Referring to other gay men as "ladies" or using feminine pronouns is one of the most self-hating things you can do

Gurl, STFU.

Is it self hating when straight bros say "Hi ladies" to each other?

Can't we have a sense of humor OP?

When straight bros say that to each other and is actually meant as a put-down of sorts

Can we still refer to Lindsey Graham as Miss Lindsey? Pretty please?

Unclench, miss thing.

Of course R4, because it's meant in a derogatory manner, which Graham deserves.

R3, straight bros mean it both as a putdown and a term of endearment. Straight men around college age talk shit to one another constantly.

My apologies, ma'am.

Well, smell her!

My, we certainly have a problem with females.

Be grateful, OP, that I am thinking "vaginator," and not "vaginatrix" (when I think of you at all).

I ain't no broad.

Referring to OP as "ladies" or using feminine pronouns is one of the most OP-hating things you can do. And let's face it, she brought it on herself.

Miss Lindsey to you, Miss Thing.

OP is Miss Ryan Seacrest.

r7 has it exactly right. Men put down each other as a sign of friendship and as a sign of camaraderie. I don't see that is self-hate.

I also think it's interesting that gay men in the last few decades have moved away from the normal gay stereotypes and have moved towards masculine stereotypes. For example, the need to have a perfect, muscled body as opposed to the need to be smart, ready with a quick wit and have a flair for creating a unique environment, whether that be in decorating or clothes or style or theater.

Get her!

OP aka Little Miss Thang is stamping her bitch heels loud & clear.

Toyota

R16 it's part of the greater conservatism in society in general. what passes for liberal and left in America today is right of center by euro standards.

I'm a relatively masculine gay man, and I feel odd calling another man "bro." It just feels forced and unnatural. I prefer calling my gay male friends "sweetie" or "baby," which I think are more gender-neutral than "gurl" or "bitch."

OP sounds butch. His post excites me.

I'll bet he has a deep husky he-man voice.

Lighten up Mary op!

MARY!

The most self-hating thing you can do is to wear summer whites after Labor Day.

OP = TRANSPHOBIC!!!

I like your chutzpah, OP.

I'd hit your pussy hard and make you moan like the little bitch you are.

....

girl, calm down.

Gurlllllllll ms thang

You bitches never disappoint and mean NEVER!

Sorry, not sorry OP. I hope you knew this would happen.

I couldn't agree more, OP. It's like right out of the 50's or Boys In The Band. It was then and is now an embarrassing affectation. Then gay men wonder why so many of them are treated as the butt of jokes and laughing (disgustedly) derision on the part of much of society at large.

It depends on your location. At work: no. Family reunion: no. Among straight friends? no/maybe. There is always that one guy, from accounting hanging in the corner...... Hanging with fellow homos? maybe/yes/sure why not..... Long term boyfriend? YES, YES YES + a million other derogatory remarks because = fun. "CUNT WAKE UP!!!"

I'm so sorry if you don't think I should be reading this thread, but I wanted to share a quick story. I'm a straight woman and I found a crumpled up piece of paper on the floor of an ex-boyfriend's apartment, opened it, and it said "BIG SEXY" with a phone number. I immediately got a sinking feeling, then checked myself and asked him about it. It was just his male friend's phone number, who they nicknamed Big Sexy because he was 6'5" and probably weighed about 250lbs. I thought it was VERY funny and cute.

I don't think there is anything derrogotory or self-hating at all about straight men calling each other ladies, it's funny and cute to me as long as their intent is pure-just to be funny-that's it. So what is wrong with gay men calling each other ladies?

There ARE differences between men and women, it doesn't matter if the men are gay or straight. Men are men from my point of view. I am not including transgender people in this discussion. . I hope I'm being clear, I'm sorry if I'm not.

32 we are derided not because of what we call each other but because of what we do. We fuck each other and the ones on the bottom are seen as weak like females. It's the disdain straight men hold for women and the submissiveness of women and they tack it on to us. Until a bottom can be a bottom without feeling shame for being like a woman, submissive, we will always have to fight from being made a joke of. At the heart of the hostility toward gay men is the hostility of anything connected to the "weaker sex", females.

Now you might say calling each other by female pronouns only helps perpetuate what I'm talking about but using female pronouns also shows that we don't give a shit what they think. We get to keep our masculinity and wear it however we want. Fuck whoever doesn't like it, girl.

OP: STFU, Mary.

Broads don't belong in broadcasting

What about going full trans

I dedicate this to you, OP.

Agree with OP and R32, but this is the wrong audience.

DL is filled with the sort of eldergays who have been calling each other "gurl" for 30 or 40 years and regard that sort of banter as part of their identity.

They are pissed off enough at how much gay life has changed and there's no way you're going to convince them to change that habit.

Gurl, please.

Miss Mary Thang at R40 needs a tampon change, stat!!!

Now, now, op, there's no need for this conniption of yours. Listen, why don't you lie down here for a spell?

I met a "guy" online recently and he was all "bro" with me. Turned up and he was all Mary.

I don't have a problem with that. If I had known he was girly I might have bought him something pretty at Selfridge's to model for me.

Do Brits really say "bro," R44?

This thread is actually kind of funny. Nothing infuriates DLers more than someone telling them to stop acting so damn nellie.

[quote]They are pissed off enough at how much gay life has changed and there's no way you're going to convince them to change that habit.

