Today Marks 17th Anniversary of Plane Crash That Killed John F. Kennedy Jr.

Best thing that ever happened to Hillary Clinton was JFK Jr.'s demise. Otherwise, HE would have replaced Moynihan in the Senate and she would never have gotten where is today... Don't forget - in 2008 the Kennedys went big time for Obama, not her...

R1 is exactly right. JFK Jr. was looking at that senate seat. He would have run against Hillary because she was definitely going to run. Ted Kennedy really had a problem with Bill & Hill. I still can't figure that one out. I remember reading that Ted felt betrayed by the Clintons on a Child Healthcare Bill he was touting. The CHIP program that Hillary now takes so much credit for. he was told he had their support...until he didn't.

I was wondering why JFK Jr. was starting to look a little bloated.

I'll always remember this day. My father had called me to let me know my mom had been diagnosed with cancer and it didn't look good. He said to get a flight as quickly as possible home.

I was in the airport rushing to catch a connecting flight. While waiting to board, I saw a TV broadcasting the breaking news about JFL Jr.'s plane being missing and presumably crashed. I knew in that moment my mom wouldn't make it. She died in August, a little more than a month later.

Every year I remember the day his plane crashed and he died.

Too much time in the water, r3.

God, he was beautiful. I used to fantasize about working for him at [italic]George.[/italic]

I used to fantasize about working his George until he came all over my face.

Kennedy worship was the true betrayal of liberalism. Shame on all of you for participating.

Here's Hillary when she had a jawline.

Lord, he was so handsome.

Chanel??!

He was a dumb ass.

He was such a handsome man! With all that money there was no need for him to be so reckless. Book a flight!

Carole will commemorate the anniversary by tweeting something negative about whoever is angering Frankel, then end the night by sucking off Adam.

In an interview less than a year before he died he John said he had no interest in running for public office.

Trump pal Roger Stone is writing a book alleging that Bill and Hill had JFK Jr. murdered.

Wonder if he'll be invited to speak at the RNC. I hear there's room in the program.

Here's Hillary when she had a soul.

Although he was a handsome sweetheart, he wasn't that bright

What's going on here? Allergies or ____?

I remember driving back from the beach - it's to remember there was a time when we didn't have phones that allowed us to be in touch 24x7 - and just waiting for the next update on the radio about what was going on.

At the time it seemed so tragic, like something out of Shakespeare, but she was a nut and he was clearly an impulsive dope with little judgement. They both probably would not have aged well and I doubt they ever would've had children.

R19 and R11 are correct. I remember hearing about it on CNN then going off to pinch dead blooms in my flower beds. The news had just broken. I remember hoping that Carolyn was indeed on board. I wasn't being mean. I just couldn't take the press fawning over this bug eyed girl. Her face was plastered all over magazines and newspapers. Her style was so common at the time. I used to refer to her as a poor man's version of my friend Erica. When I learned she had perished I felt a wave of relief. I didn't want to watch pap watch as a young widow because she'd be in our faces daily as she aged. I was outraged about poor Lauren losing her life. She was the real deal, not Carolyn.

I don't get the conspiricy believers. He was an inexperience pilot, who flew in bad weather, while it was dark, with no night time instrumentation rating. He should never have made the flight and was warned by more experienced pilots not to do so.

Yeah, he took a chance because he didn't care if he lived or died. Too much pressure. He could never live up to because I'm sorry but he was dumb. His magazine had failed and he was living in a hotel separated from his coke head wife. Things were not going well for him at all. He was failing and flailing left and right. He didn't care so much I wouldn't be surprised to learn it was a double murder suicide. There were reports that Carolyn fa-reaked when she finally realized how dim he really was.

R9, thought that was Babs Walters for a second.

The fog was incredibly thick that night in Massachusetts. I was driving around 2:00 AM many miles inland and could barely see in front of me.

I remember the day he died and I'm European. Who wouldn't want to go deep inside this?

Too bad he wouldn't just come out.

I bet he'd still be alive - with a great, intelligent guy for a partner, someone who wouldn't let him do dumb things or succumb to pressure. They'd be a MAJOR power couple.

No, OP.

The boy was far too stupid

Charter member of the Lucky Sperm Club. His only qualification for anything beyond waiting tables was his name. Why so many people swooned over him escapes me.

R28 is right in that without the name he would just have been another gorgeous man. But he did have the name, mystique, money and he was gorgeous so......

I would have swooned over him with or without the name. I would have ate that ass until I got to the small intestines.

My grandmother was still alive then, but failing. She saw a picture of Carolyn and got really angry with all of us for saying it wasn't that Jessica Parker girl.

An age progression from a couple of years ago, to mark what would have been his 53rd birthday.

He became much more reckless after Jackie died, outliving her by a mere five years.

I've wondered how she would have coped with his death if she were still alive.

I doubt she would have.

JFK, Jr. would never have run for any office. He didn't have his father's political chops.

Spike TV? There's the tragedy.

