Norman Lear Opens Up About His Battle to Keep 'Archie Bunker's Place' Off the Air

There was a fascinating E True Hollywood Story about AITF about 15 years ago. Basically they fought about the scripts and what Carroll thought Archie would say and if it rang true or not. Then there was OConnors salary hold out which I'm sure Lear was pissed off about. Have to get OConnor credit for not letting Lear run right over him. His instincts were correct as far as Archie goes . Show was a massive hit in the 70s. OConnor than got creative control over ABP after AITF ended which he loved. But the show should've ended in 78 when Reiner and Struthers left. Then Stapleton leaves and they kill off Edith which was a mistake.

I like the season where Stephanie is introduced (and Jean is still there). The California two parter and "Too Good Edith" are classic AITF episodes.

It seems like Lear had less and less to do with any of his shows after 1978, and everything new he actually put his own name on was a flop. IMHO he was more effective at using TV to get his points across rather than direct activism.

I remember reading that Carroll wanted ABP to go on one more year than it did so he could get a proper farewell. None of Lear's shows really got much in the way of a proper finale, with the possible exception of [italic]Mary Hartman, Mary Hartman[/italic], but that doesn't quite count since it became [italic]Forever Fernwood[/italic] without Louise Lasser and so wasn't really "final."

Don't forget "Good Times" ridiculous fairy tale finale.

[quote]J.J. creates and sells the character "Dyno-Woman" to a comic book publisher (modeled after Thelma). J.J. is getting his own "pad" too. Thelma announces she's pregnant, just in time too, for her husband Keith has learned he can play pro football again because his broken leg has completely mended. He'll also be signing with a major NFL team. Neighbor Wilona gets a new higher paying job that will allow her and daughter Penny to move from the projects. Michael,already in college,decides to move out and live on campus and continue his education. Thelma and Keith will be living in a great apartment in North Chicago but insist that Florida come live with them to help care for Thelma's baby. In great co-incidence,it turns out the building they're moving into is the exact same one Wilona and Penny will also live in! Florida & Wilona laugh and cheer at this wonderful news and end the series with a hug.

They must have known they were going to be cancelled when they wrote that; they waited until the summer of 1979 to burn off the second half of the last season. But it didn't play like a finale on stage, more like a prelude to a major retool. Was their moving into the same new building a last-ditch effort to keep it alive for another season?

CBS cancelled [italic]Rhoda[/italic] in mid-season that year, too, and never even bothered to air that show's last episodes.

Did "All in the Family" have any kind of finale episode, or did it just simply stop?

A lot of old TV shows that weren't filmed in 35mm can be totally unwatchable on a large hi-def TV. Anyone know how All in the Family was shot?

[quote]Anyone know how All in the Family was shot?

It was recorded on tape before a live audience. Everybody knows that.

IIRC, this was the format they used:

All in the Family was videotaped, as were a lot of Norman Lear's shows.

[quote] Did "All in the Family" have any kind of finale episode, or did it just simply stop?

Mike and Gloria leaving for California was supposed to be the finale, and they play it as such; there was even a "Farewell to the Family" cover story in People magazine to commemorate it. But CBS paid them a fortune to stay.

[quote] All in the Family was videotaped, as were a lot of Norman Lear's shows.

Not counting the handful of TV movies made in the Embassy era, the only shows they ever sprung for film for were [italic]Palmerstown USA[/italic] and [italic]Square Pegs[/italic], both of them single-season flops.

In the 70s, Lear sitcoms were videotaped and MTM shows were filmed, except for WKRP In Cincinnati. In the 80s, live audience sitcoms were videotaped except for Murphy Brown and Designing Women which were filmed. Newhart was videotaped the first season and then switched to film for the remainder of its run.

[italic]WKRP[/italic] used videotape because there used to be a licensing rule with either BMI or ASCAP that allowed a lower fee per song for videotaped shows; that's why all the variety shows of the era were shot that way. That rule expired in the 1990s around the same time as the music licensing contracts, and Pat Robertson owned MTM Productions and refused to foot the bill. I am not sure of who foot the bill for the music costs of Shout! Factory's complete DVD box set. I bet it cost a lot of money to use John Lennon's "Imagine"; money that can buy a lot of possessions for Lennon's beneficiaries.

[quote]It was recorded on tape before a live audience. Everybody knows that.

Why did they stop taping in front of a studio audience during the last season? Remember Carroll announcing during the end credits, "All in the Family was played to a studio audience for live responses"?

They shot and edited it first, then showed the finished show to the studio audience of another Lear show (I think it might have been [italic]One Day at a Time[/italic] but I'm not sure), recorded their reactions and put them on the show before it went out to air. [italic]Barney Miller[/italic] did something similar.

