Kitty Carlisle vs Arlene Francis

Arlene looks like Carole King in that picture.

They were both classy NYC broads but Arlene was definitely wittier and bawdier.

Look at them. A pair of sluts.

Arlene. Hands down. It is amazing all she achieved when women were not encouraged to achieve anything.

Kitty married very, very well.

I loved them both, and as R2 said, Arlene was more risqué. Kitty was IMO a bit more stylish in her choice of clothes and jewelry. Both women were married to prominent men, yet Kitty and Arlene shone in their own right.

Both were married to gay men.

Were they bumping pussies ?

Here Kitty Kitty Kitty

Kitty never murdered anyone.

Arlene was a closet Armenian. Kitty was prettier, classier and considered more socially important than Arlene was. Also, Moss Hart dead is still more impressive than Martin Gabel alive.

I never murdered anyone. The fucking maid was responsible and I gallantly took the blame.

And that nasty car accident took place during a storm, so it was an act of God.

I hear ya 'lene.

They were on a mockup "To Tell the Truth" on the Howard Stern show. They had to guess the secret of a beauty pageant winner. Robin guessed she was a man. She was actually a lesbian. When it was revealed, Arlene said "she almost got it. She thought she was a man."

How heavy are the men's balls?

Kitty, under dressed

Jackie and Kitty

Arlene always found a way to compliment others, and to make them feel just a little bit better. That's the mark of a good person. Kitty managed to talk about herself.

[quote]Kitty managed to talk about herself.

Kitty was an operatic soprano. 'Nuff said.

R9 - Kitty DID murder someone. A clay pot of geraniums tumbled off her penthouse terrace and killed a pedestrian.

Arlene and Kitty then, Bethenny and Ramona now. My,how the social scene has changed.

I never really "got" either of them when I was a little kid watching What's My Line? or To Tell the Truth.

But watching reruns now, I'm totally enraptured by Arlene. She is so charming and engaging, so generous in her comments about her colleagues, and just so damn funny and sharp! She really was perfect for the days of live unscripted TV. She could ad lib better than anyone.

If anyone wants to bother to take the time to find a short clip compilation of her best moments on WML on youtube, it's worth it. I'd post it myself, but always seem to fail when linking here.

Kitty always seemed a little too grand and humorless to me as a kid. I came to appreciate her more in her final interviews and gracious appearances on TV in her last years.

I was going to give the edge to Kitty just for being in "Now, Voyager" with Bette Davis and then thought I had better double check to make sure it was her.

As most of you know, it was not Kitty in the movie, but another well known member on those early TV panel shows, Ilka Chase. Ilka was in the same mold as Kitty and Arlene. She was noted for her very pleasing personality and witty answers. She had a great voice too.

For R22.

Kitty Carlisle Hart, late in life, was the chairperson for the New York State Council on the Arts. And she milked that gig for all it was worth. She was deeply involved in handing out arts grants all over the state of New York. Every arts-related non-profit organization made it a top priority to suck that woman's ass relentlessly. And she revelled in it.

I always felt confident that she knew very well that it was all about the grant money, but she accepted all the attention. She made all those executive directors and development people dance for her amusement.

Kitty Kitty Kitty Carlisle!

When Arlene had a daily show on WOR Radio, in a discussion of cotillions at The Plaza, she said "If I haven't come out by now, I never will." And we know she wasn't referring to a society event.

R20, the flower pot incident was at Arlene's Ritz Tower apartment from a 58th Street window the maid was cleaning.

It wasn't a flower pot, it was a small iron bar bell, used for exercising.

Dumbbells.

Arlene lived in an eighth-floor apartment at the Ritz Tower at the corner of Park Avenue and 57th Street. Eight-pound weightlifting dumbbells were used to prop open a screen window of the apartment where an air conditioning unit had been removed.

While Arlene was in Connecticut peforming in a play, a maid accidentally knocked a dumbbell out the window. It struck a luckless pedestrian on the street below and killed him! The victim, Alvin M. Rodecker, a financier from Detroit, was visiting New York City with his wife to celebrate his 60th birthday. (Rodecker's wife noted the last thing her husband said was what a wonderful time he was having.) In 1962 Francis paid Rodecker's estate $175,000 in an out-of-court settlement. The Ritz Tower paid $10,000.

Ilka Chase originated the role of Sylvia Fowler on Broadway in 1936 in The Women, the role eventually played by Roz Russell in the film.

And, coincidentally, Arlene Francis appeared in the ensemble of the Broadway cast, playing several roles, including Princess Tamara, who appears in the fashion show sequence.

Well that's just ironic. Through urban legend, by the time it got to my ears, it was Kitty, and it was a flowerpot, not dumbbells. And I heard this more than once!

Thank you, r24! I love you.

Once Kitty really threw shade at Peggy Cass on TTTT. They had an executive from "Cracker Jack" on (real celebs, huh) and Peggy asked why they didn't just sell the peanuts alone because she'd buy them. The contestant (the real one) said that they tried that but the peanuts didn't taste the same without the popcorn. When casting her ballot, Kitty said "whoever wants the peanuts alone is just greedy."