R40 is part of the 'young hip generation' of gays who obsess about Colton & Jonathan Groff & sneer at 'eldergays'.

[quote]Do Brits really say "bro," [R44]?

They're obsessed with all things American. Didn't you know?

[quote]Rant over

Do butch queens rant?

I think not.

LOL!!!!! Let her have it, gurls!!!!

DL's pussy is on fire today! This thread is gold.

OP got his panties in a bunch.

OP got HER panties in a bunch.

"Saying 'hi ladies' and 'Mary!' and referring to another gay man as 'she' is all about self-loathing, about seeing yourself as less than other men."

Only because you see women as "less than" men.

If I could do a Venn diagram of "People who replied disdainfully to this thread" and "People who replied disdainfully to pro-Sanders threads" there would be very little space between those two circles.

If the world didn't hate women so much, these terms would not be insulting.

[quote]Do Brits really say "bro?

Just the chavs.

They've hit Buddy! Come on, girls!!

[quote]If the world didn't hate women so much, these terms would not be insulting.

Gurl, please...it's only insulting if you see it as insulting.

Some of the queens on this thread need to take a long hard look at themselves.

[quote]They are pissed off enough at how much gay life has changed

Oh, sure...the new generation are so butch it's not true.

Look kids:

It's Sasquatch!

HI MARY

IF straight men call males ladies or feminine pronouns, it is almost in a negative, snarky, or putdown context. It is mostly use to connote a man is weak, effete, girly, whiney, or otherwise not like one of the cool bros. The fact that many men will respond in violence if you even insinuate they are like women or effeminate shows you how much of an insult it is to most men.

This is the type of thing that explains why masculine bi and gay men often don't want to hang around effeminate gay men. Effeminate gay men insist on pushing this type of effeminate identity and mannerisms on regular men, and if regular men object, they get upset as if they are the victim of bullying masculine men. Know and respect boundaries and stop trying to project your sensibilities on others who don't want to adopt them.

Better than "bro," which is only used by retards.

[quote]This is the type of thing that explains why masculine bi and gay men often don't want to hang around effeminate gay

& you think they care? Gurl, please!!

As if anyone is foolish enough to care what "masculine bi men" think.

What R53 said.

It's really no different from straight guys who use "gay" in a derogatory way. OP feels that being female makes you lesser in the way straight guys who use "gay" think being gay makes you lesser. It's just that the latter pisses you off and the former renders you a hypocrite.

OP, how often do you mistake yourself for "masculine"?

Using the feminine pronouns, etc. is just plain stupid. It plays in the hetero stereotypes of gay men. It is mainly used by those that are ultra nelly prisspots. Of course there are a lot of them on DL so don't expect much change here.

OP truly is the daintiest, most delicate, snowflakiest snowflake who ever snowflaked.

And needs to read R53 and R67 again. And re-read them, and re-read them, and re-read them, until something finally registers in that Tic-Tac-sized, Neanderthal brain of his.

The kind of guy that calls other men feminine names is the same type that yells "gay bashing" when they get beat up for doing so.

I wish you a well-deserved bashing, R71.

If you want to call yourself feminine names, so be it. No one cares about it. It's when you disrespect normal men to do it is when you can expect to get a beatdown.

Awww c'mon OP. I was at the pharmacy the other day when two gaylings walked by. The isles were rather narrow and one stood back and ushered the other forward saying, "ladies first". They smiled at each other. It was a sweet moment.

And what's your definition of a normal man when many hetero men don't see simply being gay as normal? Why do you get to define someone and why should they be physically beaten up for it?

Just read through this thread: you guys...er... I mean gurls.... are HILARIOUS..

OP is a SJW humorless cunt.

Check the delusional hoe at R73!!! She's so fucking normal!.......and dreary.

Perhaps the question should be: "Why do many gay men CHOOSE to refer to themselves, and others, by feminine pronouns and names?" I remember it being described as "camping it up" and that it's all in good fun. But why the perpetual use of it with many gay men?

Man!

I feel like a broad...

That's why masculines and effeminates usually don't hang together. Too much conflict with regard to identity and sensibilities. Very different senses of humor and wit.

Good way to rile up the Flames-From-Space Cadets, OP

You will hit 600 responses

42% of the contain the word "Mary!"

23% will contain the word "special snowflake"

95% will be very offended

My name's Graham. Miss Lindsay if you're nasty

Because the DLEGs have been "camping it up" for 40+ years now and it's not like they're going to stop.

OP is a sexist or else he wouldn't see terms such as "ladies" as big putdowns.

She so Cray.

R85 is an appropriator!

[quote]That's why masculines and effeminates usually don't hang together.

Not true.

[quote]I'm a relatively masculine gay man, and I feel odd calling another man "bro."

This reminds of this closet case I work with who you can tell from outerspace is gay, and he tries to call me "man" and "bud" in his nasally gayvoice. I think it's cute but at the same time I want to cringe and laugh.

Gurlllllllllll friend STFU & FOAD...but nobody says Mary anymore just old dudes

Shut your stink wrinkle op.

And that, ladies and gentlemen, is how a girl makes a scene.

Ladies, you *do* know that OP is a little bitch intern at DL hired to write these kinds of posts because we know we'll all pitch fits and fall into them, right? This is clit bait, excuse me, click bait. We all fall down...

