Dorothy Kilgallen was a snob

OP = Jackie Susann

I loved her on "What's My Line?"

She was too busy to do her own grocery shopping. She and her husband had servants to deal with such mundane tasks. It had nothing to do with being "stuck up".

Kilgallen was murdered because she knew too much. She was not found in an alley in Hell's Kitchen with a needle sticking out of her arm.

[quote]It comes in supermarkets

What was the "it" she was referring to?

In 1964 swear I saw Dorothy Kilgallen at a Gristedes on 86th street. So I guess it really wasn't her.

The "it" was a food product someone made on "What's my line."

And she was a stuck up snob, she was too good to go shopping for herself. "Let the PRs do it," was a common phrase for her, no doubt.

[quote] "Let the PRs do it," was a common phrase for her, no doubt.

PRs? The Kollmars had a butler, three maids, a cook, a kitchen help, and a nanny. I don't know if any of them were Puerto Rican.

If it was NYC in the 50s they were PRs

Years ago I had a reference book on television shows. I loved the What's My Line section where it referred to "pert" Arlene Francis and "quince-faced" Dorothy Kilgallen.

Did they really have supermarkets, as we know them now, in Manhattan in the 50s and 60s? Yes, the remark on the face of it does sound horribly snobbish and elitist, but there may be some context here as well.

Awwww Faye! I fell in love with your tits.

Shit, the goddam refrigerator door won't fucking open!

I'm a life-long fan of WML, watched the later episodes first run in high school and have been thrilled to catch up with all of them from 1950 onwards on youtube. Such a smart clever show and what insights to Show Business in the middle decades of the 20th century.

Dorothy was a complex and fascinating woman. There was a so-so bio of her by Lee Israel about 25 years ago but it didn't have the support of her family or friends so there's not much juice in it. And I fear there are not many people under 60 now who would be interested in reading a better one.

I think Emily Blunt could be great casting for the movie version of Dollie Mae's (not Dottie!!) life story.

Is Emily Blunt "quince-faced"?

Chinless, perhaps. Quince-faced, definitely not.

Well, to be fair, there were no Whole Foods in 1963.

Hers is a story left unfinished. Her death has been suspicious, and there was speculation she knew something undisclosed related to the JFK assassination and investigation, and was soon planning to make certain revelations. She had strong connection with some important people in the media, government, and the entertainment industry. She knew the gossip among insiders, and revealed such in the past.

She had several abortions, I think that is false, as I doubt anyone would fuck her and there was no gravy ladle babies back then.

Supermarkets were not common as they are today.

One bought meat from a butcher, vegetables from the produce man, bread from the baker. It was common to call your order to the store and get it delivered.

Supermarkets as we now know them were new and not trusted.

Like so many of the famous, she overdosed with a deadly combination of alcohol and barbiturates, leading to a heart attack. She was 52. She was married 25 years and had 3 kids.

They had tons o' supermarkets in the 50s and 60s.

She was a self-righteous bitch, using her newspaper column to destroy any Broadway star that didn't kowtow to her whimsy, while secretly being a drug addicted junkie.

Supermarkets were suburban then -- Dorothy was not.

At that time, supermarkets were more likely to be found in suburbs or in NY the outer boroughs. There were a lot of small grocery stores in the city and 19 is largely right about how a lot of people shopped and had food delivered. Then again, Dottie likely did not do her own shopping and was probably a bit of a snob.

Yes, NYC and Manhattan has supermarkets, Sloan's Supermarkets opened in 1956 and had 20 locations in Manhattan by the end of the 50s. By the time he died Manhattan had over 40 of his supermarkets. A&P had supermarkets in Manhattan in the 40s.

Granted there were more in the suburbs but there were plenty in Manhattan. Kilgallen was just a lazy bitch who would rather see people of color do her work as she got rich by blackmailing people into NOT writing about them.

Too bad this cunty little junkie didn't write about her own filthy drug habit. Maybe she could've saved herself.

Frank Sinatra called Dorothy "the chinless wonder."

Her single-family townhouse at 45 East 68th Street has been converted to five apartments.

Her death was not suspicious, R17. She drank, took drugs and over dosed.

Kilgallen being involved in this bullshit JFK conspiracy rumor ought to have died years ago, only fools keep repeating it.

She and hubby, Richard Kollmar, had a daily program on WOR, "Breakfast With Dorothy and Dick." They tried to sound folksy while chatting from their 10-room Park Avenue apartment. Later moved to 68th Street.

Dorothy was murdered by the Canaanites, same as Joan Rivers was murdered by the Canaanites - for knowing too much about their crimes and talking about it.

Dorothy and Streisand grew up in Flatbush and graduated from Erasmus Hall High School.

A&P's were not supermarkets, they were chain grocery stores. more like the size of 7/11 or CVS. Supermarkets were a new thing even in the suburbs in the U.S. They only achieved market dominance in the late 1960's as the smaller corner markets started shutting down, unable to compete with the behemoths.

[R15] Compare your pic to this one. She's definitely "quince-faced".

Floor plan for Dorothy's and Dick's apartment at 630 Park Avenue. The servants rooms at the back were used as offices for Dorothy's secretaries.

There would have been no need for Dorothy or any of her help to go into a supermarket. Orders were telephoned in and markets delivered to the well off. Fifth and Park Avenue types doing their own household shopping is a relatively new thing.

There was an A&P Supermarket in my town in the 60's, R30. It was a regular sized supermarket, although not a huge one. There was a Stop & Shop too, although I think that was over the town line and into the next town.

There were local grocers that had stores much smaller than the big supermarkets. We had a butcher, dairy delivery, a fish market and so on. It was a different way of shopping but the supermarkets had already made their appearance.

The bottom line is Kilgallen was a snob and a snot for saying that on TV. Can you imgaine if she was alive today she'd be like 'How would I know what it's like to go to Macy's? I only shop as Saks."

And she was a junkie. She was probably making fun of her poor staff and blowing winos in the gutter to get a hit on her junk.

R34, your town was not NYC so it doesn't count.

Oh, I hadn't realized it was only NYC you were talking about.

Carry on.

Dorothy was from the Irish Chicago South Side, same as our family.

And instead of embracing her poor roots, she turned her back on her own people and became a snob. Good riddance to stuck up rubbish.

And yet about the only fun thing to do in Aspen is go to the market and look at all the stars, who when they're there insist on doing their own shopping. Incompetently.

Dorothy was not being a snob. She was making a point that she was a woman who did not feel obliged to follow mid-century expectations for what women were to do. She was not harking back to the servant/leisure-class arrangement. She was looking ahead to the future when a woman was not necessarily a housewife.

And I didn't even like the woman. So cut her some slack, through being informed and not a cunt.

And if the point hasn't already been clearly made, there were absolutely NO supermarkets, or grocery stores for that matter, in the upper east side of Dorothy's neighborhood. In fact, there still aren't and one would have to traipse all the way over to 3rd Ave. to find one.

Her sister Eleanor, a talent agent, died last December at age 95.

Her long stint on WML made her a household name and face to millions of Americans, a very rare achievement for a homely NY based gossip columnist in mid-century America, even if she was decidedly of the "woman you love to hate" variety. Aparently, she once blurted out about colleague Arlene Francis: "Why can't I ever be the adorable one?"

The other great mystery concerning Kilgallen (besides the questionable circumstances of her death) was her relationship to pop singer Johnnie Ray. Ray was thought to be gay, yet they seemed to be in some sort of romantic relationship....or was that just her POV?

Her husband Dick Kollmar eventually committed suicide. Was he implicated in Dorothy's murd....umm....death?

Dorothy's husband Richard Koller was gayer than gay.

Kollmar, fucking spell check.

Kilgallen and Kollmar slept on separate floors in their townhouse.

And yet they had three kids.

