Overrated European City and Underrated European City

Most overrated: Budapest. That corny "the new Prague" nickname is very misleading and set my expectations way too high. Good museums and some wonderful buildings, but the city as a whole just isn't very inviting.

Most underrated: Naples. Most people connect it with garbage problems and mafia and only use it as a jump-off point to the Amalfi Coast and Capri, but the city itself is also gorgeous and has some of the best and cheapest restaurants I've ever visited. And the city's breathtaking natural setting in the bay of Naples beneath the Mount Vesuvius is second only to that of Rio in my opinion.

And I would say the MOST underrated is Budapest. Much more inviting that Prague, with great food, baths, and truly the Paris of the East.

Most over rated Prague. Loaded with people trying to sell you everything at every turn, truly tacky.

I never, ever, ever, ever want to travel with R1. What appalling taste!

Overrated: London, Madrid, Rome, Brussels

Underrated: Lyon, Thessaloniki, Split, Trieste, Antwerp

Never found Euro capital cities worth a look (ok, except for Paris). The smaller cities provide much better insight into the country's culture and beauty.

I found Zurich unbearably clean and Naples unbearable dirty.

Underrated: Madrid

Overrated: Barcelona

Plus one for Zurich. That city is so restrictive that you could put coal up a Zurchite's arse and get a diamond. Underrated...I'll say Palma de Mallorca, Lisbon and Lyon.

Underrated: Lisbon Overrated: Venice

Walking around Zurich, I thought, "OK, now I know what it was like to live in Nazi Germany."

I agree with many of these.

[quote] Never found Euro capital cities worth a look.

Rome... with it's centuries of art and architecture? Not worth a look? Oh dear...

---------------

R8 Venice is a chore during tourist season, but see it in the winter. It delivers and there is no place like it on earth.

Most underrated: MIlan.

ooops...Milan

milan

Underrated: Ypir

R11 I've been in Rome. Prefer the art/architecture of Florence and Venice.

Overrated: Madrid, London, Milan Underrated: Toledo, Granada, Gerona

Overrated - Amsterdam Underrated - Rotterdam

Why is Amsterdam so popular (ok aside from the drugs) - it is small, massively overcrowded, unfriendly and not that pretty Rotterdam is ugly but there is a lot more to see and do in comfort there, plus it's by the sea

overrated London, underrated Madrid

Overrated: London

Underrated: Athens

Overrated: Barcelona, Copenhagen, Berlin (all, in very different ways, good places to live but overrated as travel destinations)

Underrated: Madrid, Seville, Antwerp, Amsterdam (its reputation spoiled by potheads and hen/stag parties)

[quote]Most underrated: MIlan.

I found Milan to be what it is: A business city. Not really a great tourist destination, but within a quick train ride to Florence, Venice (go at night, in the Fall or when it is raining hard) and Lake Como.

I don't think I've visited a European city I'd consider overrated. I've liked them all. Certain sights, yes - I don't see the appeal of the Eiffel Tower for instance.

For underrated I'm going to pick Sofia. All the travel forums write it off, but I really liked it..

Overrated: Zurich. Extremely expensive, no nightlife, no "scene" of any sorts.. I can imagine why Tina Turner retires in Zurich, for she has money, the air is clean and the surroundings are truly beautiful. Underrated: Valencia! A true gem. Spain's third city, accommodates a whole different breed of tourists (no drunken Brits!), stunning architecture and the people are truly wonderful.

Americans: Skip Barcelona, which has sold its soul out to tourism, just like old Amsterdam.

I go to European cities more for what they contain than what they are. Since, with one exception, I have no interest in living in any of them, I don't really investigate what that's like. Also, because I don't drink, and have no interest either in alcohol or the people who consume it, bars mean nothing to me. (Bathhouses are another story..... ha ha ha, although, to tell the truth, I've only been to them in Paris, once, decades ago.)

Naples does have a gorgeous location, and possibly one of the best museums in Europe, if only because that's where many of the treasures from Pompeii and Herculaneum are exhibited. Incredible stuff, like the amazing "Alexander Mosaic," which has to be seen to be believed. (And to think this was once located on the floor of a Roman house in Pompeii... the mind reels.)

Venice is wonderful if you visit with someone you love. Truly, the combination of everything there creates a milieu that invites romance. On the other hand, I don't think it would be much fun without companionship. (See Katherine Hepburn in the early sections of "Summertime," particularly that scene of her alone at a table in the Piazza San Marco, and you'll see what I mean.)

Visitors to Italy, I have found, end up in two groups: those who love the Renaissance, and those who love the Ancient World. I'm firmly in the latter, and much prefer Rome, but my ex-wife, on the other hand, loved Florence. I found a real delight in walking in the same places where Caesar stood. (The doors on The Pantheon, my favorite place in Rome, are actually the original doors from the Roman Senate, while the original Pantheon doors, paradoxically, are to be found on some church. Funny, that, but typically Italian, where every building seems to be made of a combination of older ones. Take a good look at the Vatican, and you'll discover a lot of stone from the Colosseum....)

Sometimes, I just like walking around European cities, being in the same place as so much history, especially history that I've been reading about for years. Nothing like that in the U.S., and Colonial America has never done it for me at all, despite the fact that my mother was so proud our our ancestors living here back then. Ah well.

Probably the only city I could live in there is London. They speak English, there is great theatre, and lots of little nooks an crannies to explore, like the Camden Town flea market, or tons of secondhand bookstores. I love all that stuff. As for living there, I once spent some time with a man I met at the National Theatre, who had a flat with no central heating, but with hot-water-heated small pipes in the bathroom, to keep the towels warm! I still find that very funny. And London restaurants have never been known for their great cooking. But I like the English; we think very much alike. Must be all my Anglo-Saxon heritage, coming to the surface in that environment.