You rang, R46?

Go spout your Mascgay crap somewhere else, Chica. Leave my lady parts alone.

[quote]That's why masculines and effeminates usually don't hang together. Too much conflict with regard to identity and sensibilities. Very different senses of humor and wit.

Masculines, humor or wit? Yeah, right.

Bitches, it recognizes our history, and it's an act of empowerment. Gays who are so worried about being masc are usually self-loathing homophobes. Gays who arent scared to gurl up a bit are usually quite confident about their homosexuality, and embrace all parts of themselves- the masculine man who goes to work everyday, as well as the princess inside them who wants to be swept off her feet by the hero of the story.

That's what's is a great about being gay. We didn't need to adhere to society's antiquainted rules about masculinity, femininity, relationship roles, etc. we get to be our own thing, and that's a good thing, miss thing.

[quote] If you want to be a she and be referred to as a "lady" go the Caitlyn route.

What's fascinating is that everyone called Bruce a "she" on DL forever, and then when he became Caitlyn, it went back to "he" for many of the posts about him/her

I'm with R97.

Gurrrrllll!

You've described a certain type of gay R97, one that does get unnecessarily vilified, especially on DL.

But not sure most gay men fit that stereotype.

[quote]Referring to other gay men as "ladies" or using feminine pronouns is one of the most self-hating things you can do

What else is on your list, OP?

^My guess is NOT leaving the toilet seat up because then it would be "fem" if you didn't.

There are loads of signs of internalised homophobia in the gay community. But all the "ladies"/"she"/"Miss" stuff doesn't fall into that category, IMO. It's just a sign of not taking yourself too seriously.

I guess if you hate women you might think it reflects self hatred. But this girl loves women and she knows a compliment when she hears one.

Lighten up, Sally. When you drop trou, are you mistaken for a woman? Yes? No?

I think it's lame BUT it's obvious you have a huge problem with it because you hate women and think they're less than men which means you deserve to be miserable. you're FFed and blocked gurrrl.

OP = Liberace's ghost

OP is clearly the cuntiest cunt whoever cunted.

"The fact that many men will respond in violence if you even insinuate they are like women or effeminate shows you how much of an insult it is to most men."

We're not "most men." We're gay.

ALERT>>> 'you're FFed and blocked gurrrl" <<< ALERT

POWER queen in our midst.

Don't be so hard on the OP! It's probably her time of the month, we can't blame her for being a bit grouchy.

[quote]Referring to other gay men as "ladies" or using feminine pronouns is one of the most self-hating things you can do

Just because it upsets you does not mean it's 'one of the most self-hating things you can do'.

You is silly, gurl.

OP's on the rag.

R111 I'm digging it. He's so pushy.

The thing is this, OP: Many straight men tease each other in exactly the same way. Confident people can take it.

OP is right. Gay men don't want to be women.

You GET it , R97 ! Marry me !!!

R117 = BIG BRAIN.

where did OP go? was this just a troll post, then?

It's because deep down all gays are nellies. All. There I said it.

R117 And joking around changes that?

Nellie sissy!

R122, if you clown around about your sexual identity you are teaching people to treat you like a clown.

I loved when Chelsea Handler would call the straight guys on her panel or even her interview guests "girl". They were like, Wait - what...was that an insult? Is that a new thing? Huh?

There are some really uptight straight guys at my gym who seem to be huge homophobes, so one day I was waiting for (at least) 15 minutes for a machine and just said "girl you done?" - and he had the exact same deer-in-headlights look as Chelsea's guests. And he just sort of said "um, yea sorry" and moved.

OP Pull up your big girl panties and deal with it!

My question:

[Quote]Perhaps the question should be: "Why do many gay men CHOOSE to refer to themselves, and others, by feminine pronouns and names?" I remember it being described as "camping it up" and that it's all in good fun. But why the perpetual use of it with many gay men?

Your response:

[Quote]Bitches, it recognizes our history, and it's an act of empowerment. Gays who are so worried about being masc are usually self-loathing homophobes. Gays who arent scared to gurl up a bit are usually quite confident about their homosexuality, and embrace all parts of themselves- the masculine man who goes to work everyday, as well as the princess inside them who wants to be swept off her feet by the hero of the story.

[Quote]That's what's is a great about being gay. We didn't need to adhere to society's antiquainted rules about masculinity, femininity, relationship roles, etc. we get to be our own thing, and that's a good thing, miss thing.

Excellent, r97! That's the kind of response I love -- intelligent and concise. By the way, did you drop the mike at the end?

[quote]We are not men-who-act-like-women.

Bitch, please. I've known enough famine gay men in my time to know differently.

OP needs to sprinkle some Fresca on her pantishield...

It'll perk ya right UP!

R124 I clown around about everything. But I'm still in charge.

R109, we should shorten that to CCC.

[R122], if you clown around about your sexual identity you are teaching people to treat you like a clown.

Everybody loves the clown.

OP, is this making this thread the gayest thing you've ever done?

R130 = Milo

This thread is an affront to the Sisterhood.

gay men are the lowest on the totem poll even more than women

The clown is the saddest person in the room.

R134 I am not he but we are kindred.

Darfur Orphan forgot to sign her post at R128

Well it's fine to speak this way provided when said homos open their mouths a purse doesn't fall out.

