River Phoenix, Part II

Original thread was here.

The first thread closed. Maybe there is nothing else to say?

He died doing what he loved: drugs.

R2 - It was just in case anyone wanted to keep talking/sharing gossip.

R2 It closed at 600 posts. Just as we were delving more into Johnny Depp creepiness. Also, someone claims Keanu was there that night.

R3 So the guy was raised in a weird child sex cult and was the sole breadwinner in his family at 12! Whattya gonna do, right?

I don't Keanu was there that night - or at least, nobody has ever mentioned him in any accounts I'm familiar with.

Then again, I've read so many different stories it's hard to really know what happened.

The tabloid The Globe said he was there...they even had a picture of him holding River, from MOPI and they put that picture on the cover. I believe that he and Sandra Bullock were both there, because they were best friends to River and Samantha.

I was reading this Interview Magazine... and the article mentioned this Andy warhol Bio ? [quote]Phoenix newly bleached blond as part of his bid to play the young Andy Warhol in a future Van Sant biopic..."

I can't find the original River thread that had 600 post...can anyone link it?

I was reading this Interview Magazine... and the article mentioned this Andy warhol Bio ?

[quote]Phoenix newly bleached blond as part of his bid to play the young Andy Warhol in a future Van Sant biopic..."

R10 The first poster linked it but here it is, again:

Van Sant was working on a Warhol bio. either he never made it or the script morphed into the later made "Factory Girl". I'll attach a bleach blonde pic from that session.

I have never heard that Keanu and Sandra were there. That would actually be shocking to me. The Globe can make their claims that they have these pics but I find it amazing that no one, not one, other witness, ever said Keanu was there that night. Christina Applegate was there, walked outside and saw him convulsing on the sidewalk. Flea was playing onstage. Leonardo Dicaprio saw him leaving a party, as he was arriving. But no one else saw Keanu there? They were very, close friends and would probably have called themselves best friends. I find it odd no one would mention him.

This is the copy of "Pink" I had. I think Amazon has it. It's odd and scattered but very whimsical and there are some interesting hidden information in it, about his time with both Keanu and River. Van Sant has a charming author's voice. Very sweet.

Skip down to comment 201 in this thread and start reading.

The name of Keanu's band was (is?) "Dogstar". Everyone knew that around MOPI, Keanu was -- somehow -- seriously involved with David Geffen. I don't know if it was a relationship or sexual or what but it seemed like everyone knew they were together. River and Keanu were always just friends but Van Sant said Keanu had told him they'd had sex in the movie trailer. He could have just been trying get a rise out of Van Sant but I don't know. River and Keanu were very close.

Geffen is one of those industry guys that gives me the creeps. Then, River dies from an overdose of eight times the lethal limit of cocaine (read that: Eight times the LETHAL limit), mixed with Persian brown heroin (the strongest kind), codeine and diazepam.

Geffen was going to deal with the loss of one of his biggest stars, shortly after the death of Phoenix. He was having issues with Nirvana. From the Wikipedia of the "In Utero" album:

"Soon afterward, in April 1993 Albini remarked to the Chicago Tribune that he doubted Geffen would release the completed album.[59] Albini commented years later that in a sense he felt he spoke about the situation "from a position of ignorance, because I wasn't there when the band was having their discussions with the record label. All I know is [. . .] we made a record, everybody was happy with it. A few weeks later I hear that it's unreleasable and it's all got to be redone".[60] While Albini's remarks in the article drew no immediate reply from the group or its label, Newsweek ran a similar article soon afterwards that did.[61] Nirvana denied there was any pressure from its label to change the album's sound, sending a letter to Newsweek that said that the article's author "ridiculed our relationship with our label based on totally erronous [sic] information"; the band also reprinted the letter in a full-page ad in Billboard. Rosenblatt insisted in a press release that Geffen would release anything the band submitted, and label founder David Geffen made the unusual move of personally calling Newsweek to complain about the article.[62]"

I need to be fair to Geffen. I don't know him personally. He could be a nice person but I've just heard that he's also an insanely jealous person.

R8 Was it The Globe that ran the illicit funeral home pics? I forget.

R10 - Linked below!

There is a photoshoot out there of River with his bleached hair.

R8 - Interesting.

R20 He said he'd bleached his hair specifically for this part, that he really wanted it.

****

****

****

He couldn't have bleached his hair yet because he was still making Dark Blood when he died, no?

Maybe it was a wig. He had a buzz cut for Dark Blood so could have worn a wig over that easily.

This was before "Dark Blood". He bleached his hair for the photo tests, then he had it dyed dark and cropped for "Dark Blood".

R25 - I can't remember when he had the bleached hair, but he did have it for awhile (see below).

Read at the bottom of this thread.

Choosing to be circumcised as an adult for no medical reason made me wonder if he got some sort of kick from pain.

Was River a homosexual?

[quote] Was River a homosexual?

Much as with James Dean, the subject will be forever debated. And like James Dean, it was usually more of "any old port in the storm".

R31 He had girlfriends and there are rumors of sexual relations he had with men and they don't sound casting couch-y. Who knows? I don't think so but he was only 23 when he died.

It bugs me that some people insist there is a debate to be had. One of his girlfriends outright said that he was bi, that he felt love for men and women. Anyone trying to claim he was straight is flat out delusional (I know no one here is saying that, but I've seen idiots insist it's all rumours with no substance, and that's just a flat out lie).

The Criterion Collection is releasing the Blu-Ray of My Own Private Idaho on October 6.

I'm re-posting this here because I need y'all to see it:

"All of this is very ironic when one looks yet deeper into Crowley's secret connections. Crowley was not only involved in the OTO but was also a member of an arcane secret society known as the A:.A:. (Argenteum Astrum) or the Order of the Silver Star. The "silver star" referred to is Sirius itself, the most prominent in the heavens and positioned as the chief star in the ancient constellation "Phoenix". The ancient Assyrians and Phoenicians both derive their name from this legacy.

Crowley identified the Order of the Silver Star as the Illuminati itself. As he was considered to be the head of the Illuminati, the correspondences continue to run even deeper. The heart of his magical current was inspired from Sirius and there was much tradition to back this up. In occult tradition, Sirius is the Hidden God or "the sun behind the sun". As the moon reflects the sun, so does the sun reflect Sirius."

Sun Kachina: "Sirius is the Hidden God or 'the sun behind the sun'..." Sirius: The star that "brings" the flood season on the River Nile. Also "chief star in the ancient constellation 'Phoenix'..." River. Phoenix.

"According to the ancient Egyptians, there was a special occult link between Sirius and the Earth when they were at their closest distance. In other words, more universal light was being reflected from Sirius than at any other time of the year. This link was found to be most powerful during the Dog Days of August (Sirius is known as the Dog Star) which run from July 23 rd to August 23rd."

Phoenix turned 23 on August 23rd of that year. An anagram of his name spells 'Viper Heroin X". On the most important holiday in every occultist's calendar, he died from a supposedly accidental overdose.

Odd.

"Bi" = men and boys

R36 NO ONE finds this all odd? Really?!

R36 This has nothing to do with whether or not I believe all this stuff. Someone obviously does.

Bobby Bukowski said he had sex with River before and after Idaho...so can we at least admit that he was bisexual? He seemed completely in love with Keanu and if you could not see that, you must be blind.

R40 - I agree with you. It's only some fangirls who seem to be in denial about his sexuality.

River and Winona, the movie icons of Generation X

Can somebody tell me what version of the movie this is from? I don't remember him kissing Keanu in the cut that I've seen. Is this an outtake?

Here is another one! I don't remember this intimate moment between River and Keanu being in the movie? Is this a deleted scene/outtake? I want to see these scenes!!!!

R43, I don't have the film here with me right now but that looks like the scene from Italy where River had found out his mother is not there. I haven't watched the film for a while but I vaguely remember both this and R44 being from the film. R44 is from the campfire scene where River had just told Keanu he loves him.

I have the film but haven't watched in awhile...the campfire scene is so dark, I can't see much. I had just assumed River kissed Keanu in Italy...when I get a chance, I'll watch it again.

When I was watching extras I noticed how flirtatious Keanu was with Gus...I guess it was a mutual attraction.

River always looked dirty to me. Some say Joaquin's personal hygiene is almost non-existent, so it would not surprise me.

Well, they were raised like animals in the rain forest. I'm sure waxing and deodorant weren't top priorities during their formative years

I think Joaquin might just be a jerk? He is a great actor but he seems totally full of himself.

On a side walk in my neighborhood where I have lived since 1999 are painted "Heavy Metal Rules!" and "I love River Phoenix!" Both are wearing away from weather and foot traffic. I wonder if whoever painted them still loves River...

[quote]River and Keanu were very close.

They seemed madly in love. To this day, Keanu still can't talk about him without getting upset. There was an interview they did for MOPH where they even said they were each other's Romeo and Juliet and it was just really obvious. I think it's very sad.

Did the Autopsy show do one on River?

R52: yes they did. I watched it about a month ago. I have the one on Michael Hutchence set to record in about 100 minutes...

I should clarify since there are multiple autopsy shows. I have seen the one on Reelz with the British pathologist. They have done many of the biggies:

Elvis

MJ

Whitney

Karen carpenter

Anna Nicole

River

Hutchence

Others I am forgetting

R54 where can I watch the show online?

Here you go R55

River was a junky...apparently showers are not the first thing they think of. Some have said, Keanu had to be showered before people would have sex with him.

r45, no, those two clips are not in the movie. I just watched it last night. So, where are they from?

R58 Franco's 'Endless Idaho", maybe?

R57 The "Grunge era" wasn't called that for nothing. Slobbing around was the cool thing to do and River was raised on the streets in under palm trees by cult hippies. Scrubbing either River or Keanu down (or both), to sleep with them, wouldn't have been a chore for me.

R51 They clearly loved each other very much but as much as it would make for great fantasy fodder, I can't tell if they loved each other like brothers or romantically.

Gus let Franco do his thing with the extra footage....what was Franco's point in reworking it? Joaquin did not like it being shown...for some reason the Phoenix family was unhappy about Franco's artistic endeavors where River was concerned. Nothing new there, if they can't make money off River...no one else should. They shut it down.

R52 - The Autopsy show in the UK did, yeah.

R60 - I think they were understandably unhappy with an attention whore like Franco using River for his attention whoring art projects. Not saying the Phoenix's have never exploited River per se (I certainly feel like the parents did when he was alive), but I can see why they - especially Joaquin - would be uncomfortable with My Own Private River.

To give Franco some credit though, I do find the extra footage really cool and at least he brought that to light, I guess.

Never understood the fascination with River. For me he was just a marginally attractive, marginally talented actor with a persistent case of acne and a sulky teenager's attitude. The only positive thing about him. He was better looking than Joaquin, but then again, Joaquin is incredibly ugly.

I think Joaquin is attractive...just a shithead.

I never saw the footage but I kind of assumed Franco showed more affection between River and Keanu...I have a feeling it bothered Heart more than it bothered Keanu.

R63 - I don't think we ever heard from Keanu regarding My Own Private River?

Joaquin was - and still can be - pretty hot. But yes, he does seem to be a douche.

No, I never heard of Keanu saying anything about My Own Private River and I don't know if Gus would talk to him about it. Gus totally outed Keanu in PINK but most people didn't seem to catch on.

I find that most people connected to Hollywood are more interested in the lint in their bellybuttons...not really interested in other human beings.

I have to give Johnny Depp this, to clear the air. Maybe he's been misunderstood.

Wasn't a River Phoenix a ten-hit-die monster in AD&D?

R66 - Depp does seem to be quite generous when he wants to be. I don't believe he's any kind of monster anyway, although the Anthony Fox disappearance was pretty weird.

R68 I think that may have been a cartel/mob hit. I never thought Johnny was the one in charge of all of that but dealers were using that club before it change hands and I'm sure they had no intention of stopping, once Johnny took over. He was just the club owner who probably came to an understanding with them (an understanding he couldn't refuse.)

R69 - That makes sense.

Sorry, posted too soon...

I think Depp got in over his head, and that's probably partly why he ended up moving to France full time with Paradis.

Did they find the supposedly eerie, final shots?

I think Jamie Harris was the "British guy" Dermot Mulroney slammed against a wall and blamed for getting River involved in drugs. It's a guess but his past being with Ione Skye (she had a history with both Phoenix and Red Hot Chili Peppers' Keidis) makes me think it might be him.

I'm looking for a "Little Nikita" promo picture I saw as a kid - it shows a shirtless River either holding an American flag or posing in front of one. Can anyone here help me out?

R74 This?

Thanks, r75, that's it (even though I had slightly misremembered the details).

I had torn the picture out of a TV magazine and kept it under my pillow when I was 15 or so - sometimes I feel nostalgic for those pre-internet days when "stimulating" pictures were so much harder to come by.

R76 We always appreciate things more when we have to work for them.

His friends said he liked Drug Store Cowboy a lot...and after he saw it, he wanted to do heroin. No trouble in Florida or Hollywood, finding heroin.

Word was that while filming Idaho, River, Keanu and Rodney Harvey used every day.

R78 Yeah, there's mixed accounts. Ethan Hawke says they were all snorting coke on "Stand by Me", which although River was 15 during filminh, seems awful to me when I think of how young they all seem in it.

I don't remember Ethan Hawke in stand by me. Do you mean the movie the year before? I think it was called 'the explorers'?

Well who gave them the coke? That would not surprise me but who was the producer? Who was in charge of bringing coke to the set? Of course they were way too young for coke. Where was Heart, or River's Dad?

R80 I'm sorry, that wasn't clear; Hawke said he knew all the boys were, though he wasn't part of it. R81 It's despicable. It always makes me mad when these drug dealers target kids. Supposedly it was someone on the set and in the movie who provided it but I can't remember if it was ever said who that was.

