Arthur miller and Marilyn Monroe

Monroe tended to pull a sort of bait-and-switch in relationships, that always led to hard feelings. At first she was all charm and thoughtfulness and sexiness, but once someone had fallen for her she would let her demons out and become horribly needy, with fits of rage and drunkenness and crying jags. Miller wasn't the only one who fell in love with her and ended up feeling trapped and betrayed, and yes, when your spouse turns out not to be the person she seemed to be people do feel betrayed.

She may well have had BPD.

Because he was an ass married to an addict. He hated her because she was more talented than he was.

I never heard of such an outlandish notion...

Do you think he was insecure about having such a beautiful wife?

She stroked his ego with her big, soft breasts and pretended to be an intellectual so he wouldn't feel totally ridiculous for marrying her. Once his balls were good and empty he woke up to the realization that she was a semi-illerterate bimbo just like everyone had said. His stomach turned as she posed for photos pretending to read Finnegan's Wake. Because by that point, Egg Head needed her money. Think how it feels for a red blooded het man, a celebrated wri-tah, an INTELLECT, to discover he's a whore.

r5 This.

The Millers (Arthur and Inga) were not immune to how the game was played, and were as compromised by money as anyone else.

They were frequent dinner guests to the theater producer Laura Pels at her River House co-op. Ms. Pels, a hugely wealthy, divorced. French faux intellectual was a huge George W. Bush Republican and she probably loves Trump too. An ignorant, semi-deranged moron with 100 million of her ex's money who produces plays in NYC, she was a huge sponsor of Miller's work. How they suffered through countless evenings of her shrill, inane jabbering over dinner was beyond me. They had to have been appalled by her idiotic fascist ramblings which were utterly at odds with everything Miller's plays are about! She was and is too stupid to know any better, and they tolerated her for her ability to mount his plays. They were as charming as Pels was (and remains) repellant.

Semi-illerterate?

She didnt want to be considered a "dumb blonde" anymore so in the late 50s she started posing as part of the literati and hired Milton Greene to take artsy fartsy pics of her instead of the cheesecake stuff she always did before. Miller bought it for awhile but she grew tired of the act and her uneducated and unsophisticated tastes betrayed her. Plus she was a pill addict and highly damaged woman from a lifetime of sexual abuse and objectification. When Egg Head got tired of her big soft titties there wasn't much there to keep him interested.

I do my serious reading in a bathing suit on a teeter totter. Don't you?

Yikes, Marilyn had some ugly deformed feets.

R5 is probably spot on. Funny too.

Lots of women who wore those pointy spiked heels throughout the 1950s have/had ugly deformed feets.

She had Daddy issues

Arthur Miller was quite the sexy nerd when he was a young man. Though, by the end of that marriage, it had all been sucked out of him.

Miller was good at sloughing off his loved ones. His son born in the 1960's with Down Syndrome was institutionalized as a newborn, never to be visited or even mentioned by Miller, although the boy's mother did visit him in the institution for years.

Marilyn - Dan Bern

"With all her radiance she was surrounded by a darkness that perplexed me." -Arthur Miller on MM

she wanted a savior, and he wanted to save her. They probably had an unhealthy relationship from the start, a kind of father-daughter relationship as Arthur was much older and Marilyn had daddy issues.

Miller tried to save her, but eventually he realized he couldn't save her. This often happens with people who are borderline, they are the perpetual victim and there's no helping them and eventually the people closest to them just give up.

Classy, elegant MM between the U.S. ambassador to England and her playwright husband.

Miller looks exceptionally dishy in the above photo. Handsome profile!

R5: I know someone like that. Alternative Hero to Silly Little Whore in three steps.

she actually seemed to like the intellectual side of things

She had several miscarriages while married to him, and it made her feel inadequate, caused friction.

R11 R13

MM's feet weren't deformed nor were they particularly misshapen from wearing pointed pumps. She's relaxing in the photo and possible stretching her toes.

Oh, and it's 'feet' not 'feets'. I can only imagine your pluralization for shrimp.

"Because he was an ass married to an addict. He hated her because she was more talented than he was."

What utter bullshit. She was NOT "more talented than he was." What a stupid statement.

As for their union...well, it's not that hard to understand. She liked older men, father-figure types; he was serious and intelligent and admired for his brilliance as a playwright. She thought being married to such a man would show people that she was more than a dumb blonde sexpot, that she had depth and substance. She thought he would take care of her. He was certainly attracted by her beauty; what man wouldn't be? And he was touched by her sensitivity and sadness. They fell into what they both thought was love. But Marilyn must have had her doubts because before their wedding she got cold feet and thought about not going through with it, but didn't want to "disappoint" the people who'd shown up for their wedding so she married him. Supposedly she did the same thing with Joe DiMaggio, that is, have serious doubts right before the wedding. Anyway, they married and it was a disaster. Not only was Marilyn a drug addict she was mentally ill and expected Miller to be her savior. During his marriage to her he barely wrote anything, because taking care of her was pretty much a full time job. He hung in there longer than any other man she'd been with (five years) but divorced her in order to save himself. They were two people who never should have gotten married. But I guess it was one of those things that can happen between two famous people: they become enamored of each other and it later becomes clear that the relationship was a big, big mistake.

r24: "Feets" was used deliberately. We have a much-beloved DL "feets" troll who gleefully reports on his favorite stars in "bare feets" or even better "wearing flip-flops". Raul Esparza's feets are especially notable.

My Grandfather knew them both, at the time. She was deeply depressed. Melancholy and quiet, all of the time. Often casually dressed to the point of looking unwell, like she wasn't caring for herself, except when working. She went through a miscarriage with Miller. I think he didn't know what to do to make her feel better and that was when things went downhill.

Like many uneducated girls who come from poverty, she always seemed to be with men for the fantasy of what they represented. That innocence can be addictive because it makes you feel special but the flip side of it is that it can be exhausting trying to function as a walking symbol rather than a flesh-and-blood, human being.

Marilyn would not have been so miserable if she was dumb.

Seems like Miller was an asshole.

R29, based on what? You're ridiculous.

R30

You think R29 was the first to reach that conclusion ?

