Did Adnan Sayed murder his girlfriend?

What doc?

This one R1.

Yes, undoubtedly. There's no reason to ask for a ride from her after school when he could call Jay and have him bring his own car back.

More reasons.

Agreed R3. Syed had motive to kill her, and some people do go psycho when someone breaks up with them.

I think Jay did it.

More proof Sayed killed her.

Jay had no motive to kill her but Sayed did.

It's pretty obvious to anyone with a brain or intelligence that Adnan Syed did kill his ex girlfriend Hae since she broke up with him. Psychopaths/sociopaths do wind up murdering people who break up with them or they have the sick mentality that "If I can't have you or be in a relationship with you, nobody can!". It's also way too convenient that the woman named Asia claimed just two days after Adnan Sayed murdered his ex to see him in the library and write him a letter claiming this and yes she did change her story multiple times.

Jay is a psychopath who was playing both sides with the police. Exposure was his motive.

That's ridiculous and stupid, R10.

The problem with this case is that Jay was not provided with defense counsel, who would have bargained for immunity. THEN Jay would have been free to be completely candid. As it was, police and th DA's office played "let's wait and see what you have to say," which understandably gave Jay incentive to downplay his culpability.

We are fairly safe in assuming whatever he said that is most daminging to himself to be true . Which would be that he was offered money to help kill her, he saw her dead body, and he helped bury her. That's the least of his involvement. It could be more. But he definitely did whatever he did at the bequest of Adnan. Because if Adnan had nothing to do with it, Jay wouldn't have said anything and asked for a lawyer. And, as the more reasoned producer of the podcast said, to believe Adnan didn't do it means he's the most unlikely guy you'd ever meet, because he spontaneously loaned his car and brand new phone to Jay that day.

The phone calls the night before call are most telling. Adnan called his ex every half hour until 1 in the morning, until she got home and answered the phone. He was stalking her, and pissed that she was out. His "I just wanted her to have my new phone number" excuse for making 3 late night calls doesn't pass the smell test.

I think it was Hae's boyfriend, the one who was supposedly at Lens Crafters at the time, but whose alibi was only supplied by a family member. He also had a criminal record. He's since died. I think Jay knew what happened to Hae (and maybe even helped with disposing of her body), but was too afraid to implicate him. I forget his name.

It was Adnan. Jay was probably involved in disposing of Hae's body with Adnan but he does not want to implicate himself.

But but but ...

"Serial"

I'm dating a girl. We break up. It doesn't end well. Because of circumstances, we still see each other regularly, in passing. There's talk of getting back together. There are cell phone records of my calls to her. Then one day, she vanishes. I don't make any effort to call her. I don't retrace my steps or my conversations for that day for a clue - any clue - as to her whereabouts. In fact, when questioned by police investigating her disappearance, I can give no clear account of my actions.

Does that sound right? No, no it doesn't. Now that alone doesn't make me the killer, but it's certainly odd behavior. It certainly leads you to think that I'm lying. What do I have to hide? Why would I lie about this. Indeed, why would I lie about this for years and years, while in prison serving time for the crime?

Not proof of anything, but human behavior is very telling.

But if Adnan was at the library at the time of the murder (I COMPLETELY believe Asia), how could he have done it?

He wasn't at the library R16, had he really been at the library more people besides just Asia would have seen him. Former teachers of Adnan's and staff at his school all believe he murdered Hae. Asia just wants media attention and made that up.

[quote]Syed had motive to kill her, and some people do go psycho when someone breaks up with them.

You just described every single gay man on Earth.

[quoteNo, no it doesn't. Now that alone doesn't make me the killer, but it's certainly odd behavior.

Odd behavior? You just described every single gay man on Earth.

[quote]Not proof of anything, but human behavior is very telling.

Then everything you said, is meaningless and pointless. So why bother?

Yes.

Is he someone's bitch in prison? Or does he get beat up a lot? Men who murder women are not liked in prison.

You cannot substitute opinion for corroborated facts in a court room.

You cannot substitute opinion for good police work and solid investigation.

I believe he's guilty. I do not believe the prosecutors or police did their jobs well and left too many gaping holes and unanswered questions. He was convicted because someone had to be, not because a solid case was built to prove it.

Jay did it. Too many lies about his car.

Adnan did it. Motive and conveniently giving out his car and cell during the day hae was murdered. Not to mention calling her up three times the night before.

If you get a chance, read some of the original transcripts over at r/serialpodcastorigins. The moderator of that sub, Justwonderinif, is definitely some form of crazy, but her timelines are invaluable.

R24 Jay lied about his car because it was used to move Hae's body and he helped Adnan do this.

Judge orders new trial for Adnan Syed in "Serial" case

BALTIMORE -- The conviction of a Maryland man in the 1999 murder of his ex-girlfriend has been vacated, and he's been granted a new trial, a Baltimore City Circuit Court judge ruled Thursday.

Adnan will hopefully be found guilty, yet again r27 and sent back to prison. I agree with r25, I read the site he mentioned as I was not going to listen to all of the entire serial podcasts.

Adnan killed me!

It's a lot harder to establish guilt beyond a reasonable doubt so many years after the crime. This dude is obviously guilty so here's hoping he doesn't get out.

Agreed r30. If he really was in the library after school more people besides that fame whore woman would have came forward. Even a lot of his former teachers believe he murdered Hae.

Any updates?

I think Jay did it. Something about the way he talks about that night seems so spooked.

Dirty Muslim

R33, Jay was involved in moving Hae's body in his car, and helping Adnan dump her body in the woods as though she were trash. Adnan deserves to be in prison and I hope he stays there and is found guilty yet again.

Has anyone watched HBO's The Case Against Adnan Syed?

From the NY Times article about the finale: "New tests performed at the defense’s request revealed that none of the samples tested positive for Syed’s DNA. His DNA also was not found among samples taken from Lee’s car, where prosecutors have said they believe she was strangled. No physical evidence against Syed was presented at his trial in 2000, so these findings could add heft to his innocence claim. Still, there is a major caveat: No one else’s DNA was found on Lee’s body or in her car, either. That means only that the killer, whether it was someone else or Syed, left no detectable trace among the areas sampled."

"Latent fingerprints pulled from the rearview mirror of Lee’s car did not match Syed’s. The defense requested that they be compared with prints in the database. They did not match with anyone’s prints in the system. Whoever left the prints has never been arrested and booked."

More Questions About the Car The state’s key witness, Jay Wilds, a former friend of Syed’s, told the police that after he helped Syed bury Lee’s body, he went with Syed to ditch Lee’s car at a grassy lot in a residential area of Baltimore. Wilds led the police to the car about six weeks after Lee was killed.

Private investigators hired by Berg asked Erik Ervin, a turf physiologist with a Ph.D. in horticulture, to examine the grassy lot, along with photographs of the car from the day police discovered it. Numerous factors — including the freshness of the tire tracks, the freshness of the grass blades visible in the treads and the condition of the grass beneath the car — led Ervin to believe that the car had been there for only a week at most.

Autopsy May Not Match State’s Theory The private investigators also spoke with Jan Gorniak, the chief medical examiner of Fulton County, Ga. She examined the autopsy report and photographs and surmised that descriptions of Lee’s injuries did not in many ways appear consistent with the theory that she died during a struggle in her car.

Because of markings caused by a phenomenon called lividity, which Gorniak described as “the settling of blood after you die,” she said that Lee’s body must have lain for eight to 12 hours somewhere other than where she was ultimately buried, in Baltimore’s Leakin Park. Her assessment contradicts the prosecution’s timeline, which has Syed and Wilds burying Lee’s body about five hours after the slaying.

New Contradictions in Wilds’s Testimony Wilds gave two police interviews and testified at trial, and the contradictions among those accounts were well documented in “Serial” and in earlier episodes of the HBO series. They are significant and many.

Berg contacted Wilds, who declined to be interviewed for the series. He did, however, provide statements. In them, he made several new claims. One was that the police had coached him to say in his second taped interview that Syed first showed him Lee’s body, in the trunk of her car, at a Best Buy parking lot, not at a meeting point off Edmondson Avenue, as he had originally said.

The Best Buy location matches a map drawn by investigators based on cellphone geolocation records. Those records have themselves been called into question — a factor cited in the lower courts’ decisions to vacate Syed’s conviction. In his statement to Berg, Wilds said that Syed showed up to his house in Lee’s car with the body in the trunk. This is new.

Also new: Wilds told Berg that Syed asked him to procure 10 pounds of marijuana. Wilds said that once the marijuana was acquired, Syed threatened to turn him in if he did not help bury Lee’s body.

The police and prosecutors have consistently stood by their methods and conclusions. According to Syed’s defense lawyer, C. Justin Brown, the state’s attorney general refused as recently as November to offer Syed any plea deal without a full admission of guilt and more prison time.

It was Don

[quote]and left too many gaping holes

You just described every single gay man on Earth.

Didn't watch the HBO doc, so I don't have all the info. And listening to other reviews and commentary on Serial, or this doc, it sounds like most believe he was (at a minimum) unfairly convicted, and many think he didn't commit the crime.

All I can remember is after listening to Serial, my gut told me he was somehow involved. It's been several years now since I listened, but if I remember correctly, wasn't he calling her regularly up until she disappeared? Why would you stop calling someone who disappeared, I would think you would try calling non-stop. Also, his story of not being able to give his whereabouts when she vanished was sketchy. An ex-girlfriend of yours disappears, someone you'd been in touch with regularly, aren't you going back a week to re-trace your steps and try to remember if there was some clue she left behind? To simply say "I don't remember" seems off.

Also, I've always been perplexed why the guy she was dating at the time (Don?) wasn't ever really considered.

It's like it's de rigueur never to agree that a Muslim man likely committed any crime.

He's guilty AF.

That's occurred to me too, R41. You can't really be "woke" if you think Adnan was involved.

I do believe he was somehow involved, but the original story doesn't add up (especially Jay's wildly differing accounts). There was also that other couple who were buying drugs that day (whose house they stopped by) and I found that their details didn't totally coalesce... I could envision a situation where one of Jay and Adnan's dealer friends threatened to kill Hae Min Lee if they didn't pay him or something. And then they were stuck with burying the body and trying to deny any involvement.

Even in the podcast he seemed to kind of accept that jail was where he was supposed to be. But still, it's 'innocent until proven guilty' and I didn't see enough proof at all. The whole trial was a sham and you can see why Gutierrez agreed to be disbarred soon after (I don't think it was just her health).

So whether he did it or not (again, I believe he did or was at least heavily involved), he should be entitled to a much better trial than the one he got.

Of course he did it.

- His phone was in area of her grave.

-He lied about so many things following her death

-He was obsessed with her

-She broke it off with him

Who TF else would have done it?

There are two separate, but obviously related, issues that this case raises: 1) Syed's guilt; 2) whether he received a "fair" trial

I believe he's guilty or at least deeply involved. But, the second question of whether he received a fair trial always needed to be examined further - and certainly shouldn't have been a result of a podcast 15 years later. The amount of time that has passed has only made the situation more difficult with people having died and other evidence clouded with age. Now, we're at the 20 year mark since the crime. Many of the issues might have been clarified easily and quickly had they been addressed earlier.

There certainly seems to be some errors and omissions made by the police and the investigation that were compounded by the prosecuting attorney that have obfuscated the crime and his guilt to make this even a question. Of course, there will always be people on the fringes who agree or disagree with a verdict.

We should all be concerned with whether he received a fair trial because justice will always best be served in the long-run if people do. While he is likely guilty, there are, have been, and definitely will be people who are not guilty, but are railroaded by police, prosecutors, and inadvertently by less competent defense lawyers (since his is dead, we can't know for sure whether competence is an issue, as Monday morning quaterbacking is absurd).

He is guilty for sure. He has a really fragile ego, and still won’t admit what he did because he wants his family to keep believing in his innocence. Once he committed to his lies there was no going back for him. There simply is no better realistic logical explanation. He did it. And Hae deserves better than all this.

Min Lee was being molested.She told her girlfriend that before she died.Either Adnan did it or the person in her family molesting her did it.Jay's history of domestic violence does make him suspect.But he was Adnan's lapdog.A poser who tried desperately to fit in with affluent kids (Jay is from inner city Baltimore ).The police on the case seem dumb and slow.It took a chinese caller telling them Adnan did it for an arrest to be made.Iam also side eyeing Min Lee's new boyfriend.

I have no idea if he is guilty or not. I can see both sides of this case.

That HBO series is absurd. Adnan literally narrates much of it. It's not in the least big objective.

He's been in prison for about 20 years. A sociopath can make up excellent stories over 20 years to explain why he's innocent.

R46 [quote]He is guilty for sure. He has a really fragile ego, and still won’t admit what he did because he wants his family to keep believing in his innocence. Once he committed to his lies there was no going back for him. There simply is no better realistic logical explanation. He did it.

This is almost retardedly simple... which was fine until you said there "simply is no better realistic logical explanation." lol. Do you think this would hold up in court?

Agree that the HBO series is absurd, and almost ludicrously overconfident. They really assumed he was going to get released and decided to not even remotely try and remain objective. A shame because if it had presented it more evenly it would have made it better to watch, too.

R47 I had a completely different reading of their dynamic. Jay seemed older, more charismatic, cooler (they describe him as Dennis Rodman-esque), and in with a tougher and more powerful crowd. I don't think he was the little lap dog trying to fit in with the popular kid at all, they needed HIM for his drug connections. It was them lending HIM their cars, etc. Adnan was clearly trying to escape that affluent muslim boy image anyway.

Whatever happened to that streaker who went through the same area? I can't recall if that ended up having any significance.

I'm surprised by all the woke Adnan advocates (on Twitter, the plurality or majority of them are white women) don't find themselves in something of a bind: Jay is an African-American man: how can woke people, who are so disinclined to believe either a South Asian Muslim man or an African-American man has committed a particular crime, able to say that Jay's guilty of killing Hae while Adnan isn't?

Assigning guilt to Don, a white guy, seems like a nice way out of the bind, but that still implies that Jay lied, possibly because at the very least because he participated in the crime. That's not very woke of them either. It's still a bind.

Perhaps those woke people are prioritizing being a South Asian Muslim man over an African-American man in relation to the possibility of either having committed a crime and are just running with it.

To provide context, I believe Adnan committed the crime and Jay was an accessory after the fact, in that he helped dispose of Hae's body and the car — i.e., the state's case.

He didn't call Hae's pager after she disappeared, to try to see if she'd call him and tell him where she was. The only close friend who didn't bother.

When in custody, he told the police that he didn't remember ANYTHING about the day Hae disappeared. That was 46 days after her disappearance (1/13/99 - 2/28/99). Everyone, including Adnan, became aware of Hae's disappearance on 1/13/99 or 1/14/99. If someone I'm close to disappears, and I'm told the next day she's missing as of the day before, I'm going to remember what my day consisted of the day before — especially if I had a day planner (like all magnet students had to carry) filled with my schedule.

The whole thing he did with Koenig — "I'm just a random guy and you're taking my side, Sarah. I mean, you don't know me; I could have done it - I could be lying to you, and you're just ignoring that" — is just another little ploy liars play.

I wish they'd just do fMRI scans. Johns Hopkins (Baltimore) has them. First do one of Adnan's brain, to see whether he's a psychopath (yes, fMRIs can tell us now). Then ask him questions and see if he's lying (we'd need to know if he's a psychopath first, to properly read fMRI readouts from his interrogation answers).

[R50]

Fair assessment. ....that pisser in the park was freed.I still don't understand going into a park in 30 degree weather to pee.That park sits ways back from main streets with bathroom in stores (whether they let you use them is another story). Leakin Park in Baltimore is also notorious for male prostitution and DL robberies.So its all weird. I looked at the NC dude....him leaving Maryland so quickly after she died sent up all kinds of WTF"s with me.Adnan might be quilty....but its definitely enough circumstantial evidence to look at others. Even Min's girl who liked Adnan too....js

[quote]It took a chinese caller telling them Adnan did it for an arrest to be made.Iam also side eyeing Min Lee's new boyfriend.

What Chinese caller?

Also, how did the new boyfriend die?

I, too, believe that Adnan is guilty given all that is now known. However, I am unconvinced he was proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. As someone above said, some many questions would be answered had everyone done their job correctly. I am also generally troubled by many life sentenced imposed on minors. I believe Adnan's case was too screwed up to be at all certain that he deserved that sentence.

Why couldn’t they just check surveillance video like they did with Jussie?

The jury found him guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. They had access to the witnesses and were able to judgment after observing them on the stand. That factored into their decision.

[quote]It's like it's de rigueur never to agree that a Muslim man likely committed any crime. He's guilty AF.

Oh please, WTF does him being Muslim have to do with this. Yet it did appear the young woman's family wasn't happy about her dating outside her culture. IIRC, they had to sneak around to see each other.

Most of these foreigners come to the US for a better life, for better educations, for better careers, essentially to make good money and life much better than they could back 'home'. Yet most of them hold on to to their cultures for dear life. They usually don't want their children to date outside of their culture, whether they are Asians, South Asians. Especially Muslims, they don't want their children to date/marry Catholics, Jews etc.

[Quote]Oh please, WTF does him being Muslim have to do with this.

You can't expect rational thought from those types.

[quote] Yet it did appear the young woman's family wasn't happy about her dating outside her culture. IIRC, they had to sneak around to see each other.

It was actually mainly the young man's family. The young woman's family barely participated in her life outside the home.

His being a Muslim had a bit to do with it, in that his supporters were initially made up of people from his mosque, and he also stole cash from his mosque a few years before the murder.

Some people thought HBO's The Night Of was somewhat based on this case. I see no similarities, just that the accused young man was a Muslim born in the US. The similarities ended there.

The young woman who was murdered in TNO was a one night stand, not a GF of the accused. The TNO lead character was nothing like Adnan, he wasn't cocky and self assured, he wasn't sexually active, he was basically a nerd from a working class Queens NY family. His father drove a cab and his mother worked in a fabric shop.

Were Adnan's family wealthy or upper middle class? They had a nice large house, but most people, outside of NYC, and living in small towns in the US, can easily buy a nice comfortable home on much less than what the same type of house would cost in NY state or New Jersey.

Adnan's family is middle class. Woodlawn in Maryland is not a wealthy community.Further up in Pikesville is considered affluent. I got a giggle at her friends trying to find the murderer.An that one who went on a date with MC guy...she had better thank the heavens he didn't murder her. Min's family was strange and yeah i wondered if they found out about Adnan and beat her to death. Especially after the abuse angle came out. But Adnan was convicted....and i do think his family can not except he might be a killer. His older brother did say he was the "golden child"...very smart but spoiled by their mother.Who didn't want him dating anybody until after his education was complete.

Which puzzled me,they were strict on him...but let him associate with JAY...somethings not adding up. Especially if Adnan smoked weed too,his family never smelled that....I do not believe it.

Woodlawn is known as Hoodlawn. It is definitely not a wealthy area of Maryland.

Men just love killing women don't they?

R52, as I understand it, you can't "tell" if someone is a psychopath from reading an fMRI; the results might suggest that the person is a psychopath, but a diagnosis would depend on a number of other factors.

I'm surprised, BTW, that so many assume that a killer, or possible killer, must necessarily be a psychopath. If you look at the past few thousand years of human history (see, e.g., R64), you would be hard-pressed to argue that lying and killing are out-of-the-ordinary human behaviors.

Yes I think he did. He came off as way too glib in Serial

R65, R52 isn't implying that most killers are psychopaths. The idea is that they interrogate him while he's subject to fMRI, but that first you'd need to use it to determine if he's a psychopath, so that you can properly interpret fMRI readouts for each question asked of him. That is, it's possible that a lie by a psychopath has a readout different from a lie by a non-psychopath.

fMRI isn't perfect but it's entirely possible for a court to decide that is sufficiently reliable for evidence purposes.

[R63].....I guess because its predominantly african american you added hood.Hate to bust your bubble lovey but Woodlawn property values make it more affuent that your Highlandtown townhomes.Its not the projects simply because its in Baltimore County.Boardering what was once the jewish beverly hills of Pikesville.

Jay now claims a completely different story for the supposed burial of Hae. And the livor mortis, the pooling of blood with Hae's body, proves that she was never twisted up in a trunk but rather her body was kept pretty stretched out after her death.

We still don't know what happened her. Even if Adnan did kill her, the state's story of what happened is bullshit.

[Quote].I guess because its predominantly african american you added hood..Hate to bust your bubble lovey but Woodlawn property values make it more affuent that your Highlandtown townhomes. Its not the projects simply because its in Baltimore County.

What does highlandtown have to do with this? And there are more black people there in Baltimore city than the county anyway so that is a really weird rebuttal to go down.

Are you drunk?

If he did it then why wouldn’t he have taken the deal to serve 4 years instead of taking a gamble with a life sentence?

R46 nails it, even after listening to Serial i believed he was involved in her death and was lying. I never understood why people got way impassioned that he was innocent?

[R71]

No but your racist to call Woodlawn a ghetto and "poor"...when thats a boldfaced Hampden (Baltimore's KKK community)lie.That description had zero to do with case...and everything to do with your own sick,need to attack communities of affluent african americans. Go back in your trailer.

[quote]He didn't call Hae's pager after she disappeared, to try to see if she'd call him and tell him where she was. The only close friend who didn't bother.

Neither did her CURRENT boyfriend. You don't think that's suspicious as well?

The whole thing is fascinating because of the people involved and how much of the Murder, whoever did it, was able to have so much of the evidence covered up.

I mean really, look at the people involved:

1) Who the hell lends a car and a brand new cell phone to someone they claim to "barely know"?

2) What kind of person agrees to help murder and bury the body of an ex-Girlfriend, let alone agrees to help do such a thing with someone he "barely knows."

3) What kind of person's girlfriend gets murdered and then has his mother AND step mother falsify work records at two different work locations, to provide an alibi? And then also never bothers to try to call his girlfriend once while she's missing?

Adman had a step mother?

No, R77. #3 in R76 is not referring to Adnan.

