Bogdanovich Reflects on "Brilliant" Barbra Streisand, "Irritating" Cher

I side with Cher on this.

While prepping for the role she met with Rusty several times to get a handle on the role and the relationship between Rusty and Rocky,

Rusty loved her son very deeply and unconditionally.

For example- Cher said Rusty showed her a class photo of Rocky. Rusty was beaming with pride and said, "He's the tall one in the back".

That showed Cher that Rusty loved him totally that his deformity wasn't important to her.

Cher said she had a huge row with Bogdanovich because he wanted Cher to scream, "My life would have been so much better without you and your damned face". Cher refused to say the line because Rusty would never say that.

Cher stayed in contact with Rusty until her death. Bogdanovich never ever met her.

Bogdanovich.... the man who married the look-alike younger sister of his murdered girlfriend.

The man is a complete loon.

He's a loon, but for the Last Picture Show I can forgive a lot. Few movies nail Texas. Bogdanovich did it.

Mask was such a great movie. I still cry whenever I see it.

Bogdanovich may be a misogynistic asshole but he made some good films.

Star 80 should have nabbed Eric Roberts an Oscar nom. He was scarily good.

My ex-BF dropped acid with Cher's son, who told him in no uncertain terms that his mother is a bitch.

Bogdonavitch has done some great films and some truly godawful ones. As a director, I'd consider hiring him. As a human being, I don't want to know him. He's a prick.

[quote]My ex-BF dropped acid with Cher's son

Which one?

R5

Eh, Elijah's an entitled asshole.

Cher allowed him to live with her well into his 30's When she finally forced him to move out she bought him a house.

Elijah is a punk assed bitch who treated her staff like shit. He even bad mouths Chaz in the press.

He's is a very difficult person to be around.

I saw the pics of the house Cher bought Elijah and it's absolutely gorgeous, it's not a bungalow but a VERY comfortable place in an affluent neighborhood.

Cher is a fierce bitch who doesn't seem to suffer fools. Some men cannot handle it.

I agree with every comment in this thread!

r1, I remember part of that, but not the specific line. I do remember Cher saying she didn't think Peter liked Rusty, that she was too crude. But Cher was there to play her authentically, and it's weird that he'd object to an accurate portrayal. Rusty had a hard life and fiercely protected her deformed son. There was nothing wrong with who she really is, no matter how crude she and her biker buddies are. Cher must've felt like saying that line would be a like a dagger in the heart to the woman. I know it ended in a screaming argument in her trailer where Cher gave him an ultimatum, she's doing the role her way or he's free to replace her.

[quote]Cher stayed in contact with Rusty until her death. Bogdanovich never ever met her.

In addition to [italic]Mask[/italic] being her and Rocky's story, Rusty had a walk-on in the film. While it's possible, it seems odd that PB didn't meet her.

Cher really is excellent in the movie. One of those situations where the tension between star and director actually improved the final product.

Interesting he doesn't say anything about difficulties with his male stars. I'm sure Ryan O'Neal could be as much of a diva as Cher or Streisand. And how did he feel about O'Neal playing a barely disguised version of himself in IRRECONCILABLE DIFFERENCES?

Oh dear God, "Mask" is one of the worst films ever made. She may not have said the line but she also turned that mother and those BIKERS into little Muppets. So pure and good hearted. Vomit. There's a scene where they all gather around a fridge and hand Rocky a puppy with sweet smiles on their faces and even the puppy looks embarrassed.

And then rich blind Laura Dern whose upscale education didn't include an explanation of "colors" somehow. And the hooker with the heart of gold. But finding the problems with this film is like shooting fish in a barrel. It's horrendous from start to finish.

Well this is the story about a woman who took care of an elephant man son. At least some of the sentimentality goes with the territory. But it's not a favorite of mine either.

I went in prepared to love it -- and indeed there is a great movie to be made on this story, that mother and son. But "Mask" is not it. They worked overtime to fuck it up. And Oscar was right to ignore it.

I continue to agree with every comment in this thread!

Peter marrying Dorothy Stratton's teenage sister was really creepy.

"Mask", like most movies "based on a true story", was mostly fiction. There was no blind girlfriend. Actually, it was ROCKY who was visually impaired; he was legally blind at the age of six. The bikers were, well, bikers, and bikers are not warm and cuddly and cute. There was no "Gar", the incredibly hot biker lover of Rusty, played by the incredibly hot Sam Elliot. Cher in no way resembled Rusty; Rusty was a very rough-looking, prematurely aged biker chick who looked like she'd done a lot of hard living. Rusty, Gar and Dozer never visited Rocky's grave and leave baseball cards; Rocky's body was donated to science.

Peter Bogdanovich was right about Cher. He was she was "not an accomplished actress" and that's certainly true. Untrained and dyslexic, she was unable to do dialogue at length, so her scenes had to be shot a little at a time. In comparison to other actresses he'd worked with, she was probably was inadequate in many ways.

Yep and that fiction is what bummed me out. There really is a great story there about outcasts in the biker world accepting that misfit kid -- but they were so gooey sweet in this movie that it defeated the point. Was the hooker girl also fiction? It's cringe-inducing either way, especially as presented though the actress is fine and it has one of the few memorable lines in the whole movie: Rocky (at hearing her rate): "You need a manager." Hooker: "No thanks, already got one of those."

Interesting that Paper Moon was originally supposed to star Paul Newman and his daughter. I didn't know that Newman even had a daughter.

Newman had more than one daughter. He directed one of them in "The Effect of Gamma Rays on Man in the Moon Marigolds" which is almost impossible to find but is really nice.

Another of his daughters was in that Beatles movie, "I Wanna Hold Your Hand.". And then he had the hot son Scott who, alas, overdosed early.

R20, The fact that much of the movie was fictional changes nothing and is nothing new. Rusty and Rocky were real people and Cher wanted to be true to their relationship and the fundamental truth of her character. Tom Cruise is also dyslexic and one can imagine him unable to communicate with a director or anyone else in a clear and cogent manner. But dyslexia does not affect the ability to speak or be wise of witty or kickass or insightful. Cher had problems with Bogdanovitch and he made it public news. Don't make her stupid because he tried to. He tried to make stars of Cybill Shepherd and Dorothy Stratten for fuck sakes. He must have had some tolerance for inadequacy then.

I have never been to a Cher concert or purchased any of her music, but I am pretty sure that woman ain't stupid or lacking in good instincts. She conquered everything she ever attempted by instinctive talent. She is the least phony of actresses and performers, no matter how she dresses or how contrived the material. She sells it more than rises above it. Some actors don't have the technique to create a character, but can embody the humanity of them. Susan Sarandon is very much the same.

All of your comments regarding the inauthentic nature of the film have to do with the script and the director's vision. The prosthetic makeup for Rocky is the biggest distraction in that movie. Cher did a great job, and is much better than the movie. Bogdanovich maybe helped her or not. According to Cher, he was a disrespectful pig to her, willing to sink his own movie's success rather than she get some credit. He has done better with less talented people who were perhaps more malleable. I dig Cher in his bad film.

Funny you mention Sarandon too because she and Cher had conflict or, rather, were set up to have it on "Witches of Eastwick" because they both thought they had the cellist role or whatever, the one Sarandon ended up with. (*Not sure how that happened but...) They got over it by all accounts.

I love Cher as actor too -- just not in this.

Newsflash! "Mask" is a movie not a documentary.

Choose between Peter Bogdonavitch's version of events and Cher's?