R28 I never said she was dumb, I said she was uneducated and that bothered her. There is a difference between being intelligent and being educated. She attached more respect to Miller's world of nebbish snobs and academics than it deserved. He couldn't understand what was bothering her because he didn't idealize his social circles like she did and thought Monroe shouldn't feel insecure in them, nor did he understand how her depression made it even harder to interact with people. He was well-meaning but couldn't relate.

Years ago I worked with Miller's younger sister, actress Joan Copeland. She loved to tell anecdotes about Marilyn who she had clearly adored and admired.

How did he react to her untimely death?

Jewish-Shiksa marriages never work out.

Arthur had sizemeat-face!

Colton Haynes is our Marilyn.

[quote]His son born in the 1960's with Down Syndrome was institutionalized as a newborn, never to be visited or even mentioned by Miller

Miller did eventually visit his son before he died, at the urging of his son-in-law, Daniel Day-Lewis. DDL has been a big advocate fir people with disabilities ever since he did My Left Foot, and he was appalled by Miller's treatment of his son and tried to change his attitude.

[quote]How did he react to her untimely death?

He didn't send flowers and was quoted as saying that he would not be attending her funeral as she wasn't really there anyway. Most who knew the two of them tended to encapsulate MILLER as having been a cold fish.

R39 To be fair, Joe D. controlled that funeral and only allowed close family and friends, nobody from Hollywood. Dean Martin was apparently turned away at the entrance. I wonder if Joe would've allowed Miller there or not anyway.

"How did he react to her untimely death?"

With indifference. This is from a good biography of Miller by Martin Gotffried:

"Monroe's New York public relations representative , Arthur Jacobs, called Miller to personally deliver the news of her death. His terse response was "It's your problem, not mine." Jacobs replied, "Arthur, you were always a shit," and hung up."

He didn't attend her funeral or send flowers. From the biography: "His only recorded reaction, in a letter written to a friend, was that "The earth shocks for a moment, but her life-death will not enlighten many."

And "The only emotional impact her death seemed to have was in terms of his work. He would deal with the subject in his play ("After The Fall"). This is how he always expressed himself and his feelings --in place of directly experiencing emotions he conceptualized them, and the years of psychoanalysis had done little to change that."

Marilyn practically sitting in Yves Montand's lap in front of Arthur.

Arthur Miller was hung.

Marilyn and Yves Montand carried on quite openly. Their affair was no secret. She was crazy about him and though he would leave his wife for her. He didn't. For him it was just another affair. She was devastated by his rejection. I have no idea why women found Yves Montand attractive. I thought he was a pretty ugly guy.

R33 what did she say about Marilyn?

She probably refused to kiss his ass.

Finnegan's Wake?

There are literature professors with PhDs who can't get through that book.

They should have aimed a bit lower.

He was mean as a snake to her. She recoiled when she saw him coming. I didn't know who he was but he was scary mean. The look he gave me was nasty and I was just a kid. He snapped his fingers at her like she was a dog.

erectile dysfunction

Miller's play After the Fall was inspired...by his marriage to her.

I had to read "After The Fall" in high school for some reason, and even then it struck me as false and self-seeking. How was it received when it came out?

But yes, Martin did have a terrible way of treating her men, she'd draw them in by appearing to be all innocent and sexy and perfect, and once they'd fallen for the person she pretended to be, she let out all the bottomless neediness and crazy. It was a horrible bait-and-switch, but she never stopped and never figured out why it always got her dumped.

Verificatia of Arthur's massive sizemeat (rumored)?

I think it is considered one of his lesser plays. I remember that the structure was all over the place. I have a Broadway recording somewhere in my old LPs in the garage.

It was met with outrage in the 60's and it pissed off Jackie Kennedy. In my scrolling, I see that there have been a few revivals in New York.

Did she sleep with Milton Greene? Eventually she fired him from their business partnership but I can't find much info about it online. Amy Greene (Milton's widow) has given many interviews over the years claiming HER hubs never boinked MM, but I'm hesitant to believe that.

If Marilyn had had ugly feet (or feets if you prefer) they would not have featured (feetured?) her feet in now-iconic scenes such as this one:

Everything about MM was gorgeous including her tootsies....

I can't believe I'm saying this, but I actually think her feet are nice---slender, unlike the rest of her pudgy little body...

Hi Misfit Girl at R48. Aren't you the person who actually was on The Misfits set? I do know that I read a thread a few years ago in which people believed you and you were treated with much respect here. I wish some of the older DLers who left would come back. I really miss them.

Marilyn's feet look fine except in this pic they seem to need a pedicure with lots of lotion/oil. I dare say a straight male would not be able to concentrate only on her feet in this photo.

^^Is that pic photo-shopped?

Yeah, R58, I remember those stories.

R58 yes that's me. I was at the Misfit set and saw Arthur Miller be nasty mean to Marilyn. He shamed her. If I talk about Marilyn here I usually sign as Misfit girl.

Happy New Year, Misfit Girl!

Great thread! Marilyn had her problems (that's an understatement), but Miller has always come across as smug, arrogant, condescending, and totally humorless. (As well as seeming quite full of himself).

It seems like it would have been *very* challenging for any (relatively) emotionally healthy woman to be married to him; I can't imagine how Marilyn--as messed up as she was--was able to deal with him and his 24hr a day bad moods, or what that did to her already messed up psyche. I imagine she came out of it much worse than he did, because he *definitely* seems like the stronger, more willful of the two of them.

Whatever else you can say about him, Miller hung in there longer than any other man she'd been with. They were married five years. He really did try to make it work but when he saw it was impossible he threw in the towel and got the hell out to save himself. Who could blame him? It was just like Laurence Olivier and Vivien Leigh; he had to get out or go crazy himself.

I can't defend Miller but he did have a very long and apparently healthy marriage with Inge Morath.

R65, but Olivier still cared for Leigh and understood she was ill. Miller was openly hostile to Monroe.

R42. Had him and Yves.

Arthur Miller was a fucking CUNT, and everyone knew it. And R30 can go fuck himself, stupid twat.

Documentary on YouTube about the making of The Misfits, including some dish about Arthur and Marilyn's relationship...

Marilyn Monroe's persona was utterly enchanting, and she was a gorgeous woman as well as a gifted artist.

She was also an alcoholic and drug addict with more baggage than United Airlines handles in a year.

