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I Love Lucy Without Vivian Vance

William Frawley was a known alcoholic and when Desi hired him, he put in his contract that if he was ever late or absent even once for reasons related to being a drunk, they'd fire him. When they hired Vivian, in her contract it said, that if Frawley was written out, she could be written out too.

This of course, caused Vance distress, knowing her future depended on a drunk.

So at what point in the I Love Lucy series that it was established that Vance was too important to be written out, even if Frawley was fired.

by Anonymousreply 62July 20, 2020 11:07 PM

I think there are only three episodes that Viv isn't in. The Vitameatavegimin Episode and the episode with Bea Benderet as the old lady and the episode where the young couple has a crush on Lucy and Ricky.

While the Vitameata episode is a classic, it would have been perfection with Viv there. Fred got all the Viv lines. The other two episodes without Viv aren't on anyone's favorite list.

They probably realized the value of Viv by the end of Season 1.

by Anonymousreply 1December 9, 2015 2:50 PM

As good as she was, I don't think Vivian Vance was ever 'too important to be written out'. Part of the relatability of the show was the 'war between the sexes' plotline. With Ethel Mertz as a single woman (presumable widowed, since divorce was a taboo subject in the 1950s), Lucy would still have Ethel on her side, but who would Ricky have?

Plus, as a wife, Ethel was the brunt of many jokes that worked because audiences saw her as being able to stand up to Fred, and give as good as she got. As a widow, anybody poking fun at Ethel would've simply looked mean-spirited. Despite their good-natured bickering, you really got the feeling that Fred and Ethel loved each other (a testament to the skill of two actors that we later learned hated each other), so having Fred die would've made Ethel the grieving widow and 'Poor Ethel' just isn't going to be very funny, week after week.

If ILL had made the leap and had Ethel divorce Fred, it would've cast her in a bad light. In THE LUCY SHOW, we were able to laugh at Vance's character's jokes about her ex-husband because we never knew him. Audiences knew and loved ol' irascible Fred Mertz, and had Ethel given him the heave-ho, she would've lost sympathy with most of the viewing audience. Remember, this was a comedy.

Should Frawley had to have been written out, Vance would've had to go too, and a new married couple brought in in their place, but IMO, the show would not have worked nearly as well.

(BTW, in the photo below, taken at a Hollywood awards dinner, when not 'frumped up' you can see how pretty Vance was, and, being 22 years younger than Frawley, looked more like his daughter than his wife)

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by Anonymousreply 2December 9, 2015 3:11 PM

"This of course, caused Vance distress, knowing her future depended on a drunk."

She had nothing to worry about. Frawley may have had a drinking problems but he was always professional. As far as I know he never did anything to cause any problems on the set. Maybe that's why he was hired; they knew he could do the job.

by Anonymousreply 3December 9, 2015 3:22 PM

[quote] As far as I know he never did anything to cause any problems on the set

Not really a problem, but a lifelong baseball fan, Frawley had insisted on a unique clause in his I Love Lucy contract: If his beloved New York Yankees made it to the World Series, he would be given time off in October for the World Series. This clause came into play seven times during Frawley's I Love Lucy run and caused him to be written out of two full episodes.

by Anonymousreply 4December 9, 2015 3:51 PM

Lucy said that Vance was the best second banana in the business, While she was stingy in giving praise during the run of I LOVE LUCY, she credited Vance in later years for being a key part of the series success.

BTW. Bea Benederet was the Lucy's first choice for the role of Ethel Mertz, but Benederet was committed to doing the BURNS & ALLEN series

BTW II Vivian Vance's character on THE LUCY SHOW was one of the first divorced regular characters on a television series

by Anonymousreply 5December 9, 2015 3:53 PM

[quote] BTW II Vivian Vance's character on THE LUCY SHOW was one of the first divorced regular characters on a television series

And the Mertzes were the first TV couple, not married in real life, to sleep in a double bed. In the I LOVE LUCY episode 'First Stop' Fred and Ethel share a double bed, and Ethel even says 'it's just like our bed at home'. I guess the network censors missed that line.

