are very funny doing The Leg of Mutton Rag and as always Ann Miller knocks them dead with a tap charleston number to the song It.

Marge and Gower are at their considerable best in Showboat.

R39, I also love Marge and Gower in "Lovely To Look At' which is a 50s remake of the Astaire classic, "Roberta."

R39 thanks for the 'Deep In My Heart" recommendation.

[quote]Outside of the spectacular Charisse(who gives a very wonderful performance in Silk Stockings) and Hayworth(I'm addicted to the Shorty George) there were also Vera Ellen, Eleanor Powell(Is there anymore famous number than Begin the Beguine? I prefer the first half bolero) and the way underrated Lucille Bremmer.

Excuse me? Forgetting someone?

Watching them together is magical. Why spoil something so wonderful?

Petula I also forgot Leslie in Daddy Long Legs. Terrific in Something's Gotta Give and Sluefoot.

You've got the voice but Caron's got the stems(as they used to say in Variety, but that's before my time. Really.)

Ginger could always lift her legs higher than the other girls.

And wider....

Ginger was married to the young Lew Ayres. You can't do better than that.

His performance in Holiday is one of my all time favorites.

Speaking of Lew Ayres, I think TCM is running a bunch of "Dr. Kildare" movies shortly.

After Lew Ayres, Ginger married Jacques Bergerac so she did MUCH than that! Have you ever seen Jacques Bergerac??

Ginger's costumes throughout all those RKO musicals were spectacular, even in black and white. Mostly designed by the forgotten Bernard Newman, who could design circles around Edith Head and even Adrian, for my money.

Jacques Bergerac and Lucy.

Lucy and Ginger were bffs at RKO.

Jose Ferrer in Deep In My Heart is actually the definition of ugly hot. He is SMOKING imo. He has a very subtle way about him..idk. I'd rec it JUST for him.

But you notice Lucy never had Ginger on as a guest? And Ginger's mother has a terrible reputation but Lucy adored her.

Fred's favorite dancing partner was Rita Hayworth, not only because she was one of the best dancers he was ever paired with, but because he was such good friends with her parents, the Cansinos (a famous dancing pair).

He was paired with many women who were better dancers than Ginger: Barrie Chase, Eleanor Powell, Cyd Charisse, Jane Powell. but none of them produced the special magic he had with Ginger. as Katharine Hepburn said, "he gave her class; she gave him sex." there was something they had together that no one else had.

Indeed, when you've got one really great dancer, the other doesn't have to be as good: the other just has to be good, and the two just need to have real chemistry. Eleanor Powell was probably the best solo female dancer Fred was ever paired with, but they don't have any chemistry together in "Broadway Melody of 1940" and seem very awkward together: Eleanor always looked best when dancing entirely on her own.

Ginger was a great comedic actress--far better than Fred ever was. Her performance in "The Major and the Minor" is marvelous, and she gets to display repeatedly her great gift for mimicry.

I don't agree with you. Both the Juke box number and Begin the Beguine are spectacular.

R56, those two numbers are great, but you can't say that Fred and Eleanor have great chemistry.

R54, we have already debunked Hepburn's nasty quip that Ginger Rogers lacked class.

R54, Thanks for bringing up Jane Powell.

She and Fred were great in "Royal Wedding."

From which Judy was fired.

Ginger took Stewart's cherry.

Fred was 34 when he started making movies. By the time he and Ginger were finished, he was in his 40s--by the time he was dancing in the MGM musicals, there was a huge age gap between him and his partners and it just kind of did in any kind of real chemistry. Fred was elegant, but not traditionally good-looking. Ginger was pretty, but not a sex bomb. She and Fred were believable as a romantic pair in a way Fred and Rita Hayworth were not.

And, no, Ginger wasn't nearly the dancer Fred was, but she did have the ability to convey emotion through dance (Eleanor Powell didn't. Though I love "Begin the Beguine" as a tour de force, it has none of the song's melancholy.) Fred and Ginger's romantic duets are expressive in a way that that his pas de deux with other women are not.

That said, the real shame is that there's zip footage of him dancing with Adele Astaire, who some thought was his best partner (and with more star power than Fred). Actually, there's zero footage of Adele dancing at all.

I recently discovered Eleanor Powell on TCM and have managed to watch all of her movies, though sadly there arent a lot, maybe eight or so. She was clearly the best female dancer ever, maybe best ever male or female. It seems the last few films after Broadway Melody of 1940 though, relegated her to inferior supporting roles, and then she disappeared. One of them even showed dance numbers repeated from her older films. Does anyone know why this happened?

R61, thanks. Well said.

R62, I have seen "Born To Dance" which is a lot of fun and features a young Buddy Ebsen, the always funny Una Merkel, and a young and handsome Jimmy Stewart.

Have also seen "Lady Be Good" which is kind of a snooze.

Eleanor was a great dancer, but not much of an actress, IMHO.

Eleanor Powell was a technician, almost frightening....Fred Astaire could be romantic but he had no sex appeal--it sounds as if he was gay, for one thing (married and all, but still).....Nothing more sublime than watching Rita Hayworth dance. She was lighter than air, and she and Fred Astaire together were sublime.

Thanks R63, it's not often I get to pontificate on Rogers and Astaire.

I always wish he could have been paired with Jessie Matthews, the great British musical comedy star who was a fine dancer AND singer, and who was warmer and more human than the otherwise dazzling Eleanor Powell.

r59: Jane Powell was a wonderful dancer--highly underrated. I love the way she moves in her big "The Ocean Roll" number in "Two Weeks with Love"--it's not even really a dance number ,but she moves so gracefully around so many people she's spellbinding.

But when Jane really got rolling, she was even better! And she was no mean comedic actress either.

Jessie Matthews would have been a great pairing--right age and had the right kind of soubrette quality that worked with Fred's dandyish quality. And, yes, she could dance.

R68, thanks, I will have to check that one out again. Love Debbe R. in that one!

Also love Jane Powell in "Seven Brides For Seven Brothers."

And "Small Town Girl" is not a super great film, but Jane is, as always, charming.

And, of course, Jane was great in her "Dry Dock" commercials in the NYC market circa 1976.

"Was Ginger Rogers considered a good dancer?"

Miss Rogers, who had naturally auburn hair, was such a hot dancer that her Ginger minge was often on fire.

R68, thanks. That's charming. And a single take I think. That is one ugly dress. I bet it's a Helen Rose.

Thanks to r39, I watched this number. It's stunning.

I love Annie's IT!!!

Prepare to be dazzled — and she doesn’t seem to break a sweat!

Thanks. That's remarkable. I guess people know she was married to Glenn Ford, who cheated on her with Rita.

[quote]Yes, the plots could get convoluted, but the supporting players such as Edward Everett Horton, Helen Broderick, Eric Blore, and Erik Rhodes were top-notch!

I loved it when Edward Everett Horton shoved a traffic cone up Erik Rhodes ass.

This is way better than the "freak accidents" thread.

[quote]R12 Guys, if you google it, you will find that Fred Astaire names Rita Hayworth as his favorite partner.

I would say she was his best partner, and supposedly you just had to go through a combination once and she got it...which is kind of hard for me to fathom!

Cyd Charisse was obviously superb, but a little too coolly classical for my taste. Hayworth seemed to enjoy the whole performance aspect more.

Astaire & Haworth doing "Shorty Jones" is one of my all time favorites. They are great together and seem to be having fun dancing together which makes it all the more charming.

Thanks for the mention upthread about "Coffee Time". It made watch the YouTube vid and it was marvelous.

I just love dancers so much. I always have. I just have so much respect for their talent. I've always loved beautiful legs (men & women) and I love the big skirts lifting high and the ladies gorgeous legs seem all the more stunning. It is such a rare gift that dancers have and I am just gobsmacked by them.

[quote]It is such a rare gift that dancers have and I am just gobsmacked by them.

I feel the same way. It's inspiring to watch, when people can really dance.

I'm with R23.

Who was the guy Astaire practiced all his routines with? Is there any footage of them dancing together?

And...any rumors?

Hermes Pan, who was gay.

This is one of the best dance numbers of all time.

Ann Miller and Tommy Rall in "Kiss Me Kate."

Music by Cole Porter.

I'm sure the world has been waiting all these years with baited breath for DL's final assessment of Ginger Rogers! #basta!

No love for Ruby Keeler's taping??

All of Eleanor's best dancing was done without a partner.

r89 Who did she tape?

Not true. I know I keep harping on this but her numbers with Astaire are fabulous(well not I Concentrate on You. But that's because it's sung like a dirge.) and among her very best. And there is a real electricity between the two otherwise they wouldn't be so compelling.

I wish they had done another film together.

[quote]I loved it when Edward Everett Horton shoved a traffic cone up Erik Rhodes ass.

He could've gotten away with it with THIS Erik Rhodes (RIP.)

Even though dancing was third on her list, triple-threat Judy Garland made a SWELL partner to Fred as well!

"I fell like Fred Astaire's dances (in the movies) with Eleanor Powell were far less romantic than his dances with G. Rogers."

Yes. The great Eleanor wouldn't have gotten the job because she was more macho than Astaire.

R89, yes I adore Ruby Keeler's tapping.

She is just so dang charming! Love her.

R92, what movie contains "I Concentrate On You?" TIA.

Miss Ellie sez......

I Concentrate On You is from Broadway Melody of 1940.

Not only does it include the two great numbers I'm always talking about but it includes the terrific Please Don't Monkey With Broadway(if only they hadn't) with Fred and George Murphy.

Fred and Adele visited and performed in London with some regularity and were friendly with Jessie. Fred requested Jessie for A DAMSEL IN DISTRESS but RKO and Gaumont-British couldn't come to terms with a loan-out. A great pity as she and Astaire would have been exceedingly well-matched. Here's an unusually elaborate number from SAILING AWAY (1938) with Jessie and Jack Whiting - both heavily indebted to the Astaire-Rogers numbers and brightly original.

[quote]R87 Ann Miller and Tommy Rall in "Kiss Me Kate."

The cockney porn version, KISS ME CUNT, was better.

A wonderful film of Jessie Matthews is Evergreen with a Rodgers and Hart score. Though I could have done without the musical number that looks like it came from Lang's Metropolis.