R27, There were a lot of conspiracy theories in the tabloids and even mentioned in related books and a few mainstream articles.. While none of it may be true, there were plenty of characters out there promoting such. The JFK angle was advanced by one writer claiming she had a private meeting with Jack Ruby in a courtroom However, there was no collaboration to substantiate it. It is foolish to be gullible, but certainly the story did not emerge in a void. I believe also it was simply a drug and alcohol overdose. She had enemies as well as a reputation for sensational revelations. All that played into off-beat speculations, and of course some seeking to stretch the information for profit. R17

[quote] Kilgallen and Kollmar slept on separate floors in their townhouse.

[quote] And yet they had three kids.

They moved to the townhouse after the children were born.

[quote]They moved to the townhouse after the children were born.

After the spousal duty had been performed and they could live their own lives.

I've always thought I could live with someone if we had separate floors, or like acquaintances of mine, houses next door to each other. At the very least, separate bedrooms.

[quote] there were absolutely NO supermarkets, or grocery stores for that matter, in the upper east side of Dorothy's neighborhood.

Bullshit, but even if you were to accept this, are you saying she NEVER left that few square miles in her life? She was a snot for saying that she's above going into a supermarket. Why are you defending a woman that used to blackmail hardworking actresses and actors into giving her things and making her famous in return for NOT writing things that were untrue, but she didn't care 'cause the public would believe her lies.

She was a major cunt and a stuck up one to boot.

JACK RUBY'S GOSSIP GAL: Dorothy Kilgallen

My buddy Robert Sanchez (the Garland author of the new novel "What's Good for Gara") recently loaned me "Killgallen," Lee Israel's bio about Dorothy Kilgallen. Kilgallen was a controversial gossip columnist for Hearst's New York Journal-American. The week after Kennedy's assassination, she wrote: I'd like to know how in a big smart town like Dallas, a man like Jack Ruby — operator of a striptease honky tonk — could stroll in and out of police headquarters as if it were a health club at a time when a small army of law enforcers was keeping a "tight security guard" on Oswald. ••• In February of 1964, Killgallen visited Dallas to cover Jack Ruby's trial. Her Feb. 21, 1964 Journal-American column criticized the Department of Justice for not turning over evidence collected by the Warren Commission to Ruby's defense team. She quoted Attorney General Herbert Miller, who stated in a letter to Ruby's team that the evidence "concerning Oswald's assassination of the President will not be made available as it does not appear to be relevant." After that column appeared, Ruby wanted to meet Kilgallen: She's known as the only journalist to privately interview Ruby while he was in county jail.

This passage — about that first introduction — from Israel's bio caught my attention: Dorothy and Jack shook hands at the defense table. She tried to cheer him by complimenting him on his composure. He said that he would welcome the chance to go to a hospital, get well, and perhaps do something "worthwhile." It occurred to her that anything Ruby might choose to do would be a step up from his former life in Dallas. Dorothy asked him whether he was prepared to face the questions about his sexuality, which would undoubtedly be raised at the trial. He replied that he was expecting the issue to be broached. He was, after all, a bachelor who referred to his pet dachshund as his wife. ••• Kilgallen believed she was going to crack the JFK conspiracy case. In September of 1965, she wrote, "This story isn't going to die as long as there's a real reporter alive — and there are a lot of them." Kilgallen was found dead in her apartment on Nov. 8, 1965.

DETAILS OF HER DEATH She was fully dressed and sitting upright in her bed. The police reported that she had died from taking a cocktail of alcohol and barbiturates. The notes for the chapter she was writing on the case had disappeared. Friends believed Kilgallen had been murdered. Marc Sinclaire was Kilgallen's personal hairdresser. He often woke Kilgallen in the morning. Kilgallen was usually out to the early hours of the morning and like her husband always slept late. When he found her body he immediately concluded she had been murdered. Kilgallen was not sleeping in her normal bedroom. Instead she was in the master bedroom, a room she had not occupied for several years. Kilgallen was wearing false eyelashes. According to Sinclaire she always took her eyelashes off before she went to bed. She was found sitting up with the book, The Honey Badger, by Robert Ruark, on her lap. Sinclaire claims that she had finished reading the book several weeks earlier (she had discussed the book with Sinclaire at the time). Kilgallen had poor eyesight and could only read with the aid of glasses. Her glasses were not found in the bedroom where she died. Kilgallen was found wearing a bolero-type blouse over a nightgown. Sinclaire claimed that this was the kind of thing "she would never wear to go to bed".

"Did they really have supermarkets, as we know them now, in Manhattan in the 50s and 60s? "

How the hell do you think people got food, R10? From my knowledge, A&P on the UES. If you wanted delivery, you ordered from the smaller, more expensive Gristedes.

What's the big deal about hiring people to do your food shopping? I'm all for providing jobs to people to do these mundane things.

There are some amateur sleuths in San Diego "reopening" an investigation.

Sounds kinda crackpot but I'd still be interested in the juice.

I'm with you, R55. I can't imagine why anyone who has enough money wouldn't have others take care of such mundane tasks.

[quote] The JFK angle was advanced by one writer claiming she had a private meeting with Jack Ruby in a courtroom However, there was no collaboration to substantiate it.

I can't believe that people are so gullible.

The word you are looking for is corroboration not collaboration.

^ You priss worried about an auto spell mistake off a smart phone? Get treatment you small minded troll prick.

Welcome to the Datalounge, newbie @ r59.

Spelling and grammar count here. No excuses, electronic or otherwise, are acceptable.

That is all.

Two years after Kilgallen's death, Kollmar married Anne Fogarty, who oddly enough designed the dress Kilgallen wore on her final WML? appearance, just hours before her body was discovered.

[quote]What's the big deal about hiring people to do your food shopping?

In fact, what rich people were able to do 50 years ago, we can all do now: order groceries from home and have them delivered. Via the internet.

Supermarket chains were well established in the US by the 1950s.

But even in the 1970s there weren't many in NYC. There was one on the UWS and I remember a big Gristedies at 9th avenue in the old Henry Hudson Hotel. I imagine the UES had a couple but not West of 3rd Avenue. .

Gristede's (founded by two brothers from Germany) had small stores. Checking an old phone book, along Madison Avenue there were ten stores between 62nd and 96th. A similar number on Lexington, and Broadway north of Columbus Circle. Almost a hundred locations in Manhattan..

R63 Of course those were not supermarkets, they were grocery stores.

When Kilgallen says she "wouldn't know anything about supermarkets", she was actually speaking for most New Yorkers at the time.

Now it's beginning to sound that our problem is we are confused about the term supermarket. In NYC even now, Gristedes, D'agastino's and even Whole Foods and Trader Joe's are nowhere near as large as suburban supermarkets all over the rest of the country. Some are probably smaller than 2000 square feet. And of course, they don't have parking lots attached to them.

But we in NYC would still call them supermarkets.

Can we gossip a little more about poor lovely Dorothy?

There are fewer supermarkets in Manhattan. Landlords can get higher rent from banks and CVS, Duane Reade, Rite Aid and Walgreens. Gristede's has been pushed out of three locations over a few years. The owner said he considered going out of business, but with 2,000 employees, he'll continue to operate at a 2% margin for as long as he can. D'Agostino (famly-owned since 1932) had 26 stores, all in upscale neighborhoods, now there are 13 .

Although she came in second, in 1936, at age 23, Kilgallen was one of 3 newspaper reporters (the other 2 were men) who competed in a race around the world using only public transportation. She wrote about the event in her best-selling book GIRL AROUND THE WORLD which became the film FLY-AWAY BABY starring Glenda Farrell and became the prototype for the iconic intrepid American girl reporter later personified by the likes of Rosalind Russell and even Lois Lane.

In 1962, the new term "Supermarket" invariably meant: self service, carts, multiple check outs, groceries as well as household items like cleaning products, parking.

And Supermarkets were more than likely free standing stores.

[quote]And yet they had three kids.

