Open relationships

That is complete bullshit. Whether or not you agree with open relationships, the idea that is something only ugly people pursue is completely wrong. Nothing in my life experience suggests such a thing.

Open relationships or Polyamorus relationships = Narcissistic individuals with no sense of proper boundaries + sex addiction and no idea what intimacy really is. Basically, they are like drug addicts who need that "fix" of sex or that feeling of falling in love over and over again because the minute they are faced with the day to day life in a committed relationship, they decide they "need more love" in their life. They are usually a mix of good looking people who are with average or ugly people. They have very few close "friends' because they sexualize all their relationships. It is almost always one partner who wants the open part more and the other partner goes along with It because they lack self esteem and are terrified of being alone.

Been there, done that. Never again.

Beautiful people don't negotiate open relationships, beautiful people cheat and are forgiven!

Seriously, every open relationship I've known in real life has involved one thoughtless jerk who wants everything their own way, and a doormat who'll do anything to hold onto them.

Agreed r3.

To each there own but Open relationships just sound pointless, you're just fuck buddies that are really fond of each other.

I remember reading about a study that found only 8% of people in open relationships last long term (I believe in thst case long term was defined as relationships that lasted for 10 years or more). I don't honestly have a problem with it in theory but a 92% "failure" rate tells me that open relationships are not something I'd ever want to get involved with. I think r3 is right.

These threads always bring out the most bitter of bitter Dataloungers. The perpetually single (due to personality defects), the scorned lovers (projecting their experiences onto everyone else) and the duplicitous "monogamists" (who are almost all guilty of cheating.)

Me? Happily married to a great guy who also doesn't care about monogamy. Been together since the last century. We love each other and our life. We are definitely not "just roommates that fuck," but keep telling yourself that if it makes you happy. Or slightly less miserable. I'll be on the sidelines munching popcorn while you flame away.

Of course you are't just "roommates that fuck." You're just roommates.

Is open relationship/marriage mostly referred to having a sexual relation with the same sex?

Hey, R7, my husband and I have been together 20 years. Never cheated!

While I don't believe that monogamy is sustainable for most, I can't say i'm at a point in my life where I would accept an open relationship either.

I will say that I have more respect for the upfront than those who go behind your back, if not just because they are risking your health.

I'd rather be in an open relationship than cheat, or be cheated on. Considering how common cheating it, those who look down on open relationships are likely either hypocrites or dupes.

People want to be both virgins and whores. Devoted husbands and slutty man-whores.

I can't judge, I only know about this kind of relationship through other people. I guess many of them just don't want to be alone, because when I asked why not simply live by yourselves and screw around, they answered "well, you like to have someone to go to the cinema, or shopping, am I right?" Others admit they suffer a little when they know, but they love their partner so they try to stand the situation. Also it's interesting how some would rather be cheated than be in a open relationship. "If you don't know if you're being cheated, it's all right. With a open relationship I would have to know." To each his own, I guess. Sorry my english.

[quote] Seriously, every open relationship I've known in real life has involved one thoughtless jerk who wants everything their own way, and a doormat who'll do anything to hold onto them.

I don't know if that describes EVERY open relationship, but i sure described my last one (I was the doormat). I finally got up the nerve to leave.

In fairness, both of us fooled around. What ended it for me was he had a full-time boyfriend on the side. When I found out about it, he didn't deny it, so I left right then and there. Best thing I ever did.

R14 I understand that sentiment. Sometimes ignorance is bliss (BTW: your English is fine. Better than many on DL)

r3 is a wise owl. That's also what people mean when they say they are "working on" their marriage or relationship. Fuck outta here with that. One or both of you cheated like hell, and 9 times out of 10 you won't look at each other the same way ever gain.

Thank you, R7.

What's toxic and sad are people spending so much emotional energy demonizing those of us in open relationships.

I'm married. My husband was a former model. (There goes the theory about this being something only ugly people do...) We both have professional graduate degrees and have worked all over the world. (No outright needy dependency.) Neither of us is a doormat, professionally or emotionally. We met more than four years ago and will be married for two of those as of next month.

Early on we talked about it and realized that we are on the same page re: sexual monogamy. We are emotionally monogamous, and we both must play safely when we opt to do so. For open relationships to work, both people MUST be on the same page in this regard. Anything less will result in failure. So this aspect alone makes it rare.

We have a happy marriage. Sex is only one component of an lasting, durable relationship. And as time goes by, one that matters far less than trust, honesty, communication and thoughtfulness. I applaud those gay couples who are monogamous, but it's not right for us and never will be.

Amazingly, those who have been most judgmental about us are closet cases in heterosexual marriages, unhappy singles who've never been in a lasting relationship, and men who are cheating on their husbands or wives. Their misery wants company, but it can't have mine. I love my life and my husband. Don't have time for bitterness!

So yes, it IS possible. Not for everyone though. But nothing in life is.

"but it's not right for us and never will be."

So we will have the good fortune of having you two queens trolling gym saunas and gay bath houses for another 20-40 years?

Aren't we fortunate.

Sometimes being gay just seems to complicated and I want to just quit.

It's not for me or my partner. But my best friend and his partner are in an open relationship and have been together now for over a decade. They have STRICT rules about outside sex. Honesty and safety being the key rules, among others.

What's funny, is that neither hardly ever "plays". But knowing they can works for them. They're totally a couple - not just roommates. So of course OR can work. And of course they're are generalities (see R3) as to why they don't often work.

