The Sad Plight of the Masculine Gay Boy

I feel like there's too much pressure to conform to either one end of the extreme or the other.

OP, you sound totally butch!

[quote]all gay me are femme

and all straight me are stupid!

OP how old are you? You have created an elaborate social and emotional scenario for this group of men but it seems to be a fantasy serving your needs. I am 53 and played varsity sports in HS and some competitive sports in college. Came out when scary AIDS was the news of the day. Didn't tardy past Sophomore years. There were other guys like me, too. Your scenario is a load of crap. There are plenty of masculine gay men and plenty of the m had no special difficulty coming out. Its 2015 for crissakes. If some masculine guys isn't coming out, I doubt its about his masculinity but probably a range of shit that could be shared by all sorts of pre-out guys. I think you fetishise masculine gay men and have created, whats more, some cockamamie sad (macho) puppy identity for them. I think you are sort of pathetic.

People think that just because you're sporty and butch, life is easy and fun. No-one understood, you had feelings too.

You may have been lucky R4. Given that you are 53, how did your straight friends/teammates react when you came out? Were you still friends with them or did you find a bunch of gay guys to befriend?

Come on R4, there has been plenty written about the fact that the less obvious gay guys often don't come out until they are in their mid-late 20s. I get that taking the leap you did back in the 80s was huge, but why so intolerant?

Nothing "masculine" about your post OP. That whole thing was nothing but a long, annoying whine from a weak-minded sister.

R8, that "sister" comment is a great example of why they hate us. Quit putting other men down by calling them girls. It's misogynistic.

I know gay people like the OP. Know one of them very well. It's hard to fit in with a lot of homosexuals when you're a dudebro.

OP, do you live in or near a large city? Move to one if you haven't already. You mentioned the Red Sox. NYC isn't far away, there are plenty of sports loving brahs here. Come on down.

By the way, are you hung?

This thread is making me horny!

I was on an Ivy League campus so a bit progressive for the era but come it was already the 80s!!!! Nobody gave two shits about my sexual orientation and bisexuality was then ash remains a bit trendy on elite campuses. I got discrete offers from guys who were questioning themselves, too, and wanted to experiment!

You have created an elaborate scenario that has little to do with reality.

People don't come out because of family pressure, cultural pressures, religious cultures. regional/class prejudices, personal psychologies. Any young gay guy who is masculine and relatively hot, who has a brain, figures out the world is his oyster as soon as he comes out.

was then and remains

Seriously R8/R11 - are you really that clueless? "I was on an Ivy League campus" "Bisexuality remains a bit trendy"-- yeah, at Brown and/or Yale for sure. But try that at Kansas State or even Duke and I suspect you'd have had a very very very different college experience. Try going down another level too. Allegheny County Community College. How accepted would you have been there.

It seems like you can't imagine a world outside your Ivy League bubble.. So your comments are of little value here.

Thank you R9- you get it.

I suspect R11 would not come off as a "dudebro" outside of his Ivy League campus. In the valley of the blind, the one-eyed man is king and all that.

You are only proving my point this is about location and not "masculinity". I pretty much stand by my observation. I think a gay baseball player can come out at Kansas State and his teammates will unite to support him even if a few are privately conflicted about homosexuals, they know the party line these days.

Dudebros identify one another by the use of the extremely butch term "dudebro"!

From the OP, emphasis added "IT'S NOT THAT THEY FEAR THEIR FRIENDS WILL ABANDON THEM, it's that they fear they'll be left in a world where there is no one like them, where every other gay man is a Lady Gaga loving femme who speaks in gay voice and makes bitchy comments about other people's shoes."

See the fear is not that the baseball teammates will turn their back, it's that there aren't any other guys like them out there. Do you dispute that for someone less sophisticated than your Ivy League self, it's easy to get the impression that all gays are Gaga-loving femmes.

FWIW, I am not the hypothetical guy, though I was him when I was in high school and college. Came out at 23, found out I was not the only one, but it did take some time. I just see so much anger at guys who don't want to toe the party line on here...

and so much condescension from overprivileged, live-in-a-bubble types like Joe Ivy League

And why not try to get to know the "femme" (your word) gay men on campus. They tend to be very accepting of others (well, unless they are theatre majors and then just watch out) and welcome a variety of ways of being gay. I mean, it's not the case that if you don't call them all "Mary," they will shun you like an Amish lad back from Rumspringa with a Prince Albert. You might even find some fun, loyal guys who respect your interests and will make better cheeerleaders at halftime than any of the empty-headed sorority girls who usually hang around.

I think there's a bit of internalized homophobia and not-so-subtle misogyny at work in your posting.

I think R19 has reading comprehension issues

"It's not that they fear their friends will abandon them, it's that they fear they'll be left in a world where there is no one like them, where every other gay man is a Lady Gaga loving femme who speaks in gay voice and makes bitchy comments about other people's shoes. All these guys want is a guy who'll fit in with their group of friends but who wants to sleep with them instead of the drunk sorority girls their friends are hitting on. And they don't see that ever happening so they stay in the closet and have random hookups with other "discreet" guys off Grindr."

I'm the ivy league blowhard.

But the OPs statement above is filled with prejudice and stereotype about gays. Again, gays come in all varieties and its a very weak argument to say a jock stays in the closet because he thinks most gay guys are lisping prancing diva worshipping stereotypes. You even have this scenario where this hypothetical closet jock is hooking up on the downlow with grindr. Where every 3rd guy is copping some masculine, jocky identity. So hypothetical man knows full well there are plenty of masculine gays out there.

So where is your elaborate scenario coming from? From you, not from reality.

I find the post so dramatic XD

I don't consider myself either masculine or feminine. Apparently I am more on my masculine side because I don't make display of effeminate mannerisms as you usually see in some gay guys. I don't walk around with my bakc expanded and with the alpha male attitude either. Porbably just a regular guy is what I am. I don't listen to diva pop music but alternative rock, and stuff like that.

I don't understand the dramatic tone of the thread. Masculine gay guys are highly desired by both masculine gay guys and feminine gay guys. Oh, yeah, they are also desired by gay guys like me who are not in any ends of the rope.

Ivy League education but still can't read

"Many of them eventually come to realize that there are plenty of other gay men like themselves, that they are not the only ones who don't speak in gay voice or care how the Red Sox did last night. But a lot don't and even if they do, it often doesn't happen until they're in their mid-20s "

Seems a common enough scenario - late teens, early 20s are tough for guys like that until they realize they're not alone. Post seems to have hit a nerve with ILB though. Wonder why.

ILB is a bossy bottom who won't have any of it

OP, you're still sucking cock and that's a very un-bro thing to do.

To cut a long story short: get over yourself.

For being "masculine," OP sure is a whiney little bitch, much like every other queen that spouts garbage like OP's post.

OP and his ilk wouldn't know masculine if it bludgeoned them over the head with a baseball bat.

Why do effeminate and stereotypical gay guys institute masculine and mainstream dudes by calling them feminine names or attacking their manhood? They reinforce the notion that male effeminacy is so horrible that it is the ultimate insult.

institute = insult?

Most masculine same-sex oriented dudes don't identify as "gay." They tend to identify as bisexual, bicurious, or straight. A lot of them just view themselves as "open." They usually associate "gay" with "them", not themselves.

Not even close to true, R29.

Dudebros on a gay gossip site, and one of the most feminine sites on the web.

R11 I would think that someone who was smart enough to have been on an Ivy League campus would know the difference between discrete and discreet.

Most threads on this site are not gay gossip, bro.

R32 and R33, are you dudebros? Because I am.

R27, R29: your tremendous insecurities about yourselves and your sexuality are so evident it's not even funny, it's pathetic.

R33: you're trying way too hard and the phoniness is cringe worthy.

You mean the threads not behind a picture of Dorothy or Glinda the Good Witch from the Wizard of Oz, R33?

R30, r29 is true. Even recent surveys show that a huge percentage of same-sex involved or attracted people do not view as gay, often constituting many more people than those who identify as gay. Moreover, just common experience in the world should tell you that's true.

R31, dudebros are on here all the time. There really isn't much gossip here. Just a bunch of threads about hot muscular fantasy Brahs.