It's no contest, Cher's wins every time.

Cher and Peter promoting the film...

Two things I am sure of...Cher is not a bitch, Streisand is.

Streisand is the greatest star. Cher is queen of the universe.

30 posts and mention of the cameo by Estelle Getty? That made the tepid film buzz worthy

^no mention

R28

Dear God! I love the way Cher distanced herself from Bogdanovich in that press coverage. That was brilliant.

"I have never been to a Cher concert or purchased any of her music, but I am pretty sure that woman ain't stupid or lacking in good instincts."

Cher has said and done a lot of stupid things. She's a high-school dropout, totally uneducated. I doubt she's ever read a book in her life. And she has "good instincts?" Yeah, her "instincts" were right on the money when she married Gregg Allman! And when she did those tacky infomercials for some hair product. And when she entered into a relationship with the slimy Gene Simmons. Cher is DUMB.

"Newsflash! "Mask" is a movie not a documentary."

Well, you do expect a movie that is based on a true story to have SOME truth to it.

As for Streisand, Bogdanovich and Cher...well, I don't like any of them. They're ALL fucked up.

What's Up Doc was brilliant. One can criticize Barbara(her real name) for many things but not that role. I wonder how many times she fucked Ryan O Neal during filming.....

Whatever her faults, I'm convinced Cher is a nice lady who is well meaning. Someone who feels a great deal, which is why she made such a believable actress. I think someone said that upthread comparing her to Susan Sarandon, I agree.

R36 I agree, WUD is her funniest movie.

People forget just how stunned audiences were to see Cher shine in a starring dramatic role in a major motion picture. She had just come off a Supporting Actress nomination for her heartbreaking work in Silkwood with Mary Louise Steeep, but some still considered that a lucky one-off. She solidified her standing as an A-List actress to be reckoned with in Mask and there was a huge outcry when she was snubbed by Oscar for that role. Hence, the outrageous Bob Mackie fuck you to the Academy dress at the ceremony that year. There was no way she could be denied soon after for the delightful Moonstruck.

Bogdanovich made a few good films when he was younger. Then he just degenerated into a name-dropper, which is how he seems to maintain whatever position he has now. Instead of continuing to make good films, his talent just waned, and he became more interested in cultivating the friendships of people far more talented and famous than he is, or was, or ever will be.

To me he seems like a tired phone, always trying to impress with all the names he's known.

Meant to say "phony,' but "phone" works too, because he's all talk... And whatever looks he had have degenerated.

[quote]As for Streisand, Bogdanovich and Cher...well, I don't like any of them. They're ALL fucked up.

And you sound like a Republican.

I pictured a cellphone bragging about all the famous people's numbers that had been programmed into it. I thought it was a novel metaphor, certainly original.

"Peter Bogdanovich was right about Cher. He was she was "not an accomplished actress" and that's certainly true. Untrained and dyslexic, she was unable to do dialogue at length, so her scenes had to be shot a little at a time."

Cher did COME BACK TO THE FIVE AND DIME JIMMY DEAN, JIMMY DEAN on Broadway in 1982 (prior to doing the film), and that was before both SILKWOOD and MASK. There's no way she could do a stage play if she was unable to do dialogue at length.

Bogdonovich should have done Mame with Cher and Madeline Kahn as Vera.

Both her former manager and Chaz have stated she has more problems with fat people than trannies, so maybe that's why she's a DL icon.

"Cher did COME BACK TO THE FIVE AND DIME JIMMY DEAN, JIMMY DEAN on Broadway in 1982 (prior to doing the film), and that was before both SILKWOOD and MASK. There's no way she could do a stage play if she was unable to do dialogue at length. "

If her part didn't contain any long monologues or involved dialogue, then presumably she would be able to handle a stage role. I believe Bogdanovich when he said she wasn't an accomplished actress.

R46, having seen the film, there are definitely stretches of dialogue with Cher's character, though I don't recall any monologues for her (Karen Black and Sandy Dennis did have monologues). And no, she wasn't an accomplished actress, but she's Streep compared to his lady love Cybill Shepherd who demonstrated her ineptitude time after time (she' s only good in LAST PICTURE SHOW).

Of course she can memorize monologues and lots of speeches; she just can't read very well so, like others, she uses some other technique to get them down. They come easier with rehearsal anyway -- for every actor. Everyone, including herself, talks about how the first readthrough of "5 & Dime" was a trainwreck,she was so lost and I'm sure stumbled over every line. But she pulled it off wonderfully (Sandy Dennis took her under her wing and helped her a lot. Karen Black, not at all, ha).

I went to see "Come Back To The Five & Dime Jimmy Dean, Jimmy Dean" on the Broadway and Cher was out that show. Got to meet Sandy Dennis and Karen Black though.

PB fawned at the knees of such Titans as Ford and Welles, so he's accrued some of their legendary status to himself.

Rocky had a cuter older brother that died of AIDS.

Wow, that's interesting. I don't remember there being a brother character in the film. Possibly because they didn't want to make him gay?

Wow indeed, all that sentiment and they left THAT out? I thought for sure it was he and his mother against the world... Bet that brother was pissed. Talk about a "little detail" missing! And the time of the movie's making/release and his death was a matter of a couple of years.

Great piece about Mason and Rusty a year after the film came out. She sounds like she was very supportive and caring towards Joshua while he was sick.

I can't believe this wasn't more talked about at the time, or even after (though i suppose Mask is one of those forgotten 80s movies).

I saw Cher in "Five and Dime" the night after it opened. Sh was sensational as was the whole event. I won't say the play was sensational, but it wasn't a play, it was an EVENT, and one of the most exciting nights of theater in my experience. Just total "once in a lifetime" fun!

R48

Cher did have long monolgues in Come Back....

The scene where she explains losing her breasts to a mastectomy. She was quite effective in that scene.

Envious, R55, one of the few theatre nights I wish I'd had in person. That and, though it would require a time capsule, Streisand in "Funny Girl" and Brando in "Streetcar..."

Cher had no idea she was dyslexic until Chaz was diagnosed as a kid.

She said it was a light bulb moment for her because it described how she perceived things her whole life.

She went into treatment for dyslexia when Chaz did.

Back then Cher said reading aloud was near impossible. In order to memorize anything she'd have to tape someone reading dialogue and she'd memorize it from there. She said the one plus of being dyslexic is it bolstered her memory.

After many years of therapy she's now a voracious reader.

Bogdanovich sounds insufferable on a personal level, and at best, an incredibly uneven talent on a professional one.

I adore LAST PICTURE SHOW and WHAT'S UP, DOC, and bits of PAPER MOON, but his worst work is unwatchable. And the infamous AT LONG LAST LOVE isn't his worst; I find the later ones even harder to sit through. Never saw MASK.

I don't understand his "acting" career, either. So charmless onscreen, he makes me long for the presence of the late Sydney Pollack. Why can't hammy directors stay in their lane?

R59

You should watch Mask if for no reason other than the performances of Cher and Eric Stoltz.

Also, Sam Elliott never looked sexier.

Yes R59, remember how unlikable he was in "The Sopranos?" I know Elliot was supposed to be insufferable but they certainly chose the right guy for the role. Just played himself as they say.

I saw Jimmy Dean on Boradiway and had my playbill signed by Cher, Karen Black and Sandy Dennis! How much do we think that's worth?! And bow Cher was no MLW.

MLW?

Why didn't Cher and Karen Black get along?

