Doubt, the Movie (2008)

I loved the ending, and I don't think Sister Aloysius was doubting her religious life or convictions at all, as some in the closed threads speculated. Sister Aloysius was speaking with Sister James about how she got Father Flynn to resign, including how she lied to induce him to do so. I think she was contemplating, fearing, and regretting what a monster she would have been, if Flynn was innocent.

In rewatching that ending, what a great actor Meryl is. I wonder if they had to shoot the scene many times to get it just right! She's very convincing, and I know that feeling of uncertainty.

I love the movie adaptation. All four leads are great, and I highly recommend it for actors (or people who love them). My take is that the boy was a gayling, and Father Flynn took advantage of him. Sister Aloysius knew the priest was trouble, but only could bait him to try and get at the truth. Streep is great and she really seems like a woman of that time.

I also like the line "Maybe we're not supposed to sleep so well."

It says a lot about what we all go through in life, separating fact from fiction, as best we can.

R3. That's what I took out of it. There was no actual proof but everyone kinda "assumed" what the deal was. And she took action regardless and knew she had to lie to rectify it despite it went against her religious mindset and the possibility she was wrong. Catholics tend to lie a lot to hide misconception about the church.

It should be a double feature shown with Spotlight at Catholic churches. It has one of my favorite Phillip Setmour Hoffman performances. Great actor; sad that he is gone.

It's one of my favorite films. My understanding is that Donald is gay. That's why his father beats him and that's why his mother is willing to turn a blind eye to what may or may not have happened between him and Hoffman's character because she sees his the church and his education as his only way out of a neighborhood where for him, being gay, is a dead end. I think you can also read the Hoffman character as gay and that is why he tries to look after Donald. Of course, you can also read Hoffman's character as a rapist and that is why he tries to look after Donald.

The whole point of the film is that you can never be certain. And that's obviously tied in with the broader theme of doubt and religious faith. But I think Donald's homosexuality is quite clear.

Cherry Jones did the role better on stage.

Read the play!

I worked as crew on the film. After it wrapped the script supervisor told me that Philip Seymour Hoffman had told only her and John Patrick Shanley what he thought what happened with Father Flynn and Donald. He'd told them he played the role believing that there were incidents with young boys in other parishes but he never did anything to Donald.

To listen to Philip Seymour Hoffman's goodbye sermon is heartbreaking. It's like he's giving his own eulogy. Who would have known that this incredibly talented actor would be gone so soon? I wish he was still here, still giving great performances.

Hmm, "I don't know". Very funny.

I didn't think there was much doubt at the end of the play or movie. He did it and we can tell because of the speed at which he started looking for a new position after the nun called him out

I didn't see or read the play, but I think the movie is ambiguous. That is the entire point, isn't it? To not know, to have doubt? If the author neglected to use the opportunity to leave the audience in doubt, when covering the subject of "doubt", he would be a shitty author. For the purposes of storytelling, it would be a boring story if we knew the Priest's guilt. What would that revelation add to the story? Nothing. It instead would detract from the story.

The Priest might have resigned because he didn't want to have his name dragged in the mud. Once accused, that accusation sticks to you, no matter the lack of evidence. Perhaps that is what he feared. Or, perhaps he simply didn't want to be under scrutiny for the months or years ahead, despite his innocence to this particular charge.

In once scene, the Priest asks Sister Aloysius if she had ever committed a mortal sin. She acknowledges that she had. He pleads for her to drop the matter. This scene suggests to me that the Priest has a secret of some kind. Maybe it was an adult affair. Maybe it was something far in the past, but something he didn't want brought up. If it was anything at all, the audience is not told.

Passive-aggressives are good at exploiting "doubt". If you ever challenge a passive aggressive person, count on them pretending that nothing was going on, that you're too sensitive, etc. Sometimes, a passive aggressive can be awful to you, then compound all that by making you doubt your own correct observations and experiences.

R11, that "goodbye sermon" was written during production of the film. Shanley felt there had to be a scene where Father Flynn would get to say goodbye to his parishioners and get down from his pulpit and shake their hands.

My Sister Aloysius in middle school in 1972 was named "Sister Susan". She had a large paddle in her office on which was written "Board of Education" that she never used on anyone, as far as I knew, but it was displayed prominently. She had a steely gaze that could command the attention of any student, just like Sister A. She was not any student's friend.

We also had one very elderly nun.

Sister Louise was a younger, pretty nun who left the convent to work as a laywoman at my college. When I ran into her at this college, she wanted to be friends, but I thought that was too weird, since she seemed so much older than I.

There was only one extended Black family in my parish, and their son was in my class and a friend of mine. He was a jokester, who became something of a delinquent and petty criminal. His cousins were identical twins who were very tall, at an early age.