I guess I think if a couple can't make an open relationship work, chances are they wouldn't have made a monogamous relationship work either.

[quote] Sometimes being gay just seems to complicated and I want to just quit.

Don't blame it on homosexuality: heterosexuals make up excuses to justify cheating, too. And just because other people do something you're not comfortable with doesn't mean you have to.

R17, if you works for you and your husband then that's good. I wonder what your relationship would be like if you hadn't gone into it with the knowledge that both of you would be having sex with other people. You say that you have trust, honesty, communication and thoughtfulness. But, you're sharing your body with someone else. Is it just a quickie and you don't share any emotion with the others you have sex with? Either of you? Ever? Are you correlating your attractiveness, education and international employment to a greater enlightenment than the average gay Joe?

Open relationships just seem skeezy, cheap, and low class to me. They also go against my general experience with human nature and relationships.

[quote]Is open relationship/marriage mostly referred to having a sexual relation with the same sex?

It is for when the man goes up into the man, but also for the ladies rubbing lady bits together, and also too the man and lady who only like each other's bits and not the same sex bits.

So no, "open relationship" is not "mostly referred to having sexual relation with the same sex.". It is a neutral term; "open" means the opposite of closed or exclusive, and relationship, in this sense, means an intimate and committed pairing of two partners. Straight people have open marriages, "arrangements," or say they "swing" (or are "swingers") or "wife swap." There are also lesbians who practice similar arrangements, although they seem more rare. In many long term relationships there are complications to regular sex between the partners, such a long-distance relationships, medical/physical problems or just an uneven sex drive. In cases like that, one partner might willingly encourage the other to seek their own gratification outside of the marriage. These arrangement are found across the sexual spectrum. Despite what you may have heard, gay men are not the only ones with open relationships.

Many marriages, gay or straight, are also de facto open, meaning that the participants might not have explicitly stated their permission, but both treat their affairs or infidelities as an open secret, as in "don't ask, don't tell." And then there are the many that just cheat on each other, as well as the hapless fools who believe their partner is monogamous when they are not.

No relationship model is perfect, or works for everyone, or works all the time. To each his own.

I've been in a relationship for nine years. Monogamous by choice. I would not like to hurt his feelings. What I don't get is the venom this post stirred up. I really don't care what anyone else does.

This is entirely subjective, and certainly does not apply to all people, but of the four gay male couples in open relationships I am involved with personally (i.e. friends with one or both of the partners), all of them broke up within 1-2 years of one partner deciding to exercise his "options."

In theory my husband and I are "open", but in practise we just never get around to it and we're happy with one another. I've told him if he wants to have sex with someone else, he's welcome, but just needs to tell me about it first. We've had a couple of satisfying threesomes in the last few years. We've been together about 10. Judge away!

[bold]Man is only faithful until his next option comes along[/bold]

Humans were never meant to pair up. As other posters have mentioned, that's one of the major control aspects of organized society (whether or not religion-based is open to interpretation). To foster this social control element, artificial concepts such as "soulmate", "the one", "my one and only", etc. have been perpetuated in literature, media and social custom forever.

Those who psychologically invest in this artificial concept often end up smiling on the outside, somewhat doubtful on the inside, but resign themselves to chundering on, since they have bought the package, as it were.

Then there are those who psychologically invest, realize early on that what they bought is not nirvana but a nightmare, not what they signed on for, not the happiness they were popularly promised, and walk away. Many have already quietly invested in yet another "soulmate", to ease walking away. Many make multiple investments, until age and the realization that "soulmate" is a crock relegates them to making do with their current "soulmate". The saddest are those who know that their investment was a poor one, yet remain so inculcated with "you must pair up" social control that they have neither the resources nor the wherewithal to move on, remaining in unhappy situations of increasing bitterness and disillusionment.

Then there are those who realize from the git go that the whole "soulmate" riff is but an artificial social control, that one's lifetime of needs cannot be satisfied by one person, that one is not a swan biologically wired to mate for life, but a human being with unlimited, varied and dynamic tastes and interests. That despite social criticism, censure and ostracism, despite constant media inundation to the contrary, they simply cannot invest in a construct that they know instinctively is simply wrong for the human organism. It is they I had hoped the gay community would perpetuate, but very sadly, the community has opted for the far easier route of het socio-religious assimilation.

It just sounds like more trouble than it's worth.

The problem of open relationships is that it offers more freedom than the vast majority of people can wisely handle. And too much freedom leads to ennui and lack of meaning, not just sexually but in other aspects of life.

The funny thing about all the rude posters on this thread who claim that their man never cheated on them and bashing people in open relationships is that their relationship was probably "Open" at one point and they just had no clue.

I've never been in an open relationship but humans are obviously mostly non-monogamous, whats wrong with someone who would rather be upfront about their sexual patterns than fake a monogamous relationship?

I could never be with someone who viewed others outside of the relationship as just warm holes to stick it into. Male or female, if you can have sex without there being emotion involved, there is something fundamentally broken in you. And if you say there is attraction and or the other person is just so totally into you, then there is something broken about you if you can so casually engage with someone who might have feelings for you. Either way, if you're doing it without emotion then you just want the high of an orgasm and it is entirely self involved. You might as well just jerk off to porn if you can use another person like that. Less risk of icky feelings and STDS and that warm hole suddenly becoming a stalker or gasp, wanting something more. If there is emotion involved, then you are fooling yourself by saying what an awesome relationship you already have.