[quote]JFK, Jr. would never have run for any office. He didn't have his father's political chops

He didn't need them

Just by genes and a descendant. All the while their dopplegangers more superior. He was adorable but dumb and he loaded a plain Jane over us. Not fair.

Too much of a lightweight and a dillittente, he couldn't cut it as a lawyer and his magazine tanked, he would have been just as big a failure in politics.

He committed suicide with double murder. He didn't care. He killed himself. Yes he did.

JFK Jr. wasn't murdered. Give it up queens. With that being said, he would have changed the world with his beauty and politics. He was truly a do gooder.

[quote]I still can't figure that one out.

I'm sure Teddy was also disgusted with Bill's comment about Obama - and rightly so. You can take the white boy out of the south...

He totally killed himself. He did. He committed suicide. Poor Lauren.

Why would he commit suicide this way. Sad queens give up your conspiracy theories.

Suicide.

He committed suicide and a double murder. He knew. Suicide. SUICIDE.

Failing. Suicide.

All because of an argument over $5 tomatoes.

He killed himself on purpose. Can't blame the guy. He took himself out. Suicide.

Yep, suicide. Too much pressure.

That guy killed self on purpose.

[quote] Wonder if he would have eventually made a run for the presidency.

I think yes. Another son of a former leader mirrored JFK Jr and that Justin Trudeau. Here is the campaign ad that sealed the deal and got Trudeau elected.

And imagine JFK Jr doing an ad like this. He would be unbeatable.

Trudeau and JFK jr....can you imagine?

Sigh........

For fuck's sake R40, "he would have changed the world with his beauty"? Are you serious?

It was mentioned already upthread but I was going to start a thread on how different the mourning might have been if Jackie had still been alive when he died. At least he didn't live long enough to have to go on assistance.

I think R40 is sweet.

That fetal alcohol syndrome son of Ted did a several terms in the House with no problems (other than his own issues)

I agree, r48. I think he hated his wife and her sister. Apparently what he did would not have been done by any pilot unless on purpose. Incidentally, I saw him in my gym once and he was cruising like Royal Carribean.

Please post size estimates. TIA.

He died three days after I moved to NYC from CA. Everyone was going down to their apartment on N Moore Street in Tribeca to pay their respects. A good friend of mine I was staying with (who btw killed himself ten years later) couldn't see what the big deal was.

Another good and sensible friend watched a lengthy JFR Jr. conspiracy theory video on YouTube and had a hard time disputing it.

His plane went down on a Friday night. I went over to Martha's Vineyard on that Sunday morning. I started talking to one of the ferry dock workers, asking him if was it more busy than normal. He said there were a lot of media, plus more state police going over to get overtime. (There is a barracks on the island.)

He stated that he doubted that a body would be found since there was a shark fishing tournament in the area where his pane went down.

^pane = plane

r57, Please provide details. I've heard before about his supposed inklings. Perhaps bi?

It was dusk with grey skies and water. There may be no visible horizon. Very dangerous without instruments as you can become totally disoriented as sky and sea appear the same. Add an inexperienced pilot and you in danger giurl.

He was like his mom with the ciggies. He only indulged in private when he thought no one was watching. He was at nearly a pack a day when he died.

Wait .....what conspiracy theories: the murder suicide or Clinton planning to kill him?

I woke Saturday morning to a day long live news broadcast.

Clinton went all out to find him, sending up Navy ships to help the Coast Guard.

No, he intention killed him Self. So sorry.l

So many peasants here. Ugh.

I don't believe he was a smoker.

R67, it was both actually. Bill and Hill secretly arranged his marriage to Carolyn knowing it would drive him to suicide. And then sent Carolyn to Whole Foods for the $5 tomatoes.

Lots of kids grew up poor here. Ouch.

R73.. Ok not a believable conspiracy ...

Sorry, he was dumb. Sorry

He committed suicide, poor thing.

R67, I hope you know I was laughing with you. And also being a smartass.

Why is there no video feat. a table of queens playing cards when this one was announced? I would think the shriek would be even louder for a hunk like him dying.

R73.. Definitely got the joke.. Although some may believe it... As Clintons have limitless Power and influence..

I think he would have run for office eventually. Why not? He really didn't have any particular career. His magazine was failing. I think he would have ended up in politics. If he'd run for office he probably would have won easily, despite having no experience.

I think he and Carolyn Bessette would have divorced eventually. She was not adjusting well to being the wife of a Kennedy, THE Kennedy, really. I imagine the pressure of being in such a high profile marriage must have been great. A lot was expected of her. I don't think would have cut it as a Kennedy wife, just as Diana Spencer didn't cut it as a royal. Some people can handle it and some people can't.

He wouldn't have run for office. Not after what happened to his father and his uncle.

I think he was a laid back guy, more interested in art than in law. His mother tried to run his life & then he married a woman who tried to run his life. I think the flight was a situation like he'd been in so many times before where it was just easier to say yes than to refuse to do it. He figured he'd just get through it like he had so many other times.

What's the story with the $5 tomatoes?