And an interesting anecdote about Adele who was known to be very sexually active(she even got Cecil Beaton into bed with her) said 'George Gershwin was not heterosexual. If he was I would have known.'

Ma-a-ame......

Ginger was a commie hater, and her mother was worse.

Let us not forget the effervescent Miss Jessie many years before Miss Julie......

Ginge.......

and her boys

Thank you for that, r105. YouTube used to have good quality clips of Jessie from FIRST A GIRL and EVERGREEN ("Dancing on the Ceiling") , but most of them are now of dismal quality.

MGM supposedly wanted Jessie for one of the BROADWAY MELODY movies which seems bizarre given Eleanor Powell's presence. The studio did lend Robert Young to Gaumont-British for IT'S LOVE AGAIN.

Everybody knows that Ellie Powell's best partner was Gracie Allen!

I agree that she did her best in solo dances but was also great with partners. This one with George Murphy, Feelin Like A Million, is my favorite.

The Eleanor Powell of Nazi Germany: Marika Rökk!

"I'm ten years old and I imitate Eleanor Powell!"

"...baited breath...."

R8-- also, bated breath.

Her duets with Bill Robinson are the most famous, but her number with George Murphy from LITTLE MISS BROADWAY (1938) is amongst her snappiest.

But, R100, if Jessie had done Damsel, we wouldn't have immortalized on film the terpsichorean talents of Joan Fontaine.

[bold]I'm trying something [/bold]

Let's see if it works

[quote] Everybody knows that Ellie Powell's best partner was Gracie Allen!

I smell a lesbian. Are you R108??

I wonder who the genius was who put Joan in a musical. All the Fred and Ginger RKO movies opened at Radio City. The Music Hall rejected Damsel.

I think we can all agree who Ellie's best partner was.......

R117, I bought Damsel for the song "Nice Work If You Can Get It" by Gershwin.

The version in the film is none too exciting, and the film is kind of a bore.

R117, thanks for that bit of trivia re the films opening at Radio City!!

The terpsichorean stylings of Mlle Brigitte......

This is the best and most interesting DL musical thread in a long time.

I think Damsel has a funny goofy routine in a fun house with Burns and Allen.

Ginger Rogers had a strange up-and-down career in the '40s. Fewer snappy comedies like ROXIE HART or THE MAJOR AND THE MINOR and too many films like TENDER COMRADE, HEARTBEAT (as an 18 year old pickpocket?!) and MAGNIFICENT DOLL. And only two musicals: LADY IN THE DARK and THE BARKLEYS OF BROADWAY.

And now in an act of percussive cultural appropriation.......

***MISS ELEANOR POWELL***

Fred and Rita doing the lovely "I'm Old Fashioned".

Thank you for that. To dance barefoot like that on a hard stage is a killer.

Very brief clip of the only known footage of Fred and Adele dancing together.

The tappa-tappa-tappa part.....

Thank you R128, didn't know about the footage--it's a shame that Adele is mostly blocked, but she was clearly lighter on her feet than Ruby Keeler.

You are welcome, R130.

That's Marilyn Miller coming out first.

Ya want a killer, r127?

I'll give ya a killer.....

I liked that AFI clip. It's easy to understand how two such massive talents would have an incredible amount of respect for one another.

I also just noticed that when I watch these clips I get this huge, goofy grin on my face. The joy of watching these magnificent dancers just sinks in and spreads out.

Rogers is so great in "42nd Street" and "Stage Door."

These lady tumblers practically steal the show from Ellie in "SENSATIONS of 1945"

R134, Ginger sure is great in 42nd Street and also Golddiggers of 1933.

She became "classier" in her RKO films with Fred.

If you have never seen "Golddiggers," check it out!

Ginger in Shuffle Off To Buffalo in 42nd Street.

Ginger in "We're in the Money" from GOLD DIGGERS OF 1933.

You're welcome R120. I'm the one who also wrote that Flying Down to Rio(one of my favorites)was the Hall's first Christmas movie and was on the Catholic church's Condemned list for'33.

Maybe the film was so popular because of that and everyone had to see it. And bring their children.

I highly recommend Ginger in I'll be Seeing You which is a surprisingly dark drama(shell shocked soldier meets woman who's killed a rapist) for a popular movie of the mid 40s.

R130, I just love Pre-Code Musicals!

Dolores Del Rio appears in WB's "Wonderbar" which stars Al Jolson and Dick Powell.

I also like to imagine my grandmother seeing old thirties movies back in the day. It was nice to know that she probably took herself downtown to Radio City.

I meant, thanks R139!! Love those Pre-code musicals.

Please see above!

Eleanor in 1963. Jesus, this number is almost 10 minutes long!

Fred and Ginger were only supporting players in their first pairing "Flying Down To Rio", but they stole the film from the leads. Cyd Charisse was a far better dancer than Ginger , but had no acting chops when the music ended. Cyd fared better with Gene Kelly.

My favorite Ginger Rogers film was Stage Door. She had a lot of top-notch competition (Hepburn, Ball, Arden, etc), but still stood out.

If I had to pick my favorite dancer, it would probably be Vera-Ellen. Her number "Mandy" from White Christmas is one I could watch again and again.

R135, How is that musical number not better known? Between the tapping, tumbling chorus girls and Eleanor tap dancing with a horse, it is some sort of movie musical fever dream.

R144, Stage Door is okay, but Katharine Hepburn is such a drag.

I do like it for Ginger Rogers, a very young Ann Miller, and, of course, Lucy!

I saw Ginger Rogers in "Annie Get Your Gun" at the Carousel Theater in Framingham, MA in 1960 or 1961. A summer theater with a huge tent. Ethel Merman, Anthony Perkins and Ella Fitzgerald also performed there other summers. Great musical, just o.k. performance. Not sure why. Perhaps she was just old to play Annie.

So, Dlers, which are our favorite Fred and Ginger movies?

My top three would be: Top Hat, Swing Time, and Gay Divorcee.

Next: Roberta, Follow The Fleet, and Shall We Dance. (They are not really leads in Roberta, but I love "Smoke Gets In Your Eyes."

Then Carefree and Rio

And I haven't seen The Barkleys or Vernon and Irene Castle!

R146 here.

Sorry, I forgot Eve.

Stage Door is outstanding for showcasing a young Lucy, a young Ann Miller, and a young Eve Arden!

R146, Eve Arden and her cat !

R150, lol. Yes, I forgot about that.

If you want to see Eve in another MGM role, I recommend "Ziegfeld Girl" with Judy G, Hedy L, and Lana T.

Eve has a small roll, but she is great.

[quote]Everybody knows that Ellie Powell's best partner was Gracie Allen!

Same goes for Fred!

R148, I've seen them all and you're not missing much with the last two--Barkleys is pretty much standard Metro fair and 40s Ginger lacks the beautiful lines of 30s Ginger. The Castle dance numbers are all recreations of Vernon and Irene Castle's dances, so they lack the same dramatic quality of the classic Fred and Ginger numbers.

Anyway, my favorites--Swing Time, The Gay Divorcee, Top Hat. Roberta and Follow the Fleet are tied. Carefree I've only seen once, so I need to give it another look. Shall We Dance drives me nuts because the great song from it is "Can't Take That Away From Me"--and they *don't* dance to it. Who's terrible idea was that? It was bad enough that Astaire/Rogers dance to it in Barkleys as a kind of make-up, but it's not the same. Shall We Dance could have been one of the very best of musicals with a ballroom dance number and a frickin' Gershwin score.

Rio's cute, but just a beginning.

Eve Arden in her autobiography "The Three Phases of Eve," recalled Ann Miller's reaction on the set of "Stage Door" to a newspaper headline announcing the death of Jean Harlow in 1937:-"She was chewing gum ferociously and murmuring sympathetically as she tapped a time step: 'Oh my gawd, poor Jean Harlow. Oh my gawd, poor Jean Harlow!' "

R62 Eleanor Powell was incredible in tap and acrobatic dancing, but Vera-Ellen I believe was the best all-around female dancer; in addition to tap and acro, she could also do jazz and ballet and tap en pointe, which she did in her first film, "Wonder Man". Fred loved her--he said she could do any type of dance you gave her to do, and she's one of the few who danced twice with Fred Astaire, Gene Kelly and Donald O'Connor.

Here's Vera-Ellen's debut number in "Wonder Man" with the majority of her dance part. She's absolutely incredible; I wonder what those Goldwyn Girls must be thinking of the new girl in town!

Like Joan Crawford, Ginger had a very long career as a leading lady, beginning at the start of the Sound Era and still a leading lady in the early 1960s, if not in film on Broadway and TV specials.

And like Joan, her persona changed as she aged. From the early 1930s when they were the ultimate cool It Girls (Ginger even sang in Pig Latin!) through the 1950s as Great Ladies of the Silver Screen.

Another performance of Ginger's I've always loved is Cary Grant's wife in Monkey Business, where she does a variation of her Major and the Minor bit of playing a teenager.

The "Wonder Man" Vera-Ellen is the only film where she has her natural nose. She had it needlessly bobbed by her next film THE KID FROM BROOKLYN (1947)

[quote]r104 Ginger was a commie hater, and her mother was worse.

The hardboiled backstage drama THE HARD WAY (1942) is supposedly about their ruthless rise in show biz. (Tho they made the leads into sisters instead of mother/daughter.)

Jane Powell was a wonderful dancer, actress, comedian, especially when she is best remembered for being a soprano (who could also belt jazzy songs as well). Besides "Royal Wedding" and some of her other films, when she appeared on tv, many of her musical numbers had her doing dancing that had rather involved choreography that required a dancer like herself. She was only like 21 when she was starred opposite Astaire in "Royal Wedding" after June Allyson dropped out due to pregnancy and Judy Garland had been fired because of, well all the crappy drug problems MGM had inflicted on her.

Ginger Rogers was a fine actress, and apparently had a good enough voice to have been the lead in "Girl Crazy" and introduce unmiked "Embraceable You" and "But Not For Me" in the same show that made Ethel Merman a star doing "I Got Rhythm". She and Astaire had unmistakable chemistry, but she had like only 1 solo number in all their films together. Besides being a capable ballroom partner, she really had a dramatic subtext going on during their numbers, along with Fred, that really made them seem like little one-act plays. I recall she was fun with Cary Grant in a couple of films as well, "Monkey Business" and "Once Upon a Honeymoon", as well as "The Major and the Minor". I haven't seen "Kitty Foyle" for years; I guess she was fine, but I don't recall being that impressed with it.