You can't be married to someone like that for too long and preserve your own sanity. Maybe Arthur Miller did end up being mean to her in some instances...but drug addicts and alcoholics turn into monsters when they're using.

Trivia: Faye Dunaway played the Marilyn character [italic] (cleverly [/italic] disguised under the new name "Maggie") in Miller's play AFTER THE FALL, which only broadcast once in 1974. It costarred Christopher Plummer. I think it's never been available for home viewing or rebroadcast after that. Something to do with the copyrights?

If someone from DL could get on that and clear up the issue by Xmas...I want a copy!

^ Me too!

[quote]R72 ^ Me too!

We need a #MeTo(ForDunaway'sAfterTheFall) movement

You can view it in person at television broadcast meseums in L.A. and NYC, but that's it : (

Miller was a complete humorless pompass shit who married Monroe for her $. It was her $ that paid for his farm and her $ that paid his child support. He had no sense of humor and was passive aggressive. Monroe described their sex life as so so. I doubt very much if he was hung. She stayed married to him as long as she did because she didn't want to be seen as in another failed marriage. She was smarter than he was and more successful and she let him know that frequently which probably hurt his fragile ego. He treated his 4 th child who was autistic like utter shit and almost never saw him in 35 years. Miller was a dreadful human being and I think Monroe figured out about the time of the wedding which is why she almost backed out

MM probably was a borderline personality or in the neighborhood---her sexiness and vulnerability drew in men, but her neediness mood swings, psychosomatic stuff, substance use turned pushed them away. The guys attracted to someone like that are not necessarily paragons of mental health--some exploit the vulnerability, others may be controlling in a way that is more paternalistic. Miller does not seem like a particularly warm cuddly person, but his intellectual image probably was important to MM. I doubt that she was very good with money--if he benefited from it, it isn't like she would have invested in blue chip stocks instead. He got some glamour, someone whom he might have seen as a potential protege, but in the end it was a toxic mix. I don't think an ex-husband would want to attend a funeral organized by another ex-husband, Miss Manners probably would say it would be tacky, in any event.

Greene had an affair with Monroe while he was shooting her in CA -- and his then-fiancée Amy was two months' pregnant and waiting for him in NYC (a Glamour or Mademoiselle editor, I think, so well-educated.) Greene went into partnership w/Monroe to form Marilyn Monroe Productions and invested his own money in the deal, which must have galled Amy. Monroe would visit them on weekends at their suburban Connecticut home where documentary was filmed. Google the clip and watch Monroe and Greene while Amy briskly tells the interviewer they never had an affair. Monroe IMO just had a compulsion to use others and break up their marriages so she could have what they had.

she wasnt an alcoholic and she wasnt a drug addict except she was addicted to sleeping pills due to an especially dreadful problem with insomnia. Imagine you are the biggest star in the world mostly due to your looks. You cant sleep at night and you look like shit in the morning and you have to get up at 5 30 AM to face the cameras. If you cant perform and look beautiful..... after one or two box office flops, you are done....that is the stress of MM at the end of her life. Like many people she believed prescriptions to be the miracle cure and she had too much faith in her last psychiatrist which proved to be her undoing., llterally . Yes she slept with Milton greene early in their association, Amy Greene knew it as hated Monroe for it which shows thru to an extent in her interviews now. Milton Greene was also bisexual. No she didnt ever have an affair with Robert Kennedy and yes she had a one night stand with JFK and became obsessed with him only because he was the one man she couldnt really snag for more than a one night, and it bugged the shit out of her.. She had serious mental health issues that lithium treated somewhat successfully and those mental issues were inherited from her mother. Yes Monroe was brillant, extremely talented, and probably the most beautiful woman of her era. No she didnt commit suicide and no she wasnt murdered. And yes she met her father towards the end of her life.

^ She met her father? Source, please. Or elaborate. I've never heard of that. Thank you.

So her death was an accidental overdose then? I've thought that, without much evidence. I think that when Miller was under investigation by HUAC or something related, Monroe was very supportive, which was brave. Also, she helped Ella Fitzgerald get a gig at some big LA club that was biased, by telling the management that she (MM) would show up at every show. There's a nice shot of the two sitting together.

My own theory is that, with help from friends, she faked her death, and got the hell out of Dodge. She is now a potter in Saskatchewan. And a vegetarian.

I don't believe ANYTHING this "Misfit Girl" says. Miller, by all accounts, was NOT "mean as snake" to Marilyn. In fact, the tales from the set of the Misfits say that SHE was cold and nasty to HIM. John Huston said that she once left Miller "in the middle of the fucking desert" by slamming her limo door in his face and taking off, leaving him them (Huston rescued him from being left stranded).

After Marilyn's death, Miller was definitely not stricken with grief. He knew she would eventually end up dead from an overdose, either accidental or intentional. He said it plainly: "she was beyond help."

[quote]R77 she wasnt a drug addict except she was addicted to sleeping pills

Interesting that prescription drugs are suddenly not...drugs.

For R80

"Him Too? How Arthur Miller Smeared Marilyn Monroe and Invented the Myth of the Male Witch Hunt."

In short, Miller's infatuation/affair with Marilyn, while married to his first wife, was the inspiration for the Abigail Williams/John Proctor love affair in THE CRUCIBLE. That's why Miller turned Abigail from an 11-year-old (as she was in real life) to a young woman (aka femme fatale), and John Proctor is the hero whose marriage and life are ruined by a conniving temptress. It also discusses AFTER THE FALL, which has been discussed at length here.

[quote]In fact, the tales from the set of the Misfits say that SHE was cold and nasty to HIM. John Huston said that she once left Miller "in the middle of the fucking desert" by slamming her limo door in his face and taking off, leaving him them (Huston rescued him from being left stranded).

Maybe she had a reason?

[quote]No she didnt ever have an affair with Robert Kennedy and yes she had a one night stand with JFK and became obsessed with him only because he was the one man she couldnt really snag for more than a one night, and it bugged the shit out of her.

One of her publicists ,Michael Selden, has confirmed the JFK/BOBBY affairs, and that he and Pat Newcomb and others on her team worked relentlessly to keep the public from finding out, though it was common knowledge in Hollywood. He said they had a symbiotic relationship with the press (i.e., they provided juicy info about other actors/clients in exchange for their silence) to prevent anything from leaking.