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by Anonymousreply 6December 9, 2015 4:20 PM

I read somewhere that Lucy's pick for Fred Mertz was...yep, Gale Gordon. But that time DESI talked her out of it.

by Anonymousreply 7December 11, 2015 7:47 AM

I thought Barbara Pepper was the first choice for Ethel, but she was alcoholic and they didn't want to have to deal with both her and Frawley?

by Anonymousreply 8December 11, 2015 8:41 AM

A single Ethel would have been Wilona to the Ricardos' Evans. Maybe they could have added a Bookman-type handyman character.

by Anonymousreply 9December 11, 2015 9:13 AM

Actually, Lucy and Ricky shared a bed before Ethel and Fred did. In at least one episode - Season 2, Episode 4, the one where they are handcuffed together, Lucy and Ricky are sleeping side by side (the two beds moved together to create a double bed). I'm sure they made a persuasive case that the episode wouldn't work with them in two twin beds, but I think they had the double bed for at least one other episode besides the handcuffs one.

by Anonymousreply 10December 11, 2015 9:52 AM

R10, right, but Vance and Frawley were the first couple, unmarried in real life, to share a bed. One guesses that, since the Arnazes were married, they were allowed to be shown in bed together.

by Anonymousreply 11December 11, 2015 2:14 PM

Peter Lind Hayes and Mary Healy were the first couple to be shown on tv in the same bed.

by Anonymousreply 12December 11, 2015 3:29 PM

You are correct R12, and they were married in real life

by Anonymousreply 13December 14, 2015 9:48 PM

I think it was pretty much by the end of the first season. There is no doubt that Vivian Vance was the best co-star for Lucille Ball. I think that Bea Benadaret was too mousy for Lucy and Barbara Pepper would overshadow Lucy.

Vivian Vance was perfection, never overshadowing Lucy yet never fading into the background. Obviously if one of the others had been cast, maybe the scripts would be different, but I could never see them doing the "Friendship" ripping each others dress off with anyone other than Vance. You would feel sorry for Benadarret's dress being ripped and you would think Pepper was just being mean.

Another fun tidbit: William Frawley complained that Vance's name came first in the credits even though he was the more experienced actor. Desi Arnaz explained it away by saying it was done as a polite gesture as in "Ladies before gentlemen."

by Anonymousreply 14December 14, 2015 10:05 PM

Why couldn't they have simply recast Fred if Frawley violated the terms of his contract? It's not as if Frawley was the only actor in Hollywood capable of playing a comical but stingy old curmudgeon.

by Anonymousreply 15December 14, 2015 10:16 PM

Benedarat might have been good since she'd worked with Lucy before and her work on BH with Irene Ryan suggested she could pull off the female rivalry brilliantly. Still, Vance was perfection. What I could never believe is Gale Gordon as....well, anything. He was the worst part of any Lucy series, even worse than Lucy herself on LWL. He was never even vaguely sympathetic or warm.

by Anonymousreply 16December 14, 2015 10:22 PM

[quote]Maybe they could have added a Bookman-type handyman character.

I was available!

by Anonymousreply 17December 14, 2015 10:55 PM

R5 and R7 Benaderet and Gordon played the radio counterparts to the Mertzes on "My Favorite Husband"--Mr. and Mrs. Atterbury. Mr. Atterbury was George's boss at the bank, and Iris Atterbury was Liz's gal pal.

by Anonymousreply 18December 14, 2015 10:56 PM

In certain scenes, you see Vivian leaning on Desi's shoulder. That's her signal to him. "Dump me and I'll break your shoulder rendering you unfit to ever play a conga drum again."

by Anonymousreply 19December 14, 2015 10:57 PM

She MADE the show!

by Anonymousreply 20June 8, 2018 4:36 AM

R8, Barbara Pepper played a moll type in the hilarious "Murder,He Says," with a brilliant Fred McMurray. She was quite attractive. She's also in the wonderful and smarmy "Kiss Me, Stupid."

by Anonymousreply 21June 8, 2018 4:50 AM

R14, we always deeply appreciated Desi's "ladies before gentlemen" policy!

by Anonymousreply 22June 8, 2018 4:55 AM

Wasn't RIcky lovely in his early days!?

by Anonymousreply 23June 8, 2018 5:55 AM

There is some great info in this thread.