Fred was marvelous, and he had a lot of style, but he wasn't a particularly good-looking guy. He oozed class, elegance, pizzazz, but not sex appeal. But there was some kind of connection between himself and Rogers that just kinetically and emotionally drew audiences in then and still exists today.

Ginger knew how to keep acting while she was dancing - the way she looks into Fred's eyes - the way she continues to interact and express the songs artistically - I can't think of any female dancer who did a better job of that, while being an adequate dancer. She usually wasn't portraying a professional dancer anyway, so dancing perfection wasn't really important, but selling the story, the relationship, the sexual or romantic tension between the two WAS important, and Fred wasn't the easiest guy to "sell" that way - she did it!

Did anybody else ever do that? She was also exquisitely beautiful from about 1934 to 1939, the heyday of their films, and she had a fabulous trim body. It was truly a match made in heaven and her dancing ability could be considered "just right" for what they were trying to achieve (the sort of My Fair Lady side of their relationship - him older, more experienced and talented as a dancer - her the perfect ingenue for him, and he was a very hard man to match up.)

As they said, "She gave him ass, He gave her class."

"Ginger knew how to keep acting while she was dancing ....."

Yes, R162, that is exactly what made their pairing so special!

If you remember when IMDB had message boards (miss them!) I remember reading that Fred knew he was not a classically handsome man, hence there are not many kissing scenes between Ginger and himself. But Ginger always falls in love with him after one dance! (No matter what absurd misunderstandings took place before!)

One of Fred's most intricate ballroom dances included tapping and waltzing, and since Ginger Rogers wasn't really known for tapping, he was very happy to have Vera-Ellen to do this particular dance with in the third part of the Courier and Ives section in "the Belle of New York". They are wonderful together.

Ginger didn't age well - and before '34 (The Gay Divorcee year), her face was a bit plump and her style too brassy for him. And after their last thirties' film (The Story of Vernon and Irene Castle), her soft features became sort of hard and sinewy (like her body). Maybe if she'd darkened her platinum hair - but she did that in '40 in Kitty Foyle and that didn't really work either.

Maybe she just had this glorious time period -- sort of like Vanessa Redgrave around the time of Camelot or Elizabeth Taylor up till 30ish (and Vivien Leigh wasn't all that gorgeous from her mid-30s either. In any case, who in the world would ever have predicted Fred and Ginge would be the perfect screen pair, just at the right moment in their lives. I actually credit her more than him, she was just delectible -- but he had a gamine charm himself till about 40, when he started looking like a shriveled up little old man. He was never handsome but had a kind of impish big-eyed sweet boyishness that hung on, helped by her, of course.

Looking back, he looked a bit ridiculous with later love interests they tried -Rita Hayworth, Judy Garland, Joan Fontaine, Leslie Caron (oh lord), Audrey Hepburn (even worse!) Just that one magical pairing, which ironically he resented, after spending his entire show-biz life up to 30 playing second fiddle to his more charismatic older sister Adele, on stage. That turned him into the ultimate workhorse though, which paid off very well.

His sister thought he'd never had any sex appeal whatsoever till one show late in their career with a Jewish leading lady named Tilly Losch (The Band Wagon, 1931 - the Broadway play, not the film). She always called him "Moanin' Minnie" because he was a perfectionist who wanted many many rehearsals and tweaks - and she wanted to party all the time. Well, anyway, I think he was closeted but you couldn't really be, in his day - well, not with his ambition - I've heard rumors but who really knows. (please speak up if you do!!)

I like "The Barkleys of Broadway". Perhaps because I saw it on TV as a kid before I ever saw any of their older, classic films.

TBOB, where they play a long time married show biz couple takes on the "she's only a good dancer because of him" with her wanting to do a drama to prove herself. Lots of misunderstandings, a split up, etc. Oscar Levant brings the humor and the color is really lovely.

Of course, there is the finale of "You Can't Take That Away from Me, but I really like this "rehearsal" number called "Bouncing the Blues. They are obviously not the younger people of the earlier films, but they don't pretend to be. The And I like Ginger's hair and her pants and shirt outfit.

R166, thanks for your insights.

Yup! Judy Garland turns down the very young and handsome Peter Lawford because she is in love with Fred in "Easter Parade. " As if!

Actually, that film has one of the more ludicrous plots for a musical with fabulous I. Berlin music and great dance numbers.

I've always been a bit obsessed with Fred Astaire. I think he was OCD. He had a young girlfriend in his 60s named Barrie Chase (I think he even said she was his best partner? but he could be ever so polite so maybe that was it.) Anyway, she'd go to his house for dinner and he'd count out how many peanuts she was allowed to eat before dinner was served.

He talked in his book (Steps in Time) how his dancing weight was 135 (at 5'9") and before a Broadway show, his dinner was always one bowl of chicken soup. He complained about Leslie Caron eating big steak dinners and being too fat (she ignored him, saying she was hungry!) He adored Vera Ellen because 1 she was a great dancer but more importantly, 2 she was skinny as a rail (probably anorexic.) He also said Eleanor Powell could tap dance like a man, really slamming her feet on the floor, and he admired that.

He loved the race track, owned some horses, and ended up marrying a female jockey named Robin something when he was about 80 and she was in her late 20s, much to the chagrin of his daughter Ava who hated her... Oh well, fascinating man. He even wrote a hit song or two but I've forgotten the name - maybe one was "I'm Building Up to an Awful Let-down". One of the biggies, Berlin or Cole Porter, loved his phraseology when he sang their songs, though his voice was a bit thin and reedy. And he was a pretty darned good pianist with a jazzy style, very much his own.

Ginger was married to Lew Ayres for most of the period when she was working with Fred in the 30s. While they were separated for some time before they divorced, I like to think that much of her dancing sparkle was inspired by Ayres' enthusiastic fucking.

I thought he did a good job in a dramatic role in "On The Beach".

I always imagined Fred Astaire being an anoying fussbudget, offscreen.

R172, no, that would be Edward Everett Horton!

R172, Perfectionists often are.

Yeah - a fussbudget and one who'd almost have a nervous breakdown with every film, worrying himself sick about how it'd be received and such. He wanted to retire in the 1940s but was cajoled into doing more films by producers and what not...

There was an odd side to him -- he was very idiosyncratic with his clothes. He would wear a necktie as a belt and often wore garish colors (in his private life). And David Niven tells an odd story about him and Fred in his own autobiography -- one night, in the wee hours before dawn, he said he and Fred drove around Beverly Hills painting every one's mail box some bright color. I've often wondered about that - would houses in Beverly Hills even have mailboxes in the 40s and 50s?? Oh, and it was Noel Coward who told Fred to name his autobiography "Steps in Time." What I like about that story is apparently he was a friend and houseguest of Noel Coward ahemmm...

Yet all those women -- and so young. He couldn't have been that unpleasant or they wouldn't have hung around. I think he was very appealing, in his way -- truly sui generis. Oh and his family in Austria had been Jews who converted to Catholicism in order to avoid persecution. He himself became an Episcopalian because he was obsessed with high society - his first wife was a socialite introduced to him by some famous woman named Whitney... oh now I can't remember, but one of the real creme de la creme people in New York society - they met on her yacht.

The Barkleys of Broadway was originally conceived for Fred and Judy because Easter Parade had been one of the top grossing films of 1948. (And of course, Easter Parade had originally been intended for Judy and Gene Kelly.)

Carefree is a throwaway. It only has four lackluster musical numbers; the big hit was supposed to be the new dance sensation, The Yam. IMDB and WP both list the running time as 83 minutes but I've never seen a print that ran over 65 minutes.

Strictly third rate. I was Fred's best dancing partner.

Another vote for that irrepresible songbird Lucille LeSewer

Yep, that's from Dancing Lady, a 1933 big budget MGM musical starring Joan. The original That's Entertainment included clips from it just for LULZ. Astaire and Nelson Eddy both made their film debuts in that film.

While Fred Astaire was a great dancer technically, and I know this might ruffle some feathers here, his rat like face, skinny frame and meekish voice are hard to look past-- he just doesnt have the overall energy, presence or command that a great dancer should have, meaning no one would notice if he walked into a room if they didnt know he was "Fred Astaire".

I think his voice is just fine.

R176, on IMDB lots of folks like Carefree. They think the plot is pleasantly wacky, and that is a welcome change from all of the mistaken identity plots of the other Fred and Ginger movies.

Thank you R178. Now that really IS entertainment and so much better than the trash you see coming out of Hollywood these days.

The new dance sensation, The Yam:

Thanks, R178. Joan was talking more than she was singing!

I felt a distinct Busby Berkeley vibe in that number!

[quote]R184 The new dance sensation, The Yam:

It's a little known fact that this dance was reshot when The Asparagus didn't go over well with test audiences.

I seem to remember some critic, maybe Pauline Kael, writing about Crawford dancing with Astaire, and using the phrase "her feet, dipped in lead..."

Well if you give any credence to Scotty Bowers he outs Fred Astaire in Full Service.

He must have been bi because he truly loved his long time wife and was completely distraught when she was dying of cancer in the mid 50s. Leslie Caron talks about how he was going through enormous emotional pain while making Daddy Long Legs.

He had a last magnificent go round for a 57 year old dancer in Silk Stockings. Effortlessly charming and dancing at his best perfectly paired with Charisse. It's also a lot of fun watching Peter Lorre enjoying himself in a musical comedy.

OT, but I remember one critic wrote of Cybil Shephard in At Long Last Love "She dances with bovine splendor." It was much repeated at the time but searching the phrase on google all you can find is a pinterest collection of cows. Does anyone remember who wrote it?

^ Er, Cybill Shepherd. But does anyone remember who wrote that?

Thanks R188. I knew I'd read hints - and why can't bearded gay men truly love and be devoted to their wives, even if their sexual desires lie elsewhere, so to speak. Especially in those "just lie still and think of England" days.

A very longterm relationship Fred had was with Hermes Pan, which wikipedia calls a "well known homosexual." Throughout their adult lives, they very closely collaborated - Hermes would dance Ginger's part and he would also work with Ginger, teaching her, as Fred would be busy with every aspect of film production, and Ginger made five or six films a year (Fred only one) and they would catch her when they could and she would be gotten up to speedy by Hermes before Fred came into the picture.