It's bitch code. It's an ironic teasing of each other's femininity when we know that we are even more effeminate than who we're attacking.

R35 Fluidity needs to be a good idea, then, if only to loosen on the stranglehold of M/F under the straight banner. To "them", bottoming equals losing the ability to top. As if the dick's gonna wither and drop off! The penis isn't doing what it "should" be doing (i.e. raging inside vaginas.) So the person attached loses social value, has no honor, a "lesser" man who can't do everything a straight man achieves.

But a woman wearing a strap-on is just kinky. She validates the power of penis; not shameful.

Bottoms are weak and are lesser human beings than tops.

Some 'Great Men' have been bottoms.

[Quote]Some 'Great Men' have been bottoms.

Why, thank you, Barbara!

Nothing like a good masc vs. femme post to get the DLEGs all riled up.

You have to wonder why they do it though, OP, because I mean really, when did you ever see a Grindr profile saying "No Masc. No Jocks. Gay Scene Queens Only!"

I thought so...

r146, true too

What is a DLEG?

"Hated it!"

What an empowering comedy sketch.

R148 data lounge elder gay

No r40 you are wrong. As an elder gay I did not have any friends that used female pronouns when addressing each other that, for me, is a recent development and I notice it particularly among the 35-45 crowd. So don't hang that shit on us.

work that booty

OP? Lighten up, Mary!

OP, in light of recent events, do you feel stupid at all for throwing a fit about something so inconsequential?

Aren't you ashamed?

Ashamed of starting the best thread in quite a while?

Of course he's not.

Girl, I will read you to filth, so do not throw all that shade at me you got tranny mess

Most DL gays will read someone *for* filth.

And OP isn't even a hot mess. Just a mess.

You tell 'em, girl, but don't get your panties too wadded up in the process. It might cut off circulation.

Agreed, OP.

I have been in military briefings where the men were all top brass and the highest ranking officer would begin the briefing with "OK Ladies."

We're talking Navy Captains and Admirals. It's just something men do.

That's clearly the high ranking assholes trying to end their dicks all over everything and remind the mindless hinge heads of the pecking order.

Different side of the same coin

^rub their dicks

Sausage-lovers (aka fish and sissies) are referred to as 'she' ........tuna-tasters(aka men and diesels) are referred to as 'he'.

This is very basic common sense, OP, just what is your problem?

Shoo Frau

We knew a fabulous eldersister in Chicago named 'Pearl'.

Pearl owned a flower shop on Clark Street but because of her serious boozette problem she ended up losin the shop.

When she would walk into a full Annex bar at night she would yell "Hello Girls"! ........and the sisters would reply "Hello pearl"!

One afternoon we were visiting the flat of Kenny the bartender when Pearl dropped by. Kenny served her a martini which must have been VERY strong because after the first sip Pearl nearly gagged and exclaimed:" Oh Marsha - I think I just lost an ovary"!

A you can eat fudge

ffddf

R2, straight bros always have to compete with, dominate each other.

"Hi ladies" is a guise, or to calm that competitive tension between them.

It's not self-hating, as much as self-aggrandizing: his bro minions are the "ladies". The one calling them out is still The Man.

Unless you mean a bunch of "demigender, fluid, brony" scrawny teens on vine, snapchat.

The Idiot Libertarain Troll (tm) does this all the time. He thinks it wins the argument for him.

OP bitch, don't ever go to a drag show, you will surely be triggered !!

Drag shows are for effeminate or girly men

We have noticed that many real men (aka str8 guys) are somewhat nelly!

It's your perpetual fudge hangover

I think the use of female pronouns by some gay men, especially effeminate gay men is the result of the (sub)conscious wounds received during childhood and adolescence due the constant hateful messages we are exposed to since birth that say that men who like men are not real men.

I'm sure many of us grew up unsure of our male nature and felt uncomfortable to idenitify as males because these hateful messages were denying our male nature.

Some may say it is pure game among friends or simply a subcultural practice, but still it stems from the very fact that we grow up hearing that "real men like women" and this reinforced message ends up causing insecurity in our identity and we don't fully see ouselves as males. Hateful messages are catastrophic when children are the recipents.

LOL, glad to see Miss Prissypants OP getting flamed!

I'm still calling Taylor Swift ,he, and Tom Hiddleston, she, no matter what anyone says.

As is obvious from the posts here, it is something some gay men do to make themselves feel special. You're not in the club if you don't get it. (Which is sort of the opposite of arguing that gays are no different from anyone else, except for their sexual,preference.)

It's an act of healthy subversion. We were mocked in the past - and still are - for not being everything that cultural orthodoxy holds up as the masculine ideal. For not being real men. For basically being akin to women, who are seen as the lesser sex. Women are still "given away" in marriage ceremonies by the father to the husband, as property. Adopting this stance through language, behavior, dress and so on, we took that which was meant to put us down and wore it with class, style and pride. When you scratch beneath the surface of any arguments against effeminate gay men (from other gay men) it basically boils down to a desire to be seen as "normal" by the kinds of homophobes and misogynists who think an effeminate man is somehow less of a man because women are the lower sex. It's horseshit.

SHRIEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEK

Preach, R179

Go [R179]!

It's not self-hatred. It's recognition that the hatred of us is coming straight out of the hatred and repression of women.