You don't need to go to a supermarket to buy a turkey baster.

Of course no one ever saw here at Gristede's. She wasn't On Assistance.

[quote]Can we gossip a little more about poor lovely Dorothy?

Here's a photo of her on her last WML?, hours before she died.

Watching the old reruns, she and Arlene Francis are both very sharp, but where Arlene couched her questions in charm, Dorothy came off like a lawyer in cross-examination and took the game very seriously. She was a tough cookie and a good reporter in addition to being a gossip columnist.

On the first Dorothy-less episode after her death, the panel missed guessing every guest.

"On the first Dorothy-less episode after her death... "

I was only a kid, but I remember watching that episode.

Have you a supermarket opening in New York?

Goodson and Todman, producers of WML (and all those other 1950s/60s/70s game shows) tried out different ladies to replace Dorothy, including gossip columnist Suzy Knickerbocker (who came closest to Dorothy's sour snobbiness), Polly Bergen (who desperately wanted the job), Phyllis Newman (nothing like Dorothy except that she was annoying in entirely less entraining way) and NY newscaster Sue Oakland (who??).

But ultimately they decided to just keep a revolving seat of those and other ladies. Dorothy was one of a kind and really irreplaceable.

The show died out after just 3 more seasons. Goodson/Todman wanted to "goose it up" with some gimmicks but staid host John Charles Daly refused to play along.

entraining=entertaining

[quote]The show died out after just 3 more seasons. Goodson/Todman wanted to "goose it up" with some gimmicks but staid host John Charles Daly refused to play along.

Daly left. Goodson-Todman did a syndicated version on a hideous set, dropped the honorifics ("the lovely star of stage and television, Miss Arlene Francis" was now just ARLENE), shortened the games in favor of having contestants demonstrate their jobs, added the awful Soupy Sales to the panel, and the star quality of the Mystery Guests became hit-or-miss.

There was none of this horseplay on the original, MARY!

[quote]The show died out after just 3 more seasons.

Unfortunately by 1967 it was an anachronism: the evening gowns, the mid-atlantic accents, the cleverness....it belonged to another, more gracious era.

I bet Kilgallen was like, "And the maid, quit and I had to empty the dishwasher all by myself."

"Brought to you by STOPETTE. Poof — there goes PERSPIRATION!"

Dorothy was also very disdainful about young people's music. Only once it had been established that a musical mystery guest had never played Basin Street East did she ask him if he played Rock n' Roll -- and then seemingly under protest.

The Basin Street East question was one of her signatures, Like Bennett asking if the guest "knew Toots Shor" or if he was "involved with food or drink," and Kitty asking if he knew the name of the editor of Women's Wear Daily.

Or whether someone performed in the legitimate theater, R80?

[quote]Dorothy was also very disdainful about young people's music. Only once it had been established that a musical mystery guest had never played Basin Street East did she ask him if he played Rock n' Roll -- and then seemingly under protest.

"Do you play 'jukebox' music?"

Just so, R81 and R82.

Dorothy was no more disdainful of rock and roll than most adult Americans in the 1950s, including NYers.

It may be hard to believe now, but that music was really thought be just a passing fad until the end of the decade when it became clear it was here to stay.

Dorothy Kilgallen's husband died under mysterious circumstances as well.

Mysteries and Scandals special.

The day she died, she had just taped an episode of "What's My Line". The episode still aired that night. Here's her final appearance. She would die just a few hours later.

Here's her Wikipedia page. You should really check it out. It's fascinating!

Our former BIG RESOURCEFUL thread on her.

The term supermarket was not new in 1962. It was coined by William Albers in the mid-30s. Albers who worked for Kroger and the founded a chain in Cincinnati that eventually was bought by Colonial Stores out of Atlanta. There were numerous super markets before WWII--A&P began opening them in 1937. The early stores and the ones that opened in the 40s and 50s were smaller than what we have now, but they had groceries, produce, packaged goods, etc. They had them in NYC in the mid-60. They were small er than suburban stores but not by much.

Kilgallen was something of reactionary as well as chinless and a snob.

R-87, That was a "live" broadcast, not taped. In fact, when her body was found propped up in bed the next morning, she was still wearing her television make-up from the night before.

Dorothy had taped an episode of "To Tell the Truth" which was aired just hours after her body was discovered, and CBS announced her death at the conclusion of the "TTTT" episode. I've tried for years to find a recording of that episode, but no one seems to have it, not even private collectors.

I have seen several major celebrities in the supermarket previously. That includes a former President of the USA.

If Kilgallen didn't shop for groceries with a hubby and 3 kids, that is weird, even if she did have hired household help.

I can't seem to find the clip but there's a very funny episode of WML in which the contestant is a chorus boy from the currently running musical Wish You Were Here which was produced by Dorothy's husband Richard Kollmar.

Yet she doesn't recognize the chorus boy and doesn't guess his occupation. IIRC, no one on the panel guesses his occupation.

I guess chorus boys back in the 1950s got much less attention than they do now.

You can access that What's My Line on YouTube by searching for "What's My Line? Phil Silvers Cesar Romero."

Something fishy about it, though. It aired in 1958, five years after Wish You Were Here closed. Unless they meant that he was in some summer-theatre production. But that wouldn't have been produced by Kollmar, surely. And the show explicitly bills this chorus boy as being in Wish You Were Here.

Also, he doesn't look like any chorus boy I've ever seen. That was a Joshua Logan musical, notorious for chorus-buy lookers, and this one, Ed Becker, is chunky and without appeal. He seems to be a singer, so, yes, he could have worked on Broadway in the chorus. Just not in Wish You Were Here, with its swimming-pool scene filled with chorus boys in trunks. Tom Tryon was one of them.

.....

We knew a sister who sometimes saw Bette Davis in the supermarket in WeHo.

When Julie London was on their "Queen of the Snobs" Kilgallen was about ready to hit her, 'cause London used a fake beatnik voice.

You can bet Kilgallen stayed up the next night thinking of ways to crucify her in her column for not living up to HER standard.

The big blackout that hit much of the northeast occurred on the same day as Dorothy's death.

At a party that was still held in NYC the evening of the blackout, the guests decided to telephone Richard Kollmar to express condolences.

A drunken Joan Crawford grabbed the phone and said, "Richard, the entire city of New York has lowered their lights for your beloved Dorothy.".

Merv Griffin attended the party and told this story for years.

And from right around that time: Joan on the Merv Griffin show.

Thanks so much for posting the clip, r96.

I misremembered and the Broadway show the chorus boy appeared in was The Body Beautiful, which I assume was currently running, not Wish You Were Here from an earlier season.

I think he's quite cute! As Arlene and Bennett remark in trying to unmask his occupation, he's "husky, well-built and raffish." I'd imagine he'd fill out a 1950s speedo quite nicely. It's just all that dowdy 1950s grooming, Brylcream in the hair, boxy suit, etc. that makes him look far older than his years. Even stylish Dorothy who would have been in her early 40s here looks 20 years older to us today.

Why does everyone ask Crawford fashion questions? She gives the same dull answer.

"Dorothy was also very disdainful about young people's music"

Boo hoo. So were Nat King Cole, Tony Bennett, Frank Sinatra and a dozen others. When Natalie Cole was asked what her father would think about being inducted into the Rock n Roll Hall of Fame, she said he'd be turning in his grave.

Dorothy also despised country & western music, as it was called then. When members of the Grand Ole Opry came to NY to perform at Carnegie Hall, Dorothy in her column advised fans of good music to leave town for the weekend.

Ed Becker was also in the original chorus of "Bye Bye Birde" on B'way..

For all you Ed Becker fans out there, here is at around 7:30.

It's also worth watching this clip to see Dick Van Dyke do the "Put On A Happy Face" number. This is of course before the DVDShow. It was his first starring role... and my God is he sensational! An audience seeing him for the first time must have been blown away.