On the first thread, the REM song "At My Most beautiful" was posted and it really does seem to reveal more than most realize about their relationship; certainly, on Michael Stipe's side who was clearly in love with him. When his friends and family needed to track River down, apparently, he was usually at Michael Stipe's. He'd be gone filming for months and then would crash at Stipe's, even though he had a home he shared with Sue Solgot, who was the girlfriend who said River was bi. People would call his house looking for him and she'd say he was at Michael's.

He used to call and leave rambling messages on people's machines and always made sure to say who he was, which his family and friends always laughed at because his messages couldn't be mistaken for anyone else's. He also loved quirky rhymes and rhythms in his music and poetry and that was part of the reason he loved "XTC" so much.

Of all the people in his life he could have been tied to, it seems like things with Stipe were actually pretty serious. River's sister Rain is in the video. When you look at the lyrics to this song, it is completely a love song. It's also completely about River. Lyrics:

At My Most Beautiful, R.E.M.

I've found a way to make you I've found a way A way to make you smile I read bad poetry into your machine I save your messages just to hear your voice You always listen carefully to awkward rhymes You always say your name like I wouldn't know it's you At your most beautiful I've found a way to make you I've found a way A way to make you smile At my most beautiful I count your eyelashes, secretly With every one, whisper I love you, I let you sleep I know you're closed eye watching me Listening, I thought I saw a smile I've found a way to make you I've found a way A way to make you smile

R83 Let me try to set those lyrics up so they're more readable:

At My Most Beautiful, R.E.M.

I've found a way to make you

I've found a way

A way to make you smile

I read bad poetry into your machine

I save your messages just to hear your voice

You always listen carefully to awkward rhymes

You always say your name like I wouldn't know it's you

At your most beautiful

I've found a way to make you

I've found a way

A way to make you smile

At my most beautiful

I count your eyelashes, secretly

With every one, whisper I love you, I let you sleep

I know you're closed eye watching me

Listening, I thought I saw a smile

I've found a way to make you

I've found a way

A way to make you smile

[quote]Where was Heart, or River's Dad?

Reading between the lines, it seems that Heart was aware but chose to live in denial. He was the big source of income for the family. His father lived in South America when River's addiction problems got bad, and I think was an alcoholic himself?

Depp is super creepy, his friendship with Marilyn Manson, The West Memphis Three and Hunter S. Thompson, all of them are/were satanists, says a lot about what kind of a guy he might be behind closed doors. Plus the Viper Room was a notorious drug den and infamous mobster hangout. How come nobody ever found out what happened to Anthony Fox.

R86 ...and Depp left for France right after his disappearance. I do think that was a mob hit but I don't know just what Depp's connections to the mob were. I think he was just owner of a club that had mob connections forever, even as it changed hands and names. I don't think Depp had any control over what they were doing there, it was sort of an understanding he had no choice but to agree to.

R86 Marilyn Manson's ex, actress Rose McGowan, grew up in the same cult that River did, "Children of God" but I think she was in the European branch. It could have been a generational thing -- many Gen Xrs have hippy parents -- but the more you look for connections and coincidences in this story, the more you find them.

Rare photo:

Since his hair could have had its own fan club, here's the "Indiana Jones" period, haircut:

He was truly beautiful.

R91 In every way a person can be.

Ugly sweater defiance at Academy Award nominee dinner:

R93 I love it. It looks like a sweater he pulled off the rack of a vegan version of Kmart, like "I wore a sweater for you". And he's got little Martha with her buzz cut standing next to him. The most lovable troll, ever.

Academy Awards nominees announcement. It's a "Where's Waldo?' of who looks the most timeless out of the bunch.

R95 - Ha, love that shot!

I'm telling you and I know this from experience, the pretty, ethereal ones are usually the ones packing the biggest carry-on packages.

Depp likes to play gangsters and mobster, he collected 'art work' by John Wayne Gacy he even spoke out for Bulger recently.

“There’s a kind heart in there,” Depp said. “There’s a cold heart in there. There’s a man who loves. There’s a man who cries. There’s a lot to the man.” Family members of the victims were outraged about Depp's comments.

I find it strange that after more than 15 years nobody knew what happened to Fox, it could very well have been a mobster hit and I find it hard to believe Depp doesn't know what happened to his former business partner.

pics of Depp at the courthouse where Fox sued Johnny for mishandling of profits from the Viper room.

I just watched the Final 24 show on River. I am confused but then I haven't seen Dark Blood. In the show he is seen to have long hair in the last scene of the film shot in LA with Judy Davis which is done as an re-enactment with supposed lookalikes, though the woman playing Davis looks nothing like her. And River is also shown to have long hair at the Viper Club. But I thought he had short hair in Dark Blood? Someone mentioned he wore a wig over his short hair. True?

He and Kurt Cobain are having anal sex in Heaven as we speak.

R99 I think they just did that for the sake of the audience because his hair was iconic for him, so the figure moving throughout the scenes could be associated with him. But yes, he had his hair short, dark and cropped for his last film, on the night he died.

R100 I think that would break Michael Stipe's heart.

The Final 24 scene with Judy Davis is very funny in the way they show her allegedly going from being tender with River in a love moment to ice cold after the director says cut.

R103 It does seem funny but apparently, by all accounts on set, that's exactly what it was. I'd think pulling away from him would be the problem. He was the best screen kisser in the business, among other things. The magic was lost on Judy, apparently.

That re-enactment seems exaggerated for effect because I can't believe she would have reacted like that to River.

R105 I don't know how much is taken from Sluizer's account -- Davis and Sluizier famously loathed each other -- but by all accounts, she was hard on him. She called him the "frat boy" when referring to him on set. Now, I don't know how much of it was just her being older and professional and having little patience for what she saw as a guy who, yes, was incredibly talented but was blowing it and wasting people's time. Of course, River's creative needs were ridiculous but her method. diva antics were okay, though.

I think that River was a people pleaser and I mean that as a compliment; he sort of survived through his life being inherently guileless by the fact that he always wanted those around him to feel good, even to the point where he'd return and apologize to his agent if he thought he was ever less than completely kind and accommodating. As he'd once said, that was just his nature.

While I don't blame Judy for River's death, I think he wasn't used to people disliking him -- everybody liked River! -- and her attitude was just the straw that broke the camel's back. He'd been working non stop in Hollywood since childhood, the main bread winner in his family and seemed tired and vulnerable from it all.

R105 Here's Sluizer's account:

"...Q: There are rumors that there was some tension between River Phoenix and Judy Davis on set. Is that true?

George Sluizer: To start with: There was never any tension whatsoever between River Phoenix and me. He was friendly, professional and we had a pleasant time working together. As for Judy, she was a... ehm, I'm looking for a friendlier word here... BITCH!!! (audience laughs)

I mean, she is a terrific actress, I picked her myself, and she did an excellent job. But she was incredibly difficult to work with, both for me and for River.

Thankfully we had Jonathan Pryce on the set, who was wise or at least mature enough not to get pulled into the fighting. At one point when his character has to yell and curse at her, Judy objected to that. I mean, this was typical: she had read it in the script and had accepted it, but once we were shooting she started to make a fuss, saying she didn't want to be spoken to in such a way. At which point Jonathan said: "Ah, come on Judy, let's keep this in. I only accepted this role because I could act mean to you!" (audience laughs). And that settled it.

I won't allow anyone to speak against her talent as an actress, but if we're talking about her qualities as a human I advise everyone to keep far away from her..."

"Depp likes to play gangsters and mobster, he collected 'art work' by John Wayne Gacy he even spoke out for Bulger recently.

“There’s a kind heart in there,” Depp said. “There’s a cold heart in there. There’s a man who loves. There’s a man who cries. There’s a lot to the man.” Family members of the victims were outraged about Depp's comments."

Johnny Depp is, and always has been, a complete idiot. He's "good friends" with the very, very, very, very weird Damien Echols, the weirdo freak who was accused of murdering three young boys. The whole story has been documented in not one, not two, but THREE "Paradise Lost" documentaries. I don't know if Echols is a murderer, but he is one very freaky individual....and Depp really likes him.

In his book "Role Models" John Waters has a chapter devoted to his dear friend Leslie Van Houten. She was one of the Manson followers who broke into Rosemary and Leo LaBianca's home and butchered them. Anyway, during the filming of "Crybaby" Waters told Depp about his dear friend Leslie, who was languishing in prison. And Depp wanted to visit her! That's right; he wanted to establish a friendship with one of the Manson murderers. But he couldn't be cleared for visitation because he has some legal troubles of his own; he'd been arrested for trashing a hotel room or something. Anyway, Waters said it was just as well, because the bad publicity that would have occurred had he started visiting her may have ruined his career. Too bad he never got to visit her. Maybe the movie going public would have been spared all those awful Tim Burton movies starring Depp and those stupid Pirates of the Caribbean movies.

I know people who have met Judy but have not met her myself. She is a Taurus and I know some of them and they can be prickly and formidable people, if you believe all that astrology stuff. Plus adding being an actor to it and that can make someone additionally hard to deal with. I do know someone who claimed to be a people pleaser but she was actually very selfish and unaware how her behavior impacted negatively on others. Also she is a druggie so ... But everyone is an individual.

R109 River never publicly claimed to be a "people pleaser", that was just my impression. I think Davis is an incredible actress and I'm sure she's deeply loved by the people who are closest to her and really understand her but I think it's hard to really become friends with Judy; you earn it and it takes time. I think River was different, in that he was a great listener and made everyone feel like they were the most important person in his life, while he was talking to them, that they had his complete attention. When very charismatic people want to please, it can be a powerful experience to be in their line of sight. His natural talent could have come from the same place as his natural charisma.

Judy doesn't have charisma but she has incredible talent and creative intuition. They may have respected each other over the talent either had but Judy seemed suspicious of his charisma.

[quote] Waters told Depp about his dear friend Leslie, who was languishing in prison. And Depp wanted to visit her! That's right; he wanted to establish a friendship with one of the Manson murderers.

Well, to be fair, so did Waters. Shouldn't you be just as critical of him?

R110 The better way to say it, is that I do think he tried to manipulate people with his charm but for pure reasons: He just wanted them to be happy and he wanted them to like or love him. He wasn't motivated by material gain, he wasn't ruthlessly competitive , he wasn't even notoriously promiscuous and trying to seduce people into bed, constantly. Others seemed to inherently understand this about him and that's why so, many people express such love and admiration for him. Imagine someone born to be a politician, with no desire to exploit and screw people over for personal gain and you'd have River.

I think Judy sensed this and considered it a challenge to deflect his charm, which I'm sure he sometimes used to mask deficiencies and fears. It was almost like she made it a point to say: "Your 'Bambi' shtick not going to work on me, pretty boy, get your shit together!" So she came across as a mega-bitch. Of course, river really was vulnerable at the time and a genuinely good guy and she didn't have to be so hard on him. But everyone has their motivations and insecurities and her female status in the industry, which she think held her back compared to her male directors and co-stars, was one of hers.

R111 Depp has long had a weird fascination with the anti-social types and even got the same "Wind over Heaven" tattoo with Damian Echols ( who is also covered in satanic and Aleistar Crowley related tattoos, as well).

R113 I was willing to give Echols the benefit of the doubt until I read an awful and con firmed story about his abuse of a sick dog, that made me ill myself and at that point, i seriously thought he could have killed those boys. Depp likes to skirt on the edge of danger and violating the most sacred of social boundaries, so possibly supporting a murderer of children in order to get to know his motivations better, seems to be a risk he's willing to take.

Here's a haunting montage I found using River's death scene from Dark Blood where he dies in Judy's arms. The music is from a 17th century opera, where the young Adonis dies in the goddess Venus' arms after being gored by a bore:

R115 I really think he was one of the best actors in the history of cinema. I really do. And not just because "OMG, he was sooo cute!" in "Tiger Beat" way. I think he was a profound talent who would always be far ahead of his peers, no matter how many failures he had in his personal and professional life. Everyone in Hollywood knew it. Everyone.

Sluizer was used to people being intimidated by him and Judy wasn't, so he did little things to send Judy over the edge, such as keeping her out in the hot sun when she needed a hat and complaining about her flat chest and how they needed to find a way to pump up her tits for River's death scene. Macho, bullheaded things like that. It was an ego thing. Judy had no support from Jonathan Pryce or River, who didn't want to rock the boat when it came to Sluizer (I don't blame them really). But at the end of the day this is irrelevant: I've seen Dark Blood and Judy's performance is brilliant. They are all good in the movie, but Judy is just so bloody interesting. Seriously the best thing ever to come out of Australia, no wonder Blanchett and Ledger idolised her. Hell, Blanchett's been copying Judy's style for years now.

R117 They all, really, brought the best out in each other onscreen. That's the thing about this; the difficult personality clashes in real life made for excellent work onscreen.

The character relationships onscreen makes for a compelling threesome; you feel sympathy for different characters at different times but none of them are completely innocent nor completely villainous, no matter how outrageous the premise gets. You believe it. A script that would read bizarrely off-screen, makes sense when these very, talented actors are performing it together.

That's exactly it r118. The best art is always about that, when characters don't fall into specific 'types' and audience or reader allegiances can change.

Judy by her nature is a bit prickly, she's incapable of 'acting' outside of her work and that makes her a bit socially awkward. I found this interview and it's an insight into the personality. What initially seems a bit 'hard' quickly becomes someone quite refreshingly down to earth and straight talking. I think another aspect of why Judy is a bit intimidating, especially to men, is that for the time period where she was hugely prominent, she didn't fit the conventional expectations of what lead actresses were supposed to look like.

R98- he guys! We have a "Johnny Depp is evil" troll!

Anyone who thinks the West Memphis Three are guilty is a fucking moron.

Sorry to be a bit off topic, but did anybody see Judy Davis on The View circa 2007? She was sat next to Elizabeth Hasselbeck and she looked suicidal as Elizabeth was bellowing in her ear "SO JUDY, I'VE HEARD YOU DON'T LIKE GOING TO THE OSCARS OR THE EMMYS, WHY IS THAT?!