Enjoy!

It depends on what you want. Big capital cities have never been more representative of the life and diversity of a nation than right now. They are more prosperous, their prices are higher, and there is a whole lot more to do than elsewhere. However, it is difficult to extract from them what is different and unique about a culture, or a sense of its historic roots. Obviously, smaller cities are easier to visit and understand, and if they aren't ONLY tourist traps, can provide a more authentic feel. Both these options tend to be "overrated" or "underrated" depending on your prejudices. But if you pick a city which is large enough to contain a certain relevance and present influence, but small enough not to be the capital, but with intermittent periods of historic greatness, well then these would be your best underrated cities.

Examples would be Genoa in Italy, which has some of the most dramatic architecture in the world in its private spaces; Bordeaux, France for its non-Frenchness; Koblenz, Germany (occupied by the French after the war, not the Brits or Americans and therefore largely unfamiliar to them), etc....

Underrated: Bologna. Overrated: Rome.

Underrated: Glasgow. Turin. Brno (Czech Republic), St. Petersburg, Riga, Santiago de Compostela.

Overrated: Barcelona, Amsterdam, Budapest.

The only city I've ever visited in Europe that was a big letdown was Trieste. I had heard from lots of people about how speical and charming it is, and I actually found it ugly and boring.

Amsterdam was OK. I found it much less pretty than other people do, and I was constantly trying to avoid being hit by people on bicycles. I'm not much interested in pot, but it did have great art and great history.

My favorite European cities have been Prague (despite the obnoxious hordes of teenagers), Rome (dirty but unbelievably spectacular), Bath (spectacular Georgian architecture), and most of all Istanbul.

Overrated: Amsterdam, Dubronik

Underrated: Stockholm, Mostar & Sarajevo, Bosnia-Herz.

Glasgow is the badly behaved younger sister to Edinburgh's snooty debutante. I would add Stirling to the underrated Scottish cities list, followed by Perth. Edinburgh is overrated - too English and too many tourists.

Overrated: Amsterdam. Unfriendly, cold, crowded, and the seedy parts are all for straight men. Milano.

Underrated: Agrigento and Erice in Sicily. Glasgow.

Must admit, I'm loving all the love for my home (Glasgow!) We're a friendly bunch - as long as you buy us a pint or some chips and cheese at the end of the night - and we do actually know what salad is (it's the crap in a plastic bag with your pakora or kebab). And unlike them lot over in Edinburgh, we *won't* ask you if you've had your tea yet.

But we might just headbutt you if you're an arsehole.

Oh, let's just add London to the mix. A miserable, expensive, grotty, infested, snobby, look-down-your-nose city. Give me the excellence of Manchester or the sheer vibrancy of Liverpool any day. Especially Manchester. Those two cities are cities with a soul and a heart. Both of them are perfect in their own way.

I spent a week in Amsterdam--boring and gloomy.

Completely Overrated/

Underrated are gorgeous cities like Hamburg, Munich, and Bilbao Spain.

Overrated: Barcelona, Amsterdam

Underrated: Lisbon! Such a great city.

Underrated: Cardiff and the entire country of Wales.

Cardiff is so charming and most of the men are dark and handsome.

Wales in general is fucking GORGEOUS! The countryside is lovely!

R26 - don't tell them! It's supposed to be *our* secret!

Overrated - Amsterdam and Paris. Yes, I like the museums of Paris, and Notre Dame...but it leaves me cold otherwise. Just don't like the architecture or the attitude.

Underrated - Glasgow and Brussells

Underrated: Liverpool

Overrated: London

Overrated: Dubrovnik

Underrated: Split

I've loved all of the European cities I have been in, BUT there are quite a few I wouldn't return to. Prague and Barcelona are full of important works of art and amazing architecture and history, but they have become tourist factories. After a couple of days in historic Prague I went out into the burbs for a breather and outside of old town, the city is Reseda with some history.

Ubder rated? II can't get enough of Madrid, Paris, Budapest, Berlin. But that's my taste.

Overrated - London

Underrated - Bologna, Leipzig, Utrecht, Munich

London, Hamburg overrated - Vienna, Paris, Barcelona underrated

Overrated: Prague Underrated: Lisbon

Overrated - Amsterdam - boring, unfriendly, nowhere near as funky as it thinks and it is overrun with tourists

Underrated - Bratislava - small but very interesting and friendly

Underrated - Hamburg. Beautiful plus red light district fun. Loved living there.

Overrated - Munich. Too many fucking Americans there. Cold (and I don't mean the weather).

I'm surprised that a few people said Rome is overrated. I've been there a number of times and can't get enough of the place.

More spectacular than I even dreamed of as a child.

Right, I would get tired of Paris, London or Madrid (in a touristic sense) long before I saw half of what's hidden in and around Rome.

Agree R47 and R48. Some people just don't "get" Rome.

Overrated: Amsterdam, and for the reasons already mentioned.

Underrated: Frankfurt. Yes, the area around the train station and the convention center sucks, and the city center is like a European version of the Chicago Loop without the charm and whimsey, but if you take the time to explore a bit, it's a wonderful city with interesting neighborhoods and lots of parks and green spaces. College kids and foreigners give it a vibe that's like Berlin, but without all the attitude.

Overrated: Paris, London. Probably Amsterdam.

Underrated: I'm not about to tell ya!

Years ago on the Howard Stern Show, Robin described her trip to Amsterdam and it matched what many DL'ers are saying on here. She said it was smaller than she expected.

Overrated: London, Madrid

Underrated: Vienna

Overrated: Rome - when I went there, it was very touristy, hot, full of people trying to steal your shit, overpriced, and when you got to see something finally - it was rushed. The food was good, though.

Regarding Italy, I liked Florence considerably more than Rome...and the small cities in Tuscany where we did day trips (I can't spell them).