[quote]When members of the Grand Ole Opry came to NY to perform at Carnegie Hall, Dorothy in her column advised fans of good music to leave town for the weekend.

Well that ends all discussion, the bitch is one mutha fuckin' snob.

Well, it makes a lot more sense that this Ed Becker was in a musical about boxing, because that heavy look of his would not be out of place in the ring. (Though Steve Forrest played a boxer in that show, too, and in his Everlasts he looked absolutely delicious.) Becker seems to be a tenor, so he could beef up the chorus sound so important in those days, and he could double in character roles like the tavern keeper in Bye Bye Birdie, joining in in the backup for "Talk To Me." But he certainly wasn't standard-issue chorus boy for the era.

R84, R102, I happen to share a lot of her disdain -- It wasn't an indictment. But it does lend to her overall air of urbane sniffiness.

In attitude, Dorothy was one level worse than a know-it-all; she was a smartypants.

I saw Ed Becker in the chorus of "Goodtime Charlie" .

I think Ed deserves his own thread.

Then you are mistaken, and terribly so.

R27 Busy debunking Data Lounge talk and spelling of old conspiracy theories involving personalities from over 50 years ago?

i just watched wml and dorothy says 'so you're saying i could do this lying down and eating.' and the host says 'is that you're question, and the snob says 'no, i'm just thinking cause i'm sitting next to buddy hackett.'

what a bitch, just because he's overweight she is implying he's lazy and fat.

WEHT Ed Becker? Is he still with us? Ed, are you on DL?

He seems to have worked steadily through the 1960's and on up to "Goodtime Charlie" in 1975.

And then nothin'.

There's a closed "What's My Line?" group on Facebook. I don't think it takes much to get approved to read it.

There are some serious obsessives in there, which is why I like it.

Their collection of Arlene Francis photographs is called "the ARLchive."

I loved Dorothy Kilgallen, but she was a terrible New York snob. More than once on the show she told mystery guests who said they'd been on the stage that unless they had been on the Broadway stage they were not stage actors, including a renowned British actress, which must have been an embarrassing faux pas.

I'm a member of that WML facebook page. At first I was thrilled to find that there were other people out there who were also obsessed with a 65 year old game show and celebs like Dorothy, Arlene and Bennett. But many of the fans there are beyond obsessive.

Bennett Cerf said, "Isn't a whale also a fish?" OK he's too stupid not only to be a publisher but to live.

R116 meet R117.

I was also a member of that "WML?" Facebook group, just to watch the vintage episodes. Some of the members are way beyond obsessive, analyzing nearly every comment and gesture made by the panelists, host and guests. Too creepy for me.

I've always found Bennett Cerf to be kind of hot.

I always keep waiting for his name to come on those celebrities-I-have-fucked threads.

Suzy Knickerbocker, who replaced Dorothy on some weeks. They never did settle on a permanent replacement.

What did they put in the water on those sets? Dorothy might have died young, but Arlene Francis, Kitty Carlisle, and Bess Myerson all lived into their 90s, and Betsy Palmer almost did too.

Who would have loved the Gays more, Arlene or Dorothy?

Arlene by a country mile, R122.

R117, Bennett seemed pretty clueless about animal taxonomy in general. He also distinguished between animals, insects, birds and fish, as though the latter 3 weren't animals at all.

I think that, for him, if it swam it was a fish, if it flew it was a bird, if it crawled, it was an insect, and if it was furry, it was an "animal."

I love Bennett but he often made a fool of himself referring to grown women as "girls" and obviously thinking he was somehow flattering them with the term.

He also looked down at rock and roll with disdain and renounced the Paris fashions of the late 1950s like The Chemise, The Sacque and the The Trapeze that hid those adorable girls' lovely figures.

Bennett's first wife was the ravishing actress Sylvia Sidney and they made a sexy couple in the mid-1930s during their brief marriage. He admitted in an interview that he was disturbed and jealous of all the attention she would receive as a famous movie star when they were out in public.

Women were called "girls" or "ladies" until the feminist movement of the late '60s early '70s. My grandmother called her friends girls. Nobody called women "women" back then.

I always found Bennett Cerf's upper class sounding but very New York accent fascinating. I wonder if there are any people who speak like him anymore.

In our family 'women' was used only to refer to 'cleaning women'.

Sadly, Bennett Cerf was deeply involved with a horrible scam called The Famous Writer's School. The correspondence course in writing was vastly overpriced and sold aggressively to writers of no skill or promise. Very few who enrolled completed the course, yet they were strong-armed into paying hundreds of dollars in on-going fees. This despite the fact that the "school" could never sue anyone who failed to pay its hefty fees for the simple reason that any judge in the USA would have recognized the outfit for the swindle it was

In 1970 Jessica Mitford wrote a legendary take-down of the Famous Writer's School in The Atlantic. The article played a role in the disbanding of the fraudulent enterprise.

I wonder how much Arlene, Dorothy and Bennett were paid for their services?

It must have been great for them to that check come in every week for 17 years.

Sorry for the typo: "It must have been great for them to have that check come in every week for 17 years."

The great comic writer S. J. Perelman despised Bennett Cerf because Random House sold millions of copies of Bennett Cerf's annual humor anthologies while paying the contributing writers peanuts for their work. It was a dilemma. The writer who held out for money would be eliminated from the volume and thus expelled from a national pantheon of talent. But the huge readership for the anthologies translated into little material gain for the writers and fat profits for the publisher. Perelman thought Cerf was a pirate thief of talent.

The cast of What's My Line? ended up being paid very well for having an hour of fun once a week. Bennett Cerf later said it was like stealing money.

R162 "..always found Bennett Cerf's upper class sounding but very New York accent fascinating."

So do I.

Kitty Carlisle also had a tinge of a NY accent mixed in with her upper crust pronunciation. I love it.

Actually, I always thought Barbara Walters' speech patterns were similar to Bennett's. JUst think of the way he introduced John Charles Daly as "our panel modawaita".

At least Bennett was from New York. Kitty Carlisle was from New Orleans and educated in Europe. She was putting her accent on.

All gossip columnists in those days worked with the CIA and the FBI. Since they were widely read and listened to on radio by millions, they were the perfect propaganda tool. Hoover gathered intelligence (and smut) on his enemies and threatened them through the gossip columns. Even a blind item could ruin your career. Stars, authors, studio heads who plaid ball with the rightwing were given good publicity through the gossip columnists.

John Miller, the journalist/NYPD/FBI guy was the son of a CIA/FBI guy who moonlighted as a gossip columnist. His father wrote 7 different columns under 6 different names and was pals with mobster/CIA/FBI informant Frank Costello, whose wife was Miller's godmother. The mob, the intelligence agencies and the press (so called "journalists") have been in bed with each other since the 1920s.

R134 Carlisle was faking nothing.

The New Orleans accent is often compared with NY's Brooklyn accent.

[quote] Who would have loved the Gays more, Arlene or Dorothy?

Definitely Arlene. Dorothy wasn't anti-gay, but she had a mindset similar to "don't ask, don't tell". But, then there was that whole Johnnie Ray thing.

I kind of picture Arlene showing up in a late-60s/early-70s gay bar and all the men gasping at her like Margo Channing in Applause.

Exactly R138

Dorothy was married to a closeted gay husband, Richard Kollmar, had an alleged fling with the very gay Johnny Ray and counted among her friends Anthony Perkins.

How more gay friendly could she be?

But back then, gay men were admired and loved only if they were straight acting, at least in straight company. Any show of effeminacy was not tolerated. While men like Liberace and Johnnie Ray clearly appear gay to us now, they really toned themselves down in public and most of the world was fooled.

Truman Capote was the rare exception but he was considered such a rara avis he got away with it (sort of).

[quote]In our family 'women' was used only to refer to 'cleaning women'.