All in the Family was taped at CBS Television City on Beverly Blvd., is that correct? As were the Carol Burnett show, Sonny & Cher, Match Game, Price is Right, etc. Pretty much a videotape facility with 4 studios: 31, 33, 41 and 43.

Mary Tyler Moore and the other MTM shows were filmed at CBS Studios in Studio City, which was basically a film facility.

I remember Jean Stapleton explaining that each episode of All in the Family was performed twice, before 2 different audiences (on the same day) and they edited the 2 recordings into one show, using the best takes.

R16: Yes, it was until 1975 when it moved to the then-new, now-demolished Metromedia Square along with every other Lear show except [italic]Sanford and Son[/italic], which was never shot anywhere but at NBC in Burbank.

[italic]Archie Bunker's Place[/italic] actually was shot at Television City, at least at first. I don't recall whether they moved to Universal City Studios in 1982 along with all the Metromedia-based shows.

They play ABP on this retro network called FamilyNet. The first season with Jean and Martin Balsam as Murrary isn't half bad, but the rest are awful. It was slow-paced and not funny and dark (and I'm talking about the lighting -- Archie's house is as dark as the bar).

Anne Meara was so unfunny in this.

What did Norman Lear mean when he said O'Connor "was the character," referring to the similarity to Archie Bunker?

Surely, not that he was a bigot?

The show definitely 'jumped the shark' after Mike and Gloria left for California. The audience struggled to laugh, as you can tell, from the shows produced from that point forward.

No, r21, because O'Connor himself had very liberal views - the polar opposite of Archie.

R21 Also Carroll has said he grew up among guys like that in NY I believe. Perfect fit of an actor and a role.

Check this out. In the mid-90s, O'Connor wanted to bring Archie Bunker back in a new sitcom. Archie would have been the owner of a town car service in Manhattan. Norman Lear wasn't having any of it, though.

[quote]It was slow-paced and not funny and dark (and I'm talking about the lighting -- Archie's house is as dark as the bar).

Oh my god, yes! The only thing I remember from the reruns was how DARK that bar was. It was as if they painted the entire set solid black.

Stapleton and Edith were the best thing about the show. The character changed and grew without becoming uninteresting. That almost never happens. usually, the character grows and becomes boring. Stapleton kept Edith from being the predictable cartoon that Archie was.

The final year of All in the Family and all of Archie Bunker's Place were taped without an audience, and show later to an audience to get responses. So they claim. It sounds like terrible canned laughter to me.

When Sally Struthers came back to guest star in the final season of All in the Family, she had a hard time adjusting to not having an audience there. She requested that the crew laugh out loud.

Jean Stapleton left the show, so they had no choice but to kill off Edith. It sucked to lose her, but it gave us some brilliant acting from O'Connor.

Some time after In the Heat of the Night went off the air, O'Connor wanted to bring Archie Bunker back and have the show focus on him driving a cab. This time, Lear refused to consider it. O'Connor must have died not very happy with Lear.

They really should have ended it when Gloria and Mike left for California, because the main recurring theme was the tension between the generations. Once that was gone there was not much point left.

R28 Lear attended his funeral. I don't think they were great friends but they respected each other. Reiner said the fights they had were all aimed to make a better show and it certainly paid off in the 70s. I think Lear loved all the power he had with being the number 1 producer in 70s tv. OConnor also knew that he couldn't replace him on AITF so naturally he rebelled. Lear was gonna kill Archie off when OConnor held out for money. But the network eventually met his demands and Carroll came back. Could you imagine AITF without Archie? Lear knew he was too valuable to lose.

AITF was an ensemble show. It worked best with all four main characters. Struthers and Reiner were underrated performers who helped make the show the sensation it was. The show was a shadow of itself, but still watchable, when they exited. ABP though was pretty poor.

I remember reading an interview O'Connor made where he was unhappy with Struthers because she did the spin-off GLORIA with Burgess Meredith. I don't remember what riled him about this, but he didn't want her doing it. GLORIA was a truly unfunny sitcom. I rewatched the pilot on YouTube recently.

R31 He probably wanted the Gloria character on Archie Bunkers Place which would've made more sense than a spin off.

Does anyone remember those two silver rings O'Connor wore on his middle fingers which became part of Archie's costume, even though they had nothing to do with Archie?

[quote]GLORIA was a truly unfunny sitcom. I rewatched the pilot on YouTube recently.

The producers of that show later did [italic]Growing Pains[/italic], a show that was philosophically opposed to the very idea that comedy should be funny.