Underrated: Cardiff, Dublin

I was born and raised in Amsterdam and I can't think of a city that I hate more.

I think it's the people that make Amsterdam a markedly shitty place, especially the self-congratulatory yuppie-types, who live in the city-center and the south part of the city . Also the people who work in the service industry (mostly students or school kids) treat their customers like scum.

Overrated: Berlin Underrated: Potsdam

R56

I gotta disagree. I've been to Berlin twice and loved it.

Overrated: Milan

I lived for 8 years in Berlin and I miss it terribly at times. It lacks old-world charm, but there are some very pretty areas and interesting modern buildings. Arts and culture - more than you can shake a stick at. Every kind of nightlife on offer all of the time. I would only call it overrated in the sense that it was starting to become overrun with young hipsters, wanna-bes and tourists when I moved there (and I suppose I was in at least one of those categories) & more and more kept moving in all of the time. It's not as cool as it was 10-15 years ago, but it's still pretty great.

Amsterdam is a special kind of misery, like many have said.

Bilbao, Dublin and Manchester are the three notable shitholes I've been to, that don't at least have the excuse of being bombed out during the War.

Milan might be the most disappointing one that does.

I don't think London is overrated at all.

But it doesn't show the best of itself to strangers immediately.

You need explore the back streets the hidden alleys and parks and residential squares.

But if you go as a tourist and just hang around in the center and do all the touristy things it can feel disappointing.

Climb Primrose Hill and go explore Hampstead Heath the next time.

The view of London from the top of Primrose Hill

R63 There are views, and there are views. THIS is definitely a view. From the Piazzale Michelangelo, Florence, with the Arno and the Ponte Vecchio.

Dublin a shithole? I think not.

Outside of Trinity? Absolutely.

I used to go to Rome in the fall but now I'm wondering if there is any time to go except the middle of winter to avoid the hordes of tourists which have been increased with the influx of Russians and Asians.

This thread needs criteria for the ratings...

Overrated: London / Underrated: Belfast is meaningless

Overrated: Venice (dear fucking God the crowds), Geneva (duller than week-old oatmeal).

Underrated: Lisbon, Naples.

Overrated: Oslo, Norway (boring and ugly)

Underrated: Bergen, Norway (fun and beautiful)

I preferred Budapest to Prague as well. Service staff in Prague are borderline miserable.

Overrated: London, Madrid, Brussels, Majorca and Rome

Underrated: Dubrovnik

The best cities for me are often the ones where I have a friend or acquaintance willing to show me the inside daily life, meet locals, and also hints on where to go, what to see, and what to avoid. Also, in my 20's and 30's I was a sex tourist sometimes and supply of hot dick could make a visit wonderful. In those years, London, Paris, Berlin, Amsterdam, Vienna, Barcelona, were always welcome for a few days or longer. Taking a course in a city, or having a work placement, and having the month or two to get to know it lazily, also makes it shine. Geneva, Paris, Vienna, Cologne, Munich, Hamburg, Genoa, Seville,

blahblahblahblahblah

Paris has hordes of tourists but once I was there in a heatwave in July/August and avoiding the tourist spots, the city was empty and dreamlike. A particularly memorable visit to Versailles, among several, was during January, when I bundled up and walked the empty gardens for hours. Hit Venice during the right moment and its perfect. I spent a month in London one summer when continental Europe was in a terrible heat wave. London was sublime, sunny, 70 degrees, sweater at night. Perfect. Lovely.

Bilbao wins for the rudest, coldest folks I've run across.

I lived in Berlin for months at a time, usually right on the Ku'damm, and must admit I never quite got it. Just felt cold and industrial somehow. And the bars indeed felt like what Bette Midler said about her concerts in Germany: "It was like performing in front of a chain link fence."

When did Majorca become a city, R72? BTW, please spell it MALLORCA, which is the Spanish/Catalan spelling, thanks.

I think Mallorca can stand on its own as a single destination, without getting all caught up in specific cities.

Sorry, but I lived in Mallorca for a few years and just like any major city, it has its bad places and good places. But in Mallorca the good outnumber the bad. Get away from the crap, like Magaluf and Santa Ponsa, and head inland and east and you'll find places that just ooze quality. I'd rather go to a, say, tapas bar or proper family-run Spanish or Mallorcan restaurant and eat good, proper Mallorcan food than deal with the slags of Magaluf and their chips-and-egg approach. Especially the ex-pat crowd. *shudder*

Great thread, I'll add Weimar to the underrated. It's really tiny but so pleasant. Plenty to do in at least two full days, which is amazing for a place so small.

And since this is DL, if you're in Lisbon go to Sintra! The mist, the castles up in the forest...

I have a friend who lives in London and I went to visit him quite a few times. I just don't get London, the ugly 80s architecture the snobby, rude people, the dirty busses, rubbish everywhere, the shitty weather. Give me Paris, Barcelona and Vienna every day.

Tons of these running around when you go there. Yum!

Overrated: Copenhagen

Underrated: Glasgow

All of Switzerland is so boring and super expensive. But it's a clean place and I guess a good place to retire if you want to spend the rest of your life being bored.

I was just in Siracusa and it was beautiful, even the modern city was nice.

Overrated: Florence (a renaissance Disneyland with no nightlife or cafe scene)

Underrated: Siena

Because people go to Florence for the discos.....

Copenhagen is the most vapid metaphor for narcissism I've ever seen. City and citizens all well manicured and pretty enough but cold, lifeless, empty and dull. Down to every other store you walk past selling cosmetics for some reason.

Overrated: London

Underrated: Bruges

Someone mentions Bruges. Thread closed for lameness.

