Arlene Francis Shows Dorothy Kilgallen Her Place

I love this thread.

You bitches keep me in stitches.

You really needed to start a new thread for this OP?

That was a stupid and ignorant thing to say. Just shows Arlene didn't do her own shopping. We also had turkey all the time because it was really a cheap meal. I suspect Arlene just said that to get a laugh.

Turkey got Dorothy in trouble just before she died too.

Dorothy attended a preview performance of the musical Skyscraper whose tickets were sold at an inflated price for a charity event. Then in her column, she bitchily wrote that the elegant after-show turkey buffet dinner, held by the event's hosts at a swanky hotel was far superior to the musical turkey the guests had seen on stage that night.

This unleashed a firestorm on Broadway as Skyscraper was not yet open and therefore not ready to offer itself up to negative reviews. Dorothy, who had a habit of spectacularly missing the point, defended her pan of the show saying no one had ever criticized her for giving positive press to a show in previews. Apart from not understanding that the show might still work out some of its negatives before opening, Dorothy was blind to the fact that the inflated ticket price she groused about was for a charity and not for the show's producers.

Although Skyscraper flopped hard, and deservedly so, it did manage to outlive Dorothy who died (likely murdered) before the musical opened. Although she went to her death on Broadway's shit list, her bitchery turned out to be prescient. The practice of charging full price for tickets without officially opening reached the height of its abuse in 1968 when Dear World starring Angela Lansbury limped along for two full months of "previews." By then every critic in town was threatening to review the struggling show, whether it was open or not.

Dorothy's murder was swept aside.

There was a memorable exchange on the episode where Vivian Vance was the Mystery Guest.

The first guest ran a coffeehouse in Greenwich Village. Arlene was trying to nail down the location of the business, and asked if it was "below Herald Square." The contestant said yes.

"I'll have to pass to Steve Allen," Dorothy said, "as I've never gone below Herald Square."

"Oh, Dorothy," Arlene replied with a girlish laugh, "stick it up your ass, you drunk cooze. You've had to drag your husband out of the fruit bars in the Village more than once."

Vivian Vance was never a Mystery Guest on WML. Frankly, she wasn't famous enough (a featured actress on a TV sitcom?). And don't try and come up with the names of lots of obscure celebrities who made the list. They were not obscure in the 1950s.

I will give you this, however. In the early years of the show until the mid-1950s, TV stars often went unguessed by the panel, who often said they didn't watch much TV (Pot meet kettle!). I remember a particularly excruciating episode with Gale Storm, star of My Little Margie and Oh, Susannah!, who the panel didn't even seem to recognize unmasked.

I love those old shows.

Arlene was Armenian

[quote]Arlene was Armenian

I wouldn't know anything about that. I've never been to Armenia.

Dorothy was not murdered. She died of a seconal overdose, which in those days was sometimes listed on the death certificate as a heart attack. Read her biography.

Dorothy's family believed she was murdered. She was found dead on a bed in a room she never slept in. Although she never read a book twice, there was an open book she had already read propped open to make it look like she was reading in bed. She wasn't wearing her reading glasses, yet she couldn't see to read without them. She was still wearing her heavy TV makeup, but she had pale delicate skin and she never went to bed still wearing makeup. The dose of barbituates that killed her was too large for her to have taken accidentally, but too small to have represented a serious attempt at suicide. Her husband threatened the coroner with violence before he changed his mind about declaring the death a suicide.

All her notes and journals on the JFK killing disappeared as did her diary. A short time later, a close friend and confidante of hers also turned up dead mysteriously. Many think the man she was seeing on the side at the time had been assigned to her by the CIA. Having won her friendship and trust, it would have been easy for him to gain entry into her house under cover of innocence, and to allow others in to do the dirty deed.

Arlene played the world's oldest (and least believable) pregnant woman in "The Thrill of It All."

[R12] All this means is that Dorothy sill died of barbiturate poisoning. The fact that her family believes she was murdered means nothing, because there is nothing to support that. She was in full make-up when she died because she had already taken the seconal (mixed with alcohol) before getting into bed. Why would she even bother to remove her makeup if she was too sedated to do so?

Her story smacks of a drug and alcohol overdose, being disguised as a murder for the benefit of conspiracy theorists.

^sill = still

Dorothy's CIA killers probably administered a fatal dose of barbituates in liquid form to her via an enema. It would kill her rapidly and leave little to no trace of having been done. One well-trained grown man could overpower her and kill her then arrange the death scene. Two or three could have done it with no trouble at all.

Dorothy and Dick lived in a twenty-six room townhouse with several floors. It was too big for their small family, even with a house guest and servants. Many people could be in the house simultaneously, each unaware of the presence of the others. In the overnight hours her killers could have entered and left easily without being detected.

[R16] This is simply a frivolous claim. Dorothy was a gossip columnist, nothing more. She had no particular insight into the murder of JFK, even though she claimed to be investigating. Moreover, there is no support at all for the inference that the CIA wanted to kill her. That's like saying the CIA wanted Walter Winchell, Louella Parsons or Hedda Hopper dead.