Fred Astaire was not gay. He was racist though.

R192. Why do you say that? Is it b/c he did a blackface number in "Swing Time"?

The black face number in Swingtime, Bojangles in Harlem, is a sincere tribute to/appreciation of Bill "Bojanges" Robinson. It superficially looks racist to modern eyes but wasn't considered so at the time, not at all. Robinson felt honored and the two were friends.

Fred confirmed Niven's story about painting the mailboxes in his racing colors--he said it happened right after his wife died and he was a little nuts as a result.

His necktie as belt style can be seen in the Fourth of July firecracker number--which is worth watching anyway--remember, it's not special effects.

Niven always struck me as gay, despite a wife or two. This was show biz, even back then, and Fred was a dancer who started with ballet lessons for God's sake.

Niven's appeal absolutely eluded me. Talked like he had a poker up his ass. Looked like a frightened ferret.

Dancing Lady with Crawford and young Clark Gable (at his absolute hottest) is a terrific MGM film and well-worth catching, even if you think the number at r178 is a little silly. Great camera work throughout that was obviously influenced by German Expressionist film and much of it succeeds beyond Busby Berkeley's Warner Bros. backstage musicals. I think it's one of Joan's better efforts of the early 1930s.

Fred only makes an appearance towards the end in the Heigh Ho, the Gang's All Here number and it was thought that his somewhat insensitive treatment by everyone at MGM pushed him to RKO where he could have more artistic control of his films.

I'm so glad r167 posted that number Bouncing the Blues with Fred and Ginger at the twilight of their pairings.

Though Ginger looks a little heavy and her hair is really too long for a woman of her age, she is irrepressibly delightful dancing next to Fred and IMHO matches him step for step. As a matter of fact, I watch her more than him....she steals the number. I don't know how anyone looking at that could say she her dancing talent didn't come up to his.

"I Used To Be Color Blind" from CAREFREE is one of the oddest Astaire-Rogers numbers. The number was intended to be shot in Technicolor (The set looks like Fred & Ginger in Munchkinland with the castle from SNOW WHITE) but either Astaire hated the Technicolor tests or RKO got cheap at the last minute. The slow-motion dance portion is an interesting novelty.

A few years ago, my ex and I were walking through the immaculately polished Florence Airport. He looked down and burbled:

"Ooooh...Van Nest Polglase floors!"

Disney fans should check out BACHELOR MOTHER (1939). Donald Duck toys are EVERYWHERE. David Niven speaks in "Donald Duck" talk, his voice dubbed by Clarence Nash, the real cartoon voice of Donald.

(Disney films were distributed by RKO)

In the mid-40s, Disney artists supplied the artwork for a boxed set of records of Ginger as Alice in Wonderland, coinciding with Disney's flirtation of using Ginger in his ALICE as a combination live-action - animated film.

I'm just going to leave this here......

I get a big hand at the beginning of my number AND I tap in wedgies!

Roz could kick up her heels.....

You are welcome, R199.

I like how he tweaks her chin at the 0:09 mark.

Ginger was 38 and Fred was 50 when they did this.

Why do you insist Fred was not bi. Even Minnelli spent much of his life married to women and had Liza.

Herbert Ross is another one. In Arthur Laurents' autobio he talks about Kelly rumors. Was this his discreet way of outing him? He didn't have to say anything.

Grace wasn't bi, r208.

She was a great dancer and that is why she and Fred partnered so often

Hollywood in the 50s.

Everyone was at least bi.

Shirl had to get back to fighting shape for this number.

Thanks, R212. Shirl is such a semi-wacko, it's good to remember that she was once an (almost) triple threat.

R201, Hermes Pan is not really such a strange name. He shortened his last name from the Greek "Panagiotopoulos." His dad was a Greek immigrant.

Actually, Hermes Pan kind of looks like Mr. Astaire!

Ginger Rogers was very appealing in her 1930s films, but it seemed like by the mid-40s or so (she was still a hilarious delight in 1942’s “The Major and the Minor”) a hardness has begun to set in. And by the 50s, she’d become hard to take. And she was embarrassing playing a Talullah Bankhead-type in “Black Widow”.

But she had some swell ensembles, r216!

Ginger, with her notoriously ruthless stage mother, Lela (on left).

I've never heard [italic] specific [/italic] stories about her, but would like to.

Lela is actually pretty good in her small part as...that's right...Ginger's mother in The Major and the Minor.

Ginger came off very self-righteous in her autobiography.

But she snagged that hot Jacques Bergerac, so I tip my at to her!

D’OH! I tip my HAT to her!

Yes, "The Barkleys of Broadway" is fairly standard MGM fare, but considering that it wasn't originally intended to be an Astaire and Rogers reunion, I'm glad it was made, if only for the chance to see them together one more time, 10 years after their last RKO movie. And in color! I'm also glad they made up for the missed opportunity of dancing to "They Can't Take That Away From Me." It's a lovely number.

In her later years, the studios stopped covering her chin mole with makeup.

Just putting that out there.

[quote]OT, but I remember one critic wrote of Cybil Shephard in At Long Last Love "She dances with bovine splendor." It was much repeated at the time but searching the phrase on google all you can find is a pinterest collection of cows. Does anyone remember who wrote it?

It was me. But I meant it as a compliment.

In 1978.

Her voice is surprisingly young sounding there, R225.

Jesus, after about 4 decades of dancing, you'd think she'd be sick to death of it. But she gives it her all, and pulls every trick out of the book to keep it rolling.

THAT'S a trouper.

Hermes really could be a spectacular choreographer considering some of the numbers he devised with Astaire.

Not only Astaire individually or with a partner but some of the production numbers Astaire was involved in.

Which is why Living Together Growing Together is such a head scratcher.

There's something kind of amazing and joyful and touching about all these ancient and sometimes corny troupers. They worked so hard for it to be right and beautiful AND exciting back when dancers loved to dance. Now they love to dance until they can get a TV gig.

I love Fred and Ginger and I was not alive for even the second wave of nostalgia for them - the That's Entertainment films. They were glorious dramatic romantic fun SEXY sycopated swoony beauty in motion. Ginger had a gorgeous figure and grace with that slightly jerky but exciting 5th gear of speed and abandonment she reached in some numbers. I guess Fred was pretty much smooth erect pure line perfection but no less wonderful for it. He lacked a bit of emotion in his style but with Rita Hayworth he seemed less a taskmaster and a lot more human. I am not the expert that others are here but I read that Rita was his favorite partner to dance with. She also had a gorgeous figure and beautiful arm positions. She danced her whole life and had great facility and beauty and that wow sex appeal. She was second tier compared the great tappers and the classically trained but along with Ginger she is the one I most enjoy watching dance with Fred. Garland, forget it. Why do people pretend she could do anything more elegant than vaudeville dancing? She had charm and timing for sure but no line or beauty as a dancer.

Thanks to all the posters here for the beautiful clips and their illustrative comments.

What was their best and worst film? I always hear "Top Hat" mentioned as the best, but is that the critical opinion? Also, I never hear anyone mention the Vernon and Irene Castle movie ever. Why?

^^As someone else mentioned upthread, in the Vernon and Irene Castle movie, Fred and Ginger danced in the style of the real-life people they were playing. It was the only movie in which they played characters drawn from real life. It's the most atypical of their movies and marked the end of their partnership at RKO.

It's kind of dull. They seems to be strait jacketed by trying to imitate the Castles. Irene Castle was also an adviser on the set and she was supposed to be a royal pain.

To give her credit she was a strongly committed animal rights activist from at a time when people weren't thinking of animal rights. She was horrified by the way animals were treated when she was working in vaudeville.

uh 'seem'

There's a cute number in Barkleys called "My Highland Fling." Complete with Scottish burr.

Ginger appeared on an episode of HERE'S LUCY......she, Lucy, and Lucie appeared in an Andrews Sister song and dance number.

Irene Castle made Ginger's life hell during filming by insisting on approval of all of Ginger's costumes and hairstyles. But Ginger put her foot down when Irene insisted she bob her hair, a hairstyle first worn and popularized by Irene Castle.

For the person asking about Ginger's mother there's a youtube video of Lucy talking about her which is interesting.

R235, when she put her foot down, was she dancing?

R53 Wrong. Ginger appeared in a fourth season episode of “Here’s Lucy,” “Ginger Rogers Comes to Tea” in 1971..

Ginger also appeared on the Dean Martin roast honoring Lucy.

Lucy talks about Ginger's mother, Ginger and even about being intimidated by a young Kate Hepburn during the filming of Stagedoor in a great multipart doc about RKO found on youtube. Check it out! And Lucy is quite uncharacteristically charming and modest in the interview.....quite delightful.

Somehow Ginger found her way to the board of directors of my bf's college. And when their drama dept. produced Our Town they were able to get Ginger to agree to play the Stage Manager in it, which was a pretty radical but novel idea back in 1975.

Well, apparently Ginger didn't want to attend many rehearsals so when it came time for dress rehearsals and they realized she couldn't remember most of her lines, they added another role for a student and called him the Assistant Stage Manager and he cued Ginger through the evening.

And she left them a hat from Kitty Foyle as an opening night gift, which the college cherishes to this day.

Ginger Rogers, dance on air.

Ginger's mother was a notorious stage mother, but Fred's was also supposed to pretty gung-ho--Fred and Adele started on the vaudeville circuit as kids to get out of Nebraska (and who could blame her?). But I don't know any specific stories about either. Gypsy Rose Lee's and June Havoc's mom still comes off as the all-time psycho stage mother--the portrayal of her in Gypsy definitely pretties up the picture.

As may have been recommended, "The Primrose Path" has some of Rogers' most subtle acting. And hunky Joel McRae. Directed by Gregory LaCava, who also did "Stage Door" and "My Man Godfrey."

She really couldn't hold a note....

That's not uncommon for a dress rehearsal. They save the real juice for the actual performance.

That was an actual performance, r245.

[quote]She really couldn't hold a note....

She could barely sing a note.

I did more with less.....

The mink dress would have been a perfect reference for Ginger's Blackglama ad.....had she done one. I can't find one. Why in the world did they not get Ginger???