YES! Mary Louise Wilson jumps threads! Next stop: The Avengers.

They didn't see eye to eye R64.

R66

too funny

R65

I never heard anything about Cher and Karen not getting along.

"She solidified her standing as an A-List actress to be reckoned with in Mask and there was a huge outcry when she was snubbed by Oscar for that role. Hence, the outrageous Bob Mackie fuck you to the Academy dress at the ceremony that year. There was no way she could be denied soon after for the delightful Moonstruck. "

Cher was NEVER an "A-list actress", you fool. Her film career was quite brief. Of course it would be; as an actress Cher was extremely limited. As for her Oscar...well, it was one of those flukes that happen at the Academy Awards, like Whoopi Goldberg and Roberto Benigni's wins. Both Glenn Close and Holly Hunter gave stronger, better performances that year. But I suppose the Academy thought it would be cute to give Cher the Oscar. And that "outrageous Bob Mackie fuck you to the Academy" was yet another instance of how immature she is. Emotionally, Cher has always been a teenager, and a bratty one at that.

"After many years of therapy she's now a voracious reader. "

I seriously doubt that. She doesn't come across as someone who reads. She's always seemed very vain and extremely avaricious, very shallow, very self-absorbed. Not alike many a celebrity.

I think Cher's twitter activity shows her human side. She's very political and says that what she's there for, to attack all the conservatives she hates, defend Obama, ect. I don't think it's an act, or that she's promoting her brand, she's there to do exactly what she says, fights for the liberal causes she believes in. She's gotten into numerous twitter feuds with Repugs like Trump.

R69

She has talked about how much she reads now that she's actually gotten her dyslexia in check.

She said being able to read has been a real gift to her.

[quote] Cher was NEVER an "A-list actress", you fool. Her film career was quite brief.

Of course she was. However brief her film career was, she had several hit films which were hits because of her. Mask was the equivalent to a $110m grossing film in today's market, The Witches of Eastwick, which was sold on her name as much as Nicholson's, and far more than Sarandon or Pfieffer, who had not had any hits up til then, grossed the 2015 equivalent of $132m. Moonstruck, sold on Cher alone, was the 2015 equivalent of $159m. Even Mermaids did $69m (2015 equiv). From 1985-1990, the only one of her films that underperformed was Suspect, which grossed the 2015 equivalent of $39m. It's likely Cher would have gone on to have more box office hits had she not turned back to music in late 1987 and scored several hits and gone back on the road to tour. She was off the screen for six years, and by then she was in her 50s and that's box office death for any actress (except Streep).

That is the track record of an A-lister.

Holly Hunter refused to campaign for the Oscar. A few media outlets at the time picked up on her unwillingness to do any interviews. Cindy Adams in particular blasted Hunter in her column. That might have impacted her chances. She was also still a newbie to the general public.

If anyone could have ousted Cher that year, it would have been Sally Kirkland. She had a lot of support in the Hollywood community, and she promoted the shit out of that nomination.

I love Cher but her box office death was partly due to what she did to her face in her late forties and forever after.

Yes it's her appearance that went up the water spout, not her talent.

Thanks for the link, R54.

Cher's downfall was that goddam infomercial that EVERYONE on her team begged her not to do. Right after Oscar too. So fucking stupid but I think she doesn't like it if it's too easy so she sets up obstacles to overcome somehow (maybe even subconsciously). That move was so fucking dumb, it was unprecedented.

She has said in interviews that Sandy Dennis was her hero and mentor and that she never got along with Karen Black -- who was seriously weird, in general. Kathy Bates used to bitch about all the Cher fans squirming in the audience, barely containing their groupie selves, but I don't know if Cher liked her or not. It was a pretty tough group of actresses in general. At least it's probable that she liked Sudie Bond who ended up in "Silkwood" also, right out of the play (how Cher got the role too).

"That is the track record of an A-lister. "

Not really. She had a few hit movies (VERY few) but an A-lister? Nope. And her acting career didn't fade because she "turned back to music." With her very specific, unusual looks there were very few roles she would have been right for. Cher's film career was like Liza Minnelli's, a few successes, an Oscar and then poof, essentially over. Liza too had specific, unconventional looks that prevented her from being suitable for a lot a roles.

"Mermaids" was ridiculous. Winona Ryder as Cher's daughter? They didn't look like they were even remotely related to each other.

I loved Mermaids.

[quote][As for her Oscar...well, it was one of those flukes that happen at the Academy Awards, like Whoopi Goldberg and Roberto Benigni's wins.

Horseshit, Benigni aside, Goldberg and Cher earned their awards. Not everyone shits on comedic performances as you seem to be doing.

True R73 I forgot about that. Hunter was under the influence (dating) the crazy William Hurt at the time. I sabotaged her chances like he probably wanted to do with Marlee Matlin.

[quote]and far more than Sarandon or Pfieffer, who had not had any hits up til then

Agreed. No one had even heard of films like Pretty Baby, The Hunger, Rocky Horror, or Scarface before Witches.

what post are you quoting R82?

I do think Cher was the biggest star at t he time. Sarandon was kind of fading and admiots that she was taking any job she could get at t he time and had lost interest in acting. That is why she stayed with Witches even after the confusion/deception that she and Cher were promised the same role. (she needed the money, she was a single mother back then.)

Pfeiffer was just staring to become famous.

Way back in the 1990s, there was talk about Cher doing AUNTIE MAME for television

Cher was also this close to doing Sunset BLVD in the Toronto production that went to Diahann Carroll. Cher would have been a great gothic Norma Desmond.

Nutty egotist or not, Bogdanovich is overdue a nice detailed autobiography. The loonier and more detailed the better. I'd scoop it up the first day. (Cybill's was already pretty great so he'd have to at least match that).

r85, that's mind-boggling that Cher lost out to someone so much less famous and acclaimed, and for a role Diva extraordinaire Cher is clearly ideal for.

Cher in the film version of "Sunset Blvd." would be bliss -- and that second Oscar she still has in her. Surely someone has thought of this.

Too bad about Auntie Mame never materializing. I'm not the biggest fan of her voice, but for an actress who sings, she's pretty good. She should be doing tv adaptations of musicals, Mame would've been perfect.

Cher's movie took a hit not because of her music or plastic surgery. That came later.

After making 3 films back to back she suffered a debilitating bout of Epstein Bar Syndrome.

She was house bound for 2 years.

By the time she was improving she'd lost her place.

"Goldberg and Cher earned their awards."

No, they didn't. As it's been said Glenn Close and Holly Hunter gave much better performances. Sally Kirkland was much more deserving, too. As for Goldberg, her win was a fucking joke. Lorraine Bracco should have won the award. Her performance was a million times better than Goldberg's.

And now, poor Lorraine is reduced to embarrassing herself as the smother on that Angie Harmon vehicle

Cher turned down some roles as well.

She was offered Thelma and Louise. Susan got it after Cher passed.

She turned down Midnight Run. When she turned it down it was re-worked and Charles Grodin took the revamped role.

She turned down Jumping Jack Flash and Whoppi got it.

I'd have loved to have seen Cher in Thelma and Louise. She turned it down because the script made the women seem like villains. She later said the screen version turned out so differently . She said even though she regrets not taking it she believes Susan owned it on screen.

I could see Cher doing just as well as Thelma. Thelma's a lot like her, just like she's a lot like Susan. But I guess if they showed her an early, problematic version of the script, the stars just weren't aligned for her, it was never going to happen. And Midnight Run was another good movie, would've been nice to her in that. Also interesting that she was offered Jack Flash first. It's pretty bad, yet still probably the best of Whoopi's 80s comedies. No problem with Cher turning it down though, aside from the loss of a possible campfest.