And I assume that "ladies" was reserved for "ladies of the evening."

"Fish" is a much better word.

[quote]Bennett seemed pretty clueless about animal taxonomy in general.

He seemed to take the word "animal" to mean "mammal."

[quote]But the huge readership for the anthologies translated into little material gain for the writers and fat profits for the publisher. Perelman thought Cerf was a pirate thief of talent.

So he was like YouTube is today.

Quentin Crisp was way more flamboyant than Truman Capote.

[quote] Quentin Crisp was way more flamboyant than Truman Capote.

But, both equally vile bitches.

But Quentin Crisp was unknown and did not appear on American TV until the 1970s.

Miss Crisp was FABULOUS, maybe TOO fabulous for Miss r146

[quote]But back then, gay men were admired and loved only if they were straight acting.

Meet Monty Rock the 3rd.

Arlene Francis had a daily program on WOR for twenty years. She did an interview with an author (who sounded gay) about the Plaza Hotel and Cotillions, she said to him "If I haven't come out by now I never will." They both laughed hysterically. Doubt many listeners got the inside joke.

r150: This may well have been double-entendre about being gay as you suggest, but back in Arlene Francis' day, "coming out" of course referred to making your debut in society circles. At that time of the radio show Arlene Francis must have been fairly old, so they could have been laughing uproariously about her age (and probably at the time "coming out" was not so frequently used to mean gay at least to the general public).

If there is a Hell, and if everyone's Hell is personalized to their own particular dislikes, then I would imagine Miss Kilgallen is spending eternity in the worst Walmart in the country, and every day is Black Friday.

JFK and Jackie maintained separate bedrooms in the White House and elsewhere.

She was up to her old snobby tricks again. I watched a couple of more "What's my line" shows.

First she said, "are you Jimmy Gleason," and then he says no. She's all miffed. I'm like bitch you didn't get it right.

Then Arlene Francis, says on the first try, are you with a racetrack. The guy answers yes, Arlene being much classier than Dorothy apologizes immediately, cause she realizes he may go home empty handed, if she gets it right off, so she asks, "Are you a seller"? Of course Dorothy then asks about wine and vintage, and says, "of course when you said, 'seller,' I thought of wine cellar." I guess in her uppity world everyone has a wine cellar, even a guy who works at a racetrack.

You people probably think Dorothy is also a snob for not wanting to go to a nudist camp.

How does one post a link from WML on DL? I've tried to post a few times but always from youtube clips and I get a message from DL saying it's a bad link. Is that because it's through youtube?

TIA!

In another thread, someone posted a clip of a WML from 1964 with Elizabeth Ashley as the special guest.

Let's just say the ten years that had elapsed between the show's start and that point had not been kind to Dorothy or the area where her chin should have been.

When did they rotate them and give Arlene the place of honor on the left end?

Frank Sinatra hated her with a passion. He would refer to her as "The Chinless Wonder" in his nightclub acts.

She covered her first story as a cub reporter in our county seat Salem, NJ. Of course, it was an affluent Quaker town then, and Dorothy loved it from what I'm told. It's now a fucking ghetto now, and Kilgallen wouldn't stop to take a piss there if her bladder was floating.

She was murdered! She knew too much about the Kennedy Assassination.

Here she admits that when she says New York City, she means Manhattan.

I can't seem to find any pictures/articles about John Daly post-WML. He all but disappeared after he left the show.

People sure appeared older mid-century. He was born in 1914 and when I watch the YouTube clips from the late 1950-early 1960s he always looked to me like he was in his mid-50s when in reality he was only in his 40s.

John Daly became The Voice of America.

His second and much younger wife was the daughter of Earl Warren.

On the 1975 WML? retrospective show with John Daly, Arlene Francis and Mark Goodson, Daly had definitely aged since the show's demise in 1967.

R163, is that 1975 show on YouTube? If so, can you provide a link. Thanks.

Here it is . . .

He looks like Mister Rogers there.

[quote] She says "It comes in supermarkets. I wouldn't know anything about supermarkets."

Was she talking about chins?

Dorothy had the courage of her convictions. She wasn't afraid to slam Sinatra in print for his asshole actions at a time when most people in the media sucked up to him. Sinatra was accustomed to fawning and forgiving press. Dorothy knew he was a thug whose ties to the criminal underworld would have made it impossible for decent people to know him socially, were he anyone but Sinatra. Thus did she pull rank on him, and he could only fume and wish her dead. He must have been giddy with glee when they rubbed her out.

The master criminals who own/control the Fed, the Bank of England and the ECB are the ones who ordered the murders of JFK and Dorothy.

If you watch enough of the WML? shows where a major star was the Mystery Guest, many more kissed Dorothy on the way out than Arlene.

Back then, even more than today, it was wise for a celebrity to be kind to those who wrote a daily column.

[quote]She says "It comes in supermarkets.

Is this person who comes in supermarkets in the legitimate theatre? Is it Leonard Bernstein?

I've NEVER come in a supermarket, darling, but thanks for the idea!

Supermarkets are where I buy all my weirdos.

Thanks R165. Kind of weird that in the entire look back NOBODY mentioned their late colleagues Dorothy Kilgallen or Bennett Cerf.

The show was 98% focused on the celebrity mystery guests with hardly a mention of the interesting and often funny real people.

That WML? retrospective originally aired on ABC at 11:30 PM, not even the dignity of a prime time slot.

"Women were called "girls" or "ladies" until the feminist movement of the late '60s "

TODAY we use the correct - not politically correct - correct term. Adult female = woman. Child = girl.

Watching a WML rerun tonight. The mystery guest was Terry Moore and Dorothy clearly was irritated with her kittenish ways.

Dorothy: Well, have you worked on the stage?

Terry: Yes.

Dorothy: In New York?

Terry: No.

Dorothy: Well, then you haven't worked on the stage.

Whadda cunt!

Here's a rare appearance by Dorothy as a panelist on To Tell The Truth in 1962, where host Bud Collyer had to reprimand her about her line of questioning.

One of my favorite WHAT’S MY LINE? segments, Dickie & Jill Kollmar, Dorothy Kilgallen's children (1954)

[quote]many more kissed Dorothy on the way out than Arlene.

That's because Dorothy was a known slut and a wanton whore. She gave "parties" which would now be labeled "pnp" on gay websites.

[quote]Dorothy: Well, then you haven't worked on the stage.

Didn't this line backfire on Dorothy once? I think I read here that she made the same statement to an actress who was a stage star in London's West End, held by millions to be the epicenter of Theater in the English-speaking world.

Dorothy is a real twerp in that To Tell the Truth episode at R178. She's constantly trying to show how erudite she is compared to everyone else. This backfires when she accuses the real opera star Teresa Stratas of not pronouncing Don Hoe-Zay the "correct way" in Spanish. But the opera is written in French and it's up to the indignant diva to point out that she most certainly pronounces Don Joe-Zay's name in its proper French.

Dorothy is so piss elegant, she doesn't even realize she made a ribald pun when she asks if the test driver has ever "raced abroad." Johnny Carson sitting next to her can't contain himself.

D Kilgallen is a very odd character, with many good and not so good qualities. One of her best is that she competed in a man's world (newspapering) and succeeded, and also that she took on the all but unassailable Sinatra--a truly disgusting human being, whatever you think of his talent--despite everyone's warning her that she would lose more than he would.

But she had the flaw that many writers have of thinking a good story (or even a good line) was worth it, even if it might cause someone pain. Some here may recall how she ripped up a musical before it opened--I think it was Skyscraper, the Julie Harris show--which really wasn't fair.

But in all, she probably was one of the most interesting and fearless women of her time. Why doesn't someone do a movie on her?

[quote]But in all, she probably was one of the most interesting and fearless women of her time. Why doesn't someone do a movie on her?

We have chins now.

There will never be a true movie about her because the same master criminals who ordered her murder also control all media, including Hollywood.