[R30], [R29] is accurate. Even recent surveys show that a huge percentage of same-sex involved or attracted people do not view themselves as gay, often constituting many more people than those who identify as gay. Moreover, just common experience in the world should tell you that's true.

Lol. Bitch please.

TROLL

IGNORE

We're out of time for this week, OP. That'll be $200 and see you next Thursday at the same time.

OP, what you are describing is pretty much everyone's experience as they come out of the closet, come to terms with who they are, and figure out what kind of life they want to have. You're simply not as special as you think. This is what it means to be gay and out.

I hope you're a troll OP, because you can't expect anyone over 21 to take this seriously.

r42, but how about the many guys who are not out and never will be?

You gotta love the little queenettes in training who come to a gay site, engage in gay sex, go to gay clubs and bars and yet insist they're not gay.

Must be the same ones who insist on the dirtball porn "stars" on Sean Cody and Corbin Fisher are "straight."

r45, Why do you call them "queenettes?" There is no evidence they are effeminate.

Try being a femme les who hangs out with straight sorority girls

It is hard to date a hot guy if you are not masculine. Over half the personals ad say "masculine only."

So date Mr. Available and get over yourself.

[quote]While the perception that all gay me are femme is obviously not true, that's all you see in the media, from the femme couple on Modern Family to any representation of the gay community-- it's all White Parties and drag queens and Madonna.

OP must be a troll because this is COMPLETE BULLSHIT.

From Michael Sam, Matt Bomer, Neil Patrick Harris, Anderson Cooper, Zach Quinto, John Barrowman and even older guys like Ian Mckellen and George Takei. Most of the "faces" of gay guys in pop culture are not femme types.

The famous gay characters on TV right now the guys from "How to Get Away with Murder", "Empire", Ian and Mickey on "Shameless"... none of them are femme.

Even a gay show like "Looking" had a cast of gay guys who weren't flamers.

This post is such utter bullshit.

More trolling for the "masculine" side. Same shit, different words. They're being a little more subtle now, but it's the same anti-fem bullshit we see posted here over and over again.

R49, but they ain't hot. You can only date people to which you are attracted. Woe is me....

I just cant relate to these kind of posts because I was always out. From the time I was a small child,there was no doubt in anyones mind I was gayer than an easter bonnet. I never gave much thought to labels,because I just couldn't relate to not being who I was. If your masculine and gay,fine,so what ? Theres a lid for every pot. Why must you seperate yourself or feel "better" than someone else ? What purpose could that possibly serve ? I just don't understand why gay people decided they had to separate into catagories,or feel ashamed to be associated with each other.

In the 80s they cared, even in the Ivy League, especially when AIDS was big news. And much of it was for reasons OP mentions, namely the idea that gays were low status individuals, ghettoized into show tunes and low paid professions. So where did this belief come from? From homophobic culture. The notion that gays are all a bunch of ghetto FABULOUS types is a straight hate stereotype that has only eroded very gradually and still exists in a very robust form in OP's brain. What happens is the sex drive becomes too much to bear and they either become glued to porn, which has many masculine scenarios, or they break down and actually meet some other gays, which explodes their stupid stereotypes. And then they knock their fists against their heads, and say, Fuck, I was stupid. The only ones who don't are people like OP who are STILL too scared of rejection to take that plunge.

These posts make me sad because of the intolerance in so many of the responses.

OP isn't saying that masculine guys are better than femme. He's saying that for guys like that, there's a period where they feel trapped between two worlds and don't see themselves reflected in the gay one. That's because the guys who are like them are not as visible and often not out in their late teens/early 20s (though that is changing.)

Nowhere does he say he looks down on femme guys. Just that he feels he won't fit in with them.

Disagree with you R50-- I think media, especially gay media and DL, still default to the old stereotypes. The guys from Modern Family are far more well known than Shameless and even on Glee, the main gay character was markedly femme. Quinto is definitely going to put a guy like OP at ease, Michael Sam too, the rest of your list I'm not too sure of.

I don't really get why femme guys feel this thread and similar ones are bigoted rants against them or justifications for gay-for-pay porn stars. Try and put yourself in OPs shoes for a minute and understand where he and guys like him are coming from. Even if those shoes are a beat up pair of Nikes.

[quote] OP isn't saying that masculine guys are better than femme.

Yes he is, and so are a lot of other posts in this thread.

Where do you see that R56 - can you show me the verbiage. Because I really don't see it at all

I think gay media and a certain subculture of gay men constantly reinforce gay stereotypes by asserting that certain non-sexual characteristics, mannerisms, interests, and looks are distinctly "gay." That regally alienates bisexual and gay men who don't seem themselves in those archaic stereotypes

I got the distinct impression that the OP is NOT a masculine guy and is creating a psychological profile of the masculine guys he covets and fantasies about.

I agree with you R58 and will go you one further in that many gay men feel the need to adopt or adhere to these archaic stereotypes under the misguided notion that it makes them more authentically gay or that it will help them fit in better with the community.

No his post is stupid R55. We live in a world where guys like John Amaechi, Michael Sam, Gareth Thomas and Keegan Hirst are all openly gay.

There are TONS of non-femme gay guys represented both as real people and as popular characters. There are also some femmes one represented ( because y'know, they exist and are people do).

You and OP have no point to stand on. The idea that in 2015 someone is trying to cry that "according to the world all gay men are flamers" is absurd and demonstrably untrue. God, even one of the most famous moments in the last presidential cycle was this masculine gay marine calling into the Republican debate and getting booed and how everyone insulted the audience.

You guys are just being defensive and showing your own insecurity about feminine gay men. There is a wide spectrum of gay men visible in our modern society.

You're projecting big time R61

All he and I are saying is that for a lot of guys like that (and yes, I was one and now I am out and happy) the world can feel like that. That yes there are some out gay athletes but come to Datalounge, read the local gay pennysaver, and it seems like a very different world, that most gays are still into drag and fashion and circuit parties. HERE'S THE IMPORTANT PART: Then you stop being a naive 19 year old and figure out that's not true. But until you do the world can seem really lonely and you really do feel like you're out there on a limb all alone.

And I think that's all OP was asking for, as evidenced by the last sentence - that DLers cut those guys a little slack. But as the responses on this post indicate, that's not happening anytime soon.

R27 It is due to rejection. You kow, masculine gay guys, just like most gay guys are also attracted to masculinity in a partner. When a feminine gay guy tries to hit on a masculine one the feminine guy gets rejected by the masculine. In response to that rejection some feminine gay guys treat the masculine one with female terms in a derogatory way.

It is like when a guy likes a muscular guy. If you get rejected by the muscular guy you then start calling him a roidhead and stuff like that.

All the brutal ridicule that non-masculine men get from this world, including gay men, as well as the widespread preference for traditionally masculine men as romantic interests, confirms to me that one's masculine/feminine orientation is hard-wired and difficult to change. What man would choose to be effeminate in this society?

Don't masculine guys want to be referred to as men? Why the "boy" OP?

That's not what I see R63. For example, at my gym, feminine men attract masculine men.

Masculinity and femininity are mainly learnt. We learn them from our parents or people we admire (role models). Some homosexual kids don't have positive male role models because of homophobia so some find much better role models in women who are usually more protective of children than men.

I grew up around all men and am flaming. It's not learnt.

It's not learnt for me.

[quote]For example, at my gym, feminine men attract masculine men.

Puh-leeze. No one is saying this never happens, but any gay guy knows the real lay of the land. In general, being manly makes you more sexually attractive to people and being very feminine is a sexual turn-off. Now WHY that is the case and whether it should be is a debate to be had.

But as someone else mentioned you can see the phenomenon play out in gay movies, almost always the love interest is some masculine stud.

I is totally learnt. The acquisition of femininity or masculininty is subconscious.

John Barrowman is pretty femme.

You're probably very feminine aren't you R70.

For you it is R71.

Learnt?

Learnt is a very masculine word. So is, "puh-lease".

Yeah, masculinity and femininity are mainly a learnt process.

In many cases the femininity acquired by some feminine gay guys stems from the fact that both heterosexual women, generally the mother, and gay guys are attracted to men so some gay guys subconsciously imitate their mothers' behaviour to attract men. Heterosexual girls do the same, they subconsciously imitate their mothers' behaviour and that way they learn to interact with the opposite sex.