Has this been posted?

You sure did, Gertie at R248. I never thought I’d see a performer upstaged by her gown until I saw that clip!

Julie Andrews didn’t have a mink-lined gown, but she still managed to perform a more impressive (those last two notes!) and memorable version of “The Saga of Jenny”!

Let's give Lynn at least an "E" for Effort......

But the film of Lady in the Dark was a big success even if Ginger hated the Saga of Jenny dress.

Star! well everyone knows about that one.

I love Redgrave's proper striptease.

And she was properly costumed, r254.

Paramount paid Ginger $200,000 ($2,833,609.20) for LADY IN THE DARK. "My Ship" was cut, supposedly because executive producer Buddy deSylva hated the song.

Paramount paid $285,000 for the film rights to the stage hit, a record at the time. $115,000 to producer Sam Harris, $85,000 to librettist Moss Hart and $42,500 each to composer Kurt Weill and lyricist Ira Gershwin.

Film costume designer Edith Head is credited for Ginger Rogers' modern day dress in the Paramount Pictures feature film-musical "Lady in the Dark." Broadway-film couturier/set designer Raoul Pene du Bois is credited in the feature film as the costume/set designer in the circus dream-musical dance sequences. Paramount film studio art department supervisor Hans Drier was the Paramount feature film's Production Designer. The film's director Mitchell Leisen, (formerly a set and costume designer), supervised and contributed his creative imaginative set and costume ideas, suggestions, in the creation of the film's scenery and costume applications.

Leisen was instrumental in creating the mink-fur skirted gown lined in jewels for Ginger Rogers' musical circus sequence. Raoul Pene du Bois designed this costume which has usually been attributed to the films lead costumer Edith Head.

The first mink gown was created, and during fittings and rehearsals, the costume's fur lined jeweled weight was just too heavy for Ginger Rogers to walk, nor to stand (up) during long filming sequences, nor to dance or perform in a choreographed production number. The first original gown, lined with matched paste-glass rubies and emeralds, cost $35,000 (in 1944 dollars) to manufacture. Brief shots of Rogers in the fur skirted paste-jeweled gown were photographed.

The New York costume wizard Barbara Karinska was at the cross town - Culver City MGM studio collaborating with the costume designer Irene on the Ronald Colman and Marlene Dietrich filming of "Kismet." Raoul Pene du Bois, who had collaborated with Barbara Karinska in New York City's Broadway theatricals, begged, imploring Madam Karinska to remake the fur skirt to enable Ginger Rogers to perform and dance in the musical production number. Karinska made a second version of the mink dress, lined with sequins, which, less bulky - weighed less, was lighter for Ginger Rogers's choreographed dream-circus-dance production number. Studio costume departments maintained a fur vault providing fur pelts for coats and costume trimming. The floor length mink skirt for Ginger Rogers used mink pelts from this vault. The original show-piece mink skirt, too heavy to wear, was rebuilt as a new costume. Karinska built a wire hoop covered with a fine netting, hanging and spacing the mink pelts apart from each other; supported by net, reducing the number of mink pelts on the skirt's total weight, allowing the skirt's flexibility on the actress' body during the dance sequence. Both gowns are shown in the movie. The original fur-skirted gown with the paste-glass jewels was donated to the Smithsonian Institution. The second fur skirted gown was DE-constructed, with the fur pelts returned to the studio's fur vault. Karinska was never credited for building this particular Ginger Rogers - dance-costume.

[quote] Karinska was never credited for building this particular Ginger Rogers - dance-costume.

That don't seem right R256. Dang. Can you imagine how often shit, like that went on though? And still does today, no doubt. Oh Hollywood. They eat their young and then some.

Forgive my comma dance. I was in a mood.

Barbara Karinska is legendary in the world of costuming.

As far as I know, once she worked with Astaire, she didn't make any musicals, beside Lady, with anyone else. Except for Sales Lady.

I'd like to take another look at Storm Warning

Dry ice was used to create the smoke effect in the dream sequence. In between takes, several women had to use irons to dry out Ginger's dress...

The director was trying to get a shot of Ginger in the mink dress, when Ginger said she had to go use the facilities.....the director said okay.....everyone waited....and waited....and waited.

When she finally returned more than thirty minutes later - it was discovered that Ginger had left the Paramount lot and gone next door to RKO (the studios were separated by a fence) the use the facility in her OWN dressing room at RKO.

Let s not forget Carol's contribution to Saleslady, r260.....

Christ, no wonder RKO went under.

Ginger's revenge for all those bloody-feet rehearsals with Fred.

It's shocking today to see how these brilliant musical numbers from the 1930s and 1940s were shot in so few cuts. Even Bouncing the Blues at the end of Ginger and Fred's collaboration, when neither were spring chickens, was filmed with only 3 cuts.

They all took pride in this achievement back in the day and I imagine the talents that watched each other's films took great notice of this sort of thing.

Eldergays, you have outdone yourselves with this thread.

And what's amazing is that these films were made and played in theaters before us eldergays were even born.

We saw them on tv as young'uns.

Poor Carol. Movies were not her medium, but she was a genuine star on stage. I never really understood why until l saw her in the 10th-anniversary production of "Hello, Dolly!" She brought tears of joy to my eyes. Yeah, I know. Mary!

Of course, she needed good material. About 12 years after seeing her in "Dolly," I saw her and Mary Martin in "Legends." Not a whole lot of joy to be had in that wretched play, which I saw again years later in D.C. with Joan Collins and Linda Evans. It was ghastly, just ghastly.

I think Astaire was in large part responsible for the use of extended takes and long shots in filming dance. His contract stipulated that. While the close ups and frequent cuts in a movie like "Chicago" can make for visual excitement, I don't think that dance is really being presented.

The close-ups and frequent cuts in CHICAGO were handy cover-ups to hide the fact that its stars couldn't really dance.

Interesting about Karinska, I knew she was NYCB's costumer, but I didn't realize how innovative she was.

Arlene Croce wrote that while Lady in the Dark made money it kind of destroyed Rogers's stardom--there was no place left to go with the persona she developed. Most people don't realize that after the Astaire/Rogers films, Ginger was actually a bigger star than Fred. She went out of fashion (and didn't age all that well--as you can see in Barkleys--Katharine Hepburn, Loretta Young, Irene Dunne, Jean Arthur all looked less matronly at 38 than Rogers). With her mother being part of the anti-commie crowd, there was further reason to write her off when film history became a big thing. Fred, meanwhile, retired, came back and had a second career in the MGM musicals.

Fred was a perfectionist, but that's what made him kind of a perfect dancer--I'm sure he was a major pain-in-the-ass in a lot of ways. He felt his hands were a bit large, so he always held in his middle finger slightly to make them look a bit more in proportion. If you watch him with Eleanor Powell in Begin the Beguine, she can match him tap for tap, but his upper body moves a lot more gracefully and his arm and hand movements are precise and designed to emphasize parts of the music. Hers are less controlled.

R270, you're right. Astaire had control over the cutting of his dances from the start--even in Flying Down to Rio--and he never surrendered it. You had two parallel methods of filming musical numbers in Hollywood at the same time--the Astaire long take style and the Busby Berkeley kaleidescope method that required lots of showgirls and little actual dancing.

Funny thing is, both work--what I really hate are unmusical jump cuts where you can't see the dancing when there's dancing.

Another reason RKO went under (and I think this was one of their very last productions): "The Girl Most Likely," with Jane Powell starring in a musical remake of Ginger's "Tom, Dick and Harry." And featuring DL's favorite ElderLez, Miss Kaye Ballard!

I remember reading a quote from Ginger about movie dancing later years (after her time)

Something like this...and she wasn't giving a compliment...

[quote] These people dance with their faces.

She was referring to the multiple cuts in musical numbers and not using a full length view of the dancers to see their whole body moving from head to toe. Cuts being used that were supposedly a dance number where you did not see the dancers' feet.

R273 One instance which really killed a potentially good musical film was "Cotton Club" which kept cutting away from musical number and even a great dancer like Gregory Hines!

R276, So true--saw it when it came out, just a terrible mess of a movie with a ton of talent buried beneath the insane direction. Coppola directed more than one musical and had zero aptitude for it.

The name Astaire was totally a fabrication. And what a great name it was for him.

Carmen Miranda also had it in her Fox contract there would be no interruptions or cutaways to audience reactions during her numbers.

[quote]Coppola directed more than one musical and had zero aptitude for it.

"Finian's Rainbow" has its moments.

The soundtrack of Finian is very good. Listened to it a lot as a boy not knowing the obc. Don't know if it was released ever on cd.

Saw it as a boy at the drive in and found it boring. Haven't seen it since and think I should give it another look.

Love the obc. One of Broadway's great scores.

The FINIAN'S RAINBOW soundtrack has been released in both a 14-track version and an expanded 17-track version.

I never miss a Don Francks musical.

I've always been quite fond of One From the Heart.....

I missed KELLY.

R278, I think it was from "Austerlitz."

When you've grown up with the Finian's Rainbow soundtrack with lovely Petula Clark, Ella Logan's catterwauling on the OBC are quite a ......revelation.

LOL, r287. I remember many years ago having that exact same reaction.

Another Finian's Rainbow soundtrack fan here.....bought it for $1 many years before I saw the movie. Loved the songs.....the movie not so much. ...very disappointed in most of it.

I guess Fred and Ginger's choreographer Hermes Pan started the movie, but got fired a few days into filming. He kept the credit, though.

And of course there is the story that Gower Champion was working with Ginger Rogers when she was going into DOLLY in New York....and having a LOT of trouble with her. He walked out of the theatre and met Pan who was walking down the street.

Champion: My God, Pan, why didn't you tell me!

Pan: My God, Gower, I thought you knew!

[quote]Pan: My God, Gower, I thought you knew!

"My God, Hermes" would've worked better.

....of course Fred did his own choreography.....but Hermes was his associate. The guys would work out the routines and then Hermes would teach Ginger her part.....

If my math is correct, she's 53 in this Hollywood Palace number. Nothing taxing but it is rather stylish and clever.

Her 1961 pilot......

r289: Ginger worked her ass off in DOLLY and sold a lot of tickets, even went on the road with it. But she was not amongst the favorite replacement Dollys. Lots of star demands, did not talk to most of the other cast members and especially not the chorus kids.