Btiches gonna bitch

You have to admit that some of the Lindsay Graham stuff is funny. Senatrix still makes me laugh out loud. And when they turn him into Scarlett O'Hara. Fiddle dee dee. That just kills me.

^ ITA. Miss Lindsey and all that it one of the pearls of the DL.

WTF is with this "gurl" spelling? What's that about?

Calling a gay man a woman is an extremely common putdown even here, where you'd think people would know better.

R187 types "mainstream" (and probably thinks this is a compliment).

"Masc" gay men are the humorless third-wave feminist SJWs of the gay world. Quick, get them to a safe space where their preferred pronouns are respected!

Gay men are killed and given sanctions in the Middle East, but what's important is you stop calling them women.

Wanting to be referred to as a man while being a man is not necessarily misogyny. I think that is very simplistic way to put things.

And you don't have to be a "masc" to be want to be reffered to as the male you are.

OP, this is what I think of you

If you want to be effeminate so be it. Just don't disrespect mainstream masculine dudes by projecting that stuff on them. Know that just although you are effeminate and into taking on non-masculine identities and language, most men are not. Moreover you might be provoking regular men into violent responses. So, respect boundaries

There is no way to respect "mainstream masculine dudes." Sorry. Gayhating precludes respect.

[quote]Moreover you might be provoking regular men into violent responses. So, respect boundaries.

Here's my boundary for you, R192. Marry a woman. You want to be straight, ruin her life and get the fuck out of gayville.

R192 for Vicious Cunt of the Thread.

[post redacted because linking to dailymail.co.uk clearly indicates that the poster is either a troll or an idiot (probably both, honestly.) Our advice is that you just ignore this poster but whatever you do, don't click on any link to this putrid rag.]

R189, what's wrong with being a man and preferring to be called a man? I'm seriously asking, because you're loading an awful lot of offensive and unrelated baggage onto what seems to be an extremely simple and honest preference.

Threats of "violent responses" in R192 are what's wrong with you and your ilk, R197.

R189 = Dakota.

My pronouns are NOT a "preference"! Cunt.

^ oops that's for R197

r189 might be over the top, but yes you all are like SJWs with your demands. And the thing is, if some other gay guy rubs you the wrong way, I know you would say the bitch word. We do it all the time here, calling each other bitch.

R199, I was right. You're fucking bullshit nutburgers.

Why do effeminate men think they get to force their gender fluid notions on normal men? Just be happy that people tolerate you for who you think you are and stop trying to make masculine men into your kind

My new business signature line is going to be "Mainstream Masculine Dude"

R204 Why?

I get that it was a way that Olds used to bond with each other like that movie "Boys In The Band" and that even femme guys my age do it because it's a way to take control of hate speech, the way black people use the "N" word.

But it's still really off-putting when someone does it.

Is OP the tired, old 1000-year old "queer is a SLUR" troll? God I hate her. Blocked.

R205, see R192

Yes, R208. It's just that kind of threat that makes me hate the word "mainstream." Gay fascists is what you are. You should have a MMD bumper sticker, too, so people of conscience and good will will know enough to avoid you in public. Have T-shirts made.

R209, melodramatic much?

The mascunts need to submit videos so we can assess their true degree of masc. I sat in a restaurant one night listening to this bunch of queens shreeeeeking about how masc each thought he was. It was as hilarious as it was pathetic.

He's going to nail you for making a stereotypical gay slur R210. Probably tell you your socks don't really go with your pants too.

This is why masculine dudes tend to hang with other masculine dudes, and fem guys hang with fem guys. Too many fem guys don't respect boundaries and try to push their gender fluidity or identification with femininity on other men, who are not having it. I hung out recently with a mixed group of effeminate and masculine guys of all sexual orientations. Although the masculine guys were trying to be nice and tolerant, some of the fem guys were being really going overboard with trying to make the masculine guys play along with their non-traditional pronoun and gender identities. The masculine guys were noticeably uncomfortable and couldn't wait to get away from the fems. It made everything uncomfortable.

Most fem guys are seeking masculine guys, as the personals and dating apps reflect. For some reason, Datalounge has a lot of resident effeminates that are bitter toward masculine and "mainstream" bi and gay men. I think they are jealous or frustrated that they can't attract them. Maybe it makes them feel even more insecure or freakish.

Oooh, get a load of Connie Casserole! So forceful and masculine.

I don't exactly understand why people are discussing masculinity and gender identity as if they were the same thing. They aren't.

Not wanting to be treated like a woman when you are male doesn't necessarily mean you are stereotypically masculine; it only means it is important for you that you are treated as the gender you were born with.

R211 slayed me .

I can totally picture this tragic and savage scene.

Sauvage!

Well ain't she somethin'?!

Mainstream Masculine Marys has a better ring to it.

Dudebros and masc gays are basically male drag kings, aren't they?

R221, you are asserting most men are "drag kings." I guess you're trying to recalibrate what is normal, but come on, man.

r222 It's called "straight acting" for a reason.

[quote] I guess you're trying to recalibrate what is normal

No, I'm not really concerned with what's considered "normal", because "normal" is just a synonym for the most common type; and gay men will never be a common type regardless of how they act or dress. We're a minority. So what?

Queen OUT!

It's good for you.

I feel genuinely sorry for some of you. It must be hell to police your every mannerism for "too much fag shit" or any hint of less-than-1000% masculinity, let alone policing everyone else's as well.