I think racism lends people to believe Adnan did it because he's Muslim and honor killings of women are common in Middle East and South Asian culture but I don't believe he did it. I think he's innocent for some reason. The fact that he doesn't have an alibi is actually my reason why I think he's innocent. A sociopath or compulsive liar (like Jay was purported to be according to friends and family) would make up anything to get out of trouble. They lie convincingly like Jussie Smollett. The truth isn't as elaborate. Adnan genuinely doesn't remember that afternoon and has remained consistent in that for 20 years despite being jailed for life . A sociopath got off on this crime and is living his life free as a bird. I suspect the person responsible is Jay.

He had Adnan's car that day.

R79 well, that's not necessarily true. His story changed slightly because after Asia said she remembered him at the library, he claimed he remembered being at the library.

But I do agree that if he were so maniacal to have been able to plan out Hae's murder, I find it odd that he wasn't prepared to come up with a better Alibi for himself. Some could say that his alibi fell apart when Jay turned on him, but I still think he would come up with something after the fact.

I'm also not sure how anyone can take Jay's word for anything considering that his story changes every other day.

Also to go along with what I wrote at R76:

4) Investigators who have been charged with faking evidence in multiple cases which led to wrongful convictions.

R80, According to his own friends, Jay was known to lie alot.

If it Ramadan during that time, that means Adnan likely wasn't at the mall at 2:30pm. It's more likely a hungry and fasting teenager was at the library like Asia said rather than a shopping mall where all his friends would be eating.

The smoking gun is that apparently , Adnan had his car at night time. People that attended his mosque were the ones that snitched on him.

Serial was completely biased- they missed quite a bit of facts, most of which can be discovered by google'ing it.

He did it because she refused to work it out with him, and he was obsessed with her. There are FAR too many circumstantial evidence elements (and yes, that is enough- the only thing better than that is video) that point to his guilt. He is a narcissist and would not have her do that to him.

Anyone that thinks he is innocent needs to look the facts up.

[quote]If it Ramadan during that time, that means Adnan likely wasn't at the mall at 2:30pm. It's more likely a hungry and fasting teenager was at the library

Adnan ignored Muslim strictures agains sex and drugs, but he was a stickler for fasting?

I listened to the podcast just last week, and I started the docu but don't know if I'll stick with it. I thought the Serial host, Koegel, did try to present the various sides, but maybe deep down she wanted to be Adnan's savior.

I can't believe this is an HBO production. It's pure shit. The first episode is spent saying what a great guy he is. The second talks to his mother about his conviction and a bunch of other stuff. It didn't follow a logical layout when reporting about something

The first episode being devoted to talking about how "wonderful" he was, told me all I want to know about this. It is SLANTED/BIASED bullshit. I only watch parts of the second episode where his mom was being interviewed. That was enough for me. If they have to sink to doing such a slanted "documentary" (I hate using this word to describe this shitfest), then he's guilty.

[Quote]Serial was completely biased- they missed quite a bit of facts, most of which can be discovered by google'ing it.

Serial actually handled this case very well, the HBO doc was far more "biased" in its presentation.

But this is such a lazy go to rebuttal.

R84, even if he wasn't fasting, he didn't have his car to go to the mall anyway. He gave his car and phone to Jay so he could buy Stephanie a gift.

It's believed Hae died around 2:36pm. She was supposed to pick up some kids at 3:30 and was missing for that.

If that's correct, it's more likely Hae went to the mall to meet Don and encountered Jay in Adnan's car on her way. An exchange occurred and Jay flew into a rage killing her.

Or Adnan asked Hae for a ride to the mall to meet up with Jay/get his car back. He got pissed after she said she is going to meet up with her boyfriend Don and killed her in the car. Jay, beholden to Adnan, because he was dealing drugs, decided to help Adnan bury the body.

The only confounding element is no DNA tying Adnan to Hae's body.

She was strangled to death. There should have been fingerprints around her throat and DNA evidence underneath her fingernails.

It was a very personal crime.

Don's alibi was very sketchy, it is weird he wasn't investigated more. Not saying he did it, but as the bf tou think he would be a prime suspect.

I think the fact that the cell phone evidence - the prosecutions smoking gun - was inadmissible means he shouldn't have been convicted. There's no proof he was anywhere near the park where Lee was buried. The lack of DNA evidence is also telling. And the revolving stories Jay told makes it reasonable doubt very, well, reasonable.

My gut is saying he had something to do with it, but my law degree says he should not have been convicted.

R91, from what I remember didn't they use the pings as evidence that he was at the location, but then it turned out that the same towers were used for whoever's apartment they were at? And also, didn't they base the time of Hae's murder based on the cell phone tower pings, meaning that, it didn't necessarily happen when they said it did.

There is also the coach who remembers Adnan being at the practice and that the day he remembers had to be the day Hae died because it was the only one where they could have had an outdoor practice.

They also found Jay's clothes that he wore to bury Hae, but not Adnan's.

The only fingerprints they found of Adnan's were on the map book in Hae's car. The map had the pate of the burial site torn out. However, Adnan's prints were only on the back page of the book, and nowhere near any of the pages torn out.

Jay and Adnan both went over to Jennifer Pusateri's house to smoke weed around 6-7pm in the evening.

She lives near by the cell tower that pinged for Leakin Park.

That's why the cell phone evidence is seen as murky and inadmissible.

You need DNA evidence to truly say Adnan is guilty beyond reasonable doubt.

Oh, yes, Jen.

I remember feeling like Jen had more to do with it than she let on.

Also, another shady character... what kind of person helps a friend cover up that they just participated in a murder?

Who are these fucking people?

[R51] Muslim is the new Black

[R76] Love your post. the HBO doc is way biased and Rabia from the documentary and Sarah from the Serial podcast both seem to be 'in love' or completely snowed by this guy (even if Sarah's words say different). Evidently, Sarah is very offended by this assertion.

[R91] I agree. Adnan is totes guilty, but there is just not enough solid evidence for a conviction. Spotty/sketchy memories and potentially fautly cell tower pings are not enough. I don't think Don, the new boyfriend, had a motive. He hardly knew her as they could have only potentially worked like 8 times together and they had just started dating. There's also a theory out there that Adnan did kill her and had blanked out the murder, but had realized he must have done it when he then had a body to dispose of. Maybe that's how he's maintaining his innocence within himself. He doesn't even remember doing it.

March 28, 2019: New DNA evidence is released.

The Baltimore Sun released documents relating to DNA testing that was carried out in the fall of 2018. Per the documents, prosecutors tested twelve items found at the scene in Leakin Park, including Lee's necklace, clothing, and fingernail clippings. None of the samples tested positive for either Syed or Wilds's DNA.

This case just keeps getting stranger

R95, yeah, she is shady as well just like Don.

I still don't understand how Jay and Adnan can sit around and smoke weed with friends after just killing and burying a body for the first time?

Jay told police he helped bury Hae. Why was there no Adnan or Jay DNA found on Hae?

Jay's own friends call him a pathological liar. So much of this case is just based on a narrative he came up with the cops.

There is almost no physical evidence saying what happened.

[quote]I don't think Don, the new boyfriend, had a motive. He hardly knew her as they could have only potentially worked like 8 times together and they had just started dating.

Then why go through an elaborate ruse to create an alibi?

And you don't know that Don didn't have a motive. Just because someone has only dated awhile doesn't mean they can't murder you. Who is to say he wasn't extremely jealous that Hae was still calling on her ex all the time?

What if Hae went to visit him at the mall that day and threw in his face that Adnan wanted a ride? How do we know that wasn't his motivation?

And again, even if you've only been dating a week.... your new girlfriend/boyfriend goes missing and you don't make a single attempt to contact her?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not an, "Adnan is totally innocent person." I just think it's fascinating that all these people are shady motherfuckers.

There's no physical evidence tying Jay to Hae Min Lee's burial like he claims either. It's possible Jay made the whole thing up and wasn't part of this crime at all. .Jay was coached on what to say entirely by police in exchange for immunity for drug dealing. He was terrified and clearly being fed info by police if you listen back to the tapes. Probably snitched on some big drug dealers in Baltimore as well to the police. Notice he got the hell out of dodge right after.

The state needed something to pin on Adnan since he was the ex boyfriend and Jay became the central piece/pawn for that.

Perhaps Don should be DNA tested. It's possible his time card for the afternoon was faked by his mom. He made sure he sent the time card to police right away so his alibi would check out.

What 20-something dates a high school girl? Controlling men typically.

Does Don have any Baltimore PD uncles in his family? Just saying.

People really underestimate the privilege being close kin to law enforcement can provide sometimes.

It's easy to pin a crime or exploit any poor or vulnerable pawn

[quote]Perhaps Don should be DNA tested. It's possible his time card for the afternoon was faked by his mom. He made sure he sent the time card to police right away so his alibi would check out.

Don't forget... he didn't just have ONE time card..... he had two. He claimed to be working at a different location, the second half of the day. That was his alibi.

The first time card was signed off on by his Manager... who happened to be his mother.

The second time card was signed off on the Manager of that store... who happened to be HIS STEP MOTHER.

No one working at the second store remembered seeing him there that day but apparently that's okay, because days blend together. However, that argument doesn't work when you're talking about Adnan and no one remembers seeing him where he was (Track), except his track coach did remember seeing him at practice at the supposed time of the murder.

Further, it has come up that what was odd about Don's alleged second time card is that, I believe it had the same ID # as his first card, which apparently, wasn't possible as the stores didn't have that kind of Technology to tag the same employee across multiple stores.

R103, that's interesting.

Very important evidence if the time cards are forged. I don't think the police investigated his alibi intensely enough.

He was easier to clear because he had paperwork/proof of his alibi. Adnan had nothing.

But this leads to question of motive. Don and Hae were only dating for a few weeks. Adnan and Hae had a far more significant relationship and he called her several times the night before (he says to give her his new number). The phone Adnan had was brand new. Adnan must have been a generous guy granting Jay his car and brand new cell phone for the day. Cell phones were prized possessions back in 1999 especially for teenagers. Not as ubiquitous as they are today.

How did Jay know where Hae's car was if he wasn't part of this? Did Jay, the compulsive liar, just lie completely about being an accomplice to this crime, in order to save his own ass?

I still think Adnan had the strongest motive in this case. Spurned, obsessive ex. But there's no evidence linking him to the crime. The state even admitted the cell phone records are inadmissible. He's not being granted another trial though which is unfair considering he wasn't found guilty beyond reasonable doubt. The state's evidence was the cell tower records (now dismissed) and Jay's testimony (now into question for police tampering).

[Quote]How did Jay know where Hae's car was if he wasn't part of this?

There is a possibility that information was fed to him by the cops. It does happen.

I don't think I lean that way, but can't rule it out.

Wow. If Don really did this..

That is the last person Hae was presumably with if he wasn't at work that afternoon. She went over to the mall to see him.

He needs to be DNA tested just like Adnan and Jay were. They found nothing linking either Jay or Adnan to Min Lee's body or clothing but the state's case claims both Jay and Adnan carried her body and buried her. Are Jay and Adnan both innocent?

It's amazing that he was convicted and sentenced (to life?) all because "there was a possibility he might have been jealous" and because his day wasn't well accounted for. There was absolutely no other decent evidence linking him to the crime.

Whether or not he did it (and I lean towards him being involved... or at least *knowing* it was going to happen on some level), the case needs to be re-opened. (A) to expose Jay for his blatant lying under oath, as well as the corrupt police who coached him. (B) to explore the possibility of Don being involved. and (C) to bring real CONCRETE justice to the perpetrator of Hae's murder, whoever they were.

I also think the whole scenario with Jennifer seemed strange and not-well-accounted-for. I would like to hear more about that.

I totally agree the Baltimore PD really dropped the ball in regards to Don. It makes zero sense they didn't at least follow that thread. Just bad, bad, if not criminal, detective work.

And, again, I think Adnan had something to do with Hae's murder. It just looks so shady that they didn't follow other leads and used the obviously coached testimony of a pathological liar as their main evidence source.

If Adnan really did it, he could've just taken the plea, did his time, moved to Pakistan and start a whole new life.

He insists he didn't want to take a plea because he isn't guilty.

r67 no offense but why waste money hooking a convicted murderer up to some machine to determine if he's a psycho? Who cares? We know he did it, does it make it less egregious if he is a psycho? r73 Totally agreed. I never understood why a textbook domestic violence/breakup abuse case became so fascinating to so many. r79 Doesn't see the irony of saying that they went after Adnan because he's Muslim, and then proceeding to blame a black guy. Rabia certainly got very fucking rich off of this and everyone else lost. And Adnan didn't take the plea deal because assholes like Rabia had him convinced he would be vindicated. He didn't want to admit he did it to everyone he has hoodwinked for so many years, I bet he thought he could win a lawsuit for false imprisonment too. And I've yet to hear how his trial was unfair, is it because he didn't get the outcome he hoped for? I didn't even watch that shitshow on HBO cause I knew it had the stench of Rabia all over it. Adnan is like Dr. Jeffrey Macdonald, he will go to his grave denying he did it, but we all know he did.

R110 Yet still, nothing in your entire post is reason (beyond reasonable doubt) to have convicted him. There is no proof.

Of course Rabia is annoying as fuck, and most of us believe he was somehow involved. But "he didn't want to admit he did it to everyone he has hoodwinked for so many years!" is not a good enough argument.

I don't know why so many people still seem to believe that it's "guilty until proven innocent" when it actually works the other way around.

Adnan Syed DNA not found on Hae Min Lee

Many samples were taken from Lee during the original investigation, including fingernail clippings and material from necklaces and clothing. New tests performed at the defense’s request revealed that none of the samples tested positive for Syed’s DNA. His DNA also was not found among samples taken from Lee’s car, where prosecutors have said they believe she was strangled.

Autopsy May Not Match State’s Theory

The private investigators also spoke with Jan Gorniak, the chief medical examiner of Fulton County, Ga. She examined the autopsy report and photographs and surmised that descriptions of Lee’s injuries did not in many ways appear consistent with the theory that she died during a struggle in her car.

Because of markings caused by a phenomenon called lividity, which Gorniak described as “the settling of blood after you die,” she said that Lee’s body must have lain for eight to 12 hours somewhere other than where she was ultimately buried, in Baltimore’s Leakin Park. Her assessment contradicts the prosecution’s timeline, which has Syed and Wilds burying Lee’s body about five hours after the slaying.

New Contradictions in Jay Wilds’s Testimony

Jay Wilds gave two police interviews and testified at trial, and the contradictions among those accounts were well documented in “Serial” and in earlier episodes of the HBO series. (Click here for a useful comparison of the various timelines Wilds gave to investigators.) They are significant and many.

Berg contacted Wilds, who declined to be interviewed for the series. He did, however, provide statements.

In them, he made several new claims. One was that the police had coached him to say in his second taped interview that Syed first showed him Lee’s body, in the trunk of her car, at a Best Buy parking lot, not at a meeting point off Edmondson Avenue, as he had originally said.

The Best Buy location matches a map drawn by investigators based on cellphone geolocation records. Those records have themselves been called into question — a factor cited in the lower courts’ decisions to vacate Syed’s conviction.

In his statement to Berg, Wilds said that Syed showed up to his house in Lee’s car with the body in the trunk. This is new.

Also new: Wilds told Berg that Syed asked him to procure 10 pounds of marijuana. Wilds said that once the marijuana was acquired, Syed threatened to turn him in if he did not help bury Lee’s body.

A high school girl was killed. Would it be a business conflict murder? Drug deal gone wrong? Political assassination? Please stop lying, Adnan.

It's an honor killing like some Muslims love to do. His Muslim family didn't like a Christian Korean-American girl, so he killed her to prove his loyalty to his family. Now it's his honor to be in jail for the rest of his life. He deserves it.

R117, we don't have evidence to prove that is the case.

We can believe he's guilty but we can't prove he is guilty.

Honor killing sounds like a stretch to me. I think it was a classic jealous boyfriend killing.

Honor killings from a nominally Muslim American teenager who was a pothead, drank alcohol, didn't pray 5 times a day, keep halal, intermingled with the opposite sex/ had casual sex? Yeah, right. Adnan wasn't a religious fanatic.

Jealous and obsessed boyfriend is more like it.

Doubt there's a religious angle to the killing

So neither Adnan or Jay’s DNA was found at the crime scene or on Hae’s body. But I assume DNA from someone was discovered, so why can’t they take that DNA and do a genetic genealogy investigation a la EAR/ONS? If Adnan is innocent (and I have my doubts) it seems like generic genealogy would be the best way to generate another suspect.

It sounds like it's possible Hae wasn't even killed inside a car or buried at the time they said she was.

The state totally botched this investigation in many ways: not vetting Don's alibi thoroughly, using Jay's testimony that appears police concocted, and not DNA testing Adnan earlier.

There was a snowstorm on the night of Jan 13. It's possible Jay and Adnan were cautious enough to use gloves when handling the body and burial. I just don't see how no DNA was left at all if she was strangled to death and there was a struggle. Don should be tested.

Another theory:

Jay and Jen are together in Adnan's car. Hae comes across them, maybe thinking it's Adnan, and finds them in a compromising situation. Maybe Jen's coming on to Jay, maybe they're having a snuggle, maybe it's totally innocent but she reads more into it. Hae tells them she's going to tell her friend Stephanie (Jay's girlfriend that was celebrating a birthday that day). Jen and Hae get into a physical altercation, resulting in Hae's death. Jay helps Jen hide the body. They decide to pin it on Adnan.

Months after Adnan's arrest, Adnan's lawyer Christina Guiterrez subpoenad Don's time sheets (the police never bothered to do this). A day later, the prosecutor also subpoenaed the time sheets. This timing is curious for people who don't like coincidences.

The time sheets sent to the prosecutor by Lens Crafters showed Don did NOT work on the 13th Jan.

A few days later, LensCrafters sent a second time sheet showing that Don had worked that day at a different store, under a different employee number. He was due to receive overtime for that pay period because of this extra day but the overtime wasn't paid, suggesting that maybe he didn't work that day after all.

The LensCrafters employee who faxed the 2nd time sheet to Urick made a point of stating on the cover sheet that the extra time sheet had been supplied by Don's mother.

This is pretty damning for Don

I now don't think Jay did it. I think Don and Adnan are the biggest suspects.

I agree with the person upthread who said the most fascinating thing about this are the people surrounding it. So much of it has been muddied because the people involved in the story are all fucked up. It seems like the killer(s) could literally be anyone.

1) The Detectives on the case have been charged with falsifying evidence, witness tampering, etc. resulting in several false arrests.

2) Don's Alibi that no one seems to think is suspicious. It wasn't just a time sheet signed by his mother, there was a second time sheet signed off on by someone who turned out to be his Step-mother. He's dating Hae for several weeks and she disappears one night and he never bothered to even try to contact her that night, or any other night, after. But he DID contact at least one of her friends and spoke to that friend several times, over the course of Hae's disappearance.

3) Adnan, her ex, also doesn't bother trying to contact Hae, even though they're still close. He seems to not recall a single thing that happened that day and randomly lends out his car and brand new cell phone to someone he barely knows, who just happens to be the person who later claims helped with the burial of the body.

4) Jay is the "criminal element" of the area and also a compulsive liar. He also seems to have any problems with being approached to help kill a girl and bury her body. He's also known to have been a snitch for the Baltimore PD.

5) Asia McLean claims to be Adnan's alibi in the Library, but then won't testify, and later claims that she only signed the Affidavit because Adnan's family pressured her, but then says she did actually see him, and never recants her statement that Adnan's family contacted her. She testifies years down the road (after Serial) that she did see him in the Library - but also says she has no interest in ever seeing or speaking to Adnan. Also claims that Hae's ghost came to her.

and on and on.

Just another thing to add to the weirdness surrounding this murder:

Just weeks prior to Hae's death, another young, Asian, girl was strangled to death by a newly released convict, and buried in the woods. I believe the girl also went to Woodlawn High School. No one seemed to investigate whether this person may have also murdered Hae.

My questions are if Adnan did it, after all these years, why not just admit it and implicate anyone else that may have been a part of it, (Jay, Don, etc)?

If your Jay and you did lie about it (and he's been known to lie about everything), why are you so adamant that you didn't lie about any of this?

Adnan refused a plea deal that would've let him out of jail in 4 years.

What guilty man wouldn't take that? He still insists he's innocent and says he has no idea where he was that afternoon.

A man who thought he was about to be set free to great fanfare and could sue the city of Baltimore r129, a man who was misled by a trollish woman and believed his own hype.

How is there no evidence anywhere?

The documentary is an adaptation of Rabia's book. She's a producer.

It's purely an advocacy piece. Exploiting Hae's murder paid for Rabia's McManshion, Acura, and third child. Tons of money.

Koenig is a very liberal Jewish-American journalist. She feels intense sympathy about Islamophobia and so she slanted Serial towards Adnan. Serial is BS.

Muslim really is the new black. Never guilty of anything anymore. Most of Adnan's crusaders are white women, BTW. They're in love with him. It's weird.

R127, link please. I think you're a bit off on the details.

Yeah r132, the fact that people are blaming the black guy is hilarious, how incredibly woke of them.

R133 it was talked about in the Serial podcast. I didn't remember all of it, Hae's murder happened before the second murder of another young, Asian, female.

[quote]In 2012, a man named Ronald Lee Moore killed himself in a Louisiana prison at the age 40. A subsequent investigation by the Innocence Project linked him to the 1999 murder of Baltimore County resident Annelise Hyang Suk Lee. Could Hae Min Lee have been an earlier victim of Moore, who’d been released from Baltimore County Jail on January 1st of that year? Serial’s final first-season episode throws it out as a possibility in its final episode, a late-in-the-game twist after a season in which Koenig had uncovered many clues that Syed might not be guilty but had failed to offer any kind of opposing theory. Others have run with it since then, pointing out similarities between the two crimes that the police could have missed at the time.

Oh yeah, r135, thanks for reminding me! The Innocence Project quietly walked away from this case awhile ago, I wonder why?

I can't get past the fact that the teen girl's name was [bold]Hae Min.[/bold]

[italic]Is this a joke?

Which is great, R136, so what is your theory on why there's no DNA evidence?

Do you think Adnan did it alone? And which account of Jay's do you think is the truth?