Hogwash, dude

Learnt

The Sad Plight of the Black Sock Wearing Jock Dude worried that Brojobs from his Masculine but Cool Brahs Makes Him Gay. Oh! La Hu...man...ité....

Someone's dating all those femme guys... they're not celibate

"Femme" is so often in the eyes of the beholder too, at least in the gay community. A while back a guy I know was confessing how he felt embarrassed when he realized that he was often uncomfortable going places with a friend of his, because the friend was so effeminate. And all I could think was "damn, there's someone even more effeminate than you!" Clearly he did not see himself that way.

As for "learnt"-- I think it's both-- there are boys who talk like that pretty much from birth, and others who seem to pick it up after they come out.

[quote] but how about the many guys who are not out and never will be?

What about them? They're going to have to make their own choices. They can't just sit in their closet and expect the entire world to invite them out of it with an engraved invitation. EVERYONE who comes out has to go through a process of determining what it means to be gay and where - or even whether - they fit into the larger gay community.

R42 and other posters with similar thoughts are right. OP seems to think his overly dramatic "sad plight of the masculine gay boy" makes such a person a special snowflake. We all had to come out and deal with out sexuality. It wasn't somehow harder for the people OP describes.

R53 is also spot on about there being a lid for every pot. I've always been saddened by the penchant of many in the gay community to feel the need to separate themselves, or say, "I'm gay, but at least I"m not FILL IN THE BLANK, which usually is a word like femme or flamer. There are two forms of feelings of rejection involved in coming out--first one feels rejected by the majority of society at large, then second when one enters the gay community, there is this constant need to find a pecking order, which is squarely based in insecurity and inability to accept one's sexuality, hence the need to feel better than someone else.

People who truly accept their sexuality don't really care to make these types of separation and are more evolved.

To my dearest OP:

You're the reason MARY! was created you silly goose! Your rant is the reason why we hate us. Being overdramatic and making sweeping generalizations is NOT a good look. You should get out more.

I see the "femme woman who likes same" troll is still around.

I grew up far away in the countryside. My dad was a farmer and very much a guy's guy. Half the time, he raised us kids by himself, because my somewhat butch mother was a sailor. My grandmother was quite butch, and most of the girls in my school were too. All the guys cared about one thing... football (soccer). I stuck out like a tiara on a pile of horse manure! Every word that came out of my mouth, was accompanied by big arm- and hand gestures. Every thought in my head was like taken out of the head of Anne of Green Gables. My best friend was a Tomboy, and she could walk 400 meters on her hands. My nickname was Femmie! From the age of 12, I tried really hard to butch up, but to no avail. Don't come and tell me, that it was LEARNED, that I had picked up my femininity somewhere. There was NOWHERE it could have been picked up.

"it's that they fear they'll be left in a world where there is no one like them, where every other gay man is a Lady Gaga loving femme who speaks in gay voice and makes bitchy comments about other people's shoes. All these guys want is a guy who'll fit in with their group of friends but who wants to sleep with them instead of the drunk sorority girls their friends are hitting on. And they don't see that ever happening so they stay in the closet and have random hookups with other "discreet" guys off Grindr."

And then there is R9 referring to the OP as 'dudebro"... oy.

The OP, and poor old R9 are full of homophobia and apparently do not know it. They also seem to think that the experience of being gay and denigrated is "worse" if you are masculine. What can I say? I suggest you walk a mile in the shoes of a feminine young man, as opposed to only your's. I also suggest that there is nothing better or worse about being masculine than feminine- which the OP's post oozes, as does R9's.

If the OP is afraid to come out among his jock friends he needs to ask himself why. Sure he is perhaps different from them. But imagine how fearful the fem fellow can be of the the OP and his "dudebros".

Suggest you think about this a little harder OP. And get off your butch horse and into the trenches with your gay brothers of all types and grow up- man up in fact- grow some balls- and help all gay men and lesbians. And while you are worrying about your dudebros rejecting you if you are gay, why not make an example of yourself and stand up for all your gay brothers- dudes or Gaga fans.

Such pathetic humble bragging.

With all due respect, Miss, I have my own problems.

It's a bitch being butch!

[quote] But as someone else mentioned you can see the phenomenon play out in gay movies, almost always the love interest is some masculine stud.

And we KNOW movies exactly reflect reality, and never create artificial gender norms for what they assume will be more marketable to consumers!!!

Let me tell you about about sad plights!

Masculine gender expression in highly desired sexually. I don't undertand the dramatic tone of this topic.

Learnt.

Every fembot I've ever known has had the power to turn the swish on and off as easily as one turns a lamp on and off. Never trust the ones who claim is isn't a strategic affectation similar to Andy Kaufman doing that Latka character

Some are simply feminine... period. Quiet types mostly. Those, that can turn it on and off, are those that go "Mm-mmm let ME tell YOU something, girlfriend *fingersnap*. They are just role-playing actresses.

There is a problem when talking about "femmes" because the picture that comes to mind is the extremely effeminate flamboyant guy. Femininity comes in different degrees.

Much like turning off and on your king sized douchebag side, dudebro @ R95?

Every straight frat boy wanna be queen poseur I've ever met can turn it off and on in a flick of their very limp wrists.

What a simpleton you must be R98. Perhaps you should take the advice offered up thread and get out more often. When you do, you will find there are all types of gay men and most (thankfully) are neither a dudebro (whatever the fuck that means) or Frankie grande.

OP did prove one point: never get between a bossy bottom and their delusion of superiority within the gay pecking order!

I do feel sad for teenaged boys whose lives are limited to cars and sports, and the company of dullards who think of nothing but cars and sports.

At least the gay ones have a golden opportunity to discover all sort of fun and interesting stuff through gay culture, it'd be a damn shame if they stayed in the dull heteronormative world, and stayed as dull as their bros.

Yes, it must be said that "femme" encompasses an extremely wide range of characteristics. Personally, I like a guy who's "lightly" femme. A guy like that will look like a guy, well-developed but gracile. His movements will be graceful, and his personality may tend towards shy or extremely extroverted (think PK of PK and Mike - relationship goals). He'll have a distinctive lilt in his voice that reads femme and he will possess a "sweetness" that is never the stereotype of the rude and cunty feminine gay man, but exactly the opposite . Etc.

If he's vapid, constantly up speaking in a Valley-girl voice, sashaying around, and generally being nasty to people, well that's definitely too much.

r100, there you go conflating being gay with being "effeminate" or not being masculine. Ignorant.

gay guys are so divided

r101, you would really appreciate me.

With love, r86 / r96

[quote]Datalounge "gay" man, 58, closeted, dudebro, mental problems, addicted to porn

How can you still be closeted at 58? Doesn't anyone ever ask where your girlfriend is?

[quote] Personally, I like a guy who's "lightly" femme. A guy like that will look like a guy, well-developed but gracile. His movements will be graceful, and his personality may tend towards shy or extremely extroverted (think PK of PK and Mike - relationship goals). He'll have a distinctive lilt in his voice that reads femme and he will possess a "sweetness" that is never the stereotype of the rude and cunty feminine gay man, but exactly the opposite . Etc.

I'm rather going for this kind too these days.

I was always into the butch, 'you;d never guess' gays, almost religiously.

But now I rather like a bit of swish, a bit of gay voice.

I just met a guy. VERY good-looking. Quite short. In fact quite butch looking. But opens his mouth he's gay as a goose and I find him rather intriguing.

I'll be the butch one in this dynamic.

I find all this looking to the media for examples of gay life/ role models so tiresome.

Celebs and tv characters are not good examples of real life at the best of times, yet gays go on and on about needing role models in fucking sitcoms and movies and needing fucking actors to 'come out already'.

Do you never leave your homes?

95% of the so called straight actors out there don't appeal to me...but a walk around London on a sunny afternoon I might see at least a dozen hot guys way hotter than the 'stars' on the fucking TV or in the movies and yes, some of them are gay.

What bullshit, OP. Of course they're worried about losing their friends. That's the number reason why closet cases don't come out-fear of being judged by STRAIGHT people. Fuck off with your, "I don't want to be like [italic] those [/italic] fags" nonsense.

This thread needs to be closed. OP is a troll trying to turn everyone against each other.

Stay off the thread then girly boy, R109.