Lighten up, gurl.

I'll slap you Viciously!

I love the masc4masc dudebros. Especially the hot buff ones

OP = Mary-est Mary who ever Mary-ed.

Fuck off, honey, all your stupid post does is show how little you understand gay men.

The femmest of femme gay men knows goddamned well he's a man. You can't deal with forms of address used in casual conversation? Sucks to be you and have so little ability to control what other people say and the words they use to say it.

You have a vagina and you don't want people using "girl" or "she" in what you see as a derogatory way. It's not because you give a flying fuck about gay men. I doubt you even know any gay men. Or any men at all for that matter.

No one has asked women if they feel their se xis being used as a caricature or not being properly respected when gay refer to themselves as women...

r230 You think we should ask all women? Or just a select few? And if you mean the latter, how do you know no one was tragic enough to ask them such a question?

It doesn't matter how they feel about it, R230.

If you don't like the use of feminine pronouns, don't use them. That is your only option. You can try to police other people's language but you will fail.

That sounds very insentitive if you consider the female gender has always been used for mockery, insult and caricature. Women do have a say on this issue.

r233 Which women? All of them??! Consider the lack of logic in what you're saying. If two women standing in front of you referred to each other as "he" would you feel personally violated and would you consider it an attack on all men? It's complete idiocy. The fact you think feminine gay men are mocking women says more about you and your attitude to both women and feminine gay men than it does about those men.

It may be insensitive or it may just be pragmatic. Women have no say on this issue because it's not an issue.

What women have is a choice - a choice whether or not to refer to gay men as ladies or to use any feminine pronoun to refer to any man. That's it.

R233, most women are universally accepted into mainstream society. Gay folks not so much, so you lose this round of the Oppression Olympics, hon. Now fuck off.

I think you sound unaware of the way how historically women have been treated. R234

If women began to treat each other as males that would not de-empower men because men are always in the highest position. Women on the other hand, have always been treated as less than men and their gender has always been used, as I said before, for mockery, unsult and caricature.

This is the way many women feel about gay men using female pronouns and why many of them even don't like gay men. They feel that because gay men don't meet the criteria of being a man according to the way our societies define it they are relegated to the "lower state", that is, that of a woman. So they treat each other like women because they are "failed men". This is why many women usually say to gay men "you are desperate to be like me (a woman)".

r237 You're contradicting yourself there, my love. On the one hand you're arguing that women are treated like second class citizens who are "mocked, insulted and caricatured" and then you say that women dislike gay men because we're so desperate to be a member of their tragic and trampled upon species. You're arguing at cross purposes with yourself. As I said before, your views of gay men and women says more about you than it does about either, because there's no internal logic to what you're arguing. And you're trying to elevate your own dislike of effeminate gay men by aligning it with the idea that you speak for "many women", when you don't.

I think you have difficulty to understand what you read R238

Many women feel their gender is being caricaturised by gay men when they treat each other like women.

r239 You're trying to elevate your own dislike of effeminate gay men by aligning it with the idea that you speak for "many women". You don't.

Don't try to project your own biases on me R240

You clearly have difficulty to see things form outside. Insetad, you try bring down any comment that doesn't conform to your ideas. So one-dimensional.

I not try bring down anything, r241 Just use your own words, argue logic x

You haven't been able to refute what I have exposed. What you are trying to do is to take pride in your own ideas and dismissing what doens't suit your taste. You resort to personal attacks and self-explained conclusions about other users without the slighest intention to see things from outside considering all other opinions, especially those of women. R242

[quote]You haven't been able to refute what I have exposed.

What have you "exposed", my love? It seems to me you have a dislike of effeminate gay men, that much is clear. And then you try to anchor this to your repeated claim to know what "many women" feel. You don't know what many women feel, because you can't know what many women feel. At least you've downgraded your expertise from your initial claim to know what "most women" feel, I guess. As to the stuff about women historically being mocked and insulted: as I say, the fact you feel effeminate gay men are mocking and insulting women says everything about you, nothing else. Are there any salient points I've missed, princess?

Again, you continue with your own biases and self-explained conclusions. You really can't see things outside the sphere you live in. That's why I say this is so one-dimensional. It's all about your own ideas. R244

You reduce the conversation to "you hate effeminate gays" simply because someone mentions another side of the story that is usually ignored. You don't pay attention to what you read and come up with all these conclusions that show your lack of understanding. If you lack the capacity to discuss topics leavig your biases aside then you should refrain from even typing.

And here you simply confirm the side of things I have exposed here. You are using "princess" in a derogatory way, but of course, because you are always right you won't see it. You sir, killed your own discourse.

[quote]Many women feel their gender is being caricaturised by gay men when they treat each other like women.

Too fucking bad.

"Caricatured" or "characterized," R239?

[quote]You are using "princess" in a derogatory way, but of course, because you are always right you won't see it. You sir, killed your own discourse.

I was being ironic, dear. Do you think your lack of a sense of humor might account for your confusion on this whole issue? If you put forward a more substantial argument than "I know what most women feel and most women agree with my dislike of effeminate gay men" then I would be happy to debate the finer points.

Your irony is exactly what women dislike and that is just one of the aspects I was trying to bring to the discussion. R248

I am talking from experience, from watching and hearing women. Unlike you, I'm not taking anybody's side nor do I have the obsessive need to make everybody agree with me; I'm simply bringing another side, one usually ignored by, surprise surprise, MEN so that people can discuss from different perspectives.