Don may have avoided calling Hae because he was an older guy dating a barely legal high school girl, didn't really care much, and didn't want to get involved. A guy you've been dating a few months, who might just be in it for the sex, doesn't try to contact you after you disapper. That's totally possible if the reality was that he didn't care about her nearly as much as she cared about him. He was a good-looking young guy at the time. Connect with your inner scumbag pussyhound. See it now?

But an extremely close ex who's been a part of your life and close circle of friends for years doesn't call you after you disappear. While everyone else in that circle of friends calls you. Um...

The jury saw a lot more evidence and came to its conclusion. Beyond a reasonable doubt.

R111, you weren't on the jury. You didn't see everything they saw, including the demeanor or witnesses up close, which informs assessments of credibility. The jury came to its conclusion beyond a reasonable doubt. Their findings of fact are very hard to overturn.

I think the DNA was too degraded r138, and I don't think the collection techniques were that advanced, I mean, didn't the DNA rule out everyone? But it wasn't the DNA from Hae's fingernails, I thought? All I know is that Adnan never let the innocence project people test the DNA which makes me think he was nervous. I think Jay helped Adnan move the body which is why he keeps changing stories, to distance and minimize his role.

No, I don't see it, R139. Especially since they had spent the night with each other the night before . It also doesn't make sense that you wouldn't care enough about her to try to contact her once... but you spend some of your time talking to her friends about where she might possibly be.

And then the whole thing about his work records being signed off by both his mothers is weird.

Just all seems too weird to me.

R141 how does it minimize his role that he helped move the body? His story has always been that he helped move the body from Best Buy to the Lincoln Park.

I can maybe see his story constantly changing if he were trying to minimize his role in actually helping to murder Hae.

R142, are you a woman? That might be why you don't see it.

Hae wasn't barely legal. She was 18 at the time.

The last person she was supposed to be with was Don and the original time sheets sent in by the LensCrafters store indicated that he was off on January 13th.

Don also spoke quite fondly of Adnan in a letter which is weird. Why would you say kind words toward your girlfriend's killer?

And that reminds me, Jay claims that Adnan told him his plan for killing Hae in advance of killing her... and if his story is true, he let Adnan kill her. Isn't he an accessory and shouldn't he have been charged as such? (I don't think they ever said he was given a deal for that in exchange for testimony).

Which brings me back to... again, what kind of people are they? If someone tells you they're going to kill someone and they want you to help... the normal response isn't, okay dude, just tell me when to pick you up.

I don't see it because it doesn't make sense. Sure, you dont care someone and you don't bother to call, okay. A person like that isn't then going to spend time talking about where she could possibly be with some friends of hers that he barely knows.

[quote]Don also spoke quite fondly of Adnan in a letter which is weird. Why would you say kind words toward your girlfriend's killer?

Obviously because Don and Adnan had a thing going!

[quote]It also doesn't make sense that you wouldn't care enough about her to try to contact her once... but you spend some of your time talking to her friends about where she might possibly be.

OMG, that's exactly what you do if you're wondering what happened to one of the girls you're having decent sex with but don't want to get pinned for something you didn't do just because you're the current, older "boyfriend." You're just not sufficiently able to get into a scumbag pussyhound's head.

R145, you're a woman who's never watched porn, surely. "Barely legal" means 18. It doesn't mean "not yet legal. "It means "just old enough to be legal. "🤣

All of the people involved in this are shitty

There are a lot of naive women in love with the murderer. They're totally unable to see it from a guy's point of view.

But then, that's a thing.

He's such a phony scumbag entitled fratboy bullshitshitter. I'd almost rather have an overt asshole than a smug phony who's getting away with some serious scamming.

Uh sure...

[quote] He's not being granted another trial though which is unfair considering he wasn't found guilty beyond reasonable doubt.

R104, the jury found him guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.

R153 = clueless frau.

Your husband's cheating on you and you have no clue. Sad.

I think it's also interesting that we're supposed to believe Jay's stories... even though they keep changing.

He's known to lie but we're supposed to accept that what he says about Adnan isn't a lie. Yes, all the other things he says are lies but not the things he says about this other thing.

And why does his story keep changing even to this day?

He's either more involved than he says he is or he's not as involved as he says he is. Which is it?

Uh.. sure.

Just total, normal, pusshound behavior... like falsifying an alibi!

R127 -- link please.

And people back then didn't have enough knowledge about cell towers data. That's why the culprit forgot to turn off his mobile while carrying on the murder.

Glad the whole thing is over. Silly nonsense conjured up by two famewhores, abetted by gullible fraus.

The State never denied his requests to test the DNA. As far as we know Adnan never made a request. In fact, we know the Virginia Innocence Project had a DNA petition prepared and his team decided against filing it.

Jay admitted he made up the story about Adnan showing him Hae's body in the trunk of her car at the Best Buy parking lot.

He said the police told him to say Best Buy because the cell tower pinged near Best Buy. The whole state's case was based on faulty phone records

r138 They tested the burial scene. Nothing on Haes body came up conclusive other than a few hits on Haes DNA. There was some garbage near the body and there was a cable wire that had unidentified female DNA but I doubt that means anything. My point is they will paint this in the doc as if this is earth shattering information. In fact Rabia literally hinted episode 4 will SHATTER you. The DNA not only doesnt help him it does nothing one way or the other. The DNA came back either non existant or inconclusive all together. Rabia and his attorney are basically acting as if this exonerates Adnan which is ludicrous. If it exonerates Adnan it exonerates the entire human race.

R162 Bear with me because maybe i'm missing something, but if there's no DNA evidence of his on the body or site (and the cell tower records proves incorrect and inconclusive), then that *does* help him, no? Because it means there's nothing specifically linking him to the crime/scene.

Except that people think he did it.

It's inconclusive, that's what happens with shitty DNA technology, same thing with the Darlie Routier thing, they retested or tested some old DNA and it came up inconclusive. It doesn't confirm or deny his presence there. They never tested it before, they never needed to when they had a conviction and Adnan never wanted them to.

[quote]Glad the whole thing is over. Silly nonsense conjured up by two famewhores, abetted by gullible fraus.

Way to ruin a thread with your fucking frau bullshit. Fuck off.

Of course A killed her. Plus keep in mind he 's of Pakistani origin and he has close family in Pakistan where Honor Killings are .fairly common.

He was enraged that a lowly female would dishonor him by dumping him.

Fucking alt-right idiots going on about honor killings. Can no thread be free of you losers?

Captain of the football team, American party boy who skips Ramadan and steals from the mosque is into 'honor killings'? You dumb xenophobes. He didn't even want his parents knowing about dating an Asian girl, why would he kill her for some honor? Lol.

R164 well if it's inconclusive and "doesn't confirm or deny his presence there", then isn't that more reason that he shouldn't have been convicted? I mean if they can't put him at the scene of the crime, and there's no physical evidence....

R165, you're haven't said I'm wrong. And you're a frau.

The lack of DNA evidence is significant because the whole case rested on Adnan fighting and strangling her to death in her car, dumping her in the trunk, and burying her in the park with the help of Jay.

No Adnan or Jay prints on Hae's steering wheel yet they supposedly drove her car after she died?

Now, we find out Jay was fed the Best Buy location from police and lied about that.

Autopsy specialists say Hae's injuries don't seem consistent with a person who died in a car

It's over, people. Koenig and all the other chicks in love with this guy are out of luck. He's not getting out to bone them. He murdered that poor girl.

[quote] He murdered that poor girl.

Maybe, maybe not. That's the point. We know shockingly little about what happened to Hae.

R172, the jury decided he murdered her. They saw much more, up close, than the general public. They decided that he's guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. That's not nothing.

It's OVAH.

I think he did. But he deserves a new trial. Jay's testimony is garbage.

[quote]the jury decided he murdered her. They saw much more, up close, than the general public. They decided that he's guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.

You are an odd bird. Who cares what the jury said? I never do, they are just random people from the off the street, often of questionable intelligence. We have a long list of cases where we know the jury got it wrong.

And we know exactly what the jury heard, it's a matter of record.

I'm not even some Adnan must be innocent person, I honestly don't know, but you worship of the very flawed justice system is quite strange.

R175, you're not a lawyer, I take it. A trial court's judge or jury's findings of fact are almost unquestioned by lawyers.

R58 in Islam it is permissible for a muslim man to marry a christian or jewish woman but not the other way. Similiar to Jews but they have a stricter way of doing it.

Rabia's house is pretty nice, but it's in the Baltimore suburbs, so whatever.

Her Acura is a midrange model.

Her third baby is about the only really expensive thing that her Adnan gigs have afforded her.

She's in it because he's family essentially, and she's inclined to be outspoken.

[quote] A trial court's judge or jury's findings of fact are almost unquestioned by lawyers.

Yes, that is why there is no such thing as appellate courts, people never question what happened in the lower courts. It is hard to overturn a jury verdict, but it happens, as you obviously know, their word is not god.

I guess you think OJ and Casey Anthony are innocent.

R179, appellate courts don't address findings of fact, dummy.

...Did I say they did? "People never question what happened in the lower courts", I choose those words for a reason.

I can't believe the argument you are attempting to have is a jury said something, so it must be true. I see a lot of dumb shit on the internet, but this is a new one for me.

Anyway, I'm not going to derail this thread further, seeing two people derail a thread with pointless squabble is no fun to anyone else.

The significant part of the story based on religion is that Ramadan was in January that year which means Adnan would've been absent at sundown (around 5pm-6pm in January) to "eat, pray,and break his fast" with family.

This is the same guy who went over to Jen's to smoke weed right after so he was hardly a religious zealot prone to honor killing. If he killed Hae, it was over jealous rage not some sort of religious honor killing. Adnan didn't seem to have any problem with sinning

If I were on his jury knowing all I know now, there is no way I would convict him.

That said, I'm pretty sure he did it. The police clearly engaged in fuckery with Jay. Drawing out the testimony from him they needed for a conviction. You can't do that. For that ALONE I would let Adnan out of prison today. And let it be on the scumbag detective's head that because of his corner cutting and lies, Adnan walks.

Seriously, who else would have killed her? This is textbook- and there is a lot of circumstantial evidence. He was a narcissistic POS who was jealous bc she broke it off w him for another guy.

R184 Why is this so hard for you? That's not how the legal system works.

You can't convict someone to life in prison because 'who else would have done it?'. This is NOT textbook. Certainly not any textbook a law student should be following. I don't think people realise how ridiculous they sound with this. Even the circumstantial evidence is flimsy at best. Being a "narcissistic POS who was jealous" may be true, but it is not prosecutable.

I agree. Without Jay's suspect at best testimony, there is nothing. Yes, there are a few facts that look bad, but not nearly enough to convict.

Again, I think the likelihood of his guilt is high. But it doesn't come near being beyond a reasonable doubt. He does not belong in prison.

The HBO doc was directed by Amy Berg, who's West Memphis Three doc was responsible for them leaving prison. This case was no where near as cut and dried as the WM3 case.

It put Berg in a tough situation. I believe she wanted to go where the evidence led, but with Rabia as the producer, I think her hands were tied in terms of fully presenting both sides.

You can think Adnan's guilty, but there was never enough evidence to convict.

Life in prison plus 30 years with no DNA evidence or any evidence besides a dodgy witness is insane.

R185, first of all-whether you know it or NOT..he WAS CONVICTED. Try researching the circumstantial evidence they had (and yes, it is good enough. The only other evidence available would be video). Serial hid or forgot or decided against a lot of incriminating facts in this case. Again, go research it.

Ya, he was a narcissistic pig who was jealous, who lured her into her car, who killed her, who forgot what he did that day, who had a cell phone pinging in the area of her grave. Ya. He did it. And, YA he was convicted. Bye.

R188 Wow... spoken like a true Harvard law graduate.

The key supporting evidence in the prosecution's argument are cell phone pings, which in the company's own words were completely unreliable for incoming calls. And now Jay says their burial didn't even happen in that supposed timeline anyway.

The case is a mess.

Then I guess he should have taken that fucking plea deal r187, too bad assholes like Rabia had him believing his own hype. Also, the thread title is "did Adnan murder his girlfriend"? not did he get a fair trial, etc. Everyone seems so comfortable saying "well yeah he most likely did it but..." there's not buts, he fucking did it, the right man is in prison. If that were your loved one killed I don't think you would be putting such a fine point on things.

No.

She committed suicide.

Who else would have done it?

I dunno. Who comes up with two fake alibis and has it approved by both their moms?

Saying "who else would have done it?" is ridiculous. There's never only just one person who might do something.

And that isn't to say that A isn't guilty. It's to say that A isn't the only one who could have.

I didn't realize that Jay said the police fed him the Best Buy thing.

Why is he admitting this now?

And again, so he lied about that, but we are to believe he's not lying about everything else?

I still can't get over how this guy willingly let some guy kill another person, then helped bury the body, all while acting like it was nothing... and then gets indignant when you question if he's telling the truth.

R189, so funny you say that. Ok, not.

You could stop with "A is guilty" I don't get why you guys have to go on and on with this conjecture, I mean, I guess OJ could have done it too, but he didn't and neither did Robert Blake. This isn't a devil's advocate thing, the question was whether you think he did it, you do? Cool, then that's that.

Since you feel that way... I don't get then why you feel the need to participate then. Cool, then that's that.

[quote] Everyone seems so comfortable saying "well yeah he most likely did it but..." there's not buts, he fucking did it, the right man is in prison.

Guilty or not, everyone has the right to a fair trial and Adnan did not get one, not to mention that the investigation was very flawed.

The courts of Maryland have concluded that he got a fair trial.

R199 And the Central Park Five raped that girl. And OJ didn't kill Nicole. I guess nobody did, since that's still unsolved!! The legal system is always fair and just!!!!

Come on. The Baltimore police couldn't catch a cold, and the courts have been historically poor in their decision making.

I trust Maryland. It's a blue state.

R191 you're kind of an idiot.

Gross misconduct by the police regarding the testimony of Jay Wilds is the main issue. Because if you, or a loved one of yours were ever accused of something you didn't do, you better DAMN WELL hope the jury takes the phrase reasonable doubt to heart, and any misconduct by the police does not result in getting you convicted, but gets the case thrown out.

I don't know Adnan personally, but ALL OF US have a vested interest in making sure he got a fair trial.

You are very short sighted.

Baltimore police are notoriously corrupt and incompetent. The city is currently on its 5th (!!!) police commissioner since just 2015, and also currently the mayor is in the middle of a corruption scandal that is probably going to end her career.

This is news to no one that watched The Wire.

[quote] I don't know Adnan personally, but ALL OF US have a vested interest in making sure he got a fair trial.

What is that "vested" (personal, typically for financial gain) interest?

Fuck off r202, the question is did he do it? The answer is yes. I don't understand how you are all so comfortable throwing a black guy under the bus. I have no vested interest in this and Rabia is only doing this for money, she didn't even fucking know him until after he was in prison, they weren't old family friends or any of that nonsense.

Is Rabia's mansion 4500 square feet? I read that somewhere - she was showing it off to some local glossy rag.

"He has spent 17 Ramadans in jail. That is how we Muslims measure time, not with years." That’s what happens when you spend that first Ramadan murdering someone.

I have a feeling there are some shitty shoes in this thread.

R208, you're an old-timer, I take it. No one cares about that weird bitch — or believes she exists.

I believe she exists, bu I don't think she posts here anymore, and the people who are sure they see signs of her everywhere are fucking tiresome.

Yes, "Poo Shoes" is a real poster of course, any real DLer knows of D@vida, but the tireless accusations of her everywhere get old. There was a while some poster(s?) saw Poo Shoes around every corner, I got accused of being her a few times, and many others did as well.

Why did Don have a faked time card?

He was not working on January 13th.

R212, I need more proof that the time card was fake. I need the police files.

Talking to itself while wearing shitty shoes.

Ugh, R214. Lame. Blocked.

R213, I posted some of the police notes in R125.

That link goes in to detail over how the time cards were forged. Two different timecards were sent to the prosecutor and Adnan's defense lawyer Gutierrez. He was scheduled off on Jan 13th but claims he worked at another location (Hunt Valley LensCrafters). He was not paid overtime for that day however.

It doesn't necessarily mean Don is guilty. Perhaps he was nervous when he got questioned by police about so he went back to edit his time sheet with help from his mom.

Don’s alibi was that he had been at work on the day of Hae’s murder. Although he usually worked at the LensCrafters in Owings Mills, Don said that on January 13, 1999 he was working at a different store, in Hunt Valley. However, the police did not speak to a single person from the Hunt Valley store, nor did they obtain any employment records that could confirm his alibi. Instead, the police asked a single employee from the Owings Mills Mall location whether Don had worked at Hunt Valley that day, and although she stated that he had, her source for that information may have been Don himself.

Nothing more was done to investigate Don’s alibi until September 1999, when Adnan’s defense attorney filed a subpoena under seal requesting that LensCrafters produce all employment records for Don from the relevant time period. On October 4, 1999, LensCrafters produced records that showed Don had not worked on January 13, 1999.

Thereafter, Prosecutor Kevin Urick had a phone conversation with the LensCrafters legal department. Although the defense’s ex parte subpoena had been filed under seal, he somehow learned of it and obtained his own copies of the documents that LensCrafters had produced to the defense. Two days later, following Urick’s phone conversation with the LensCrafters legal department, LensCrafters suddenly found an “additional time keeping record” that showed Don had, in fact, worked on January 13th.

However, in a separate cover letter issued directly to Urick (and which LensCrafters did not include in its production to Gutierrez), LensCrafters went out of its way to notify Urick that the “General Manager on 1/13/99” was “also Donald’s mother” (emphasis in original). Moreover, a review of the newly-discovered timecard shows that there are several oddities that call its authenticity into question.

What's Don's motivation again? Did she dump him?

On the night that Hae’s family filed a missing persons report, Officer Adcock had a phone conversation with Don at around 1:30 a.m. His report, written at the end of his shift on January 14th, provided the following:

I spoke to victim Lee’s boyfriend [Don]. [Don] advised he does not know the whereabouts of Ms. Lee. [Don] advised that he talked to Ms. Lee last on 1/12/99.

It should be noted that I spoke to [Don] on 1/14/99.

Another Baltimore County officer spoke to Don on January 14th, presumably later in the day, and reported the following:

The victim’s boyfriend [Don] [ ]advised he has not seen the victim since 1/12/99. Harford County sheriff was requested to check the area surrounding [Don’s street] for the victim and or her vehicle. At this time, with negative results.

Don did not mention to either officer that he had been at work that day, nor did he mention that he and Hae had made plans to meet up after Hae’s shift at LensCrafters. The first mention of any alibi for Don came a little over a week later, when Detective O’Shea spoke to him over the phone.

R167. I'm a guy, you fucking idiot, and one who worked in Islamabad on various UN missions. You on the other hand are a common know-nothing American imbecile. Men kill women in Pakistan quite freely in the name of honor and suffer no consequences.

Yes, block. I have a feeling lots of people do that to you.

One of the new insights led documentarians to Donald “Don” Clinedinst, the boyfriend of Lee at the time of her death. Then-22-year-old Clinedinst met high school senior Lee through their mutual employment at LensCrafters. He spent the evening with Lee the night before she went missing, and they had plans to see each other the following evening, according to the docu-series. However, despite the fact significant others often receive lots of attention in murder cases, Clinedinst walked free near the beginning of the Lee investigation.

"They didn’t take any fingerprints from him, they didn’t take hair samples from him, they didn’t take DNA from him … even though the hair found on Hae’s body didn’t match Adnan’s," Rabia Chaudry, an attorney and public advocate of her incarcerated friend Syed, told Oxygen.com. "They didn’t think, ‘Maybe we should check the boyfriend.’"

I thought Don's alibi was that he was working the morning shift at one LensCrafters (and the time card was signed off by his manager, his mom) and that he had picked up a second shift at another location (conveniently during the time of Hae's murder) and provided a time card for that location - signed off on the manager of that store --- who it later turned out was his Step-Mother.

Clinedinst’s alibi appeared to be solid at first. Clinedinst claimed to have been at work that day at the Hunt Valley location for LensCrafters. The manager confirmed he was at work, however, they had no direct contact with Clinedinst on that day.

Two facts since then have emerged, perhaps casting doubt on the reliability of Clinedinst’s alibi.

“His alibi was really his mom,” Chaudry said in the docu-series, referring to the identity of the manager of the Hunt Valley branch.

Chaudry told Oxygen.com that police honed in on Syed "as a suspect very early on," leading them to neglect Clinedinst as a suspect. "The county detective talked to Don’s mother not realizing that the alibi was actually not firm. He didn’t even have time sheets, nothing. He took the manager at her word that he was at work."

When the time sheets were produced, it was confirmed that Clinedinst’s mother was the general manager for the branch he claimed to go to, and police had not performed any follow-up interviews with employees from that location who could possibly vouch for his presence.

“Would a mother lie for him? Sure,” Det. Darryl Massey said in the docuseries. “He could have caught equal attention that the defendant did, but he didn't have any phone calls come in about him.”

Massey claimed in the series that they had gotten a phone tip telling them to look into the ex-boyfriend: Syed.

Chaudry points out another potential red flag: On the night of Jan 13, 1999, the night Lee went missing, police could not get ahold of Clinedinst over the phone until 1:30 a.m. He claimed to have gotten home around 7 p.m. that day.

“That’s like a big gap. Where was he? What was he doing the whole time?” Chaudry questioned in the docu-series. “Why didn’t he try to contact her or call the police back?”

But Chaudry also noted racial bias likely played a role in why they focused so quickly on Syed instead of Clinedinst: In fact, she explained there's even a pretrial memo among the original police documents that suggests Muslim "honor killing" as a possible motive.

The finale of the HBO series cast further doubt on the authenticity of Clinedinst’s time cards, which served as his unofficial alibi. First, Thomas Precht, a lab manager at Lenscrafters who’s been with the company for 30 years, suggested to private investigators that it was unusual for Clinedinst to be working at a different location that day in the first place, when the usual lab manager there had not called in sick. Precht also confirmed that it’s technically possible for time cards to be fabricated, as long as the culprit knows the password for the person for whom they’re trying to create what investigators dubbed a “phantom shift.” He stated that it is possible to do so without leaving behind any evidence of tampering.