Misfit Girl has been here off and on for years and her info has always been solid. She's one of the few insiders we have who is trustworthy.

[quote]Monroe IMO just had a compulsion to use others and break up their marriages so she could have what they had.

LOL! You make her sound like Peyton Flanders from THE HAND THAT ROCKS THE CRADLE.

"Trust is her weapon. Innocence her opportunity. Revenge her only desire."

R 85 Thank you.

I saw what I saw. She was alone talking to me. Huge backyard, she sitting under a big tree, script in her lap, We talked for somewhere around 30 minutes.

I did not know who Arthur Miller was.

But - he approached where we were, in a angry gait - she saw him approaching. It was as if she shrank. As he came upon us, he glared at me - a kid. Then yelled something nasty at her. She shrank even more. I remember putting my hands on her arm as she started to get up. She told me it would be okay. He snapped his fingers at her like she was a dog and pointed to her trailer. Glaring at me once again. As she walked towards her trailer, her shoulders slumped, her head down. I hated him. Whoever he was I hated him. And she was diminished, maybe even afraid of him.

Later that day, Marilyn showed up to film, he was with her. (And yes she said hello to me by name in front of everyone.) I asked my Mom who that man was - she answered Arthur Miller, her husband. It made me sick inside.

I did not see him with her again. But I did see that moment in time. I think I saw the real Arthur Miller.

R 87 here. Should have signed Misfit Girl.

"One of her publicists ,Michael Selden, has confirmed the JFK/BOBBY affairs, and that he and Pat Newcomb and others on her team worked relentlessly to keep the public from finding out, though it was common knowledge in Hollywood. He said they had a symbiotic relationship with the press (i.e., they provided juicy info about other actors/clients in exchange for their silence) to prevent anything from leaking."

From a biography of Monroe ere is all that is known with "absolute certainty" about Marilyn Monroe's relationship with the Kennedys. Her association with them lasted a mere six months:

Marilyn met JFK at a dinner party in the 1950s. She met him again at the National Democratic Convention in July of 1960. Those meetings were passing and perfunctory.

A year and a half went by.

Then the six month time clock began.

Marilyn met Bobby Kennedy on February 2, 1062, at Pat and Peter Lawford's home.

She saw JFK in March 1962 at a dinner party in New York.

She slept with JFK on March 24 and possibly March 25, at Bing Crosby's home.

She performed at JFK's birthday celebration at Madison Square Garden in May 1962.

She saw Bobby at another dinner party at Pat and Peter Lawford's in June 1962.

Other than telephone calls she placed to JFK, which he apparently did not take, and to Bobby, which he and his secretary apparently did take,that's it. Anything else just cannot be proven. Of course that doesn't mean it didn't happen. JFK and Bobby could also have been secretly living in her guesthouse, too, and that can't be proven or dis-proven either.

Miller may well have been a pompous and unfeeling ass but he was a brilliant playwright and unique voice in the theater who wrote one of the most enduring and iconic plays in dramatic literature, Death of a Salesman. He also wrote The Crucible, A View from the Bridge and All My Sons, all highly engaging and hugely popular plays that are still performed in thousands of productions all over the world to this day. Broadway rarely sees a season go by without a revival of one of his plays.

While I totally believe and sympathize with Misfit Girl's account of what she saw that day, I'll just play Devil's Advocate and wonder if Marilyn had been expected on the set all morning (all day?) and Miller was at his wit's end trying to get her to appear so filming could commence. Doesn't excuse his rude behavior....but who knows what he'd already been through with her. And I say this a life-long fan of MM.

Miller and MM were both extremely complex and extraordinary artists. Their relationship could never have been easy.

Yes, Miller was a dick and Marilyn was likely to have BPD. But what about her intellectual pretensions?

She wanted the public to believe that she was more than the bubbleheads she played onscreen, that even though she had no education she read great books and studied at the feet of Staniskavski and married playwrights, and ought to be taken seriously. All other things in their relationship aside, how would Miller REALLY feel about her attempts to fuck her way to intellectual credibility?

Ppl infantilize Monroe. She started working as a model in 1944 and didn't hit big until 7 or 8 years later. She had to be emotionally tough to endure all rejection actors get. She had a nose and chin job and worked at her appearance. She was over 25 by the time she was a star. Miller could not have been unaware that Monroes contacts and money would help him

Weren't they nicknamed "The Beauty and the Brain?"

MM was a drug addict. It's hard to have patience, let alone relationships, with them. Most of the time they're just unsalvageable. She had a lot of great qualities and was a good actress... but untreated addiction destroys your personality.

I've always thought it was interesting she never had any longterm female friends. Even her sister she wasn't all that close to.

Arthur Miller was a stereotype come to life in many ways and so was Marilyn. I think Miller hated her from day one. I think he was aware of his vulnerability in being ironically but accurately cast as the social climber in the relationship and he resented it with a fury and scorn he took out on her. It was socially acceptable to do so and he took every cheap shot in public and behind closed doors he could get. What really got his goat was that in many ways Marilyn had persevered, worked, and sacrificed so much that she was his rightful equal in many ways. She wasn't exactly the intellectual, embittered miser he was, but the cult of personality she had brought to life could equal if not eclipse him. And underneath that, I think there was a cold realism to her. He was aware of this from the beginning and stands as a quintessential example of a frenemy. I don't think there was ever a moment in regard to her that he meant well.

[quote]I think Miller hated her from day one.

Odd he'd leave his wife for her if that was the case. It was her incessant drinking and drugging and mental illness that drove them apart, once he lived with her up close.

[quote]he resented it with a fury and scorn he took out on her... he took every cheap shot in public and behind closed doors he could get.

Calm down, Mary. They did have good times, too.

Yikes, it really hit a nerve with you that Arthur Miller might get some criticism here. 5 wincing replies in a row with the damning evidence of MM holding a drink. Talk about "Mary!". You must have taken to the fainting couch with a deafening boom.

Arthur Miller was not a nice guy and after she married him, she probably realized she was smarter than he was.

[quote] ...her uneducated and unsophisticated tastes betrayed her.

Well, what was her favourite book, then?

That’s a tall statement to make without any supporting evidence. MM may have had very different ‘tastes’ to MILLAH but that doesn’t make her callow or crude.