Arlene by a mile. I started watching WML on YouTube about two years ago. I love Arlene. I love that there was a time when people tuned into a show like that. I love how shocking such little things seemed then. Like the girdle guy. The audience tittered like a bunch of japanese school girls. I also love Arlene for the way she flirted with ANY attractive male they had on. Especially a very young Frank Gifford. "halfback, fullback, I don't care what you call you have a beautiful back".

[quote]They had an executive from "Cracker Jack" on (real celebs, huh)

To Tell the Truth wasn't set up to feature celebrity guests on a normal basis. The whole point was that the panel would quiz three ordinary-looking people face-to-face and guess which one was the real person all three were pretending to be.

Buzzr was showing a To Tell the Truth marathon. I really, really like the show except for one glaring fault. The question round is way to short. A very young Johnny Carson was a regular panelist and he was quite cute.

[quote]Arlene by a mile

In all categories, R35? I think Kitty may have a slight edge in looks.

Arlene was was the host of a morning talk show on NBC called "Home," which ran from 1954-1957. It was sort of like an add-on to "Today," like what we have now with the third and fourth hours.

Arlene and Jackie

I remember a TTTT which featured a "Who is the real Diana Ross?" which must have aired at the very beginning of The Supremes success. I can't remember how many of the panel guessed the real Diana. But as a young gayling, I knew!

What a lovely DL thread for a serene July 4th weekend.

Thank you, OP!

Yes, thank you OP. Lovely!

Arlene never had much success as an actress. I think she made an early appearance as a victim in some 1930s horror flick called Murders in the Rue Morgue, and she also never had much success on Broadway, appearing in flop after flop.

But in 1960 when Billy Wilder was looking for an actress to play Jimmy Cagney's wife in One, Two, Three, he told his casting directors to find him an Arlene Francis type, a sassy attractive middle-aged woman who could sock one liners right back at Cagney. Eventually, someone had the bright idea to cast Arlene. She subsequently co-starred in Doris Day and James Garner's The Thrill of It All, famously playing Edward Andrews' wife, a woman in her late 50s giving birth in a taxi cab.

I always felt that Mama Cass was more personable than Peggy Cass.

After Moss Hart died, Kitty needed to earn a living - you can't live off the royalties from "You Can't Take It With You" alone - she had 2 children to support. As an operatically-trained singer, she made her debut at the Met in a "trouser" role, as Prince Orlofsky in Die Fledermaus - and played the role off and on for years afterward. She said it was the "best part I ever had".

The chorus girls at the Met thought she took the role WAY too seriously.

I think for a lot of us who grew up only seeing those 2 ladies on their game shows and oblivious to their other earlier and even current credits, always thought of them as "just famous for being famous."

But that was true of so many TV celebrities in the 1950s and early 60s. TV was filled with charming raconteurs (raconteusses?) who could interestingly chat about anything. They didn't have to be there to sell their latest project.

Kitty, of course. Dressed to the nines, she entered the set of "To Tell The Truth" looking like she was having an audience with the queen of England. So grand.

Arlene tried but couldn't rise to Kitty's grandeur.

[quote] Arlene never had much success as an actress.

You mean, in the legitimate theatre?

[quote]Arlene never had much success as an actress.

Arlene was the queen of summer stock. She never had much luck on Broadway, but she was a fixture on the citronella circuit.

[quote]After Moss Hart died, Kitty needed to earn a living - you can't live off the royalties from "You Can't Take It With You" alone

Moss Hart directed My Fair Lady and Camelot and collected director's royalties on both. He left Kitty a wealthy widow. She worked because she wanted to.

Did Moss Hart or his estate receive royalties on productions of MFL beyond Broadway and all companies based on the Broadway production?

I'm not so sure directors would have gotten that kind of deal back in the day. Or was Moss the librettist on MFL? I'm really spacing here!

Broadway directors back then received royalties on the original production, including any touring version in which they were billed as the director. My Fair Lady minted money, and in any case, Moss Hart had earned a large fortune even before that on his writing alone.

Kitty earned money from everything Moss did, including the movie versions of his plays. She lived in an apartment that ultimately sold for $12,000,000.00 after her death. She left around $30,000,000 plus ongoing royalties to her children. Plus, Moss bought her incredible jewelry which she wore right up to the end of her life. She once said if your jewelry was important enough nobody looked at your wrinkles!

Moss and Kitty lived in a large penthouse in Carnegie Hill. After his death, Kitty moved south to Lenox Hill into a smaller, but equally grand apartment known as "The Verona". Although considered a second tier building, she would never have been accepted into the building unless was very, very rich. So, no Kitty did not need to work...she enjoyed it.