Another Lenscrafter employee, this one a man known only as “S.H.” and who worked with Clinedinst at the Hunt Valley location, recalled the day that Clinedinst told him and another co-worker that Lee had gone missing. Clinedinst’s hands had “scratch marks and bandages going around up towards his wrists and the scratches were down towards his knuckles,” S.H. said during a phone interview with investigators.

[quote[ Men kill women in Pakistan quite freely in the name of honor and suffer no consequences.

No one said they don't, idiot. The point is that there is no reason to think that Adnan Syed, a resident of Baltimore, Maryland, USA, not Pakistan, who lived the life of a fairly typical American teen and did not seem to take his religion very seriously, would decide to commit an honor killing. He may very well have killed Hae Min, but if so, it was most likely for the mundane and non-religious reasons of anger and jealousy that she had dumped him and found a new boyfriend.

S.H., who said that he remembers Clinedinst’s alleged hand wounds “clear as day,” also said that Clinedinst claimed that he’d gotten the injuries while doing work on his car.

Investigators featured in the HBO doc have not been able to verify S.H.’s version of events. His identity was not revealed either, and he did not appear on camera. So where is Clinedinst now? Filmmakers found him at his new home in North Carolina in 2017. He told them he was disabled, and that he has been attending physical therapy since age 23, about a year after the death of his then-girlfriend. Director Amy Berg said in a press tour in Pasadena, California that “his health is failing” and that was the reason Clinedinst declined having further involvement in the film.

“My next 12 years is basically making sure that my wife and kids are taken care of. Not worrying about whether anybody believes my alibi,” Clinedinst told the filmmakers of "The Case Against Adnan Syed."

[quote]“That’s like a big gap. Where was he? What was he doing the whole time?”

Was it enough time to say... bury a body?

R231, yes. Actually that would fit with what the autopsy expert said that the Leakin Park burial was around midnight not 7pm like the state claims.

Someone remind me, what was the actual physical evidence they had that Adnan did it?

Another damning question I have: is how exactly was Hae planning to meet Don after school if he was at work from 9-6 the whole day at another store location like he claims in his time sheet ?

He was clearly off that afternoon. He's the last person she would have been with according to her friends. The state says Hae died at 2:36 near Best Buy. Now, we find out from Jay there was no Best Buy in this story. He was coached to lie by police

Will Don confess and clear his conscience before he dies?

He also called Adnan a good guy. Strange thing to call your girlfriend's murderer. Why doesn't he hate Adnan's guts?

Nobody with any sense would bury a dead body in A Baltimore park at 7pm or 8pm. Too risky. There are still people outside at that hour (joggers, dogwalkers).

A midnight burial sounds more realistic.

But why would Hae have gone to go see Don after school if she had to pick up her little cousin? Apparently that's not something she was known to be irresponsible about.

Do they actually even know for sure that Hae was in school at 2pm?

The only reason they said she was buried at that time was because the cell tower pinged between 6-7. They created that narrative about the burial to fit the pings.

Now we find out wherever he said he actual was at that time, smoking dope at some girl's house, it used the same cell phone tower so it's quite possible that that was where he actually was.

According to the autopsy, they said it was more likely she was buried around midnight. Where do the cell phone records indicate Adnan was at that time?

He was burying me r238!

Hae was at school at 2pm. School let out at 2:15pm. She told her friends she was on her way to meet with Don before she had to pick up her little cousin at 3:30.

She was never late picking up her cousin so when she didn't show up that afternoon, that's when alarms went off.

The Baltimore PD contacted Don and he didn't call them back until 1:30am. He told police he last time he saw Hae was the night before (1/12). He didn't tell them he was at work that day.

The question is why would Hae tell friends she was on her way to see Don if he was working that day?

Did her friends say she was going to meet Don?

I thought all her friends recalled that Adnan had asked for a ride and Hae said she couldn't do it because she had to pick up her cousin.

Why doesn't Don sue Rabia and HBO for defamation and slander? He has a very good case. The documentary made him seem guilty.

My only problem with the Don theory is Jen.

Jen says Jay told her Hae died and Adnan killed her.

Jen and Jay were not questioned together. What would Jen gain by lying? Jay was compromised because he sold drugs so we know he was more exploitable as a police asset. But Jen?

Why exactly would she lie?

I'm not going to take anything Rabia says as necessarily true. Absolutely not. She's a liar (Google Adnan Rabia lies) and surprisingly imprecise when it comes to speaking and writing about things that actually matter, for an attorney.

The police will look to the current boyfriend. I'm sure they looked into it. In the end, they prosecuted the jilted ex-boyfriend because they had probable cause. They didn't have probable cause with Don.

R242, he's dead. Dead people can't sue for defamation, which includes libel and slander. And no, their estates can't sue, either.

R205 how am I throwing a black guy under the bus? I'm not saying he did it, or that should be arrested. I'm not even blaming him. I blame the police.

You've exposed yourself as being full of shit by trying to use junior high debate club tactics to score rhetorical points.

I don't care about who is what color or what religion. I care about due process and fairness.

Don was actually the first suspect.

Adnan came on the radar when the police got an anonymous tip to investigate the ex bf Adnan

R243, they weren't questioned together but she didn't go in to talk to the Police right away. She only went when Jay told her to go, presumably after Jay could have already made a deal with the Police.

No idea what was in it for her if that's what happened. But again, she's also a shady character who can't be trusted because in whatever their story is, she is someone who happily agreed to help someone cover up a murder, and then went about her day like it was no big deal.

[quote] [R242], he's dead.

No, Don Clinedinst is not dead.

What black guy are you supposedly throwing under the bus?

The guy who happily allowed a teenage girl to get murdered and helped bury the body in exchange for getting to use a cell phone for a day?

Seriously r249? "Allowing" someone to get murdered is not the same as fucking murdering them. Adnan is guilty and is where he should be. I bet Rabia is happy that she now has a new Patreon account to raise even more money for him.

[quote]Don was actually the first suspect.

And yet they never brought him in for questioning or fingerprinted him, right?

R244, Don was the last person with Hae. Hae was on her way to meet him when she disappeared.

Maybe he was upset she still had feelings for Adnan. The doc said Don was cheated on by two ex girlfriends. Maybe he got angry and strangled her to death.

The Baltimore police had just as much details to pin this on Don if they wanted to. They chose thedetails that pin this on Adnan. When police choose to zero in on a primary suspect, they have to cherrpick the evidence that's most favorable and that's what they did with Adnan. To the point that a Best Buy murder scene was completely fabricated based on cell tower pings

[quote]Seriously [R249]? "Allowing" someone to get murdered is not the same as fucking murdering them.

Uh... you know someone is going to murder someone and you agree to help them do it. Yes, it is the same as murdering them.

Perhaps the police even convinced Jay that Adnan really did do it and that he was connected to some scary people from Pakistan.

What was the physical evidence against Adnan again?

So you're saying Jay understood that it was an "Honor Killing," right?

R256, yes.

It's possible. Being a snitch or working with police to take down a friend isn't well regarded a troll all in urban areas. Jay was a black man from Baltimore. He likely didn't trust working with the police at first so the police probably convinced Jay that it was an honor killing, they have absolute evidence Adnan killed Hae, and Adnan had connections to scary Muslim radicals from Pakistan.

There was talk earlier of honor killing and Pakistan. I think Jay genuinely trusted cooperating with police because he really feels Adnan did kill Hae.

In exchange for being the state's witness in this case, he'd get immunity for his drug dealing activity .

I just cannot get into this and I love true crime. The waters are too muddy and the focus on Adnan is too much. I do not understand why the documentary didn't start with the crime scene and forensic evidence like every other crime story. How are we supposed to speculate on what happened when we don't know anything about her murder? or how she was found? I had to stop watching it, it was very annoying if you have no knowledge of the crime itself.

Jay was doing a bunch of weird shit with Adnan around the time of Hae's murder. Jen's testimony is key. They showed up at her house, with Adnan saying nothing, waiting for a phone call, etc.

That aside, Jay's lies are all related to his fear of being an accessory after the fact. He hems and haws, and is susceptible to pressure in interrogation, because he didn't know how to maneuver to minimize his involvement and protect himself.

He was an accessory after the fact, and got an informal deal to testify against Adnan.

It's pretty typical, actually. Accessories after the fact commonly lie to minimize their involvement, and then when they realize the cops know that they're involved, they go back and forth, trying to calibrate just how much to admit at each point that the cops reveal more what they know about the accessory's involvement.

This is such a typical case it's amazing it became much of anything. But this and Making a Murderer show that you can take any typically open-and-shut case (by actual on-the-ground criminal apprehension and prosecution standards) that involves an accessory, and just raise the volume on the accessory's predictable vacillations, and turn those into "serious issues with the prosecution's case."

Jen is more important than Jay, in a way, because she corroborates the core of Jay's testimony: Jay told her that Adnan killed Hae. It's admissible nonhearsay because it's a "prior consistent statement" and Jay was available at trial, testified, and was subject to cross. The jury heard that, it corroborated Jay's in-court testimony.

I want to hear what other prosecutors and criminal defense attorneys who aren't making money off this actually think.

The big scam is that Koenig and Rabia squeezed fame and a ton of money out of this BS rehash of a basic-as-fuck case. True crime people should be ashamed of making money off cases like this, making everyone think criminal prosecutions all but require video and DNA evidence to be fair.

They REALLY need to test Don's DNA. Does his family still have connections to the corrupt Baltimore P.D.? I remember rumors about that years ago.

[quote]I had to stop watching it, it was very annoying if you have no knowledge of the crime itself.

I agree -- I thought the doc was very badly structured.

[Quote]What was the physical evidence against Adnan again?

None. There was no physical evidence linking Adnan to the murder that was introduced at trial.

This case was prosecuted with witness testimony and cell phone pings.

The police needed Jay. Without Jay's cooperation, there was no way they'd get Adnan. We can't believe a word Jay Wilds has said about this case since he's admitted to being coached by police. His entire testimony should've been thrown out.

I think the police made up its mind Adnan was guilty and that was that. This is the problem with law enforcement today: playing judge and jury. There is always pressure on the cops to settle on one primary person of interest/ suspect. This narrow scope/singular focus is the problem. It causes tunnel vision. You can overlook alot when you're just focused on one thing.

The only question left is Jen. Why would Jen lie? Jen seems so loyal to Jay. You would think she was the girlfriend instead of Stephanie. What would she get from lying?

Jay was not an accessory after the fact.

According to Jay, Adnan told him he was planning to kill Hae BEFORE Hae was killed. Per his own statements he agreed with the plan and went along with meeting him after he killed her and helping to bury the body (which he first denied having anything to do with).

So in someone's theory, the police convinced Jay it was an "honor killing," so it justifies Jay lying and saying he was actually involved and that Adnan told him he did it?

R264, the police probably told Jay to say that this was premeditated by Adnan.

Without that, Adnan would only be charged with manslaughter or second degree. First degree murder requires planning

R266, No, I know what you're saying. I'm saying in terms of those who believe Jay's stories and don't believe the police got him to make up any of the stories.

People who are 100% certain Adnan did it base that knowledge on Jay's testimony... but don't seem to have any issues with his inconsistencies or the fact that if he is telling the truth, HE ALLOWED A GIRL TO GET MURDERED, helped with it, and acted like it was a night out eating pizza.

Why didn't the corrupt, racist, cops just arrest Jay and call it a night? Also, Rabia as always, is charming and professional in her shit talking about Kevi Thiru. She must think that Adnan will throw a mercy fuck her way if he gets out, he won't.

Don hit on Hae's best friend after she died.

Debbie Warren, a former Woodlawn student and close friend of Hae's, appeared to be the last person to see her at school on the day that she disappeared. In episode one, she described Hae walking down the steps towards her car.

According to Debbie, "she was in a rush" and was "intending to pick up her cousin directly after leaving, and going to see Don".

The police disagree. Detective Darryl Massey, formerly of the Baltimore police, stated that Don was looked at, but cited the alleged anonymous phone call (pointing at Adnan as a suspect) as the reason why the investigation moved in a direction away from him.

At the time of the investigation, Debbie told police that she'd contacted Don to see if he knew anything.

"He was eager to give me his information and talk to me and everything," she recalled in the documentary. "He was very open."

Debbie said that she and Don ended up talking on the phone in a conversation that lasted seven hours.

She also told the filmmakers that Don had visited her during spring break, while she was staying with her sister. Debbie claimed that he had "expressed romantic interest" at that time, which she described as "kind of odd". Debbie eventually told him that she would not reciprocate.

Someone tell me again what the evidence against Adnan was again? What did the state submit?

A Rabia made doc holds no water. I bet anyone who said Don was normal and didn't hit on them would not make the cut.

The ratings are terrible.

HBO ratings are rarely high

Correct me if I'm wrong - I didn't watch the doc, and I'm going off of years old memories of Serial. But my recollection is that Serial always portrayed Don as a casual relationship. They had dated a few times, but weren't necessarily heavily involved. Is that not right?

Not that it proves guilt/innocence, but would seem to be important in determining motive.

the real hero of the story is former teenage drug dealer and current burnout Jen Pusateri

Re: Rabia Chaudry

My take on Adnan is that he might have some involvement, but I don't know that he killed Hae. The key phrase here is *I don't know*. No one knows for certain, including everyone posting in this thread, except for Adnan and Hae's killer(s), if it's not Adnan.

What's always rubbed me the wrong way about Rabia is her insistence that Adnan is innocent. If you want to suggest he didn't get a fair trial, fine. That you approached Sarah Koenig and asked her to look at the case, fine. But to go on and on about Adnan's innocence? She does not know. She has even said she didn't really know Adnan well before this; he was friends with her brother. So what has her absolutely convinced that Adnan did not commit the crime? Isn't there still a 1% chance he did? And why has no one (outside of posters here or on Reddit) called her out on this fact? She's often portrayed as some hero - but what if Adnan did murder Hae? What does that make Rabia?

Someone upthread mentioned that she's lied throughout this investigation, but I haven't found those instances. But I did find an instance where she was completely unwilling to have a discussion on her pro-Adnan commentary.

I think Rabia has a crush on Adnan. It's so obvious.

She probably dreams that Adnan will one day be free due to her hard work and he will fall in love and marry her for all her devoted support. I don't think he'd touch her with a 10 foot pole personally

A viewed Hae as a ho after she took up with someone else. Ho's gotta die.

Hae said that Adnan was possessive in her diary. She said would play mind games and that she had changed everything about herself to make him happy.

Asia's second alibi letter is dated only a day after her first alibi letter, yet contains details about the crime that had not been released to the public. Since I wrote this list, the Asia alibi has been completely discredited, mostly by her own hand. In her police interview Nisha says the damning Adnan and Jay call occurred "a day or two after Adnan got the phone" making it highly unlikely it occurred any day other than the 13th. Adnan's story about asking Hae for a ride has changed multiple times. At first he told Officer Adcock that he was detained and Hae got tired of waiting; but Adnan has never explained what detained him, how he knew Hae got tired of waiting, or where they were planning to meet. Later he told another Officer that he drives his car to school, so he would not have asked for a ride. He also inquired if a police report would be made re: his statements. In Serial, he says he would never ask Hae for a ride after school on any day due to her extreme time constraint; this is a lie. In fact, Hae had an hour before she needed to pick up her cousin, and had given Adnan a ride after school only the week before. Witnesses said it wasn't unusual for Adnan to drive Hae's car after school.

As late as October, Adnan had not come clean to his own lawyer regarding the 'Cathy' visit. He claimed to have been in the car when Adcock called and left 'Cathy' out of his narrative completely. Hae once asked a teacher at Woodlawn to help her hide from Adnan. At a party a day or two after Hae went missing, Adnan said nothing about her disappearance to his friends. At another party after Hae went missing, he was asked about her and responded with "We broke up", rather than mention her disappearance, which was not widespread news yet.

Adnan and his legal team have decided to not pursue DNA testing.

A teacher at Woodlawn said Adnan once referred to Leakin Park as a good place to dump a body. Later, after Hae's disappearance, another teacher noted that Adnan "played dumb" about Leakin Park's reputation.

Adnan claimed in Serial to have decided to give the car to Jay in second period when he gave Stephanie the birthday gift; contradicting witnesses who heard him ask Hae for a ride prior to this, when his car was still in the parking lot. Adnan has never explained why he didn't simply tell Jay he needed his car back by the time class let out.

Witnesses heard Adnan say he needed a ride to the shop; or that his brother had his car. Not that he was planning to loan it to Jay.

Jay lived across from a mall; there was no need for Adnan to loan his car to Jay to buy Stephanie a birthday gift.

Stephanie didn't find out Hae was missing for over a week, despite being best friends with Adnan. When she found out, Adnan said he didn't know either; of course this is a lie. Adnan was one of the first to find out Hae had disappeared.

When Jay was being interviewed by the cops on 2/28, Stephanie called Adnan to ask if he knew why, since Adnan and Jay had been hanging out. Adnan immediately assumed it was about Hae, saying he was worried because the cops were talking to everyone but him. Why would an innocent Adnan assume Jay's police trouble had anything to do with him or Hae? According to Jay, Adnan threw out Hae's wallet containing her ID. Then, when her body was found, Adnan said to multiple people that it could not be Hae because "All Asians look alike".

Adnan gave conflicting accounts of his last conversation with Hae. He told Becky that Hae called him the night of the 12th hoping to reconcile; in reality, the phone records show he called her and she quickly let him go in order to return to her conversation with Don. Adnan told Inez his last conversation with Hae was a fight over prom.

Adnan, after skipping most his classes on the 13th, returns to last period with only 37 minutes remaining. He has already asked Hae for a ride immediately after. Jays prints were not in car.

above from Redditt.

And where did all that info come from on Reddit?

Dead @ R275.

I don't remember him ever saying it was a good place to bury a body lol. What teacher came out with that? Has that been verified?

If ppl are getting the info just from serial.......yeah, you wont get a lot of info. DYOR.

It's true that Sayed's legal team did not pursue DNA testing, but the prosecution did: last year it tested a dozen items from the crime scene, including blood and fingernail clippings. They did not find Sayed's DNA on any of the items; the only DNA that was present was that of the victim and an unknown woman.

Is that unknown woman Jen Pusateri?

The two detectives in this case have been accused in other cases of coercing false testimony against suspects from people through the use of threats and evidence tampering.

The murder of Hae Min Lee was investigated by Detectives William Ritz and Gregory MacGillivary. To date, four defendants who were convicted of murder pursuant to investigations by either Ritz or MacGillivary have been found to have been wrongfully convicted and released from prison.

Those defendants are Ezra Mable, Sabein Burgess, and Rodney Addison. As the civil complaint filed last week by Burgess aptly summarizes, the convictions in all three cases were the result of the Baltimore Police Department’s policies and practices of pursuing wrongful convictions through reliance on profoundly flawed investigations. In a race to clear murder cases, the Department cut corners and rushed to judgment.

The problems in the underlying investigations ranged from simple incompetence — such as failure to interview obvious witnesses or to properly preserve forensic evidence — to intentional distortions of the evidentiary record — such as the fabrication of witness reports. In each of these cases, the investigators’ tunnel vision led them to either ignore or avoid evidence that contradicted their chosen theory of the case, and to withhold any exculpatory evidence they accidentally stumbled upon. Moreover, in both the Mable and Burgess cases, allegations have been made of deliberate wrongdoing by police officers who prioritized clearing cases over identifying the actual perpetrators of the murders they were investigating. Improving the detectives’ numbers became a higher goal than identifying criminals and building solid cases against them.

As of May 2016, defendant Malcolm Bryant was also exonerated. Detective Ritz was also the lead investigator in that case.

Similarities Between the Investigation Into Hae’s Murder and the Mable, Burgess, and Addison Cases

The investigatory practices that were employed in the Mable, Burgess, and Addison cases are strongly reminiscent of those in the Hae Min Lee investigation. In each case, the police decided on a suspect on the basis of flimsy evidence and prior assumptions and then conducted an investigation aimed at proving that suspect guilty, even in the face of exculpatory evidence that should have alerted investigators to their errors.

Failing to Test DNA and other Trace Evidence

As highlighted in Mable’s civil complaint, the Baltimore Police Department regularly instructed the forensics lab not to test evidence that the police feared might “complicate” their investigation. This practice of failing to test seemingly relevant DNA evidence was also followed in the investigation into Hae’s murder. At the burial site in Leakin Park, investigators found a brandy bottle a mere 8 inches away from Hae’s body and a rope only 5 inches away. Despite the presence of human epithelial cells on the brandy bottle, the DNA was never tested. Similarly, although the rope was a potential murder weapon, the police ordered it held without testing. Later, that rope seems to have gone missing, as it failed to turn up during an evidence review, and it is unclear if it was ever located thereafter.

When a body is found in a wooded area that is isolated from foot traffic, and a rope and a liquor bottle are found within inches of that body, testing any DNA receovered from those items should have been common sense. Especially so in this case, as it did not involve a situation in which there was so much trash around the crime scene that police were unable to sort what was relevant from what was not. There is no record of any other trash found within 120 feet of the body; everything else collected from the Leakin Park crime scene was found along the roadside.

Although Urick — through the use of leading (and misleading) questions — tried to create the impression that the burial site was a trash-strewn rubbish heap, this is belied by the evidentiary record. The only pieces of trash in between the “no dumping” sign and the creek that are shown in the record or identified by any witness are the brandy bottle and the rope. There is no record of any non-organic materials anywhere in the vicinity of the body that were not collected either by the BPD (the bottle, rope) or the military team (trace evidence).

Any reasonable person who observed the crime scene should have concluded that there was a high probability that both the rope and the brandy bottle were related to Hae’s murder. And yet, in conjunction with State’s Attorney’s Office, Ritz and MacGillivary decided that the rope and brandy bottle — much like Dukes’ fingernails in the Burgess case — should not be tested, even though it was conclusively shown that DNA samples were present on at least one of the items, and possibly both

Why wouldn't Adnan let them test the DNA? Why did the Innocence Project quietly drop this case? Let's think about that; why would a group who gets off INNOCENT people decide to drop off a case? Also, I bet Adnan was breathing a huge sigh of relief that the DNA was so degraded and turned out inconclusive.