R120 I think she's a great actress and interesting personality, very intelligent but also, someone prone to bully and dominate. In fact, I think the reason she and Sluizer didn't get along is because they're probably both the same kind of alphas; they see vulnerability and they go in for the kill. She was rough on river, no doubt about that and not just rough in a tongue-in-cheek, broad kind of way; she cornered him whenever he showed weakness and called him numerous names to staff on set.

R122 I didn't say they were guilty, I said Echols is less innocent and sympathetic a character than some -- including Depp -- make him out to be. It's not a long shot that someone who brutally tortures sick dogs and has a fascination with Satanism could be mistaken for a killer.

I'm not saying the evidence was there to say he was but I can understand the questions. People can be Satanists and not be killers, obviously; there are killers who were upstanding members of churches and otherwise mainstream, liked people in their communities before being revealed to be people doing horrible things behind the scenes.

River was in crisis the last months of his life. He didn't want to be a film actor anymore. He wanted to be a musician but there was no demand for it. What people wanted from him was something he no longer desired to share. Also, even if he was making very good money as an actor, god knows how many people he was supporting on that. Also, one must remember this was someone in his early 20s. He had not enjoyed the period of self discovery most young adults get to experience because he had worked all his teen years. He had packed into 23 years what really should have been spread out over a lifetime, and was put into a position where he became the young heartthrob of the film world which obviously appalled and traumatized him. Added to this, if the stories about him being sexually active in a religious cult as a child are actually true, I'm surprised he didn't intentionally seek to kill himself. Here is a compilation of his music:

There is something very dark and disturbing about Depp.

The West Memphis Three got off by entering an Alford plea, which is "a guilty plea in criminal court, whereby a defendant in a criminal case does not admit to the criminal act and asserts innocence. In entering an Alford plea, the defendant admits that the evidence the prosecution has would be likely to persuade a judge or jury to find the defendant guilty beyond a reasonable doubt."

R126 His Mom had created a sort of commune on their Gainesville, FL family property and River was pretty much footing the entire bill for it. His Mother was being the hippie, Earth Mother provider of free stuff for "peace, love and understanding" loafers on his dime. His mother is an interesting character in that I think she was very sincere in her extreme idealism but could not see how pragmatically, in practice, her ideals meant her young Son had to work continuously since childhood to support her ideals with resources. The group of people who essentially lived for free on the Phoenix family property were notoriously called "The Cling-ons" by River's friends. River didn't have the heart to tell "Heart" to take a flying leap and tell her hippie pals to get jobs.

This was also the crisis he was facing: Today, he'd probably most classify himself as a Cultural Libertarian. He was very empathetic and personally generous but i think he was starting to see the cracks in his parents' ideology, where opportunists were held accountable for nothing, while bleeding hearts worked themselves to death for a cause. There were lots of things he was questioning at this point in his life and while he chose to be vegan, there was nothing particularly mainstream and easily boxed-off by his beliefs and motivations.

Dead little twink who liked his drugs. End of story.

The early 90s period was where the counterculture was becoming mainstream. No wonder River might have become jaded. I think Kurt Cobain was going through exactly the same crisis at the time.

Phoenix Micanopy ranch:

R131 His Mom had turned it into a mini-commune.

R129 It's a complex story on the limits of idealism.

It was probably River's idealistic aura that Judy Davis wanted to crush so she could help him evolve. Perhaps she was on his side all along.

R134 If he were in a better place emotionally, older and more secure, they probably would've become friends at a later time. He seemed to like the challenge of becoming friends with gruff, difficult people.

Sluizer was a creep. If only River had more people like Judy Davis around, rather than sycophants who blew smoke up his ass and let him commit slow suicide, he'd still be alive.

R136 I think there is some truth to that statement. He got in over his head in his compulsive habits and addiction but too, many people stood to lose financially by attempting to intervene. I understand his family being in denial but his Mom was still cashing the checks, too.

We have to remember too that Judy is Australian. It's a cultural thing probably. If she sensed River was a druggie being enabled, she couldn't very well intervene but she could interject her disapproval in other ways.

R138 I do see a similarity between how she behaves and how Russell Crowe does. The same no-nonsense gruffness. Not remotely precious.

I wonder who has his eerie, final shots of "Dark Blood"? Someone has them. If Sluizer was able to retrieve everything else, there's no reason why this specific footage should be missing. Here's what Ed Lachman and Sluizer said about it:

"I find it strange, the last take. Why I didn't turn my camera off, why there's just enough light in the room to make him a silhouette, why he stood in front of the camera for ten seconds...it was the eeriest thing I've ever seen in my entire life." - Ed Lachman

"It was creepy. You could see River walking away into the darkness for maybe a whole minute, before he finally disappeared." - George Sluizer

The footage was in a warehouse in London. London is where Dermot Mulroney slammed a model/actor up against a wall and screamed at him for what he called "getting River hooked on drugs." Who was it? Did they have something to do with the missing "Dark Blood" footage?

Why would that supposed footage that River shot on the day of his death not be attached to the footage that Sluizer retrieved that make up what we now have of Dark Blood? It sounds like somebody telling porkies if you ask me, this whole thing of him fading into the shadows. There were completed scenes of River and Judy in the cave. Obviously somebody is having a memory lapse assuming there could be anything more than what Sluizer retrieved.

r140, it sounds like a romanticised fable to me, that they concocted in the wake of River's death, probably to prevent the footage they shot from being destroyed. The more I hear about the people concerned with Dark Blood, the more I think poor Judy Davis was surrounded by some very eccentric types on that production.

To r141, are you now implying that the missing Dark Blood footage has some connection with River's death later that night? Could the footage have been confiscated because it showed that River may or may not have been on drugs at that point in the day? Let me clarify: this footage in the cave was apparently shot on October 30 1993. River died in the early hours of October 31.

R144 I have no idea. I thought maybe someone who liked having access to rare and perhaps macbre things, got it. Some people like to buy art masterpieces just to hide them away and keep them for their own, personal viewing. Some people like to own rare memorabilia. Someone who was around him may have felt emotionally compelled to have it. Some people like to use these eerie things for creepy, personal rituals. I'm not sure why but I do believe the director and cinematographer were telling the truth. In fact, they probably would have thought nothing of it if things had turned out differently and they only found it creepy after the fact because of that night's turn of events.

Sluizer had all the footage but this and he said it was specifically missing. Why? Who has it?

R144 River would die within hours of that last shot.

I have heard these stories of ritual sacrifice with celebrities. Princess Diana, Stanley Kubrick, Heath Ledger, Whitney Houston. Do you think River was victim of these secret forces? One only has to watch Kubrick's Eyes Wide Shut to see that he was trying to shed light on these societies.

R147 I have no idea. Something shady went down that night. Sluizer insisted, repeatedly insisted, that River was not drunk or high that night when he was filming. He was certain that as of the end of their shoot that night, he was totally sober. Within five hours, he would have consumed codeine, Valium, ephedrine and 3 times the lethal limit of heroin and 8 times the lethal limit of cocaine.

Now, tell me, how is that an "accidental" overdose? Did he have a death wish? Or was he under the impression that he was consuming far less than he actually was consuming?

Judy Davis Killed Him!

R148 ...and that's 3 times the LETHAL limit, not overdose limit. 8 times the LETHAL limit not overdose limit.

The Final 24 show claims that on his last day on set River was on drugs but this was the first time he had been like that, since he was clean during the location shooting. The show also re-enacts his supposed freezing and standing in silhouette after Judy walks away from him in the scene after it has ended. Nobody asks him what the hell he is doing, they just watch him.

R149 Don't be silly. Judy didn't care enough to kill him.

I WILL get to the bottom of this.

His Mother said the reason she never pressed charges was because (I'm paraphrasing) "it was an accident and putting that person in prison would do nothing, it wouldn't make a difference, now".

Some Judy Davis quotes from various interviews about Dark Blood, Sluizer and River. Hope it sheds light on a few things.

[quote]“It’s my fault, because when I first met George, he more or less told me what he was like as a director, and I only heard what I wanted to hear,” she recalls. “He said that he believed in discipline, that film sets aren’t democracies, and I’m saying, ‘Oh, absolutely.’ George was a bit scared of me. I thought he was foolish in his approach to actors. In my opinion he confused River about his character, constantly telling him how he should play it - angrier, or loonier, or whatever. I don’t like having labels thrown at me by a director.”

[quote]Davis expects her opinions to be taken seriously, expects to be heard. She and Sluizer came to blows right away, over rewrites of the script. “I think he felt that I was an incredible challenge to his control. Which I suppose I was. There are some directors who just want to be inside your head and in that way interpret their character through you, using you almost like a host. As an actor. I just felt I had no space. So I had to create it."

[quote]Davis is also uncomfortable in her own skin—she’s antsy, dissatisfied, and that’s where the tension comes from, and her peculiar modern- or postmodernness. That, and her clarity (or coldness, depending on your opinion of it) and her lack of illusions. Illusions, for example, about her "Dark Blood" costar River Phoenix. Although she cared for Phoenix, she refused to give herself up to the tears and lamentation that greeted his death. “The Monday after River died we all went on the set and we were asked to form a large circle,” she recalls. “George gave his speech about River—it was true what he said, he was a lovely boy. And then Jonathan Pryce asked us to join hands and wish River’s spirit a happy journey as it went across the . . . And I felt very uncomfortable with all that. I didn’t want to hold hands, I don’t believe in spirits passing. But I didn’t have a choice, so I wished that I’d not gone to the studio. I don’t like to be forced to be dishonest. I think it has to be remembered, in the midst of all this, that he was 23 and he made the choice. He thought he was immune, I think. There’s something about stardom and the way it empowers people, the way people give these stars such power.

"...According to an Entertainment Weekly reporter who was inside the Viper Room that night, the shy young actor was not himself from the moment he arrived with an entourage that included The Thing Called Love costar Samantha Mathis. ”He called attention to himself by the way he was weaving through the crowd, unsteady on his feet,” says the reporter. Later, as Phoenix stood near the stage waiting to join Viper co-owner Johnny Depp, his pal Flea of the Red Hot Chili Peppers, and Gibby Haynes of the Butthole Surfers for a boozy blues jam, a bouncer says he noticed Phoenix ”shaking, kind of convulsing.” He was told by an unidentified companion that the actor was fine and was just ”kidding around.” The bouncer then helped him outside the stage door.

Despite other signs of distress—Phoenix was reportedly drinking and had been spotted in the men’s room in convulsions—it was not until the bouncer frantically pushed his way past the stage that clubgoers realized something was very wrong. Outside, Phoenix had collapsed in seizures.

”I’ve never seen anything like it,” says photographer Ron Davis, who was outside the club, and who claims Phoenix’s friends acted dazed and confused despite the star’s dire condition. According to Davis, Mathis and River’s brother Leaf Phoenix argued with the doorman about River’s condition as the actor writhed on the ground. Shortly thereafter, Leaf made his anguished call to 911, pleading for an ambulance and worrying out loud that his brother might have taken Valium. Davis said other patrons, including actress Christina Applegate, also behaved like deer caught in the headlights, unsure of what to do..." (EW, 1993)

Was the EW reporter the one who snuck into the funeral home and took a picture? Or was it a "friend" or family member?

Can I just insert some gallow's humor here? The image of River encountering Judy Davis in the Viper Room bathroom with a syringe or holding a packet of coke and heroine with a smile on her face is absolutely hilarious r149

R156 What was he "drinking"? No alcohol was later found in his system. If he'd been drinking all night, it would have been discovered in the autopsy.

River's fans think Judy Davis is Sante Kimes in real life - LOL. I loved her in this movie, I laughed all the way through.

R157 "Jabby Judy". It was her!

One of River's last photoshoots in summer 1993. I have sometimes wondered if he was battling an illness of some kind that made him turn to drugs, something that was covered up so it wouldn't affect his career.

He looks so ill. I'm not imagining this.

Heroin does that to you R162

R161 I don't know. There are so, many reasons why that could be true but his recurring drug use and strict, vegan diet combined could have had an impact on his health. This is what he looked like in 1989, just a couple of years previous. He was always slim but that's a quick spiral. Of course, drug addiction is enough to make someone waste away like that.

Still, how does such a seasoned drug user make the mistake of taking massive amounts over the lethal limits of drugs? Remember, the lethal limit is not just the bottom for seasoned drug users; it is the utmost amount that a grown man of his size could withstand before death. He consumed 8 times the lethal cocaine limit and 3 times the lethal heroin limit, among other things. Was he, honestly, trying to kill himself?

As mentioned above and in the other thread and on the "Illuminati New World Order Game" thread, there was really unusual astrology an numerology tied to the date of his birthday that year and his death. Hollywood is obsessed with this stuff. Was this significant to someone?

Various people say he was drinking that night, drinking before he went out and seen carrying a drink at "The Viper Room" but no alcohol was found in his system. None. I find that really odd.

River looked his physical best in My Own Private Idaho where he played a narcoleptic rent boy. This was apparently where he was introduced to drugs. Another Judy Davis quote. I don't know about you but a lot of what Judy says seems very sensible, despite her being painted as the wicked witch in the story of this particular fairytale Prince:

[quote]‘River's death came as a complete shock, out of the blue," she says quietly. "We had done five weeks out on location and there were three weeks remaining but they were all the internal dialogue scenes so the film was unsalvageable. And what they had was done in quite difficult conditions so I don’t know how that looked.

[quote]"River was having trouble with the part, and he told me that he was thinking of giving up acting or going off to work in the theatre for a while. Theatre would have been very good for him, because I don’t think he’d ever had proper training as an actor. He’d started off young and worked with very good directors but I don’t know if he’d ever been thrown to the wolves.