I saw Arlene in Dinner at Eight in 1966 at the Alvin. She played Carlotta Vance, the Marie Dressler role. What a cast! June Havoc, Pamela Tiffin, Darren McGavin, Walter Pigeon and Blanche "Gypsy Girl" Yurka. And in 1993, I sat behind Kitty at a performance of "Putting It Together" at City Center's Stage I starring Julie Andrews. It was the night of a major snow storm, but the show went on. In removing my very long scarf, I hit Kitty on the top of her lacquered do. She patted her head as she turned around abruptly and I said "Sorry". Kitty said to young woman sitting next to her, who had no clue who she was, "We are like marvelous survivors of a shipwreck coming out on a night like tonight." And, caught Kitty's autobiographical revue at the Morgan Library in the mid-80's when she was already forgetting lyrics and had to be cued by her accompanist. Oh, those stories about dating George Gershwin. Kitty obviously liked hairy, closeted Jewish guys.

Arlene Francis murdered at least 2 people (that we know of so far). She was a bonafide serial killer.

[quote]I hit Kitty on the top of her lacquered do.

Hilarious!

It always seemed to me that Arlene could have done so much better than Martin Gabel. But perhaps he was a very intelligent and kind man.

10:20 Kitty trying to warble out some opera.

not very great singing, but tons of style and presence.

Isn't D. Vreeland quoted in the Andy Warhol Diaries as saying Kitty had to work like a nigger because Moss didn't leave her very much?

The main thing about Kitty is that, in her prime, she was a really wonderful singer, with elegant phrasing and a real voice. She's terrific in that old Decca set of The Desert Song, where she delivers the cue-in dialogue with such aplomb that you forget how corny it is.

I knew her at the end of her life, and, yes, she was grand, but also very lovable. And she had a great recipe for getting away from troublesome people at parties (which she needed, because she was always up for a sociable). When someone was getting aggressive, she would simply cry, "Darling, it's too divine!" and quickly move out of range.

The two gals on WML panel in 1965, so you can do a side by side comparison. Kitty was sitting in for Dorothy Kilgallen, who died a few days before. They all say a few words about Dorothy in the last few minutes of the clip.

Kitty tried to hard and seemed like she had a brick up her ass and would need a Silkwood shower if she ever had to have anything to do with the common people. Arlene had wide appeal without even trying. I could picture going to Coney Island and having a hotdog with Arlene then the next night going to a five star French restaurant with her. Kitty would just make me nervous and feel so less than.

Compare: Kitty Carlisle vs. Pussy Galore.

[Quote] I could picture going to Coney Island and having a hotdog with Arlene then the next night going to a five star French restaurant with her

Hear, hear! That's also one of the reasons why I fell in love with Arlene. Although she knew how to play the sophisticate role (I love how she spoke English), she didn't take it nearly as seriously as most other sophisticates did. This showed in how she treated the guests on "What's My Line." She didn't fake being charmed by them, she truly [italic]was[/italic]!

Kitty would probably give common people about 15 minutes of her time, max. Arlene, on the other hand, would probably have lunch with them, throw back a couple of stiff drinks, then go to one of their house parties or cookouts the following weekend for more of the same!

Kitty co-starred in the Marx Brothers classic A Night at the Opera.

But I liked Arlene better. She had the mixture of urbane sophistication and everyday common sense that you don't see anymore.

In fact, you don't see sophistication anymore because the world has gotten so cynical.

Anyone that says Arlene wasn't as fashionable as Kitty cannot have watched a lot of WML and TTTT. I'm not saying Arlene was more fashionable, just equally so and perhaps with a more forward contemporary style.

Arlene's dresses were always gorgeous, from knee to floor length, and she had the advantage of swooping in with them as she was introduced through many of the years of WML. Kitty had to be satisfied by only being seen from the bosom upwards, seated permanently at the panel. She often used that to her advantage wearing feathery low-cut necklines.

Arlene did occasionally make a faux-pas, mostly with odd headpieces and tiaras, of all things. Though only seen in b&w, her hair seemed to go through every color imaginable, lightening considerably as she aged, from tight curls in the 1950s to teased high in the 1960s. Kitty's hair, OTOH, never changed. She remained frozen in her classic dark brunette bob through many decades, right up until her death.

What are we, chopped liver?

I have to say I miss both of the old broads. They really don't make 'em like that anymore.

Kitty's hair never changed, R68? You mean you can't see the difference between this....

And this? There are three strands of hair that were changed.

Good research r71, but I meant it never changed from her TTTT days until her death. Is that 50-60 years, give or take a few?

I know what you meant, R73, I was showing it was true for even LONGER. More like 80 years it never changed.

Someone on another thread posted that he helped cater a dinner at Kitty's NYC apartment in her final years and it was literally crumbling in places.

Kitty has been reincarnated into Sonja Morgan.

Some of the best WML mystery guests were the family members of panelists. Arelene's son Peter Gabel was on several including one when his "line" was working as a ticket taker at the New York World's Fair. She teased him for having lied to her about where he was going that evening. (He's now a professor - probably retired - at Berkley, some ex-hippie.)