[quote]It was dusk with grey skies and water. There may be no visible horizon. Very dangerous without instruments as you can become totally disoriented as sky and sea appear the same. Add an inexperienced pilot and you in danger giurl.

Bingo. So many stupid queens in this thread.

After the crash it was also said that JFK Jr. may have taken off knowing the weather conditions weren't great, but didn't want to be ragged on by macho relatives who would have teased him for cancelling the flight. Jackie didn't want him to fly - smart lady. She had to know he was beautiful but not that bright.

17 years. It doesn't seem that long ago.

R2, Ted Kennedy's problem with the Clintons is that many eyewitnesses said there was no bad weather that night, and a fisherman said he heard a loud explosion and saw a brief flash of light in the sky before the plane fell. There was always the air of suspicion, and when Bill made the infamous coffee comment- Ted took his opportunity to stab the Clintons in the back.

[quote]Bill made the infamous coffee comment- Ted took his opportunity to stab the Clintons in the back.

What are these?

R87, you mean the coffee comment? He said Obama would be serving them at whatever club they were at when Clinton made the comment to Ted. That was the moment I lost all respect for the Clintons, esp., Bill.

Too bad TNT will never air that American Prince tv movie again.

R75 is humor-challenged

The weather was shit that night, both over NY and MA. He was an idiot. Carolyn didn't want to go, and she should have stuck with that.

Even experienced pilots with instrument ratings have crashed due to spatial disorientation. When you turn the plane into the dark above the sea, it can hit.

The day Bill Clinton was elected, Hillary's evil scheme to kill JFK Jr was put in motion. Monica Lewinski was hired to be groomed as JFKJR's bride, but when she started porking out, Hillary told Bill to let her have a few mercy blowjobs and be done with it. That's why Hillary never left Bill.

Had more than pieces of the bodies been discovered, it would have been revealed that Carolyn was actually a robot. Hillary had the real Carolyn killed on her wedding day. It was the robot who drugged JFKjr and drove the plane into the ocean.

And Ted hated her because she knew the truth about Chapaquiddick and held it over him.

[quote]Too bad TNT will never air that American Prince tv movie again.

How come?

If New York was not available, they would have found another state for her. Don't kid yourself.

He wasn't remotely interested in running for office. He was not ambitious at all. He would have been content as a dilletante trust fund baby but his familial notoriety made it impossible, so he had to maintain at least a public appearance of busying himself with various work-related endevours. Not that there's anything wrong with that.

What was he thinking with that political lifestyle magazine?

Oh why not... I was watching CNN as the news and developments came along. At one point a reporter found Lauren Bessette's business card. (She was Carolyn's sister, also on the plane.) Typical clueless TV person held the card up to the camera so everyone could get a close look... and read the phone number.

I had a pen and piece of paper handy, jotted it down, called the number. It was far too soon for anyone to have shut things down so it went to her voicemail after a "Hi, this is Lauren..." message. Nice voice.

I was tempted to leave some sort of spectacularly fucked up message, something like, "Lauren! Listen to me!!! Your brother-in-law getting you pregnant is no reason to want him dead."

Yes. He was a smoker. I seldom aw him, away from the cameras, without a cigarette in his hand. Same with the missus.

[quote]I would have ate that ass until I got to the small intestines.

This is horrifying even by DL standards.

I think yes. Another son of a former leader mirrored JFK Jr and that Justin Trudeau. Here is the campaign ad that sealed the deal and got Trudeau elected.

Justin Trudeau had the good sense to marry a smart, level-headed woman who turned out to be a great mother. JFK Jnr married a hysterical coke head who had no interest in being a mother.

One of the most beautiful Whiteboys I've EVER beheld. A prime example of personal theory that Sagittarius men are the hottest of all the signs. Grudgingly, even my sign Scorpio.

What could he have done to delay the Iraq War?

He was a dumbo.

Dumb, dumb and dumbass, he was.

True. Trudeau has himself a great daughter. Jr. JFK could never put that out. Especially not with that horse faced Carolyn.

He was dim. Couldn't pass bar exam on the first go. Dumb as a box of hair.

R97, he didn't think. He was dumb.

Haters! So he wasn't Einstein. He was still blue flame hot. Might've become senator from New York, if former 1st Lady of Arkansas hadn't had him taken care of, and took his place. There has to be something up with all the Kennedy mens' untimely deaths. We'll find out one day, hopefully.

The ridiculous dolts on here don't realize how hard it is to pass the NY bar on the first try. What have you cunts accomplished in life?

"At one point a reporter found Lauren Bessette's business card."

A piece of luggage or a briefcase with Lauren's business card as an ID tag had washed up on shore.

Lauren was a twin and that third Bessette daughter has never been heard from in the media since the fatal crash.

I'd be interested in knowing how she coped with the deaths of her two sisters and how she's doing today.

R109, you do realize the common man is superior to thee, right?

Poor twin.