For me, I couldn't be with someone who treated other humans as just a cum bucket to satisfy their own egos. What horrible people.

R32 I'm pretty sure most people have had unattached sex before, I don't think that means they are broken it probably just means you're a stage 5 clinger.

DL is good for many things and enjoyable for many reasons but as a place to come for relationship advice, well, not so much. Plus, in general, the threads like this "this is my experience so I'm going to make sweeping generalizations based on my experience" aren't part of DL's strengths either.

No r33 I don't even get the concept of having sex with someone I don't know well or am not attracted to. It isn't worth the risk and i would never expose myself or my partner to such risks. But then again, I respect myself, my partner, and others enough to know that my 30 second orgasms aren't so hard to come by that I must go feed my ego by luring some skanky stranger to suck my dick.

I cannot have sex without being emotionally involved on some level. Giving my body to another man is a huge responsibility, especially when you don't know who he's been with before and he may lie to you just to get what he wants. But there's always the hope that you may find yourselves compatible on a deeper level.

If you care enough about a man to give up all other men to be with him, and he feels the same way, then it's love.

My last open relationship was fine, until it wasn't.

For all of you proclaiming that there are no happy, well-adjusted people in open relationships because you've never observed it, isn't it also possible that you have, just without anyone being out about it because of vitriol like this?

r38 are you in a successful open relationship?

I have a couple of unattractive and very queeny friends who are in an open relationship, 3-Ways only. I couldn't imagine having sex with either of them but apparently they get some nibbles. I think some people like the idea of being the center of attention and will take what they can get.

I like to think so. We have rules that we stick to: Always safe, never at home unless it's both of us, the other half always has the right to veto.

I get that's not something that would work for everyone, and that's fine, but I think finding an exclusive partner that can 100% meet your sexual needs is a rare thing. Some people might think it's better to round up to that, but I don't think I'm wired that way.

Last year I found my partner cheated, so we talked and I shared that I did the same before. We have been together for 8 years. During our conversations about this subject we felt so relieved but we prefered the choice of remaining monogamous.

I know six couples who are open and this is my observation. One person in the partnership is more in love than the other but goes 'along with things' because they love the person and can't/don't want to move on. It just comes across as being emotionally unhealthy because it creates suspicion and jealous even if the partners are open with each other. I often find when I meet them together they go on about how happy they are, but when I see them one on one, the partner who is more in love vents about how much he hates things and just wants to be monogamous.

I would rather know that my partner cheated with someone he cared for and was attracted to than just "Hey I got some dude to plow my asshole last night."

And every single poly person I've met or people in open relationships go on and on about how happy they are....which is a huge indicator that they are not. Happy people don't have to proclaim it all the time. They just are. And yes, there is ALWAYS one partner who is just going along with it because they are too much of a pussy to leave.

R41, what are your "sexual needs" that your partner is unable to meet? Does he not like blowing you? Is he a top and you're top? Most healthy partners share what they need and want from a relationship and, as a couple they make sure to make sure to do those things. Or is your need, "I need to know that other men want to fuck me because I'm a special snowflake who needs constant validation that I'm just a hole?"

Here's my story. I'm in my late 40s and I have issues with being sexually monogamous, I just don't like it. Now, I've tried a monogamous LTR and I failed at it. I've tried being in an open relationship and it didn't work because there is just too much suspicion. People who are in an open relationship are people who want the security have someone to fall back on but none of the responsibility. It's really an insurance policy that when you're old and no one wants to fuck with you anymore at least you'll have someone there to share living costs.

I come to the realization that I much prefer just dating where there is no real commitment involved.

Some of you are overthinking things. How about the possibility that some monogamous relationships have just as many challenges as open ones. Relationships work until they don't. That's hard enough for most people to deal with.

I have known many couples in open relationships where they are in love with their partners and loving relationships are often much nicer than no relationship, especially for people who do better in relationships than not in them. An open relationship isn't necessarily the so destructive or pathetic or sad. Even an open relationship with challenges.

In contrast, I must say, 7 years single after a lifetime of relationships, most of them open, and now in my early 50's - I avoid being the guy who fucks guys in open relationships. If more guys in their 50's in spent relationships would break up, there would be more single guys on the market for me. However, I know quite a few guys in spent relationships who are just going to stick with them, just like my hetero parents did. It was spent, but they stuck to it rather than divorcing in their 50's and going alone, or making a new one.

Whatever, really.

Why all the binaries? Open bad. Monogamous good. blah de be blah blah blah.

the ones who i know are in an open marriage/relationships are in hetero marriage who are having sexual relations with the same sex.

R43, I was talking exactly about those cases. The only problem I have with poly is when they aren't honest with the other people they're screwing. I was reading a board about open relationships/poly-amorous and a straight female admitted she had two boyfriends at the same time without one knowing about the other. When she was said she was being unfair because her boyfriends may had real feelings towards her and it could be hurtful to them, she replied "Oh yeah, it hurts? But do you think one likes to be rejected just because we are polyamorous?"

I am always amazed by the vicious negativity towards open relationships here. They're not that uncommon among longterm gay couples in my experience, so the vitriol here is a bit strange to encounter.

I am a gay man in an open relationship of 15 years. We've been "officially" open for 13, although we discussed it early in our relationship and were relieved that neither of us placed much value on strict monogamy.