R291 What? The Innocence Project are an independent group. You are giving them too much importance here. And of course he was breathing a sigh of relief that he had no DNA on the body lol.... he's been in jail for a decade and a half. To find that your DNA wasn't there would come as a relief to *anyone*, innocent OR guilty. Of course it's a fucking relief.

I think the bigger question is why these police haven't been busted for picking out suspects at will, coaching testimonies, destroying evidence, and.... not actually INVESTIGATING. As someone posted above they have a history of this, and it was all over the Hae Min Lee case. If I were the Lee family I would be furious at the poor job they've done.

If Adnan ever gets released (and let's say for the sake of argument that he DID do it), then it's because of their shit-tastic unprofessionalism and corruption.

[Quote]Why wouldn't Adnan let them test the DNA

This is such a dumb talking point.

When you are trying to get a new trial, you have to show your strongest hand. The strongest argument they had was an ineffective counsel argument based on the cell phone pings not being reliable for incoming call and ignoring Asias letter. So that is what they based their request on.

What does the DNA testing prove? Now the testing has been done but no one who is convinced he is guilty cares that his DNA wasn't found on items from Haes burial. So it is was smart his team didnt try to avenue, because it doesnt seem to prove anything to people. Their argument they decided to go with instead did work, and that is why his conviction was overturned at first.

Confirmation bias. The police created evidence and did investigative work that would confirm their belief of Adnan as Hae's killer.

They ignored any evidence that was counter to their theory

FOUR defendants that these two detectives investigated were exonderated of murder charges.

It's been mentioned several times before that the jury convicted him "beyond a reasonable doubt," and some keep claiming that the jury had evidence that we aren't aware of.

Wouldn't it be available now? What was it?

And didn't one juror claim that she based her verdict on Jay's testimony? Which we now know his story has changed multiple times?

And for those who are adamant that Adnan did it, aren't you still concerned that 1) it's been proven that the cell tower info they were using, which they based their entire case on, proved to be faulty and 2) That Jay submitted false testimony?

Even if you think Adnan did it, I would think people would have the capacity to still be bothered by those two facts.

R297, don't forget Don's alibi being his mom

r293 Fuck off, it's not a dumb talking point at all. The fucking Innocence Project wants to take your case to exonerate you and you won't let them do the one thing that can? Yeah, whatever.

R298 you mean BOTH his alibis were from BOTH his moms.

R296, of course the jury didn't have extra evidence we know nothing about. The transcript of the trial and the evidence are all in the public record.

So you think Adnan has been exonerated now that the testing has been done and doesnt implicate him at all r299?

You can't have it both ways dear, it's why your argument doesnt work. You can't say testing was the most important thing and now say the testing doesn't prove anything.

No what I am saying is that he could have had the DNA tested by the Innocence Project and they would have gone to the mat for him, even more so now I bet, but his adamantly refusing to let them do so made them think he must be guilty, which he is. They would have pulled out all the stops for him but his refusal to do the testing made them quietly extricate themselves. Like that plea deal, I kind of almost feel bad for him now, no doubt assholes like Rabia are advising him and that is why he didn't take the deal.

Adnan was around Hae all the time, they were friends, and rode in Hae's car often. Hae even introduced Adnan to her new boyfriend Don. Don said he seemed relaxed and nice (strange for a boyfriend to refer to his girl's killer in fond terms).

Adnan and Hae even had sex in Hae's car. You can't blame him for not wanting to do a DNA test. That doesn't mean he's guilty. It's just too much of a risk. Even the smallest trace of DNA would've been seen as a marker of Adnan's guilt. Of course his defense lawyers were leery about doing that.

The prosecution requested DNA forensic tests anyway and Adnan's DNA or finger prints were found on Hae's dead body, underneath her fingernails, or on her throat even though she was strangled and beaten to death . No Adnan DNA found in the trunk of the car or steering wheel either.

He had the strongest motive to kill as the spurned ex but the evidence is nonexistent and all based on a lousy state's "witness" (Jay) who was coerced by cops and whose own DNA wasn't found on Hae's body or car despite his claims that he helped Adnan bury her body

*were not found

Was the anonymous caller saying to check out the ex bf Adnan Syed Don's mom too?

Okay so what is the evidence against Adnan that makes it completely clear he killed her beyond a reasonable doubt?

The phone pings?

He didn't have the phone with him the majority of the day and it has turned out that the phone records were faulty.

Jay's testimony?

Jay is known as a habitual liar, his story has changed constantly, and he has now said that the police told him to make up the story about Best Buy.

What is the other evidence?

The other evidence is Adnan's several phone calls to Hae the night before and his lack of alibi for 2-3pm.

Too bad no death penalty in Maryland for this POS.

It scares me that psychos like r309 supports the state killing people off incredibly flimsy evidence.

So many innocent people are wrongly killed via death penalty or given life sentences.

Being at the wrong place at the wrong time can easily make anyone a person of interest.

The police are incredibly corrupt when it comes to naming suspects. Shoddy forensic investigations, evidence planting, and coerced witness tampering are common.

Baltimore Police in particular are notorious for planting evidence.

Planting evidence means to establish proof of someone’s guilt by changing or adding false evidence to the scene of the crime. It is an illegal practice that can lead to the courts wrongfully convicting an innocent person. Police officers, the ones employed to protect and serve the people of Baltimore, might be the last people you’d expect to be guilty of planting evidence. Yet this is exactly what a recent video appears to catch on camera.

CBS News reports on a video that apparently shows, for the second time in one month, Baltimore police planting evidence at the scene of a crime.

The video comes from body camera footage from one of the officers on the scene, dated November 30th, 2016. It shows what looks like an officer planting drugs in a suspect’s vehicle, after stopping the individual for a suspected drug deal. A local defense attorney stated that to find the officers guilty of manufacturing evidence, all one would have to do is look at the video.

A similar case remains on trial, involving apparent body camera footage of a Baltimore officer hiding drugs in a suspect’s yard and later “discovering” them. The Baltimore Police Department has suspended the officer and is looking into his 53 active cases for other signs of manufactured evidence or corruption. These latest pieces of video evidence are causing many in Baltimore to wonder: just how common is it for police to plant evidence?

Unfortunately, it’s impossible to gauge just how often police officers plant evidence at crime scenes since no one is keeping track of this information. Police officers and law enforcement agencies are often the ones in charge of collecting this type of data, but of course they would not record instances of evidence planting. People have accused police officers of planting evidence for years – sometimes achieving justice, other times not. Thanks to officer body-camera footage, however, more evidence might surface of police officer misconduct.

I'm with R259.

The police documents reveal that Adnan’s story varies significantly from time to time. On the podcast, one of his main areas of defense is that he would not have requested a lift from Lee that afternoon as he knew she had to collect her cousin and would have been unavailable. Elsewhere in interviews documented, he said he and Lee would often meet up after school for sex. On the days she had to collect her cousin they would drive to Best Buy near school, have sex quickly and then collect her cousin and drop her home. This testimony is particularly damning as the presumed location of the murder is Best Buy.

Adnon is not a saint Jay is the one who put himself in by telling everyone that Adnan killed Hae,with his help (burying the body) Don's alibi was flimsy,but he is caucasian so of course Baltimore racist police gave him a pass. Adnon also admitted guilt (Adnon went to Jennifer's house acting suspicious )infront of Jay's lil white girlfriend (and pot customer ).... I don't get why Jennifer, Jay didn't catch conspiracy charges except that they snitched. ON ADNAN

Yep r312, evidence planting and similar type of crimes in the Baltimore Police has been documented over and over. These people who blindly trust in law enforcement seem to live in a make believe world.

So, for those of you that think he is innocent:

Who did it? Who would have motive to kill a girl that dropped her obsessed boyfriend, and moved on with another guy?

So Adnan's appeal was based on Asia McClain seeing him in library . McClain later told States Attorney's office she was pressured to write that by Adnan's family. In any event school let out at 2:15 due to bad weather coming

Leaving Adnan more then enough time to get to Best Buy ,meet Hae strangle her

Jenn Pulselrak sticks by her story an phone records support the time frame

Which is why Adnans appeal failed....

[Quote]Which is why Adnans appeal failed....

Adnan had his conviction overturned by the Baltimore circuit court, you known how rare it is that a defendant can get their conviction overturned? Yes that decision ended up getting overruled by Maryland's highest court but even so it was barely overruled, a 4-3 decision.

And their brief wasn't just about Asias letter, it was also heavily relied on the cell phone evidence that was used.

*Written on the back of a piece of paper in his notebook, Adnan wrote "I want to kill"

*Hae in her diary wrote about how controlling and possessive he was.

*His alibi, being in the library (he never said he was there and was surprised when he was told Asia M said he was- is now basically emerged as a lie.She admitted that she would lie for him, to a few people, and before she did.

*She was killed in the best buy parking lot (incoming phone call finds him there), this surmised by way of records,and Jay indicating so. He and Hae would have sex there.

*Jay told a friend that Adnan killed Hae, this before her body was discovered.He warned ppl to stay away from Adanan.

*Adnan changed his story many times in terms of his whereabouts after school that day.

Everything else the prosecution presented at trial – the words “I want to kill” written on the back of a piece of paper in Syed’s notebook; inconsistent claims that Syed asked Lee for a ride after school; the “Nisha” call – was circumstantial. Unless the state can figure out how to fix the problems with their star witness’s inconsistent statements, establish reliable corroboration for their timeline and successfully impeach the defense’s alibi witness, they will have a very difficult time convincing a jury of Syed’s guilt. For now, Adnan Syed is once again an innocent man.

The next Dem governor will pardon him. Maryland is like that. Protests work in Maryland, as long as they play up the victim of this-or-that angle.

Doubt that very much, R322

R323, are you kidding? Protests in Annapolis with massive numbers of peaceful sympathetic Muslim-Americans and allies? Plus news coverage? Of course it'll work.

It's scary that people like R308 think that that is evidence enough to convict beyond a reasonable doubt.

[Quote]they will have a very difficult time convincing a jury of Syed’s guilt.

Yes without the cell phone evidence , and now the DNA evidence failing to put Adnan at the burial, it would be extremely difficult for them to retry this case before a jury. But the question is will they ever have to? Right now the answer is no.

[quote]*She was killed in the best buy parking lot (incoming phone call finds him there), this surmised by way of records,and Jay indicating so. He and Hae would have sex there.

Except she wasn't killed at the Best Buy as it has now come out that the only reason Best Buy was mentioned was because the Police told Jay to say that it was (in order to match the Cell Phone Tower Pings).

[quote]*Jay told a friend that Adnan killed Hae, this before her body was discovered.He warned ppl to stay away from Adanan.

[quote]*Adnan changed his story many times in terms of his whereabouts after school that day.

It's funny that Adnan's story changing is being used against him as a reason why he did it... and that Jay's word is also being used as a reason Adnan did it, when Jay's story also keeps changing.

Also, just because Jay supposedly told someone Adnan killed Hae before the body was found doesn't mean Adnan actually did it.

1) Jay lies. So you don't actually know if Adnan did it, or if Jay did it and was trying to pin it on Adnan.

2) The "friend," who he supposedly told was also a friend who was apparently willing to help cover up the murder of a teenaged girl and then go to a party immediately following. That definitely sounds like someone whom you should believe.

Someone asked a few posts back, if Adnan didn't do it, who else would have a motive to. This has been answered repeatedly. Don could have done it and should have been looked at more seriously.

Someone also asked something about people who think Adnan is innocent. I dont think there is anyone here posting and saying Adnan is innocent. I think people are posting saying that based on what we know, the facts, and the evidence available, it's hard to say he did it beyond a reasonable doubt.

R324, "of course it will work". Um, ok.

Adnan said he was "very high"that day so he can't remember anything.That's his defense

I also look at the Kristi,who collaborated Jenn's story about Adnan and Jay showing up "upset"

Jay copped a "after the fact"charge on the murder,not conspiracy. ...so he didn't "go free"

Wow Jay ran to California per his baby mama. But told her police made him "snitch"on Adnan.

Why would Jay lie about something that would also implicate him? Helping to bury a dead body is a crime.

Why would Don murder her?? Aside from the hours worked that is in question, there is nothing else to hang that theory on. With Adnan, he is possessive, controlling, wrote that he wanted to kill in his notebook,he changed his story how many times,his alibi admitted she wanted to lie about his whereabouts,the girl he was obsessed about found a new bf and moved on.

R331

Why would Jay lie about all the other stuff he's been known to lie about? He admitted to lying about anything ever happening at Best Buy because the Police told him to. Yes, burying the body is a crime --- which he served no time for, right? We have no idea what else the Police may have had on Jay or what deal may have been struck. What we do know is that 1) He admitted to lying about a crucial piece of evidence because the Police told him to. 2) We know that the Baltimore PD has a long history of planting evidence and making false arrests.

As far as Don, we don't know what motive he may have had because they didn't spend enough time looking into him. His motive could have been as little as not liking that she was still friendly with Adnan. And yes, his alibi is flimsy as hell. He may not have done it, but he certainly should have been looked at more closely. If he had been we'd know whether or not there was a motive.

[quote]Jenn Pulselrak sticks by her story an phone records support the time frame

Except remember, it fits the time frame because the time frame was created to match the phone records, which ultimately turned out to be wrong.

We don't know what the actual time frame was.

Well, because he is a liar does not make this lie untrue. Most ppl lie to advance their cause-whatever it may be.In this case, what cause is he advancing? He put himself w a dead body, and buried it.

Don had no motive.He and she were getting along, she liked him he liked her.No motive.Adnan had a huge motive.He meets the textbook case of a person that kills.Controlling,manipulative,dishonest,jealous.He was jealous and mad that she told him she did not want to get back w him

above for R332

Again, you can't say Don had no motive because you don't know enough about him to say he doesn't.

And you're free to believe that "this time" Jay is telling the truth. He has been inconsistent enough that I can't take a word that comes out of him seriously. Yes, he put himself with a dead body, we don't know what the Police got in exchange for him lying about that or about being at Best Buy (which he admitted to lying about).

R318, I can only speak for myself. I have no idea if Adnan is innocent. But I do know, given the evidence presented at his trial, that he certainly should not have been found guilty. Reasonable doubt is rampant in this case.

Innocence means nothing in the US criminal justice system.

R336-it doesn't matter what I think-clearly, the investigation found that he had no motive.The current situation speaks to that fact. Not my opinion.Jay put himself there, and as a huge liar I am sure he knew that a lie would get him in more hot water.

The fact is, the biggest motives for murder are:

Sex

Money

Power

Revenge

Adnan had all but one.

Nobody else did.

[quote] the investigation found that he had no motive.

You mean the investigation that botched this whole thing from the start and also got a "witness" to make false testimony? The same investigators who have tampered with more than 4 cases with wrongful convictions?

HAHAHA. Okay then.

And once again, you don't know that nobody else did.

[quote]Jay put himself there, and as a huge liar I am sure he knew that a lie would get him in more hot water.

Except he has now admitted to lying about a major lie he told. Which means he knew lying would actually get him OUT of hot water, ie, a deal with the police.

R339 the "botching" of the investigation was not enough for a re-trial.Serial was completely biased and inflated so many elements of the case in terms of those things "botched". EVERY TRIAL has this sort of thing. EVERY TRIAL.This is nothing new.The fact is, enough was there to find him Guilty. And, of course he did it. My god.

And once again, I dont know nobody else did it. Right. I am sure there were many ppl that wanted to kill her. All but Adnan. Ok.

You keep pointing to Serial... nobody is solely using Serial to make their points.

The fact remains:

1) The key evidence in the case, the cell pings, proved to be faulty.

2) Key testimony by a witness turned out to be manufactured at the urging of the Police Investigators.

3) The Police Investigators involved have a history of planting evidence and getting wrongful convictions.

But we can skip over all that, right?

No one else had a motive.

Well, maybe except the person who had molested her and didn't want her to continue telling people about it.

This "but what's the motive!?" / "Don didn't have a motive, Adnan did!" angle is beyond juvenile. People clearly watch too much Law & Order.

A motive is fucking useless with no evidence. Anyone can come up with a motive that fits whatever narrative they want, if they think hard enough. But there's still the absence of any actual witnesses, facts, evidence, DNA, or proof - that is, EXCEPT for the proof that the police and Jay acted poorly and corruptly (probably maliciously so), and that Don's mother(s) forged his time cards.

If i'm going to put someone in jail for life, I wanna see some RECEIPTS. Not just "he was probably motivated by jealousy" nonsense. Grow up.

R342, they were "faulty", this brought about on the side of the defense-faulty does not mean that the pings did not come from the site.It means that it is possible that they were coming from a larger area field.Still, does not mean that his phone definitely did not ping from grave area.You are grasping.GUess what?EVERY AREA in this country has bad cops, and if you watch ANY DOCUMENTARY on crimes such as these, you will find same.The evidence was enough to find him guilty.How many other ppl you think wanted to kill her?

[quote]they were "faulty", this brought about on the side of the defense-faulty does not mean that the pings did not come from the site.It means that it is possible that they were coming from a larger area field.

Exactly now maybe you will slowly start to grasp the significance of that.

Adnan was attempting to access Hae's car around the time of her death; he later lied to police about this. The day after the murder Jay confides to Jenn that he and Adnan committed the crime together. He lied to the police at first, saying he knew nothing..Over the next six weeks Jay tells additional people the same thing. The police find Jay through Jenn, whose number is in Adnan's phone records. Adnan never gives Jay's name to the police as his alibi for the day. Jenn confesses what she knows to the police with a lawyer present. Then the police interview Jay, and he quickly confesses. He offers details of the crime unreleased or unknown at the time, such as Hae's position in the grave and the location of her still-missing car. He suggests Adnan told Hae his car was broken-down; and this is corroborated by a witness who heard the ride request. In Hae's car, the police find Adnan's fingerprints and not Jays. As well, Jay's account of the evening is supported by the phone records which show that after the police call at 'Cathy's' house and subsequent panic, the phone moves towards the Park and Ride, then to Leakin Park. Adnan agrees that the phone was in his possession during this time; Jenn also recalls speaking to him. Yet he cannot recall where or what he was doing with Jay during this crucial period, despite claiming in Serial that the police call just prior was a "moment he'd never forget". His only suggestion is that he "probably" would have gone to the mosque; the phone records reveal this to be untrue. At no point does Adnan suggest a version of his day that matches the phone records. His only defense is that it was an ordinary and forgettable day, when in reality: it was the day after activating his first cell phone; an important day of Ramadan; his best friend's birthday; a day during which he skipped school and drove around with Jay; went to a house he'd never been to and met people he'd never met; and (most glaringly) it was the day his ex-girlfriend and current friend went missing and he was notified of this life-changing event by the police.

THANK YOU, R347. Extremely well put.

The phone records? You mean the ones that are very clearly unable to match location for incoming calls?

The 630pm burial in Leakin Park based on the phone records has been debunked by the livor mortis of Haes body and JAYS OWN TESTIMONY who says the burial never happened in that time frame but again the cops wanted to make up a narrative based on the phone records.

R349 even if we forget the phone records-the fact that Jay who at first denied a thing, then not only confesses to helping, but knows HOW HER BODY is positioned in the GRAVE and THE WHEREABOUTS OF HER CAR.

Why did Jay need to take police to Haes car rather than just telling them where it was?

Here is what FBI profiler thought upon reading the case file before anyone was caught/charged:

*Not criminally sophisticated.

*Young and impulsive.

*Motive was NOT robbery and NOT rape. Motive was PERSONAL CAUSE, as in rage or revenge.

*Less than 1% chance it was a serial killer.

First he profiled Hae and stated that since she was not into drugs or prostitution, she was a low-risk victim. This means her killer was most likely someone from within a small circle of people close to her. It was probably someone who had a relationship with her and this relationship was known by other people to exist. This is why she was hidden away after she was murdered, to prevent her discovery. A stranger doesn't care if his victims are found.

Which makes sense and everyone mentioned as possibly being involved was someone known to Hae. Even the upstanding Jen.

Ppl that continue to defend him and act as a town crier rather than looking at the facts are way too emotionally involved in this.There is a very CLEAR logic issue with them.

Thank you R306 yes so remember that from Serial. It seems like this whole case has rested on that one phone call and they could easily have been referring to Don!

People that are somehow convinced of his guilt in spite of the scant evidence are apparently too lazy to type out "people".

R356, um-he is in prison.I am not the only person convinced of his guilt.Maybe consider the Judges, Jurors, cops, and well...the actual facts of the case.

R355 R356 maybe read this again-

Adnan was attempting to access Hae's car around the time of her death; he later lied to police about this. The day after the murder Jay confides to Jenn that he and Adnan committed the crime together. He lied to the police at first, saying he knew nothing..Over the next six weeks Jay tells additional people the same thing. The police find Jay through Jenn, whose number is in Adnan's phone records. Adnan never gives Jay's name to the police as his alibi for the day. Jenn confesses what she knows to the police with a lawyer present. Then the police interview Jay, and he quickly confesses. He offers details of the crime unreleased or unknown at the time, such as Hae's position in the grave and the location of her still-missing car. He suggests Adnan told Hae his car was broken-down; and this is corroborated by a witness who heard the ride request. In Hae's car, the police find Adnan's fingerprints and not Jays. As well, Jay's account of the evening is supported by the phone records which show that after the police call at 'Cathy's' house and subsequent panic, the phone moves towards the Park and Ride, then to Leakin Park. Adnan agrees that the phone was in his possession during this time; Jenn also recalls speaking to him. Yet he cannot recall where or what he was doing with Jay during this crucial period, despite claiming in Serial that the police call just prior was a "moment he'd never forget". His only suggestion is that he "probably" would have gone to the mosque; the phone records reveal this to be untrue. At no point does Adnan suggest a version of his day that matches the phone records. His only defense is that it was an ordinary and forgettable day, when in reality: it was the day after activating his first cell phone; an important day of Ramadan; his best friend's birthday; a day during which he skipped school and drove around with Jay; went to a house he'd never been to and met people he'd never met; and (most glaringly) it was the day his ex-girlfriend and current friend went missing and he was notified of this life-changing event by the police.