I'm a bit surprised by all the hate for Amsterdam. Sure, all those trashy tourists who go there only for pot and the hookers can be a bit annoying, but I thought the city itself (its architecture and unique layout) were spectacular. I really enjoyed exploring all those quiet side canals and feeding the swans while listening to the carillion from the nearby belltower (I know I know, MARY!). The city also has some gorgeous suburbs which are completely off the tourist radar. Nieuwendammerdijk (photo below) is especially nice.

I also liked nearby Brussels which everyone seems to hate, so perhaps my taste is a bit strange.

R81 - where, cardiff or london? It seems like all the hot Welshmen live in England. Everyone in Cardiff was VERY nice, but there were not too many cute guys when I was there.

Male eye candy is the criteria? = Krakow, Bratislava, Belgrad, Zagreb, Naples, Palermo, Istanbul, Seville

I love Amsterdam especially in the off season. What about Valencia? I haven't heard anything about it.

Another factor in Amsterdam's and Rotterdam's favour = reliable supply of tall guys with size meat. Also Hamburg.

Lanky tall guys with sizemeat that smell like cheese

R80, Paris is a lot dirtier than London. Depending on neighbourhoods, in both cases.

The person who posted Bruges meant Gent.

[quote]Copenhagen is the most vapid metaphor for narcissism I've ever seen. City and citizens all well manicured and pretty enough but cold, lifeless, empty and dull. Down to every other store you walk past selling cosmetics for some reason.

Copenhagen is very boring indeed, but I don't hear much about the place at all, so I didn't choose it as most overrated.

Underrated: Glasgow and Lisbon. Found them both special places to visit and glad others on this thread agree. I'd add one not mentioned -- Oslo. Loved it. Stockholm as well --can get out of both those Scandinavian cities easily and see special places

R90, Wales in general. Cardiff has lovely men with black hair and eyes. My fav. Sorry you didn't experience the same.

Let's face it, the 20th century wasn't kind to a LOT of Northern Europe.

Underrated: Athens. It's a fascinating city. People are friendly. Great restaurants.

Overrated: Salzburg. It's okay, kind of small; a little boring. Big claim to fame: Some of Sound of Music was filmed there. Hmmm, a bit of a yawn.

Salzburg has big music festivals. Its a cultured city. Its claim to fame is not a schlocky American movie setting.

[quote]Sure, all those trashy tourists who go there only for pot and the hookers can be a bit annoying

You don't have to go to Amsterdam for that. Prostitution and hashish is legal in most European countries. Unless all those trashy tourists were Americans ....

[quote]You don't have to go to Amsterdam for that. Prostitution and hashish is legal in most European countries. Unless all those trashy tourists were Americans ....

The American college kids are annoying. Their "look at me, I'm getting stoned in Amsterdam!" act is weird considering it's exactly the same thing they do every weekend back at Michigan State, but they're nothing compared to the endless packs of roaming Brits. They're too loud, too drunk, and way too into the hookers. And God help you if there's a UK football team playing in Amsterdam the weekend you're there.

The thing about Amsterdam is that it is simply not as impressive as city as it thinks it is.

The drugs and tourists aside, it is a very pretty place, but it is small. The museums - Van Gogh and Rijksmuseum and Stedelijk museum are fairly interesting but come nowhere near museums in London or Paris or Madrid. The architecture is cute and homely but not breath-takiing. The people are tall and goodlooking but oh so rude and coarse. Amsterdam is in an awkward position that it tries to compete with the 1st tier European cities - London, Madrid, Paris, Berlin, Rome - and ends up looking very dull by comparison. And then of course are the hordes of gross, stoner tourists.

Well Amsterdam you can easily be in a very unique countryside. The beach is close and lovely. And you can spend a day in The Hague which has wonderful museums.

I hate Amsterdam in bad weather. Bone chilling. Its a summer destination ONLY.

[quote]The museums - Van Gogh and Rijksmuseum and Stedelijk museum are fairly interesting but come nowhere near museums in London or Paris or Madrid.

Who gives a fuck about the fucking museums all the fucking time?

I don't travel to a foreign country to spend my time in the fucking museums.

We, haven't much to say after r25's post (minus the bath-houses, haha!); it says it all, including living in London! But I'll play:

Over-rated: Zurich; Stockholm; Bologna; Athens; Brighton.

Under-rated: Delphi; Dresden; Annecy (Fr); York; Ghent; Lago di Garda.

But aside from just museums Amsterdam is pretty but homely, small and dull - it really lacks any sort of wow factor - which is not helped by the persnality of the local population. They are quite delusional about the appeal of their city. And in the winter it really is the 7th circle of hell - grey, cold, dank, depressing Go there in November and December and have a laugh when the white folks dress up in blackface, big Afro wigs and huge red lips (it's their version of Santa Claus). If you mention that it might be just a touch racist they will spit on you. 'It's tradition' they will say. Well slavery and apartheid were Dutch traditions as well but they don't like to be reminded of that.

Meant "Well,...."

r100, you've heard of Mozart, perhaps?

[quote]Over-rated: Zurich; Stockholm; Bologna; Athens; Brighton.

That's a shame. Stockholm is top of my list of places to visit.

I liked Athens very mush and it has a horrible reputation.

& I'm not sure Zurich is overrated. Who rates it as a place to go, other than a place to park your money?

[quote]Under-rated: Delphi; Dresden; Annecy (Fr); York; Ghent; Lago di Garda.

Actually, I think your whole list is pretty shit. Dresden? Ghent? Dear, God...

[quote]you've heard of Mozart, perhaps?

He's still there?

I liked Warsaw more than I thought I would. There are some top museums there (sorry, R106) and the hotels are cheap.

Vilnius in Lithuania is also worth visiting.

I'd rate Belgrade as the ugliest European city I've seen, but it's cheap and lively.

I'd put Nice, France, as very underrated . I used to love going there. Great city. Very nice beaches. Well located along the French riviera.