That is so true about passive-aggressives. I told a woman today she was being passive-aggressive, and she said that she felt attacked and that I was acting crazy. Anything but look inward and admit the truth.

I love the nun banter in the movie. Very endearing, like an all female brigade. They were 2nd class citizens but the only moral compass.

The mother states "I'm talking about the boy's nature. You can't hold a child responsible for what God gave him to be."

I thought yes but now I don't know.

It has been my experience that if they have a paddle, they use it.

Father Flynn: I could fight you.

Sister Aloysius: You will lose.

FF: Where's your compassion?

SA: Not anywhere you can get at it.

R22, my experience was about 1972 and later, and I think that physical violence was less common by then. I have a friend my age who went to Mount St. Charles boarder-High School in RI. When he went in 1974, they no longer hit the students, but they all talked about the old times when they could.

[quote]I didn't see or read the play, but I think the movie is ambiguous. That is the entire point, isn't it? To not know, to have doubt?

Yes, I think so too. It's what makes the film so powerful and so well written (and performed). I've spoken to a few people about the film over the years and I'm always surprised by how many are certain that Father Flynn is guilty.

His sermon about gossip is an incredible scene. The whole cast is amazing in that film, though.

[quote] Sister A: "This parish serves Irish and Italian Catholics. Someone will hit the boy (Donald Miller)"

I was pretty lucky in my Catholic Schooling. After some homophobia in grade school, there was none in my High School, and I don't think my peers knew about me. The school administrator may have since I volunteered to bring the daily school bulletin down to the boys locker room where she couldn't carry it herself, ha! We only had a few Blacks, but I never heard a derogatory word. My class president was a gay black guy with a lisp. Nobody ever accused him of being Gay or slurred him. He went to Princeton and has a good job in a hospital.

I am proud of everybody involved with that school. This was the late 1970s. There were plenty of gay Christian Brothers and Priests teaching there, but it was otherwise not a tolerant time.

[quote] I told a woman today she was being passive-aggressive, and she said that she felt attacked and that I was acting crazy.

Classic case. The passive-aggressive no doubt expects you to apologize to her, because she attacked you!

I don't know what movie some of you were watching, but Streep is at her height of bad acting in this movie. Remember the scene where she jabs the crucifix at the priest to punctuate her words? Laughable. Her acting consists of narrow eyes and scrunched up face. And casting PSH was wrong because he looks like everyone's idea of the stereotypical pedophile. And the direction was worse than amateur. That scene where Streep is standing there and suddenly the wind blows all those leaves at her. Can you please indicate that trouble is coming a bit more, I seem to have missed that point while I was pouring my Milk Duds into my buttered popcorn.

In the Broadway show, Cherry Jones was great, but Eileen Atkins took over and was just so-so (but better than Streep and her shiv-like crucifix).

Agree with R28 - I saw it twice on Broadway with Cherry Jones and Eileen Atkins. The play makes it very clear that the boy Donald Muller is gay in the scene where the mother is interviewed. All very much as R7 said. However, I agree that nothing went on physically with Father Flynn and Donald but they bonded because they are both gay. Sister Aloysius in her blind insinuations probably hit on an undisclosed same sex relationship that Flynn may have carried on while he was in the seminary. That is why Flynn bolts so fast. So Flynn isn't guilty in this case but has gay skeletons in his closet.

OP/R29 You're an idiot.

The "little boy" isn't anything yet, and just because an answer isn't expressed explicitly doesn't make it ambiguous.

R30, after replaying the scene where the mother speaks with Sister A, it's clear to me that the boy is Gay. How else would you explain when:

[quote] The mother states "I'm talking about the boy's nature. You can't hold a child responsible for what God gave him to be." That's why the father beats the son, not because he was dismissed as an alter boy. That's why he was almost killed at his previous school. He's thought to be Gay, regardless of what he is. But you have doubts? How coincidental!

[quote] ...and just because an answer isn't expressed explicitly doesn't make it ambiguous.

I have no idea what you're trying to communicate here.

R32 You can show that someone is gay without having a character say "I'm gay", or showing him bed in a man, but that's not the same as the character's sexuality being ambiguous. It's called subtlety.

R31 Sexual abuse victims tend to be confused about their sexuality, especially at such a young age. The kid was acting out and the father didn't understand.