Arlene was more of a ground breaker, one of the very few female hosts on television in the 1950's.

Apparently she suffered from Alzheimer's in her later years so it was a sad ending to her more vibrant years.

Kitty was a touch of old-time glamour in the 60's. But you knew she was tough as nails underneath the chiffon, which is about the most "Mary!" thing I've written on DL.

"Are you in Show business?"

[quote] ...Kitty's NYC apartment in her final years and it was literally crumbling in places.

That's not uncommon in New York apartments. A lot of elderly people don't bother to make sure their homes are well-maintained.

You can be sure that Kitty Carlisle rarely, if ever, entered her kitchen.

I have a funny Kitty story. Or maybe not so funny; but it's true.

Quite some years ago, there was a revival of an old hit, and a dear friend of Kitty's was tangentially (but importantly) involved in the production. Kitty and this other woman spoke every day because of business matters and also because they were coevals and good friends.

Now, from the other woman's reports on how the revival was coming along, Kitty started to pick up...a vibe, shall we say. The other woman seemed very intimate with the revival's star, a known lesbian. Finally, one day, Kitty asked her, "_______, are you and _________ having an affair.

The other woman, who had been straight and married and a mother all her life, replied, "Yes."

Kitty absorbed this for two beats, then brightly changed the subject to I don't know what,

And never brought it up again.

Is Arlene any relation to Elyes Gabel?

See R81 if that story had been told to Arlene her eyes would have widened and she would have said "Let me smell your fingers!"

I saw Kitty Carlisle at the Kennedy Center when she was in her 90s, with Carol Channing and Debbie Reynolds. being interviewed on stage by Dick Cavett.. At one point Kitty's microphone fell off her and fell to the floor. Kitty rose up from her chair in her high high heels, then proceeded to bend over and pick up the microphone herself. The entire audience audibly GASPED in astonishment that she could do this at her age without toppling over.

That night was magic and I'll never forget it. All 3 of those women were sublime, and so was Arlene Francis.

[quote]Kitty asked her, "_______, are you and _________ having an affair.

R81, you left the best parts out. Why would you not want to name either party? It's not shameful to be a lesbian, it's 2016.

Kitty was photographed by Carl Van Vechten for Christ sake!

Is that you between Kitty and Carol, R84?

R81 When Moss Hart proposed to Kitty, she bluntly asked him, "Are you a homosexual?" He said he wasn't and she accepted his proposal. I think her question to the woman about having an affair with another woman was curiosity, nothing more. Like being asked if you take sugar in your coffee, once the question has been answered there isn't much else to say on the subject.

Both Kitty and Arlene were around gays and lesbians most of their lives and had many friends who were homosexual. They weren't bothered by it and would have taken no less or more interest in their love/sex lives than they would of their heterosexual friends.

[47] Speaking of raconteusses, remember Merv Griffin's shows with Virginia Graham, Pamela Mason, and DL fave Zsa Zsa Gabor? Loved those cat fights!

I'm not in that picture, R87.

It isn't shocking to be a lesbian, no. But it is a shock to hear from someone you have known (as a hetero) for decades that, all of a sudden, she's having a lesbian affair--at that with an actress who was, at that point, in something like her eighties. It's unexpected.

I didn't mention the other woman's name because she is still alive and I'm protecting her privacy. The actress is dead, but to name her would give the whole story away.

I say this in amazement and as a compliment. Could there be a gayer thread? Ever?

Eva la Galienne!

I love the idea that she had tens of millions in the bank but parts of her apartment were crumbling. Such strange creatures we.

You already gave enough clues, R84. Kitty was involved with revival of "On Your Toes" in 2003. The star was Leslie Caron.

It was not Leslie Caron. And it was the other woman (whom I haven't named) who had the affair, not Kitty.

Arlene was a semi-permanent replacement for Jack Paar on "The Tonight Show."

Polly Bergen was an original panelist on TTT before her acting and singing career took off. She was eventually replaced by Peggy Cass.

I remember Polly staging a mock walk out by the women on the show over a silly slight. Kitty did not know what to do, but follow Polly Bergen off-stage. Kitty was good, but her wit was not as well tuned as Arlene's and Polly's.

So Polly Bergen was the revival star?

I would have preferred Leslie Caron. Still quite attractive and in her 80s. Magnificent really.

Remember reading in TV Guide in the 60s how Kitty would arrive for a week's worth of tapings of TTTT with above-the-waist accessories--scarves and pins. Obviously she was seen only from the waist up behind the panelists' table.

And, Arlene was famous for the quote: "Life's the best party I've ever been invited to." How true if you're not a Syrian.

Who brought Polly Bergen into this? The only revival I recall her in was the Roundabout Follies, and the show I spoke of was way, way back.

I actually didn't mean to create a guessing game. That reminds me of those insufferable threads about Herbert Ross' casting director with the anecdotes that read like a rebus, with "Then Star Wars II remake's cousin dated (4-6^+pi) till the husband of Spanish divorcee with a twist surprised them during a screening of Oscar-winning but never nominated hatful of reign" stuff.