Some people sees trolls everywhere!

Wherever one falls on the "masculine-feminine" scale, does it really matter so long as you are comfortable in your own skin? People who are truly comfortable with who they are won't look down on those who either don't care how the Red Sox did last night or enjoy Lady Gaga. On the other hand, they will distance themselves from those who heap scorn on those who could care less about how the Red Sox perform or like to criticize people's shoes.

R102, you understand nothing. What I actually said was that "gay culture" has more interesting things to offer than cars and sports, which is undeniably true, and here you projected all sorts of insecurities about masculinity and femininity onto my simple statement.

Think before you speak.

R62

W&W

The OP is afraid of losing his circle of friends. He is afraid "coming out" will taint the relationships. His worries about "typical" gay men isn't unfounded. Too many of the guys I've known that are "gay-gay" are flakes. Facebook photos of partying on Fire Island after filing bankruptcy again. TMI about the new "sugar daddy". People hitting on married friends.

I am in no way a dudebro- I was a geeky comic nerd, but in no way "gay" by way of typical mannerisms. More spaz, less jazz.

Thanks to GOD, I got into martial arts and grew into my gangly looks, but still felt "left out" by my new gay friends. I drifted through social circles in college, and finally decided that my social circle was me and anyone I wanted to hang out with. It made for some awkward parties.

I'm an elder gay (late early 40s) and settled down...and almost all of my friends are straight.

OP- find a man, then find a group of straight couples. You will be happier.

Preach R112!

[quote] Wherever one falls on the "masculine-feminine" scale, does it really matter so long as you are comfortable in your own skin?

Spot on. And, the reality is that *the vast majority* of gay men display both traits in various degrees. The stereotypical extremes are just that: extremes.

Feminine guys loose friends and family too, when they come out of the closet. But they tend to come out sooner, because the closet is almost unbearable to live in for them.

It's interesting, we have quite a few "masculine" gays complaining they are lonely and cannot find a man or a friend. Aren't masculine gay men supposed to be the most coveted? All you guys say here is how much you want a masculine guy and how there are so few tops compared to bottoms. Dudes like OP are supposed to be getting boypussy hand over fist. The only thing that makes masculine guys lonely is the closet. That's one of things you experience while in hiding.

OP's basic thesis is wrong. The fear of living a life among people who have no interest in the Red Sox isn't what keeps men in the closet, the belief that being a Red Sox fan makes a person better than a show tune queen is what keeps people in the closet!

That believe is what needs to be challenged at every personal and public level, because it's hurtful and it's wrong.

[quote]. Aren't masculine gay men supposed to be the most coveted?

Only if they're attractive in a particular way.

There have been articles attacking characters like Ian, Mickey, Will, Sonny and others like them for being to str8 and not acting gay enough. Essentially accusing the characters of being str8 in almost every way except for having sex with some of the same sex.

I wish "str8" would go away. It's weird.

R121 Who are those characters?

What a bunch of sad, damaged fucks so many of you are.

OP's dilemma is pretty classic: he's talking about being afraid that if he comes out, the gay community won't accept him for who he is because he's simply not gay enough for them. And reading through the intolerant responses to this thread, I don't know how you could come to any other conclusion.

Thankfully, real life is different than DL and guys like OP learn that there are all types of gays, not just the judgmental asses who frequent DL

Whoa, dude! Just because I sucked your rod doesn't make me gay! We're all bros here!

I had a friend once who stopped being my friend because I "wasn't gay enough."

How selective R124.

Did you miss the part where he talked about gay voice or liking the Red Sox? What's wrong with gay voice? What's wrong with not liking the Red Sox? How about where he said "all your friends are straight and the idea of coming out is frightening because all gay men are feminine and love Lady Gaga and he just couldn't fit with all those "fags" (implied) who make bitchy comments about shoes which is what every other gay man does.

Did you gloss over that?

If you're going to insult a group of people, then prepare to be insulted back.

R124 But it's a false dilemma. No gay has been rejected by another gay for not being gay enough. OP is a troll, and wasn't even saying what you think he was saying.

It's the straight men/teenaged boys a young gay would have to worry about. It's always them we have to worry about.

R113 Hmm, who knows, but generally what people call "gay culture" looks too cliché and seems to be driven by either liking feminine things or muscles.

Gay culture is what you make it. Hang out with who you want to hang out with, go where you want to go, and just shut the fuck about it "not being for you."

If that's all you get out of gay culture R129, then I feel sorry for you because you're probably a homophobe.

[quote] Seems a common enough scenario - late teens, early 20s are tough for guys like that until they realize they're not alone.

The poor darlings! Must they have to live in such a weird, twilit half-world throughout their college years? I am sobbing for them even as I type!

See I read that very differently than you R127. I read it as him being scared that he'd be out of his league with people who knew about all these things he didn't, who'd want him to be just like them before they'd accept him.

I think you are reading the negative connotations into it, perhaps due to your own insecurity and due to the fact that in the gay community, we tend to view femme men as the lesser.

I also think you glossed over the part where he says that many of them come to realize those stereotypes are not true.

No, I read that part. But, 95% of that post was to insult feminine gay men.

[quote] But, 95% of that post was to insult feminine gay men.

Totally agree.

I have no insecurities, R133. I'm openly gay, everywhere, I make Carson Kressley look like Thor, and...I don't see feminine gay men as "less than".

R128, see R126. Seriously, it happened to me.

r126 r137 I'm feminine, and I've had "bro/dude" friends for years. It's probably the friends I have most fun with. They make fun of my femininity, and I make fun of their masculinity... Of course we also make fun of other stuff. At the moment, they mostly make jokes about me doing yoga (I go to pilates), and I make fun of their disk sizes, since they are all average and I'm not. We don't fuck, that's kind of an unwritten rule. We just hang out, drink beer and go out together. Also to straight places. You can be a bro and be accepted in the gay community and have fem friends. But as with all friends, you just have to choose those that are not dickheads.

I would like OP to man up, and tell us what he actually meant, since there are several definitions of it in this thread.

R131 I'm a homosexual guy. I don't identify with gay culture because it doesn't offer anything interesting to me. As I said it is very cliché: diva pop music, obsession with female singers, interest in fashion, etc or the other side, super muscualr guys liking house music and gym stuff.

I don't oppose gay culture, I think it is OK there are people who like it and feel they belong in it, but you cannot expect every homosexual guy to identify with it because no subculture is founded to appeal to every person, instead, all subculture gather elements that are appealing for certain people, that's why they are called subcultures.

Please, don't conflate not feeling interested in gay culture with homophobia. I don't fear nor hate anybody for liking the same sex because I like the same sex. Gay culture is not homosexuality just like repairing cars is not heterosexuality.

I don't think OP was intending to insult femme men at all, but given that so many femme men spent their childhoods being terrorized by guys who liked cars and baseball, I can understand how someone saying he would be unhappy to have to spend time with guys like that would be interpreted as being an insult.

Which is too bad because when femme guys complain about having to listen to the guys they work with talk about sports, no one considers that an insult.

And R136, I'm openly gay everywhere too, except the back of my knees. For some reason that part remained straight.

Did I read the same post everybody else read? Sure seemed anti-feminine gay male to me.

[quote]As I said it is very cliché: diva pop music, obsession with female singers, interest in fashion, etc or the other side, super muscualr guys liking house music and gym stuff.

Ignorant, homophobic and sad.

You're so fucking stupid, R139. Grow the fuck up. There is no singular, all pervasive gay culture, as you state. If there is one, it's in your homophobic, self-loathing head.

That you seem to think divas, fashions, etc are all that gay culture has to offer shows a very, very limited knowledge and experience of the real world.

The sad plight of f the masculine " play-boy."

R139 is why gay history or LGBT history/civics class should be taught in schools.

R143 So when someone disagrees with you that's all you say to them?

I need to correct you. Homosexuality is the sexual, emotional and romantic attraction to the same sex. I love the same sex so I'm not a homophobe.

Not liking diva pop music is not homophobia because music is not homosexuality and it has nothing to do with it. You are a homophobe when you hate people who like the same sex; not when you don't like diva pop music, Is it clear for you now?

Gay culture, like the gay community, is a generalization that is meaningless. It's like saying female culture or the woman's community. All we share is a sexuality and the vestiges of political discrimination. Otherwise, live and let live. Just try to be a little kinder to one another.