If you watch the RKO documentary it's pretty clear that Ginger had little warmth toward anyone. She's very unlikable, prissy and petulant. Not generous at all. Lucy and Hepburn are vibrant and funny and full of warm and thoughtful observations about their old co stars and studio. Ginger is there to praise and please herself. And she looks grotesque.

How utterly....uh....fabulous(?) this must have been.....

I have the impression that Ginger is one of those people whose success turned her head.

If you see pictures of her in the original cast of Girl Crazy she is beyond adorable and was supposedly very friendly during the run.

An old friend told me when he was young he saw Ginger in Dolly and on stage at least she was very generous to the other performers. I was like really? When I told him she did not have that reputation he seemed surprised. He was mostly an opera and ballet guy.

Also got that Finian soundtrack as a remainder and it came wrapped with the movie souvenir program. Yes Ella is very different but I love her as well as Petula. She's very funny in Something Sort of Grandish. It's amazing that there were people here citing it as bad lyric writing. Can you imagine?

I'm guessing that because Ginger began in films as a bit of a floozy and then was principally known as Fred's dancing partner for most of the 1930s (in spite of all the other non-Fred films she did), she developed a chip on her shoulder about being taken seriously and simply never recovered. Her Great Lady grandiosity just grew and grew throughout the next 2 decades and never really recovered.

It's another reason I love her in that 1950's Bouncing the Blues number posted way upthread where she looks so adorable and unpretentious.

Miss Stanwyck hoofs it old school.....

R298, for Ginger as Great Lady, nothing beats her declaiming of La Marseillaise as Sarah Bernhardt in "Young Sarah," the play within the film of Barkleys. It's supposed to be great acting and is both hilarious and excruciating.

R297, how could anyone think that Yip Harburg wrote bad lyrics? He was brilliant.

She's an ass here. Even a monster like Crawford would know enough to feign sympathy for a young actress or the type of character she played in Stage Door.

Agreed, R295, Katharine Hepburn and (especially) Lucille Ball come off charming and insightful in the RKO documentary at R301. Ginger Rogers comes off insufferable.

Ethel Merman and Ginger Rogers were planning a concert version of "Girl Crazy" when Merman became ill and never recovered. Would Merman have received top billing? Probably, because the concert would have taken place in New York City.

Older Ginger came off as cold and superficial--trapped in the past with that awful long blonde hair. But back in the 30s, not only was she appealing on screen, she was considered fun and liked on set--she was known for being good with a one-liner, enough so that there were jokes about her being an honorary gag man. Instead of maturing, she just kind of hardened into place. Her personal life doesn't sound like it was successful--married four times, none of them all that long, no kids, no real family from the sounds of it, except for her stage mother. You don't even hear much about big friendships, though it sounds like she was on decent terms with a lot of people.

I tend to think her later unpleasantness was less about her career trajectory (she had a good career and had a nice array of starring roles post-Fred) and more about a limited, unhappy personal life.

Backstage in Dolly on Broadway and on tour, and in The West End as Mame, she was considered as professional in the basics but distant and even unpleasant by her co-performers and crew. Nobody who worked with her then liked her. I think there's a thread about it either here or at BWW. And she was allegedly cheap on those few occasions when a star was expected to be nice if not generous.

Basically, she turned into her mother.

Don't we all, r306?

She talks about not taking some roles she wishes she had. I believe she was offered Ball of Fire first but turned it down because the woman was too common. I guess she felt she had evolved beyond that. Stanwyck certainly had a longer more important career because she felt up to any role as long as it was a challenge. But I don't think she ever had the international popular stardom Rogers had at her height.

Rogers also turned into quite the jerk in terms of Fellini's Fred and Ginger but her business sense was advanced when she demanded compensation for whenever her likeness was used for any purpose even on greeting cards which today is demanded by the estates of any iconic star.

I think she comes of as pretty good and thoughtful except when she talks about Stagedoor and only knowing successful women in the industry and having nothing in common with the characters in the film or not knowing other women like them. You wouldn't know it by her performance. Also the Oscar displayed behind her is as obnoxious as her clown clothes and makeup. On earlier interviews as in the 60s she sure doesn't look that ridiculous.

When the young Betty Grable was given a peppy novelty number ("Let's K-nock K-nees") in THE GAY DIVORCEE (1934) which attractive positive notes , Ginger made sure Grable was given nothing to do in FOLLOW THE FLEET (1936) Later that year Grable was dumped by RKO.

Betty wasn't the only one tripped by Ginger: Beautiful Phyllis Brooks had most of her scenes (and all of her close-ups) cut from LADY IN THE DARK.

Grable who was known as one of the nicest most generous people in the industry had no use for Rogers.

"I'd like t be a cheesecake girl, a pin-up girl, too. And what is Ginger Rogers that I am not? And what has Betty Grable got that I haven't got?"

Both Ginger Rogers and Dorothy Lamour wrote about an imbroglio in their autobiographies regarding their “Hello, Dolly!” bookings. Producer David Merrick booked Rogers for a Vegas production, and when she got there, she learned it was standard procedure to have two shows each day, including some very late night shows. Rogers checked her contract and learned that it prevented this loophole, so Merrick was forced to book Lamour to do the second shows. According to Lamour (always well-liked by the industry,) Rogers didn’t allow her to rehearse with the company and she also snagged her preference of all the shows she’d perform. Now, one could say Rogers was booked first and this was her prerogative, but it’s one of those “What Would You Do?” situations that illustrate character.

Rogers was a bitch, but her icing out Betty Grable was a shrewd bitch move--Grable did have star quality and she would have been in direct competition with Rogers for roles in terms of type. I'm sure Rogers was taught by her mother to do whatever it takes to keep herself on top.

That BBC series on RKO is interesting--Astaire also sounds tough--says all the "girls" cried during rehearsal--except Ginger--the plus side of all that toughness is that she could work with Fred Astaire and his perfectionism for 10 movies and still being on speaking terms with him at the end. Particularly as it doesn't sound like Fred valued what he had with her until years later. She made him believable as a romantic leading man--and having seen him in a clip with Joan Fontaine, I'm not sure another actress could have done that--and he needed someone who could.

Interestingly, she helped out Katharine Hepburn in a similar way in Stage Door. Rogers was the more popular star at the time and Hepburn went in and out of being box-office poison in the 30s. In Stage Door, Rogers' wise-cracking persona brings Hepburn's lofty rich girl down to earth and gives her a chance to show she's on the side of the common people.

Ironically, Rogers was a red-rock Republican and Hepburn a liberal Democrat (her mother was a suffragette). Hepburn did have the blue-blood background and Rogers was from Nowheresville (Missouri).

Even DL icon Eleanor Powell could be a bitch and Astaire was a racist as has been pointed out.

The discipline of these people was extraordinary and they weren't going to be perfect people in dealings with others.

I'd like to see a little documentation on the Eleanor Powell bitchiness, please, r314.

So in what way was Astaire a racist? And don't use the Bojangles of Harlem number as proof. Minstrel black face was way more acceptable then and the Bojangles number was a tribute to Bill Robinson as much as anything. It's also the only time Astaire did blackface as he didn't like doing it.

Not saying he wasn't a racist, but what's the evidence?

r315: In BROADWAY MELODY OF 1938, little Judy Garland was to have a part of the "Your Broadway And My Broadway" finale, right before Powell was to have the great taping finale. Judy's number was recorded and filmed and when Powell saw the finished number she pitched a fit and demanded Judy's number be cut. After Judy's show-stopping powerhouse vocal performance, who the hell wanted to see Powell?

Alas the film of Judy's number does not survive. Powell probably demanded that MGM burn the negative.

I love Bojangles of Harlem. It is one of my all time favorite musical numbers. Fabulous.

I'm referring to what 'Jeni LeGon (August 14, 1916 – December 7, 2012) an American dancer, dance instructor, and actress. She was one of the first African-American women to establish a solo career in tap' had to say. She plays Ann Miller's maid in Easter Parade(talk about a waste of talent!) and knew Astaire when she was young. What she had to say about him and his attitude towards black performers when he was a star at MGM was not flattering. He though when he was much older made a big deal about loving I think it was 'Soul Train.' He also used the term n----r music but maybe it was common in the 20s and 30s.

I also read an interview with a very talented child dancer who was put in a Powell film and the star insisted she wanted her out. The producer overruled her, the kid stayed and Powell did a 180 on her suddenly becoming very friendly. This was from the kid herself when she was an adult and it still unnerved her it seems. Sorry don't remember her name.

Another interesting tidbit from Arlene Croce's wonderful book, and if you're a fan of movie musicals it's a must read, is that the character played by Walter Brennan in The Story of Vernon and Irene Castle was in reality an African American. As advisor on the film Irene wanted it played by a black actor and was angry that she was refused. As difficult as she was she was very progressive for her time especially for a woman who was born in 1893 and became a star in the teens of the 20th Century.

And ' She was one of the first women to popularize bobbed hair, and her easy style of dress formed the transition from the curvy, post-Victorian fashions to the streamlined flapper of the 1920s.'

R318, Okay, that's more like that. Probably not egregiously racist for the time, but not a big forward thinker, either. It sounds like he evolved with the times--thus, his comment that Michael Jackson was his "heir" as an entertainer. He didn't, however, dance with the Nicholas Brothers onscreen the way Gene Kelly did.

And good for Irene Castle.

Interesting about Jeni LeGon, I was just hunting for early black women tap dancers--I could think of a number black men tappers and plenty of white women tappers, but not black women.

Was it Irene Castle who burned her long hair when she was ironing a dress, causing her to cut it short thereby inventing bobbed hair? Has anyone ever heard that story? I haven't seen the Astaire/Rogers film but maybe that incident is even covered in it?

I don't know that Irene Castle was necessarily difficult. She simply wanted truth in her life story if it was going to be filmed by Hollywood. Not unreasonable from her point of view.....and she was a MAJOR celebrity back then, after all.

R310, and her marriage to Clark was legendary.

Well r320, Miss Dandridge seemed able, but she looks to have a bit of a sliding problem.

Miss Dandridge doing what appears to be Cotton Club choreography in this unfortunate number.

Dorothy barely gets through that tap sequence--admittedly dancing between the Nicholas Brothers isn't a good look for most people.