The Adnan lovers are sort of like Trumpians.

R355, I believe that tip came from a man with an Asian accent.

So, that means that aside from Jay and Adnan, there is someone else who out there that knew Adnan did it and I'm curious as to how and what the connection was. Or someone was trying to frame Adnan.

Also, I don't think the tip could have been referring to Don. They would have said, "boyfriend," and not "ex-boyfriend."

R359 Except that not a single post in this thread qualifies as an "Adnan lover". 98% are saying they believe he did it.

What's Trumpian are the morons talking about Muslim honour killings, simpleton 'he was totally vengeful and jealous and had a motive!' explanations, and complete disregard for both the law, and the fact that there is no factual evidence.

Sorry that was meant for R358

[quote]Maybe consider the Judges, Jurors, cops, and well...the actual facts of the case.

You mean the cops who have a history of planting evidence and getting false convictions on multiple people? The same cops who coerced Jay into making up testimony about the events of the murder?

The actual facts of the case? You mean the facts which the entire case hinged on being: 1) the Cell phone Records - which turned out to be faulty and didn't actually support when the crime took place, but rather was used to create a timeline, despite it not matching the timeline that the star witness, Jay, says happened? and 2) Testimony from Jay, who now acknowledges that at least part of the testimony he gave to jurors was false and never happened, but he said it because the Police told him to?

Somehow, I think if Jurors were aware of the stuff above, they would probably, at the very least, given them some pause.

I find it fascinating how some keep trying to ignore that the Police were corrupt and planted testimony --- but it seems to be perfectly okay because it helped convict the actual murderer.

And you can keep repeating it all you want, but no one here has proclaimed love for Adnan. Hell, it doesn't even seem like anyone has said that they think he's not guilty. What is being discussed is whether or not their were problems with the process and anything that is questionable in the entire crime. To not be able to make the distinction between that and proclaiming everyone loves Adnan, is, well, strange.

[Quote]Maybe consider the Judges, Jurors, cops

Does that include the judge who overturned his conviction and the three appeals court judges who voted to overturn his conviction?

Good catch, R364.

Here's another question.

Did they ever account for how Adnan's fingerprints got on the floral paper sitting on TOP of the map in the backseat?

He mentioned he had given Hae a rose like 6 months prior, but the rose that sits on top of the map in the evidence photos, if I remember correctly, looked fresh.

r342, Because out of everything on this case, "Serial" looks positively objective. It seems like you and others get your facts from "Undisclosed" and this show which are incredibly biased.

Uh.. no, those facts do not come from either Serial or Undisclosed, R366. You're obviously not very familiar with the actual facts, which those are..

[quote] I still don't understand how Jay and Adnan can sit around and smoke weed with friends after just killing and burying a body for the first time?

Are you joking? If it wasn't such a stupid statement, it might be cute

You need to educate yourself a little. Lots and lots and lots of people kill other people and immediately carry on as if nothing happened. They go to work, they go to dinner with friends, they go right to school, they do all kinds of things immediately afterwards. They're killers. They don't have a conscience. They aren't like you and me, they don't give a fuck

So Alozo,the pisser in the park(who found Hae's body) lives behind Woodlawn High.What was he doing in Leakin Park...peeing?

Adnan should have taken the plea deal.Folks think he's guilty anyway.

Very sorry to hear Adnan's mom has leukemia, that on top of worrying about her son.So horribly sad.

I wish Adnan's attorney was tougher

Weed makes you paranoid An longtime use causes psychological issues

If Adnan was a good kid,why is he riding around with Jay,buying drugs?Adnan's family seems in denial about who Adnan really was.

So Adnan blackmailed Jay about a big weed purchase to get him to help bury Hae's body.Jay is funny.

Jay's babymama calling him to ask him about case...weird.He answers from California and admits he snitched on Adnan...to save himself from big weed charges (the ten pounds Adnan was supposedly gonna blackmail him about)

Good docudrama, so many twists and turns. The private detectives driving around Jay's old stomping grounds in Edmondson village.....stupidest part of show.

Hae did not die at Best Buy. Where did she die then?

Jay recently admitted police told him to say that. The entire case and Serial podcast was based around Best Buy.

Jay was a coached witness. He knew nothing.

Why would Hae be on her way to see Don if he was working that day from 9-6 at another location? Hunt Valley mall was 22 minutes away from Woodlawn High. She had to be to pick up her cousin at 3:15pm. She left school at 2:15/2:20 which means the earliest she could have seen Don was 2:40. And she would have to be on her way again to pick up her cousin at 3:15. It makes no sense.

Don was not working that day which is exactly why she had plans to meet him.

Lividity indicators prove Hae's body was buried around 10pm-12am in Leakin Park which would explain why Don didn't get home till 1:30 in the morning.

His original timesheet said he was off on Jan 13th before his mom changed it. Having a mother be your alibi must be sweet.

Where were Jay and Adnan from 10 - 12 AM? Were they together?

They keep saying that anyone who knew Hae knew she had to pick up her cousin after school... so why would someone choose to kill her before that? Wouldn't you want to do it some time after that, at a time where it wouldn't immediately cause suspicion?

R368, I think the last thing one would do after murdering someone for the first time is sit around and smoke weed.

The dumbest part of this story is that Jay and Adnan were smoking weed at 6 and were high when shoveling and burying a dead body in a park at 7 Wtf?

These were not hitmen. These were two high school potheads having a regular afternoon who became suspects 6 weeks later because racist police suspected the black kid and Pakistani kid over the white guy who Hae was on her way to meet.

Jay and Jen were selling pot to high school minors so they had to say anything to cooperate with police so they don't get jail time.

I think the brief incoming calls to Jen were because she's a weed dealer and Adnan was buying pot from her.

In order to get away with a slap on the wrist, they had to be cooperating witnesses and pin everything on Adnan.

The cops needed a witness. They used Jen and Jay to frame Adnan.

[quote]I think the brief incoming calls to Jen were because she's a weed dealer and Adnan was buying pot from her.

Why wouldn't Adnan say this?

[R378]

Adnan is not saying alot except he was "very high and can not remember anything"....

Yes Don's alibi was flimsy. So was Jay's So was Jenn's and Kristi's But Adnan's amnesia is too convenient.He won't have to lie if he says he was too high to remember.

Adnan needs to be released. I used to be for a new trial, but now I know the police and DA fucked up royally.

I think he may have done it, but misconduct by the police and DA is 100% unacceptable. Fuck them. I fuckin hate cops.

I think Hae's family killed her.

R372

I forgot that Don didn't get home until 1.30am, and Hae's body shows that it was buried at 10pm to midnight (making the cops/Jay's made up story of him and Adnan getting high and burying the body at 7pm even more ridiculous).

The fact that Don didn't call Hae even though she was going to meet him, is unaccounted for during those hours of her burial, and has clearly lied TWICE in his alibi (confirmed by other employees at the video store) should make him an even bigger suspect than Adnan and his "I don't remember shit" nonsense.

I also wouldn't rule out the park pisser honestly (what the fuck was he doing there at that time? too convenient), which is another reason I wouldn't be comfortable putting Adnan in jail.

Jay and Jen have to be some of the biggest pieces of shit i've come across in a case like this. A pair of dumb, pathetic drug dealers who would do anything to save their asses, no matter how low. Two of the three stooges in this case (I'd say the third is Adnan but at least he doesn't appear to be lying as much as they are).

[quote]Jay and Jen have to be some of the biggest pieces of shit i've come across in a case like this. A pair of dumb, pathetic drug dealers who would do anything to save their asses, no matter how low. Two of the three stooges in this case (I'd say the third is Adnan but at least he doesn't appear to be lying as much as they are).

As was pointed out previously, that is what is one of the more fascinating things about this tragedy - the absolutely shitty people involved in all of it.

With Jen and Jay, no matter what the truth is, they are either 1) People who didn't think twice about being an accessory to murder and didn't care that a teenage girl was going to get/got murdered and did nothing to stop it or 2) they're people who lied for whatever reason and got a man imprisoned for something they didn't actually know if he did or not.

[quote]The fact that Don didn't call Hae even though she was going to meet him, is unaccounted for during those hours of her burial, and has clearly lied TWICE in his alibi (confirmed by other employees at the video store) should make him an even bigger suspect than Adnan and his "I don't remember shit" nonsense.

I think you mean glasses store not video store.

And what time did Don, if he was working, get off work? Lens Crafters couldn't have possibly had him working past 10 p.m. so did they ever even bother to ask him to account for his time from when he got off work until they were able to reach him at 1:30 AM?

Someone above kept rambling about how Don didn't need to call Hae because... whatever ridiculous, rambling, "guy stuff," theory they tried to posit.

However, this is what Don says about his relationship with Hae:

[quote]To the filmmakers, he said, “There’s not a day go by that I do not think about her and what happened. I was very much in love with her. But to be honest with you, I’ve got a lot of other things on my mind.”

So he was so in love with her, thinks about her everyday to this day.... and yet she disappears and never once tries to contact her.

And some people want to desperately try to claim this is normal behavior?

Jay's story was ridiculous from the beginning.

Adnan told him to bring 10 POUNDS of marijuana so that he could blackmail Jay into helping him bury Hae.

Adnan and Jay decide to leave a dead Hae in the trunk of the car while they smoke weed for a few hours.

All three stooges (Adnan, Jay, and Jen) are high and decide to go out to the park, successfully dig a grave that isn't found for 6 weeks, and bury Hae, dispose of all evidence, and dump Hae's car in an abandoned lot.

Somehow Adnan has the ability to do this while still being seen at the mosque for prayers later in the evening.

How can anyone believe Jay or Jen's story?

Why were Jen and Jay not charged with being an accomplice or accessory to murder?

Because the cops knew they had nothing to do with Hae's murder. They actually have no idea who killed Hae but had to pick someone to be the culprit so they chose the ex boyfriend because they got a tip.

They never questioned the streaker/indecent exposure guy Mr. S (Alonzo Sellers) who actually found Hae's body while "pissing at the park" and lived right behind Woodlawn High.

Sellers, who Koenig referred to as Mr. S in Serial, also had a bit of a criminal past — as an alleged streaker. He had several indecent exposure charges, including one in 1994 for allegedly running naked in a residential neighborhood and another in 1996 after he was allegedly spotted in a hoodie, white sneakers sunglasses and nothing else. He ran from police and jumped chain link fences in that incident. Not long before Lee was killed he also allegedly stood naked in front of a uniformed police officer in her car.

However, when it came to finding the body Koenig noted that he passed a polygraph test and he soon faded as from law enforcement’s minds as a suspect in the murder of Lee.

But in the finale of the four-part HBO docu-series, private investigators Tyler Maroney and Luke Brindle-Khym, who work with Quest Research & Investigations (QRI), revisited the case of Sellers.

But in the finale of the four-part HBO docu-series, private investigators Tyler Maroney and Luke Brindle-Khym, who work with Quest Research & Investigations (QRI), revisited the case of Sellers.

Maroney said that over the last six months, he and his partner have been investigating a new angle. Lee’s body was found with several impressions on her collarbone, including one in the distinct shape of a double diamond. Their question is simple: what caused that mark?

“There has been some suggestion that those impressions were made by what’s called a concrete shoe, and this is a tool that’s put on the bottom of a grinder, which you could grind up concrete,” Maroney said. “But the reason this is interesting is that we know that Alonzo Sellers worked in concrete for years and years and years and years.”

Maroney said he and Brindle-Khym tried to speak to Sellers, who they discovered lives only about a five-minute walk from Woodlawn High School, about the murder, but he refused to speak with them.

(R389)

Yeah the pisser in the park who found her body. Still strange...running around in Leakin Park,wintertime with your penis out.But a cop said that park is a notorious male prostitution spot....which is why Alonzo Sellers was dismissed. Sellers was in park looking for men and found Hae. Maybe?Whatever...Adnan needs to either get his memory back or cop a plea.His martyrdom is killing his parents...who need him out of jail.

He should have taken the plea...4 more yrs on what he already served and a guilty plea.I thought that was quite generous.I don't think his lawyer can do better in this Trump Climate(as they pointed out many time...yes MD has Republican Gov)

R390, how can he remember a normal day from six weeks ago?

Let's say Adnan is innocent.

How exactly would he remember the events of an innocuous Thursday afternoon that he spent smoking weed? The only thing he seems to remember is that it was Ramadan, Stephanie's birthday, and that the cops called him to ask where Hae was but he didn't think much of it because he assumed she probably was out with Don.

When you're a teenager, the days all blur into each other.

If he's guilty, why would he not take the plea deal that would let him out of jail in 4 years? Adnan is still a young man. He isn't even 40 yet. He refuses to plea guilty and get out and would rather serve life.

I guarantee he didn't take the deal because Rabia and his other handmaidens told him not to. She's done nothing for him except get rich off of him. She n o doubt told him to stay strong and he would be out for Ramadan and able to sue. She's vile.

He didn't take plea guilty even back then.

Gutierrez tried to get him to plea.

He refused

I hear Adnan's mother isn't too fond of Rabia either. They think she's an opportunist

Wasn't there also some random link between Mr. S and some other (minor) player in the story?

Yes, it's difficult to remember things from last week, let alone 6 weeks ago. However, I don't understand how Adnan classifies that day as "any other day." There were at least two things about that day that signified it as not an ordinary day... It was Ramadan and he got a call from the Police asking about the disappearance of his Ex-Girlfriend.

Everyone else seems to remember the events of that day.

And again, I get it, you forget things, however, if the cops called you, I'm pretty sure you would remember that day and in the moment speaking to the police, you'd most likely recount the last time you saw Hae that day and that in itself would be a marker for how you spent the rest of the day.

Actually, there was another event that marked it as not just "an ordinary day."

It was his friend's birthday.

He also does remember a few events that day, like giving his friend her birthday present and thinking how he should tell her boyfriend to go buy her a gift, and lending her boyfriend, whom he says he barely knew, his car and brand new cell phone.

Where did Hae die?

Jay has now admitted she didn't die at Best Buy. The cops told him to say that.

Okay, so Adnan decides he's going to kill Hae. He recruits Jay to assist him prior to committing the murder. He agrees.

Adnan goes through with murdering Hae and Jay helps him bury the body, etc.

So then why do the Police need Jay to fabricate a story about Best Buy?

Why do they need to invent a timeline that even Jay insists didn't happen. If Jay was involved in helping Adnan, why not just go with the story that Jay has... since he is supposedly a first hand witness to it all?

A bit OT, was there a shortage of available straight young women in this town?

Not meaning to seem cruel, but Hae was no beauty, yet both her BFs were fairly attractive or at least better looking than she was. Just sayin'.

[R399]

I found Hae and her friends ALL very unattractive.Jenn and Kristi look like white trash.

An now,years later Hae's friends all look matronly....

[Quote]in this town?

Baltimore is a town now?

Gross r399, Adnan was not cute, that shitty mustache and that hair, and that nose... they were equally unattractive.

This case needs a re trial

Don is hot? I've never seen a photo of Don. White guys love Asian girls. Asian girls go nuts over white guys. Hae really fit that stereotype based on how starry eyed she was for Don.

Adnan apparently had a thing for Stephanie, Jay's girlfriend, and she's black. He was also talking to a girl named Nisha -race unknown

And Jay had a thing for fellow burnout Jen Pusateri, and she's white.

Adnan was captain of the football team and homecoming prince at a majority black Baltimore high school. He was a lover of 90s hip hop, has a black accent, and Adnan even described Jay as "white" for his goth and heavy metal interests. By all accounts, Jay was the outcast and eccentric kinda like a Dennis Rodman and Adnan was the popular kid/golden boy at Woodlawn High and at the local mosque.

Stephanie was the fellow honors kid and popular girl at Woodlawn. She was crowned homecoming queen along with Adnan.

Did their relationship bother Jay? Jay said he'd do anything to keep Stephanie.

Interesting Jay said this about Stephanie in an interview:

In his Intercept interview, Jay recounts a recent phone call he made to Stephanie:

"We got into it a little bit. I told her that she was naive about Adnan. After the murder, she didn’t believe that he did it. We argued a little bit because I leaned on her and said, ‘I wouldn’t have ever really been in contact with Adnan had she not suggested that I sell weed to him."

Stephanie said in statements in 1999 that Jay never indicated anything about Adnan killing Hae prior to his arrest. It seems to me to be unlikely that Jay would say nothing to Stephanie who regularly spent time with Adnan. As far as the, "he told me to stay away from him," I interpret that as Jay being worried about Adnan's close relationship with Stephanie.

I also found this interesting, in response to how he felt about testifying:

"It keeps going around and around and around, like I’m worried God is going to strike me down. I can’t have this in the back of my mind that I’m going to get a lightning bolt or something."

Why would God strike him down for testifying against a murderer?

He also said this:

"The lawyers and police representing the state made me feel like I did well. Or like I did the right thing. And for a time that made me feel better, but it never felt good–it did feel necessary."

They made him "feel like" he "did well?" Odd thing to say. This is all sort of like his statement: "If Adnan didn't do it, then who did?"

I think the police believed Adnan did it. I think they probably convinced Jay that Adnan did it. And Jay provided a false confession because he believed Adnan did it. In my opinion it was a cycle of confirmation bias. Jay didn't like Adnan to begin with because he was one of the magnet kids and his girlfriend had a thing for him.

Stephanie believes Adnan over Jay.

Jay never told his girlfriend Stephanie Adnan killed Hae yet he told Jen that same day that Adnan killed Hae?

Yeah like a black guy that isn't insane would ever tell a white woman a murder just happened and he needs her help to help him bury the evidence.

I didn't realize that Stephanie ever spoke out about any of it (or that she still had contact with Jay). Interesting that she mentions he never mentioned anything to her prior to Hae's death. Did he mention anything to her after Hae's death but prior to going to the police? Because that's weird that he'd tell Jen, and not Stephanie.

Also strange that he was known as the town liar/bragger. One would assume he would go around telling people prior to the incident, at least one person, what was going on. He certainly had no trouble telling everyone after it happened.

Stephanie didn't speak out recently. She wants no part of this saga. Jay is recounting a private convo he had with his ex.

This argument was a recurring one and source of contention during the trial. Stephanie never believed Adnan killed Hae and Jay was angry she didn't believe it.

Why would Jay not tell his girlfriend to stay the hell away because her buddy Adnan just murdered a girl? He didn't tell her anything about Adnan killing Hae till after his arrest.

Yet he told Jen the day of the murder. I don't believe Jen and Jay. Cops had leverage over them and coached them to bear false witness/testimony on Adnan in order to avoid jail time for selling drugs to minors. That's why Jay says he thought God would strike him down. That's because he knows he was lying.

[quote]I found Hae and her friends ALL very unattractive.Jenn and Kristi look like white trash.

[quote]An now,years later Hae's friends all look matronly....

Hae's friends all look a decade older than 38.

For the person above asking about Don's looks.

So apparently he has some disability that he suffers from which stems from an injury he received around the time he was 23. I don't think what the disability is or what the injury was talked about anywhere.

I wonder if it was actually an injury he sustained when he was 22, say if he was participating in the murder of someone?

[quote]Baltimore is a town now?

Having grown up in an urban environment, Brooklyn, any suburban city is a 'town' to me. Didn't Adnan and Hae live in a Maryland suburb?!

As for the debate about these kids looks, Don was better looking than Hae. For lots of white and Asian women, South Asian guys like Adnan are considered sexy and/or 'exotic'.

R413 Yes, they lived in a suburb.

Adnan was attractive

Adnan with Hae

[post redacted because linking to dailymail.co.uk clearly indicates that the poster is either a troll or an idiot (probably both, honestly.) Our advice is that you just ignore this poster but whatever you do, don't click on any link to this putrid rag.]

[post redacted because linking to dailymail.co.uk clearly indicates that the poster is either a troll or an idiot (probably both, honestly.) Our advice is that you just ignore this poster but whatever you do, don't click on any link to this putrid rag.]

Stephanie

I was shocked at Stephanie's new appearance.Overweight and bloated.Wow,i see why she dosen't wish to be seen now.What happened???To her????

None of the girls at Woodlawn were lookers. Look at how busted Hae and her gal pals look in this pic

I realize this is nothing but silly conjecture, but Jen's face just screams: I'm GUILTY of something. It's not just the haggard appearance from booze, cigarettes and drugs or whatever. It's an exhaustion that's hard to define but easy to recognize.

[R422]

Jenns had issues with rehab and substance abuse. I wonder what kind of drug dealer she made...addicted to various drugs herself.An i suspect it went way past just weed. I also suspect these kids were all addicted to various drugs....which blows their "good kids"rant to me.Adnan was on drugs and his family never noticed....stop the lies.

I love this thread.....

Wow. Don really couldn't keep the porkchops down.

That is him answering questions outside his home in NC. He says he's disabled and hasn't been able to work since 23.

He was 22 when Hae died so this guy hasn't held a job since 2000?

What kinda debilitating disease does he have?

Don in his heyday

Tacky Rabia exposing Don's current mug

Adnan today. Not bad but the beard is overkill. He aged better than some of the others in this story.

No wonder he got denied his appeal. He looks like a damn Al Qaeda terrorist.

Optics matter. Those judges took one good look at Adnan and presumed the Muslim guy probably did kill.

Adnan with his 2 brothers.

Adnan looks crazy

Don looks like a poster child for an FBI serial killer

Jay has aged well,but looks like he has drug/drink issues.

I guess Hae's curse got them all...

[R427]

Rabia is determined...its sad she never used her law degree...what does her culture prevent her from working?Weird,Law degrees are not cheap....

R431, she's an immigration lawyer. I am sure she works.

Her culture doesn't prevent her. She apparently trashed her ex husband once online. No wonder her husband divorced her. What man would stay married to a woman obsessed with a man in prison?

Also significant is her husband was 5 year ago younger than her. More proof she has a thing for Adnan.

*5 years

Rabia is a New York Times bestselling author...i did not know that...per her twitter

So Rabia has hots for Adnan,ewwwww I thought she was involved because her "Auntie"asked her?

Don looks weird to me,twitter has pics up that make he look crazy....disabled since Hae's death....yeah,right

Maybe Don and Alonso got together and murdered Hae, then framed Adnan! That's clearly the most logical explanation here. Can somebody email Rabia?