Can we please F&F the Stormfront troll who sounds like a broken record?

bump

Whoa - the perfect Christmas gift or Dataloungers - a new book about the life and death of DOROTHY KILGALEN!!!!!!!!!

It got quite the splashy article in today's New York Post too.

What in the name of hell does "quince-faced" mean? I love it but I don't understand it, and google is no help.

That's a good way to put it r182. Or put another way...on the one hand, she had integrity. On the other hand, she was totally humorless.

She's well before my time, but when they started rerunning these shows on the original game show channel, I remembered that name because my grandmother would mention her every now and then - namely because she couldn't stand her.

She was also extremely anti-Communist, no?

"When country music performers from Nashville's Grand Ole Opry appeared in concert at Carnegie Hall to benefit New York's Musicians Aid Society in 1961, Kilgallen dismissed them as "hicks from the sticks". In her column she advised that "everyone should leave town. The hillbillies are coming". Patsy Cline, one of the headliners, responded that "Miss Dorothy called us Nashville performers 'the gang from Grand Ole Opry - hicks from the sticks.' And if I have the pleasure of seeing that wicked witch, I'll let her know how proud I am to be a hick from the sticks."

"She was also extremely anti-Communist, no?"

Communism was the USA's boogey-man in the 1950's-60's. Now, we have a president -elect who's chummy with a Russian dictator & married to a woman who was born & raised in a communist country

R188, quinces have a sour, puckery taste. Dorothy was a sore loser whose resting bitchface betrayed her sourball personality.

I never liked her, tolerated her, but not liked her.

BUZZR Cable runs WML, TTTT and IGAS, seven-days-a-week.

New bio about her.

R194 BUZZR is not a cable channel.

I spent over an hour watching youtube clips of What's My Line, the celebrity portions last night - what a blast - Paul Anka was on the show as a guest - he was small but cute back in the day. The Cardinal Sheen episode was fabulous and SO FUNNY - when Dorothy kisses his ring at the end I almost fell out of my chair.

[quote]One of her best is that she competed in a man's world (newspapering) and succeeded

So what? I did it and so did Louella Parsons

I just listened to a recent podcast interview with Dick Cavett. He said that DK was caught putting pinholes in her blindfold so that she could see the mystery guests.

51 years later, the Manhattan DA is once again reinvestigating her death.

She actually asked some hillbilly guy "Do you peregrinate"?

What a stuck up bitch. Only John Daly and her knew what that was.

No wonder she was murdered and it was covered up.

Of course Dorothy was a snob. As a cultured woman of elegance and refinement, she felt it her duty to uphold standards that set her apart from the riffraff. Unfortunately she also had the quite common gift of being an utter bitch.

Dorothy was also ten times the journalist Hedda and Louella were.

I'm so sick of this bitch...

They had a lady bartender and you know what Dorothy says "A lady bartender??? Unbelieveable"

But what exactly did Kitty Carlisle and Arlene Francis DO? Were they actresses or just society hostesses?

Miss Francis did a few films and hosted radio programs in New York.

Miss Carlisle did a few films (most notable A Night at the Opera), did some legitimate theater, and a few operas.

[quote] The Cardinal Sheen episode was fabulous and SO FUNNY - when Dorothy kisses his ring at the end I almost fell out of my chair.

Common for all practicing Catholics of the time. The Kennedys were big ring kissers.

Miss Carlisle married well.

Miss Carlisle married gay.

Same thing, R210.

Can we talk about Betsy Palmer and Bess Myerson?

Aside from Miss Myerson being our second greatest Miss America and Ed Koch's #1 beard, spill some tea.

Well, I for one ADORED both Bess and Betsy.

Bess because I'm Jewish and she had class and was smart and gorgeous and seemed to be everything a young Jewish woman could be if she strived for success. I can't tell you how disappointing her downfall in the 1980s was. I still find her stupidity in the whole mess unfathomable and unforgivable.

But Betsy was so cute and fun! I eventually worked with her in the early 1980s and she was a doll.

As a kid I loved watching I've Got a Secret, mostly for those 2 ladies. Sadly, as I see it now on youtube, it's practically unwatchable. What's My Line?, OTOH, is still eminently wonderful. I don't think I appreciated Arlene and Dorothy as a kid, but I do now.

Betsy Palmer had a lovely, unique speaking voice.

Miss Carlisle also managed to get pregnant by that famous gay husband.

twice

I gave them credit for keeping Palmer on through her advanced pregnancy. I did feel for her though. There was Bess on the end in her sleek strapless numbers and Betsy in her dowdy voluminous maternity tops that had some sort of bow or accent on it to (vainly) give it some pizzazz.

Dorothy Kilgallen was never in the legitimate theatre.

She wasn't attractive but it still didn't hurt to look at her. That's because women of her time, even the ugly ones, were so meticulously put together they could still be pleasant to look at.

[R213] Maybe it was a typo, but you almost sound like Trump speaking of Frederick Douglass as if he were in his offices just down the street on Pennsylvania Ave. Kilgallen (or as one of her biggest enemies, Frank Sinatra, called her- "the chinless wonder") has been dead for decades. She was very, very conservative which called for chilly, but courteous relations with her fellow panelists, Bennet Cerf and Arlene Francis, two very progressive/liberal New Yorkers.

At least she never was a member of the illegitimate theater!

In Nicky Haslam's autobiography "Redeeming Features" he writes about escorting Joan Crawford to the premiere of Cleopatra (63-64?) and that Dorothy arrived to sit with Crawford at her table at the party afterwards. Dorothy was drunk and practically with her head on the table. Crawford excused it with an airy "Dorothy is very tired." He also wrote that Crawford and Dorothy were "supposed to be having an affair".

May we assume, then R222, that you deal in services?

Dorothy's murder was ordered by the same people who won the recent French election, a couple of generations on

To address those who, way back up in the thread who said that Ed Becker wasn't pretty enough to be a chorus boy. Up through the 1960s, and occasionally beyond, big Broadway shows always had two choruses, a singing chorus and a dancing chorus. You weren't expected to be able to do both, although of course it was great if you could. The cast list in Playbill would usually list the principals and speaking cast by name, then Singers:, followed by their names, then Dancers: followed by their names.

Jerome Robins was probably the first director/choreographer to insist that his entire cast be triple threats (actor/singer/dancer) and I think West Side Story. with a perhaps a handful of exceptions, was the major musical not to separately list singers and .dancers.

Ed Becker was a singer. He wasn't expected to be as hot as a dancer but he was cute.

Yes, with today's modern men's grooming techniques and a few days a week at the gym, Ed Becker would be a total hottie today. A touch fitfat, perhaps, but that's the way I like them.

Are you a chanteuse? In other words are you primarily known for your singing?

It's always fun to watch Arlene and especially Dorothy frantically primp at their hair and false eyelashes as they remove their masks after the Mystery Guest is revealed.

The opening introductions were always interesting, watching both ladies swoop onto the stage and into their seats. Arlene often brought a small evening bag (I'm assuming it was for her ciggies) and Dorothy usually wore little white gloves (so ladylike!).

Being a latch key kid, I watched TV all summer starting when I was 8 with my 7 years sister I was babysitting. I remember one show where Johnny Olsen would say, "Today, you could win this full length mink coat!" While he's saying this, the camera pans up to the top of the stairs in the audience. At the top of the stairs was Bess Myerson, back to the audience, holding that coat out as far as it would go. Then she would turn, and pull the collar up and look seductively into the camera. Bess retained her stunning beauty well into middle age. Then things went horribly awry. I'm sure Bess and Dorothy were friends.

John may we have a small conference?

She asked this hillbilly guy from Georgia if he peregrinates. Fuck her high handed snobbery.

I remember one episode where a rather...ahem...stocky Irish woman was the contestant, and Mr. Daly gave the panel a free guess as to her occupation, and Miss Francis threw out "She works at a slenderizing parlor!"