I'm not being coy. I'm simply protecting somebody's privacy. Not that she'll ever happen upon our beloved dataLounge. She doesn't have a computer, and had to summon the building staff to turn on her TV to watch Downton Abbey.

PS: I meant New York revival. Of course Bergen was in the Pasadena Do I Hear a Waltz?. The CD of that production has become so rare that the cheapest used copy on Amazon is nearly $100. I just looked.

Polly Bergen was a late in life Lesbian after her final husband, a sleazeball named Jeff Endervelt went through all her money, forcing her to sell her big apartment at 791 Park Avenue,

That's as good a reason as any to go lesbian.

But it sounds as though Kitty's friend was not an actress in the revival. The friend was "tangentially but importantly" involved in the revival.

Could the revival have been the 1976 The Royal Family starring known 80-something lesbian Eva LeGallienne and the other lady might be costume designer Ann Roth, who was long-married with a daughter? And still with us (and in her 80s now).

Yes, it was The Royal Family, but no, it was not Ann Roth.

Nice work, R103!

I guessed Eva La Galienne first! Not r103

Back in the late 1980s- 1990s, there were rumors that Kitty had taken to living a nudist lifestyle at home, and that there was more than one delivery boy in NY who got an eyeful when they delivered the groceries.

And no, this is not a joke.

[quote]I say this in amazement and as a compliment. Could there be a gayer thread? Ever?

I shall make it gayer by proposing that somewhere over the rainbow, Arlene and Kitty are starring in a celestial revival of Follies, with Kitty as Phyllis and Arlene as Sally.

Let me put it another way. Initially Polly Bergen's wit and charm were essential to the success of TTTT. Any number of people would have done as well as Kitty.

So now the puzzle is solved:

Kitty asked her, "__Ann_____, are you and ___Eva______ having an affair?"

After graduating from college, Arlene's son, Peter, and Bennett Cerf's son, Christopher, became roommates in New York. Chris is married with kids and head of New Jersey's Department of Education. Peter is married, lives in California. When Arlene developed dementia, he moved her from New York to his home in San Francisco, where several years later she died in a nursing home.

At least, it seems that Arlene's dementia did not set in until she was in her 80s.

How in the world did Arlene have a heterosexual son?

[quote] Of course Bergen was in the Pasadena Do I Hear a Waltz?.

She was? I saw that production and she wasn't in it.

Maybe in the audience.

You're right, R114. I confused Polly Bergen with Carol Lawrence.

And, no, the mystery is not solved. It was not Ann Roth.

r115, please tell me Rosemary Harris and Eva LeGallienne weren't hooking up during The Royal Family!

The only other woman of note (I mean, that DL would care about) on the revival's IBDB page, onstage or off, was Mary Louise Wilson who wasn't married or with child then.

I didn't say the woman having the affair with Le Gallienne was an actress in the show. I said only that she was involved at some remove. That means she could be anyone, really. There are a lot of people behind the scenes in various ways.

Yes, I hear you, r117.

I said "onstage or off."

KITTY, because I love elegant Jewish Ladies.

Kitty was a privileged woman all of her life, but she was earthy and fun AND gay friendly. Staunch Democrat too. I saw her speak in NYC at a Clinton rally five days before the 1992 election.

We love how some of you are so determined to discover who that lesbian couple was. You make us feel honored and proud!

Indeed! That's why we love WML. Each episode is like solving 3 mimi-mysteries!

Another Kitty story:

A mutual friend was coming round to my building with Kitty to take us out to dinner at Pescatore, which is a short walk down Second Avenue from my address.

I always like to wait downstairs on the street when expecting company, but this time I was standing in the lobby with the doorman. They arrive: Kitty absolutely grand, on her cane, and dressed as a diva must be. (I forgot this: the friend warned me not to mention "the biography.") Dinner. They go. As I returned to my building, the doorman clearly was impressed by Kitty's grandezza and wanted to know who she was.

The name meant nothing, so I tried defining her. Moss hart's wife. NY Council on the Arts, or whatever it was. TV game show. Nothing took.

Finally, I said, "She's the girl in the Marx Brothers movie A Night at the Opera."

THEN he got it. "Wow," he said. "She's famous."

That doorman was hitting on you, r122. You know what they are like!

r122, do you mean you weren't to mention that bio that came out about Moss being gay as dinner conversation? I would hope not!

The wives are always the last to know!

Arlene would have pinned her under three minutes. More likely a sleeper hold in under two.

One wonders how ladies with such busy public schedules as Arlene and Kitty ever had time for plastic surgery. But whatever they had done seemed to be rather minor and sensible. They always looked like their gracious and elegant selves.