Here's how it works (for us): we are honest, first and foremost. We love each other and want to be together as husbands for life. However, we both realize that we like sexual diversity sometimes, so we have an arrangement. We can't have sex with mutual friends and we can't "date" other people (go on social outings). We are expected to be discreet about our adventures, but we sometimes compare notes or ask questions. Jealousy has never been an issue.

We are allowed fuck buddies, but it can't develop past casual friendliness and NSA sex (no "crushes", "bromances," strong emotional feelings or romance). That last part has never been an issue since we are very much in love with each other and only seek random sexual play outside of our relationship.

That's it. There are other rules regarding safety and certain sex acts we only do with one another, but it's all pretty logical and not that complicated. The number one rule is always "if either objects, we stop all outside affairs and regroup." We have both said we'd become monogamous instantly if the other asked. Neither of us has ever considered that option.

Trust and honesty are paramount. Mutual respect is key. Our love for one another is more important than anything. This might seem strange or impossible to you, but it works well for us, and we actually prefer it.

R51, what if one of you fall in love with someone else? It can happen.

In other words, r51, you and your partner like to use other men as human dildos because you value others so little. Of COURSE you can't have meaningful sex because that would mean you would have to take a good, hard look at your roommate. Of COURSE you find men that are equally vapid and are just seeking to feel that 30 second orgasm. Of COURSE no one will ever get hurt. OF COURSE it works for you because you clearly don't care if anyone, including your living dildos get hurt. You are a narcissist who believes your value lies in how many holes you fuck and how many fuck you. Good for you. Glad I don't know you and your partner.

I've noticed that straight or het guy with bi girl poly couples tend to be very sanctimonious and predatory. They are always lecturing other people on how much more evolved they are. Most of them are constantly on the prowl, always touching, flirting, topping off the wine, inviting you to the hot tub. They do this with people who've told them they aren't interested. They also tend to talk about themselves a lot. They complain about being discriminated against, but they are just plain tedious.

Swingers are easier to deal with than polys. Swingers go to their parties and network with each other. They don't evangelize like the polys.

I think R53 is a woman. An angry judgemental woman.

[quote]what if one of you fall in love with someone else? It can happen.

And yet it never has, R52. Never even came close. We could also be 100% monogamous and still fall in love with another person. I know I can't convince you of this but we really do love each other and don't want to be with anyone else as a couple. We are very comfortable together and we love each other very much.

As for you, R53, I am sorry for whoever hurt you. Having casual sex is not the same thing as being "a human dildo;" it's just a way of having sex that doesn't include emotional involvements or commitments.

I actually do care about the men I have sex with, and I am always 100% open and honest with them, too. I believe in the golden rule, possess enormous empathy (almost to fault) and have never knowingly "used" or hurt anyone, at least not that I'm aware of. No one that I have had sex with has ever accused me of hurting them or treating them as "human dildos". Everyone of them knew what the parameters of our interactions were and they participated knowingly and willingly. I never deceive anyone.

I actually have a particular fondness for my fellow gay men, who I think aren't supported enough within our own community, and I try to counteract the negativity that we heap on each other with acceptance of differences, affirmation of worth, and affection. I'm not sure why you lashed out at me but your characterization of me at R53 is quite incorrect.

Again, I know this isn't for everyone, but try to understand that there are different ways of loving someone and monogamy isn't always the best fit. Having a different model of sexual relationships doesn't make me an amoral psychopath. If you think it does, some self-examination might be in order. You might want to consider what the true source of your anger is, and work on that area within yourself.

Some people have watched WAY too many Disney princess movies.

Good god, R53 is unhinged. Block that loon and half of the thread disappears.

"I actually do care about the men I have sex with, and I am always 100% open and honest with them, too."

What a sanctimonious load of bullshit.

I don't fuck around with guys in relationships, open or otherwise. Way, way too much drama and unresolved conflicts. And I'm in no mood to play the role of sexual therapist for a sexually frustrated frau queen.

I don't think it matters if your relationship is monogamous or open; it's just a matter of time before you stop being primarily attracted to the person you're with and start wanting to be with someone else.

[quote]I would rather know that my partner cheated with someone he cared for and was attracted to than just "Hey I got some dude to plow my asshole last night."

Really r44? I guess you would have more peace of mind knowing that your partner wouldn't cheat simply because he found some guy physically attractive. But on the flip side of that, your partner would be more likely to have deep resentment for you or vice versa, causing major problems in the relationship.

[quote][R41], what are your "sexual needs" that your partner is unable to meet? Does he not like blowing you? Is he a top and you're top? Most healthy partners share what they need and want from a relationship and, as a couple they make sure to make sure to do those things. Or is your need, "I need to know that other men want to fuck me because I'm a special snowflake who needs constant validation that I'm just a hole?"

We both have kinks that the other doesn't. So, we can either put them on the shelf and end up with resentment (expressed or not) and frustration and end up cheating anyway, or be honest about it.

I'm not going to pretend it's all sunshine and roses, and I know this might sound completely alien to people who aren't wired the same way, but it actually makes our relationship stronger. The last time I had a permission slip, the first I wanted to do when I got home was jump my partner, because I was so happy I'd gotten to go play.

As for the question about falling in love with someone else, people in monogamous relationships can do that too.