R17, you bet your sweet ass J. Edgar Hoover over at the FBI had files on Winchell, Parsons, Hopper, and Kilgallen. TheFeds tracked everyone of importance then, just as they track everyone now.

[r17] Oh, please. J. Edgar Hoover had files on almost everyone, even President Kennedy his brother Robert, and Martin Luther King. You can't possibly expect us to accept that an FBI file on Dorothy Kilgallen, a gossip columnist, contained information that would warrant her death.

Dorothy Kilgallen was the only news person who got an interview with Jack Ruby. She was writing a book on the Kennedy assasination. She was a hard news person, whose father was the head of The International News Service for Europe. She got caught up in the gossip column business, when she really wanted to be a hard news reporter. The gossip became a money-earner, so she stayed with it.

She had warned friends that the felt she was being followed. The FBI followed her from the 1930s. She kept a file folder of her notes on the Kennedy assasination with her at all times, and gave a copy to her friend, who was the one who died very, very shortly after Dorothy. Both files are missing. She appeared worried during the few days before her murder and told one friend that if she tuned up dead, to know that it would be a murder. She gave Arlene a kiss each night before they left the show. In all of those years, the one time she skipped giving Arlene a kiss was the night of her murder. Arlene talked about how out of place that was for Dorothy.

Kilgallen was the first person to get a copy of the Warren Commission Report. Interestingly, the moderator of WML, Daley, ws married to the daughter of Warren. Hm. Bennet Cerf was to publish her book on the assasination. Dorothy said she had some information that would blow the whole JFK case 'wide open,' but she never told anybody what was in those stolen files of hers. The autopsy signature was forged. The ME whose signature was on it worked in a different borough in NYC, and he said he never signed it. It wasn't in his jurisdiction. Her murder fascinates me.

"Goodbye! No use leading with our chins!"

Is it bigger than a bread box?

who could play DK in the HBO treatment?

Kristen Schaal

I've only seen a few eps of What's My Line, but I love Arlene Francis. She has such a great sense of humor and seems far less affected than many actresses/women of her age at the time.

Cynthia Nixon in a brunette wig might be good casting for DK in a film bio. Or Emily Blunt.

How about Amber Tamblyn?

Maybe if they threw enough money at her, some starlet would have her chin implant taken out.

R12 Bull fucking shit. Dorothy was thick tongued and slurring on her final What's My Line?

She'd been taking those pills for year and years (very apparent on the show many night, and she even had to leave for a stint at a sanitarium.) One night, she finally took too many after building up what must have been a massive tolerance.

Murdered is a more juicy, interesting story, but it simply isn't true.

Anne Heche was going to play her in a Showtime movie that got put in turnaround.

They all drank before they went on camera on WML. That's the way it was in those days, like Mad Men. Kilgallen took one med. There were three meds in her eyetem, and the other pill bottles were not found. She filed her last report by giving it to a courier at 2:30 a.m. of the night she died. She was still working at 2:30 a.m.

[quote]Murdered is a more juicy, interesting story, but it simply isn't true.

The offical stories of the JFK assassination, the Apollo Moon landings, and 9/11 simply aren't true. Anyone with functional critical thinking skills can see right through them easily.

R31 no moron.

Kilgallen in the early years of the show was a delight every night, if a bit snobbish. By the early '60s, it was very apparent on the show that she'd developed a terrible pill problem. There are nights were she was barely speak.

She leaves the show for a while to spend some time at a sanitarium to deal with her problem circa 1963 or so. When she returns, she's okay for a while but then clearly slips back into old habits. The weeks leading up to her death again show a thick tongued, slurring Dorothy. She needed help and was not getting it.

She died of an overdose that night of her own doing. Any other theory is beyond absurd.

And they did not fucking drink every Sunday night before the show. This wasn't Match Game '74. There was one incident of Arlene being quite toasted one evening but beyond that I can only remember Dorothy in SEVERAL episodes spanning over 5 years seeming very pilled up and out of it.

Vivian Vance was an Emmy. She was famous enough to go on that show. But WML was a cheap show and they pretty much only used celebrities that happened to be in NYC. I doubt they paid any celeb to come on the show. So if the celeb wasn't in NYC, then they weren't considered.

Back then NY was the center of the entertainment world and there were always dozens and dozens of celebrities passing through to publicize their latest picture in a legitimate Broadway house,

A question for those who know these things: Arlene and Dorothy were always so well dressed every week on the show, especially during the 1960s when fashion took a beautiful turn.

Were those gowns their own, or were they provided by the show? Were they loaned? Or did they have a budget to purchase them?

[quote]But WML was a cheap show

And just think: in 1962 it was #9 in the ratings. Considering that production costs on a show like WML were a fraction of what a western or sit-com would cost, it must have made a fortune in profit for CBS.