They had to work at a certain level of classy, but not showy elegance. Kitty was Jewish and Francis was Armenian. They grew-up in a time when they would have been unwelcome in certain neighborhoods, clubs, buildings in NYC, etc. The restrictions would have been written into the co-op rules, property covenants, etc. Carlisle was German Jewish which would have gotten her into some of the better homes and parties, but she would have faced the same restrictions and the shetlkeit. Basically, they were still a rung down the scale from even the lace curtain Irish. Carlisle was very concerned with racial issues which suggests she also was very conscious of all the exclusions she faced.

Mystery solved: the woman involved with Eva LeGallienne during the run of "The Royal Family" was Anne Kaufman Schneider, daughter of George S. Kaufman. As executor of her father's estate, Anne would have been involved (at a remove) in the production (since her father wrote it with Edna Ferber) AND she and Kitty were friends who spoke every day since together they controlled the rights to all those Kaufman and Hart plays. And this is no secret, by the way R84/R99 - in Helen Sheehy's great bio of Miss LeG, the affair is discussed in detail. Anne was married with children but took up with Miss LeG for quite a while during and after the run of the play, after which Anne returned to her husband.

I met both Kitty and Anne at a reading of "You Can't Take It With You" done by an all-Asian troupe in the 90s ("Flower Drum Song" star Pat Suzuki played the Russian countess and then-current Broadway "King & I" star Lou Diamond Phillips played the leading man) and had to ask them - how did the collaboration work? Did Kaufman write the plot while Hart wrote the actual lines, or what? And Kitty said [and this is a direct quote, I will never forget it]:

"Well, we don't know. Moss never rolled over in the middle of the night and said to me 'I wrote that line while George plotted the next scene."

I was so surprised that Kitty and Moss shared a bed!

R117 and R118 have turned this thread into an episode of To Tell the Truth. That's a true homage.

Thanks, R129.

[quote]They had to work at a certain level of classy, but not showy elegance. Kitty was Jewish and Francis was Armenian. They grew-up in a time when they would have been unwelcome in certain neighborhoods, clubs, buildings in NYC, etc. The restrictions would have been written into the co-op rules, property covenants, etc. Carlisle was German Jewish which would have gotten her into some of the better homes and parties, but she would have faced the same restrictions and the shetlkeit. Basically, they were still a rung down the scale from even the lace curtain Irish. Carlisle was very concerned with racial issues which suggests she also was very conscious of all the exclusions she faced.

Kitty's mother, Hortense Conn, was obsessed with breaking into WASP society and encouraged Kitty to "pass." A (probably archetypal) story goes that a cabbie was taking Kitty and Hortense somewhere; Kitty got dropped off first and the cabbie asked Hortense if it was true that Kitty was Jewish. Hortense fired back, "She may be, but I'M not."

Kitty did once have occasion to read some anti-Semites for filth:

[quote]“I went to a dinner party — and in those days, everybody dressed up for dinner parties,” she recalled. “And they were talking about the Jews in a way that was just awful. It was unbearable. And I got up in the middle of dinner, and I said, ‘I am Jewish, and I won’t sit here and listen to this kind of talk for another five minutes.’ And I left. The bravest thing I ever did.”

I've read the Le Gallienne bio, and it is indeed excellent.

I'd totally forgotten that Anne's affair with Le G was in there. I wonder how Sheehy found out. Maybe Anne simply told her.

On the other hand, I once told Anne that Kaufman and Hart's very funny but much less known play George Washington Slept Here could be revived with a gay instead of straight couple. You wouldn't even have to change the lines (except for a few pronouns). Anne shuddered at the thought. But that might have been only because her father (to whom she is madly loyal) was so homophobic. Anne told me George S. wouldn't shake hands with Hassard Short because of where Short's hands might have been. Some people--even in show biz--thought that way in the old days.

R132, that taxi story was probably apocryphal, not archetypical...

^ Fuckin' autocorrect ...

Bing Crosby and Kitty Carlise in "Here Is My Heart" (1934).

Carlise is rather homely...she looks like Olive Oil....but the voice is lovely.

Although he became insufferable as he got older, Bing Crosby is quite sexy here... so beautifully handsome.

This scene is just lovely.

Love the little "gang sign" that Arlene gives in the OP photo. Very fashion forward.

"But whatever they had done seemed to be rather minor..."

BIGGEST laugh I'll have this month.

Kitty did seem to get better looking with age, [r136], one of the lucky few. She was probably at her most attractive in the 40's and 50's. She said Bing Crosby was like a blank personality, a cipher to her and she never did strike up any kind of rapport with him, but he is attractive in that clip.

My grandmother, who was not a jewess but was half black, looked very much like the dark haired lady here. Kitty? I bet she was racist. Will Smith said she was.

Jewess ??? Hahahahahahaha. Are you stuck in some time warp in Decatur, Georgia?

I was privileged enough to meet Kitty Carlisle Hart (who oddly only became "Hart" after her husband died) very late in her life and she was pretty much what she was on-screen -- very grand, very genteel, and a pleasant woman. But Arlene Francis was SMART. You could tell. Martin Gabel was not married to her for her to be a trophy wife. She was much more earthy and funny and one suspects she was a lot more open in the sack.