I love this movie. You know, there was a black kid at my Catholic grammar school in the 80s that I strongly suspected of being in the same situation as Donald. It is a hard thing to explain, but I guess I just sort of knew he was gay. He was a smart kid but very rude and condescending. He also said the word faggot like it would run out of style. He had a really fucked up childhood (his mother was an alcoholic, father was a deadbeat), and his grandmother raised him and put him in Catholic school. He was the star basketball player for our JV and Varsity teams. Our main priest took such an obvious liking to him, and always let him get passes for questionable conduct or behavior. Everyone secretly called him the Father's Son. I always felt there was something very odd about their relationship.

I think Doubt, as a play, is a masterpiece. I've seen a number of stage productions. There was one at the Seattle Rep years ago that was utter perfection, even better than Cherry Jones. I like the movie but I do think it's imbalanced in its direction.

Watch the whole movie/play from the point of view that Father Flynn is completely innocent. It still works. It's very possible that Sister Aloysius has become such a nasty, hate-filled powermonger that the whole thing could simply be a scheme to get rid of Flynn. The play works whichever point of view you take, which is why it's so brilliant.

The Broadway replacement cast had Ron Eldard as the priest. I wanted to jump up on stage and yell, "Forget the boys, Father, you can diddle me."

R33, I might understand your point if you stated plainly something like "I believe (whatever about this play/movie), because (reason)". Thanks. Sorry for the lack of subtlety.

I think your second point is a good one. Donald may or may not be Gay; however, his parents and his former schoolmates think he is, according to his mother, as described above.

I don't think Sister Aloysius is hate filled. The kids fear her, because "that's how it works". It's junior high. She is absolutely right as to one way to keep the zoo animals under control. It's exactly why kids are sent to Catholic school in the first place. In this movie, and in my experience, nobody was ever abused. They got a smack on the back of the head and were told to "Go back to class and shut up." And they got a better education than in public school.

I am sure some people on DL had bad experiences, but I don't see it in this movie, other than the central question of Fr. Flynn - something that concerns Sr. A. a lot. She's become a control freak, which I imagine comes from having to control so many children over many years. I can see it creeping into everything after a while. Occupational hazard. I bet she was a hoot on parent teacher night.

I loved the film. My one question is would a nun in that time period be that forward with priests? Threatening them like that? I find it very hard to believe that this would've happened. But the movie is brilliant. Never saw the play.

IMDB has over 20 foreign names for the film. When an American film like this is shown in a foreign country, with a foreign language, do they dub it, or caption it?

R39, I think Sr. A. touches on your question at the beginning when she asks her fellow sisters at dinner to discuss the subject of Fr. Flynn's sermon on "Doubt".

Is Fr. Flynn in doubt? Sr. A. says he is her superior, and it's not for her to question ...etc. I only think Sr. A. is so forward about Dinald Miller because she's a tough ol' broad from the Bronx, widowed, and a principal and head of a convent. She also has experience with pedophiles, she relates, and she does care (as evidenced to me in her expressions when talking with Mrs. Miller).

Note that she reported Fr. Flynn to the Monsignor, but not the Bishop nor the police - so she had limits on her assertiveness.

Female intuition

I disagree that Streep gave a bad performance. It's her interpretation of that part, and it was set in the 1960's, so I found all of her choices spot on. Cherry Jones may have been great on stage but I don't think a movie with her would have had any impact. BTW, I recommend the piece on Streep in the new Vanity Fair. Great read.

Worst performance of Streep's career. Mugging all over the place as if it was her job and what the FUCK was that "accent"???

Patrick Wilson would have made a great Father Flynn. In the play he's actually written as a bit of a jock. Hoffman, although brilliant, came off as Uncle Perv.

Worst performance but it won the SAG? Everyone is entitled to their own opinion but I respect her work.

R44, you don't buy the accent? I thought it was pretty good. Though I don't know if it was a Brooklyn or Bronx accent?

Sounded like some unnatural cross between Brooklyn and Boston to me. She was trying way too hard with it.

I agree with R7

Agree too that maybe Father Flynn could have not yet molested Donald, but Sister A knew he was a pedo, and would have more wine time if not thrown out.

This scene shows how great the characters are. This guy seems special

What do you think the significance of the nails was? It was an issue for both Priest and Nun, so I suspect the author was trying to send a message of some kind.

I wondered that as well R52; I believe I saw an interview with PSH in which he indicated that this scene is a major clue that something is off about the guy, but it didn't strike me as that significant.

It seems to me to be another ambiguous element. If you're inclined to believe that he's gay then the fact that he is very conscientious about his appearance and has very well-kept nails could suggest that he is. If you believe that he's a pedophile then the fact that he keeps everything "just so" could be indicative of a controlling nature and one overly conscious of outward appearances. It doesn't suggest anything concrete but it's a strong scene.

The nail scene is significant because he was teaching the kids about grooming. . Grooming is what pedophiles do. That is how I took it.