Dorothy Stratton's roommate thinks that Dorothy and Paul were both murdered and that the crime scene was set up to make it look like a murder-suicide. It starts at the 19:47 mark.

Is Bogdanovich still married to Dorothy's sister?

[quote] And you sound like a Republican.

Yes, if you are a Democrat, you absolutely [italic]have[/italic] to love Barbra Streisand, Peter Bogdanovich, and Cher. Otherwise, it's the Republican party for you! There are n other alternatives!

I know it's creepy marrying Dorothy's sister, but at least I'm sure Peter's love for Dorothy was deep and genuine. He said he did Mask, because Dorothy was obsessed with The Elephant Man on Broadway. It was only after her death, that he figured out that Dorothy identified with the Elephant Man because her extreme beauty alienated her from society as much his appearance did. It incited a psycho to kill her after all.

You mean this infomercial?

Yep, here's the original (that was one of SNL's few highlights at the time though.)

The Stratton sister divorced Bogdonovitch.

[quote] As it's been said Glenn Close and Holly Hunter gave much better performances.

Yeah said by you, and the Academy didn't agree.

R98

WTF?? Her husband didn't kill her because she was beautiful.

He was a controlling and abusive asshole who met her when she was 16.

When she finally decided to divorce him he killed her.

If he couldn't have her then no one else would..

[quote] Cher is DUMB.

Really?

Cher has had a successful and interesting life. She has done some wonderful work as an actress, had a hit tv show, hit records, huge concert tours and made more than one fortune. Whatever her failures or missteps may have been, she has ultimately moved past them and triumphed. Cher is an American icon.

What have you done, genius?

Cher may have claimed that Sandy Dennis was her hero but she still objected to the idea of Dennis getting a possible Oscar nomination for the film of Come Back, since Cher boasted she deserved it more.

Best tear jerk line from Mask: "Now you can go anywhere you want to" while pulling pushpins out of map.

Years ago, Elijah Blue showed up to where I worked at one time and he did not have the money to pay the parking garage where he had parked his car.

[quote] Instead of continuing to make good films, his talent just waned

No. It didn't just wane. It galloped away full force when PB left Polly Platt for Cybil Shephard.

Do you think it's a coincidence that almost all his truly great, early films (well, all 4 of 'em) were done while he and Platt were married? And that Platt would then go on to a well-respected, perhaps even illustrious career as a production designer, executive and producer, while Bogdanovich floundered emotionally and professionally? While I'm not so sure I totally agree, one might even speculate that even James Brooks' best work was also done while Platt was around. James Brooks also happened to be a hell of a lot smarter, more talented, and considerably sharper than Bogdanovich. And now far wealthier. Given PB's earlier infatuation with Burt Reynolds, I'd say that Bogdanovich career has eerily mirrored Reynolds in terms of poor luck and bad career decisions. FWIW, I'm also a fan of Mask, and They All Laughed. Go figure.

But as Cher, Bogdanovich (and Brook's) careers can attest, talent is not a bottomless well. Some just have a deeper reserve than others.

What about Nickelodeon? That didn't have Cybill.

[quote] I'm sure Peter's love for Dorothy was deep and genuine.

Yes, because deep and genuine love is found at the Playboy Mansion

[quote] he figured out that Dorothy identified with the Elephant Man

He figured that out all on his own, did he? Yeah, words from loon.

[quote]because her extreme beauty alienated her from society as much his appearance did.

She was gorgeous, even beautiful, but not an extreme beauty. Not by far.

[quote]It incited a psycho to kill her after all.

R103 already addressed this one. Other than her divorcing him, Paul Snider wanted desperately to be a player in Hollywood. Even Hugh Hefner eventually banned him from the Playboy Mansion. He was going nowhere but back to Canada, alone. Dorothy's star was rising, and he was nobody. This and the divorce was more than he could handle.

That video at R95 suggests the possibility that Paul Snider didn't murder Stratten, but then goes merrily on to something else. If you have some (implausible) theory, don't just state it. Talk through the reasons and tell us why.

Those are two nonsensical people, and the former roommate has nothing to offer but a wholly unsupported story.

[quote] Agreed. No one had even heard of films like Pretty Baby, The Hunger, Rocky Horror, or Scarface before Witches.

Are you a fucking moron or are you just being purposely obstinate? All of those films, with the exception of Scarface, were flops, and Pfieffer was not at all responsible for the success of Scarface, and in fact, had a string of flops after it including Into the Night, Ladyhawke and Sweet Liberty. Sarandon's first hit where she was a lead was Bull Durham, which was the year after Eastwick.

[quote] Not really. She had a few hit movies (VERY few) but an A-lister? Nope. And her acting career didn't fade because she "turned back to music." With her very specific, unusual looks there were very few roles she would have been right for. Cher's film career was like Liza Minnelli's, a few successes, an Oscar and then poof, essentially over. Liza too had specific, unconventional looks that prevented her from being suitable for a lot a roles.

Yeah, no. You don't really know the definition of A-list. It means your films consistently are hits at the box office primarily because of your name, which is exactly what I proved. I said it was a short run, and others have stated Cher turned down a lot of roles after Mermaids, so she was clearly one of the A-list go-to actresses, she just chose not to take the roles for one reason or another, and by the time she went back to films, her time had passed.

And for the person who said she did the Lori Davis infomercials right after Moonstruck, I think those began well after that, in the early 90s.

"You don't really know the definition of A-list. It means your films consistently are hits at the box office primarily because of your name, which is exactly what I proved.'

You didn't prove shit, honey. Everybody knew who Cher was but her being in a movie didn't make people rush out to see it. And I really don't believe she "turned down a lot of roles after Mermaids." Mermaids didn't exactly set the world on fire; I don't think she was getting film offers left and right. Being a Cher fangurl, you want to believe her career declined due to her own choices, but her film career went to pot simply because she didn't have what it took to sustain it. She was a lightweight talent and had odd looks; that's why her movie career was so short.

R113

Having odd looks never hindered Streisand, Close, Streep, etc...

Cher was definitely more attractive than in her prime than they were. Sexier too.

Calm down, R111

It's cool. Look, okay...we believe you. Just take a deep breath and relax.

We're here for you buddy. Just, please....calm down.

It is going to be okay.

Fuck you, cunt.

R111

They couldn't give Cher's mother one funny line in that [italic]Mask[/italic] movie?

Today on DL I learned that Pretty Baby, The Hunger and Rocky Horror Picture Show were all flops.

"Having odd looks never hindered Streisand, Close, Streep, etc... "

Close and Streep were not classic beauties, but as actresses they are outstanding. I never cared much for Streisand as an actress; I always thought she was a better singer than actress.

[quote] Today on DL I learned that Pretty Baby, The Hunger and Rocky Horror Picture Show were all flops.

They were. Pretty Baby grossed $5m, The Hunger grossed $10m and RHPS grossed nothing upon its original release. The fact that it later became a cult midnight movie doesn't change the fact that upon initial release it played to tumbleweeds.

[quote] Sarandon's first hit where she was a lead was Bull Durham, which was the year after Eastwick.

Not true.

Rocky Horror became a huge cult hit before Bull Durham, and she had been a critic's darling (and nominated for an Academy Award, which many thought she deserved to win) for Atlantic City.