Another thing I love about Arlene is she could take a zinger as well as dish one out. I love the part of the best of Arlene clip when she asks the guy "Why wouldn't I wear it?" Martin zings back: "because it costs less than $3000.00" The way she stood up and looked at him is hysterical.

R143 As a kid that's exactly what I thought a marriage should look like. In tuxedoes and evening gowns.

"But Arlene Francis was SMART. "

Not so smart on Password. Kitty was smart on password as well as To Tell the Truth.

[quote] Anne told me George S. wouldn't shake hands with Hassard Short because of where Short's hands might have been. Some people--even in show biz--thought that way in the old days.

And yet George S. collaborated for years with homosexual Moss Hart. Did George not know?

Moss' book for "Lady in the Dark" was a thinly veiled version of his own struggles with psychoanalysis - he went to the shrink to "cure" himself of homosexuality. He and Cole Porter took an around-the-world cruise to write "Jubilee" - you can only imagine the fun they had!

Homophobes often have a way of "not noticing" that you're gay if they need something from you. The way, for instance, far-right-wing outfits employed that long-dead guy (Terry something, I think) who was gay, to head their something or other department. Larry Kramer ran into him in a gay bar and threw a drink in his face.

Then, too, Moss Hart "passed" as straight among heteros. It was only gays who knew what he liked. Remember, Hart wanted to be straight badly enough to marry and sire kids, despite being driven crazy by the beautiful men in his shows.

This nis neither here nor there, but the Harts' daughter, Catherine, looks like her mother's twin.

Dr. Catherine Hart is my g.p. - I love her. We dish about her mother every time I visit. She has great stories and inherited almost all her mother's jewelry!

Arlene (making her final public appearance) and Kitty on Howard Stern's What's my Secret? from 1991.

Yes Arlene was fine, but Kitty was sharper.

r146, the play, " Jubilee" was partially financed by MGM, and was a flop. MGM used Porter's, "Begin the Beguine" to great success in, "Broadway Melody of 1940." Artie Shaw bitterly detested the song after a few years, and complained about having to play it every time he and his band performed.

So I guess MGM never made a film of Jubilee?

Alexandra Silber looks just like young Kitty.

Thanks, R139, I was looking for that clip.

Not that it matters much, but Kitty Carlisle replaced Dina Merrill in the role of "Peggy Porterfield" in the Broadway production of ON YOUR TOES. Natalia Makarova played the leading role of "Vera Baronova." That role was taken over by Valentina Kozlova, late in the run.

Leslie Caron led the National Touring Company of ON YOUR TOES, with "Peggy Porterfield" played by Frances Bergen. Caron was injured during rehearsal and never played more than a handful of performance. Makarova opened the show while Caron recuperated and played a limited schedule. But Makarova could not stay with the show. Without a big name star that could actually play the show, venues cancelled and the show closed in about five weeks. All this happened while the Broadway production was still running.

But, yeah. Le Gallienne and Anne Kaufman Schneider were widely known to be "together."

I was always fascinated by Kitty's hair. I swear it didn't move in the fifty years I saw that woman either on TV or in print interviews.

For many of us oldies here, these women were like surrogate mothers to us. We certainly learned more about social mores from them than our mothers.

Kitty Carlisle was always a good sport - she did her voice with the "head of Kitty Carlisle" in a Simpson's episode of Match Game 2020.

The Howard Stern clip is quite amusing. Did the two ladies not realize what they were getting themselves into by agreeing to appear?

One can see that Arlene had already been affected by the onset of Dementia which is quite sad. The old Arlene would have been quite animated in such a situation one would imagine. But Kitty really delivered per usual.

Excuse me, it was Match Game 2034:

R159 The behind the scenes story of that appearance of those two ladies on Howard Stern is rather crazy.

There was a set of conjoined twins that were supposed to be in the segment. It was two women joined at the head. The panel was to wear masks to cover their eyes and ask their questions. You'll notice Robin even says "We don't need masks"? He Well once the segment producer got a look at them, he saw how disturbing the looked. He said the sight of them was horrifying and sad. He BEGGED Howard to cancel the segment, but Arlene and Kitty had already arrived. Howard insisted they go on with the conjoined twins. The segment producer brought Howard to see them. Howard relented. They quickly grabbed a random girl (Howard used girls in bikinis to for live on-air ads) and had her claim to be a lesbian (I don't think she even was).

Given Arlene's reaction, I think they averted a disaster. Having the conjoined twins would have been horrible. Howard said that Arlene was ushered out of there by her handlers very quickly.

I don't know R161, that could'be been hilarious. I was laughing just imagining Kitty and Arlene in blindfolds innocently questioning them.

LOL it would have been hysterical. I would have loved to see Arlene go toe to toe with Howard in her prime.

Kitty was Jewish . Was she trying to hide that fact with such an obvious WASP name? From her looks she looked 125 % Jewish. Wasn't Arlene Francis half Armenian? She was yet another one hiding her ethnic roots. I know it was popular to change your name to avoid discrimination but people could tell that they were ethnic.