The episode where Sammy Davis Jr visits the bar (and -- PLOT TWIST -- Archie kisses him this time around) was so awful.

They should remake All In The Family. It could use updating politically. And it isn't likely it could be cast as well as the original, but if enough effort was put into it, it's possible. The original cast weren't stars until the show made them household names. Carol was a busy character actor on tv, but surely he hadn't become that well known. They discovered those relative unknowns, there's unknowns to be discovered now.

The show centered in part around the conflicts of the 1970's. It would not have worked in the 1980's, with the different values, issues and clashes.

R36: It just wouldn't be the same. When it was a new show, the impact was HUGE. People were shocked 45 years ago (has it really been that long?) by things less shocking than what you hear on TV regularly today. And with so many media outlets to choose from, how many taboos are there left to break?

[quote]It was slow-paced and not funny and dark (and I'm talking about the lighting -- Archie's house is as dark as the bar).

And yet still light enough you could see the sight-holes poked into the sunglasses the blind man (Bill Quinn) wore.

Except for Danielle Brisebois, nobody wanted to stay on this show for too long. Martin Balsam bailed out after two years (the same time producer Mort Lachman left to partner with Alan Landsburg for [italic]Gimme A Break![/italic] and [italic]Kate & Allie[/italic]), Anne Meara left right before the final season, and a bunch of people came and went.

This is essentially what [italic]The Facts of Life[/italic] would have turned into if they'd have bought that "Eastland Goes Coed" sequel/spinoff.

AITF definitely was a product of the times, but some of the episodes that have held up the best are pretty timeless and less 70's issue related (peaches in hhmmm hhmmm syrup, the change). Guess it makes sense that some of the issues related episodes are more dated and the stuff that has held up are the character interactions and relationships.

The show probably should have ended when Gloria and Mike left but they were getting a bit tiresome by the time they left. I think they were having some of the same arguments one too many times. It is interesting how Mike and Gloria seemed to be more and more like Archie as they got older. Different side of the coin, but just as close minded and stubborn.

Mike revealed his true character when he left Gloria and Joey behind to live on a commune.

"The producers of that show later did Growing Pains, a show that was philosophically opposed to the very idea that comedy should be funny."

This is why I had to find God.

AITF and Seinfeld are my all time favorite comedies. Don't think either one can ever be remade. Part of the charm of AITF is the time it's set in. Same with a lot of 80s sitcoms I grew up with.

I've read people say they think Mike leaving Gloria was out character, but I disagree. I actually think it was perfectly in character. Archie got all the hate, but Mike was pretty insufferable on the other side. In the later years when they were living on their own a lot of cracks started to appear in their marriage. Mike was even tempted to cheat and he sometimes viewed Gloria as intellectually as inferior. The CA episode was the foreshadowing.

[quote]Archie's house is as dark as the bar).

It was like it was only lit by a single lamp. I thought it might have been because with Edith gone, the once bright house was now dark. But then, I saw an episode from the 1st season with Jean and the house set was barely lit, so that blew my theory out of the water.

Many years ago, a poster here said that the opening theme to Archie Bunker's Place sounded like a long, wet fart.

While I agree it was obvious that Mike and Gloria would have marital problems without the common enemy of Archie, it was completely out of character for Mike to abandon his son. I could see him getting divorced but would not have left Joey alone. At the same time, it would have followed that Mike would start getting much more conservative. He was clearly turning more right at the ends of AITN, the same way Archie was turning more left.

Carroll O'Connor said on one of the entertainment shows that the reason he hated "Gloria" was because Sally Struthers didn't use the creative people he wanted. He then said rather coldly that he wasn't going to talk to her again and it was okay because he didn't talk much to her before this. Struthers did attend O'Connor's star ceremony, so he could have just been very angry at the situation.

Yes, there were a lot signs Mike and Gloria might not make it in the long run , but the commune seemed like a lazy unlikely thing for Mike to do - maybe if he was still 22 and it was 1972, The former hippies were becoming the yuppies by this point, and Mike seemed to be heading in more of that direction, it would have made more sense if they would have just had them split due to changing view points that no longer meshed. It had already been established that there liberal view points were pretty much all they had in common.

[quote]While I agree it was obvious that Mike and Gloria would have marital problems without the common enemy of Archie, it was completely out of character for Mike to abandon his son. I could see him getting divorced but would not have left Joey alone.

Yeah, they turned Mike into a DEADBEAT DAD. It was actually insulting to AITF viewers. We watched this character for 8 seasons and knew that despite their tumultuous relationship, he wouldn't have left Archie high and dry, much less Gloria and Joey. It was pretty bad character destruction.