With regard to the HUAC, I heard Miller interviewed maybe 15 or 20 years ago on the radio. He said that during the investigation some of the big names on the Committee took him aside and said they'd drop any pressure on him if he got them photo ops with Marilyn. He told them to get fucked.

So at least there was that.

I'd love to know the basis for the conviction so many of you have that Monroe was far more intelligent than Miller. As far as intellectual dazzle goes Miller ain't exactly Stoppard, but anyone who thinks Marilyn really read and enjoyed Finnegan's Wake might like to buy this here bridge. (Note: Nobody ever enjoyed Finnegan's Wake, except for those academics who love to pull it apart and explain the references to each other.) Rat cunning isn't brilliance; it's just evidence of a hard life.

They were both fucked up. Miller was malicious and Monroe wasn’t.

[quote]Other than telephone calls she placed to JFK, which he apparently did not take, and to Bobby, which he and his secretary apparently did take,that's it. Anything else just cannot be proven.

Possibly because most of the evidence has been destroyed? I don't think the Kennedys were involved in her death, but I do believe that they came in immediately afterward to 'clean' the place. That may account for all the discrepancies that night (e.g. the housekeeper not alerting police until several hours later). Also, Mathilde Krim, founder of amfAR, hosted the after-party of JFK's birthday celebration at her home and mentions in the interview below that the FBI or Secret Service confiscated all of the cameras and kept the film that showed MM and the Kennedys together. Only one photo exists, because the photographer had the presence of mind to remove the film before the camera was taken away.

The only photograph of Marilyn and the Kennedys to survive:

Looks like JFK is addressing her chest

I also find it odd that Pat Newcomb, one of MM's publicists, was photographed on JFK's yacht a week or so after MM's death. She went to work for the Kennedys thereafter and assisted RFK in his senatorial and presidential campaigns.

(photograph below) Newcomb is the woman in the shades underneath the American flag. (August 12, 1962)

r41 " "His only recorded reaction, in a letter written to a friend, was that "The earth shocks for a moment, but her life-death will not enlighten many."

Well, her life and death are still enlightening many after fifty-five years.

Strange thing about Monroe: women all came to her defense from Jane Russell to Dame Sybil Thorndike. They probably saw in her the abused little girl, and realized that she was yearning for something she couldn't have- a real sense of peace and safety, especially in Hollywood.

Yes, we're all aware that Monroe was brighter and more thoughtful than the bubbleheads she played onscreen, but what's the evidence that she was really intelligent or intellectual, and not just pretentious? Because yes, she had a strong desire to break out of her airhead image and be taken seriously, but wanting to be thought of as intelligent isn't the same thing as actually being intelligent.

Did she read books all the way through? Did she read when the camera wasn't on her? Did any of Miller's NY intellectual friends say she was bright or insightful?

Monroe wanted people to think she was intelligent, hence all those posed photographs of her "reading", but she was no great intellect. She was no deep thinker. She liked parties and talking on the phone and listening to records (Sinatra, mostly). Her interests were shallow. She was shrewd, rather than intelligent.

The 1998 HBO movie THE RAT PACK portrayed her as rather dim. For instance, at one point, she refers to Miller's greatest work as DEATH OF A MAILMAN.

All our generalisations about her wanting intelligence fail when she married that baseball player.

Supposedly Monroe and DiMaggio had a very happy sex life. It's when they were out of the bedroom that it was a problem.

Plenty of people marry because they adore someone physically. Does Trump really care anything about Melania's MIND?

Funny I remember Madonna talking about reading all this pretentious shit; "Ulysses, Sheltering Sky, Crime and Punishment." She really did imitate Monroe.

Both are/were more shrewd than intellectuals.

Reminds me of the advice given to men who want to seduce women: tell a beautiful woman she’s intelligent and an intelligent woman she’s beautiful.

Marilyn was beautiful.

R116 I remember that! Didn't she criticize Debra Winger's performance in the Sheltering Sky film? That may have been why Winger dropped out of A League of Their Own when Madonna was cast.

Miller thought he was marrying the movie star he saw onscreen with no emotional hang ups. She thought she was marrying the sensitive playwright with no emotional hang ups had read about. They were both wrong.

We're making lots and lots of psychological assertions about people we don't know.

I'll start believing SOME of our assertions after I look at Arthur's and Marilyn's Twitter feeds.

"We're making lots and lots of psychological assertions about people we don't know."

People who DID know them made a lot of observations about them. You can get a pretty good idea of what they were like from them.

How's that rat cunning working for you, R103?

I reckon Miller was such a psychologically-abstruse man that even his friends wouldn't have understood him.

I doubt his intellectual-child of a wife would have.

Miller has stated Monroe was an addict, and it made it impossible for the marriage to survive. She was shipped out to rehab from the set of THE MISFITS...it's not like it was any secret. She had also been institutionalized while married to him, and diagnosed as a borderline paranoid schizophrenic. (Serious mental illness ran in her family.)

Gee...having that for a spouse sounds like a BALL! What could go wrong??

Arthur Miller was, understandably, bowled over by Marilyn Monroe. She was the ultimate trophy wife; no doubt he had the delusion that life with her would be magical. But the reality of her was something else entirely. She supposedly found something he'd written about her; he thought she was "some kind of angel" but he guessed he was wrong. Boy, he WAS wrong. The sweet angel he thought he'd married was a mentally ill woman with a substance abuse problem; demanding, needy, insecure, constantly in need of reassurance. The five years he was with her he barely wrote at all, because taking care of her was a full time job. It wore him out and he finally gave up. But he hung in there longer than any other man.

Laurence Olivier had a similar delusion about Marilyn Monroe. He had the idea that he would fall immediately in love with her (they were to do a movie together; it was an odd pairing) and he they would have a passionate, unforgettable affair. But once they started working together he ended up hating her guts. There was no affair; she was driving him crazy by never showing up on time and not remembering her lines. What Marilyn Monroe seemed to be on the surface, this irresistible sexual obliging creature, was NOT what she really was. Men who knew her found that out eventually, which is why she never had a relationship with a man that lasted in her life.

Perhaps more than any other star of the Golden Age, MM needed the studio system to support her wayward habits. Are there lots of stories of her misbehavior when she was under contract to Fox? It seems back then, she showed up on time and always knew her lines.

[quote(Serious mental illness ran in her family.)