by Anonymousreply 24May 27, 2020 2:21 PM

I think Viv was more stressed out about having to deal with bitch Ball and William Frawley being a functioning alcoholic asshole on the set than anything. She used to vomit on her way to work and was seeing a therapist over the drama in those early seasons. It took a while for Lucy to warm to her. Lucy thought Desi was fucking Viv, since he was the one who wanted her for Ethel.

by Anonymousreply 25May 27, 2020 2:29 PM

Frawley was a difficult and cantankerous person, very common for an alcoholic. They can be real pills to deal with. Desi Arnaz was the only person who was able to get along with Frawley, apparently.

by Anonymousreply 26May 27, 2020 2:36 PM

R26 I believe that. He was let go from My Three Sons and after he was replaced on the program he would stall the set and be a nuisance until he was eventually told not to come back. I wonder if Vivian really said ‘champagne for everyone’, when she heard that Frawley had died.

by Anonymousreply 27May 27, 2020 2:43 PM

*stalk the set.

by Anonymousreply 28May 27, 2020 2:44 PM

There would have been no Lucy without Vivian.

by Anonymousreply 29May 27, 2020 2:52 PM

She was a big dyke and totally forgettable.

by Anonymousreply 30May 27, 2020 2:54 PM

Frawley could have been replaced. It would not have been the same without him. The casting on I Love Lucy is perfect.

Just kill him off. Let Ethel mourn for the rest of the season. Have her dating by the next season. Better yet, have an old flame reappear and have them get married. It would all be done easily enough. But the chemistry of those four could not be duplicated.

by Anonymousreply 31May 27, 2020 3:31 PM

They replaced the second male banana (or third, if you count Harry Von Zell) on "Burns and Allen" TWICE.

by Anonymousreply 32May 27, 2020 6:31 PM

Yes, when she was young, r21....

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by Anonymousreply 33May 27, 2020 7:00 PM

However, she didn't age well...

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by Anonymousreply 34May 27, 2020 7:01 PM

[quote]They replaced the second male banana (or third, if you count Harry Von Zell) on "Burns and Allen" TWICE.

Actually, four actors played Harry Morton over the course of the show: Hal March, John Brown, Fred Clark and Larry Keating.

by Anonymousreply 35May 27, 2020 7:26 PM

Barbara Pepper's final TV role was as Doris Ziffel on "Green Acres." She left because of heart problems in 1968 (and was replaced by Fran Ryan, the poor man's Marjorie Main) and died in 1969.

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by Anonymousreply 36May 27, 2020 7:32 PM

Since OP chose to omit the quotation marks around the title of the series in the header, one could read that as his being a fan of most of the later seasons of "The Lucy Show," and all of "Here's Lucy," "Life With Lucy," and Miss Ball's entire movie career.

by Anonymousreply 37May 27, 2020 8:37 PM

What I would like to know is -Why did Fred Mertz ALWAYS wear his pants above his head?

by Anonymousreply 38May 28, 2020 11:30 PM

I don't like the 3 episodes that Ethel does not appear in. She is crucial to the show.

by Anonymousreply 39May 28, 2020 11:38 PM

R38 That seemed to be the style at the time.

by Anonymousreply 40July 19, 2020 4:41 AM

Viv was the star of the show from the first episode.

by Anonymousreply 41July 19, 2020 4:44 AM

As mentioned above, Lucy's first choices for Fred and Ethel were Bea Benaderet and Gale Gordon, who had played the equivalent roles in Ball's radio show My Favorite Husband. But Benaderet was under a long term contract to the Burns and Allen Show and likewise Gordon to Our Miss Brooks with Eve Arden, so neither were available.

Lucy's second choice for Ethel was her old friend Barbara Pepper but CBS ruled her out because she was an even more notorious drunk than Frawley.

I had much more I was going to write but it's 2AM here and i just realized how drunk I am, so good night.

by Anonymousreply 42July 19, 2020 6:07 AM

Vivian Vance originally thought that William Frawley was going to play her father, and when she found out he was going to play her husband she was really pissed, because he was 20-plus years older than her. And he looked even older than that.

by Anonymousreply 43July 19, 2020 6:18 AM

Gale Gordon was waiting in the wings to take Frawley's place. That probably kept Frawley in line.