I think the explanation was that Mike wanted Gloria and Joey to join him but Gloria refused saying that a commune wasn't the right place for a child. When they said no, Mike picked up a young hippie chick and fled. I think that Gloria's refusal was very much in character but either way, Mike's behavior is completely contrary to everything we learned about him and is indeed insulting because it's says that Archie was completely right about Mike and his meathead liberal ideas. They were sanctimonious, self-rightous bunk.

But you know what, Joey? We're gonna be okay.

How was Carroll not even nominated for an Emmy for the episode after Edith's passing? That last scene is one of the most heartwrenching scenes in television history. He won a Peabody award for it.

In fact, he was never nominated for ABP. Anne Meara was the only one who got nominated (twice) and allegedly Carroll was pissed over that. I remember reading that O Connor was so mad over the Emmy snub for the Edith show that he refused to attend another Emmy show. Years later, when he won for In the Heat of the Night, he was a no show.

R52 I believe his last AITF Emmy was the last year of the show before it became ABP. Before they started the guest actress Emmy in the 80s Struthers picked up another one too for this last year for the Christmas episodes when the family is in California. She was in top form and deserved to win. As far as Reiner goes they threw money at him to get him to return but he was trying to get his directing career off the ground and said no. The commune idea was stupid and made Mike look like an idiot. They could've just divorced. Gloria should've just stayed on ABP for the rest of its run. I think OConnor and her made up at some point because she also went to his funeral.

The divorce was also timed so Rob Reiner could direct [italic]This is Spinal Tap[/italic].

I'm not surprised that Carroll O'Connor was snubbed by the Emmys for ABP. A lot of people felt he stayed too long at the fair, so to speak, playing Archie all those years. People didn't like seeing such a beloved show cannibalized. The death of Edith was such shameless Emmy bait, I am glad they didn't go for it.

R55 yeah agreed. He won 4 for AITF and ABP was so inferior to the parent show

I've been watching this on Antenna and I don't think it's that bad. It's no All in the Family, but they had some good episodes. I noticed that they shifted from the bar the first two seasons back to the house the last two. What I don't understand is why they didn't bring Sally Struthers on ABP instead of doing that spin-off. Billy was terrible, she was bitchy and had no chemistry with CO/Archie. Why not just have Gloria and Joey move in instead?

Even so, it never came in lower than 25th place when it was on the air.

[italic]Gloria[/italic] was Embassy's highest-rated new show of 1982, but they both went down together and it never got a chance to survive without Archie as a lead-in.

[quote]The commune idea was stupid and made Mike look like an idiot.

Even in the prime years of [italic]All in the Family[/italic], Mike had blind spots regarding women's rights.

[quote][R55] yeah agreed. He won 4 for AITF and ABP was so inferior to the parent show

The main cast of [italic]The Jeffersons[/italic] still got Emmy nominations when their best days were behind them, and Isabel Sanford won in 1981. Even Charlotte Rae got nominated once for [italic]The Facts of Life[/italic], as did some of the [italic]One Day at a Time[/italic] cast. So the Lear contingent wasn't totally ignored at Emmy time even if he himself was taking more of a corporate role than a direct creative one. But it still made a difference. Watch anything they made before 1985. Then watch the same shows that were still running after 1985.

Imagine the money you could be making in any one of these careers!

R28 Maybe Lear wasn't interested because his own retread didn't work. The show 704 Hauser, set in the Bunker's old house, only lasted five episodes in 1994, and was a reversal since the parents were black Democrats and their son was conservative.

For its time, all in the family’s topics were shocking. War, abortion, transvestites, women’s rights. Groundbreaking.

After Lear sold Embassy, he founded Act III. Trouble is, many of the Embassy writers, producers, and directors stayed with the existing shows or the new ones Embassy started after the sale, of which [italic]227[/italic] and [italic]Married With Children[/italic] were the only successful ones. Some of them left for other companies. Some even settled for working for Miller-Boyett! So that's one reason the later Lear-produced shows didn't catch on.

[quote]peaches in hhmmm hhmmm syrup

What???

The only recent show that felt like a Norman Lear type show was the vastly underrated The Carmichael Show.

R65, in case you honestly don't know..

Thank you, r67. It was a long time ago, and I only watched TV during the summer then. I thought it was some kind of Timmy peach joke, though I couldn't imagine why.

The Beverly Lasalle episode was heartbreaking.

R67, that clip had me laughing out loud, AGAIN...!

Weird fact; Norman Lear originally planned for the attempted rape storyline from the "Edith's 50th Birthday" episode to happen on "One Day aat a Time." but he decided to have it happen to Edith in "AitF" instead becauise he wanted to show that anyone might be the target of a rapist, not necessarily the feminist.