Yeah, both of Marilyn's maternal grandparents ended their days in an asylum; her mother (their daughter) was diagnosed a paranoid schizophrenic and spent most of her life institutionalized; her uncle (mother's only sibling) was also a schizophrenic who disappeared when Marilyn was 3 and was eventually declared dead after so much time had passed.

Marilyn was blessed and cursed by her genes!

[quote]Are there lots of stories of her misbehavior when she was under contract to Fox? It seems back then, she showed up on time and always knew her lines.

She was suspended by them in early 1954 for refusing to do a film. GIRL IN PINK TIGHTS with Sinatra, I think. It was front-page news and greatly embarrassed Marilyn. To counter the scandal, she promptly got married to DiMaggio and Honeymooned in Japan/Korea, which garnered her a lot of positive publicity worldwide. When she returned to Fox, she had demonstrated that she was a star to be reckoned with and renegotiated a better contract and started work on THE SEVEN YEAR ITCH.

Yes, shrewd she was. She also used her savvy with the press to help Miller when he was being investigated for Communism by holding press conferences and charming the reporters.

I thought Pat Newcomb was a known lesbian (Liz Smith friend and mentor too), and Marilyn in a paranoid delusion thought she was after her.

Marilyn was dumb in the sense that she was uneducated, unsophisticated and totally self absorbed. Add in alcohol and drug addiction, and mental illness. She was no fit companion for ANYONE contrary to fan fantasies, and she would have ended up that way regardless of any life she had chosen. The only reason she stayed on the movie payroll was that she was protected by those who made money off her. She was lucky - if she hadn't been a movie star, she would have been a poor fat addicted housewife.

Arthur Miller was jealous of Marilyn. He thought her celebrity could save him from the communist charges. He thought she would bring attention to his writing. He was in a low time of his life and thought she would be the fix. John Houston hated what Arthur Miller wrote for The Misfits - his re-writes were even worse. As Marilyn said to him: you could write anything in the world for me and you write me this?

His ego couldn't handle it. He was having an affair with some woman on The Misfit set. And he resented Marilyn down to his core.

Jealousy is not an emotion that one recognizes when it strikes. You just feel righteously resentful of that person. It causes harm in all kinds of jobs, marriages, relationships.

source for Marilyn met her father towards the end of her life for reply 78........ It was a book written by her sister entitled my sister marilyn by her half sister, berneice miracle. see pages 176 and 177. Marilyn told berniece her father came to visit marilyn in the hospital (towards the end of her life). They talked a long time and it was pleasant but he wasnt all that warm and it didnt satisfy her fantasies. In the telling Marilyn didnt say how the visit came about or too many details and Berniece knew enuf not to press too much for any addl info as the subject was so painful for Marilyn. Berneice knows who the biological father was but does not specifically name him in the book. The only hint is Marilyn was sure the man at the hospital was her father due to facial features and unusual feature of his ears that Marilyn had as well. Ive seen pictures of Edward Mortensen ,one of Glady s husbands, and I think his face looks like Marilyns, but stanley gifford s photos show the probable ear similiarity so I cant really figure it out. Berneice would not name the father in the book as she promised Marilyn never to reveal it.............My guess is its one or the other. At one point Marilyn said he was prominent in the film community and that would be Gifford as Mortensen was a mail carrier..... In another book Gifford s kids from another marriage flatly deny Marilyn was GIffords daughter. . Mortensen had a photo of marilyn in his billfold when he had a heart attack while driving in his car and died. Tnat was 25 years after she died, so he obviously believed he was the father.

How observant of OP. No one ever noticed that before.

For all of you Arthur Miller lovers...did you know Miller had not one, but 2 kids after Marilyn s death with his last wife? The second kid is a son and he was autistic. They stuck him in a mental hospital and Miller had nothing to do with the kid basically the rest of his life. In interviews after Marilyn s death it was pretty apparent he had a lot of pent up hostility and anger towards his late ex wife. I think what grated on him the most was he had finally met his match in Marilyn Monroe and she was actually smarter. more successful , and the breadwinner in the relationship, and she threw that into his face at every opportunity, and after her death it was payback time. He was an utter ass in real life.

Yes Marilyn was reckless with prescrip drugs, but you have to remember in 1962 pills were considered miracle cures and there wasnt a betty ford clinic then or anything much known about addiction and it was a different era.

Finally as to the Bobby kennedy crap. Truman Capote once said he saw Bobby Kennedy nude in a locker room and judging by the size of his ............, he was shocked Kennedy could have even fathered kids.............if you get my drift..........................with Marilyn s history of SInatra and Dimaggio in the bedroom I GUARANTEE you she would not have been interested in Bobby. She told her close confident Ralph Roberts that Bobby was too puny when Roberts brought up the Bobby affair rumors to her in 1962. so you decide..... Jack K was a one night stand and because he wasnt coming back for seconds her ego went into overrdrive and she became obsessed, this did NOT happen to Marilyn Monroe...but it was his unavailablity that was the motivator not some grand long passionate thing............yes she was obssesed and it factored into her depression her last summer. She believed she was on the slide from her peak at 36 and her looks were starting to fade and her hold on the world would soon end...Kennedy s rejection fed into that.

Finally nobody murdered her, she didnt commit suicide. It was an accidental overdose administered by the loser Eunice Murray her housekeeper..at the direction of quack Dr Greenson. It was a chloral hydrate enema administered by Eunice. Either Eunice messed up on the doseage or it was the interraction of the drug in the enema with the steady intake that day of nembutal that Marilyn was taking that she didnt mention to Greenson. The 2 drugs do not mix and actually the combination in too high amounts are fatal. The drug was administered by enema as Greenson did NOT give the drugs directly, injections etc. That was up to her internist who was unavailable that weekend as he was separating from his wife. So Greenson chose enema for the drug administration and he wouldnt have done that personally...he allowed an untrained unstable housekeeper to do the deed. The reason that saturday was an emotionally wrenching one for Marilyn and she was so on edge is because she was letting Eunice. her housekeeper, go. and saturday was her last day. She was also terminating dr greenson and she had told him at that time. So nerves were on edge and she was trying to numb herself during the day. It was an accidental fatal error in judgement by Greenson with Marilyn partly at fault by over using the nembutal. All of the far out theories of her death and people just immediately count out the 2 people that were key in her life, and with her off and on the entire day?? Mystifies me how people look for phantom killers??? It was a terrible accident. Greenson should have lost his medical license but he was able to keep the circumstance under wraps...he eventually stopped seeing patients, suffered from heart problems, and looked haunted in his later years in photos.