R139 is why the FF and the ignore button exists. He is clearly trolling.

This reminds me of the "Plug it up" scene from "Carrie".

Nearly ev ery gay person has gone through this phase and we exhibit an almost primal response to those going through it.

Fake it. Code switch. Remain true to yourself. There are a variety of coping mechanisms and few established rites of passage.

Just make sure you buy the best shoes you can afford and you'll get through it.

There is a troll in here calling everybody a homophobe.

If someone doesn't like drinking beer does that make him/her a heterophobe? O.o

You all are being very disingenuous by claiming there is no "gay culture"

Of course there is. It's an over the top stereotype that no one actually adheres to, but it's also the prevailing aesthetic at places where large numbers of gay men tend to congregate.

Maybe 10% of gay men have ever been to a circuit party, but there's no alternative to it that draws in such large numbers. So that becomes the prevailing stereotype.

Again, I get why gay men who grew up being terrorized by "jocks"react so negatively when said jocks complain about having to hang out with them. I just wish they'd get past that.

The sad plight is that he's a bottom and needs more cocks!!

How do you feel about Gay Pride R151?

Do you do stand-up R152? You've got a real knack for the sophisticated, witty one-liner!

Is bottoming a plight of the masculine gay "boy"?

It's like Gay St. Patrick's Day, R153. The Irish all go out and get drunk and confirm everyone's worst stereotypes about them, and the gays put guys wearing make-up in gold lame´jock straps on display next to the Dykes on Bykes and confirm everyone's worst stereotypes about us.

There is a misconpection going on that being gay must necessarily mean that you must like or have an interest in gay culture. That's not how things really are. That's like saying that just ebcause you are a heterosexual must then you must like football/soccer just because this sport is associated with heterosexual men. That'a very reductionist view of things.

People with similar interests eventually gather together be it gay culture, goth, punk, hipsters, atc.

Homosexual people are not sheep doing all the same thing. We are individuals and each one has their one interests and preferences. Not liking diva pop music is not homophobia, it only means you like other type of music.

That's all I needed R156. Thanks. :)

R156 Bump.

At the same time, R157, people in any oppressed group tend to demand a higher level of "authtenticity" lest they feel that their peers are selling out and trying to make nice with their oppressors.

I'd bet money that the majority of the men screaming "homophobia" and "OP was insulting femmes" are over 50 and that the guys under 30 (if there are any, other than Program Troll) are more open to OP

[quote] This reminds me of the "Plug it up" scene from "Carrie".

[quote] Nearly ev ery gay person has gone through this phase and we exhibit an almost primal response to those going through it.

Menstruation???

That's a very common problem with some gay guys who assume all gay guys have the same interests so they start searching of a unique homogeneous mentality.

Some like drag shows; some don't, some like Britney Spears; some don't. We can still be friends regardless of our differing tastes and preferences.

The real culprit here is the media. In that world is where the stereotypical gay culture is presented as dominant. Even here on the DL we have to see images of Dorothy, Bette, and mommie dearest hovering over every web link! Inexperienced types such as OP (be they young and/or closeted) run with that until they actually get out there and meet real gay men.

There, they realize those who affect the stereotype are there (and lying when they claim they were born that way), but there are also many other 'types' as well.

This thread proves how most gay men need to work harder at not projecting our own damage as the motivation of strangers and be more accepting of the eclectic collection of gay men that is the rainbow!!

How are people not exhausted from this topic already. This stupid fucking drivel has been obsessed over for 20 years with people arguing their points as if they have some absolute answer to all of gay men everywhere (you don't, blanche, you don't). There are entire message boards devoted to it like "realjock" (please gurl) and "gaybros" on reddit. It's a complicated topic w/ no answer. Just live your life.

The only point I WILL make - because it is a massively obvious issue - is that most gay men prefer masculine types. I SAID MOST. There are exceptions, but if you go on any dating site or app, "masc only" is always there along with "no fems". There's even a study on it published in the #1 psych journal...linked. So, this is why OP is not getting "sympathy".

You're not seeing it from his POV R164. The idea of being pursued by dozens of Carson Kressleys, Jacks and Camerons has zero appeal.

He's also being pursued by all the masculine guys too, R165.

* assuming he's good looking

Something tells me he's not pursued by anyone. Rather, he posts on the m2m section of his local Craigslist.

R158 just wants people to trash his stereotypical view of "gay culture". One person says he doesn't like pride festivals, so obviously they must be terrible. R158 probably hasn't ever been to a pride event of any kind.

Why hasn't he replied in a full day? Was it just a troll / shit stirring post then? Ugh. Cunt.

OP was heavily invested in the beginning and responded repeatedly on the beginning. I think he is being genuine with his expressions. Perhaps he's burnt out at being called a troll because he doesn't think just like the heavily medicated troll trolls.

I was just going to say that R171-- if I had received a similar response I would not come back to this thread. Sounded like he was trying to actually say something positive, that even though it seems like masculine guys have an easy time of it, coming out can be tough because suddenly they feel like the minority vis a vis other gay men.

As you might suspect if you've been here long enough, that message was not well received.

R172 He wasn't saying anything positive. You and r171 are idiots.

R173 = heavily medicated troll troll

I've noticed that the guys responding negatively to this post are given to name calling and other acts of hysteria.

Again, that's because you're an idiot. You are what you are, and what you've "noticed" is bullshit.

Oh I didn't catch that he was responding.

Have you ever met one of these masc types who wasn't actively mean to femme types?

R178 Yeah, there are tons of masculine gay guys who have no problem with feminine gay guys.

We usually forget about the whole spectrum of grey in everything.

R170 He's NOT going to respond. The damage has been done. He successfully trolled the board and moved to live under another bridge.

One of these days, he's gonna get caught up in the most horrific grease fire imaginable.

At least Japanese pop idols have more style than Britney Spears or Lady Gaga.

Yet another boring, mediocre and insipid post from the PMBT.

r77 what about the research by gay scientist Dean Hamer that found gay men had feminine brains similar to straight women, and lesbians had masculine brains similar to straight men?

R183 What was found is that the brain of homosexual men is slightly similar to that of heterosexual women in its hard-wiring associated with sexual stimulus derived from attraction to men. The way our brains behave when seeing something sexually or romantically stimulating about the same sex is similar to the way the brain of a heterosexual woman reacts to the same stimulus.

The brains of homosexual men are still masculine so you should not conflate attraction with gender expression, otherwise you would be transgender and not a homosexual man.

You should also remember that the association of male homosexuality with effeminacy is a rather recent phenomenon originated from homosexual men who loved to dress in drag in cosmopolitan cities. If you look back in time, in ancient times homosexual men were associated with masculinity and depicted performing masculine activities such as battling.

OP isn't masculine. He's a little bitch who whines, then goes to hide in the closet. He hasn't got the guts to come back here and stand up for himself. Why are you guys defending this "masculine" scaredy-cat?

r184 the research found it was exposure to testosterone in the womb that masculinized the brains of straight men and lesbians, while the brains of straight women and gay men remained "unmasculinized". But gay men also have larger penises than straight men, so the thinking is that, if you're gay, more testosterone went to your penis than your brain.

The Ancient Greeks differentiated between feminine homosexuals (kinaidos) and masculine bisexuals. Masculine bisexuals who fucked boys and impregnated women were the male ideal. However, feminine homosexuals were the lowest of the low.

How about effeminate heterosexual men? They exist on large numbers. How about heterosexual me with transvestic fetishism?

Link please R186.

It's fascinating that the OP's fairly run-of-the-mill observation-- more masculine-identified gay teenagers struggle with the idea of being outnumbered by femme guys when they join GayWorld™ -- is causing so much stress and agita among so many DLers. Grease fires and PMBT troll have been invoked.

I had no idea the femme members of GayWorld felt that persecuted.

Still waiting for the link R186.

He's talking about the research by simon levay

I have no idea what he's talking about with the penis size thing...and there's no research supporting that. There was study of self-measured penis size, which is a methodological flaw. Gay men inflated size more than straight men...they weren't "really" bigger.