If you're in an open relationship, it's because you're either a sex addict, or your partner doesn't satisfy you sexually, or you're no longer physically attracted to your partner. That's the bottom line.

If you're in a monogamous relationship, you're either going to cheat, get cheated on, or else you're just settling for the only other person who would ever want to be with you. That's the bottom line.

False equivalence is false, R64.

[quote]I get that's not something that would work for everyone

Some people don't believe monogamy works for anyone so they refuse to try it. This is how the self-fulfilling prophecy works: cheaters keep saying "men cheat" and appealing to nature to justify it. Meanwhile, those of us who can be faithful and are faithful are the ones who get hurt.

You do realize that participants in open relationships aren't "cheating?"

R65 You wouldn't get hurt if you opened your eyes and realized that men cheat.

Resentment only happens when someone cannot get their way. Grow up and realize that not every feeling needs to be expressed or acted upon.

[quote]Grow up and realize that not every feeling needs to be expressed or acted upon.

Not being able to express your feelings is the recipe for resentment. Yes, those in relationships that can't do that need to grow up and realize they need to leave the relationship.

Totally fine to express your feelings and desires. Not fine to have to act on each and every one of those. I recognize that I am not 6 years old and need to throw a hissy fit if I can't have a toy I want. I also recognize that if it's just toys I want, then i'm still a child.

After reading all this I think I'd rather stay at home and watch TV.

Why on Earth would anyone feel resentful when in a relationship? You signed up for a relationship. That means commitment and all that comes along with it. What is the point really if all you're gonna do is cry like a wee child because Daddy won't let you fuck Tom, Dick, and Harry?

I guess the fraus are truly here. Still bitter that their hubby found another pussy because they were so bad in bed.

I think open relationships tend to be uneven with one of the partners more invested than the other and agreeing to open up the relationship because they're afraid to be alone and being left. That's why when someone gets on here to say how wonderful their open relationship is I always wonder if their partner or husband would say the same.

I bet percentage wise they're a lot less hetero open relationships and that's probably because talking things out is emphasized and usually by the woman. It's harder to prop up a bad relationship when someone is digging up all the things you resent. But in an open relationship you can avoid all kinds of issues and deny all kinds of problems in your relationship by simply going out and having sex with someone else. Why discuss the fact that you're bored with each other or have grown apart or no longer in love when you can just have a threesome and live in denial.

Right, R73, it has to be fraus posting since we know that no gay man is capable of love, commitment or fidelity. Gays are only capable of satisfying their dick.

Frauville.

R60 nailed it.

The elephant in the room of most relationships is that at some point--whether you are open or not--that "butterflies in your stomach" feeling eventually subsides, and years down the road your sexual attraction stops. Male, female, gay, straight. It happens. It doesn't mean the relationship is over, as relationships are about commitment on a lot of other levels as well. It's about sharing a life. Getting some dick is just a small part of it.

Some people can be monogamous. Many can't. And I'm sick and tired of hearing the open guys call the monogamy guys uptight prudes as well as hearing the monogamy guys call the open guys sluts who cant't commit.

Just find someone you are on the same page with, and stop lecturing others about what makes a relationship work. Affairs and breakups happen in all kinds of relationships. Opening up for some is the solution, and for others its downfall.

Stop trying to impose your own personal feelings into others.

Don't you think that open relationships work better if the couple is financially tied to each other? There's less threat with a partner having sex with others if he is so financially tied to the other partner that a breakup would be extremely messy and time consuming.

I think open relationships are becoming the new 'chic' with in the gay community. Most of my friends who are are LTR tend to have open relationships. The interesting thing is with an exception of a couple of them, most started out as monogamous but after a period of time they 'opened things us.' My observation has been that things are opened up when something in the relationship started to go sour...whether it be decreased sexual attraction, maybe cheating, maybe just bored with each other etc. I had one friend say to me 'I love my partner but I'm just bored with him, we need to mix things up." To me many open relationships (not all) are generally relationships that have ended in the traditional sense but there is still a strong emotional connection and people are afraid to walk away from it.

R74 I agree with you totally about most open relationships being uneven. I see it with my friends, one partner is always more in love with the other.

I think monogamists and non-monogamists might as well be from different planets. As one of the former, I have a completely different worldview than those who prefer open relationships -- and many of those in open relationships deny that people like me even exist. I just think it's incumbent upon all of us to be completely honest with each other about who we are and what we want.

R74 you nailed it!

I know a few couples in open relationships and there is always one person who is more happy about being open than the other. The number of times I've heard 'oh this is just temporary' or 'well we don't sleep with others that often.' Even sometimes one person in the couple is actually keeping their options open if they meet someone they feel they're more compatible with.

[quote] Giving my body to another man is a huge responsibility

Maaaary!

(I can't believe this is the first one of the thread...)

[quote] I think open relationships are becoming the new 'chic' with in the gay community.

Fuck you, r79. All this does is show a stunning lack of knowledge of actual gay history.

Next time there's an epidemic of an untreatable STD among gay men, don't say I didn't warn you.

R84 Don't say we didn't warn you either, while you are living in a happy delusion of a "monogamous" relationship and you're man is out sexing someone diseased unprotected and brings it home to you.

You can either pretend like this doesn't exist or you and your partner can acknowledge it and move forward with precautions.

Just a fancy term for the shame of sluthood.

Wow, slow clap for Defacto? Thank you for resurrecting this five-year-old thread for no apparent reason than to be a lame betch.