[quote]"I’m not sure how well equipped he was to face a part and then transform himself. I think his method was to identify with it and then do whatever was necessary - which is dangerous. That must be a factor in his death."

Idaho was where River was initiated into the drug culture. You can't tell me otherwise.

It's sadly ironic how he had more of a problem consuming animal products than he did synthetic toxins.

R167 I think Judy's take on all of it is sensible and she doesn't play around with BS. I don't think she's some villain but she can be harsh, that's her way but it sounds like some of the best advice he ever got was from her.

When you consider River's childhood, it would make sense that he would bond with transient rentboys and attach an emotional romanticism to street culture; he grew-up ---no matter how hippie-romantic his mom wants to describe it as --- a homeless kid on the streets. The first home his family had was the one he bought in Florida. They stayed in places in California until they were kicked out. The kids sung on the streets in Venezuela for change. He was probably sexually abused as a kid, in the cult or in Hollywood. The danger was that part of him clearly connected and felt like that was his 'tribe", when these guys were damaged and engaged in dangerous, pretty miserable lifestyles. That was what he was retreating to.

"Don't fuck me River! This ain't my first time at the rodeo!"

R170 Judy was ferocious. Brilliant and ferocious. I can almost hear him yelping and running away, the first time he tried to pull his charm act on her and she hissed back.

The plot thickens!

R172 Seriously, though; what kind of seasoned drug user makes such a stupid mistake as he supposedly did? He consumed almost the entire supply a dealer would have on him during a given night in such a short period of time. It doesn't make any sense. It wan't like he overdosed being just over the overdose limit; he had many times of the lethal amount of various drugs in his system.

R172 All the things he was talking about in 1993 is exactly what we are facing, today. "Accidental overdose" my derriere.

There's a whole website devoted to this.

R175 There's a lot of weirdness surrounding his death. The numerology thing is significant if you know how Hollywood works and how paralyzed this community is by star readings.

Justin Beiber better watch his back, is all I'm saying. He's shown as a "fallen angel" at the Comedy Central roast. Then, this in his "Where are you now?" video.

r164, what does this say to you? Did the photographer ask him to pose this way?

Such a tragedy, he died too young.

Why was Keanu's band called "Dogstar"? What was the story behind that? River's birthday was on a significant day for Egyptian astrology tied to the "Dog star" (Ancient Egyptian ritual: Nile River flood season tied to the star found in the Phoenix constellation). He turned 23 on the 23rd, 23 being a very, sacred number to occultists. That year there was a rare, energy event between Sirius A and B.

Hollywood is obsessed with Crowley. Here's some more info:

R178 How about the other one in the shoot, the pose of The Hanged Man?

Two "Rolling Stone" covers, the same year. Compare:

R182

R180 "According to the ancient Egyptians, there was a special occult link between Sirius and the Earth when they were at their closest distance. In other words, more universal light was being reflected from Sirius than at any other time of the year. This link was found to be most powerful during the Dog Days of August (Sirius is known as the Dog Star) which run from July 23 rd to August 23rd. "

August 23rd was River's birthday and he turned 23 that year. 1993 was the year of a rare, energy event involving Sirius.

It's not important whether you or I personally believe in the eoteric mysticism behind all this stuff; was there someone in his life who did? Was it him?

R181 How did he know he was "The Hanged Man"?

R185: if you believe the hype, just about anyone who reaches the top of the entertainment field either believes in it, or is under the thumb of those who do...

R187 But was this self-destruction by way of the power of suggestion or was he taken out?

How can someone who (as even Johnny Depp stated in a later interview) had no intention of killing himself and who was also -- supposedly -- a seasoned drug user, mis-gauge drug intake on the level that he'd consume 3 times and 8 times the lethal limit of a substance, plus lots of other stuff, by accident? He was quite an intelligent person, even if a bit of a risk taker. This makes no sense.

R188: I definitely think it was murder & I definitely think Depp was involved...

Frusciente's ex-wife just upped her demand for alimony, making a load of absurd claims. Hush money?

"Well, to be fair, so did Waters. Shouldn't you be just as critical of him?"

I am. I think he's an idiot, too.

Who assisted Yoko Ono out after identifying John Lennon's body at The Morgue? Keanu's pal, mogul David Geffen. Yes, he could just have been helping out a friend, since he was supposedly Lennon's producer.

"What does this say to you? Did the photographer ask him to pose this way?"

I have no idea why celebrities pose for pictures like that. It's disgusting and creepy.

There's a photo of Robin Williams yanking a tie he's wearing up so it looks like a hangman's noose. I guess he thought it was funny. Kurt Cobain and his bandmates posed for pictures with Cobain merrily frolicking with a handgun. In another picture Cobain is pointing a shotgun towards his mouth. Shortly before he died James Dean visited a funeral parlor owned by a friend of his and posed for pictures laying in a casket. UGH! Why the hell do celebrities do shit like this? I guess it's a sign of serious mental disturbance. Williams and Cobain committed suicide. Dean didn't, but he did seem to have a death wish.

"Anyone who thinks the West Memphis Three are guilty is a fucking moron."

Oh shut up, you asshole. I think Damien Echols, who tortured animals and said he wanted to kill and eat his parents, could very well be capable of anything.

Johnny Depp clearly gets off on being some sort of wannabe angel of death

"Children of God" stuff. Apparently, the sect was politically involved and the provider of child prostitutes to many, powerful people around The World. Here's an excerpt from a book I would have not taken seriously, had the rest of the puzzle not started coming together. In September of that year, the "The Family of Love" ('The children of god' was part of "The Family") compound was raided in Argentina:

Do you think the Children of God were involved in River's death?

R197 I have no idea but I wouldn't put it past them nor the sort of people who who are powerful and want to cover-up that they've used children as prostitutes.

R195 If anyone would illicitly buy the final shots of "Dark Blood", it would be Johnny. He loves collecting that sort of stuff. I wonder if he made an offer to Courtney Love to buy the gun Kurt supposedly shot himself with. he and Marilyn Manson were bidding on the gun Hitler shot himself with, although, that was a tool used to end of an evil man's life not a good one's so i suppose they aren't exactly the same things.

R199 Sorry for the grammatical mess that is my post. It's like alphabet soup but hopefully, you get the idea.

Judy Davis in The New Age (1994) as the Angel of Death!

R201 It's all coming together!

R195 Echols' Aleister Crowley related tattoos:

R203 Dave Navarro replaced John Frusciente:

O.T.O:

O.T.O. US Lodge:

Thelema:

The story of "Dark Blood" is being told in a documentary. Sluizer died last year and this is supposed to be released next Summer. did you remember that Pryce starred alongside Johnny Depp in "Pirates of The Caribbean"? I'd forgotten about that.

"...'Never Give Up' follows both the long lasting battle of Sluizer and his family to get the movie released and 'Dark Blood's' cinematographer Ed Lachman with his search for the mysteriously missing final shots of River Phoenix on film" :

River's performance in DARK BLOOD is so uneven, that reading that Judy Davis quote upthread where she describes Sluizer's questionable methods of directing him (basically telling him how to act) makes perfect sense once you've seen the film. For me, the film isn't all that good, but it has two main reasons for watching it: 1. Judy's performance is exceptional; 2. it was River's final performance (and he is incredible in some of it).

I think Sluizer was a film-maker who probably only had one good film in him; the original of THE VANISHING.

I agree with r209. The irony about this Dark Blood restoration is that it is really Judy Davis' triumph: yet another record of her brilliance as an actress and Judy was in no way associated with any aspect of its recovery.

R180: My ex-boyfriend believed in that Alastair Crowley/Thelema crap. His ex-roommate called him a pathological liar. It doesn't surprise me that only liars and users of hard drugs believe in all this mystical mumbo-jumbo and hoo-ha. All of it is make-believe. It is not real. Anyone who can't tell the difference between fantasy and reality is the sort of gullible dupe who would buy into that crap. People like that are a danger to society.

This is the enigma of Judy: despite these reports of how difficult and insensitive she can be, considering the stage of her career now when all she is offered are quirky character parts and Blanchett is so blatantly ripping off her persona of 20 years ago, a more vainglorious actress in Judy's place would be all over the Dark Blood revival, eager to see herself rise like a phoenix from the ashes (no pun intended). But Judy has said that she has no interest in associating with it. When Louise Brooks' old films were rediscovered she took great pleasure in being part of the process and enjoying the acclaim. Judy wants none of it, though. It must be that Aussie thing somebody mentioned above.

Here is a song by River's band Aleka's Attic, called Across the Way. What do you think? The chorus is catchy!!!

Were there Bohemian Grove connections? Lots of Hollywood and Washington power players have "frolicked" there and there have been many accounts of child sex abuse happening on the grounds. Was "Children of God" part of this and was River a liability? Think about how, many cult and commune kids are now working in Hollywood; cults and isolated Mormon sects.

R209 Sluizer made me think a little of Eric Von Stroheim; he had these grand, complex visions of what he wanted and was probably hard on those who couldn't understand what he was trying to communicate. "The Vanishing" was such an exceptional, suspense horror film that it showed how excellent his vision could be, when he got it right.

"Dark Blood" is a fascinating film. Despite the unevenness you've already mentioned, there is a compelling concept there and brilliance in having this character study and, essentially, parlor room drama unfold in the isolation of the desert. The cast was like a well-tuned, musical ensemble, with the prodigy protege (River), the trained craftmaster (Judy) and artistic stylist (Jonathon) perfectly balancing out the arrangement. The scale is operatic while the performances are intimate. Had River lived, this probably would have been another masterpiece. But as it stands, it's still a fascinating chaos that still manages to come together in a compelling way. It's watchable. On paper, it must have lead lots of people to scratch their heads but somehow, Sluizer made sense of it.

R211 I think too often people write-off these occult related intrigues as ridiculous simply because they personally find the belief system ridiculous, itself.

However, in cases like these, the question is not whether or not the mysticism is legitimate but whether or not it informed and influenced a person to behave in a certain way. Muslims are informed by Islam, Christians informed by Christianity and it's no more crazy to think it's possible an occultists acted on their beliefs in relation to his death. The numerology and occult significance of his name, his birthday, his age and the anagram is not something that would be seen as coincidence by a practitioner of "The Dark Arts".

A little off on a tangent but how eerie was the bathtub image in Kenneth Anger's "Lucifer Rising", when taken in the context of both Whitney Houston and her Daughter's death? Remember Keanu's character "Constantine" performing a ritual on Rachel Weisz's character where he drowns her temporarily to allow her to visit The Underworld?

"The Cat People", "Rosemary's Baby" and more, Hollywood insiders have been sending us messages about this secret "Magick" side of the business for decades.

r216. That's why Kubrick was killed. He was attempting to blow the lid off it all with Eyes Wide Shut.

Celebrities are mere chess pieces. They are assigned ritualistic roles in popular culture. River Phoenix, Princess Diana, however high, however low. Everyone has a part to play the drama that unseen forces stage for us.

R217 I wouldn't put it past The Rothschilds or those who want to please them.

R216 "...In Egyptian culture, death by drowning had long been associated with the mythology of Osirus and conferred special status on the deceased as a 'praised one'..."

Remember the sarcophagi outside Houston's funeral?

R220 The poison ritual to Osirus:

"...Magical healing spells, which were used by Egyptians of all classes, are the source for an important portion of the myth, in which Horus is poisoned or otherwise sickened, and Isis heals him.

The spells identify a sick person with Horus so that he or she can benefit from the goddess's efforts. The spells are known from papyrus copies, which serve as instructions for healing rituals, and from a specialized type of inscribed stone stela called a cippus. People seeking healing poured water over these cippi, an act that was believed to imbue the water with the healing power contained in the text, and then drank the water in hope of curing their ailments.

The theme of an endangered child protected by magic also appears on inscribed ritual wands from the Middle Kingdom, which were made centuries before the more detailed healing spells that specifically connect this theme with the Osiris myth.[18]..."

Below, is a link to information about Ancient Egyptian initiation rituals. River's birthday would, astrologically speaking, have been considered the transition period between Leo and Virgo, a concept celebrated in The Sphinx. An esoteric symbol of great change; the entrance of Horus and the age of Aquarius.

It seems like the astrological significance tied to him would have been overwhelmingly significant to occultists, particularly those following the "mysteries" of Ancient Egypt. The great pyramids perfectly align with the three stars of Orion's belt, pointing to the "Dog Star" Sirius.

R222 Read down to the bottom, the Hopi mythology. River's last movie was "Dark Blood".

Why did River cut his hair and dye it dark black for that last film role? It makes him look so.... eerie. Was his character supposed to be a Native American?

R224 Yes, his character's Father was supposed to have been Hopi Indian. It is significant to the plot, as well. Throughout the film, his character is carving Hopi Kachinas, preparing for the end of The Apocalypse.

In Hopi tradition, The End of The World is not exactly as it is in the Christian Bible. The Blue Star Kachina comes down from Blue Star, "Dog Star" Sirius and evaluates how the people of Earth are living and if they are keeping the Hopi traditions.

This is a fairly typical thing for tragic actor's last films: They are often packed with esoteric meaning.

R225 Hopi Blue Star Kachina prophesy:

R225 More:

R227

I remember this scene in Idaho. Wasn't the Udo Kier character just outside the door touching himself up? Hysterical scene. But River is just so gorgeous in this film, I'm not even talking about physical beauty which has been established. But his whole demeanor is one of calm and kindness in this film, despite being subject to some pretty horrific experiences.

R228 Stage right of Judy, is either "Crow Mother Kachina" -- the one who prepares the stage for initiaiton ceremonies -- or "Blue Star Kachina" itself.

R230

Both River Phoenix and Judy Davis define what Camille Paglia terms as the meaning of 'charisma':

[quote]Charisma is the radiance produced by the interaction of male and female elements in a gifted personality. The charismatic woman has a masculine force and severity. The charismatic man has an entrancing female beauty. Both are hot and cold, glowing with presexual self love.