For those who say JFK Jr was DUMB and wouldn't make it in politics

The Conservatives in Canada tried to use that narrative in Canada against Trudeau, with this ad. They previously tried a heavy mocking attack ad like this one

Justin Trudeau "In Over His Head"

Then the Conservatives realized they got more negative feedback from the ads than Trudeau

So they softened the attack ad with this one - Just Not Ready to be PM

Neither worked and only strengthen Trudeau numbers not made then negative

[quote]When I learned she had perished I felt a wave of relief. I didn't want to watch pap watch as a young widow because she'd be in our faces daily as she aged.

Absolutely bonkers post there, R20. No one would force you to watch or read news about Carolyn -- you didn't need someone to die just so things would be marginally less inconvenient for you.

You are a very odd person.

I'm also of the opinion that JFK jr. would eventually have run for office. Definitely. He was very involved with his charity work, but he would have done it. As I look at what we have now, I don't think stupidity would disqualify a person from running...and winning a Senate seat. (He'd never go for being in the House.)

I remember how Caroline Kennedy Schlossberg was pushed into running. For about two minutes. A disaster for her. So awkward and uncomfortable. Not the right personality for it at all. A very reluctant candidate. But her brother? SHIT! He had a public personality and was well spoken. OTOH, he could also go the route of being an Ambassador to some country, like Caroline has. The point is, he was hardwired to serve his country in some capacity.

lol, r35

I remember at the time a pilot friend told me, "Get home-itis has killed more people than you realize." The aviation community was pissed that he had done this when he was clearly an inexperienced pilot and shouldn't have been in the air. They considered it a case of machismo gone bad.

He probably would have run for office at some point, given how capricious he was about his career direction, but it's highly unlikely he would have run for, let alone won, a seat for the U.S. Senate out of the state of New York in 2000. He didn't have the kind of political career at that point that voters would have responded to. Like most Kennedy grandchildren who went into politics, he would have had to start on the lower end, like state rep or US rep - or even New York City's local government. He would've made a great candidate for mayor at some point. But in 2000, he wasn't ready to win a senate race. He was no threat to Hillary's plans.

It took brilliant Hillary three times to pass the bar exam. Didn't pass until she took it in Arkansas. She's a dipshit too. Just a lot more ambitious.

JFK, Jr. loved attention when he could control it. It's for that very reason I don't think he would have run for elective office.

I think he would have had trouble running for office. Being branded the world's #1 snob would not have been mendacious. Being surrounded by a Fort Knox of gorgeous rich sycophants does not endear one to a lot of people.

R121, Hillary Clinton failed the D.C. bar exam on her first attempt but passed the Arkansas bar.

A very good straight female friend of mine who has known quite a few gay men in her life said she saw him at a play once with about 3 other cute guys.

They were being giggly and playful in a way straight men just aren't.

She's convinced he was gay.

I saw him up close a couple of times when he was by himself and the camera does not do him justice. It couldn't catch his aura.

Imagine being in his position, being gay, his father is the victim of the most famous and controversial assassination in history, his mother is one of the most famous women in history, a horizontale who the whore of Babylon would decry for moral turpitude, and you're expected to carry on the name of America's most famous political dynasty.

Considering all of that he conducted his life with a great deal of commitment and grace despite the impossible emotional odds against him.

I wouldn't be surprised if towards the end he often felt he didn't want to be alive.

I think if he had not run in NY he would definitely have run from Massachusetts at some point down the road. I think when Uncle Ted was ready to retire he would've taken his seat. That was always a rumor anyway. And don't say Uncle Teddy was never going to retire, because I think he would have seriously considered it as his health failed. He knew his limitations more than anyone.Teddy was dead ten years after John. I think Ted would have been happy to see John John run for Ted's last term.

[quote] I think he would have had trouble running for office. Being branded the world's #1 snob would not have been mendacious. Being surrounded by a Fort Knox of gorgeous rich sycophants does not endear one to a lot of people.

In Canada they said that about Trudeau, spending MILLIONS in advertising and nothing stuck. Before you say US is different, Trump received over 1 Billion in negative and he is going to be the GOP nominee

With some politicians, they are Teflon and JFK Jr would have been one of them.

It's really pathetic that so many birdbrains think he should have run for office because of his last name. Or even worse, because he was pretty. Yeah, those are reeeeeaaaalll good qualifications.

[quote] It's really pathetic that so many birdbrains think he should have run for office because of his last name. Or even worse, because he was pretty. Yeah, those are reeeeeaaaalll good qualifications.

And they said the same thing about Justin Trudeau

R110, passing the bar on my first try. The LSAT was harder.

R130, not realizing what he wrote isn't a sentence.

OMG would the Justin Trudeau cunt go jump in the fkin Niagara Falls river. No one cares about Canada here. Go away, lol.

No, no. He was barricaded in an elite world of good-looking hangers-on , the most documented ever, that an atomic bomb couldn't penetrate. Justin Trudeau was nowhere nearly that ostentatious. He didn't go to Tulsa or Omaha and be a highway engineer. He made no effort to escape the limelight.

R125, I'll always believe it was murder suicide.

I'm also Canadian and believe there's no comparison or place for Trudeau here. Justin is a physics freak. He's better looking and comes from a true aristocratic family. The sun and the moon.