And Mary Jane Croft was waiting in the wings to replace Vivian.

by Anonymousreply 44July 19, 2020 6:23 AM

Pepper was more believable as a wife to Frawley than Vance and she was one of Lucy's best friends. Whenever she has a guest part on ILL, she's wonderful. The "Follies" sequence or her one line on the tour bus "sure is, honey" are unforgettable.

by Anonymousreply 45July 19, 2020 6:31 AM

Both Lucy and Barbara Pepper are canceled!

I'm gonna tell! Believe me, I'm gonna tell!!

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by Anonymousreply 46July 19, 2020 6:36 AM

Another finalist for Ethel was Mary Wickes, which is horrible casting.

by Anonymousreply 47July 19, 2020 6:39 AM

R47 Lucy really wanted all her best friends to get roles.

by Anonymousreply 48July 19, 2020 6:52 AM

R37 is why I love Datalounge

by Anonymousreply 49July 19, 2020 3:10 PM

I never quite got Vance as lower middle class, even when they dressed her frumpy. Pepper would have been better in that. She looked like a "middle aged dishwater blonde" and I would have been interested to see her chemistry with Lucy, since they were such good friends in real life.

by Anonymousreply 50July 19, 2020 3:25 PM

[quote]But Benaderet was under a long term contract to the Burns and Allen Show and likewise Gordon to Our Miss Brooks with Eve Arden, so neither were available.

The "Our Miss Brooks" TV series didn't begin until 1952; "Lucy" started a year earlier. Gale Gordon was working on the radio version of "Brooks" in '51, but I don't think that would have prevented him from taking a TV role at the same time. Radio shows required much less time than TV series.

by Anonymousreply 51July 19, 2020 5:25 PM

Wouldn't say the Mertz's were lower middle class - they owned that apartment building. Fred was just a tightwad.

by Anonymousreply 52July 19, 2020 8:00 PM

[quote]Wouldn't say the Mertz's were lower middle class

Oh, dear.

by Anonymousreply 53July 19, 2020 8:01 PM

The Mertz'es were more middle class' but it was' the Fiftie's so maybe by the standards' of the time's they were upper middle class'.

by Anonymousreply 54July 19, 2020 8:18 PM

Off-topic trivia: Miss Vivian Vance was godmother to famed musician/songwriter John Sebastian.

As you were.

by Anonymousreply 55July 19, 2020 9:30 PM

I wonder why they went with Frawley instead of Gale Gordon. Were he and Lucy not that close at that point?

Gordon guest starred on ILL, so they obviously knew each other.

Gordon was born in 1906 vs. Frawley in 1887 (can you believe that?). Vance's biggest complaint about Frawley as that he was 22 years old than she. Gordon would have been almost exactly the perfect age.

Frawley was fine, but I can't see that Gordon wouldn't have been as good.

by Anonymousreply 56July 19, 2020 9:52 PM

Gordon would have been a disaster. So pompous and pretentious. It made him perfect for Theodore Mooney but he couldn't muster any warmth as Fred Mertz. Frawley had a naturalness to his presence while Gordon always seems "on". Very fortunate for ILL that he wasn't available.

by Anonymousreply 57July 20, 2020 5:32 AM

[quote] I wonder why they went with Frawley instead of Gale Gordon. Were he and Lucy not that close at that point?

Discussed above. He had a major supporting part in the radio version of Our Miss Brooks with Eve Arden and had been signed to repeat the the role in the upcoming TV version.

by Anonymousreply 58July 20, 2020 5:43 AM

I’m watching the European tour episodes on MeTV, and I must say that Vance has some very chic and flattering outfits, she really looks as lovely as Ball, but realistically less fancy. Good costuming.

by Anonymousreply 59July 20, 2020 6:15 PM

Vance just couldn't wear clothes as well as Lucy. Not just because she was fatter but she had worse legs and thick ankles. It was always tough for larger women but even when they tried to improve her wardrobe, Vance still looked schlubby. Lucy could wear a housecoat and make it look elegant. In Ethel's Hometown, Viv is given an expensive gown with a corsage and she looks like a PTA mom.

by Anonymousreply 60July 20, 2020 10:16 PM

I was actually noticing how nice the clothes looked on her.

by Anonymousreply 61July 20, 2020 10:24 PM

I like how some old-timey names like "Vivian" have made a small comeback.

by Anonymousreply 62July 20, 2020 11:07 PM
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