Now, here you can see his comments about greece: "This active/passive polarization corresponded with dominant and submissive social roles: the active (penetrative) role was associated with masculinity, higher social status, and adulthood, while the passive role was associated with femininity, lower social status, and youth." and go to the citation (6) and read further.

R186 The study was carried out by a swedish team of researches in 2008 I think. There are some brain scans comparing the brains of homosexual and heterosexual people. Our brains are SLIGHTLY similar to that of heterosexual women, I stress on SLIGHTLY. And it is not the whole brain, just a region linked to sexual orientation. I think it is the hypothalamus...

Some expertes knowing that some people would conflate things made it clear that homosexual men have masculine brains; just not reacting to sexual stimulus coming from women.

Ah Wikipedia. Oh good.

Yeah, that's why I said to click the link at "6" so you could read the source...because you seem incapable of googling... I figured wikipedia was on your level.

Nevermind, the citation at 6 goes to the dictionary...wow, wikipedia gets worse every time I look at it.

Well, I am done being your research assistant.

People who make such statements should cite their own bullshit, asshole.

anyone think R196 ever goes anywhere without his bow tie?

People who are too lazy to google something should shut the fuck up, rather than repeatedly posting "link?" and "still waiting for link"

To anyone with an education in psychology or history, those weren't controversial statements that required citations.

I'm not the one with the bow tie. Mrs. R197 demanding citations like a schoolmarm, on the other hand...

Not to mention, it's a fucking gay gossip site. People need citations here? Please. You scoff at wikipedia, but "blind items" and "oh my god!" blogs are reliable sources. yeah, welcome to DL's brain trust.

r193 it is not just the hypothalamus. All brains start off as perfectly symmetrical and female. Testosterone causes the right side of the brain to become larger - that is a masculinized brain. Straight men and lesbians have asymmetrical masculinized brains. Straight women and gay men keep the original feminine symmetrical brain.

R201 I'm a homosexual guy, but I don't have interest in things associated with women. In fact, I'm the laziest person. I hate to go shopping, I really don't care much about looks, just jeans and a nice t-shirt will do for me. I get bored watching soap operas, etc. I have fun with my female friends, especially when there are other guys around, but I usually get bored around women because I don't relate to the way they see things and their interests. Even when we both like men, my way of liking men is not the way women like men. A bit hard to explain in detail, but I guess you kind of get the picture.

I am always looking for bonding with my male friends because even if we have different sexual orientations our ways to see the world seem to have more in common.

Could you explain this to me?

Find a drum circle, Hippie.

It's more complex than a brain scan will reveal. What R201 said is only a part of the picture, and it's debatable about how much the brain will influence behavior - and at what points in development that you'll be receptive to taking on more feminine attributes. If all gay men came out precisely at 12 years old and behaved in precisely the same manner, this wouldn't be so confusing. But like most of psychology, it is not cut and dry. Psychologists can't even figure out what personality traits are stable, and that has been studied since 1950. It used to be the "OCEAN" traits (outgoing, conscientious, extroverted, agreeable, neurotic) but now that's been mildly debunked. And, that is far more simple than human sexuality.

And, there are still people who think homosexuality is caused by molestation...and people who are gay who are willing to back them up (more lesbians than gay men, but they're out there). So, you won't get a single brain scan or maternal amniocentesis for testosterone level to answer everything. Even genetic studies of twins raised apart showed that while MOST identical twins raised apart were both gay...not all were. So, go figure. Not 100% genetic, either.

r202 my guess is your brain was exposed to enough testosterone to make you fairly masculine but not enough to make you hetero. I'm a bi total top who can't stand to socialize with feminine people (female or male). All my friends have always been other masculine guys or lesbians. I don't feel like this research explains me very well.

"Historians claim: Nobody is born gay"

The guy who wrote this article and the people were interviewed must post here. They are assholes.

R199/r200....you should probably take a break from this site for a little while. You're very angry. Maybe go out for a walk.

The attempt to link homosexuality with effeminacy is wrong because homosexual men show a great variety of mannerisms and gender expression and the same about heterosexual people. So many heteosexual men show varied degrees of effeminacy and heterosexual women also show varied degrees of masculinity. Let alone that masculine and feminine vary through cultures and time.

It is not sexual orientation that determines your gender expression; it is role models, life experiences and your gender expression may vary through time. It is not that rigid.

One word. Mary! and Yummers !

[quote][R199]/[R200]....you should probably take a break from this site for a little while. You're very angry. Maybe go out for a walk.

Not really, R207. I have a PhD and you're a junior in College. I used to grade your papers. You're mistaking frustration w/ someone's lack of education with anger. People thought I was "mad" at them when I gave them 7/10... no..they just deserved a 7/10. When you scoffed at wikipedia (despite me telling you to read the cited link within the entry) that was pretty absurd. I wasted my time finding not one but 2 articles for your lazy ass and all I got for it was you scoffing that I linked to wikipedia? Sorry, bitch - you are getting the response you are due.

And, so are you. Ignored. You have issues.

two snaps!

It is kind of rude to demand links, R211, and then be cunty to the person who bothered to find them for you - who wasn't even the original poster of those "facts".

Not to mention, you could have easily found those links yourself. I don't think he's the one with the "issues." You seem hypersensitive.

Many masculine dudes are cordial with fem guys. It's not always a hostile dynamic

Tme for a breather, cunts

Is R213 the same person as the person ignored? Okay, well, let's ignore you again.

Go ahead and ignore me too, r216 -I don't agree with you either....

Let it go, guys. Way too early for this.

It's not the same person or their post wouldn't have shown up on your screen.

Feel the love:

I don't know but they're not into feminine gay guys so ignored. The less homophobia on a gay site, the better.

I'm a feminine gay guy, but I'm not into feminine gays. Should be ashamed?

If you ignore someone, do your posts disappear from their stream as well?

I don't think so.

I am a feminine straight guy and feel that i was born to the wrong sexual identity. I identify as a masculine gay man. I have a large penis and a deep voice but I have feminine interests. However I identify as a masculine gay, who prefers to fuck feminine gays. Q - what is my brain like?

A - You sound like the perfect candidate for Sean Cody r225!

R222 Why are youi not into feminine guys?

I'm a femidom-wearing fem gay fairy. I identify as trans MTF femme hetero. Where do I fit into all of this?

WHEN DO THE TEARS STOP????

R226, not really. You can't be feminine and be a model with Sean Cody. Their talent ads are clear about that.

You truly are a gullible moron, R230. Half those guys have purses falling out of their mouths. That is, when they don't have a dick shoved their throats.

Not sure what you mean by that expression, r231, but most of their talent is pretty masculine. Those who aren't are able to pass as such on camera.

So if I start dressing more in a femininie style and start speaking with a lisp will that make me unattractive for the same sex?

Why is that, I need to ask because in the end I am still a guy.

Don't worry about this stuff. The Gay identity is dying as the standard identity for us Mo's and none too quickly. Having to be a nelly-swish is no longer required baggage in being a HE-mosexual. There's room in the world for everyone. Any who feel it instilled in themselves to be an imitation female will not be threatened or belittled, but the days of such beings being the identifying image for being homosexual are over. Gay will become what it has always silently been, a radical form of homosexuality. There is now a new normal for being homosexual.

OP needs to stop creeping on his "bros" if he truly wants to be bros with them.

You need to write them off as potential sex partners and respect their boundaries instead.

And if you were a real man; if you were "masculine," you'd "man up" and come out of the closet.

You would own who you are and not take any shit from them instead of approaching them under false pretenses.

You don't stand a chance of getting anyone's respect and trust in the closet. And your position is only "frightening" because you're a pathetic, weak, lying creep.

They're probably all straight, so quit being such a fag and just be a fag.

OP needs to leave his sports buddies alone.

If you want to date a gay dudebro, don't despair, because they're out there and they're easier to locate than ever before. Just go to Facebook or real jock.com

Every mid-sized city has gay sports leagues for whichever sport you like. You can play the game and play the field.

But you don't pester straight guys for sex. Harassment or creeping is wrong; so is pathetically pining and waiting forever -- have some self-respect.

Perhaps we should stop imposing homogenous conceptions about homosexual people. Not all homosexual me are effeminate; not all homosexual men are masculine. There is a broad variety of behaviours among us. So we should top assuming "we all are like this and that".

Are feminine guys on real jock?