It actually bumped this for the purpose of pushing other threads down the board, r87. Lots of that going on right now -- panic about Trump's COVID? Or just bored with all the threads about it?

Defacto/2015 thread bumper is a pitiful creature with small deformed genitals. It is best to ignore their passive aggressive attempts at acting out.

R88 man, Trump’s COVID... that seems like 10 years ago.

Many people are coerced into an open relationship by a controlling partner, specially in straight open relationships. That's when it doesn't work.

I've engaged into open and monogamous relationships. I personally don't believe monogamy is natural, then again many social norms aren't, my point being that during my open relationships I rarely if ever slept around, same can be said about my boyfriend. We were very open and I think it's kind of hot that people are free to explore sexuality, no one can give everything to everyone. I do know people in open relationships that are truly in love with each other and just treat sex as a natural side of life.

I would never do it. I don’t get being so slutty that you can’t either stay monogamous or get a case by case hall pass. What is the point of even dating then?

Monogamy doesn't work, especially since people are living longer.

Plenty of open relationships last decades, get over it.

r22 = female

You know the gambling term "the bank always wins"? Marriage is a set up by society to make us feel like total losers when we can't make our relationships work. People who feel like losers are easy prey and can be controlled more easily.

We were never intended to have soulmates who stay with us forever just like it was never intended to wear the same clothes from when we were young until we die of old age. We fully accept that we have to let go of material things at some point, but for some reason a couple which developed different interests they want to pursue on their own ... oooooh! Trouble in paradise! They must sacrifice whatever they plan on doing to make this commitment work. They simply must be on the same page and let go of foolish things like their individuality that may push them to go in a different direction.

Honesty, sometimes brutal honesty, is really the best thing to have in a relationship. Better be honest and part as friends than spend years and years in a failed relationship that requires hard work and sacrifice to keep the couple in one room to squabble and fight about some trivial issue.

r32 is SUCH a female!

A female named MARY.

You do you, hunty. What works for you doesn't work for everyone else. And if you're like over 60% of women, you're going to wish you could have an extramarital affair once married. You might even negotiate a "Hall Pass."

The gambling term is "the House always wins."

r97, thanks.

Closed relationships are fine and people should be okay with others wanting closed relationships. There's that whole, "MONOGOMY DOESN'T WORK!" group who don't always seem to understand that just because someone doesn't want an open relationship that doesn't mean they are defective.

Open relationships are fine and people should be okay with people being in open relationships even if it isn't for them. And again there's that whole, "OPEN RELATIONSHIPS DON'T WORK!" group who don't seem to understand that they can work just maybe not for them.

The bigger problem is people not minding their own business and letting people do what they want.

Open relationships have one caveat as said in R17,

[quote]For open relationships to work, both people MUST be on the same page in this regard.

That will screw up an open relationship every single time. If not at first then eventually. I've seen open relationships work for years until one person oversteps and then there's trouble. Honesty is always the best policy. I'd also add I've seen them blow up when only one party wants to be open and the other doesn't or reluctantly goes along with it.

But again, they can work, if both parties are open and honest.

If you really study the history of sexuality, more precisely Foucault's, there's plenty of historical evidence to back up the complete phoniness of monogamy. If I remember correctly, monogamy is a fairly novel concept, I think from the XVIII century on. It was pretty much accepted that married couples would have affairs and casual sex with prostitutes and by it I mean men, but you get the idea.

Monogamy is social engineering to control the masses, it makes no sense in nature as far as social mammals are concerned.

R100: Is researching that how he discovered the pendulum?

Foucault is interesting, but he didn't really study the history of sexuality. He was a social theorist not a historian specialising in the history of every society. He came up with interesting social theories and then rummaged around in the past to find evidence he believed backed his ideas up. He was certainly not really capable of understanding the material he found in its context.

This isn't to say he was completely wrong or had nothing to contribute, just that it's best to be careful when saying things like "as Foucault said about ancient Greece or the 18th century".

[quote]If you really study the history of sexuality, more precisely Foucault's, there's plenty of historical evidence to back up the complete phoniness of monogamy.

And if you really study biology instead of French Philosophy there are a few (but not many) animals who practice monogamy and I'm absolutely sure they don't give a shit about human heterosexual norms. There are some that are all in. There are some who are all in until a mate dies and they move on. There are some who are fine with it but they will cheat. There are many who fuck who they want. They run the gamut just like humans and they don't know anything about our culture.

Threads like this make me think I'd be better off just staying home and jerking to porn.

For those considering opening up their relationship, a note of caution. My relationship, while wonderful on many levels, had come to a halt sexually. This went on for several years. During this time, my partner who was a bottle of gin a day alcoholic, stopped drinking. He lost a lot of weight and started taking exercise. He looked great, and his confidence was obviously increased. I didn’t pressure him because I didn’t want to endanger his recovery. He was at AA meetings most nights, and I fully supported this. Finally I confronted him because I was miserable. I told him that if there was not going to be any change, we should consider an open relationship. He seemed relieved and positive about this, assuring me that he loved me and just wanted us to stay together. I joined a couple of hookup sites. On one of them I found him, and saw that he had already been seeing dozens of men for over two years. The site encouraged men to leave “reviews”, and I learned that he was having group sex and barebacking. I was very upset and told him what I had discovered. He reacted with a list of complaints about me, and told me I had agreed to this, that no gay relationship is monogamous, and that I was overreacting. We tried counselling, which was a waste of time. The counsellor was well versed in platitudes and therapy speak which had no practical application. We are still together. I simply cannot afford to start again on my own at my age. I have given up on meeting anybody because I learned too late that it isn’t who I am. He has continued to see people and we don’t discuss it. On the surface we appear to have a successful, very long relationship, and family and friends have no idea. I feel trapped.