Now that I think about it, his odd taste in women makes the gay thing pretty believable.

I mean, Daryl Hannah???

He so wanted out. In today's Internet world, he'd be torn to shreds. Exposed for the dumb ass he truly was.

R136, are you anti-mermaid?

A true aristocratic family...a physics freak...LOL god the gays are wierd.

I also believe he was gay. Why he was separated from his wife. She knew.

Guess Maggie Trudeau felt like slumming it when she had an affair with Uncle Teddy.

r96 I've always had the same opinion you do. JFK Jr. was clearly not ambitious, and he would've been a bon vivant trust-fund type if he could've gotten away with it. Of course since he was not just a Kennedy, but THE Kennedy that was impossible so he had to at least give the appearance that he worked for a living. But honestly, he really only did just enough to get by with that. No way he was ever going to run for the Senate. He didn't seem all that bright, but he did seem like a genuine, nice and "real" kind of guy. That really says a lot about JFK Jr.'s character, because so many people who also come from his station/socio-economic class in life are just vile, awful people.

BTW, don't the late 90s feel like a different universe compared to now?

Leave here R139. Leave us.

R142, best comment ever. That George magazine idea was composed in a vacuum. Insulted his ugly sister is an Ambassador to Japan, no less. The Kennedys could never make it in our day and age. Jr. would have eventually killed himself.

I do believe he was gay or he'd have a hotter wife.

R18 I believe that photo was taken when they were attending a funeral. I'm pretty sure she had just been crying. (Not to say that I don't love hearing a good CBK coke story.)

He and Carolyn would've been divorced in a couple of years, probably. She was an unstable shrew with a coke habit, this has all been documented. She also apparently questioned him about his sexuality.

Interesting to think what he would've done over the last 17 years, and where he would be now. I wonder if he would've jumped into the Internet age with a Huffington Post-type site.

R139, you do realize that Datalounge is loved by everyone? Go back to Celebitchy with the other poors. Nobody gets silenced here and there's no webmaster who has ten plus alts in an effort to get more hits from inner city losers.

R147, he totally would have a HuffPo type site.

So glad we didn't have Carolyn or lady Diana to watch age out. Buggy eyes are a no go for me. Neither are hook nosed Armenians.

I went to school with a really rich guy who was being groomed to take over his father's profitable company. He too chose a woman who abused him.

They are still married.

It's like the rich guys think the only honesty is brutality -- all else is fawning and dangerous flattery.

R147, so relieved we didn't have to sit in the bleachers to watch CBK on pap watch. Now we get an uneducated faker like Gwyneth to be our laughing stock.

It's so much fun abusing rich guys. Just so much fun! It's fun

[post redacted because linking to dailymail.co.uk clearly indicates that the poster is either a troll or an idiot (probably both, honestly.) Our advice is that you just ignore this poster but whatever you do, don't click on any link to this putrid rag.]

He smiled at me as he finished drying his hands in the men's room of a restaurant near Georgetown U in such a way that I believe he could have been gay. This was in 1981. My boyfriend was sitting at our table, and I was so dickmatized, I couldn't say a word, so nothing happened. But I've always wondered.

Of course, the smile could merely have meant, "Yeah...it's me."

He dated Madonna and his mother would have none of that guinea trash.

If he just held out he could of been an online mogul.

Yeah! Woo!. Cops shot. Woo hoo! Only good cop is a dead cop.

Because R79, no one was obsessively videoing themselves 17 years ago.

The Diana people were. r159

He dated Sarah Jessica Parker. He was gay.

I want to hear Carolyn Bessette coke stories!

There is a knarly supposed photo of Carolyn post mortem if you type "Carolyn Bessette body" into Google images.

Apparently, the force of the impact cut her in half. She was in the back of the plane so I can only imagine what John looked like.

R159 Hard to believe, isn't it, that people think we did nothing but take videos of ourselves all day long?

God, I miss the 90s!

I love the fact that he was an exhibitionist and would have been more so if he hadn't been so famous.

Supposedly liked to shower at the gym with the curtain opened and liked nude beaches.

Though someone blackmailing the Kennedy family soon put a stop to that.

Have no doubt he was at least bi but probably more gay.

Here he is one of the most handsome and desired men in the world and right after he's married his wife starts a torrid affair with a Calvin Klein model.

Clearly his heart was not in the marital bed.

Rumor has it that a woman living on Long Island has a Polaroid shot of JFK, Jr. emerging naked from swimming in the ocean.

I rode in an elevator with him in 1997 after lunching with a friend who worked in the same building. Up close, he was stunning looking.

If he truly was gay, who's had him. Why hasn't anyone come forward.

R162, Supposedly the force of the impact snapped Jr's spine backwards so that the back of his head was touching his heels.

Madonnas brother heavily implied JFK Jr was gay in a Howard Stern interview.

Perhaps out of sheer terror he might have had only a very few sexual encounters with men he might have known personally and they will not betray him they might have liked him so much.