No need, R436, I'm reading this thread, as I do all chat rooms discussing Adnan!

[R437]

Oh first how is Adnan's mom,well i hope

Was it really hard to believe they were attracted to Hae? Someone posted that above. I'm a gay man but I think she's quite good looking. Not a supermodel or anything but she has a lovely smile. At least less homely than the other Woodlawn girls (she has a thin figure and dresses and does her hair a little 'cooler').

And it's not like the guys in this story are prizes.

Adnan looks like a bird (his brother is the hot one) and has that annoying douchey blaccent he puts on, Jay couldn't look more like a lying creep if he tried, and Don has that typical limp-dicked Maryland serial killer look.

Links to pics of Don? Why did someone say he died?

All these 'kids' are now in their 30s?! Those are some pretty rough looking 30 somethings!

What I find bizarre, all the parents who assume their kids will have better lives living in suburbia, from the stories my work colleagues tell me about living in suburbia, all they did was get blasted on alcohol and drugs and fuck. No wonder some suburbanites get addicted to opioids and have no moved on to heroin, while others get involved in murders, they're bored out of their minds!

I worked with a woman who told me, when she was in her early 20s, she and her friends went to orgies twice a month. She lived on Long Island.

Hae was pretty. Especially in that crowd.

In the pic at R421, Hae was definitely the pretty one in the group.

[quote]What kinda debilitating disease does he have?

I wonder about that. He claimed that he had some kind of injury a year after Hae's death and has been unable to work since then. He is also saying that he doesn't expect to live past 50.

"Some kind of injury" aka a painfully guilty conscience?

Adnan spent his life in prison, but life has been kinder to him than Don who looks fucking terrible, yikes.

The ghost of Hae has been haunting Don for years.

I do think drug abuse has ruined them all. Probally started at weed and graduated to harder stuff,and their looks tell the story. Hae's girlfriends were just ugly...except for Stephanie(in the beginning...Steph looking crackish now too/did Jay get her started?).These were not good kids....good kids do not do drugs.Period.The docu-drama embellished their "charmed,upper suburb lives...."

So Adnan threatened Hae's teacher when she pressed him about his relationship with Hae. Oh an after Hae disappeared,when asked Adnan would reply "Ask her new boyfriend"...oh Really.

This case needs to be re-examined without acknowledging anything Jay or Jen said.

They are not credible witnesses

still would look bad for Adnan....with Kristi's testimony about Jay/Adnan coming to her house.....upset

I can't remember what Kristi's testimony was.

Wasn't it just that Jay and Adnan came over and smoked out and Adnan sat on the floor, quiet, not saying anything? I think he also took a call and she said he seemed to be agitated by the call - to which Adnan says it was a call from one of Hae's friends saying she told Police to call him?

Do we know what time this call was? It might give further insight in to matching events more closely to when Hae actually died/was buried.

[quote]Hae was pretty. Especially in that crowd.

They were all homely looking. Like the types who do well academically because they aren't popular. Hae looks like a plain average Asian woman walking around my neighborhood. I live in NYC.

I see very few Asian knockouts where I live, same with South Asians, white, Hispanic and black women. The word is filled with very average looking people! Hae sure didn't look like Gemma Chan!

Hae's body was found before Jay gave any testimony. The only information Jay supposedly provided police was the location of Hae's car, but if the police found the car, they could just as easily told Jay where they found it for his “testimony”.

[quote] R452 Hae sure didn't look like Gemma Chan!

Umm... Gemma Chan is an actress and former fashion model. Hae Min Lee was a murdered Maryland high school student.

Adnan called Jay a fucking coward before he took the stand.

He called Jay pathetic and a fucking coward.

Why such harsh words though?

Interesting he never calls Jay a liar. If Jay completely made up all that detail, why would Adnan not call him a liar? Wouldn't an innocent person be outraged that a friend is falsely accusing them of murder?

Also interesting is Jay saying he feared he would be struck down while testifying. Why? He swore to tell the truth and only the truth. The fear of lightning strike is associated with lying. Jay, according to all his close pals, was a frequent habitual liar. Why would Adnan not call Jay a liar? All Jay's friends did and for discretions far minor than premeditated murder.

Do we have verificatia of Adan’s Sizemeat yet?

Adnan expected Jay to take the charges for him.

What is with these caucasian kids who befriend minorities to do their dirty work.Iam glad Jay say nope,an let Adnan lay in his own messy bed.

**Adnan

Adnan isn't Caucasian

[quote]Adnan isn't Caucasian

Here we go again with this tired debate. South Asians actually are considered Caucasian.

There are so many clueless people posting at DL. It's a miracle these posters can put one foot in front of the other and these same people also have college degrees. Their degrees are probably from Trump University or DeVry!

Maybe the "pathetic" and "fucking coward" calls were simply because he knew Jay made a deal with the crooked cops.

I guess it could be seen as cowardly to not take drug charges on the wrist, and instead lying and fabricating a story with the police (who are often seen as an enemy to POC). Perhaps Adnan felt Jay was cowardly for "selling out", so to speak.

Adnan is a Pakistani Muslim. He's South Asian

Yes India and Pakistan and the Middle East/North Africa is technically Caucasian but culturally the term Caucasian is used to mean white European

I think Adnan likes being in jail. He says he is popular and well respected among the inmates especially as a non convert to Islam. Adnan says he would rather stay in jail for life than take a plea of guilt despite the frustration and pressure from his lawyers and family. He says he knows he's stubborn but that taking a plea to get out of jail would mean exchanging one prison for another.

He says he wants "the truth of what happened to Hae" rather than freedom. Sounding very OJ like

[quote]Adnan is a Pakistani Muslim. He's South Asian Yes India and Pakistan and the Middle East/North Africa is technically Caucasian but culturally the term Caucasian is used to mean white European

Please STFU. I know exactly what Adnan is. He's also an American, he was born in Maryland.

I don't even think Italians and Greeks should be considered Caucasian but they are. I can't even clearly identify myself, I'm of two races and six nationalities. I can pass for biracial (black/white) or Hispanic. Some people think I'm part South Asian.. Good luck with categorizing me buddy! No one ever guesses what I am.

I have a gorgeous female relative who looks Eurasian, she's nothing but Italian, German and Irish! Yet looks nothing like any of those nationalities. People also assume she's part East Asian.

Lord knows, people always need to ask "'What' are you?" What a racist and xenophobic society the US has become. The Adnan Syed case sure brought that fact to the forefront.

R453, you don't think Italians and Greeks should be called Caucasian but you're calling others racist? Pakistanis are absolutely Caucasian and Italians aren't. Okay, gotcha.

Stop trying to derail thread with racist bullshit. Can we please stick to Adnan....Rabia....Auntie and who killed Hae.

You Trumpettes ruin everything.

If you can't tell the difference between the technical and cultural term caucasian.Maybe you need to excuse yourself from this ADULT conversation.You must be a child.

[quote] [R453], you don't think Italians and Greeks should be called Caucasian but you're calling others racist? Pakistanis are absolutely Caucasian and Italians aren't. Okay, gotcha.

I've never thought Italians and other Mediterraneans should be considered white, mostly because in the US, whites are usually Wasps and Mediterraneans are not Wasps. btw, one of my six nationalities is Italian, so, once again, STFU. Besides, lots of Sicilians are part Tunisian.

For the person at R467, I am NOT a racist and sure not a Trumpette and thanks to ME...you have this thread back again. I BUMPED it!

[R468]

Thanks.....so Rabia is in love with Adnan.Did she kill Hae?

R468, oh god. And what kinda WASP's are Pakistanis then?

You wanted to derail the conversation with a technical point that Pakistanis and South Asians are Caucasian even though it's obvious what is meant by Caucasian is white/European not Middle Eastern or South Asian.

I guarantee you the Baltimore cops don't think of Adnan as a white Caucasian male nor does Adnan think of himself as white.

The white Caucasian in this case (Don) was overlooked completely by the police in favor of Pakistani Adnan and the two black guys (Jay and Mr. S). Don was the only suspect NOT sent down to the police station for interrogation even though Hae was on her way to see Don before she died.

You want to know where the police detectives questioned Don? They didn't arrest him and take down to the police station.

They went to his place of work! He was questioned at LensCrafters in front of his mom.

Yet people want to say racism with police is a myth.

Huh, r 469. I think you're into something. Clearly, Rabia, Don and Jay got together to murder Hae.

R469

😂

Did Don eat Hae?

Don doesn't go into detail over how he sustained those life altering injuries that have prevented him from working for 20 years.

A LensCrafters co worker claims to have seen Don with scratches and bruises on his arms days after Hae disappeared. This mystery co worker remains anonymous and says Don told everyone he got scraped up while fixing his car.

He could've gotten his arms scraped up from strangling Hae. Hae died at the HANDS of someone not from a gun or knife. He also could've sustained bruising while lifting her body and shoveling like a madman to quickly bury her in Leakin Park.

Don's DNA should be tested to see if any traces are found underneath Hae's fingernails.

[R470]

So Adnan thinks of himself as black......right

[R472]....i am not the one who said Rabia was in love with Adnan...i asked for details.Its an interesting angle.....I thought Rabia was married. You lot pointed me to her social media.....so she is divorced.I thought that was against her culture....could be wrong. I just wanna know why you bitches said she was in love with Adnan?

If they did find Don's DNA on Hae they'd probably explain it away that he was her boyfriend and they had slept together the night before.

R476, divorce is allowed in Islam. It is one of the few things Islam was historically more open minded about then Christians (esp Catholics).

It just doesn't happen often due to financial reasons-often the woman has no money and relies solely on the husband. Rabia has her own career and money so divorce wasn't a problem for her

R477, Sex wouldn't explain DNA underneath her fingernails.

Don's hand injuries are consistent with the likelihood that Hae was scratching for dear life to get her attacker to stop choking her

I know that, R479, Im saying they would explain away that his DNA was under her nails because she had just been with him.

If I remember correctly, they said there was no indication Hae had had sex prior to being murdered.

R480, well, they have samples from the trunk of Hae's car. They can test Don with that unless his excuse is he was sexing Hae in her trunk. None of Adnan or Jay's DNA found on Hae's corpse or in the trunk even though they supposedly lifted and buried her together.

Lividity/rigor mortis evidence indicates Hae was dead and laying face down for about 8 to 10 hours before burial. That's inconsistent with the state's claim that there was a 7pm burial.

If Hae died around 3pm, that means she was buried around 10pm-12am.

Don didn't get back to the cops till 1:30.

Adnan answered the cops call at 6:30pm. Why would he do that if he was too busy scrambling trying to bury Hae? Why would Adnan choose to get high at a friend's house with Hae's body still in the trunk ? That isn't a time for lounging and relaxing.

He also was at the mosque around 5pm to break his "fast" with family. Who the hell would leave a dead body in the trunk and go to prayers and a friends house to smoke pot?

Either Adnan is a total sociopath or the unluckiest man alive

Did they even find clues in the car that supported the idea that she was murdered IN the car?

R482, some autopsy experts have questioned that as well. There's no definitive proof she died inside a car. We know now from Jay she didn't die at Best Buy.

Everything is up for the air. The only definitive is that Hae died from manual strangulation and she was not raped/sexually assaulted.

*in the air

Hae had a broken turn signal or something in her car so that's where the assumption came that she died after a fight in her car.

What's also strange is Don said Adnan was a nice guy who he'd probably be friends with if they were in school together. The prosecuting attorney got pissed at him for saying that.

Why would he say nice things about his girlfriend's killer?

He also said he loved Hae and yet tried getting with her friend Debbie a few weeks after Hae's dead body was found.

^He also said he loved Hae but never once tried to contact her while she was, "missing."

The thing about the turn signal... I seem to recall some interview though with Hae's brother and he said that he was the one that had to drive Hae's car back from wherever it was left and he didn't recall the signal being broken at the time.

Burnout Jen couldn't even keep her lies straight when questioned by police: per reddit

"Don’t forget the part of the interview when Jen says she learned Hae was missing after seeing a news report on TV, and the cop has to remind Jen she already knew Hae was dead."

Sorry, this is the correct info on the broken lever:

[quote] But After the trial ended, my grandpa and I went down the police station to pickup Hae's car. I am almost 100% sure that it was turn signal lever. I remember it pretty well because I was supposed to drive her car back home. But since the turn signal lever was HANGING/DANGLING, my grandpa drove it home. I was a new driver and was uncomfortable driving it without a turn signal.

[quote]You'll recall that in Friday's post, I speculated that Detective Kevin Forrester likely misspoke at Adnan's second trial when he claimed that the lever that was broken in Lee's 1998 Nissan Sentra was on the left side of the steering column. After all, prosecutor Kathleen Murphy claimed that, "[i]n order for H[ae] Lee to kick this wiper lever, we know she was in that passenger seat." For Murphy to argue that the "broken" lever was only consistent with Lee being in the passenger seat, the broken lever had to be on the right side of the steering column and not the left side as Forrester claimed, right? Well...wrong, according to Lee's brother. 100% wrong because the broken lever was the turn signal lever, and the manual for the 1998 Sentra clearly shows the turn signal lever on the left side of the steering column at 2-2].

If you listen to Undisclosed, it becomes clear that all the things Jay "knew" were not necessarily information he came up with on his own. You can even hear a knocking/tapping sound on the desk that detectives made whenever Jay said something wrong or went "off script" so to speak. Blatant forced witness

R364, the Baltimore Circuit Court of Appeals judge who vacated Syed's conviction in 2016 did so not on the basis of the Asia McClain alibi, but rather on the basis of counsel's failure to ask experts on cross about a disclaimed from AT&T that outgoing calls, rather than both outgoing and incoming calls, were reliable as to location.

That's it. That's the sole basis on which the conviction was overturned. The same court found that Asia McClain's alibi wasn't particularly relevant, because the killing could have happened sometime in a far greater window of time than McClain claims to have seen Adnan in the library.

A majority of the Maryland Court of Appeals overturned that ruling, reinstating the sentence, because they found that counsel's failure to cross-examine the state's expert regarding the reliability of incoming phone calls was insufficient to justify vacating the sentence, as there was sufficient evidence for a jury to find Syed guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.

You are implying, with reference to R357, that the circuit court judge and the minority of the Maryland Court of Appeals panel wasn't "convinced of his guilt" (R357). In fact, we don't know what those judges thought of Syed's guilt — we know only of their finding, later overturned, that counsel's failure to cross-examine experts about the reliability of incoming calls to determine location was enough to justify a new trial.

To be fair, the majority of the Court of Appeals wasn't necessarily "convinced of his guilt" either. They were simply convinced that the failure to cross-examine re incoming calls was insufficient to justify a new trial, as there was plenty of evidence apart from the locations supposedly indicated by incoming calls for a jury to find Syed guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.

Bottom line: the cops, prosecutors, and jury were convinced of Syed's guilt. The courts ultimately found that the jury was presented with sufficient evidence to find him guilty beyond a reasonable doubt, and that the sole basis for vacating his sentence and ordering a new trial was not in fact sufficient to overturn the jury's finding of guilt beyond a reasonable doubt.

[quote] South Asians actually are considered Caucasian.

Not in contemporary America, R461.

[quote]Bottom line: the cops, prosecutors, and jury were convinced of Syed's guilt. The courts ultimately found that the jury was presented with sufficient evidence to find him guilty beyond a reasonable doubt, and that the sole basis for vacating his sentence and ordering a new trial was not in fact sufficient to overturn the jury's finding of guilt beyond a reasonable doubt.

Which included false testimony that the Police coerced the star witness to make on the stand.

R495, testimony corroborated by Jen, who was never impeached on the stand. Jay testimony was never actually impeached on the stand, either.

Koenig and Rabia, I think, were both in love with Adnan.

Rabia has a new husband, with baby #3 on the way? She has serious money now, I guess.

R496 corroborated by someone else who is also a liar? Jay admits he lied on the stand. And?

And no one is talking about Rabia except you. You seem as obsessed with her as she is with Adnan.

The only issue with the record was, supposedly, the reliability of incoming calls to determine location.

Which calls was incoming? Outgoing?

Way to get meta, R497, everyone is talking about Rabia. She's the true star and #1 profiter of all this. The HBO series is her production.

*were

Everyone is talking about Rabia? Nobody is talking about Rabia in this thread.

The trial record is the record. Jay can say anything after the fact about what he said or didn't say. Jen's testimony corroborated his testimony in the trial transcript. That's all there is to it. Nothing was deemed sufficient to justify a new trial.

Nothing. Every issue people are bitching about was brought in appeals. Nothing stuck.

R500, she's mentioned 48 times. Are you envious of her fame and leadership of the case? She's a huge deal

hahaha. Right. So nobody ever lies on the witness stand. Got it.

Yeah, she's mentioned 48 times out or 503 posts... and 45 of those are probably from the same person (you) going on and on about how she's in love with Adnan and profitting.

So yeah...

Rabia:

Produced the HBO series. Appeared in every episode.

Has a hit podcast about the case.

Brought the case to Koenig.

Has a NYT bestseller about the case.

Has hundreds of thousands of follower on Twitter.

R503, go to law school. The adversarial process means the trial transcript is all we have to go on, and the truth found therein (or not) is the sole legitimate basis for determining whether there was a fair trial. The courts have ruled.

R504, you're clearly new to all of this. Rabia is the #1 personality related to this case. She's said more about it than Adnan. She's kept it alive.

Jay lies about lying about lying. It's funny that people want to claim anything he says should be trusted.

Also baffling that anyone doesn't question that the Detectives involved have been caught planting false evidence numerous times with wrongful convictions like 4 times?

People should be concerned about that and not be okay with it just because the right guy got locked up anyway.

Your logic is seriously ridiculous.. but again, you seem very very very obsessed with Rabia.

You can't reason with the unhinged. Seriously, block the crazy in here and read their previous posts.

R508 is correct. Blocked the weird SJW.

Oh look, browser switch!

Ugh. The SJW is half of these posts. Sounds like a Rabia follower on Twitter. Blocked.

It's a cult like Trump.

Thrilled he's in prison for good.

Exactly, 510.

I think Don did it

Adnan and Jay stopping to smoke weed at a friend's house while Hae's dead corpse lays unburied in her trunk makes no sense. Would you go and stop at a friend's house to smoke pot after just committing a murder? Why would you risk driving while high with a dead body in the trunk?

Hardly the actions of a frantic or panicked afternoon.

Adnan answered the cops call at 6pm

Don didn't answer till 1am.

What occupied his whole evening?

Why didn't he tell cops he was at work that day?

He didn't tell cops he was working that day till months later.

Hae was on her way to see Don that afternoon and evening.

Adnan is one of the unluckiest people alive if he is innocent. If it weren't for Adnan getting the brand new cell phone the day prior, he probably wouldn't have been convicted. The entire case was built around cell tower pings

Why didn't the cops ever ask him what he was doing that night?

Even if he was working, what was he doing after work until 1:30 AM?

And as pointed out above, if Adanan did kill Hae, why would he do it at 3:00 p.m. knowing someone would notice she was missing by 4:00 p.m.?

Jay's interview with The Intercept is an interesting read. —— How old were you when you first met Adnan Syed?

It was just at the end of my junior year, so about 16. I knew him because I knew Muslims in the community from playing basketball at the mosque.

In “Serial” you are depicted as a petty weed dealer. Is that why you didn’t initially cooperate with the police? It doesn’t seem like enough of a reason to not talk to the police.

It wasn’t just like I was selling a nickel bag here and there. At the time, this was Maryland in the ’90s, the drug laws were extremely serious. I saw the ATF and DEA take down guys in my neighborhood for selling much less than I was at the time. And they were getting sentenced to three and five years. I also ran the operation out of my grandmother’s house and that also put my family at risk. I had a lot more on the line than just a few bags of weed.

When was the first time you hung out with Adnan?

I met him while I was still at Woodlawn, so around 1998. Stephanie [Jay’s girlfriend] came to me and said ‘Adnan is pretty cool,’ plus he wanted to buy some weed. I said, ‘Isn’t he a paramedic?’ And she said, ‘Nah, he’s cool, plus he wants to buy.’

I didn’t trust him at first, since he wasn’t like the people I knew — pot smokers you know? I made him smoke one time, he got a little high, got a little weird. Didn’t say that much. He just seemed like someone who didn’t smoke weed too much. He had a professional job in high school, he was a paramedic or something [Ed. note: Adnan worked as an emergency medical technician, not a paramedic.]

From your perspective, what was Adnan’s reputation at Woodlawn?

He was a little pompous, a little arrogant, but he seemed really driven as far as his academics, but all those magnet students were. He was magnet. He seemed a little bit more uptight than the other Muslim kids that I knew. He seemed under a lot of pressure to please. I got the feeling the few times of interacting with Adnan that there was this enormous pressure from somewhere trying to make him into something he didn’t want to be.

Adnan was supposed to lead prayers at the Mosque that night that Hae was killed. Did he?

I don't remember if that was ever mentioned in the timeline of supposedly what happened with the events of Adnan's day.

His cell tower pings show he was in the radius of the mosque around 9 or 10pm so it's assumed he was there though the cell records are not accurate.

They claim he was leading prayers but like Don's mom his Muslim friends would claim anything to help Adnan.

A guy on the track team said he saw Jay pick up Adnan frequently from practice. Jay is a drug dealer and in order to be successful he'd need a car for drop offs and pick ups. Adnan has a car, and doesn't really need it during the school day. So what if Jay and Adnan had a deal where Jay can use the car for business and Adnan gets a cut?

We know Adnan created some scheme to steal money from the mosque. He could've been in on drug peddling to get some extra cash. Who bought him the brand new cell phone? Did he buy it himself with his own money?

R522 then why wouldn't Adnan just admit that?

And it is still weird that Adnan would just give his brand new cell phone over to some guy the day after he got it.

I assume he did by the cell phone with the money he was earning as an EMT.

So Jay says the first time Adnan got stoned with him Adnan just sat there real quiet.

Wasn't his being quiet what made Cathy think something was going on with him? Because they were all stoned and she was weirded out that he just sat there quietly? She said something about how in retrospect she thinks he was being quiet because he had just murdered Hae. But according to Jay, that's just how Adnan was when high?