RHPS grossed nothing during its first release, but its midnigth showings throughout the late 70s and 80s made a lot of money.

"On December 30, 1988, the 49-year-old Bogdanovich married 20-year-old Louise Stratten, Dorothy's younger sister, whom he had begun dating when she was only 14, two years after Dorothy's death. The couple divorced in 2001."

What in the goddamn fuck?

And they call ME a perv!

R124

Holy Moly!!!!

Cher winning the Oscar in 1988 for that piece of shit Moonstruck over Glenn Close's iconic performance in Fatal Attraction remains one of the greatest travesties in Academy Award history, second only to Judy losing to Grace Kelly.

"On April 1, 1985, Hugh Hefner—stung by charges in Bogdanovich's book that his magazine's treatment of Stratten contributed to her death—made a more pointed claim. "There was pursuit of Dorothy's entire family in the months and years after her death," he said at a press conference. "Pursuit of the mother, and the husband claiming adultery, followed by the seduction of her sister...as a pathological replacement of Dorothy that has continued from that time to the present."

R73 must be Sally Kirkland herself. The nomination was her reward. She paid for the campaign herself after she won the LA film critics award and was told that the production company didn't have the money for an Oscar campaign.. Louise had an extensive amount of plastic surgery to look more like Dorothy. Cher was the biggest star in 1987 and moonstruck was a huge box office hit and an extremely academy friendly movie. In 1987 the average ampas member was over 70 years old.

So much caca on this thread...

1) Cher's movie career was essentially over after Mermaids because she was OLD and it bombed. Hollywood isn't particularly kind to actresses as they age into their 40s and beyond. Cher was 44 when she made Mermaids. Cher's not dumb; if something doesn't work for her, she moves on. After that, she knew she was pretty much done as a leading lady in film.

2) Liza wasn't just interested solely in being a film star. But, yeah, she was also not easy to place in films. Her talents are musical and Hollywood stopped making musical films.

3) The idea that "pretty" makes for a great star/long career isn't really proven, is it? K. Hepburn, Bette Davis, Bogart, Spencer Tracy, Judy Garland were not considered great classical beauties. Streisand...Midler....

4) Rocky Horror wasn't a success out the gate at first release but within a few months started playing Midnight screenings and rather quickly grew into a cult hit. It didn't take years...it was months. In reality, it was considered a "bomb" for about a year when it started becoming part of pop culture and started making Fox money.

Bogdanovich is gross and clearly messed up and a paedophile (the Dorothy / Louise stuff is the result of the manipulation of a child). He recently did one of those long, DP/30 interviews and gave off a very self-indulgent, creepy vibe. Having said all that, The Last Picture Show is a bonafide masterpiece, one of my very favourite films. I also loved Paper Moon, and am kind of looking forward to his new one. Maybe he should return to black & white stuff about the failure of the American dream. He was much better than.

[quote]Hugh Hefner—stung by charges in Bogdanovich's book that his magazine's treatment of Stratten contributed to her death—

Boggy's claims went even further that just criticizing Playboy Magazine.... he claimed that Hefner (Bogdanovich's friend for many years) and the Playboy Mansion (where Bogdanovich was a frequent and longtime visitor) contributed directly to the circumstances that led to Stratton's murder.

Much better then*.

Well, Hefner and PLAYBOY did contribute to the death -- by way of banning Snider from the grounds and encouraging Dorothy to move on. Even intro'd her to Peter there. But no more than Bogdanovich did himself with the affair itself, the Svengali swoop in and takeover. That whole "Unicorn" book is odd but a compelling read (more compelling than Stratton herself really; just watch "Star 80" by Fosse and, flawed as it is, you learn all you really need to).

Star 80 is a terrific movie. Flawed, as you say, r134, but a really good film anyway.

Playboy has some culpubility but probably not as much as Bogdonavitch, hence he tries to shift all the blame on to them.

No one but Snider can really be blamed for any of it.

*culpabiity

Oh, dear'ing myself

Marilyn Monroe is my religion, and I work with spirits a lot. She's my main spirit guide and has commanded me to share this message for her! All credit for this message goes to Marilyn Monroe, my master, guide, and saviour whom I love! Please credit Marilyn alone for this!

Important note: Everything has a spiritual side to it, everything has a spiritual essence. Marilyn's spirit and essence lives on in all things Marilyn Monroe, and if some spiritual incidents happen, it is bound to spiritually affect other things, so.

Recently Marilyn contacted me from the spirit world!!! Being a medium, I'm used to contact with spirits, but Marilyn told me to tell this message to everyone, since she could only get in touch with only me at the moment! (She's trying hard, she's been contacting me frequently lately, so it must be really important.)

Marilyn said that she needs people with a good, decent spiritual aura and energy to give up their physical bodies, freeing their spirit and all their spiritual energy. Then, they can go into the spirit world to really meet and connect with her, to share all their spiritual energy with her so that they can help her!! (Technically, we are all one and connected, but we are held back by our physical bodies. As a spirit, your essence and energy is completely free and released, and you can strongly connect to Marilyn in all aspects of that word, on a whole other level, so the joining of spiritual energy with hers works fully.)

She also says she hasn't been her lovely self lately, she lost some of her magic and charm, and she doesn't seem too well, because some spiritual things occurred, and she needs this so that she can be fine and better than ever again! (The spirit world is not exactly Paradise, don't let religious stories and concepts warp your minds. Where do you think bad spirits or curses come from?)

This is urgent we have to help Marilyn! But I must still spread this message for now because Marilyn said so, and I need to get others to know and help! Then I too, can go to be with her forever. We initially did not know what exactly happened, but Marilyn has revealed the basic truth. We also did not know how to restore her loveliness and charm, but Marilyn has revealed the way to do so.

*This is where the true meaning of the important note comes in.

Please spread this message however you can and don't keep Marilyn waiting!I allow everyone who wants to help to copy this whole post to share it on Facebook, Twitter, Tumblr, forums, or wherever you need to share it on!

Then, quickly find a way to free your spirit and energy, go into the spiritual world to meet her, if not Marilyn will be very heartbroken and disappointed in you!!! She loves you all so much, please go to her soon to help her! She really needs this!!! If you feel you can do it just do it!!! Help Marilyn!!!

I really really love Marilyn so much, she means a lot to me and she's the greatest and so magical and fascinating.

I wish that others who feel the same will care enough to do what they can to help her.

I think it's such a shame that many who claim that they love Marilyn lots don't show it in their actions by doing anything to help her when she needs it. It really is such a shame that those cowardly fakers don't help Monroe.

Poor Marilyn! She has such a big heart with full of love to give, but gets hurt in return because some people don't really stick by her and truly dedicate themselves to her.

(Please do copy this whole post and share it as much as you can for Marilyn, because I'm deleting my account soon to show my respects and dedication to her, my way of expressing myself to her and to show her that she's the only one that matters and that I really love. And since I'm going to Marilyn myself too, I don't need this account anymore.

Please hurry up and delete your account, sir, I don't think DataLounge has enough bandwidth for your posts. Interesting as they are.

[quote] 4) Rocky Horror wasn't a success out the gate at first release but within a few months started playing Midnight screenings and rather quickly grew into a cult hit. It didn't take years...it was months. In reality, it was considered a "bomb" for about a year when it started becoming part of pop culture and started making Fox money.