[quote] Foucault is interesting, but he didn't really study the history of sexuality. He was a social theorist not a historian specialising in the history of every society. He came up with interesting social theories and then rummaged around in the past to find evidence he believed backed his ideas up. He was certainly not really capable of understanding the material he found in its context.

I agree with this assessment, but it's still a fascinating 4 volume study on that, and he didn't make up the sources so you can infer a lot of things regardless of his personal bias, which all historians have.

I couldn't do it. I am too jealous and insecure and territorial and would feel betrayed every time. I would also be concerned about my health, and always worried that he'd find someone more compatible while hooking up and decide to leave or (maybe worse) try to bring them into the relationship or start a spinoff relationship. Nope.

I have seen enough evidence that there are some people who just accept that they are horny and are cool with being romantic roommates while being total sluts at the same time. And that's fine for them but not for me. It's a very different way of being.

R105 so sorry to read your story. My heart breaks for you. How terribly lonely you must feel.

You said you don’t want to hear platitudes, and I don’t blame you. Nonetheless, reading your sad tale brought to mind the old saying, “better to be alone that in bad company”. Trite and easy to say, I know, but for me and many others I’ve known it holds.

R10 That is what you think and what you want to think. I have cheated with more people in relationships than not.

Go fuck yourself, you self-righteous cunt @ r53.

What works for you doesn't work for everyone and there's no reason in the world for you to disrespect a good thing some other couple has going.

You sound insufferable, bitter, female and SINGLE.

You're also an idiot to conflate monogamy with the only kind of sex that can be "meaningful." That's absolutely false. 10 different people can mean 10 great things! It's not a slight to the primary partner and they don't detract from each other.

If you absolutely require everybody to be monogamous, including your partner, then YOU'RE the selfish one. It's not true that casual sex or secondary partners are loveless. It's not true that you can only love someone if they're absolutely monogamous to you — though that's a very common female arousal pattern and fantasy for WOMEN in human sexuality studies.

You're the only one reducing lovers to "roommates" and secondary partners as just "holes" and "dildos." You have to go to extremes and absolutes in order to disparage something you don't want to do. You judge and misrepresent what you don't understand.

Most open partners or "promiscuous" people don't see each other that way. But even if they did, it can be fun and harmless sometimes, provided they have a primary partner to fulfill their love needs.

For the time being, you absolutely deserve to be treated like a hole or dildo by everyone because you're such a self-righteous cunt.

False absolutism @ r63.

Life is not so simple or black and white. Would you like to eat meatloaf for dinner, every night for the rest of your life?

Or would you rather have variety? Maybe chicken one night. Maybe even go crazy and have steak at a fine restaurant once in a while!

Some people just need variety.

[quote]no gay relationship is monogamous

Not if that's what both partners want and agree to.

R18 made me actually lol. I cackled. Thank you for that. To have r17 yapping about his former model husband and all their professional degrees and their perfect open relationship and then r18 creates the visual of them as creepy old queens trolling a bath house.... The best.

So R110 anyone who desires a monogamous relationship is " bitter, female, and single" well I prefer monogamy and my (rather popular) cock ;-) would seem to counter your second assumption and I'm far from bitter so your first is invalid as well.

Those who are in open relationships - what type of sex do you usually have outside the marriage? Do you stay the night or is it usually quick?

Honestly... it sounds like a dream to me. Long term relationships and marriage seem to become more about the emotional commitment as years pass (if you’re lucky). If you can both continue to have sex outside the relationship but come home to each other - that seems ideal.

And I’m a single female. No judgment here. Would love to find that situation. Not convinced it’s realistic (because of those describing the dynamic of one person being more in love and hanging on), but dare to dream.....

Personally, I don't want to be in an open relationship. Yes, I'm single!

Dear r74,

FYI, most relationships contain "one partner more invested than the other." In fact, some happy couples are happy to have a more submissive or powerful partner and they both consciously choose those roles. AND THEY'RE FUCKING HAPPY FOR LIFE AND EVEN MONOGAMOUS!

It's especially true among heterosexual couples. Equality is largely a myth we tell ourselves to keep the peace, sweetie.

There are a lot FEWER hetero open relationships because most women don't want that and refuse it. Women have a greater need for security and long-term commitment because of their biology and social condition. They're more vulnerable. They're physically weaker, they have different hormones, they're stuck with children, incapacitated by pregnancy and society places certain roles or expectations on them. And biology fuels this fantasy they commonly have of ever-extraordinary devotion from ONE partner. Furthermore, women are not as HORNY as men and don't want sex in general as much as men.

So women simply don't want open relationships as much as men and that's fine — so long as you find a partner who is happy with monogamy. There are plenty available.

What's not okay is to diss what works happily for people unlike yourself. Humankind will never be exactly like yourself or want the same things.

And again, you have to slander open relationships and project "denial" upon them in order to comfort yourself and your choices.