But in recent times more and more very cheap flights from the UK has made it crowded to bursting point and dirty and grim. Reminded me of New York in the '70s (& not in a good way).

Has anyone mentioned Berlin?

I'd love to go.

Naples, I agree, is stunning but it's evil. Naples is a beautiful bitch.

Don't just hide your money. Lock it up.

I'm from Napoli and I thank all the people who suggested going there (we need more tourists, not just the pass-throughs to Capri and the Amalfi coast. R115 is right, she is a beautiful bitch. But tourists don't really need to worry about crime -- there is only the occasional pickpocket for cruise ship tourists, and now that the area around the train station has been fixed up (it used to be really dicey) that's made the city safer too. Camorra violence is reserved for other mob members. Please visit Naples!

The old saying "See Naples and die!" has been updated to "See Naples, be robbed and die!".

Very good R115. True of the rest of Italy too, really.

Berlin, r115, is worth visiting -- no matter what others say. Pergamon Museum, Neues Museum -- 45 minute train ride to Potsdam from main train station.... Lots in Berlin worth seeing.

Where's the overrated and underrated Alabama city thread?

I was in Amsterdam in December and loved it. Shortest days but it was Christmas and quite beautiful. I have never had a problem or felt unsafe in Italy. I did get homophobic vibes one time in Florence, otherwise never felt like I was threatened or about to be ripped off. Same goes for Sicily but I didn't go to Palermo.

R100 Athens is an eyesore like Naples is There are many other cities in Italy that are nicer. Go to Campania skip Naples. As for Athens ...the people are freindly?! Since the downturn they have changed quite a bit. Before that some of them were worse than The French. Salonica is very nice for a Greek city which isn't saying much.

People are trying to turn Puglia into the new Tuscany,big fail because it isn't. Though I must admit both Bari and Lecce are the jewels of Southern Italy especially Lecce.

R114 Nice is still not Marseille BUT Marseille has gotten better in the recent past.

[quote]Nice is still not Marseille BUT Marseille has gotten better in the recent past.

The weather isn't as lovely in Marseille.....it's less 'palm tree riviera'....and it has that horrid wind.

The mistral is a dealbreaker for me. Went to Aix en Provence and St. Remy, two of my favorite places, but the wind was crazy for 3 days straight! I still love those places though, but would not want to deal with the mistral regularly. R122, Naples is in Campania. Puglia is lovely, no it doesn't have the same landscape at Tuscany but it does have beautiful white hill towns and vistas of the sea. Great beaches too which Tuscany it not really known for. Great food in Puglia too.

Overrated: Kharkiv

Underrated: Dnipropetrovsk

[quote]Overrated: Kharkiv

But the museums are GREAT!

Which one has the best McDonald's and the cleanest bathrooms?

R111, go to Stockholm. You won't regret it. Be prepared for a BUDGET though, it is very expensive. Totally worth it, I would love to live there (though I have yet to see Sweden outside of summer).

The poster who mentioned Dresden: what??? I was there two days ago, and No. As you arrive in Altstadt quarter from Neustadt you are at first charmed by all that's left, which is indeed quite pretty and monumental and you do get a strong feeling re: bombings etc. And then you get inside Altstadt, and it is quite frankly a caricature of a tourist city. Horrible. And not to mention the people are not particularly friendly (in fact, downright unpleasant, which might be understandable).

If you are going to Germany, visit Weimar instead.

Hamburg is on my list too, but I haven't been there yet.

[quote]Which one has the best McDonald's

It's actually an interesting question because European McDonalds' use a different meat supplier than the USA. The Chicken Legend in the UK and Ireland is actual chicken, not whatever patty crap it is in the usa. And, the fries are really good in Dublin...I forgot London. (Sometimes I'm in a rush, don't judge me.)

Lisbon is beautiful, careworn and romantic. Marseille has a lot of ungentrified charm. While raffish and untidy, Bucharest offers pleasantly sleazy nightlife and intriguing nooks and crannies to explore.

Hamburg's problem is that there's always a large body of water between me and wherever I want to go. It wouldn't be a problem if you lived there, because the public transportation is very good, but to a casual tourist it's very frustrating.

My main problem with all German Cities is their complete inability to invent an automatic ticket dispensing machine for their public transportation that makes the slightest bit of sense to an outsider. Even if you understand German it's pointless because they use bizarre abbreviations, the machines generally refer to Zones you're expected to know (and they never bother to explain), the rules are completely different between S Bahn and U Bahn, and while you're trying to figure it out there's a long line of Germans behind you muttering about what an idiot you are. If they had used the damned machines during WWII they would have managed to send a total of about 84 Jews to the camps.

Bruges?!

Yeah but that water makes Hamburg so pretty. It's the richest city in Germany which shapes it a lot. Cool Germans though (the bitch Germans were always in Munich for me).

They are so orderly that their trains run to the second (trust me, I missed more than one by said second) -- but they can not form a line to save their lives. One will be going and then someone will suddenly stand a foot away and chaos ensues. It is so weird, perhaps a subliminal reaction to years of following directions or something.

Copenhagen really got no love here...that's too bad - the men from that part of Europe look super hot (to me / my type). Are any of the "Nordic" countries fun to visit? My BF (of Swedish descent) won't allow me to go to them (jokingly) because he knows I will turn into a slut pig there...but maybe after he dumps me, I can fill the void with Nordic cock?

Glad to hear Naples got cleaned up a bit. I went with a friend and she was robbed 150 feet from the train station -- and we are both seasoned travelers. She could have been badly hurt. The area was squalid and nasty.

Overrated: Barcelona, Budapest, Edinburgh, Venice, Munich, Berlin, St. Tropez

Underrated: Madrid, Vienna, Greek Isles

St Tropez has got a terrible reputation in France. It's a very tacky destination.