R522 I wonder if Adnan was stealing from people or people's homes while working as an EMT.

He was an EMT because he wanted (or his parents) wanted him to be a doctor. Jay also said Adnan was under alot of pressure from his strict overbearing parents.

Adnan and Jay both make it seem as if the borrowing of the car was a one day thing and due to Stephanie's birthday and they barely hung out with each other but other people are saying Jay picked up Adnan after school all the time.

Why would Adnan loan Jay, a black drug dealer he barely knows that is described as the criminal element of Woodlawn, his vehicle all the time unless he was getting a cut from that?

How much does Jen, purported weed dealer, know?

How much does Stephanie, Jay's girlfriend and Adnan's good friend, know?

Did they fuck up some major deal that day and Adnan had to let Jay take the car the whole morning due to an emergency? Did Hae see some drop off and threaten to tell and Adnan freaked out and killed her?

I can see Adnan being far more fearful of his parents' reaction than Jay who apparently was selling the drugs from his grandmother's house.

[quote]He was an EMT because he wanted (or his parents) wanted him to be a doctor. Jay also said Adnan was under alot of pressure from his strict overbearing parents.

East Asian and South Asian parents want their kids to be doctors, bankers, engineers, to basically have what the parents deem "real careers" which pay well. The poorer of these immigrants always wants the American Dream and most do achieve it.

Years ago, I worked with a super talented younger Chinese woman fashion illustrator. She was born in the US. Yet her family still held on to their specific customs. I hired her to work on our yearly swimsuit and accessories catalogs, she illustrated the entire catalogs.

She was such a nice young woman, pretty, very pleasant, easy to work with and extremely talented. The poor women would tell me that her parents simply could not understand how she wanted a career in commercial art. She was no longer living at home, she lived with a gay male roommate, which made her parents think she was actually living with her BF. Which infuriated them even more. She seemed so depressed, even though she lived away from home and had a decent freelance career, she felt her parents were still somehow controlling her life. She was about 27 at the time. I always wonder what became of her.

plot thickens...so no proof Rabia in love with Jay.

An yup,i believe Adnan and Jay were partners in a drug business catering to high school kids.But i do not understand how Adnan became medical tech

What no drug test for that job?I highly(no pun)doubt that.....especially in Maryland during that time when weed was definitely illegal and a dirty test could get you fired.EMT.....sure he was

It doesn't seem like he was a frequent smoker.

It's possible he picked up weed smoking after he got the job and his own car.

I just don't buy Jay or Adnan's story that they were only passing acquaintances due to Stephanie but didn't hang out with each other. Adnan's track teammate said Jay drove Adnan's car and picked up Adnan after school quite often which means they did hang out with each other. Jay was a drug dealer with no car. It's likely Adnan let Jay use his car during the day for business in exchange for cash.

There appears to be many five and ten second calls on Adnans cell from that whole day. Classic drug dealer behavior.

The Leakin Park pings could've very been Adnan and Jay driving around town making drop offs/sales.

Hae's burial happened far later around midnight at Leakin Park.

R528 Becoming an entry level EMT isn't too difficult. Community colleges offer the courses and EMTs are trained to very basic medical treatments. Adnan could have taken the courses at night or during the summer. Paramedics have the advanced training and can do the more advanced treatments after going through the advanced courses and training. I think it was in the Serial podcast where they said that Adnan mostly rode in the back with patients who weren't too critical enroute to the hospitals.

There's a non-fiction book called Ambulance Girl about a middle aged woman who took courses and became a volunteer EMT. In the book, she mostly assisted with stuff like splinting, putting oxygen on patients, and basic stuff. She also assisted in doing in transporting and sitting with people who were being transported from nursing homes or hospices to the hospitals. Adnan may have assisted with similar duties. The book was made into a Lifetime movie with Kathy Bates playing the EMT. The movie gave a good idea of what lower level EMTs do.

It's also interesting how annoyed Adnan got in Serial when Sarah called him a nice guy. He said he's sick and tired of everyone calling him a nice guy.

He also said the main thing he regrets is getting mixed up with "bad friends" and if that didn't happen he wouldn't be blamed for Hae's death.

What does he mean by that?

Bad friends meaning drug dealers? What does he mean by that? Something tells me he isn't just talking about Jen and Jay.

Jay also says something similar about bad friends or hanging in Adnan's circle of people in his interview.

What would you have done differently?

I don’t know if me not moving in Adnan’s circle of people would have saved her life. Like, I don’t know if I sold more weed or less weed that Hae would still be alive. You know what I’m saying? I don’t know if there’s anything else I could have done. Maybe I could have listened better, and taken what I heard more seriously.

Jay also says his first thought when he saw Hae's dead body was how fragile Stephanie is.

He would do anything to protect her.

Did some higher up kill Hae because Adnan and Jay fucked up a deal bad or skimped on paying their plug his proper cut? Dumb and Dumber thought they were so hard and gangster and pissed off a real gangster by fucking with his money.

[R531]

Cool had no idea EMT's were upper and lower leveled.All i know is weed use did cost plenty of folks jobs back then.Unless Adnan wasn't sceened(being non minority...ie Caucasian).... The weed useage he has admitted to just makes me wonder how he got that job or ran track? I do think Hae would be alive had she not associated with any of that bunch.I mean asians do not approve of casual drug use...and you know she smelled like that if Adnan's using her car.Surprised they did not come down hard on her for that alone. Or maybe they did and thats why she is dead???

Adnan was not a frequent weed smoker.

I think dealer sounds more like it.

Jay also talks about Adnan blackmailing him to participate in Hae's burial with 10 pounds of marijuana.

It sounds like he always references drugs when discussing his relationship with Adnan.

It's weird

But why would someone higher up kill Hae in order to punish Jay and Adnan? By that point, Adnan and Hae had been broken up for awhile. Wouldn't they have just gone for Stephanie?

R537, Because Adnan was stealing. Not understanding street code like Jay, Adnan was stealing or not paying his "boss" his cut

Adnan has a habit of stealing.

This is all speculation of course.

R538 yeah, again, it wouldn't make sense to kill Hae. He wasn't dating her at this point. Why her and not someone closer to him? I just personally don't buy that theory.

Did Hae ever take drugs?

R540 I wondered that too. If she was also smoking pot, etc. even if recreationally. I think I remember them saying nothing came up in a toxicology report, but I could be wrong.

Y'all gonna need another thread soon.

Just reminding you.

Any title suggestions for part 2?

My suggestion is Adnan part 2: Is Rabia in love with him?

This story is so fascinating because literally everyone that's a purported suspect seems shady (Jay, Adnan, Don, Jen, Mr S)

Hae was molested as a kid by a family member so her family is shady also. Hae complained in diary entries about how harsh her family was. The anonymous tip about Adnan that came from a man with an Asian accent- could've very well been Hae's older brother.

Hae's mom also blacked out certain diary entries before handing over as evidence.

To add to the rabbit hole even more ( why not?), the police interviewed a teacher at Woodlawn High who said on 1/13/99 Hae seemed visibly upset because of "problems at home" and that she wouldn't be able to make the wrestling meet after school.

Is it possible that Hae gets in a fight with her mom and/or step-dad after school? Maybe she throws a tantrum and decides she's moving to California with her real dad, the conflict escalates, and her mom and/or step-dad tries to restrain her and ends up choking her to death. Hae's step-dad buries her body, then calls the police anonymously to tell them to look at Adnan.

Remember the cop's note about the anonymous caller with an Asian sounding voice?

The family also was highly upset about the Serial and Undisclosed podcasts, and the newfound doubt about Adnan's guilt.

Is it really due to not wanting to re-live tragedy again or because they don't want to revisit the case at all because it might lead to scrutiny of the family?

R545 I think they were able to determine that there was not a Wrestling match that day after school. It never made sense that there was.

But I always thought it was interesting that Hae kept telling everyone she was going to run away and go live with her dad in CA.

She was a Senior in High School with just a few months to graduate. Why did she want to run away? It didn't appear that it had anything to do with school or her social life so what was going on at home that made her want to run away? Interesting they didn't look into that angle.

R547, there's so much wrong with so many parties here it's hard to make sense of it all. Don also said that he remembered Hae wanted to move to California to live with her dad.

It is weird how quickly the family reported Hae missing. They reported her missing at 4pm.

Reminds me of the Howard Beach case where Karina Vetrano's dad quickly reported her missing and "found" her body

Hae's family reported her missing just minutes after she was expected to pick up her cousin from school.

Hae was having problems at home and didn't get along well with her mom. All of her friends knew she wished of running away to be with her dad in California. The night before she broke her curfew to spend the entire evening with Don.

Did this lead to an argument with her mother or stepfather that turned violent?

Hae's mom also didn't want Adnan to get the death penalty. Why?

Wouldn't you want your child's killer to be executed?

[quote]It is weird how quickly the family reported Hae missing. They reported her missing at 4pm.

I didn't realize that they reported her missing so early. I'm surprised that the Police started searching for her so soon after. Is that typical?

They could've been in a heated argument over Don. Don was the reason she was breaking curfew, and Hae was crazy in love with him. She was on her way to see Don, so if she stopped by her house before picking up her cousin, a massive argument may have ensued about another night with Don.

Teachers at Woodlawn as well as friends have all commented on the strict and troublesome home life Hae complained of having to deal with. None of Hae's friends have ever been to Hae's home. Adnan said his first reaction after getting the phone call from police was Hae was going to be in big trouble with her parents when she gets home.

Everyone Hae knew kept alluding to a unhappy household

R551, I don't know. Technically, she was an adult. She was 18.

Karina Vetrano was about 30 and the search for her started immediately after her father reported her missing.

The diamond shaped impression on Hae's collarbone? Is that from a woman wearing a ring? Like a mother for instance?

Something already mentioned above still doesn't strike right.

If we are to believe the accounts that Jay told, Adnan had pre-meditated the murder of Hae.

If Adnan was going to go to the lengths of plotting Hae's death, why would he plan it to happen in broad daylight, knowing that people would notice she was missing, immediately after. Everyone knew she picked up her cousins at 3:30 p.m. It makes no sense for Adnan to plan to murder her prior to that, knowing that people would immediately go looking for her.

R550 There have been cases where murder victims' families don't want the convicts to get the death penalty. In the 90s, there was the Texas Cadet murder case where a teen couple murdered a girl who had slept the boyfriend. The victim's mother said she forgave the killers and asked that they not receive the death penalty because she didn't want the killers' parents to lose their kids.

I vaguely remember some other case where the victim's family said they wanted the killer to die naturally of old age or illness in prison.

Hae's mom also worked from home so she would have been at home after school if Hae arrived there before picking up her cousin. An argument could've erupted where Hae is pissed off her mom won't let her spend the evening ( a school night-it was Thursday) with Don. Mom threatens to take Hae's car/driving privileges. Hae threatens to move to California to be with dad. All hell breaks loose

In some states there is a 48 hour waiting period to report a person 18 or older missing. Does Maryland have that policy?

I live in New Mexico and a few years back I worked at a college housing office. There was an incident where a 20 year old student didn't make a daily call to her mother. The student was a diabetic and had other health issues. The mother called the housing office and said she hadn't heard from her daughter in 12 hours. She asked to be contact with the dorm RA and the dorm RA hadn't seen the girl. The mother told me and my boss over the speaker phone that she was going to contact either the sheriff's department or the state police. My boss told her that NM has the 48 hour waiting policy. She freaked out over the phone and told us she was going to contact a law enforcement agency. Eventually, the student was located because she was staying at boyfriend's off campus apartment.

Apparently the 48 hour rule is a myth.

R555, I don't think Hae's death was premeditated by anyone.

Strangulation and a blow to the head seems like an argument and tussle that went very wrong.

The question is who fought and killed her? Some autopsy experts say her injuries don't seem consistent with someone who fought to death in a confined space like a car. Does that mean she died at home? There's no way a public fight like that would happen outside in broad daylight. It had to either someone's home or a car.

The broken turn signal is what led detectives to believe the fight happened in Hae's car.

Where did the diamond shaped impression on her collarbone come from? What about the unidentifiable female DNA found on her corpse ? The guy with the Asian accent that left the anonymous tip about Adnan? Was that one of Adnan's mosque friends or a relative of Hae?

The more you examine this case, the more questions unravel.

I just did some research and yeah, the 48 hour rule is a myth.

There is a law called, "The Suzanne Law," which states there is no waiting period before a law enforcement agency initiates an investigation of a missing person under the age of 21.

[quoteI don't think Hae's death was premeditated by anyone.

I agree, it doesn't make sense that it was premeditated, however, that's what Jay's story is - that Adnan had planned it all in advance.

Has Hae's father ever spoken to the media?

R562, I don't think it was planned in advance. This was done too sloppily to be planned.

Jay had to say that because the prosecutors wanted to charge Adnan with premeditated murder not aggravated manslaughter.

The "I will kill" written on the back of Hae's breakup letter has also come into question as a possible plant.. Aisha says she did not see that scribbled on the note before. Aisha and Adnan were writing on the back of Hae's breakup note in class and mocking Hae's over dramatic breakup note.

R564, again, I dont think so either and I know that it was probably a story the Police told Jay to say... either way, it never made any sense.

As far as the "I will kill," I personally never understood how that proved he killed her. He could have easily have been writing, "I will kill myself...." with regard to having to deal with Hae's supposed overdramatics.

It's common amongst observant muslim men to threaten death if a woman offends the sensibilities of a man. It's in the Quran, so why not? Adnan may be USA born, but his family is not and they raised him with archaic traditional ideas and values.

Back of Hae's breakup letter passed around during class. Aisha and Adnan joke in second period health class about Hae being pregnant due to her overdramatic breakup note.

I'm going to kill. (Aisha says this wasn't on the note before)

Aisha writes in pencil. Adnan in pen.

Aisha: Here's the thing Hae's pregnant and having mood swings.

Adnan:You should ask her to make a list of all her symptoms and compare it with the list on the overhead.

Aisha:Mean let me ask her Are your breasts tender?

Adnan: (scratches off) You'll probably get to examine.

Aisha: Maybe she was pregnant and had an abortion on Saturday while we went to Adventure World

Adnan: Her clumsy self probably tripped and fell on the way to the clinic and cured an abortion.

Aisha: She would never think she's pregnant and every time I do anything with a guy I think I am

Adnan:Whenever you kiss a guy you probably think you're pregnant, she's scheduled for sonograms and she's still in denial.

Aisha: Not that bad for me, for her hell yeah.

I find it hard to believe that someone that callous and dismissive about the breakup ^ was this obsessed, angry, embittered, vengeful murderer. Which has been the narrative the cops and others have tried to paint of him, despite the lack of evidence supporting that.

He wasn't callous and dismissive but he was amused by Hae being over dramatic which is what caused the jokes on the back of the breakup note.

From even her own friends' accounts, Hae was known to be a bit of a drama queen (like many teenage girls). Her writings about her love of Don (after 2 weeks of dating) and the tedious break up note prove Hae was dramatic but what teenage girl isn't?

Adnan and Aisha

Adnan and Aisha both claim the i will kill wasn't on the note they passed to each other in class.

I'm not a handwriting expert but it seems like Adnan's writing to me.

Which prison is he being housed in?

Th angle regarding Hae's family is interesting. I didn't realize that the police were called at 4 p.m.

It's too bad that there' s no way to find out how late someone was in picking up the little cousin. (For instance, it could be a giveaway that the family was involved and slipped up by picking up the cousin on time).

At what point did the family know Hae was late in picking up the cousin and how did they find out?

If the cousin needed to be picked up by 3:30 p.m. , say the earliest she would get the cousin home would be 3:45 p.m. Why would Hae's family call the police and file a missing person's report after say not showing up for 15 minutes?

Did the school call Hae's family and say that the child hadn't been picked up? In that case, I still don't see them notifying the family until the child had been waiting again, at least 15 minutes.

And what made them so concerned that she was missing, considering she had just spent the night prior out all hours with Don?

Also, I wonder if they have records on Hae's pager as to how many times her own family tried to reach her and how soon after 3:30 p.m. it was, before calling the police.

The police didn't take a look at Hae's pager.

They had shitty detective working this case that clearly bungled this investigation

R575 they didnt? Then how do they know that both Don and Adnan didn't ever try to contact Hae after she went missing?

R575, they were referring to her house phone I think. Adnan called Hae's house phone the night before three times he says to give her his new number.

She was out with Don the entire evening which is why he couldn't reach her till past midnight.

This is the motive the prosecution gave for what set off Adnan.

For some reason I thought they had her pager reccords.

And r576 that doesn't make sense, in terms of the prosecution claiming that's what set Adnan off. Didn't they also claim that Adnan had plotted this whole thing out prior to the night before?

And while Im thinking about it. If all of these calls were based on her home phone, then why is it suspicious that Adnan never bothered to call her after she went missing?

If she's missing, he knows she's not going to pick up her home phone.

True. He dumb.

Don didn't call her either

Yes, R580, and the same goes with Adnan, if it was her home phone, and she's missing.... why would you bother calling it? You'd call her pager.

Interesting that her brother testified that Hae did not have a pager when she died.

Her friends said she did have a pager and they paged her all the time.

Whether she had one or not, the police never found it.

Still think Hae's family was involved.

Hae probably had a pager and kept it hidden from her family.

Which makes it all stranger then. So again, why would they panic and call the police if from what they could tell, she had only been missing for 15 minutes, tops?

Hae's friends said they were all paging her like crazy after she disappeared.

Hae's brother said she didn't have a pager or she "used" to have one. Is he talking about her in past tense because she died? What does "used to have one" mean? According to her friends and teachers, Hae did have a pager and everyone was paging her like crazy.

Incredible that such a basic piece of the story wasn't even investigated by the cops.

Thinking about it some more...

Okay so say the earliest they notice that Hae didn't show up to pick up her cousin is 3:45 p.m. They call the cops at 4:00 p.m. to say she's missing... was that there first call?

Have any of Hae's friends talked about whether or not the family was calling them between 345 and 400 p.m. looking for Hae?

If you were her family, wouldn't you be calling all Hae's friends, boyfriend, work, etc. first? You wouldn't automatically think to call the cops, would you?

Manual strangulation and a blow to the right side of the head is what killed Hae.

The state claimed Adnan was in the driver's seat of Hae's car when he attacked her. That's odd in itself considering her injuries were on the right side. Wouldn't bashing the right side of her head against the car window lead to far more trauma to her face? How does one bash someone's head and strangle someone in a car in a Best Buy parking lot like the state claimed without anyone noticing?

She didn't have much trauma that indicated being attacked in a confined space like a car.

R587 I believe they claimed she was attacked in her car because of the broken lever found in the car.

However, it still didn't make sense because the lever that was broken was apparently on the left side of the steering wheel, not the right side, which is what they were basing it on.

Pothead Adnan of course has no idea whether he paged her or not. He said he thinks he may have paged her once or twice but he's not sure.

He said he was getting most of the info from Asia and the rest of Hae's good friends. It's rather telling that all of Hae's friends including Don and Adnan assumed she ran away to California. She talked about it quite often

The motivation for the killer was likely Hae spending the evening with Don on 1/12.

She did not get home until 12:35 am midnight. Hae has strict immigrant parents who didn't approve of Hae dating or staying out late . She got in trouble with her parents for dating Adnan and having sex with Adnan. Her grandmother used to listen in to her phone calls and her brother used to read her diary. She lived in a house with 8 relatives (her mom, brother, stepdad, grandma, uncle, aunt, and little cousin). She complained of having no privacy and freedom.

Hae was a very strong willed and determined girl. I can see her yelling at her mom for not allowing her to spend another night with Don. "I'm 18 and I can do what I want. You're not the boss of me" kinda thing. Insubordination and lack of respect for Asian elders and you can see how that spat could've turned ugly

Could Hae's mom have taken her on? Hae was an athlete, surely she could have fought off her mother?

Part II in case its needed.

Her mother is a small woman.

The brother noticeably pauses before saying her friend (Adnan) killed her.

Awful translator. Hae's mom doesn't know English.

[quote]She lived in a house with 8 relatives (her mom, brother, stepdad, grandma, uncle, aunt, and little cousin).

So, saying the family was involved. Which of those people in her house would have had the ability to hit and strangle her?

Inez Butler, Woodlawn teacher, told police Hae was upset on 1/13/99 and mentioned it was due to problems at home. Hae also said she wanted to contact her father in California. Hae told Ms. Butler she would not be at the wrestling match later that afternoon.

Didn't Inez's story change a few times though? (I thought it was mentioned that it was also possibly do to Police prompting).

Either way, wasn't it determined that the days were definitely mixed up because there was not a Wrestling match that day.

Ms. Butler's statement to police was from 2/1/99.

This was before Adnan became a suspect/person of interest. The anonymous tip to police came 2/12.

It seems family conflict and a possible move to California were literally everyone's first thoughts on Hae's whereabouts or motivations for disappearing from teachers, girlfriends, to boyfriends Don and Adnan. Everyone wasn't worried about her disappearance because they assumed she ran off to California.

How shitty would it be if the anonymous police call from an Asian guy really came from Hae's family? If Hae's family framed Adnan, they are total pieces of shit.

No wonder they're extremely upset and distressed about Serial and the HBO doc. Is it really about grief or is it about guilt? They don't want the scrutiny

[quote]No wonder they're extremely upset and distressed about Serial and the HBO doc. Is it really about grief or is it about guilt? They don't want the scrutiny

I could understand if it was out of grief. I mean, you see it time and time again where families of victims just want closure and don't want to have t relive it over and over.

But there are too many weird things surrounding the entire case. I particularly now can't get over how strange it is to call the police when she's only been missing less than a half hour.

Yeah i've gotta be honest I find that to be one of the strangest elements here (along with Jay and Steph's lying, or even Don lying about his alibi and not getting home til after the body was buried).

Even the strictest and MOST overprotective parents would wait at least... 2 hours? I would think even more? Before actually calling the police. I say this as someone who has strict immigrant parents and grew up around the same age as Hae. To call after 15 minutes is just too weird. Sometimes a traffic jam or accident along the road could take 15 minutes alone. Or even the young girl she was picking up forgetting something back at school.

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