Even in the Pirate Kelly has them doing an uncharacteristic number so they don't blow him off the screen. And I love Kelly but his ego is infamous.

Irene Castle and friend.

Poor Jean Harlow, poor Jean Harlow.......

Didn’t Fred Astaire copy most of a Nicholas Brothers routine? Or was it Gene Kelly?

I thought I recalled seeing both routines shown side by side.

The Nicholas Brothers would have become stars at least as big as Astaire or Kelly had they been white.

I wish we had more of them to see on film.

Fred Astaire was well-established by the time the Nicholas Brothers came along--if he managed to copy one of their routines at 40+, I'm impressed. He did admire them though.

I don't know that the Nicholas Brothers would have become big stars--they were tiny with somewhat high speaking voices--they would have been difficult to cast in romantic roles, which was something pretty much required of musical comedy stars.

Astaire and the Nicholas Brothers did meet and tap together once though--just found this on YouTube.

R330, that's wonderful. Thanks!

r322 Clark who? Betty Grable was married to Jackie Coogan and Harry James.

Clark Grable, of course. Brush up on your Hollywood!

Harry&Betty&Desi&Lucy

Do you think they swapped?

Well, I think Betty once joked to chorus boys in her act that they'd be envious of her, for Harry's gifts. Since she was pals with Lucy, maybe she loaned him out.

Clark Goebbel

Betty Graebel

Greta Garble

Harry was supposedly as horse hung as they come. That was probably the gift Betty told the chorus boys they'd be jealous of.

What a filthy racist at R330!

Is it Ginger Rogers?

Or Catherine O'Hara as Lola Heatherton?

[quote]Harry was supposedly as horse hung as they come. That was probably the gift Betty told the chorus boys they'd be jealous of.

And goodness knows what trumpet players can do with their lips!

I went to the last tribute to MGM at Carnegie Hall hosted by Feinstein. There were still enough impressive stars left to have one. Shortly after they started dropping like flies. Is Jane Powell the only big MGM musical star left alive? Maybe you can include Ann Blythe but none of her films are among the classics though I think she's quite wonderful in Kismet.

Anyway at the tribute one of the Nicholas brothers was there and I believe his brother was dead at that point. I was thrilled to see him still alert and strong even though an old man. June Allyson was with him at the podium and said I always wanted to dance with you. I thought 'Yeah June.' Even if the offer had been possible and been made I seriously doubt at that point in time she would have done it.

Well, she did dance with the Blackburn Twins!

How swell, r343!

So, the first interracial dance couple onscreen was Shirley Temple and Bill Bojangles Robinson, which was the first pairing where both partners were adults? Agon was the groundbreaker in ballet with Arthur and Diana Adams, but that was in New York, where it still raised a fuss.

The most "liberated" casting in the history of dance was Japanese native Sono Osato as Miss Turnstiles in the WWII Broadway musical On the Town.

R346, (Diving into YouTube), what a fascinating story--and she's still alive. She was selling her "fabulous" Hamptons estate three years ago. She did well for herself.

I should have posted: Japanese native Sono Osato as the All-American Girl Miss Turnstiles

Well R345 Joan Fontaine and Harry Belafonte in "Island in the Sun" (1956) get kind of handsy.

Betty and Desi were fucking when they were both on Broadway in 1939: Betty was in DuBARRY WAS A LADY and Desi was in TOO MANY GIRLS. Desi did not meet Lucy until 1940.

When Lucy co-starred with Desi in the RKO film adaptation of Too Many Girls.

TMI:

Too Many Girls is a 1940 American musical comedy film directed by George Abbott and written by John Twist. The film stars Lucille Ball, Richard Carlson, Ann Miller, Eddie Bracken, Frances Langford, Desi Arnaz and Hal Le Roy. The film was released on October 8, 1940, by RKO Pictures.[1][2][3] Both Desi Arnaz and Lucille Ball credited the production for bringing them together. They married on November 30, 1940, less than two months after the film's release.

Amazing footage of the "Jivin' Jacks 'n Jills" Reunion Banquet (late '80s - early 90s I think) with Peggy Ryan, Fayard Nicholas, Margaret O'Brien, Patti Andrews, Ann Rutherford, Stanley Rubin, Kathleen Hughes, Diana Herbert, Dick McInnes, Mala Powers, Betty Garrett, Virginia Mayo, Gloria Pall, Joan Leslie & Jean Parker.

Peggy Ryan does a little dance with Fayard Nicholas.

Everybody looks pretty good except for Virginia Mayo looks like she was scraped off the bottom of a pan.

More footage from the banquet.

And since all DL threads eventually come to this topic:

"IT'S JUST LIKE 'FOLLIES'!"

I wept openly upon viewing the clip at R340. Poor, poor Lola Heatherton. So fantastically talented, so deeply troubled. I don't think she ever really recovered from her childhood of working in the coal mines of West Virginia. Nor do I think she ever got over her great love - Johnny LaRue.

I care Lola. I care.

And then "Too Many Girls" became the story of Desi Arnaz's life.

It already was.

Here's a rather brilliant dissertation on her.

That's really a fine analysis. I just wish he had brought up her performance in I'll Be Seeing You.

I thought her very good in the dark dramatic role she plays nicely matched with Joseph Cotton.

From '44 the year of the awful but successful Lady in the Dark.

That's a great blog - thank you for posting that, r358. It is maddening that it has no archive or index.

Excellent analysis, R58 — thank you for sharing!

She so didn't deserve that Oscar for KITTY FOYLE. What a mediocre film and performance.

R346, R348, Sono was an American, born in Omaha. Miss Turnstyles is race-less but her casting was controversial because it was suggesting race-mixing.

I agreed with most of the above analysis except for The Major and the Minor. I still think it's one of her best performances. (didn't hurt that it was written and directed by Billy Wilder!) She should have won (or at least been nomintaed) for that rather than the sappy performance she gave in Kitty Foyle. What a nothing movie.

Instead r363, the movie made the character an anorexic.

Spic and Spanish!

This...is...TOO Fabulous!!!

Thanks R358, what a great essay on Rogers. She had talent, but not much self-awareness, it seems. Astaire was much, much smarter about managing his persona in terms of roles and presentation. Her bad taste/vulgarity must have grated--but the partnership benefited from that--that feather dress in Cheek to Cheek is stunning in movement.

Fred is sort of gracious about Ginger in that BBC 4 documentary on RKO--close enough to the end that he finally admitted that she never cried and kept working like crazy and that she added something as a partner that no one else had.

Did any other star as big as Rogers was become so deeply unfashionable? It's to the point that people don't realize what a big star she was because her later performances were so grating. It's really only her 30s stuff that's shown these day--the Fred and Ginger pictures, Stage Door and Gold Diggers.

Don't look at me!

Unlike the big male stars who began in the 1930s and were lauded for several decades: Gable, Grant, Stewart, Tracy, Cooper, Astaire......their female equivalents (with the exception of Kate Hepburn): Crawford, Davis, Stanwyck, Russell and Rogers, were all criticized for becoming hardened caricatures of their younger selves.

It's all rather misogynistic, isn't it?

There have been many criticisms about the men being too old and looking too old for their younger female costars especially Cooper and Astaire looking so haggard in the 50s. Grant himself was open about being uncomfortable as to how it looked and at the time of Charade insisted on changes in the script.

And god knows it is no different today. It is still being discussed.

Contemporary audiences are no better. It must be something hard wired into us for some reason.

I think it's a procreation thing, r371.

Yes that double standard of casting misogyny remains. But the old actors get laughed at now when they do it. This doesn't change the fact that Davis, Stanwyck, Russell, Rogers and Crawford DID physically harden and emotionally freeze in middle age in way that actresses of today don't. Those old bitches were tough and they looked it. The parts written required them to be at least surfacely hard. Hepburn got the Rainmaker and Summertime, but there weren't any films allowing an actress in her fifties to play the maturity, vulnerability, sexuality and viability of that in their time. And none of those old monsters could have played it. They did match up the old bitches with some younger men, but for betrayal, never for true romance. Times change and the business changed. An actress is more protected now throughout her career. No one need become the monster or ghoul. Though ancient Jane Fonda and Diane Keaton are not exactly an improvement. It's just a different false formula. Anne Bancroft played the best mature parts because she was so damn truthful she refused to play an oversexed old lady or any woman as less than complete.

Annette Bening, Julianne Moore and Hubert are also good examples. They may or may not have a young love or any mate at all in a film role. They are still fully female.

Anyone who wants to see Ginger Rogers films made after 1950 must be a very big fan of hers.

Bette Davis is a different story. She had a blazing talent and she chose roles that fit her physical monstrosity and decline. There was pathos and vulnerability there, she was gutsy. She wasn't all cutesy-pie with the chickensies on the ranch, just waiting on a call to come dance, again.

The fact is, everyone's looks harden as they age. It just looks better on men.

Hayworth was not a better dancer the Rodgers.

[quote]The fact is, everyone's looks harden as they age. It just looks better on men.

Now THAT'S misogynistic. And untrue.

Rogers, though, faded in her 30s, when the other actresses mentioned had thriving careers at that point--Irene Dunne didn't even really get going til her mid-thirties. Stanwyck kept working and doing good work well past middle age. Hepburn had the good fortune to have the kind of face that aged extremely well. Davis and Crawford played caricatures by the time of Baby Jane, but both had good roles in their 40s (All about Eve, Mildred Pierce).

Yes, the misogyny toward older actresses was and is an issue, but that's not what did in Rogers' career.

I have a lot of respect for Julianne Moore--she quietly keeps doing a lot of interesting roles. She did her big Oscar campaign and finally nabbed it, but then went back to quietly doing interesting roles without spending a lot of time on "Look at me!" stuff.

Rita had a graceful abandon about her when she danced.

Rita was a lovely dancer--she just wasn't an ideal physical match-up to Fred--too much oomph and a bit tall and not quite delicate enough for him. She looked better with the stockier Gene Kelly, even though he was shorter than Astaire (one of those facts that still kind of surprises me.)

Ginger won an Oscar and made some of her biggest hit films when she was in her 30s, r377.

And she starred on Broadway in Hello, Dolly! and in London in Mame in the mid-1960s when Bette and Joan were were reduced to horror films and Stanwyck to TV westerns.