Yes R134 go to Sweden. You won't regret it. It is very beautiful. I don't know about the men (or women for that matter), the setting is just gorgeous at all (most) times! And it is so clean...

That should have read Trollet, by the way.

R138, what part do you recommend? Stockholm?

I kind of want to get away in november, but it's so far north, the sun sets at 3 PM. I guess august is the best time to go?

[quote]The Chicken Legend in the UK and Ireland is actual chicken

WTF is a Chicken Legend?

St. Tropez is OK for a day trip from your superyacht. You can go to Nikki beach where the vultures at la voile rouge will bring your party tons of seafood and champagne you didn't order to try to rack up a 10K aperitif. Fun times!

R141 - according to the website - "Succulent chicken breast fillet in a crispy coating with Batavia lettuce and Cool Mayo in a warm, toasted bakehouse roll." It's a bit naff. Far better going to Nandos and trying their not-quite-spicy sauces.

Yes, August is the best time to go. I would definitely recommend Stockholm. Plenty of accomodation (watch out for the prices!), Langholmen if you like a leafy tiny island, The Red Boat Mälaren if you want a more "vibrant" experience (I enjoy the quiet myself).

Plenty of people jogging everywhere. The Swedes are very fit, except maybe in the suburbs (like anywhere else).

Djurgarden is a must (Vasamuseet! and the island itself), few places are un-recommendable really.

Great ice-cream in Vaxholm.

[quote] WTF is a Chicken Legend?

I'll take Bryan Singer for $1m.

[post redacted because linking to dailymail.co.uk clearly indicates that the poster is either a troll or an idiot (probably both, honestly.) Our advice is that you just ignore this poster but whatever you do, don't click on any link to this putrid rag.]

R144 Långholmen has ex-prison as a hotel, a bit far away from the city but near nudist beach. Red Boat Mälaren is more like a motel. There is an excellent connection from Arlanda airport to the central and around the station are plenty of good hotels and you can walk to Djurgården. Don't forget, next to Vasa Museum is every gay man's wet dream, the ABBA museum. I'd also advice to make a ferry trip to Waxholm and Drottningholmen. Although August in the holiday month in many European countries, in north July is the one, when it is usually very hot and sunny.

[quote]Although August in the holiday month in many European countries, in north July is the one, when it is usually very hot and sunny.

Are you Swedish? I thought they could speak good English in general.

R148 Yes people in the Nordic countries speak fluent English. I am from one of those countries.

Batavia lettuce?

R150 - a pretty crisp lettuce. I don't know if they have 'em Stateside. It's a close cousin to the Iceberg, but the lettuce is really crisp and sweet.

Overrated -- Copenhagen Underrated -- Oslo

What cities and mountain/lake areas in Switzerland do you recommend? I've traveled through the country by train and it's always so beautiful. I also spent a night in Zurich, but it was kinda boring.

I live in switzerland and can recommend but you need to say what season and your interests, R153

R153 - if you want something touristy and rather unusual, try the Jungfraujoch. It's a railway that goes up inside a mountain (the Jungfrau) to an observatory and viewing area at the summit. Pretty weird, but fun!

Overrated: Paris -- in many respects it's practically third world Underrated: Ljubljana

R154, Summer. What are your favorite mountain/lake areas, and what are your favorite cities?

Locarno! If you're a film lover (the auteur variety), go to the festival in August (5-15 approximately). Scenic views over Lago Maggiore, and you can always enjoy a film or two. Faye Dunaway attended a couple years ago, Jacqueline Bisset did too.

I've lived in and around Paris for 12 years + and I concurr with R156. And it's only getting worse.

Thanks for the Swiss recommendations.

Locarno looks gorgeous. It looks like it would be a good destination after visiting Lake Como in Italy.

What are you interests?? Then I can recommend. Sports? High culture? Nitelife? Natural beauty? Please don't say "all of them" or you're just being lazy.

Absolutely, R161. We spent a week there a few years ago and it still ranks as my favourite vacation ever. Stockholm ranks second, and I'm eager to go again.

Glasgow is the most underrated city in the world. Paris is the most overrated.

I live in the most overrated city in the world. Well, I moved out really (because it was so overrated) and make a point of spending every single holiday elsewhere.

R124 I know that Naples is in Campania! I've actually been there several times.My point is that it is a beautiful region but Naples is not no matter how much they have cleaned it up since the 90s. The rest of Campania is impressive eve the relatively sedate town of Benevento might surprise some.. Same thing goes for Athens.The beaches are much nicer in Greece than they are in Puglia.

[quote]I've lived in and around Paris for 12 years + and I concurr with [R156]. And it's only getting worse.

I've lived in London for 50 years + and it's only getting worse.

"All my bags are packed I'm ready to go...the taxis here, he's blowin' his horn...."

[quote]Glasgow is the most underrated city in the world. Paris is the most overrated.

Glasgow's horrible however much they try to tell you otherwise.

But fuck...just look at the countryside around it.

Capri c'est fini!

[quote]I live in the most overrated city in the world. Well, I moved out really (because it was so overrated) and make a point of spending every single holiday elsewhere.

If you've moved out, what do you mean you 'make a point of spending every single holiday elsewhere'?

[quote]Faye Dunaway attended a couple years ago

From everything I've heard about her, this would be a reason NOT to visit, assuming she might show up again.

I love Glasgow, r168. I've been there. Have you?

The people bitching about Amsterdam and Copenhagen are the same kind of people who bitch about New Orleans. Yeah, cities that don't have a million people don't have the metropolitan excitement of Paris, London, Barcelona, Madrid, or Berlin.

But most of this is failure to try to understand what it makes it special. You didn't do any research and you expect it to unfold for you without your even attempting to see it properly.

Bilbao is the pits but San Sebastian is beautiful, friendly and the food is world class.