Those images from Dark Blood footage are entrancing and disturbing. It makes you wonder if everything is pre-destined, doesn't it?

R229 I love how he acted that scene. His character was having fun with the luxury of a bath and he's obviously not in the mood to do his "job". The contrast between River's mild irritation and Keir's exaggerated mannerisms was fantastic.

R233 In Hollywood, maybe it is.

I felt that Keanu was miscast in Idaho. Maybe I just couldn't get the imbecile he played in that time travelling movie out of my head. But I really wanted to believe that River could fall in love with that character, and Keanu just seemed so.... disassociated from what River's character was going through. "I only have sex with guys for money and two guys can't love each other." It's like the biggest 'fuck you'. He excelled at insensitivity and self congratulatory smugness. Would Johnny Depp have been better cast in the role?

R236 It does say something about infatuation, though, doesn't it? We don't always fall in love with the people who deserve it.

R214: one of the more wild rumors about bohemian grove is that each of our last 3 presidents were abused as children at their gatherings. In addition, they were all 3 summoned to the grove in the 80s and informed they would be the last 3 presidents before the 'shift' and their terms would be coordinated as though it was one 24 year administration...

R233 - I do wonder about that sometimes too. In interviews given several months before he died, Heath Ledger talked about dying. Not in a 'I want to die' way but it was something obviously on his mind. And then he passed away.

Those pictures of James Dean posing in the casket are seriously creepy.

Consider River's entire family at the PETA benefit, in indigo blue. River's sister named a child Indigo. I believe that child actually, tragically, passed away:

"Son, Indigo Orion Phoenix-Asch born. Indigo passed away in December 2001 from pneumonia that developed due to severe allergies related to new carpeting, leaving his immune system weak. [November 1999]"

In The Tarot, "World", the card following "Judgement" is associated with the color Indigo.

[quote]That's why Kubrick was killed. He was attempting to blow the lid off it all with Eyes Wide Shut.

I still believe Scientologists killed Philip Seymour Hoffman over [italic]The Master[/italic].

[quote]I still believe Scientologists killed Philip Seymour Hoffman over The Master.

Surely if Scientologists wanted to kill anyone over that film it would have been its writer and director, Paul Thomas Anderson?

R241 All the special actors are kept for these parts. Those with rare talent and depth are chosen to take these roles.

R243 i meant, Hollywood has a respect for these roles above others and it shows in the casting choices.

R240

R239 Why do they expect it so much? Yes, moody, artsy people dwell on mortality but it's odd when a young person who is not terminally ill nor suicidal seems prepared for an imminent death and declares it to those around them. Who makes them feel this way? Who is, figuratively, whispering in their ears?

[post redacted because linking to dailymail.co.uk clearly indicates that the poster is either a troll or an idiot (probably both, honestly.) Our advice is that you just ignore this poster but whatever you do, don't click on any link to this putrid rag.]

Occult Elite:

It was me. I did it. When I said that I wanted off that movie, I meant business.

R249 He asked her what she wanted in her coffee and that was it; it was game on. She started whittling her shank that very day.

Y'all laugh all you want! The mystery is real and I WILL get to the bottom of it.

[quote]The shoot was reportedly an unhappy one, with Phoenix intercepting tensions between Davis and the director, George Sluizer. However, the producer, Stephen Woolley, recalls vividly the actor's excitement about making the picture. "He was very animated and off-the-wall," he says. "And prone to do almost anything - he was skittish like a hyperactive kid. One minute he would be sitting there quietly, the next he'd be jumping up and doing slightly embarrassing things. I remember him kissing Judy Davis's feet at one point."

That must have been what set Judy off, River was obviously getting on her nerves.

R252 Dramatic re-enactment:

R253 Judy and River:

R254 "I love you, Judy!"

It's not that hard to understand what happened. Drugs make people act irrationally, no matter how "seasoned" they are. It sounds to me like he took some drugs and felt iil, so he stupidly took more. Someone high is not going to make the best judgment calls.

It didn't help that his friends waited too long to call for help. They should have called an ambulance the minute he collapsed, not wait around while he is having multiple seizures on the pavement. But again, people drunk or high are not likely to make the best decisions.

Phoenix looked terrible the last year of his life. Nobody really knows how unhappy he might have been. He was probably sexually abused as a child and then worked in Hollywood to support his family. In the sad end he was a 23 year old who did a mistake and paid for it.

Sad tuth is he was closer to being early 90s Lindsay Lohan than to any mythical genius killed by the new world order.

R252 Pardon me if I don't feel pity for Judy. If my only problem would have been beating this man off me, I'd consider myself blessed.

R256 He was a natural talent and as also a cult kid. In most cases I'd write things off in the same way and there's no question his spiral was largely due to his own behavior. But this story has too, many weird twists and turns for that to be it. Something sinister went down that night.

We have a new suspect. Someone whose career directly benefited from River's demise.

[quote]"One night, I was at this Halloween party, and River Phoenix passed me. He was beyond pale - he looked white. Before I got a chance to say hello, he was gone, driving off to the Viper Room, where he fell over and died."

- it's like that movie All About Eve. Leo probably stalked his idol to the club and... well, the rest is history!

Sinister in what way, R258? young or attractive people are offerd drugs in clubs all the time. Dealers knew he was a user and an actor, they probably jumped his group the second they showed up.

The person who gave him the final speed ball was never charged because, I assume, he didn't force River to take the drugs. River made that choice himself on the worse evening he could have and he lost his life for it.

River is doing a Masonic greeting in his photo - the hand tucked into the jacket.

R261 Who directed him to do this and why? Did he know what it meant? He also covered his eye. This was staged to look mysterious. Did he think it was simply art direction or did he know or sense the esoteric meaning was quite important to someone?

R262

Johnny Depp

Leonardo Dicaprio

So, this isn't obvious right? But let's look at the other "one eye concealed" photos...

R266 Yes, this was part of MOPI. Still...

****

Here's a video that Sue Solgot (River's girlfriend in the early 90s down in Gainsville) uploaded. She shares a postcard River sent her. Nice lady.

R269 She is. She seems like a special person.

It's not that I think the powerful puppet-masters at the top necessarily believe actors making these symbols will bring them some power, though some may actually believe it. I think it's a test to see who is ready to comply with their agenda, before being brought professionally closer.

He was a true chameleon, the way he could physically transform himself. Consider the golden innocent aura he had in My Own Private Idaho, to the gaunt androgyny below and finally, the Dark Blood character where he debuted a more masculine look. Like Marilyn Monroe or Garbo, perhaps River's greatest talent was for the camera, and how he was able to embody all these characters.

Those three were not guilty and they spent many years in prison for a crime they did not commit.

I hate Judy Davis and always will.

Geffen was John Lennon's manager. Geffen's best friend Sandy Gallin was Michael Jackson's manager...how did you think they got so fat?

R272 Another poster mentioned how they thought he looked ill, towards the end. That could have been true, it could have also been drugs leaving an impact on him but he also ate, pretty much, only artichokes while filming "Dark Blood". He said he wanted to look like he lived off only stuff his character would find in the desert. Totally method. That's what Judy warned about. Yes, he was a brilliant chameleon. Even in characters that looked alike, he inhabited them with distinct personalities. You couldn't confuse Jimmy Reardon for Danny Pope, even if they both looked like "Tiger beat" era River.

****

****

The idea that Hollywood is full of devious satanists and they're controlling everything is a compelling and attractive notion but the Sony email leaks reveal the truth. Which is that Hollywood is run by morons who don't know their own ass from their elbow and can barely even construct a legible sentence.

R279 I think that would almost be more reason to suspect it. The glamour of this and the worship of intellectualism would make for a big ego trip for people who don't know any better. And as we know, with mass media and advertising, it only takes a couple of brilliant people to effectively manipulate everyone else.

Vanity is all that's needed and what Hollywood lacks in inherent intelligence, it more than makes up in vanity.

"Vanity, working on a weak mind, produces every kind of mischief." - from "Emma", Jane Austen.

R280 I also think there's quite a lot of sensual intelligence in Hollywood, creative instincts, instincts about symbols and imagery that will reach human beings on a primal level and well developed "reptilian" brains (Triune).

R279 Also, bumblers with power who are convinced they are gods and are only surrounded by sycophants in echo chambers are the most dangerous of all. History has been full of mad Kings and Queens.

r282, is that why River became an addict? Because he was trying to escape their mesh, escape from the images and signs?

R283 I think there were a lot of reasons why he became an addict. It drowned out demands from his family, the industry and ghosts from his childhood, among other things.

On the "Family Ties" thread, there's a clip from River's guest starring role when he was young. He's a cute kid and a good, little actor. He has good tone and timing, considering he's totally untrained:

River was going to play Rimbaud. The up and coming Leonardo DiCaprio replaced River, in the event of his death. John Malkovich was going to play Rimaud's lover Verlaine, but did not want to make the film without River and so, the part went to David Thewlis.

R285 "...Eugene, you may be smart but you're not a grown-up..."

If only his parents had that much sense when he was a kid. I feel bad for stage kids, especially ones where their parents just cut them loose in an adult industry and provide few or no boundaries around them.

He always looked smelly and nasty to me.

R286 Leo replaced him in "Basketball Diaries", too. River was set to take that part. The studio was going to finalize it.

R288 Eh, a bath and some soap. Done.

R288 Like I've said before, they didn't call it the "Grunge Era" for nothing. Look at all the stars. Grunginess was cool. Today, the look is back but it's a "clean hippie" revival. Gen Xrs parents were swimming around in filth at Woodstock with their long hair or living on communes. It's all relative.

R291 The phrase "Dirty Hippie" didn't emerge from a vacuum.

I really don't know if River could have successfully evolved into the traditional leading man role that Hollywood seems to value. You know all those bloody awful movies DiCaprio makes with Scorsese, desperately trying to toughen up or eradicate his pretty boy image? Well, I don't think River had any insecurities in his own skin whatsoever and would never have pursued roles like that. If anything, I think if River had decided to stick with acting, he would have sought to become an eccentric character actor type, hiding behind strange disguises and accents.

R293 I agree. I think he would've become a better-looking version of Steve Buscemi.

Yes, this would have been the perfect scenario: had River lived, Joaquin could have pursued the A list leading man roles, supporting the family and allowing River to strike out on his own and evolve into a character actor with no responsibilities or obligations to support them. Joaquin seemed to have more of the 'traditional' leading man way about him.

R293 I think he would've done more oddball, Black comedy like "I love You to Death":

The character River played in Thing Called Love was perhaps his attempt to confront the darker side of himself. The character is insensitive, a bastard really. I have seen many people wonder if River was on drugs during this film. In particular this interview, it's hard to fathom whether he was 'on' something, or if he was just in character. As we have established, he was so clearly a Method actor, beyond a shadow of a doubt. What is quite remarkable to me is, having seen Dark Blood, River seems so much more boyish in his final film. In Thing Called Love, people have said River is unrecognisable to them and I say that is because he was playing a character who was actually older than he was, it was his first role as a traditional leading man and really, it doesn't fit him AT ALL. He was not destined to play roles like this. I have not spoken to one person who enjoyed River's performance in this movie, or found his character in any way sympathetic. And that was so obviously his intention all along, he played his characters right down to the wire (much like Judy Davis does, ironically). :

R279 wins!! You nailed it!

Interesting Judy Davis quote here...

[quote]“My ambition was always tempered by my need to remain sane, and I felt I would be saner if I stayed in my own country. Being in Australia keeps you grounded.”

Maybe if River had been Australian.... then again, Heath Ledger came from there...

Australians sane???

That's rich...

r300, point taken. LOL!

[quote]I think if River had decided to stick with acting, he would have sought to become an eccentric character actor type, hiding behind strange disguises and accents.

Which means he would have Johnny Depp's career. Then where would Johnny Depp be?

R302 Yes. Interesting...

100% agree R302. Been saying that for years. Depp is very suspicious in this whole situation

r302, not so. Johnny is still very much assigned leading man A List roles. What I was implying was that River would have been looking to become the kind of character actor who takes supporting roles in movies.

Johnny Depp is overrated. [italic]Cry-Baby[/italic] was the beginning of the end for John Waters' film career, he was a substandard Sweeney Todd and an even worse Willy Wonka, the [italic]Pirates of the Caribbean[/italic] movies were plagiarized, and he drove Winona Ryder away from [italic]The Godfather Part III[/italic], leaving us at the mercy of the godawful Sofia Coppola who couldn't even die convincingly.

The last John Waters movie I ever saw was "Cry Baby." It sucked so bad I never wanted to see another one.

I enjoyed Pecker with Eddie Furlong while hungover one Saturday morning

At the time of River's death the Globe blamed it all on Keanu.

Depp and Phoenix cornered the same market because they looked the same and they were doing similar movies. One of them had to go. The question is just how. John Frusciante who supposedly gave Phoenix the speedball became a hard core junkie after Phoenix died and Depp actually did a documentary filming Frusciante's downfall. Depp is a sick freak.

I agree that River would've become a character actor - I think those kind of roles suited him better.

R297 - I think it is a generally agreed upon fact that he was on drugs during the making of that movie. It's interesting that he got together with Mathis then - while I in no way blame her for anything whatsoever, she was probably taking her fair share of drugs during that time,

R309 Why? Do you remember what they said?

Had River survived, I like to think that he would have said fuck you to Hollywood forever, relocating to England and become Brett Anderson of Suede's lover/muse.

R313 Would there have been enough room in the relationship for both their fabulous heads of hair? It would have been a constant mop top, fringe flip competition. Keanu eventually shaved his, is all I'm saying.

R314 The conflict would have been real.

Here's a British documentary from 1996 about how River's performance in "Idaho" impacted many gay teens. It's only 20 minutes, but it's very powerful.

r314, they are like flip sides of the same coin. Brett was side a moody, petulant bitch god, he needed somebody like River to come along and knock him on his ass.