Living with constant fear and constant enormous pressure made him seem somewhat dim but he probably had to numb so much of what he felt just to get by and not collapse.

It dulls the senses, makes you guarded and you become nothing more than a deer in the headlights.

Oh Liz, who cares about a couple of fags?

'Beloved' Aunt Lee who along with the rest of the Bouviers and Kennedys thought so highly of homos.

Jackie and Jack's son a faggot?

Not in this universe.

Somebody must have laced the Datalounge water with LSD, because there sure is some wild hallucinating going on here.

Was there anything else going on in America then? I was just a gayling then. I remember coverage of his and Carolyn's death went on for a long time. My aunt said the family was cursed.

It's no secret that his father was orally serviced for his entire adult life by prep school classmate Lem Billings, who swore until the day he died that he gave JFK a hummer in the WH just before he and Jackie left for Dallas.

Of course not one of the scores of Joe Kennedy's grandchildren was a homosexual.

You'd have to be on drugs to believe that.

I remember reading an article about the Kennedy "curse" that included Rose Kennedy's death - in her 105th year! I suppose that, according to this order, any sign of mortality is evidence of a curse.

July 2 – Benjamin Nathaniel Smith begins a 3-day killing spree targeting racial and ethnic minorities in Illinois and Indiana.

July 5 – U.S. Army Pfc. Barry Winchell is bludgeoned in his sleep at Fort Campbell, Kentucky by fellow soldiers; he dies the next day from his injuries.

July 8 – A major flash flood in Las Vegas swamps hundreds of cars, smashes mobile homes and kills 2 people.

July 10 – American soccer player Brandi Chastain scores the game winning penalty kick against China in the FIFA Women's World Cup.

July 16 – Off the coast of Martha's Vineyard, a plane crashes piloted by John F. Kennedy Jr., killing him, his wife Carolyn Bessette-Kennedy, and her sister Lauren Bessette.

Isn't the curse ascribed to the Kennedy men with Kick being the exception?

We were at Brown together - he was a year ahead of me, and we were both theater rats. JFK Jr. wanted to be an actor and appeared in several plays; he also was openly bisexual - enjoyed oral especially (just like Dad?), but that is only second-hand information as I never had the pleasure myself. When his mother got wind of what he was up to, she came to see him at Brown and insisted he: a) change his major from theater to pre-law; b) stop being in plays and hanging around with the artsy crowd; c) find himself a girl and start dating women exclusively. She also tried to convince him to give up being bisexual, but I think instead persuaded him to keep it on the very very down-low and only with a few men, so it couldn't become a liability later on. It was clear back then he was being groomed for the family business, which was politics.

Yeah, that strict, conservative homophobe, Jackie-O.

I think one of the saddest pictures I'd seen from JFK Jr's memorial(?) was a lone shot of his cousin, best friend, and best man Anthony Radziwill who was dying of cancer, sitting in a wheelchair on a dock, staring out into the sea. Probably thinking, I was supposed to go, not you! Anthony would die a month later on August 10, 1999.

My freshman roommate at Brown was JRK Jr. fuck toy. He's a Boston Brahmin and was one year behind John at Andover where the affair started. In fact he wanted to go to Yale but John insisted he follow to Brown cause John needed the constant service. My friend was discreet and I sussed out most of this and he confirmed.

Most people thought they were old friends but Amanpour figure it out too and she had a huge crush on John.

When John was doing more theatre the pressure got very intense for him to be hetero, which he didnt mind so much, and he kept secret fuck-buds all his adult life. People say he was dumb but that's not it, he was learning disabled but intellectually normal enough. He wasn't very complicated though and not deep at all.

Numerous books have been written since JFK, Jr.'s death by friends and co-workers. HIs flaws were definitely discussed in the books, but nothing regarding his bisexuality. Wouldn't at least one of the males he was sexually involved with come forward by now, either in a book, interview or a front page tabloid revelation, for $$$?

I've never heard too much about his time at Brown other than his involvement in theater and about that girlfriend that later wrote a book. R181 and r184 keep it coming!!

Prior to attending Brown, JFK, Jr. attended Phillips Academy in Andover, MA, a known hot bed for sexual activity among the male students. Presently, a couple of teachers there are facing legal action by former students claiming they were sexually assaulted many years ago.

I know this a terribly un pc thing to say but if the teachers were hot in my case it would have been totally consensual.

[quote]Dumb as a box of hair.

But WHAT a box of hair...

Kennedys will put up with many things from their kids -- drugs, murder, alcohol -- but not homosexuality

There was a model he was friends with (at Brown? IDK) named Rich. I no longer recall his last name. He's the cover model on Bad Boy by Edmund Schiddel, and I was familiar with him from the very gay late '70s-very early '80s GQ. His being on the cover of this book and his friendship with John-John led me to believe in John-John's gayness.

The teachers should probably be suing the students, R187.

He wasn't gay you pathetic old queens. In fact, John John was one of the biggest pussy hounds to ever walk god's green earth. Got it.