Much of this thread is about which cities make an immediate appeal to tourists and which don't.

Glasgow has come up a few times. Is it gay friendly there? Edinburgh seemed pretty gay in that section where the glass house hotel is. Glasgow was where some of my favorite unknown actors are from. Well, John Barrowman isn't unknown - but probably most people don't know ewan stewart (below) or gary lewis...though they're both a lot older now than their prime acting days. Gary Lewis was "alator of the catha" on merlin though a few years back.

If I could go back in time and visit a city it would be Dresden.

Why would anybody go there now? I thought it was completely destroyed?

Interesting that Paris and all the Italian jewels survived.

[r173] I lived in Amsterdam for 5 years. I really gave it my best shot and tried to acclimatise. However the people there are coarse, vulgar, rude, cold and unfriendly. It is tolerant for sure, but that's just another word for indifferent . People genuinely don't care a shit about each other there. It is pretty for sure but it' as shallow as a puddle, Architecturally it is pretty - but again not impressive. In a sense the drugs and whores is what saves it - as this gives it a somewhat unique identity - otherwise it is not very different from somewhere like Dusseldorf - pleasant but forgettable. I left as I was so bored there.

r111, well, I've been to all on my list, so there's that. The imperial area of Dresden is fab; didn't go through neighborhoods. Ghent isn't Brussels or Bruges, but IMO worth a visit. And if you scorn Lake Garda, well, your taste is questionable.

r177 (and r111), you can try Google Images for Dresden. Just a thought.

Smell Naples and Die.

[quote]you can try Google Images for Dresden

Overrated: Hong Kong

Underrated: Manila

Quite a loose definition of Europe you've got there, r183.

lol r184

R178 Your description of Amsterdam could be applied to Copenhagen too.

Another vote for Copenhagen being overrated. It doesn't help that the Danish men are rude and arrogant narcissistic jerks. The service everywhere you go is by far some of the worst in the world, and the whole city is under construction due to the metro work.

This is how a Danish female friend of mine describe Danish men: "In London men hold the door open for women. In Denmark men slams the door in women's face."

R178 R186 Could not agree more!

The contrast between Bilbao and Donostia is hard to believe. ONE of them has everything you could wish for in a destination...

What is the primary town on Lake Garda?

R177 The Americans were mindful of bombing places like Florence because of its beauty. Unlike the Germans they didn't occupy most of Europe THEN bomb one of the free areas(the UK). The bombing of Dresden and Hamburg were revenge plays by The British and The Americans because of the bombing of British cities during the war. Hamburg being in the West recovered nicely architecturally, Dresden being in East Germany was a relative eyesore.

The areas that were not bombed in Dresden are still very beautiful today. It's just the atmosphere that is very, very peculiar. I guess not the ideal place for a tourist, far from it. Better to stay in Neustadt and take the time to get a sense of the place. But for that I guess you'd need a few months.

I'm sad about Danish men being rude & arrogant jerks. They look so hot on Rita (the show on netflix) - especially Rosa's dad, Lars.

R191, it's a totally false equivalency to compare Allied carpet bombing of German cities with the disruptive but ultimately very limited damage that the Luftwaffe did in England. No German city that was flattened in the war ever recovered its original luster, which is why large German cities are mostly ugly today (although Berlin is definitely worth a visit for its bustle and nightlife).

R177, that Paris and all the Italian jewels survived is only "interesting" if you don't consider that

1) the French capitulated immediately to the Germans in 1940, sat out the war in cafés (while collaborating when it served), and then when the Allies marched in all claimed to have been active in the Resistance, and

2) the Italians never fought much to begin with, changed sides in 1943 when the Axis situation got really hairy, and then pretty much withdrew from the war. By the time the Allied bombing campaign really got going, there was no reason left to bomb anything in Italy.

The Danes I've met were super friendly and positive - maybe in a superficial way.

It's the Dutch I can't stand.

The Swedes are usually pretty aloof, some are downright unpleasant but others can be super friendly, so it balances out. And the country is gorgeous.

Hamburg is not ugly. It is better looking now than it ever was before the war.

Hamburg is definitely on my list now. Plus, the two people I met who were raised there were both cuties and very friendly and educated. Yes I miss them!!

Hamburg in timelapse

My favorite German city as I posted upthread. The Amsterdam of Deutschland. Great shopping and a cool safe Red Light district too.

Glasgow has beautiful flats in vintage buildings about one tenth the cost of London.

Glaswegians are some of the most friendly people on earth.

[quote] BTW, please spell it MALLORCA, which is the Spanish/Catalan spelling, thanks.

English speakers don't call or spell Moscow "Moskva" or Munich "München," nor do we insist people from other countries call or spell our cities exactly as we call or spell them when they are in their own countries: if the French call London "Londres" or New York "Nouvelle York," that's their business.

The French call New York, New York. But you've made your point, R202.

I've been to Dresden for a weekend and it was fine, quite pleasant. It has some lovely parks. I didn't notice anything weird about the atmosphere, except that it is typical East Germany, so some parts are a bit run-down with broken windows, graffiti, etc. Wouldn't make a special trip to Europe just to see it, but if you are already going to the general area, give it a day or two.

Made a trip to Germany last week, and needed to single out Dresden for unpleasantness from workers in the service industry. This might be because the place is overrun with tourists.

R89, when I went to Amsterdam there was trash everywhere, and no.. not the human kind (as in "those people are trashy"). I'm talking literally stacks of garbage just lying in the streets. Amsterdam had a serious garbage problem. The smell was horrific. Amsterdam wasn't even that fun. The canals were lovely and the houses were quaint, but yeah.. the garbage put me off that city for the near future.

R206, if you haven't already, go to Stockholm. The cleanest, greenest capital I have ever seen. And bundlest of charm. I could fuck the leaves or the houses, probably.