[quote]I am talking from experience, from watching and hearing women.

I think we've all watched and heard members of the opposite, sex, r249; but most of us wouldn't patronize them by assuming that experience gives us any insight into the feelings of womankind, nor does it make us their spokesperson. You're not arguing from different perspectives, you're merely overreaching. Can you not understand that?

Princeskas, relax. Each of you is a boor and a bore. Now go home before I make a house fall on you.

[quote] Your irony is exactly what women dislike and that is just one of the aspects I was trying to bring to the discussion. [R248]

Which women? You keep making broad assumptions and asserting them as facts, that's what you keep trying to bring to the discussion.

I think the discussion has only been taking one side to the point of monopoly on the certainty of a given statement and one unwilling to see things from all, sides. Can you understand that? R250

We used to know a chocolate sister who, when we would phone her, would address us" "Well hello, Whorina"

[quote] That sounds very insentitive if you consider the female gender has always been used for mockery, insult and caricature.

And? What else has "the female gender" always been used for? Adoration, reverence, desire, respect, protection, wisdom, affection, nurturing, strength, humor and I could go on.

It's so odd to me that older women who claim to be feminists never have a positive view of women. It's relentlessly focused on the negative. Indeed, they seem to seek out and amplify the most negative and narrow interpretation they can find of anything so that it reflects their own negativity back to them. It's very strange and it's probably why young feminists have moved forward and left them behind.

[quote] Women do have a say on this issue.

Yes, well you've had yours and what "issue" is this, exactly? You think that you get to speak for gay men now and determine what pronouns and forms of address we may and may not use? You're the pronoun police for gay men? Is that why you're here on our site?

We never asked you to speak for us, we don't want you to speak for us and we definitely don't need you to speak for us. Not to put too fine a point on it, dear, but please - just sit down and shut up.

Funny thing is that Milo Y's cohorts (white, male, ostensibly heterosexual) love to decry SJWs and their nonsensical trigger warnings and safe spaces. But the most effective way to trigger these men is to refer to them as female pronouns. They'll morph into a Trigglypuff and run to a safe space faster than you can FF the OP.

You don't speak for gay men so don't try to hold the flag no one asked you to take R255

Have you ever considered the fact that some people don't take sides only expose a topic from different perspectives? If not, well, there you've some homework to do.

Oh yeah

Pronoun Grammar Lesson:

Sausage lovers are "SHE"

Tuna tasters are "HE"

End of lesson.

This is why I only hang with masculine or mainstream guys.

I also be hanging with the butch gals, yo.

Why some only hang out with masculine guys?

^ cause that's where the man go up into the man

As a child we thought that by imitating our mother we would attract men.

It was not until many years later that we learned that in order to attract hot stuff we had to impersonate a man ourself!

Most women don't talk annoying like effeminates

That's because women tend to speak with more fluctuations while men tend to speak more flat, so if a man's speech pattern resemble more that of a woman it will sound unusual to you because it less comon for you to hear men speak like that. Women have higher pitch and can reach higher notes men usually can't.

No matter how butch Bradley cooper acts,she will always be one of the girls.

Uh, Bradley's a dude

Uh .Bradley's a closeted Queen. That makes him fairground for the female pronoun.

r201 here. How you guys feel about this video of Michael Sam chewing out this guy by calling him a "trifling ass bitch"?

This is exactly what Im talking about, some of you don't think masculine guys use feminine pronouns when speaking to other gay men. But if they get pissed and start feminizing their target by calling them a bitch, it's ok with you I guess.

Girls! Girls! You're ALL insufferable.

Yeah, masculine dudes, including athletes, sometimes call dudes a "bitch" as a huge insult. It's a notable exception to the rule

What R269 said.

Gender trading.

Not cool

I understand that guys using female pronouns may be a turn-off or it may make you confused, etc. but I don't get the part that using female pronouns is a sign of self-hate.

Hmmmm

Why do some always post "Hmmm"?

Most young guys today don't care if someone wants to be gender fluid with their gender identity and language for themselves. The problem is that a lot of gay guys try to impose that fluidity on others, who most definitely do not take kindly to it. I have seen effeminate gay guys rudely refer to other guys as "she" and then get indignant when the other dude objects. No, it was rude for you to call a guy "she" when you know most dudes think it's an insult. You are lucky you don't get punched out.

I don't think it is a sign of self-hate; I think in many cases it is a sign of how much they have internalized the thought that they are not "real men" due to growing up being the object of homophobic attacks on their identity as males. They know they are men, but the psychological abuse they have been object to somehow has convinced them that they don't meet "all the criteria" to call themsleves men. They don't think they are women; instead, by using female pronouns they are subconsciously showing they have been rejected from the "bortherhood" and sort of created their own identity where they can feel safe R276

Kind of...

True op

Sausage lovers are ladies, tuna tasters are men!

Lighten up, Francesca!

I think the 'cunt' usage needs to stop.

Fascinating how a thread can magically pop up months or years later.

OP has a point though

It's probably as R280 describes it when campy femme gays use it among themselves.

But when it's used against gay men who are not femme and have assimilated into the mainstream, there's a strong similarity to the way successful blacks are derided by other blacks for "acting white" or "talking white."