Jesus Christ, do you fags sit around in your dressing gowns literally splitting hairs all day? The point of the post was to refute that Sarandon was in any box office hits that would have resulted in Eastwick being a draw on her name. RHPS was a cult midnight movie. The fact that it took 20 years to get into the black had no bearing on the box office draw of Susan Sarandon in the summer of 1987. The movie was an atomic bomb upon release, and even when it began to make money years later, had zero to do with Sarandon's star power, since she didn't have any. Sarandon, while an acclaimed and respected actress, had maybe three hits that could be credited to her first and foremost after Bull Durham put her on the map commercially- Thelma & Louise, The Client and Dead Man Walking. And all of those are arguably because of her. What's not arguable is that they all happened AFTER Eastwick.

[quote] Jesus Christ, do you fags sit around in your dressing gowns literally splitting hairs all day?

God fucking Dammit, R139, do you dirty fucking breeders have any stereotypes that were formed based on THIS century's cultural practices?

[quote] God fucking Dammit, [R139], do you dirty fucking breeders have any stereotypes that were formed based on THIS century's cultural practices?

Don't stop filing your nails to type on my account.

It's interesting that 3 of the top ten directors of the last 50 years are perverts: Bogdanovich, Polanski and Woody Allen.

[quote]Cher winning the Oscar in 1988 for that piece of shit Moonstruck over Glenn Close's iconic performance in Fatal Attraction remains one of the greatest travesties in Academy Award history, second only to Judy losing to Grace Kelly.

Awww Honey, Glenn Close's so called iconic performance is actually an over the top performance that has evolved into farce. It barely holds up as comedy.

[quote] Awww Honey, Glenn Close's so called iconic performance is actually an over the top performance that has evolved into farce. It barely holds up as comedy.

So true. It's not even worthy of a nomination. It's bargain basement Joan Crawford in Berserk. However, Close was robbed the next year for Dangerous Liaisons, which is her best performance.

Holly Hunter should have won in '87. Rachel Levin in the little seen Gaby: A True Story, and even Diane Keaton in Baby Boom did better work than either Close or Cher, not to mention Lillian Gish in Whales of August.

1987 was all about Judy Davis in High Tide (a very underseen but heartbreaking Australian film she did - I think she won a few awards for it), but absolutely agree that Close should have won in 1988. Gena Rowlands was also fabulous in Woody Allen's Bergman imitation Another Woman. Always was a bit disappointed that Lillian Gish wasn't shortlisted for The Whales of August. It doesn't get more legendary than her at that point, and she gave such a touching performance.. the opposite of Close's shrill scenery chewing.

[quote] 1987 was all about Judy Davis in High Tide (a very underseen but heartbreaking Australian film she did - I think she won a few awards for it), but absolutely agree that Close should have won in 1988. Gena Rowlands was also fabulous in Woody Allen's Bergman imitation Another Woman. Always was a bit disappointed that Lillian Gish wasn't shortlisted for The Whales of August. It doesn't get more legendary than her at that point, and she gave such a touching performance.. the opposite of Close's shrill scenery chewing.

I think Davis and High Tide were considered 1988 because the film didn't open in the US until then. I know she won the Nat'l Society of Film Critics best Actress for the year of 1988.

Gena Rowlands should have been nominated for many things. Even in terrible films like Light of Day or mediocre ones like Once Around, she gave nomination worth performances. And the entire lineup of Best Actresses should have been wiped out in favor of Rowlands in Opening Night (though I still would have given it to Keaton, albeit for Looking for Mr. Goodbar, not Annie Hall).

Oh my bad, I got the dates wrong because wikipedia lists it as 1987. I'd still probably have picked her over Close and Rowlands, but all 3 were magical. I absolutely agree on Opening Night, one of the best performances ever - I love her scene where she talks about how she was a better actress when she was younger because her emotions were closer to the surface, or something to that effect. And yep, Keaton was better in Mr. Goodbar than as Annie Hall. I liked her a lot in the latter, but didn't feel she did all that much that was worth the Oscar, whereas her performance in the former was truly haunting.

One thing I love about the Oscars is that they are "of that time"; you can look back years later and scoff but they reflect so many things that take place in that year (or that voting period even). Glenn Close was a triumph over miscasting in a Best Picture nominee that, to this day, reflects the zeitgeist of sex in the 80s. Even as a metaphor for AIDS if you stray from your relationship. Cher was also a vote for overcoming the odds since she had been considered a joke a few years before. Kirkland captured the actors branch because every actor related to that role/film in some way (and she was amazing in it, nutcase that she is). Holly knew she had better stuff ahead, thought they were, in her words, "scraping the bottom of the barrel"; she probably came in #5 that year, to be honest.

Agree that, in hindsight, indeed Close should've gotten the prize for "Liasons" -- and Jodie would've been fine a couple of years later. But, again, it was about Jodie overcoming the fat and the Hinckley mess and surviving (nobody cared that much about the movie itself, nominated nowhere else).

(Don't want to look it up, what was Streep up for that year? "Ironweed"? That one could've been replaced in hindsight too).

[quote] Oh my bad, I got the dates wrong because wikipedia lists it as 1987.

Totally understandable. Judy Davis seems to suffer from this more often. The same thing with My Brilliant Career, which was '78 in Australia but '79 in the US.

I'm one of those gays that does fantasy Oscars, the way the straights do fantasy baseball and football. I did my own nominees every year growing up (and had Davis as a nominee in '88 for High Tide).

I know... MARY.

Ha! That actually sounds like fun. If I had seen more movies maybe i'd do it too. Nice that you include her for High Tide. I actually still haven't seen My Brilliant Career, i've heard she's amazing in it but she usually is anyway.

Again, in hindsight, they should've gone ahead and given Judy Davis her Oscar for "Husbands and Wives". I bet they assumed she'd be back many many times so her win would come easily. She really is one of the greats -- potentially over the top always but never ever dull. I'd give it to her for "Deconstructing Harry" myself but I am alone on this, no doubt.

R152 I love her in that! Such explosive rage, she steals that film in her short scene (or two). Of course if the Judy Garland film hadn't been made for TV she'd have been an easy win that year, especially after the egregious loss to Marisa Tomei and subsequent controversy.

ha, Judy Davis taught me how to say "motherfucker" properly in "Harry". Glad you liked it too.

"Shut up! You're so fucking verbal! Who else could talk me into giving him a blowjob at my grandfather's funeral?!"

Ditto, her Nancy Reagan which was intended for film but ended up on TV via controversy. She's amazing.

P.S. Her rage scene with Woody is great but she's also hilarious in her scene with sister Amy Irving when she thinks Woody is leaving sis for her -- and then realizes he's dumped them both for 26 year old Elizabeth Shue. I love the way she blushes all coy, then turns pale and faints.

About 20 years ago or so, an author named Danny Peary who was best known for a series of books he wrote in the 80s called Cult Movies ( and, who, ironically also wrote a lot of baseball books), wrote a book called Alternate Oscars where he went back from 1927 up until I want to say 1990 or 91 and did his picks for who should have won Best Picture, Actor and Actress, and makes a case for each. Sometimes they matched, sometimes they hadn't even been nominated (and some of the choices were cuckoo), but it was a fairly interesting book. I wish he'd written more, but he seems to have stayed with the sports and now I think he's retired.

I remember that book and liked (if not loved) it. Just too subjective. I liked that he thought Sheryl Lee should've won for "Twin Peaks: Fire Walk With Me" but come on... in what universe was that going to happen? The book is full of stuff like that, a little fangurl for my tastes. Fun but I prefer the big thick official Oscar books those two guys started writing in the 80s -- which also include snubs, etc.