Apart from the small fact that Brett Anderson was never gay or bi. He infamously described himself as "a bisexual man who's never had a homosexual experience", which gave everyone a good chuckle at the time. It's almost as laughable as Morrissey's "I'm not gay, I'm a humasexual".

This is like Brett's love letter to River.

R319 River actually used to hang out in Andy Partridge's studio because he was such a fan and Andy being the male version of Judy Davis used to ask the rest of the band why this dirty, homeless-looking kid was always sleeping on their couch. He used to just hang-out in the studio all day when he had time off. He literally lived like a homeless person. It was what he knew, how he grew up.

Bastard. I find that Brits and Australians are like that generally though. To be callous is synonymous with being 'real' in their cultures. But then, maybe that is much more refreshing than being 'fake nice'. But still...

R321: I wouldn't mind it as much, but the ones I have known personally are all hypocritical about it. They can dish it, but can't take it. Hypersensitive if treated the same way & hide behind the 'you aren't sophisticated enough to understand' if called out for bad timing with their cruelty

Perhaps we need to rethink this alternative timeline where River survives, flees to London and becomes Brett's lover. Obviously, the British culture would have been poisonous to him.

R231 We only hear bits and pieces about his time in London but as mentioned before, that's where Dermot Mulroney slammed a British actor/model up against a wall and blamed him for River's drug spiral. Who was this person? London is also where the final shots of "Dark Blood" went missing. Someone intentionally stole them.

R324 The final, mysterious shots might be sitting somewhere in London, right now.

Brett Anderson was touring America with Suede in late 1993 and was heavy into the drug scene. What if he has the Dark Blood footage? Somebody needs to tweet him and ask for it back.

R326 What a tangled web. Blur were also battling with Partridge at that time, recording with him in 1992. That was around when Damon Albarn stole Justine Frischmann away from Brett. There was a lot of competition between Albarn and Anderson, at that time.

Here's Damon with his Blue Star pentangle in Tribeca, recently.

R327 Albarn and many musicians are quite serious about this majick stuff. Albarn even once talked about stumbling upon a Druid site around a tree, in the woods near his house where he grew up and how it impacted him as an artist.

R326 Honestly, you may have just meant that as a joke but the ties that bind in these industries, appear to be closer than many realize.

Brett Anderson in male Vogue OCTOBER 1993, eerily similar to River's Details shoot from that summer:

Now, either the photographer fashioned to shoot to emulate River's pose in dark attire, or Brett was intentionally looking to recreate it.

R331 Contemporaries admire each other, compete with each other, have a cultural conversation going on and photographers that were popular in certain eras have their own styles and tics. But some of this symbolism is just, too obvious and the inspiration for some work is just, too uniform to not at least welcome further scrutiny.

I will now embark on a closer study of Suede's first two albums and see what I uncover in regards to unraveling anything that could allude to River and the questions we have about his demise. It's all rather intriguing to speculate how far this rabbit hole goes.

R248 Now, listen to this song and think of it in context. What is he REALLY singing about?:

R248 Remember The Sirians, Blue Star Sirius, Luciferian Hollywood's and The Music Industry's obsession with aliens and the "sun behind The Sun"? This is from a nevada native (Area 51 lore does imbue culture, there):

R248 Tarot dreams from "Heart". Where does this inspiration come from?

R248 All figurative, right?

Voices, voices, voices. Demons, signing a "deal with The Devil", spirits, "the spirits are coming to take me away". What are these industries doing to these people? Drugging them on DMT and persuading them? Smoke and mirrors shows? What?

Katy Perry, "Wide Awake":

I'm tired of seeing this thread.

R339 Then look away.

Well this has been quite the interesting thread. Seriously. I don't believe much of it, but damn it's fascinating stuff. I just think he OD'ed. For the record, addicts can do SO much more of their drug of choice than "lethal dose" levels. I should know...

This was a good thread until that loonie appeared on here posting about dark symbolism, conspiracies and all that crap. How can someone believed that shit? Another thread ruined by crazy people.

The problem is that all the tinfoil hat stuff has swamped the thread so it's impossible to sustain any kind of discussion about River around the endless theorizing and speculation about Hollywood evil-doers and a coterie of malign fashion photographers making their subjects pose in ways laden with esoteric meaning.

Maybe another RP thread could be created for general discussion and leave this one to the occult stuff.

Eh, just put the idiot on ignore.

Some of you don't get that I'm not personally into the mysticism of "The Dark Arts". I'm not even sure many of the people who go along with it think of it as anything different than "Grimm's Fairy Tales" style inspiration. but here's the thing with power; it only takes one very rich and powerful person with specific beliefs, fixations and passions, to get lots of people going along with things they probably would never have gone along with without that influence.

R341 I also believed he OD'd and while some of the tongue-in-cheek suggestions say otherwise, I think that even if someone did give him the drugs, they were probably under the influence themselves and that image, coolness and edginess is a great motivation in these industries. These were probably just Hollywood peers trying to have fun.

However, the KIND of fun people have can be influenced by trends and interests in the group. Just like in the 1960's, there was a Wiccan/New Age revival in the mainstream in the 1990's. Egyptian symbols and crystals were worn in jewelry, there was a goth-glamour niche thriving much like the vampires, werewolves, zombies and other supernatural subjects, fixations of today. How many psychic, "I see ghosts" or Bigfoot or "Ancient Aliens" shows do you see today? When was the last time you saw a film line-up that didn't have at least one movie about The Supernatural in it?

I'm not saying that Hollywood is full of deeply devout Satanists; I'm saying that mixing drugs in with rituals some people never took seriously, can result in some weird experiences and those experiences shape how people create art. Nothing I've mentioned is what I consider any proof that these "spirits" and "magic" exists, simple that you can pull out trends in The Industry if you pay attention. When multiple players get the same Thelema tattoos, wear pentangles, sing or write about the same themes and experiences, you can't get fully to the bottom of a story by ignoring all of this stuff.

I make a point of saying this because I really mean it: In matters of mystery, it's not whether you or I personally take any of this magick stuff, seriously. Was there a character in this story who could have? Did something meant to be performed for just fun, get out of hand? That's what I question not whether or not any of them have actually conjured-up angels or demons.

Being curious about human motivation does not make you nor I a "believer". Let me repeat that: Just because I see the use of symbols over and over again by certain players in a story, it does not mean I personally believe what they may believe or any of the tenets of a belief system those symbols represent.

When i read about the DMT posting someone else made, everything made a lot, more sense. You take people who have been raised in unconventional circumstances -- and many musicians and Hollywood stars have -- add the "spiritual" drug and the power of suggestion and people can experience powerful things that influence them for life.

No one can deny that psychics and star readers have enormous influence and power in Hollywood and aristocratic circles, where lots of wealthy, powerful people reside. How many times have you heard these people talk about zodiac star signs, life paths, "charmed lives", etc.? Are we to just pretend that these influences have no impact on groups of people submerged in this stuff?

R347 There are people slaughtering their way through The Middle East, right now and blowing themselves up in Western countries because of a belief system. This is not an insignificant consideration.

We can get away from this branch of investigation if you all would like but that doesn't make these influences disappear.

[quote]No one can deny that psychics and star readers have enormous influence and power in Hollywood and aristocratic circles

I think you'll find that most people can and do deny such a thing. I'm sorry but the assertion that it's undeniable is ludicrous.

R343 Also, styles that were developed in academic settings usually wear the style of the artist's "Master"'. When you know what to look for, you can say "oh, this person probably went to this school and took these courses with this professor". You see it in writing, as well. This is nothing new, it's gone back to the dawn of the academic arrangement.

However, in reference to this, it is important to evaluate the motivations, passions and beliefs of the "Master" teaching their pupils. People can't help but be biased and these biases reveal themselves, however slowly, the more individuals express themselves. Untrained artists and talents are more chaotic and harder to put into neat boxes but even they have absorbed pop culture, masterpieces from history, belief systems in their personal lives, etc. and these things will subconsciously influence their work. But you can always tell when raw talent has been pruned and shaped because it will bear the hallmarks of a teacher, unless the artists makes the conscious effort to rebel against it. We can only react to what humans know and what we can imagine.

Photographers are no different.

R349 My personal experience with the heads of industry, Presidents of schools and offspring of prominent families has lead me to a different conclusion.

[quote]My personal experience with the heads of industry, Presidents of schools and offspring of prominent families has lead me to a different conclusion.

In what capacity have you mingled with such an illustrious crowd and how did you become privy to their esoteric beliefs?

R352 Part of it is my life, familial and romantically, friendship and otherwise. The other I have consciously avoided despite seeing strange things go on around me.

R352 This is real. the metaphysics, perhaps not, but these practices -- though not always the ancient, brutal ones -- are real. They are happening. They are happening at the top of New England schools, Wall Street, Washington, Silicon Valley and Hollywood.

R352 "The Hills have eyes". Come on, now. This is Datalounge. Surely, you know that. Don't be naive.

[quote]Part of it is my life, familial and romantically, friendship and otherwise.

So, you're either related to, have dated in the past or been friends with, heads of industry, Presidents of schools and the offspring of prominent families and are privy to those at the top of New England schools, Wall Street, Washington, Silicon Valley and Hollywood and you're personally aware of esoteric practices going on throughout? Your experience is far from common, if so.

R356 I don't sell people out. But don't take it from me, do your own research. Or not. I can understand why you wouldn't want to.

R357 I've been involved with good people. But the line is always easy to cross in some circles. And some people are very innocent about their beliefs.

[quote]I've been involved with good people.

That's good to know.

[quote]And some people are very innocent about their beliefs.

And some people read way too much into things. x

To be clear, I think the world is a scary place because everything is driven by pure chance and the notion that events are being controlled by a coterie of sinister insiders adept at esoteric beliefs and symbolism is a particular kind of innocence.

R360 Some people don't take the chance of birth nor life circumstances to be chance in the way most people think of it, fyi. Their circumstances are just, too good for most to humanly comprehend it without feeling there isn't some existential destiny they're meant to take the reins of.

R360 I'll say this because it's not exposing too much. I had an ex I was in an exclusive and serious relationship with. Everything glamorized in human society he and his family had and still do. One of the first things I ever heard out of him was how he and his family have always known they lead charmed lives and that it was like I was brought to him by these forces. This wasn't just some lovesick declaration: He was completely serious and precise about its meaning. I've actually heard this very thing from other, highly connected people I know and have known, of various levels of intimacy.

When I saw the scene in "Dark Blood", where River's character talks about meditating on kachinas and willing things to happen, it sent a chill down my spine because it was almost exactly what I've heard before. Some people are truly born with everything and it usually creates one of two things; A sort of survivor's guilt sense of "Noblesse Oblige" or megalomania.

River was born with everything but money and that can be the most dangerous position to be in. You're a sitting duck for the ones who were. Read any fairy tale in history and it warns poor, untitled people against that very thing; if you're a beautiful prodigy and poor or unconnected, run, hide and look over your shoulder. They're coming for you. They don't want anything beautiful to pass through this World without their hand on it.

[quote]River was born with everything but money

I think if you had asked River all the things he lacked while growing up I bet money would not have been at the top of the list (or even on the list).

[quote]Read any fairy tale in history...

But fairy tales are stories that were disseminated orally by poor, untitled people and they come from all kinds of basic fears and anxieties. They're also prone to endless tinkering as they've passed through time. Reading any specific meaning into them is probably misguided.

[quote]I'll say this because it's not exposing too much. I had an ex I was in an exclusive and serious relationship with. Everything glamorized in human society he and his family had and still do. One of the first things I ever heard out of him was how he and his family have always known they lead charmed lives and that it was like I was brought to him by these forces.

And were you brought to him by any particular force other than pure chance?

R363 You have willfully misunderstood me.

Drugs is just one of the many leashes used to keep beloved pets near. If you have any addictive weakness or impulsive tendencies and enter these industries, beware. I never have and I wonder why not. That is another unusual circumstance in my life.

R364 If they think you're special, they will find you. The eyes of their social power are everywhere. Perhaps many only want something pure and good to come out of it. I believe that but some only know how to possess. Anything can be magnified with ease of access to resources, human weaknesses, included.

Do you think I'm making this up? I'm only writing it down. Some will read this and know and those who don't, should take it as a warning. But it is everywhere in The Arts and only some people understand what's really going on:

Back to river: Who has those final "Dark Blood" shots?

[quote]Do you think I'm making this up?

No, I don't think you're making anything up, but you haven't related anything outlandish. It's your interpretation of what seems like perfectly everyday things that I don't share, that's all.

[quote]Back to river: Who has those final "Dark Blood" shots?

At this point, I would question if they ever existed.

R367 "...but you haven't related anything outlandish..."

I wouldn't expect you'd believe me if I did and that's fine. Life is often much stranger than fiction. Realize that the unusual is mundane to some people in this World.

R367 Given the filming schedule, I don't see why not. I also believe it didn't even register as significant until after the turn of that night's events. Had River survived, the cinematographer would have simply told himself: "Oh, I left it running."

River was a human version of a gazelle. His standing there and walking into the camera would have probably just been chocked down to typical, River quirky physicality.

[quote]Realize that the unusual is mundane to some people in this World.

I think the mundane is unusual, myself. "How strange it is to be anything at all," as the song goes. Have you seen the film "Society"? I think you'd like it.

[quote]I also believe it didn't even register as significant

If it existed at all, why would it be significant beyond the fact that it's the last known film of River?

R370 "I think the mundane is unusual, myself. 'How strange it is to be anything at all,' as the song goes. Have you seen the film 'Society'? I think you'd like it."

After my own heart. I think exactly that, everyday. What a strange thing, this existence.

"If it existed at all, why would it be significant beyond the fact that it's the last known film of River?"

"Significance" is a man-made thing, obviously. Curiosity is enough to want to see it. As to imparting it with any, possible significance (all things considered) that would require the seeing, wouldn't it?