I used to fantasize we got married. And will be the most gorgeous couple ever. And he will become president. And he will be the most gorgeous president/leader ever in the world. And I become the most gorgeous first lady ever in the world.

And then he died.

And I became the most gorgeous widow in black ever in the world.

I came in my pants @ R63's link

"The boy was far too stupid."

He wasn't THAT stupid. And God knows, being "dumb" is no deterrent to a political career. Ronald Reagan and George Bush were really, REALLY stupid and both of them were elected President twice. As a President I think JFK Jr. would have been superior to either one of those retards.

Let's not forget that it was not acceptable to be openly anything in the 80's and 90's. Only obvious queens were openly gay. If John John did anything it was deep in the closet.

Rich Weiss was the model to whom R191 was referring.

Dumb as a box of rocks!!!

r197 people tend to forget that now, and younger people have no idea. It was such a different world back then. Even regular Joe Average-type guys who were middle-class were closeted if they could get away with it, never mind somebody in JFK Jr.'s position.

[quote]Let's not forget that it was not acceptable to be openly anything in the 80's and 90's.

You're not serious. Or you're very young.

As I said r201 only obvious queen like yourself felt comfortable being openly gay

Wouldn't you rather feel comfortable, R202, than uncomfortable?

A pussy hound?

Madonna?

Daryl Hannah?

The minute he marries his wife is being nailed by a male model?

Right.

That guy was as much into pussy as George Cukor.

r203 it wasn't that easy, unfortunately. If only it were. Being openly gay was not acceptable in many if not most careers and you could lose everything. Even as fairly recently as the 90s. For many people if the option was being closeted vs. being out on the street they had to make a choice.

I remember Samantha Jones being ditched by a "John" in one early episode of Sex and the City, but that it was OK, since it was alluded that she eventually doubled down on a "John John" "who was as US royalty as the US would ever allow it to happen" or something along the line. And then you could see his hand raising Samantha, but *only* his hand.

Where did you live, R205, Mississippi?

It was like that in many places in the US r207 not just the deep south.

He was gay liked to dress up in mamma Jackies White House au couture. He was eventually found out and the consequences were so dire; he went into that closet and never came out.

All I know is he nailed Marla Penny. Took her virginity, actually.

R206, Samantha was in a social deep freeze because she had slept with some society matron's husband. Then she worked on a charity project and met JFK Jr. and it was implied that due to his unimpeachable social status, she was no longer persona non grata. After his death, reruns used Leonardo DiCaprio instead, which always struck me as ridiculous. His name would have meant nothing in NYC society other than as a novelty.

R204, I adore you for the Cukor reference! Mwah!

R180 I think Rosemary could be on the cursed list too.

Joe Kennedy lived to see all three of his sons die.

R214 Joe Kennedy had four sons. Remember Teddy?

He also lived to know that Ted let Mary Jo die. One of the most notorious deaths in American history at the time.

After which he completely disintegrated and died.

I don't believe in karma but it hit Joe like a slow motion tidal wave with him unable to move. Literally in the last years of his life.

Lets not forget the death of Kathleen "Kick" Kennedy.

Kathleen Kennedy also died in a plane crash. Much to Rose's objection, she had been married to a Protestant, and then he died in the war. At the time of her death, she was having an affair with a married man, who also died with her in the crash. Rose did not attend the funeral and said that her daughter's death was "God pointing a finger."

Lovely woman, that Rose.

It's been said that the Kennedy curse is Joe's karmic retribution for having his oldest daughter, Rosemary, lobotomized for being a tad too wild and rebellious. He didn't even bother consulting with his wife. He just went and had it done hoping she'd be cured. Hubris. The procedure was a complete failure, rendering Rosemary mentally incapacitated.

He reminds me of Jon Hamm 's character in 30Rock. Good looking, dumb, delusional self confidence.

Will say this: the karmic ties between Jr and Carolyn, chart-wise, are some of the deepest and numerous I've seen. And I've examined a lot of charts.

Very fated, karmic pairing. The tragic end wasn't inevitable of course, but had they lived they would have still had major drama.

“Carolyn was like a wild horse,' this person continued. 'She had a trash mouth and loved being irreverent. She used to call John a fag all the time."

If it for the Kennedy curse we would of had 4 Kennedy Presidencies its by now, JFK, RFK, Ted and JFK Jr.

And don't forget Joe himself was no saint - he had a years-long affair with Gloria Swanson back in the 1920s, while Rose stayed home and raised a dozen little brats all by herself.

Carolyn sounds like a mess in that story. I'm also curious about the political plans that were mentioned, I always assumed he wasnt' interested in a political office.

There is a strong conspiracy out there that Rosemary was possibly being molested by Joe, and that is why he arranged her lobotomy.

Catholics are just irredeemably tacky - I don't care how much money they have.

I think you mean Irish Catholics, breeding like Muslims on social assistance in a foreign country.

But Joe earned his own money the 'old-fashioned' way.

No, all Catholics, R228. They just can't help themselves.