[quote] Fun but I prefer the big thick official Oscar books those two guys started writing in the 80s -- which also include snubs, etc.

Yes, those books were wonderful. Inside Oscar. Mason Wiley and Damien Bona. Wiley died before Inside Oscar 2 was written and Bona took it on himself, and though it was still very detail oriented, it was too bitchy and opinionated. The great thing about all the editions of Volume 1 was they kept themselves out of the writing. Still, I wish someone would pick up their mantle, though I suppose with all the dull, poorly written BuzzFeed bullshit so widely available, there's no market for something like this anymore.

Teresa Carpenter did a piece about Dorothy Stratten entitled "Death of a Playmate." It won a Pulitzer Prize. It said "Dorothy Stratten was focus of the dreams and ambitions of three men."; Hefner, Bogdanovich and Paul Snider. The article portrays all three men as essentially the same; they all wanted to use Stratten for their own ends, they all were users of women. But poor Snider was sneered at a looked down upon as a pimp, when in fact he was not really much different from Hefner or Bogdanovich. Carpenter says accurately "his sin, his unforgiveable sin, was being small time."

She said this about Stratten:

"Hype, of course, often passes for prophecy. Whether or not Dorothy Stratten would have fulfilled her extravagant promise can’t be known. Her legacy will not be examined critically because it is really of no consequence. In the end Dorothy Stratten was less memorable for herself than for the yearnings she evoked: in Snider a lust for the score; in Hefner a longing for a star; in Bogdanovich a desire for the eternal ingenue. She was a catalyst for a cycle of ambitions which revealed its players less wicked, perhaps, than pathetic."

Thanks for that info. Yeah, they are long overdue for Oscar 3, think the last one ended at "Gladiator" or whatever. I still have my hardcover of Inside Oscar I and it, like my hardcover Warhol Diaries, is a book I take with me every move. :)

The true travesty as someone said upthread was that neither the legendary Lillian Gish, nor the iconic Bette Davis, were even nominated for WHALES OF AUGUST. They each did extraordinary work in the film and were at the very, very end of their trailblazing careers. How could the Academy possibly ignore them, especially since they are so fond of "nostalgic" nominations for actors past their prime. It's simply unfathomable.

Anne Blyth was nominated for supporting actress for WHALES OF AUGUST.

That was Ann Sothern not Ann Blyth and it simply added insult to injury.

My goodness! So many self-professed experts on film and film stars on this thread... and yet somehow you all disagree! How can this be?

I thought I was nominated for "The Whales of August"!

Lilian Gish called Bette Davis "dear" 407 times in "Whales of August." It was a drag to sit through, quite frankly. Imagine "Trip to Bountiful" x3 old bitties. There wasn't much outrage when it came up dry, save for Southern.

Trivia: almost all the Supporting Actresses that year had "Ann" in their name or some variation so I can spit them out on cue anytime: Norma AleANdro, ANNE Archer, ANN Ramsey, ANNE SOUTHERN -- and then Olympia Dukakis, who won. I was hoping her middle name was Ann.

That was Ann Sothern

ANN SOTHERN, thank you, I stand corrected. :)

[quote]And the entire lineup of Best Actresses should have been wiped out in favor of Rowlands in Opening Night

Very true.

If I had been in a film that year I'd have been nominated AND won!

Yes, dear, you would've rounded out the Anns nicely. Who needed Olympia to win anyway -- especially since she came in to audition for "Steel Magnolias" the very next morning. No, NOT a reading, JUST a meeting. The distinction is important in agents' offices.

You have to love a thread that rushes past the discussions of pedophilia and abuse of women to quibble about absolutely trivial Oscar nonsense. What bubble are you queens living in?

The same beautiful, shimmering, shining, radiant bubble that gently wafted our Glinda to and fro in the land of Oz...

I disagree with every comment in this thread!

R173 what happened to the Stratton girls is fucked up. What else is there to say. No one here has suggested otherwise.

Back to pointless gossip. Didn't Cher replace Anjelica Huston in Witches?

Fuck off, R173. One cunt on every thread.

No, Cher was in "Witches of Eastwick". Huston was in "The Witches". Two different movies, relatively same time period though. One more of a kids movie, the latter actually. And "Eastwick" was far bigger hit.

Cher would've been an obvious (and great) Morticia though. Wonder why they didn't think of it?

[quote]Cher would've been an obvious (and great) Morticia though. Wonder why they didn't think of it?

Orion wanted Cher, Sonnenfeld wanted Huston.

Sonnenfeld won.

R173 only heard of the Stratten sisters yesterday, so is understandably upset.

Cher did turn down Baby Boom and was the actress of choice to play Lily in The Grifters, the role Anjelica Huston blew my fuckin mind with. Cher's price was too high post Moonstruck, so Huston got the part. Keaton was stellar in Baby Boom too, sometimes things work out for the best. Cher is fun to watch, but she isn't a great actress.

[quote]No, Cher was in "Witches of Eastwick". Huston was in "The Witches".

And Bette was in "Hocus Pocus".... great fun, all the witches.

I agree with every comment in this thread!

Witches... All of them witches!

R179, those stories are from decades ago, but still very interesting to talk about in 2015.

You'd seriously rather talk about gowns?

Did Bogdanovich encourage Louise to get plastic surgery to look more like her dead sister? And did he really try to have sex with her mother?

A lot is covered in this pretty candid biography R184. Hefner fucked a lot of women and is known to have passed them around, but no one comes off as creepy, loony and lecherous as Bogdanovitch. They fought over her in life, and death. They both participate here, as does Louise, Eric Roberts and Mariel Hemingway. Louise certainly had a lot of plastic surgery prior to marrying Peter at 20 years old, likely to more resemble her sister. There is some Hitchcock realness to Bogdanovich's substitution of the homely little sister for the brutally murdered Dorothy.

*fought over Stratten

[quote] Cher is fun to watch, but she isn't a great actress.

SNAP OUT OF IT!

You don't give an interview and say I think I will be nominated for a film like Cher did for Mask. You just don't...

Before Dorothy Stratten, Bogdanovich left his wife Polly Platt for the young Cybill Shepard. He tried to make her a film star, but she had no charm or talent, so his efforts failed spectacularly. While they were together they were roundly hated; they were both incredibly full of themselves and flaunted their "love." After that relationship ended, he looked for another young girl to take charge of, and Stratten fit the bill perfectly. Poor Dorothy Stratten. She was so passive, so compliant. She had execrable taste in men.

Bogdanovich played a Hefner-like character on an episode of Law & Order: Criminal Intent.

"Imagine "Trip to Bountiful" x3 old bitties."

It's "biddies."

Not as smart as you think you are.

[quote] Ditto, her Nancy Reagan which was intended for film but ended up on TV via controversy. She's amazing.

It was supposed to have been on CBS, but it went to Showtime instead. Right-wingers protested it because Reagan was in the final stages of Alzheimer's at the time it aired, and the screenwriter admitted she made stuff up, including the line "those who live in sin shall die in sin." But it wasn't just conservatives who were less than impressed with it; Rock Hudson's former lover, Marc Christian, hated it. That's what you get when you let Craig Zadan and Neil Meron tell your life story; their Beach Boys mini-series was so bad, Brian Wilson spoke out against it. And I'm glad Lucy wasn't alive to see that painfully cheesy recreation of her life story.

[quote] I didn't know that Newman even had a daughter.