The Viper at 8852 Sunset Blvd. 8 + 8+ 5 + 2 = 23. "Magic" 23.

R372 Why 23 is significant to numerologists:

Are some of you insinuating that River intended to commit suicide and so staged those final, missing Dark Blood shots of him walking into the darkness on PURPOSE?

So sad- what a waste. Heath Ledger and Phillip SH as well. Substance abuse is a human tragedy, period.

Jesus, enough of this dead twink already!

Am I wrong in assuming that the one behind the constant River Phoenix posts is a lonely gwm approximately 45-55 yrs old with a gut and little else going for him ?

So, about Brett Anderson's connection to River...

Younger Than Springtime

&

Twice As Exciting .......

River Phoenix, an incandescent rose too good for this ill world of ours. River was an animal rights advocate, wore no leather except when a role required it, and a vegan so you know he was good good good.

R376 You're wrong. So, you have no interest in the subject matter. Okay. Not everyone does. Thanks for sharing, though. I hope you brought enough cupcakes to the class for everyone.

R374 It is a possibility. Rather, when some people are depressed they start engaging in highly risky behavior. He might have had a specific intention to do so but an overall death wish. His Mom pressured him to get his family's name change finalized on his berth certificate in February of that year and he also went with her to have his will changed; his Father and Brother were taken out of it.

Who knows why. Maybe he was being old fashioned and thought it was just the women in his family who needed looking out for? However, there was some conflict in his ideology there; he was an old fashioned Christian in some ways but very, socially progressive and he supported Martha Plimpton's Feminism but I think he did so more because he thought it was the polite thing to do. he wasn't this strident, male feminist.

R377 River did meet up with Morrisey, who had released "Suedehead" in 1988 and the band "Suede" was formed in 1989. Morrisey has been called Princess Diana's "Angel of Death", though it's all quite out there as a conspiracy theory. And of course, Princess Diana would have quite an impact on public consciousness since becoming engaged to The Prince in 1981. Oddly enough, River had so, many British connections that I think much of The general Public never realized. I think lots of people were surprised to hear he was hanging out at the studio with XTC quite often in the early 90's.

However, if you want to go down that rabbit hole:

Was he gay?

I love his voice, it's very soft.

R382 - Bisexual, by all accounts (including one of his serious girlfriends).

His original last name was.. interesting...

Do you think he's a bottom or power bottom?

A few months ago, someone posted James Franco's My Own Private River to Youtube.

It's a re-editing of Gus Van Sant's My Own Private Idaho, using mostly unused footage, and focusing on Mike (River Phoenix).

For fans of the movie, it's an absolute revelation. Sexy, funny, sad- really amazing.

Check it out.

Anyone watch this beautiful film? I should have given it its own thread. This one was ruined by the Johnny Depp is evil troll.

R387 Thank you for this!

I'm surprised nobody has discussed his father yet. River looks were very different from the rest of his siblings. I remember old posts speculating that his biological father might have been someone else.

R390 Sometimes I see similarities when he's older. Maybe he just had more "puppy fat" on his face when he was younger?

The father looks just like Joaquin & one of the sisters

R392 I see some of the same teeth/bone structure when his hair was really short in "Dogfight" but I can see why some would question it.

Someone named "Tabby S" posted this weirdly cryptic message on his IMDB page a few days ago:

"More like outta the way for the Bottoms.

Hey John and Arlyn, both your a$$es should be sitting in federal prison right now for molestation and sex trafficking of children. You're quite "lucky" Rain doesn't remember the acts committed against her to testify against you - although I wouldn't have put it past you to somehow "alter" her memory.

Do hypnosis again Joaquin. Quit honoring them. They may have escaped an investigation, but they won't be escaping the justice coming to them on the other side.

River maybe out of the picture, but I'm still here.

And yes, I said it.

Tabby S. "

I just walked in front of the Viper Room yesterday. Weird to imagine the suffering that went on in that same spot.

The very well done "The Murder of River Phoenix" website was taken down, unannounced, a couple of months ago. So were all the videos It was full of information about River's relationship with Michael Stipe, which was reportedly romantic.

This group of friends and family has no luck; Stipe was hanging out with Heath Ledger shortly before he got an "Old Man River" tattoo and then, died from an accidental overdose. Johnny Depp got his part. Joaquin stars in "The Master" with two years before he died from an accidental overdose.

Here's a murder/ritual theory thread on VC:

What do you guys think of the new Viper Room art, featuring a tribute? L.A. Weekly called it "tasteless" but I think it's a hard line for The Viper Room to walk.

On the one hand, they don't want to seem outwardly exploitative but on the other, it's the big white elephant in the room for this club and ignoring that history can be thoughtless, too.

What do you think?

That person sound crazy, R349. He posted on Joaquin's board that he was the victim of sex trafficking by the Bottoms.

R398 Oh, I didn't know that. I wondered if it was some kind of friend of the family or someone who was in the "Children of God" cult with them.

I just checked his latest posts on the board, I don't know anything for sure either, R399. His profile includes prophecies about the Messiah, so I'd say it's safe to assume he/she might not be completely sane.

R400 Oh, my. I don't want to write this person off if they really were a victim of the cult but that's some heavy stuff. Do you think any of it is true? River's dad, John Bottom, was a top leader/minister in The CoG's, its "Archbishop of Venezuela."

I don't think it's true, I think that poster is probably delusional and is attracted to River's story.

I do think the Bottom family were involved with the cult and that River was sexually abused as a child.

Is he still dead?

R403 Yes, it is possible to be interested in someone's film legacy or writing, architecture, etc. and unusual story even though they are no longer with us. Or are you only interested in those you have some possibility of sleeping with? That must make for uncomfortable dynamic with your Grandma.

Never knew he was one of uncle bottom's butt babies

Phoenix family weirdness, continued. There is apparently a custody battle happening between River's Dad and his ex, over his little sister, Hope. Hope actually looks quite a bot like River did as a kid, which might quiet some rumors that John/Juan (they keep changing their names) wasn't River's biological Father:

River looks nothing like his siblings or his 'father'. He was at the product of an affair his mother had before she met Juan. Probably was treated like shit by his step dad because he was another man's son. A very common outcome.

Although River looks more like his mother, he has his father's eyes. In fact his lazy left eye was inherited from his father, who had the same thing.

Does anyone else find the accidental death of singer River Reeves, right before Johnny Depp's Hollywood Vampires are to perform at The Grammys for the first time, an odd coincidence? How many people do you know, named River?

R409

R394 Apparently, this person and someone else who sounds legitimately in the know, claim John Bottom died last July. In one of the stranger exchanges on IMDB, "Tabby S" and "Italian Shoegal" go into a discussion about the likelihood that River was trying to expose the cult and that weirder things went on in the family than many know.

"My father gave me to River because River wanted to have sex with me. I had long, very long, blonde hair and looked like a hippie child.

River named me "Sunflower"" - Tabby S

"John's dead in case you're interested. I really didn't cry for him, neither will you I suppose." - Italian Shoe_gal

"The reports (biographies) say that they "left" the cult and changed their name to Phoenix to denote a change. I was victimized after they presumably "left" the cult. And River was still able to have sex with whoever he wanted with the consent of his parents after they "left" the cult. The CoG were taught to exploit their children for money (as well as sex) and then they used the (big time!) money to cover up their actions and divert prosecution. If people knew the memories that River had to carry with him - their hearts would break. No, I'm sorry, I can't say I would cry for John - in knowing the pain River had to endure. His death date please? And thank you for the info. I believe River wanted to expose the cult and I'm a bit shocked to know that it's still in existence (albeit with a new name "to denote a change"). " -Tabby S.

"...'The reports (biographies) say that they "left" the cult and changed their name to Phoenix to denote a change. I was victimized after they presumably "left" the cult. And River was still able to have sex with whoever he wanted with the consent of his parents after they "left" the cult.'

Unfortunately I'm very much aware there was absolutely no change whatsoever as far as concerns their so called "lifestyle".

'No, I'm sorry, I can't say I would cry for John - in knowing the pain River had to endure. His death date please? And thank you for the info.'

July 2015, cancer. He left behind a toddler daughter named Hope he allegedly tried to take away from her mother multiple times, sometimes helped by one of his older daughters. Apparently he still had his own agenda." - Italian Shoe_gal

Members of "Children of God"? Family friends?

No one thinks it's odd that The Bushes have "Children of God" teens to sing at The White House for Christmas in the early 90's, President Bush (the elder) is on tape kissing them during a television program where they sang to him, River Phoenix starts talking out against Bush's "New World Order" speech and Agenda 21, The Bohemian Grove apparently used child prostitutes from CoG (lots of Yale "Skull & Bones" members are part of The Bohemian Grove club and Bush's great-grandfather (older relative/ancestor?) is the one who supposedly stole Geronimo's bones for S&B), River's Father was a district leader of the cult and River dies accidentally, one month before the "San Martin, December 13, 1993 - Case 81/89 "CAVAZZA, Juan C. and others" trial and members were set to testify from CoG members following a massive raid on the South American offices in September of 1993?

No one finds any of this suspicious?

Nope, no one does

Thanks R387! I've been looking for it since I heard about it. The one showing in my city didn't even go on sale to general public. I think it deserves its own thread.

If R387 doesn't create a thread, I will. I am watching and I want to discuss with others.

This is basically all the good stuff that could have made this movie so much better. take out all the Shakespeare shit and.... damn. So achingly beautiful. I loathe Franco at this point, but bless him for this.

R413 You bastard! President Bush! This was a US President, with obvious involvement in a sex cult conspiracy! A mysterious death of a famous person, right around the time all this was set to go down and the year "Agenda 21" was agreed to! 9/11 happened on GW's watch and now Lil' Jebbie is also running for President? This is happening as Johnny Depp -- the guy who was suspected of being part of the off-ing of River Phoenix and who owned the club at the time -- has another musical debut and another River (of Viola Beach) dies in an accidental way right before it? Depp hangs out with strange occultists and has a close friend who dated another famous Hollywood star, who had also grown-up in "Children of God".

None of this seems concern-worthy to you?

R414 Agreed.

For more on President Bush and "Children of God", read pg. 170 of "The Children of God: A Make Believe Revolution?" by Ruth Wangerin.

R418 I'd post the link but it has too many characters. Look it up on Google books.

I watched Running on Empty for the first time in 25 years recently, and I found River's performance more limp than sensitive, to be honest. He's acting opposite Martha Plimpton, who's very forceful, and he looks distracted and passive next to her. His Idaho performance is better but it still has the same not all there quality about it....fortunately it works for the role. He was cute (although now he looks so young to me I don't really find him sexy anymore) and you empathized with him but looking at his performances now I'm not sure he really had much in the way of technique that would have sustained him past being a beautiful boy. Joaquin is a much better actor than River ever was.

R420 I think he gets the balance right in "Running on Empty". He doesn't overact (Martha Plimpton, as much as I love her, was dangerously close to doing so but the two of them played well off each other) nor does he act angsty in too stylized a way, which was popular in film at the time (See "Pump up The Volume", which does have its charms). He knew when to pull back which is unusual in a young actor.

He played better in some roles than others but he really seemed to be something special. There were plenty of "beautiful boys" in the late 80's, early 90's who's talent consisted of mostly looking beautiful but who hadn't mastered subtlety in acting. It's hard to compare the brothers because River was so young when he died.

Joaquin does seem the more chaotic and unpredictable talent of the two but they both had/have something special.

R416:

I am generally open minded, but I think the bush family is a corrupt family that many people try to turn into some supernatural force of nature, which I do not believe.

If they have so much mystical power, why haven't they had a smoother ride in presidential politics?

1. Bush the elder lost badly in 1980 for the republican nomination

2. Their assassination attempt on Reagan in 1981 failed

3. Bush the elder became the rare sitting president to lose reelection in 1992

4. W needed a scandal to squeak into the presidency in 2000

5. Jeb is a disaster as a candidate at this point

If they had all this mystical power, wouldn't they have a smoother ride and be more effective in hanging onto and implementing power?

Isn't it more likely they are a 1% family who bought their way into the corridors of power and proven inept along the way?

As Donahue used to say:

'I don't know, I'm asking'

R320 Joaquin was also 37/38 when he finished "The Master" and River had attempted a similar level of role (as far as how complicated it is) in "Silent Tongue" in his early 20's. While I wouldn't call it an exceptional performance of his, it's really interesting and a challenge for such a young, untrained actor.

The "heartthrob" roles aren't personally relevant to me, as well, but you can see when someone has unusual talent, which he did. I personally thinking he was trying for more roles that a guy like Steve Buscemi would fill and it seems he was experimenting in some of his roles, to see if he could get away with the same.

Everyone thinks most actors want the A-List type career and while the money is good, the artistic reward is found in a career like Buscemi's; a kaleidoscope of interesting, oddball characters.

R422 I don't think they have "mystical power", necessarily, just a range of shady connections to people who are ethically ambiguous. Which isn't anything but typical for a political family but I do think they have ties to weirder, "blue blood" types than most and that many in the voting public don't realize this.

Ate you not a believer in the theory about Crowley being the true father of Bar?

R425 I have no idea. Her mother Pauline was a strange woman and Crowley was a horndog. I'd be very surprised if the "Sex Majick" rituals in his house were totally devoid of fluid exchanges and I don't believe Pauline went there as a follower, stayed for months holed-up with Crowley and another woman and no-one pierced her veil, so to speak.

R420 I think Louise Brooks had it, too; a screen charisma that's hard to quantify. She was untrained, as well, but could communicate a great deal onscreen with just her eyes. Like anything else, some have a natural talent and can polish it up with training but I don't think everything about artistic expression can be learned.

R421 -- I just thought watching him again after a long time, and less besotted by his looks than I was when I was his age, that there wasn't a lot of energy there really. it could just be the roles... From what I remember he has more presence in Stand By Me and Dogfight, where his characters are more active and less dreamy.