Apparently the real problem with Rosemary was that she had been sexually awakened and she would go out wandering the roads around their house looking for strange men to tarry with for a time. This was completely unacceptable to the family and something had to be done to curtail her activities. Joe senior took it up on himself to "fix" her with very tragic results. She was known to be very affable and "mildly retarded" but the operation killed all that and left her seriously disabled for the rest of her life. She was put away in a permanent rest home and had very few visitors over the course of her extremely long life. She was the family "shame."

I wish we knew more about that handsome devil Joe Kennedy Jr. He was more handsome than the rest of the boys and was being groomed by Daddy to be the President. JFK happened to be the next in line when Joe Jr. also went down in flames during the war. What could have been.

I served on a Grand Jury when JFK Jr was an ADA in NYC. He was even more handsome in real life than in pictures but, compared to the other ADA's who presented, he was not the sharpest tool in the shed. And I think he failed the NYC Bar three times.

R191 I believe his friend at Brown was Richard Wiese.

Yes, yes, yes, R232. This is a more recent pic.

I think he was at least finger banged by his Secret Service guard when he was a teen.

JFK Jr was raised and controlled by two very strong woman his mum and his sister. So he married a controlling bitch who belittled him, refused sex and questioned his masculinity. Is there any wonder he preferred to hang with his posse of good looking close long time buddies?

"He dated Madonna."

EVERYBODY "dated" Madonna. I have no idea why he would have wanted to have anything to do with that trashy bitch. Maybe he thought she'd be spectacular in bed (I don't think she is). He must have been slumming. I guess he wanted the experience of fucking somebody like her. I think it probably wasn't nearly the earth shattering experience he thought it would be.

Makes you wonder if it was really a murder-suicide. I mean if his cousin and best friend Anthony was dying of cancer....

I don't know. I'd like to learn John was gay as he was HAF but I doubt it. He and his wife fought quite publicly in the streets of NYC. What gay or bi man acts in such a manner over a woman? I don't see it.

[quote]What gay or bi man acts in such a manner over a woman? I don't see it.

Yeah -- they don't care since they have no real emotional link with a woman

Kennedy worship and Clinton worship come from the same disturbing tendency of Americans that Bush worship comes from. There really is a bizarre tendency in Americans to want to recreate royalty in this country.

Are we sure Carolyn was not MTF?

[quote]What gay or bi man acts in such a manner over a woman?

One who's trying to "present" heterosexuality to the world, and has trapped a woman who loves him more than he loves her. There is no more wounded creature than the woman in such a situation, and to live is to fight, often at the top of her lungs.

I don't think he was gay. I know a lot of people would love it if he was, but there was never any proof he was. He sure had odd taste in women, though.

Carolyn Bessette really had him by the balls. After one of their screaming matches, he sat down on the curb, put his head in his arms and cried. Yes, cried. There's a picture of her looking down on him in pity, while he sobs into his arms. There's another picture of them making up immediately after; she has him in her arms and appears to be soothing him. What a fucked up relationship!

If you've ever been with someone who was fond of cocaine, you know how fucking crazy things can get.

BTW, if Jackie were still alive her 87th birthday would be next week.

87 year old Jackie -- frail or feisty?

Audrey Hepburn and Princess Grace would also be turning 87 this year.

JFK Jr was definitely bisexual.

Okay for an opening statement, R248. Going to introduce any evidence?

Does anyone know if his wife was pregnant at the time of the accident?

r250 They're relationship was on the rocks and they weren't living together and she didn't want kids so no she wasn't pregnant

His last known interview in which he lied about his injured foot. It wasn't from playing sports, it was a hang gliding accident.

People are apparently still fascinated with him. He's on the cover of People magazine, AGAIN, and he's been dead for seventeen years. What can be said about him that hasn't been said before? What speculate about his stormy marriage to Carolyn Bessette and the possibility that he would someday run for office? He's DEAD. Let him rest in peace.

People are just really obsessed with him. It's that what could of been factor that people love.

They never found his head, ya know.

If Jackie had lived, she never would have allowed John to marry Carolyn. She would have seen right through her.

If Jackie had lived, he never would've taken flying lessons.

Bump.

Jet Blue used to call its self-contained terminal at JFK "JFK Jr." That stopped pretty abruptly.

Think had he lived JFK, Jr. eventually would have run for something, maybe here in NYC. He would have made a great mayor, especially as city is transitioning in to a liberal, democratic progressive place.

Think Jackie O likely did a number on her son about running for political office (espicially anything national), or even accepting an appointment. Going over and over again about his father and uncle....

But then again who knows... JFK, Jr. apparently wasn't the brightest bulb in box (didn't he take the NYS bar something like five or more times before finally passing?), but then again some people don't come into their own until later in life.

One thing that would have kept JFK, Jr. from running for national or even high level local office possibly would have been the dirt between his wife and model Michael Bergin. Politics is a nasty business and you just know someone would dredge all that up.

Remember walking towards subway from my apartment and stopped at corner news stand to pick up NYT. Glancing over my shoulder at the headline an older woman shook her head and muttered something about "sins of the father....".