Isn't "grooming" in the pedophile sense a very modern usage, though? It seems a little too literal to have a scene where he teaches the kids about good grooming in order to make a point about pedophiles grooming victims.

R55, that's good! It makes sense to me.

He liked to see boys move their hips. Just sayin'

"In the play he's actually written as a bit of a jock. Hoffman, although brilliant, came off as Uncle Perv. "

The role was played on Broadway originally by Brian F. O'Byrne, who was certainly more jock-like than PSH.

Totally agree that the young man was gay. It seemed to me that his mother thought he was better off with the priest somehow.

Why couldn't Cherry Jones be in the film? They could have had a "name" as the priest in order to balance out that casting, right?

I thought it was clear Donald was gay, or at least his mother thought he was. And it was heartbreaking to see her willing to "sacrifice" him to a maybe-pedophile in order to get him that education.

In my youth, the son of the Governor was a Priest in my parish. I once asked my parents if there was any pervy scandal in my parish, and my Dad, who never attended Mass, mentioned him. I think only because he was (probably) Gay, but who knows. Certainly there was no published hubbub. He wasn't in my parish very long.

He was revered by my Mother. Like the Son of God himself, for the sacrifices he made (no family). A Priest, AND the son of the Governor, oh my!

I can't find him today in Google. His brother, also a priest, is easy to find, but no news on him.

I thought it was REALLY obvious the kid was supposed to be gay. I was surprised that anyone found it ambiguous to be honest.

It also seemed obvious Father Flynn was a pedo, even though Sister Aloyisious had no proof about Donld Miller

I like Cherry Jones but I doubt a film version could get financing with her. The movie was nominated for Oscars, was a financial success, and is still talked about

"It also seemed obvious Father Flynn was a pedo, even though Sister Aloyisious had no proof about Donld Miller."

What made it "obvious that Father Flynn was a pedo?" Because he was kind to a bullied, mistreated boy? That doesn't make somebody a pedo. Sister Aloyisious was mean-spirited, a busybody, a troublemaker, paranoid. I got the impression that everything she perceived as being indicative of a sordid relationship between the priest and the boy stemmed from her disturbed state of mind.

The whole point of the movie is that we will never know.

It brings out certain people's prejudices. If they're a certain way inclined they will watch the film and come away certain that Father Flynn is obviously guilty. Another type of person will be convinced that he's obviously innocent and Sister Aloysius is in the wrong. It's written in such a way that either scenario is equally plausible. The point of the film is to acknowledge and respect that which we can't be certain of.

What I liked most about the play/movie is that it also left room for a third, and very realistic, possibility that Flynn is guilty of some things but not others. Maybe he was abusing some boys, but not Donald. And vice versa.

The mother seemed like she already knew the priest was abusing her son before Sr. Aloysius informed her.

You could also read that scene as the mother knowing her son is gay and suspecting that Father Flynn is gay and making the possibly false assumption that there must be something more to their relationship. It was the 1950s, the era where there were actually public information films explicitly linking homosexuality and pedophilia. You could also read Father Flynn's apparent anxiousness about his past being dredged up by Sister Aloysius as being motivated by incidences involving homosexual activity rather than any pedophilia.

Maybe NBC could do a live version of it with Cherry Jones, Ryan Gosling and Saoirse Ronan?

[quote] R63: I thought it was REALLY obvious the kid was supposed to be gay. I was surprised that anyone found it ambiguous to be honest.

Most of this was revealed in the conversation with the mother. The mother was talking quite fast. Even with multiple replays, I couldn't make out all that she was saying. That was my problem. At first, I didn't even think it was on the table. Ah, to be young again and have good hearing!

re-watched today, so strange to read MIRAMAX before a movie about a possible sexual predator. Great movie, tho. I agree that some directing choices are over the top (the wind, the leaves, the thunder, the rain...al heard/seen on a dramatic peak of a scene....please) but the cast is superb. And obviously Donald was a gay (or effeminate) boy, that's why his mother chose to let him be "protected" by another maybe gay man, a powerful and educated figure that could at least help him out of a shitty future as a poor black gay man in 1964. She made it clear that her behaviour might have looked horrendous from the outside, but she was trying to be realistic.

I have 16 years of Catholic schooling, ending in 1972. So I was there pre-Vatican II. The thing that bothered me about Doubt was this- if any nun, anywhere, had tried to interfere with a priest, if she had tried to get him transferred, she would have been booted to a leper colony. She wouldn't dare. Better to just expel the kid.

Of course the kid was gay. He asks a fellow alter boy, "Do you think I'm fat?". That wasn't subtle. I like Meryl's performance but when looking at her, all I could see was Miss Prissy from Looney Tunes.