When did OP say he was pursuing his jock friends?

R235 and R236 seem to have some other sort of agenda and reading comprehension problems.

Where does OP say he's hitting on his straight friends? He says he wants a boyfriend who's the kind of guy who'd fit in with him and his crew. (Which is sort of what we all want, isn't it? A mate our friends will like and want to hang out with.)

Not that what you say is wrong, it's just not anywhere close to the OP

What are you talking about R231? Sean Cody and Corbin Fisher sell the illusion that you are watching a bunch of hot straight guys (and Quinn) fucking and, just an importantly, making out with each other.

That's the fantasy and if the guys can't sell it they don't get cast. I've never met any of them off camera, so i can't tell you how much of it is an act, but on camera they sell the straight frat dudebro jock (did I leave out any trigger words) pretty damn hard.

[quote]While the perception that all gay me are femme is obviously not true, that's all you see in the media, from the femme couple on Modern Family to any representation of the gay community-- it's all White Parties and drag queens and Madonna. Even a board like DL where everyone is calling each other "Mary" and talking about "caftan wearers" and "pearl clutchers" can seem like an alternate reality.

I wonder if this is a mostly American thing. Americans love to box people in.

R105 You can be closeted AND have a wife and a bunch of children.

Many people seem to have reading comprehension problems, including you, R240. The OP NEVER uses the word I and never says he is talking about himself. It is in no way clear that the OP is a masculine gay man, nor what his age is. My reading from the start is that this OP is an admirer of some identity he has cooked up, "the masculine young man in the closet, struggling to come out." I'm not sure OP is the Program Troll, as a few have suggested. But I am pretty sure OP is NOT masculine and doesn't know very much about reality and its subtleties and nuances. The original post is inconsistent and its agenda is difficult to understand.

I think its a troll who fetishises "hot masculine bro dudes" of some sort, and he's getting his jollies creating an elaborate scenario where the handsome young masculine closet case is some sort of (ironically) sad puppy. With a "plight".

It's some twisted shit.

This would sort of fit in with Program Troll's M.O.

Yes R242... No such thing as sorting people into boxes in places like Europe, Asia, and the Middle East region... *rolling eyes*

R232/R241: Sean Cody/Corbin Fisher paid shills. Probably community college washouts, like most of their "stars."

r245 are you from any of those places?? Seems like OP should move to BRazil where most of men are bisexual.

Actually R244, if you look at OP's first responses he says "FWIW, I am not the hypothetical guy, though I was him when I was in high school and college. Came out at 23, found out I was not the only one, but it did take some time. I just see so much anger at guys who don't want to toe the party line on here... "

And I can pretty much attest to being that guy myself, hoping that I'd find another frat boy who was also gay so I wouldn't have to deal with the whole gay bar scene (my first foray was a night the club was having a drag show and I was traumatized.) Have long since worked that all out, but the persona he created/the guy he was when he was younger seems pretty authentic.

Program troll is far less erudite and is constantly asking questions, don't think it's him.

Not following the Sean Cody bashing. Regardless of how gay (or fey) their actors might be in real life, on camera most of them act pretty fratty and macho since that's what the fans are paying for, no?

If talent is not able to credibly depict themselves as masculine jocks, they wont be hired by Sean Cody in the first place.

Can you Sean Cody trolls please pack it up and take it to another thread? Damn. this is why bitches get cussed out.

Sports = jocks = muscular men in tight uniforms.

Not hockey

Answer r229: Those are hard fought tears. They will flow to the bitter - oh it WILL be bitter - end!

It's why the cunt troll OP started this shit in the first place.

BUMP

Many masculine gay guys are also very unattractive, especially those who feel like they're the center of the universe and look down on bottoms thinking that having sex with one is doing him a heavenly favour.

Whatever dude

Just the tip. It doesn't need to go all the way in. Otherwise that would be gay. And we CAN'T have that can we? Only every once in a while say once a month. We don't want to be associated with the queens.

R255, I know the type of guy you're talking about. They think just because they're tops, they're all catches no matter how unattractive they are. It's always been fun turning them down and then witnessing their outrage. How dare a bottom say no to such a catch!

Bottoms are like busses. Always another one in 10 minutes.

This about masculine dudes, not tops or bottoms. 🏉🏈🏀⚾️👮🏿

Exactly R259. The truth is there is a reason some tops develop that attitude.

If you are a good top who is decent looking you ARE in demand, and it is true that bottoms are easily replaceable. That can make it hard for them to but up with that "bossy bottom" attitude.

R260 l agree bro. Watching the Titans play this weekend?

OP, I understand the plight more than anyone.

Tops are easily replaceable too because they always seem to be hornier than bottoms. Just show them a guy's butt and they go crazy about it, the butt is al, they have in their minds. In such situation you can choose your top easily.

Masculine gay guys don't have any plight, OP is a stupid troll and nothing more. Sadly, feminine men have always been on the bottom of the totem pole, in general masculinity is revered more then being feminine period. Just look at DL and how many anti0fem jokes there are made daily, it's ridiculous

So masculine gay men don't have a plight, they have a privilege and if they are any of them out there wailing and whining about hard they have it... they need to stop bitching and just count their lucky fucking stars.

The thing is all people have degrees of femininity and masculinity. It also needs to remembered that the concepts of masculine and feminine behavior and "gay" and "straight" behavior varies based on country and society. Two guys holding hands is taboo here and seen as gay but in South Korea it's just two friends holding hands and nothing is seen as gay about that

It is not as bad as what effeminate guys experience, but it difficulty is its own struggle

Holding hands is not masculine or feminine. It's a neutral thing.

What about relationships and getting married? Masculinity me or feminine?

R267 let two men (even str8 men) walk through a southern town or some inner city ghetto and ask them if it's neutral -___-

I wonder if this whole "you fey, me jock" thing is American? I'm a somewhat feminine man if I say so myself and to some other people as well, to others again, not so much. I have friends that are jocks, friends that are feminine, friends that are gay, friends that are straight, friends that are thin, friends that are fat..... I have straight jock friends, who couldn't care less one way or the other, that I'm gay. Why all this categorising of each other, and refusal of looking outside of the box you are all in? Self-segregate much?

R270: you claimed up thread you aren't into feminine guys

R270, having lived in Europe, it may seem like an American thing and it definitely is a quality in the U.S. But the U.S. is not as bad as Islamic countries, Russia, and others that are homophobic. All those cultures tend to look down on women as well. Homophobia and sexism are closely linked, if not inextricably so. Straight men I've known who were raised to respect women don't seem to be so hung up on gay men in general, including those who are more effeminate in their mannerisms. My brother, Mr. Captain of the Football Team, is a great example of this. He never had a problem with me or any other gay person and we're very close.

Woe is me. My nuts and dong are so big, the gals complain about my man-spreading and the visual overload. My voice is so deep, people feel threatened by me, or they give me everything I ask for, plus extra, for free. I must peel the ladies and gents off me on a daily basis. My life is indeed a plight.

r271 No I didn't. -But no, I'm not into fucking with feminine guys (in general, it has happened now and then, though), but I hang and party with them very often..

r272 But what about gays dividing gays in masculine and feminine? Those are some tough boxes! It's like masculine guys are stigmatizing feminine guys, and then none can mix with the other. -That's what it looks like from here, seen with some very European eyes.

PS. And yes, you are right about homophobia and sexism being linked!

Any old-time DL-ers remember Dead and Blatant, the metalhead gaybro who was always going on about how masculine and non-scene he was? He got soooo much hell here IIRC.

Hah, he would have hated me.... feminine and listen to metal and noise.

R274: anyone can temporarily place you on ignore and see you also wrote R222.

Why are you lying about it?

r277 I see, didn't remember that one. Not lying though. I don't really see, what that had to do with what I wrote in r270 Not into feminine guys in general... sexually. It has happened, about 4 or 5 times in my twenties (and I was kind of a slut). Outside the bed, I'm just as much into feminine guys as I am to masculine gay guys, straight guys or women. My best friends are masculine gay guys. I have other friends that are feminine gay guys, and I have straight friends.... Not exactly lying there, am I?

R278: you wrote R222 and then went on about your European eyes seeing this American phenomenon of self segregating. That struck me as a contradiction which led me to point out your comment at R222.