There are a number of DLers who think there is only one way to be gay, and that anyone who is masculine is just suppressing his inner femme.-- calling them "gurl" or addressing them as "she" or "toots" has that ring of "you think you're better than me, do you? Well I'll show you."

But there are a lot of gay men who do act like women. They're still men though.

This is a great illustration of why masculine guys rarely befriend or hang with observably effeminate guys. They have such different sensibilities and outlooks that they are prone to violently clash with each other when in close proximity. Flamboyant effeminate like to push the envelop and force mainstream guys to be more relaxed about gender expression, but it only deepens the chasm and volatility.

Heterosexual people, especially heterosexual men can cause tremendous harm to a child's identity as a little male. Boys are usually heavily bombarded with messages and instructions of how to be a "man", all of them exclusively linked to hetrosexuality; anything outside the arbitrary hetrosexual realm is violently vilified and made fun of. Basically, what in their eyes defines masculinity is the attration to women. If you are not attracted to women you are not a "real man". The "real man" thing has a lot of hateful content in it towards those boys/men who are not attracted to women.

Those types of hateful messages harm the sense of identity in a gay boy who is realising he is male. He grows up thinking he is not a real man but a failed project of a man. This causes a disconnect with other boys/men, male bonding doesn't happen, he feels uncomfortale around other men having internalised the thought he is a failed project of a man and sees himself as inferior to other men.

Women,possiblky becais eo their motherly instinct are more compassionate towards kids regardless of anything so some gay boys find shelter around women. Of course, they become roles models to look up to.

Referring to each other using female pronouns is creating a new category where they can feel safe and acquire an identity of their own. While they understand they are men, they feel disconnected and not "man enough" to own the whole title.

If anything, it is not the highly effeminate gay man's fault, but it is especially heterosexual men's fault because of the psychological abuse they have inflicted on gay boys on a societal scale.

WELL-stated and true

Sometimes it is easy to tell a very effeminate gay man to "man up" without understanding that the reason why he seems so dramatic, so female-like with that in-your-face attitude, for example, is the result of a life of bad experiences that took their toll on his identity as a boy/man that has been harmed.

This burden is especially on heterosexual men who have failed to protect and guide gay boys properly so that they can grow up stable psychologically.

I don't just blame heterosexual men for all of it. I think some men are innately more feminine than the average, and these minds are ruthlessly bullied and ostracized. They are isolated from other boys and men, which only increases their effeminate traits and disregard for conventional male interests and attributes

This is why I avoid effeminate guys. THey have no respect for the fact most masculine mainstream guys want nothing to do with their gender-bending tendencies. Then, they get all butthurt when normal dudes hit back when they are insulted

Normal doesn't mean good or moral.

Violence is normal in islamic countries.

"Violence is normal in islamic countries."

But of course the crime rate in mostly Christian America is so low *snicker*

OP, you are a cunt.

"Christian America"?

I remind you thta America is a continent; not a country R294

[quote]I also think it's interesting that gay men in the last few decades have moved away from the normal gay stereotypes and have moved towards masculine stereotypes. For example, the need to have a perfect, muscled body as opposed to the need to be smart, ready with a quick wit and have a flair for creating a unique environment, whether that be in decorating or clothes or style or theater.

Girrrl, you have it completely backwards. Older gays pre 1970' did NOT have perfect muscled bodies. Most were skinny fat, obsessed with shopping, cloths, the theater and decorating. A flair for creating unique environment? How much more of a stereotype can you be. If anything, modern gays are moving away from that somewhat into no traditional gay rolls like doctors, lawyers, pro sport players, tech support, and digital content, etc. Beards, tatts, were also not common back then, now they are common place masculine trade marks.

[quote]Sometimes it is easy to tell a very effeminate gay man to "man up"

Tell me about it. Some women hags we went out with in NYC a few years back pulled that line on my partner when they wanted him to treat for all the liquor!

Does that work in reverse? Can I say "act like a lady for a change"?

I think most sociologists and psychologists have failed to see that homophobia can really mess up with a gay child's gender identity and gender expression.

Hmmmm

Yeah, some women actually don't like it when some gay men use female pronouns and refer to themselves as women. Women feel like they usurp their identity in some way. Other women usually see the phenomenon with sarcasm and think those men are desperate to become women.

It's sad

I try to be tolerate of different people and quirks, but I can’t be friends with any male that misgenders men by calling them female pronouns or names. It’s supremely annoying, nasty, bitchy, and ignorant. No need subjecting myself to nasty people who call men “gurl” or female pronouns. It’s nasty drag queen behavior.

Tell me, Mary!

r303 is a douche with no sense of humor. You must hate the Miss Lindsey threads!

R305, your sensibilities aren’t universal. If someone doesn’t want to be misgendered, decent people don’t disrespect them by doing it anyway. Self-absorbed jerks insist that their very unusual subculture sense of humor be thrust on the unwilling .

And you're such a decent person yourself.

This is why masc and fem can’t hang out together. A chasm Of sensibilities.

^ Fuck off to church and go play a sport then.

"Self-absorbed jerks insist that their very unusual subculture sense of humor be thrust on the unwilling ."

Wow, you really do have no sense of humor. You sound dumb as well.

It's very masc and mainstream to sound dumb.

Tuna-tasters are "he" and sausage lovers are "she"!

Bump

It’s grating

Bump