Dorothy Kilgallen was a right-winger. One of the reasons the other panelists and host detested her.

And yet, R38, it was Democrat Bennett Cerf who robbed poor people via his phony Famous Writers' School and it was Bennett Cerf who ripped off America's greatest humorists via his humor anthologies that made plenty of money for Random House, barely any of which went to the writers who filled its pages.

Young gaylings, unfamiliar with Cerf, can enjoy this deliciously damning profile by Jessica Mitford:

A link to the R39, "Famous Writers School" scam mentioned. It is fascinating the greed of some people!

[quote]Dorothy Kilgallen was a right-winger.

Who wrote for the right-wing Journal-American.

I liked the way Dorothy make a sour face and turn up her nose when she'd ask "Would your record be played in a JUKEBOX?"

Dotty K looked like one of my father's sisters. So much so, Dotty K was her nickname.

For years the panelists were seated when the show began. They began making their entrances through the center curtains in response to the enormous amount of mail received from women asking Dorothy and Arlene to stand so that they could see their dresses. They became minor style icons for middle-class frau. I remember my mother saying one of the reasons she looked forward to the show every week was to see what Arlene and Dorothy would be wearing.

Did Arlene and Dorothy "Rue McClanahan" their dresses?

I just saw this show, Dorothy is quite the cunt on it. She is talking out of turn, bossing everyone around, telling them what to say. No wonder they killed her.

[quote]"Oh, Dorothy," Arlene replied with a girlish laugh, "stick it up your ass, you drunk cooze. You've had to drag your husband out of the fruit bars in the Village more than once."

I'm pretty sure that Arlene had the gay husband.

[quote]Bull fucking shit. Dorothy was thick tongued and slurring on her final What's My Line?

Around the middle of 1958 you can tell Dorothy is starting to lose it. She is forgetting things, on some shows, just pausing and stopping. Other shows she is acting all stupid and giddy and she's getting into arguments with John Daly. She was not really like this before then. She also started to really hate to lose. You could see it when she lost whether it was her fault or not.

The others realized it the game was second to the banter, Dorothy by this time just wanted to win.

I'm partial to r16's theory of death by enema.

Arlene Francis and her fellow do nothing pal Kitty Carlisle were two of the most useless women in show business. What did they do other than do game show panels?

R51, They had class, sass, and panache.Were both elegant ladies. Something we apparently will never see again. Especially now with a whore as FLOTUS. That's today's idea of elegance.

Interesting that on the next show after Dorothy's death, NOBODY on it referenced her death. Just said someone was guest hosting as if it was nothing. None of them ever said a word about it after that either despite having worked together for years. Clearly they were threatened with a similar fate if they spoke up.

R51, in addition to her game show duties, Arlene Francis had her own regular radio & TV shows. I believe she may've also been the first woman to guest host the Tonight Show.

[quote]Interesting that on the next show after Dorothy's death, NOBODY on it referenced her death. Just said someone was guest hosting as if it was nothing. None of them ever said a word about it after that either despite having worked together for years. Clearly they were threatened with a similar fate if they spoke up.

The show after Dorothy's death featured a somber opening with John Daly explaining what happened and saying that Dorothy's husband thought it best they play the game as usual. A very subdued game ensues, and at the end panelists share brief memories of Dorothy. And there was no guest host.

Thank you, for setting it straight R55.

It's a well-kept secret that Arlene's husband Martin Gabel died while Arlene was giving him a blowjob.

If only she hadn't learned how to play the trombone.

At least he died with a smile on his face.

R51. Bearded

Does anyone know why the 1966-67 shows are not in color? My guess is that since WML had no syndication marketability for repeats, CBS didn't want to bother with the expense.

I'm old enough to remember sitting in the floor watching this show with my parents. Years later I learned that Dorothy Kilgallen wasn't liked by the rest of the panelists because she was so right -wing while the others were very New York/liberal/intellectual sophisticates. Francis was a favorite she was always charming and liked to have fun. Bennett Cerf and John Daly, all of them actually, always acted and teased one another like they were at a black-tie cocktail party...very high tone ...the bar has been lowered folk!

r59

They wanted to move the show to LA and Arlene was all like, "I can barely get a job here." And publishing is still based in NYC, so they'd lose Bennett too.

Shows in the 60s moved to color when they moved to LA

Ed Sullivan didn’t have to move to LA and his show was in color by 1965.

So...there’s that.

What did Arlene do, really? Was she an actress or a socialite or what?

r13 I hold that record

What's with all the Dorothy Kilgallen threads at the top of the page all of a sudden?

Anyway, I was watching the documentary Studio 54 on Netflix this past weekend and learned that the nightclub was actually the same building where What's My Line was filmed. It used to be owned by CBS but then they shuttered and moved their studios to Los Angeles at which point Steve and Ira bought the place and turned it into Studio 54.

R7 According to this list of all WML mystery guests, Vivian Vance did appear as one.