The 'lie' was denying you wrote up thread that which you clearly did.

r277 I'm also the one who wrote r138

I know R280. You are all over the map on this issue. I found that confusing which is why I am curious and asking you to clarify.

It's your choice to do so or not...

Both of them ?

r281 Let me clarify for you: There is a difference between sexuality and social situations. If a guy exclusively fucks redheads, it doesn't mean he can't have blond friends. I don't see how that is so hard to understand. Not exactly a brain teaser. I'm not turned on by other fem guys.... I'M the pushy bottom, thank you very much. However, I'll gladly buy a fem guy a beer, and have fun with him, while we check out other guys arses! It's happened that a cute fem guy, who could top, have found his way to my bed, but those are far between exceptions.

R283: I gathered as much from your posts. It's clear you claim to have fem friends while not having a sexual attraction to fem men.

But, you didn't address the point of confusion:

You also went on to imply you are exempt from the self segregation you see in others. I am curious to know why your exclusion of fems as sexual partners isn't also a form of this self imposed segregation you ascribe to others?

r284 I already did.

I can't speak for other dudes, but I don't find feminine or non-masculine dudes attractive. I am attracted only to masculine traits and attributes in men. I could be friends with a non-masculine dudes, but even that can be a challenge because they tend to have vastly differently interests, mannerisms, and social circles than I live in.

How old are you R286?

I am attracted to masculinity, but not to hypermasculine guys. I love balanced masculinity.

I don't care if a guy is feminine or masculine as long as he is good guy I'll date him. I tend to not like extremes though, super masculine is annoying and super feminine can be irritating. I just want a regular person and not a caricature

But the thing is masculine gay guys are not unique special snowflakes so they need to get over themselves because chances are they will meet another gay man that is into the same stuff that they like.

All they need to do is find gay sports groups, or gay comic conventions or gay internet chats about their interests etc. In this day and age of social media there is no excuse for "feeling alone" that is utter rubbish and nothing more. Typical of the generation everyone wants to be a victim even from their privileged ass position

What's masculine, what's feminine. Sometimes it is hard to define the two.

I mainly define masculinity as a form of expression, mannerisms and and attitudes. I don't necessarily consider liking sports or other activities masculine because most of them are defined so by society and they vary depending on the society and culture.

In that sense, I am naturally attracted to certain forms of expression (in the broad sense) that people naturally consider masculine. Certain way of walking, speaking, etc.

If I had to exemplify the spectrum of what I consider masculine, probably this guy in the video is in that spectrum that attracts me about a guy.

It seems to be both a distracting binary, and a limited one - masculine / feminine. But then lots of gay guys have simple rules of attraction. And sure do love their binaries. Luckily not all gay guys.

I don't think you have much of a choice on what type of people will be attractive for you. I think that that occurs naturally for the most part. Also, the spectrum of masculine and feminine is extremely diverse, let alone people in between both.

I'm not so sure of that, R293. Its like saying either you like diverse literature or you don't. Can enjoy a variety of music, or can't. There is education to arrive at the openness. Most people of average intelligence or below, never challenge their minds to open up to new experiences, aesthetically, intellectually, emotionally, sexually. In that sense, yes, your limited mind can be genetic. It's been proven "conservatives" have a different mind set. They are unable to appreciate difference. Not with any pleasure, surely.

R294 I agree what we consider to be attractive is not hard wired in any way

R294 I have never heard anybody say "hey, from now on I decide that men who walk like this or that are not attractive for me".

Hi r270. I suggested at r242 and you see the bitchy response I was given at r245.

[quote]They found that the straight men and gay women had asymmetrical brains; that is, the cerebrum (the largest part of the brain, which is responsible for thought, sensory processing, movement and planning) was larger on the right hemisphere of the brain than on the left. In contrast, they found that women and gay men had symmetrical cerebrums.

[quote][. . .]

[quote]The team next used PET (positron emission tomography) scans to measure the blood flow to the amygdala, that part of the brain controlling emotion, fear and aggression. The images showed how the amygdala connects to other parts of the brain, giving them clues as to how this might influence behavior. They scanned subjects' brains when they at rest and did not show them photos or introduce other behavior that might have been learned.

[quote]They found that in gay men and women, the blood flowed to areas involved in fear and anxiety, whereas in straight men and lesbians it tended to flow to pockets linked to aggression.

[quote]How about effeminate heterosexual men? They exist on large numbers.

No they don't.

watch the entire video, R299

r297 Well, you saw the answers I got. Never say America to an Amurican.

R300

LOL, thanks for that PMBT.

If they're straight and doing these coquettish acts to make themselves more appealing to the opposite sex (I understand that's a big thing in Japan - can't remember the word for it though) any feminine behaviour appears to be an affectation. Listening to them talk, there's no big gestures, their voices seem fairly masculine and so on. The femininity only comes on when they're posing for the camera and crossing their legs, obvious stuff.

I'd call this separate cultural phenomenon. An behavioural adaptation to compete with other heterosexual males by (poorly) mimicking perceived characteristics of homosexuals.

Femininity in men in Japan has nothing to do with homosexuality. They're not mimicking homosexuals. The feminine stereotyping of homosexual men is a relatively recent phenomenon in human history. In ancient times homosexual men were not stereotyped or thought of as effeminate but heterosexual were considered effeminate.

The stereotype about homosexual men as effeminate began to spread when homosexual men who were inclined to transvestitism formed a ghetto with their own characteristics as a group. Their peculiar outgoing attitude is why they were called "gay".

Stereotypes

r303 has absolutely no proof to back up his fabrications whatsoever.

I've read treatises and essays from ancient Greeks, Romans and Mesopotamians stereotyping gay men as effeminate. They used words like "cineadus" and "kinaidos" instead of "faggot." They had transexual prostitute priestesses, for cults like Ishtar and Cybele.

They had a teenage, tranny Emperor named Elagabalus — who went through four wives and two husbands.

The only gay marriages I know of documented in classical times were between a "masculine" man and another man who adopted a female identity — transgender or transvestite.

Gays have been mocked as effeminates in plays by Aristophanes and earlier.

So don't pretend stereotyping or the true fact that many gay men adopt female interests and mannerisms is anything new or culturally unique.

The stereotype holds true and there's nothing wrong with it. So long as everybody understands there are plenty of exceptions to the norm.

I can't speak for Japanese history — but China had plenty of sissy eunuchs stereotyped as effeminate.

Homosexual men used to be depicted performing activities cosidered masculine in Greece and other cultures.

Effeminate homosexual men were a minority the same way effeminate heterosexual men are also a minority.

In Japan things are the other way round. Feminine looks are more associated with heterosexual men and most products and fashion styles that promote more of a feminine look target heterosexual men. Homosexual men tend to be associated with more masculine looks and bodybuilding subculture or what they call マッチョ (Maccho).

One has to take into account that people who are gender non-conformist are always a minority be it heterosexual or homosexual so they aren't actually representative of an entire group of people.

ddggs

Masculine boys do not use words such as "plight".

truedat, bro

Double true

hmmmmmm

Masculine, feminine, whatever: it's the Joan Sutherland queens you must avoid at all costs! That's just sick!

Most really masculine men who are into men don't even think of themselves as "gay." Gay identity seems to come with a certain distance from mainstream prevailing masculinity.

Truth is, most masculine homosexual men don't feel compelled to let everybody know they're masculine. People usually feel suprised when seeing masculine homosexual men, but that's because culture conditions people to think homosexuality in men = effeminacy. But these men don't feel desperate to show/prove their masculinity to others; they just simply are and that's how they actually show diversity among homosexual people in a natural way.

Femininity VS Masculinity

What's up with the dude's accent in 317?

That kid is a tard

I clicked on 31* and four posts disappeared. Goodbye, Massculina.

r316 is spot-on correct. Masculine dudes rarely come out because: 1) they don't usually see themselves as "gay" ("gay is for the weird guys who don't fit in with regular masculine guys"); 2) even if they think of themselves as gay, they don't want to give us their masculine privilege and take on a stigmatized identity.

Is the sad masculine guy happier now?

masculine privilege is a real thing

Overdramatic

hmmmmm

There need to be more balanced media portrayals

I don't think I've ever met a masculine gay boy. Sorry, but it just isn't a thing.