That seemed exceptionally bitchy for her. I can imagine Dot saying it.

Fatness was a big un-pc joke on TV back then. Comedians like Jackie Gleason, Stubby Kaye, Totie Fields and Jack E Leonard made careers out of it and their weight was often referenced in their material.

[quote]Fatness was a big un-pc joke on TV back then. Comedians like Jackie Gleason, Stubby Kaye, Totie Fields and Jack E Leonard made careers out of it and their weight was often referenced in their material.

Yeah, and if Fred Allen had been the one to say it, I wouldn't have been surprised. It was just weird hearing it from Arlene.

Are you using that clacker because you're voice would be instantly recognizable?

Imagine if Dorothy K. had lived to see Oh! Calcutta! in the legitimate theater. Her head would've exploded into more bits than's JFK's.

Lets everybody say it together....1...2...3... LUCILLE BALL!

How are you darling?

OK today she says to the very, very pretty lady who happens to be a gold miner..."Why I would think you would be more suited to a gold digger," what a petty snark.

Then get, this...they have a dog catcher, and she doesn't know what one is...she says "OK so you round up stray dog? What on Earth do they call it? A truant officer?"

Really? A truant officer? What kind of a high class background do her pets have?

Not a very smart phone, r59, is it?

On the episode today Dorothy says "John, John, you didn't flip the card over, you owe the contestant five dollars, you did that last week too."

No wonder Frank hated her.

You stupid teacunts. Tea was just a beverage for these "gals."

Today I was watching and Dorothy says "I think Bennett has fingered it."

Oh what a bitch outing Bennett like that, except with his gay face and all.

Another day, another episode, another time when Dorothy uses $20 college words on a West Virginia hillbilly, excogitate indeed.

I don't wear one Bennett.

Mystery Guest, did you have dinner with me last night?

She should've grown a beard, instead of being one... May that would give her the appearance of a chin.

OK the lady tests zippers and they were looking for her product and guess what this SNOB says "Is it a slide fastener?"

OK they had a CLOWN on, and Dorothy says "bifurcate" and no one knew what it was.

I am so sick of this social climbing bitch.

Bifurcate: bi·fur·cate: divide into two branches or forks.

She was the paprika in the WML stew. Smart and bitchy. Fun to watch. So much of that showbiz era.

Dorothy on tonight's episode said "are you in my acting class"?

What the fuck did she ever act in?

It certainly wasn't anything in the legitimate theater. I would have remembered that.

Today Dorothy said she was in a "Twist" class. LOL

The old gal never quit trying. There was always something desperate about her.

Marilyn Monroe refused to go to PJ Harvey's in New York saying that "Dorothy Kilgallen is always in there getting bombed"

Sorry R255 here I meant PJ Clarkes

She was definitely one of "The Ladies Who Lunch." Did she take classes in optical art?

I was watching it today and she asked yet another West Virginia hillbilly a question and used the word Parturition. Good grief.

r248

LOL...That is such a fucking thing Dorothy would say.

I was watching her on "To Tell The Truth" as a guest panelist.

Miz Snob asked the real contestant, who was an opera singer, why she pronounced Jose wrong. She said it's Ho-zey. And the opera singer said, "But it's a FRENCH opera, not SPANISH one." The French say "jo-say"

Oh the bitch looked so mad she was called out on it.

r260

Sounds like that bitch

r198

I was there half a decade before them all.

[quote]But what exactly did Kitty Carlisle and Arlene Francis DO?

They supported gay rights. Arlene married a gay man and Kitty was a gay man

[quote]Miss Carlisle also managed to get pregnant by that famous gay husband.

Turkey basters existed in the 1950s

[quote]Of course Dorothy was a snob. As a cultured woman of elegance and refinement, she felt it her duty to uphold standards that set her apart from the riffraff. Unfortunately she also had the quite common gift of being an utter bitch.

That was the difference between someone like Margaret Drysdale, who hated those "dreadful hillbillies" and wanted nothing but total isolation from them and Dorothy who hated "dreadful people" but would think it's her obligation to teach them to be like her.

[quote]"Women were called "girls" or "ladies" until the feminist movement of the late '60s "...TODAY we use the correct - not politically correct - correct term. Adult female = woman. Child = girl.

Ethel: The ad says "girls," we're not girls

Lucy: If you divided everyone into boys and girls we're girls

[quote]Bennet Cerf and Arlene Francis, two very progressive/liberal New Yorkers.

He was only progressive when it suited him. He hated Rock "N" Roll or any music that wasn't to his liking (Dorothy even called him out a few times on it), he would provoke any guest (celebrity or regular) who had a differing political agenda than him (John Daly would cut him off, except one time when some Irish politician gave it to him good). And he thought worms were insects and was plain old stupid.

She stole my cummerbund out of my dressing room once.

r268

Because you and Arlene's husband were using it for immoral purposes

I remember when the old girl was the mystery guest. She was asked if she was known for her singing. She had the nerve to say yes. John certainly corrected her. I guess they should have asked if she was a legitimate chanteuse.

r270

Oh please, she just spent four weeks in the drunk tank, she wasn't even completely sober by then.

This thread is the best thing the DL ever did.

R260, That "opera singer" was Teresa Stratas. BUZZR recently reaired that episode of TTTT.

Dorothy and her gay husband lived quite lavishly.

Today she'd end up being the spokesperson for Aldi.

I was listening to a podcast about the Sam Sheppard case. I knew about Miss Kilgallen and JFK, of course, but I didn't know her first attempt to be more than the author of the popular Voice of Broadway column in the New York Journal-American was going to Ohio to cover the trial.

I wonder how she managed in the fly-overs. She certainly seemed horrified by the way the trial was conducted.

Dorothy's murder was ordered by the same usury satanists who ordered the murder of JFK

Excellent read that makes a convincing case she was murdered.

Sadly her murderer was on WML the next season. He stumped the panel and walked away $50 richer.

Considering her co-panelist Arlene knocked off two people, I wonder if she was a person of interest?

I cannot believe the IGNORANCE and shitty attitudes revealed in this thread. If you want to find out about Dorothy Kilgallen, who was an interesting person, read Lee Israel's biography. (Lee Israel was a fascinating scoundrel; Melissa McCarthy will soon be playing her in a movie.)

Dorothy and her husband had the only job I've ever really wanted: hosts of a radio program called "Mornings With Dick and Dorothy" in which, over coffee, they discussed the premieres and fabulous parties they'd attended the previous night in Manhattan. "Wasn't Dick Rodgers there?"

She was a reporting phenomenon--smart and brave and ambitious.

To all you stupid cunts talking about her chin: Go fuck yourselves.

It wasn't a big deal to say things like that back then. Kilgallen was a well-known NYC writer and sophisticate, and it was part of her "brand"! Plus, believe it or not, MANY people aspired NOT to know the innards of a supermarket back then! We were somewhat more aspirational.

r281, I hope that's true about Melissa McCarthy! Lee used to hang out at the gay bar Julius in the Village. A friend got her to sign her last book to me.

I was never a fan of DK, but if I had enough money to avoid a supermarket for the rest of my life, I would!

The Kollmar/Kilgallen 5 story townhouse at 45 East 68th Street.

I had an older Catholic friend at work who grew up in NYC. He said that during the depression , when everybody else was starving, she'd show up in church in furs and jewelry.

Maybe she could have bought herself a chin at the supermarket.

Their "Mornings with Dick and Dorothy" radio show was parodied in Woody Allen's Radio Days

r287, there it was called "Breakfast with Roger and Irene."

[quote]To all you stupid cunts talking about her chin: Go fuck yourselves.

The woman had a facial deformity. You're calling people cunts for stating the obvious?