I've been on DL for about 15 years and this is the first Ginger Rogers thread that's gotten any traction and so much admiration (as well as some well-earned criticism). But nice to finally see some attention for this lady!

Will we ever do the same for Greer Garson or Kathryn Grayson?

Fuck Greer and her nostrils.

Who and what R381? Ginger was seismographic compared to those two, one of whom I don't know. Don't be maudlin. Greer fucking Garson? What spirit of authentic life or movie joy did Mrs. Pidgeon bring to anything? Don't fuck up this thread with nonsense. Greer Garson, well I never.

R378, the choreographer Jack Cole, who arranged Rita Hayworth's "Put the Blame on Mame" number, had this to say about her-

"Choreographer Cole actually dances with Rita on screen in this movie, in a number called "What Does an English Girl Think of a Yank?" He stepped in when the scheduled male dancer sprained his ankle. Cole was unprepared for Hayworth's intensity: "So I rehearse with Rita a couple of times and we're ready to start. Well, baby, I don't know what hit me when they turned the camera on... When it was for real, it was like 'Look out!' Suddenly this mass of red hair comes hurtling at me, and it looked like ninety times more teeth than I ever saw in a woman's mouth before and more eyes rolling, and was the most animated object ever." "

That's our Rita, r384!!!

Hepburn had facelifts. I know she had at least 2. But they were subtle and not the desperate complete overhauls they have today that make some people, both men and women, frightening. In fact I think they look even worse on men.

People, even John Wayne, yes he had one, did not try to look younger, they just wanted to look less tired. A bit of freshening up.

Streisand insisted she would never have one. She was too frightened of going under the knife. I don't know why she looks like she's had some bad work done.

Streisand may have had some work, but I think it's many the nose she didn't want to touch because she thought it might affect her sound, especially since some nasality is part of her particular sound (along with a head-belt mix at times). Plus since people razzed her about nose all her life, it's her big fuck you to everyone who told her she should have it fixed. Except, since she made it so young, she didn't really have to put up with that much rejection from too many auditions she never heard back from. Apparently her mother didn't encourage her and her step-father said ugly girls don't deserve ice cream. So it sounds like stuff which started in her own family.

that is, "mainly the nose".

Come on R386. I guess you are older and I respect that. This a a great thread. But the facelifts that people had 45 years ago are very different from the procedures of today. Katherine Hepburn had beautiful bones to tighten her fragile skin to. She also was never fat or a drunk or unhealthy. I wasn't even born in 1975 but I love old films and read all I can. I believe Hepburn had only one facelift. See her in Love in the Ruins and you will see her sagging skin. She is more vibrant in Golden Pond some years later. So maybe she had two but I doubt it. There were many bad facelifts back in those days. Lana Turner, Hedy Lamarr, Charleton Heston, Merle Oberon, Gloria Grahame and Don Ameche. If John Wayne didn't look younger it's because he couldn't. A facelift was just a tightening of the skin at that time. Before brow lifts and neck lifts and botox and fillers, there was just a slice and tug around the ears and sometimes another incision and lift into the hairline. It worked best on fine skinned older women who weren't trying to look 45 again. Bette Davis had one of the great facelifts just before she did Hotel and had her stroke. She looked like a pretty old dame, better than she had in 25 years.

Plastic surgery threads are boring as is the quest for who did it best. But Streisand went for 55 years saying she would never dishonor herself that way. She has done more than scientifically possible at the time of the stretch and tug and she looks like George Washington's grandmother. She was a sexy woman once. Then a strangely stuck in that Donna Karan suit stuck in time kind of sexless young looking for her age woman. Her nose? Nobody cares about her nose. A great singer should not touch their nose with surgery it's true but many of them did and do. (gaga wasn't always so nasal or harsh) Streisand loved herself her whole life and demanded that you love her fat ASS too 40 years before Kim K shoved hers in your face. Streisand had a lot of face work done and she was caught the first time bandaged like the mummy. She had the full face and neck and brow lift w fat injections. For Fockers. That was only the beginning. She wanted to continue to spew her bad voice at top $ and attempt to make films so she lost her fucking mind with fillers, further neck work and in her case deforming amounts of botox. She looks hideous. Hepburn and Davis had the best facelifts of their time IMO. They didn't look a day younger, they looked like pretty older women. But if they had today's options of "looking" even younger they might have taken them too. Somehow I doubt it. Regardless Streisand is grotesque in all regards and doesn't even deserve to be in the same sentence as Ginger Rogers.

Hepburn had one in the 50s and one before Coco.

So she had 3?

R386

Actually, the one person who DIDN'T have a faceelift is Rogers. (Lucy didn't either) She was scared of the knife and so just covered up her neck and troweled on even more make up and the scary blond hair kept getting bigger and longer.

Ginger was a Christian Scientist. They stay away from docs if they can.

Interesting stuff here -- aging, surgery, etc...

I'll say, Hepburn did get work done and admitted such.

Rogers, I presume, didn't because of her Christian Science beliefs. She refused treatment after a series of strokes towards the end of her life. Surgery would seem out of character then.

It seems Christian Scientists frown on cosmetic surgery. Makeup's allowed; scalpels and needles, not so much.

Anyone got a link to that clip of Saunders as K Hepburn and French as Rogers?

Catherine does one of the better Katharines....

Hepburn lent herself to parody so easily. Hard to believe she was once taken seriously.

Here you go r395. Jennifer really does a rather rotten Kate (compare to Catherine's). The treatment of Ginger comes off as rather cruel. I don't think Kate lent herself to parody any more than Bette did, r397. Though her progressive essential tremors did give an added element to parody.

Parodies of Bette are based on a mix of Margo Channing, Baby Jane Hudson, Liz Taylor as Martha. Less Bette herself.

Parodies of Hepburn simply recreate her as is.

Interesting observations on Ginger Rogers and plastic surgery.

Ginger and Fred reunited for the 1967 Oscars. Ginger not at all starchy and hard here.

Angie said she had a face lift for the original production of Mame when she was 40.

Clearly the Dr did a terrific job but then he/she had little to do. Still they could have fucked it up like they do with nose jobs on young people sometimes.

Lansbury also admitted to getting one during the run of MSW. I think between S7 and S8. It looked good. You wouldn't notice it, but she looked rested.

As a little boy I remember seeing a picture of Rogers in the red Dolly dress and her face really scaring me.

Very kabuki.

Talk about an undersung Annie!

Rogers was a bitch and even her mother had to tell her to treat her fans better. They made her. I think even Lucy's mother told her(Lucy) she acted like a bitch.

Ginger, Lucille and Bette all seemed to have similar relationships with their mothers.

Also Judy and Gypsy Rose Lee, r407. That's one reason a lot people believe Judy might have nailed Rose if she had ever played her. There was brief talk of her doing the film but of course it never would have happened since Roz and her lizard husband snapped up the film rights early on.

(Roz's husband, producer Freddie Brisson, was also her agent/manager and called the Lizard of Roz. They were not well liked.)

But Judy and Gypsy (and June) distanced themselves from their mothers. Ginger, Lucille, and Bette remained close to theirs to the end. So there was a somewhat different dynamic going on.

Ginger is quite good in a mother role in 1956's Teen Age Rebel.

She wasn't a great beauty either. Coarse features with a big face covered by no small amount of facial hair.

No, when she was young in the early to mid 30s she was pretty and a real cutie.

I think her being cute/pretty more than beautiful was an asset in her partnership with Fred Astaire. He was funny looking himself, so his being a believable romantic partner for a great beauty like Rita Hayworth was not as believable as it was with Ginger. She seems like she really likes him in "I'll be Hard to Handle", which was done on the first take and just has a lot of charm.

Ginger is wonderful as the mother in that scene and it is well written despite starting off as rather arch.

But there are moments when you feel it could use a few vicious slaps.

Rita was such a spectacular graceful dancer the only one who came up to her level was Astaire.

Though Kelly comes pretty close in Cover Girl. Problem is except for the early loan outs he was locked into MGM as she was into Columbia.

One of the great movie what ifs is Pal Joey with the two of them in the mid 40s. That late 50s version is pretty bad and Rita though clearly Sinatra's age(she was actually a few years younger) is embarrassingly stuck as the older predatory woman. She deserved better.

R411, didn't Judy send Ginger a shaving mug at the start of Barkleys, in which Judy had first been cast?

Astaire ruined FUNNY FACE with Audrey Hepburn because he was so homely. But Ginger's "beauty" was smoke and mirrors, especially with the copious peach fuzz. Loved what they said Judy Garland gave her when Ginger replaced her in THE BARKLEYS OF BROADWAY....

Still even at that late age in Funny Face and Silk Stockings Astaire was impossibly classy and stylish. We don't even have one male today at any age who can compare.

I saw Donen speak at a showing of musical clips from his films at the Walter Reade in Lincoln Center. They showed the Bonjour Paris number and he recounted how they shot Astaire walking down the Champs Elysee by the Arc de Triomphe very early in the morning with a concealed camera so people wouldn't realize what was going on until they had gotten it. As a boy he had adored Astaire movies and he claimed when he sees Fred jauntily striding in those few moments it still brings tears to his eyes. And he was there directing and shooting it!

Rare film featuring Ginger as one of the "Stars of Tomorrow of 1933". with Johnny Mack Brown and artist Willy Pogany :

Ruth Hall, Patricia Ellis, Lilian Bond, Boots Mallory , Evalyn Knapp, Dorothy Layton, Dorothy Wilson , Mary Carlisle , Marion Shockley , Toshi Mori , Gloria Stuart , Eleanor Holm , Ginger Rogers, Lona Andre.

I love Boots and snarky Lillian Bond.

Better than me!

They always looked to me like a couple of BPDs. The drama, the exhibitionism, the fluid sexuality, the sexual assault, the drugs, all that talk of emotional pain, and finally the suicide. Typical borderlines if you asked me.

r421: I think you posted on the wrong thread.

Sorry, R422, but that's just how Fred and Ginger struck me!

You made me laugh loud, r421/3. Bravo!

"What was it Hepburn supposedly said--He gives her class, she gives him sex."

I guess Hepburn was quite the expert on Gingers giving her sex.

Among those giving Ginger sex were Lew Ayres, James Stewart, and Jacques Bergerac. Lucky Ginger!