R133 well, that settles it then!

BTW: Miller's son with Inge Morath had/has Down Syndrome.

I never believed that Marilyn had affairs with the Kennedy brothers. They were all so high profile, it would be too damaging to their careers if it came out that they were all sleeping together.

I think they were all smart enough to not get involved in that mess. And Bobby didn't seem like the cheating type, and Jack seemed to like things low-key. A famous movie star is the opposite low-key.

Hmph. Every man's fantasy: a hot piece of tail who pays the bills.

[quote]When she returned to Fox, she had demonstrated that she was a star to be reckoned with and renegotiated a better contract and started work on THE SEVEN YEAR ITC

She did No Business Like Show Business before Itch. Show Business got her Itch. And Grable's old dressing room.

R135 one of her publicists has confirmed them, as has Mathilde Krim, who hosted the after-party of Kennedy's b-day bash at her home. It was discussed upthread with links.

[quote]She did No Business Like Show Business before Itch. Show Business got her Itch.

More like she had to do the former in order to do the latter. That was all part of her new contract.

More like the success of "Itch" got her the clout and confidence to escape to New York and renegotiate her situation. Next up was "Bus Stop" and things looked promising. "The Prince and the Showgirl" looked like a good idea but fell short. Then she (reluctantly) went back to her tried and true formula of dumb blond and scored a home run with "Some Like It Hot". "Let's Make Love" was a misstep. "The Misfits" was ambitious but downbeat, and the critics and audiences yawned.

"Something's Got To Give" was expected to be just a frothy rom-com in the vein of the Doris Day/Rock Hudson movies that had been so popular. But as we know she never lived to see if it would have re-established her clout in The City of Broken Dreams.

I never bought the "killer enema" theory that Donald Spoto put forth in his skewed biography of Marilyn. Spoto is so besotted by Marilyn that his version of events isn't exactly the most credible. Despite all the evidence to the contrary he insists that Marilyn was NOT a drug addict, NOT promiscuous, NOT unprofessional and NOT mentally ill. His Marilyn is simply a sensitive artist who had a lot of bad luck and poor treatment from a lot of mean people who wanted to use her. And he praises to the skies her aborted performance in "Something's Got To Give", although outtakes from the movie show her as unfocused and "acting underwater", as someone said.

It's hard to believe that Marilyn would have allowed Eunice Murray, a weird woman Marilyn had no liking for, to "administer" an enema to her. Marilyn was no stranger to enemas; she used them throughout her life as a weight loss device, so why the hell would she need an old woman to give her an enema? Anyway, it's Spoto's idea that the possessive, unethical psychiatrist Greenson ordered a chloral hydrate enema that either killed her outright or in combination with other drugs she took caused her to overdose. Actually, I think might be she may simply took many pills and died. She'd overdosed several times before; it could easily happened again and this time there was no one to save her, no husband or lover for friend.

As for Greenson, he really was a dick. Rather than trying to make Marilyn stronger and more self-reliant, he encouraged her dependence on him and did outrageous thinks like having her take her sessions with him in his home and then having dinner with him and his family. Completely unethical behavior that he tried to justify by saying all he was trying to do was alleviate her 'terrible loneliness" by making it seem like she had a family: his.

As for all the Kennedy nonsense....well, that's what it is, nonsense. She had a one night stand, maybe two, with JFK. And there is no real evidence at all to suggest she had a hot and heavy affair with Bobby Kennedy. Bobby Kennedy may have liked to dip his wick in some barrel other than Ethel's sometimes, but he sure as hell wasn't dumb enough to have a "serious" affair" with someone as wacko as Marilyn. Monroe. I don't think he fucked her at all. I think he would have been afraid to.

"...what grated on him the most was he had finally met his match in Marilyn Monroe and she was actually smarter. more successful , and the breadwinner in the relationship..."

Many straight men resent when their woman is more successful and earns more money than they do, even if her intelligence and success are part of what attracted him in the first place. So yes, I totally believe that Miller resented the fact that Marilyn was more famous than he was, and earned more money.

But "smarter"? Gushing fanboy bitch please! She was a pill-popping unstable high school dropout, she may have been shrewd, but someone like Miller wouldn't consider street smarts or studio politics expertise to be greater proof of intelligence than intellectual credentials. In fact, I'd expect him to be embarrassed by her lack of education, when they socialized with the intelligentsia.

I'd also expect him to get really angry, if the intelligentsia paid more attention to his high-school dropout wife then himself, and I bet they did!

R133, I'd say Truman Capote is only slightly more "reliable" than Darwin Porter.

[quote]R142 bitch please! She was a pill-popping unstable high school dropout

Oh boy...the gloves are coming OFF!

R143 yeah, wasn't Capote a teller of tall tales? How did he get so lucky to see all the Kennedy men naked?

[quote]She was a pill-popping unstable high school dropout, she may have been shrewd, but someone like Miller wouldn't consider street smarts or studio politics expertise to be greater proof of intelligence than intellectual credentials.

And that, right there, is the crucible of the situation.

Sorry, couldn't resist.

They were all notoriously GFP, r145.

Just to clear things up. Fox suspended Marilyn in January 1954 for refusing to do THE GIRL IN PINK TIGHTS with Frank Sinatra. As a result, she received bad publicity. A week later, she and DiMaggio, whom she'd dated for nearly two years by this point, quickly tied the knot and set off on their honeymoon in Japan/Korea. Upon her return, Photoplay gave her the "Most Popular Female Star" and Fox renegotiated her contract, which included a bonus and THE SEVEN YEAR ITCH. She also had to do THERE'S NO BUSINESS LIKE SHOWBUSINESS in exchange for PINK TIGHTS. Monroe didn't escape to NYC until after production on ITCH wrapped up in November 1954. Her marriage to DiMaggio was over by then and she was butting heads with TPTB once again about roles and the promised bonus they never gave her. That's when she moved in with the Greenes and started doing the Actors Studio. Eventually, she and Fox drew up a new contract. This time MM got director/script approval and a raise. She also founded Marilyn Monroe Productions with Milton Greene. Their first project (in conjunction with Fox) was THE PRINCE AND THE SHOWGIRL.

r30/r32 is another crazy Marilyn worshipper who speaks as if it were other people's JOBS to save Marilyn from herself.