[quote] Kitty was Jewish . Was she trying to hide that fact with such an obvious WASP name?

Kitty was never one to "hide" the fact that she was Jewish. Lots of entertainers changed their names for various reasons.

When did she announce that she was a WASP Jewess then?!

I forgot to add in this tidbit: Kitty always referred to Catherine as "My daughter, the doctor." Kitty was very proud of her, yet it struck me as odd because there are plenty of doctors but there was only one really wonderful operetta singer on Broadway in the 1940s who wasn't Irra Petina.

And that was Kitty.

Would it be incorrect to assume Kitty's daughter engages in Saphic activities?

I seem to recall Arlene mentioning her Armenian roots a couple of times on What's my Line? John Daly used to remark that she got lovelier as she got older. Up to a certain point, I believe that was true. Whereas Dorothy Kilgallen started out looking pretty, someone knew how dress her up so her lack of chin didn't matter. She almost looked like a young Julie Andrews. But by 1962 she looked dreadful on camera.

If Arlene hid she was Armenian she sure didn't do a good job. I don't think a cover story for TV Guide would be the best way to hide it. Arlene never hid that she was Armenian. She would talk about it to anyone who wasn't already bored by her bringing it up.

Everybody in Show Biz before the 1960s changed their name if it had any sort of foreign tinge to it.

Sorry, no R168. Dr. Hart is married with children. Photos of them all over her office.

Incidentally, Catherine was one of the first people I knew in NY to rave about Hamilton when it had just opened downtown.

Hi! I'm Armenian. Want to hear about a legitimate holocaust?

Hi, I'm Turkish and Arlene is a big fat liar!

Isn't Moss and Kitty's son Chris, gay? He IS in the theater after all...

The legitimate theatre?

"... scissoring like two wild toilet plungers locked in passionate suction."

R165, once I read at the Datalounge some boob describe Kitty as the "quindecennial upper crust New York WASP."

not.a.bright.crowd

kc

Kitty faked being a grande dame for so very, very long, she finally became one. And then she softened up a bit.

Ilka Chase played the stepmother in the original TV production of Rodger and Hammerstein's "Cinderella," with Kaye Ballard and Alice Ghostley as her daughters.

I must admit that getting the television network buzzr has sure taught me a lot about which people seemed to have literally based their careers on being the celebrity panelists on various game shows. and I just discovered "The Name's the Same", another Goodson/Todman production that I had never heard of. Apparently all contestants and celebrity panelists/host were required to be smoking cigarettes at all times. But really, I get such a bang out of these old B&W game shows . Nothing against the shows in color ( especially The Match Game) but those early pioneering efforts are fascinating and fun.

Kitty stayed where I worked several times , she was one of my first guests. Was always quite lovely...as long as you kissed her arse.

This was such an exhilarating thread--one of our classiest--that I'm rejuvenating it just in case anyone has something to add.

If nothing else, it recalls a cultural presence that NY once had that is now totally gone. There aren't people like Arlene and Kitty anymore.

[quote]but there was only one really wonderful operetta singer on Broadway in the 1940s who wasn't Irra Petina.

And that was Kitty.

I beg your pardon?

You must remember: I starred in the LEGITIMATE theater.

While Poor Kitty... well, Kitty was from the world of moving pictures...

I think Howard Stern ihas become a genuinely good guy over the years, but he really could be a cruel asshole in the 80s and 90s.

This thread was an absolute delight. Thank you, gentlemen, for a view into a world that I find fascinating, and a world that is, unfortunately, long passed.

Speaking of Kitty and To a Tell the Truth, the new version is such an abomination that Kitty must be rolling over in her grave.

Kitty Carlisle filled the void created by the death of Brooke Astor.

Poor Brooke. She would make a great thread of her own.

In the end Kitty ended up as the queen of the NYC social scene.

Not too shabby for a for a little jewish girl from NOLA.

Love her.

[quote] Kitty Carlisle filled the void created by the death of Brooke Astor.

Unlikely, since Astor died four months AFTER Hart in 2007.

I saw Kitty in her penultimate concert before her death. It was fascinating seeing her, a connection to a world that is gone forever.

Contrary to what Arlene said, Kitty was very much a Broadwayite--seven shows (including one opera).

She was also very down to earth and, unlike some showbiz stars, never made stuff up about her work. When I met her for the first time, I couldn't resist asking her about her entrance song in White Horse Inn, "Leave it To Katarina." It sounded to me like Sail Away's "Come To Me" and other such numbers, a genre I love.

I asked Kitty if she recalled it at all, and she just said, "No." Nothing about how the crowd loved her or how she stopped the show. She never pulled that stuff.

Then one time kitty got lost in my apartment. But she'd simply gone out for a Sno-Kone.

[quote]If nothing else, it recalls a cultural presence that NY once had that is now totally gone. There aren't people like Arlene and Kitty anymore.

Well, at least you have the divine Somers Farkas!