OFGS, r182; how far did you have to search? MOST of the initial images come up as gorgeous imperial buildings and gardens. But if you are under the impression that to be "over-rated" as a city is to have a business center, you must not get out much.

R194 You are very incorrect. The Luftwaffe were merciless in their UK bombings not to mention their occupation of most of Europe. Ask Greeks why they hate Germans so much. It is not only because of the current situation but because of the brutal occupation during WW 2. The Germans were absolutely wicked in their zeal to ethnically cleanse and turn Europe into a Nazi-land. It is a great thing that they failed.

As per Italy and the war you are wrong. The directive to not bomb Italian cities came from Eisenhower himself. They knew about the historical buildings and art treasures that were there. In addition, The Italians were not the warmongering,genocidal component of the Axis,Germany was. Their occupation in Greece was relatively benign compared to the sinister presence of The Germans.

Sirmione, r190. Stunning, actually.

Interestingly, many Germans were planning a "spontan" trip to Greece this summer. Very curious as to how they were received there.

I have mentioned Oslo, Glasgow, Stockholm, Lisbon earlier in this thread. Been to those cities twice -- about 12 years between visits. I always found the people there charming, friendly, helpful --on both visits. I also was surprised at how friendly the German people were --I admit I expected them to be cold, dismissive but both in Berlin and once when I was passing through Southern Germany and stopped in smaller out-of-the-way towns and the people were just delightful. As for Spain, no one has mentioned Salamanca --not too far from Madrid. I only got to spend an afternoon there on way to Madrid but I remember it being full of nice people and vaguely remember one of the most spectacular public plazas I ever saw in Southern Europe. Any one know Salamanca well?

Yeah, Germany is interesting that way. I think politeness and social structure are big parts of their culture so they tend to be far more friendly than you might expect. Never saw a truly nasty German in a work situation, anyway, certainly not like you get in America.

It may be like Italy and Japan; all our former enemies adore us, all our allies like France and England hate our guts (or find us low rent at the very least). The Germans even liked having the military there, by all accounts.

I can't say I have met any nasty Germans either. I think these stereotypes are bullshit and many times people are just responding to rude or entitled behavior. Except maybe for Czechs? I have heard they are miserable. Don't know from experience though.

I lived in Germany for 8 years and there are plenty of miserable & rude Germans working in service jobs. It's just not a culture where "the customer is always right," as we have in the US. And anyone who ever had to deal with the bureaucracy there knows how dreadful the civil servants are. A lot of Germans, but particularly "Ossies" (former East Germans), have the mentality that they are only going to do the bare minimum required for the job - no more. Why should they, when it's so difficult to get fired from a job there?

That's not to say there aren't a lot of friendly Germans as well...but stereotypes exist for a reason.

Newsflash: one can find polite, helpful and kind people all around the world.

Newsflash: one can find assholes as well.

Overrated: Paris: a mausoleum of a city which has priced out the middle class and shoved the immigrant working class into its outer nooks and crannies en masse; the wealthy are embittered, nouveau-riche right wingers. Geneva: the country has no soul. Sour residents. I was mugged by two French-German (yes, they straddled both ancestries) teens. Copenhagen: sterile, full of menacing alcoholics, quite the white pride movement.

Underrated: Glasgow: dirty, bohemian, lively people, surprising fantastic food. Athens: seriously, it's a fun city. Avoid the Intercontinental hotel (lazy, belligerent, racist, comically inept staff) and go for mid priced independents. Frankfurt: r50 is correct.

I'm sad to hear about Copenhagen. Denmark's been on the top of my list for a while (I can't even remember why, I picked it years and years ago), but if it's full of homophobic racists I'll not make going there a priority.

Next on the list was Ireland. I do still want to go there, regardless.

R219, go to Stockholm instead. It's expensive, but well worth it.

Fuck, R218's description of Paris is uncanny: that's exactly it. I now need to check out Glasgow and R50.

Seconded on Geneva. Spent about 2 hours there some ten years ago and I was never so bored. Locarno, on the other hand, was very nice (during the film festival in August).

I might add that I'm one of those empoverished middle-classers priced out of Paris. I live in a shithole, but Paris has become a shithole, and at least mine isn't overpriced.

Please don't come to Glasgow. This perfect city doesn't need to be invaded by entitled tourists.

[quote]I'm sad to hear about Copenhagen. Denmark's been on the top of my list for a while (I can't even remember why, I picked it years and years ago), but if it's full of homophobic racists I'll not make going there a priority.

You have an odd "take-away" on things, R219. It rather seems like you're easily dissuaded from the most fragmentary bits of information which you inflate to suit your purposes. No one said anything about homophobes in Copenhagen; a couple people posts mentioned rudeness and one had "Copenhagen: sterile, full of menacing alcoholics, quite the white pride movement."

[quote]Next on the list was Ireland. I do still want to go there, regardless.

Regardless of what? That Ireland isn't a city? That of four very brief mentions of Dublin, three posters thought it underrated and one thought it overrated? Or was it the remark about the McDonald's fries being good in Ireland?

R233 I thought I read up post someone mentioning homophobia in Copenhagen. I may have misread it. But, yes, if people seem to think it's overrated and not gay friendly, I would go somewhere else.

Ireland is on my list because that's where my family is from. I do want to see where my grandparents grew up. I should have said Dublin, not Ireland, apologies. I have no interest in their McDonalds.

What city would you say is underrated?

[quote]Or was it the remark about the McDonald's fries being good in Ireland?

Why would anyone go to McDonald's in Europe? You could have had that at home. It's like these idiots getting Olive Garden in Times Square.

Worst European city: the one where DeFecto the 2015 Bump Troll lives.

Defecto, find something constructive to do so more of us don't report you to Muriel.