R428 I do see what you mean, he did play roles where he was clearly told by the director to be "mysterious" and that can fall flat to some viewers.

In these family dramas, teen characters are often made explicitly to the measurements of a fangirl type audience -- even in films aimed, overall, at an older audience -- so having to be an interesting character while meeting the boyfriend fantasies of 16 year old girls who then go tell their friends to see the movie, can be a challenge. The end of "Running on Empty" still packs a punch, though. It's clear he may have been thinking of the turmoil in his own family as fuel for the scene.

I still love "Dogfight". His character was challenging because he had to play against his own public persona, beliefs, etc. Lili Taylor was excellent, opposite him, too and made a character who could have just been a caricature, very relate-able and assertive.

Ethan Hawke on River and Philip Seymour Hoffman, in "People":

Keifer Sutherlans, Kevin Polowy interview posted yesterday:

"Stand by Me (1986)

Sutherland didn’t go too Method as the “cheap dimestore hood” Ace Merrill, saying he befriended the four young actors he bullied on screen, especially the “really serious” River Phoenix. Still, Sutherland got a laugh from the time two of his young co-stars accidentally bought pot cookies from a nearby “hippie fair.” (While Sutherland wouldn’t mention them by name, he has previously outed Jerry O'Connell as one of them.)"

Thread opened to discuss My Own Private River.

R365 " Drugs is just one of the many leashes used to keep beloved pets near. If you have any addictive weakness or impulsive tendencies and enter these industries, beware. I never have and I wonder why not. That is another unusual circumstance in my life. If they think you're special, they will find you. The eyes of their social power are everywhere."

This is fascinating to me because it ties in to a recent preoccupation of mine, namely True Blood. Your comment seems to encapsulate the message it was trying to get across, [at least until Ball was pushed out] albeit in a maddeningly obscure and cryptic way. All I could think of while watching TB is 'eyes wide shut'. Like EWS, TB seemed to be trying to reveal..something. Now you may have clarified it for me: it seems beyond all doubt that Bon Temps, 'good times', was a metaphor for Hollywood, an isolated enclave full of extremely vulnerable, sexually charged 'prey' who all possessed 'supernatural' beauty and abilities of some kind. [River was certainly otherworldly and incredibly vulnerable. ] Like Hollywood, Bon Temps was a graveyard of wasted lives, sacrificed to the appetites of a few very powerful [psychic] vampires. All or most of them hooked on 'V', which was a close analog of DMT. There is even a line, spoken by Lafayette, that very nearly quotes you: "If something supernatural wants you, it doesn't wait for you to come to it'.

And please, those who think the West Memphis gang are innocent are letting Hollywood do your thinking for you. Do yourself a favor and check out the actual documents and records in the case.

R433 It's hard to convey the experience of being under a possessive person with connections, wealth and power. The weirdness of these "old" families is almost impossible to communicate in words. It's complex, operatic and spans across generations. These conditions are not healthy for human beings to exist in. It sounds like a dream but if that person is unstable, it's the biggest nightmare you can imagine.

You never know what you're getting into when you're getting into it. I know. I'm here wasting time on DL. I've been single for years and I can't date anyone because every guy I've started seeing has been chased, threatened and run off. My ex can have anyone he wants but the fact that I left is all that matters and he has to win. I knew things were strange the first morning when he had left for a meeting and locked me in. He joked about it later but everything culminated with him trying to run me off the road when I got away. He thinks it's love and he's probably reading this right now but I don't care. The stalking, the harassment, I sometimes have wished he'd just killed me then. I'm nothing special. I can't wait until anything I have totally runs out and he'll hopefully become disinterested and set me free. It's going to be wonderful.

I wish these industry workers would not get anxious about getting older and losing their looks: It's a gift in disguise. You'll come to understand and appreciate it. You'll finally have freedom. They'll finally leave you alone. Don't go rushing back into the jaws of the whale. When you finally get away, run. Run as fast as you can.

Fucking hell, R434. So fucking right.

R435 You, too?

I know who you are R434 & you are officially going on my report

R437 Kiss it, darling.

R436, have we met?

R433 I've looked at all the documentation in the West Memphis Three case and I came to the conclusion that they're all innocent. Anyone who still believes they're guilty is a fucking moron.

R439 I hope not. Steer clear of these people.

They're coming for you, Barbara

R440 Anybody who has looked at the documents in the WM3 case and still thinks they're innocent is an effing moron. Just start with Miskelly's numerous, NOT one single confession to the police, but the SEVERAL spontaneous confessions and proceed to Echol's psychiatric records, which are QUITE the eye opener. Death threats, fire starting, violent physical attacks, blood drinking,...diagnosis: Psychotic. Though not mentioned in the Exhibit 500 documents, the murder investigation turned up several reports of Damien Echols’s cruelty to animals and fascination with animal skulls. Shall I tell you what Damien once did to a black Great Dane? A poor cat, involving gasoline and a bottle rocket? You really don't want to know, but it is instructive...

R443:

How do you explain away the record of lies, abuse, drug addiction, and means/motive/opportunity of the step father?

You bitches can't derail this thread with your idiocy.

My River Story: Once in the 80's I traveled to Florida for Spring Break w/a friend. We wanted to check out the university in Gainesville, so we cruised through the town. WE passed some weird little store and I noticed the dude standing on the curb in front of the place looked like River, whose acting I always liked. My friend didn't know WTF I was talking about. We drove back and it sure was River. He had long hair and looked angry and kind of disheveled. He kind of stared back at me and he looked irritated.

We left. I found out later his family owned some health food store or whatever in Gainesville, and he lived their part-time. Whoppdee fucking doo, I see celebrities all the time so I didn't split my cock. My cuz is a celebrity. Yes, you know him. No, I will never tell. He's actually a fucking asshole.

That's all I got.

Now continue with your derailment conversation.

R444 Which step father? The WM3 team, much like their ever-changing alibis, also have revolving suspects. Recently, the focus has switched from John Mark Byers was the stepfather of Chris Byers, to Terry Hobbs was step father to Steven Branch.

R445 Convo about a trio of murderers WM3, whom Depp--he of the missing business partner--- supports unconditionally, is apropos in a thread about River Phoenix, who died at Depps' club under circumstances that have never been satisfactorily explained.

R446:

I meant Hobbs, the one that Peter Jackson went after with his documentary.

R445 was awful cunty just so she could share the single most boring piece of 'gossip' in the history of the DL

R448 "Disheveled" sounds so sexy. I don't really think it's a revelation, that there was this one time he maybe, kinda sorta didn't look manically thrilled to be recognized. But it is nice to hear personal anecdotes.

R447 Evidence 'against' Hobbs: Two of the witnesses against Hobbs are convicted felons, two are convicted rapists, and one of Hobbs' hairs was found on a shoe string used to tie up Michael Moore, a frequent visitor to the Hobbs household.

R445 well, at least you don't have a chip on your shoulder :EYEROLL:

River's timeless Oscar style by GQ:

I've been following a thread on lipstick alley (obstensibly about Casey Affleck separation from wife Summer Phoenix) that discussed Rivers life. It's amazing that more than 20 years later people are still stanning for this guy. But the more you read about his life the more you see the seediness of his life. His mother was a grifter, "dad" was an alchoholic and they allowed their kids to be sexually abused. This guy basically confirmed that he was ran through by the age of 10 with his parents consent. No formal education (he could read and write though). His mother had him and his siblings out on the street "entertaining" at an early age so no doubt by the time they hit Hollywood his ass was being traded for roles. People that really knew about him always reference his childhood and stuff he went through. And for whatever reason, he was a druggie and lied about living a healthy lifestlyle. He was a dumb, pimped out, drugged out mess. But he was magic in front of the camera.

R453 ...and around the time he was at the height of his fame, The Bushes had "The Children of God" singing at The White House and Bush The Elder is on camera shown kissing some of them, during a visit down to their Florida branch.

He wasn't dumb. Uneducated and naive about many things but not dumb. He knew that George W. Bush pushing a "New World Order" and "Agenda 21" was a bad idea and he said it in interviews. Not exactly the position anyone would expect from a clueless hippy who would just go along to get along.

Here we are in our modern societies, decades later, after "The Patriot Act", people getting arrested in Britain for things they typed on "Twitter", with that company actually reporting to a German leader when her citizens talk less than favorably about The Migrant Crisis. People are talking about bio-hacking like it's a good thing and a US President and his Attorney General are making the rounds on talk shows, trying to convince a private company to give them the hacking hints they need to break the encryption protecting private phones and spy on that business' customers. All part of the usurpation of sovereignty and consolidation of global power, that was kicked-off with "Agenda 21".

R454 correction, the elder George Bush not younger was obviously involved with kicking-off Agenda 21.

Natalie Merchant, March 11, 2016 at The Beacon Theatre. She still has that great, big gloomy voice, like she should be singing medieval prayers in a cloistered abbey.

I don't know if Damien Echols is a child murderer, but he is truly a despicable human being; an arsonist, a torturer of animals. He wrote about how he wanted to kill and eat the flesh of his parents. He admitted to tasting blood. There's a grotesque video of him on YouTube where he says about the blood drinking accusations: "I would't say I drank blood...I licked." And he laps his tongue out to demonstrate. To this day, he is still fascinated with the occult. He lives in Salem, Massachusetts with his brain dead wife (Salem is where all those witches were hanged, you know). He has a soulless, dead look in his eyes that is truly chilling. His groupies try to explain that by saying being on death row gave him the dead eyes, but his eyes always looked like that. And celebrities like Johnny Depp and Eddie Vedder suck up to this revolting creep!

As for the West Memphis Three...well, they were never exonerated. They took an Alford plea, that is, they pleaded guilty without making an admission of guilt. And Damien Echols has become a kind of quasi-celebrity with pals like Johnny Depp. Pretty sickening, isn't it?

So true, R457. Depp is an incredible weirdo who I think admires Echols because he thinks Echols got away with it.

R459 He does look like River in some of the photos. The arched eyebrows and high cheekbones work for him.

R460 The looks are good. My biggest complaint about '90s revival fashion is that it often looks too contrived and precious, nowadays. From my understanding, the point of it was similar to the "found art" argument: Just mix together what's available, with random things you found and love from thrift shops, corner shops, etc. Of course, in MOPI, the point was that the character of Mike was a transient person and was picking up pieces of clothing from where he went, what someone else bought him, etc.

Gus even said when River showed-up on set with these quirky black boots, he thought they weren't going to work because they seemed so uncool but he realized later that it was about challenging fantasy (in this case, someone else's sanitized sexual fantasy) and showing what reality looks like. The problem with the movie could have been about casting this mainstream, teen "heartthrob" and making it about people having sex with him, as opposed to focusing on the complexity of the characters, their story, the film's ambiance and imagery.

Phoenix was a naturally elegant man and had a "fuck all" attitude about dressing, so he could pull off some quirky looks because he wasn't trying too hard, if at all. That's the only way you can pull-off '90's retro fashion. You sincerely can't try too hard, think about it too much or it looks ridiculous and obvious.

I knew this first half of the interview was out there but couldn't find it. Someone put it in a fan video. Watch up until the 2 minute mark. The rest is just fangirl glitter hearts and stars and love tributes. I can't find the video alone, anywhere else.

Not that I have anything against glittery fan vids but the interview at the beginning is very significant as it shows at this point in 1988, he was clearly not regularly using. He's alert, introspective, articulate, even a little sassy and queeny. But those who claim he'd been using drugs for years, regularly as far back as "Stand by Me", would have to admit that he was clean and clear on this day.

The drink was spiked...

I'm nowwatching Silent Tongue. I think it was the last film he completed. It's really creepy.

R463 Is that film worth watching? I have my doubts about it. Should I watch it?

Is that the one opposite Linda Purl?

I liked it a lot actually.

Judy Davis was mean to River, everyone knows that.

R466 No one ever talks about "Silent Tongue" but it's such an interesting movie. I love those kinds of films, sort of like one room parlor films where it's purely about character development and psychological dissection but in the expanse of desolation. The isolation of wide, open spaces.

I think it was his first with Dermot Mulroney. Dermot later talked about crossing a British, male model and actor in London, who he claims got River hooked on smack. After River died, Dermot grabbed this guy, slammed him against a wall and asked him if he was happy with himself. Who was it?

So many weird twists and turns of this story.

Dermot Mulroney was/is so hot.

I don't know if this was posted yet but it's adorable. Oscar nom acceptance:

so true r446, it seemed like for awhile they were all talking about how Byers was DEFINITELY the murderer, then they were telling me it was 100% Hobbs and if you don't believe it you're an idiot and some sort of Christian bigot

The creep factor of the Viper Room is off the charts.

"I've looked at all the documentation in the West Memphis Three case and I came to the conclusion that they're all innocent. Anyone who still believes they're guilty is a fucking moron"

You sound like a moron yourself. I don't know about the other two retards, but Damien Echols is as crazy as they come. I can see him doing just about anything. He and Johnny Depp are good buddies. They even have matching tattoos. Which shows you how crazy Johnny Depp is.

R474 I feel like some of the people who have been working for him have something to hold over his head. While I don't think he personally offed River, there were shady mobster-esque connections between Johnny and some patrons of his club at the time. I sincerely think someone loaded River's drink up with drugs, more so than he realized. Maybe he was foolish to trust his druggie friends and I'm sure he did battle with drug addiction for part of his life but the autopsy report was just, too odd.

Then you take the raid on the "Children of God" headquarters that his Father ran, his talking out about it earlier in the year and I think someone felt they needed to take him out. Remember, "The Children of God" even sang for President George Bush in the 90's and he spoke about it in video footage. "Children of God" was allegedly producing child prostitutes to "The Bohemian Grove" club that he and many other powerful figures were a part of.

Hmm...