I didnt say he saw all the kennedy men naked, I said either he or somebody he knew directly saw Bobby Kennedy in a locker room naked. Truman Capote isnt all that reliable, but Im not sure why he would lie about a subject like that? He wasnt commenting about the observation of Bobby in conjunction with Marilyn................I just am putting what I know about MM relationship history with men and what Capote mentioned unrelated as a probable scenerio. Truman Capote was a first class gossiper but a great deal of it probably had some basis in fact. On the commentor that MM probably just overdosed on pills. There was no evidence of that in the autopsy. There was no pill residue found in the autopsy. There was a discoloration of her colon that the pathologist had never seen before in an overdose situation. That could have been caused by the drug enema hypotheses. I know a drug enema sounds like an extremely bizarre far fetched way to go. This did come from Spoto s book. He did have a favorable opinion of Monroe but he didnt sensationalize the events in her life. Everybody want s some fantastic explanation of MM death. Her life and death were fantastic enuf without any extra sensationalism needed. I am fascinated by Monroe and always have been/ I have read about just everything ever written about MM. Based on everything Ive ever read I think Spoto s book is the most accurate and he finally figured out the mystery of her death. My opinion. Everybody is welcome to their own.

he was/is a creep

treated her so bad

Marilyn gonna git him good when he goes on to other side..

his looks were spooky, how did she crawl into bed with that?

[quote]R148 She also founded Marilyn Monroe Productions with Milton Greene. Their first project (in conjunction with Fox) was THE PRINCE AND THE SHOWGIRL.

Wouldn't that be BUS STOP?

It's weird that when Monroe suddenly had a measure of control over her material, she chose to do the very slight, old fashioned THE PRINCE AND THE SHOWGIRL...which could have been made back in the day by someone like Betty Grable. Why did she want to do that tired old tripe? What happened to THE BROTHERS KARAMAZOV, etc., if that's the type of stuff she wanted to do?

I do think she looked better in SHOWGIRL, anyway, than in any other movie. So at least she got that right.

[quote]his looks were spooky, how did she crawl into bed with that?

Well, he didn't look like that pic when they were together...that's, like, at least 30 years later.

The young Arthur Miller was totally handsome.

miller broke her heart

he was abusive.

bless u mm

alwys loved 4 ever

How did he "abuse" her? DiMaggio was the one who beat her up.

"Show Business got her Itch."

You can take that to the bank.

R152 you are correct. BUS STOP was her first film made under her new 1955 contract. My mistake.

Thanks r131!

R142, quit your shitass psychoanalyzing and learn some grammar.

[quote] Marilyn Monroe wrote of her devastation at discovering that Arthur Miller had written in his diary that she was an embarrassment to him, new archives have disclosed.

R157 Of course : ) I thought I was going crazy! I was like, "B-b-b-b-but.....B-b-b-b-b-b-b-[italic]Bus Stop ! ! !"

[quote]R160 Marilyn Monroe wrote of her devastation at discovering that Arthur Miller had written in his diary that she was an embarrassment to him, new archives have disclosed.

Well, maybe she needed to grow the fuck up, and look at her behavior?

It is true though that once MM supposedly had more control over which projects she would do, she still and always played the dumb blonde. In the end, she really wasn't interested (or was just afraid) in stretching her abilities.

[quote]The actress recorded her anguish in a poem in which she appeared to call the playwright a “peaceful monster” after finding the entry during their 1956 summer stay in England.

R160 they had that scene in MY WEEK WITH MARILYN albeit from Colin Clark's (Eddie Redmayne) POV.

[quote] I never believed that Marilyn had affairs with the Kennedy brothers. They were all so high profile, it would be too damaging to their careers if it came out that they were all sleeping together.....I think they were all smart enough to not get involved in that mess. And Bobby didn't seem like the cheating type, and Jack seemed to like things low-key. A famous movie star is the opposite low-key.

How would it come out since newsmen knew all about JFK's sexual exploits? They never disclosed his behavior. JFK was very promiscuous. (He used to send out for street hookers when he was out of town, according to Secret Service agents.) And apparently not very good at it.

Since JFK was boinking the girlfriend of gangster Sam Giancana with no apparent concern for exposure, why would he worry about getting involved with MM?

....

R32, the poster may have been referring to an earlier post where the writer does call her dumb.

Marilyn was a genuis! A goddess tortured and exploited by the Hollywood Elite!

She looked at him.

[142] How about you just go away you tedious ribbon clerk. We get it..you HATE Monroe. Call anyone who posts anything even remotely favorable regarding Monroe..A " gushing fanboy bitch ".. Jesus Christ ! You are beyond tiresome and what's even worse..PREDICTABLE. ..So sit your ass down you miserable queen and STFU. MY Father was close friends with Monroe's personal contract lawyer. What he Remembered most about Marilyn, besides her beauty was her ability to tear through a complicated legal contract like a seasoned professional lawyer . He described her as No dumb blond and no one's fool. Part of the reason 20th Century Fox hated Monroe was because SHE WASN'T DUMB...and would fight tooth and nail to get what she wanted. That is the reason she left Hollywood for New York and started Marilyn Monroe productions. So please 142...take your weak shit out to the Forrest. Maybe the squirrels will care.

Miller was a cunt who chucked his intellectually impaired baby son in an institution and didn't see him for 30 years

They both married an illusion. For one thing Marilyns drug taking and mild overdose attempts really seemed to piss off Miller. Like many actresses/actors Marilyn had a high degree of knowledge about meds and medicine in general ( see Eliz Taylor and monty clift) and what would put her into a deep sleep versus what would kill her. Also in reality Marilyn was a very very bright person and Miller was highly threatened by this. Her success bothered him as well. The fact that she was the breadwinner also pissed him off. Marilyn had a tendency to want to completely dominate and maybe humiliate and defeat her spouses and men in general I think. PLUS Arthur was not a nice person and a real bore. Marilyn should have avoided that prick at all cost, but I will say I think she was more depressed over divorce 3 than divorce 2.