Extramarital sex is NOT "avoidance" or even "boredom" with the primary partner. You choose a primary partner because you have the same interests, values, economic security and decision for long-term commitment. Your husband could love everything about you because you're beautiful, loyal, rich, into the same music and politics and you ride his dick cowgirl style.

But you won't suck dick. Or you won't suck dick very well and that's one of his favorite things.

So he has a whore or mistress who can deep-throat like a champ. That's not a FAULT of either of you, it's just a need or strong desire he has to get from somewhere else most of the time. As a woman who doesn't want sex as much as him, you should be happy that someone else can relieve you of duty once in a while.

Not to mention the physical handicaps that some people have, as a previous poster did, where one partner has to get sex or a sex act elsewhere.

You're a very small-minded person to think you have to get EVERYTHING from one person.

r84, because nobody knows how to have safe sex.

Why am I not surprised Defacto is here to crucify everyone for not being ultra-conservative enough?

An old dudes ramblings: been with my partner for 47 years. Neither of us had/have any desire to get gay married or have a commitment ceremony. We’ve had three ways, open relations, it’s run the gamut. The point being we’re still together. Hasn’t always been a joy, but following a point made by a friend of mine years ago, if you’re satisfied at least 50% of the time why ditch the relationship. When my partner and I used to go to the sex clubs (either together or alone), some of our sanctimonious friends used to call us no better than dogs in heat. One couple in particular, who way before gay marriage was legal, had a commitment ceremony in a gay church which I attended. They were the epitome of good Christian gays. Well, about one year after this blissful union, the more pious of the two screwed around behind his husband’s back and became HIV positive. Didn’t tell his partner , who in turn became HIV positive. The pious partner died rather quickly, which left the surviving one to fend for himself. I’m not making a value judgment, but those who talk a good game of fidelity are doing just that, ‘talking’ a good game. If something works for a couple, leave your opinions about their relationship in the closet.

Okay, r99.

But monogamy doesn't work for most people, it's not suited to human nature and most monogamists become bored and disillusioned.

As a matter of fact, r100, monogamy was a Christian invention, a trend and then a law that took effect once the Christians gained lasting control of the Roman Empire. That's the 5th century A.D. in Europe and the Middle East.

Prior to that, most cultures legally and socially tolerated promiscuity for the men and whores. Even the ancient Hebrews had the double standard — respectable women were supposed to remain chaste but the husbands could fuck around. King Solomon had 1,000 wives and concubines. Samson, Joshua and Joshua's spies take prostitutes unabashedly in the Bible.

It wasn't until the Christians, with their New Testament and Mark Chapter 10, Verse 9, that the world began to "reform" and consider extra-marital affairs legal adultery for men as well. Adultery had always meant that wives must be monogamous but men must simply not trespass against another male citizen's wifely or daughterly "property" before.

[quote]7. For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and cleave to his wife; 8. And they twain shall be one flesh: so then they are no more twain, but one flesh. 9. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.

So, after converting to Christianity and making it the official state religion, Romans passed adultery reform laws which punished men for extramarital affairs, too. Muslims retained the Christian traditions and forbade "fornication" to the half of the world they conquered rather than Christians

So here we are, with unnatural and extreme, religion-mandated notions of monogamy that don't fit human nature and the first civilizations didn't expect.

r102 writes like Boris, a Catholic-brainwashed conservative who lives on DL to crucify anyone not sufficiently Christian, straight, pro-Trump or pro-Republican for him.

R10- that you know of. My ex replaced me with a younger model and they have been together for a long time now. But I see my replacement of Scruff all the time. I didn’t rat him out though because frankly they deserve each other!

No thanks.

Look, you wouldn't get this but better people raise the bar higher

[quote] Male or female, if you can have sex without there being emotion involved, there is something fundamentally broken in you.

Horseshit. Please take your bourgeois conformity somewhere else.

It's really interesting to see gay men who are doing things that have been proscribed for centuries being moralistic and judgmental regarding the sex lives of others.

Do get over yourselves. It wasn't so long ago that you were an outlaw.

R117 your pronouncements about women are so sexist and stupid. Marriage and monogamy is ALL a social construct - heterosexual or not. You lecturing about women being physically weaker and having “different hormones” and all being pregnant and stuck with children as some sort of biologically-based reasoning for why straight people aren’t in open relationships - fuck off. Heterosexuals aren’t in open relationships because they are operating under the same patriarchal scheme that’s been running the world for all of history. That scheme traps women and has nothing but disgust for gay men. Leave your faux science arguments out of it. Monogamy is bullshit across the board.

Wrong r129. Now that we've devalued marriage and made women work and run society, society is unraveling. Society can't function without venerating monogamous heterosexual marriage and keeping the sexes separate as much as possible, with men making the important decisions instead of hormonal, overemotional women.

.,.,

R130 Dejeure you're a real weirdo you know that?

Is Defacturd a woman? Seriously.

R132

R133 I’m a gay total bottom.

What's more "toxic and sad" is staring into the details of other people's relationships and looking for something to judge.

This is a flaming Bump Bitch trolling tire fire of a thread. DeFacto (now D-Facto) and DeJure (doesn't matter since they're the same tired old maid) in the same thread? Continually re-bumped since its inception 7 years ago to avoid the closing of threads inactive for over a year? Concern trolling gays, as usual? It's like winning some sort of shit lottery. Better get out before my shoes get flooded!

Thanks r137 nobody figured that out until you pointed it out.

Bump