Paul Newman had 5 daughters and 1 son.

He and his first wife had 1 son and 2 daughters.

He and his second wife had 3 daughters.

ha, still smart enough to know "Whales of August" was a bust, both commercially and critically. A whole lot of nuttin'. (Did I get that right enough for you?)

And Ms. Gish hated working with Bette Davis, just for the record.

During the filming of "The Whales of August," Anderson told Gish one day that she had just performed wonderfully in a closeup. "She should," Davis declared. "She invented them."

No, you addlepated moron, WHALES wasn't a bust, it was a lovely, quiet coda to the careers of several great actors. It wasn't THE DARK KNIGHT part whatever. It got good, if not great reviews and made its money back at the box office.

Should have been titled 'The hiefers of Tuesday'

Intentional misspelling, so sip drano oh, deer tick troll!!

[quote]And Ms. Gish hated working with Bette Davis, just for the record.

Ms. Gish was so old she probably hated breathing.

R196 is a blast at parties, no doubt.

I was waist deep in the business in 1987, trust me; "Whales" was regarded as a big old snooze. Fuck "The Dark Knight", it wasn't even "Steel Magnolias", which I worked on the next year.

(Sorry meant R195 for that last post).

It depends on what your interests are, or were. I was a film student when WHALES came out and was thrilled.

You were probably a fucking cunt so you were bored.

Change your face, Louise. C'mon, it can't make any difference to you.

[quote]It's interesting that 3 of the top ten directors of the last 50 years are perverts: Bogdanovich, Polanski and Woody Allen.

In related news:

[quote][bold]Roman Polanski: Polish Court Sets Extradition Hearing Date[/bold] [italic]Under Polish law, if the court agrees the extradition request, Polanski's case will be handed to the country's justice ministry for a final decision.[/italic]

Hearing scheduled for September 22.

Actually re: Lillian Gish's close-up comment, BETTE said THE BITCH invented them. Sanitizing her words is not nearly as funny.

make no mistake, the REAL talent behind Last Picture Show and Paper Moon was the production designer, Polly Platt who was married to peter B. at the time.

the acting talent of tatum, her dad and others also helped Paper Moon.

the brilliant actors of the Last Picture Show (with the exception of cybil shepherd and her strange breasts), elevated that moview/ polly's design.

without polly, peter's other movies suck.

i saw him dorothy's sister. sad and creepy.

i saw him with dorothy's sister. sad and creepy.

(typo correction)

peter is a good interviewer and film critic. he is not a good film director.

his ass was saved by polly's beautiful prod design and his actors (not cybil).

Never trust a man wearing an ascot.

Shepherd got banned from the Oscars for a while because she purposely tried to work Bogdanovitch's films into this presentation

[quote]Cher winning the Oscar in 1988 for that piece of shit Moonstruck over Glenn Close's iconic performance in Fatal Attraction remains one of the greatest travesties in Academy Award history

Glenn Close was actually much, much better in Dangerous Liaisons, arguably her best role. She certainly deserved the Oscar over winner Jodie Foster for The Accused; however, the most deserving that year was Meryl Streep for her brilliant performance in A Cry In The Dark.

Cher was fantastic in Moonstruck, but Holly Hunter should have won for Broadcast News. Hunter eventually won a few years later for The Piano, a year in which Angela Bassett should have won for What's Love Got To Do With It.

Basset was too buff for Tina. I never understood why she got so cut for that film.

Basset was great back then but now I want to smack her every time she shows up onscreen. She seems to stop, even on film, as holding for applause. Vomit.

Basset and Courtney Vance seem like a lavender marriage to me.

Teresa Carpenter's "Death of a Playmate" originally appeared in the VILLAGE VOICE. Her story was the runner-up in Pulitzer Prize competition for best feature writing. The winner was Janet Cooke for "Jimmy's World" in the WASHINGTON POST. When Cooke's fabrications were discovered, her Pulitzer was rescinded and Carpenter received the Pulitzer Prize

Eric Roberts was excellent in Star 80.

He should have had a more stellar career IMO.

He was too crazy r214 and ruined his chances

Eric Roberts works constantly . He may not be a "star" but he's still a working actor.

I still think it's odd that Cher wins the Canne Award for Best Actress but then doesn't even get nominated for an academy award for Mask.

Generally, she's a good actress. Her biggest misstep was the recent crap she made with Christina Aguilara but I figure Cher took whatever she could get

'Burlesque' was not a misstep - she'd not been in a movie in over 10 years - unless you count her cameo in 'Stuck on you'.

R173.

Bogdanovich is a creep and a filth encrusted asshole, no argument there. He did make some really good movies and at a time when his Hollywood star was on the upswing did his best to promote Michael Powell and Orson Welles, whose careers were on the skids. So there's a lot of good and a lot of yecch there, as with Woody Allen, Bill Cosby, et al.

[quote]Her biggest misstep was the recent crap she made with Christina Aguilara

Excuse me?

I found myself completely uncomfortable with how awful Cher was in Moonstruck. I just kept thinking...was there anyone else present to see how badly this was going? She was well directed and coached in Silkwood. As for Witches (of Eastwick) I was pretty young when I first saw it but it was to see Michelle Pfeiffer. The other two were just old hags I had never heard of. I did hear about her attempt to remake Auntie Mame (dreadful idea) but apparently nobody wanted to work with her so she couldn't get it off the ground. Opened her moth too often about others in the business and ended up shooting herself in the foot. She did say the infomercials were smarmy. Smarmy was her word and I give her lots of respect for that.

r222 is Louise Stratten

[quote] K. Hepburn, Bette Davis, Bogart, Spencer Tracy, Judy Garland were not considered great classical beauties. Streisand...Midler....

Katharine Hepburn was exceptionally beautiful on film.

Just reading through all this then ended up down a YouTube hole an hour later and stumbled on this video. Opening minute of the 1995 Emmys. Cybill Shepherd and Jason Alexander are hosting, come out, and do a dance. At about 39 seconds Streisand (and Jon Voight) look up to the stage with real contempt, I'm guessing at Shepherd. I know Cybill/Bogdanovich/Barbra were all Sue Mengers clients in the 1970s. It's just a quick second but Barbra doesn't look impressed at all! Have to laugh and sorta give Cybill her dues. She was still gorgeous here and kept the career going longer than most thought, probably. Would love to know what Barbra was thinking!

That doesn't look like contempt. Voight is half-smiling and Streisand's expression is serious but hard to read precisely. I'd guess she's distracted by something on her mind. Herself.

Streisand just looks nervous as usual, for the time anyway. These days she seems to relax more, take it all less seriously, but not then...

[quote]Eric Roberts works constantly . He may not be a "star" but he's still a working actor.

Yeah, but it's in stuff like "Human Centipede 3" and "Amityville Death House." It is astounding to see the sheer volume of work he's got going but why is it all shite? Is he paying off old drug debts or something?

Was Bogdanovich and his apricot cravat the subject of Carly Simon's "You're So Vain"?

Amazing to me how Cher has always had to fight and struggle to get respect as an entertainer and has an Academy Award, a Cannes Best Actress Award, a Golden Globe, an Emmy and a Grammy in her resume and she still has so many detractors who hate her and try to explain away her well-earned successes. Luckily, she could give a shit. She's still rolling in the dough and always has the last laugh.

"Mask (1985)" is very sentimental, but I think it works (maybe because there's no score). I'm sure there's a more edgy, challenging movie to be made about that life/world but the one we got is still good, I think.