[quote]Dorothy Kilgallen was a snob

She was also one of the biggest cheaters on What's My Line. It was so obviously that she "scooped" who'd be on the show beforehand as Mystery Guest. She frequently figured the celeb out in less than two minutes in spite of the guest doing an amazing job disguising his or her voice or throwing the other panelists off track. "Are you considered a leading lady?" "Are you blonde?" "Are you appearing in a show in NY?" "You have a French accent but are you really French?" "Are you [one in a million shot of guessing celebrity so early]?"

Fuck off!

In her defense, though, I agree with the others that she wasn't being snobbish about supermarkets. They were still relatively new back in the day.

I don't know so much about the cheating. First it was in NYC and as TV moved away from NYC it became easier and easier to guess celebrities, because all the panelists would look through the newspapers before the game to see who is in town.

It was also well known the panelists would often go at least one full round before guessing, even if they knew. One time Phil Silvers commented after Arlene guessed him, "I've been here three times before and you always let it go one time around before guessing me." (Bennett, Dorothy and Cesar Romero had taken their turn so it almost went around in full).

Both Bennett and Arlene said Dorothy took the game way too seriously. You can see when the guest panelist went for a funny answer instead of the win, Dorothy wouldn't be happy.

But to be fair, Dorothy would look after the contestant. She would correct mistakes and when they had a guest host, and the panel got the "line" before he won anything Dorothy spoke right up and told him "When John's here if we guess before the contestant wins any money, John throws all the cards over."

She just seemed to be very competitive in nature and wanted to win. She would've probably given the contestant $50 out of her own pocket as long as she guessed it right. As a poster upthread said, she was the kind of 'upper class' person who believed it was her duty to find people she considered her inferiors and not ignore them or shun them or humiliate them, but thought it her duty to bring them up to her level and that came off as condescending.

Bennett Cerf was as guilty as any panelist regarding correctly guessing the mystery guest right away. They all knew what Broadway shows had recently opened or were about to open and what movies were opening. He gave extensive interviews on tape before he died in 1970. He slammed Kilgallen's "God awful" newspaper column and accused her of prolonging her questioning so she'd have more time on camera. He once witnessed her crying backstage after a WML? broadcast because she had failed to correctly guess a single contestant's occupation that evening.

[quote]Bennett Cerf was as guilty as any panelist regarding correctly guessing the mystery guest right away. They all knew what Broadway shows had recently opened or were about to open and what movies were opening.

That's not what I meant earlier (about guessing someone based on which movies or shows were opening). There were instances where she hadn't even named a specific movie or show yet before guessing the person. I can't remember a specific example but if I get around to watching Buzzr TV, I'll try to find an example of what I mean and post it.

The Melissa McCarthy biopic of Lee Israel is called “Can You Ever Forgive Me?” It’s been finished for a while and is supposed to be released in October. The trailer is on YouTube.

[quote]Their "Mornings with Dick and Dorothy" radio show was parodied in Woody Allen's Radio Days

We preferred "Breakfast With Ricky and Lucy."

It wasn't as if Dorothy Kilgallen "came up the hard way" because her father, James Kilgallen, was a longtime newspaper reporter. So that was sort of an "in" for her. I wonder whatever happened to all the material she had compiled on the assassination of John Kennedy because it went missing after she was murdered never to be found. Although it has been said the Mafia killed JFK as well as Dorothy, there is also speculation that the government did both of the murders. She never should have told anyone how much she knew until she was able to publish it, we might know more conclusively about Kennedy's assassination today as a result. I always sort of liked her on What's My Line.

The unwashed masses liked snobs in those days. The Thin Man, mid-Atlantic accents and all that. It was a different time. Rapidly changing.

Her widower, Richard Kollmar, was said to have burned all files Dorothy had regarding the JFK assassination. After her death, he married the woman who ironically designed the dress Dorothy wore on her final WML? appearance, hours before she died. Kollmar eventually committed suicide.

Variety and other news sources also printed the travel plans of celebs that week. I remember a sidebar that said LA to NY and NY to LA, chronicling who was flying where. It was a much smaller universe than.

^then.

The $50 that contestants won in the mid 1950s would be equivalent to $500 dollars today, so it was actually an appreciable amount. In the early 1950s, when the show premiered, it would have been closer to $700.

[quote]… would be equivalent to $500 dollars today

Oh, dear.

You are quite correct, r302, and I am off to explore Thai caves during monsoon season as my penance.

No one likes the grammar or spelling troll R302.

R298=CIA or moron

$50 was chump change in an era of the $64,000 question and other games shows, even Groucho, which was barely a game show and more a showcase for Groucho's remarks.

And John Daly would pretend to call a conference if he felt the panel was too close to guessing it, in an attempt to throw them off.

Considering how long this show was on, I don't think the number of guesses that looked like cheating is off. Sometimes people get lucky.

What surprises me is how the panel fails when the voice of the celebrity seems obvious to me.

[quote]No one likes the grammar or spelling troll

r304 I love the grammar or spelling troll[bold]s[/bold]. Plural.

And, R37, I bet you do your own shopping.

There were a few times when Dorothy would ask the Mystery Guest if he was with her in a helicopter (or was it some other kind of a plane) and she lost her address book (or some other accessory). It never was that celebrity but we never found out to whom she was referring.

Anyone?

Btw, this is the best DL thread ever.

That was Dorothy's version of humblebragging. Just to let everyone know she traveled by helicopter with celebrities to luxe destinations. She was shameless.

R309, It was Anthony Perkins.

A&P had super markets in NYC. there were other supermarkt chains with stores in Manhattan: Grand Union, Key Food (still around), Sloan's, Bohacks, etc.

I mean, can you even imagine Dorothy stopping off at Gristedes on her way home from her desk at The Journal American to buy that night's dinner for Dick and the 3 kids?

Is there any woman working in popular media today who even comes close to inspiring that weird blend of love/hate/respect/ revulsion that Dorothy maintained for 30 years in the public eye?

Oprah?

Dottie was a hoot on WML. That's enough.

R314, Until fairly recently, Barbara Walters.

I was watching it today and Dorothy just came back from Cuba and they had the roulette dealer on as a guest. Dorothy had lost $20 to him in Havana. She didn't recognize him and the panel didn't guess his occupation either.

Dorothy then says, "Well naturally I wouldn't want to remember losing $20," and the guy speaks up and said, "I was sitting behind you on the plane to New York.

That pretty much confirms her snobbery.

Another book from Mark Shaw on Kilgallen. This one is much juicier than his previous book, lots of dish on her personal life.

She was a devoted city girl. Supermarkets were a *suburban* creation. Did she look liked she lived in Darien? Really, you silly children who have no comprehension of any time except the present.

Marilyn Monroe had some extremely unflattering things to say about her...calling her one of those micks (Irish) you always see at some bar getting bombed..........probably an accurate discription

The Smithsonian has her missing chin in a big jar.

Np R19 supermarkets were huge in Kilgallen's time. The A&P chain was America's backbone, Gristedes in NYC took care of the Kilgallen-money crowd. Hell, there even was a supermarket on Christopher Street down in the Village.

Kilgallen did drink. She took various pills for the reasons people did then. One night she drank too much. At home her various pills taken at bedtime, mixed with her alcohol intake did her in. No suicide, no mystery, nobody did her in, an overdose of a deadly combination of alcohol and barbiturates led to her heart attack The IGNORANCE and shitty attitudes revealed in this thread shows DL should be read for silliness, nothing else.

And the proof of your certitude, r323?

R323, How can you ignore the overwhelming evidence that foul play was involved in her death?

r325, I can't. I've said before that the older man I worked with went ton the Catholic Church with her. During the Depression she would show up in furs and jewelry while everyone else was starving.

This site has links to numerous videos featuring Kilgallen and some who knew her.

The Person to Person she and her husband did with Ed Murrow in 1956 is featured.

After her death, husband Richard Kollmar sold the townhouse to Roy Cohn.