Were the Kray twins gay?

Did people call them "Kray-Kray"?

LOL, R1.

Tres gay.

Ronnie Kray was openly “homosexual” (his preferred term) among his close gangster circle as well as the show business and establishment milieux in which he moved, and it was an open secret among his enemies. Later, after his trial and infamy and newly minted status as celeb/ folk (anti)hero he gave confusing signals about being bisexual and indeed went on to marry a woman in prison; probably for his mum’s benefit as much as for some het street cred.

Reggie Kray was indisputably prison-gay with at least one serious romantic relationship well documented. Some of his former associates have suggested he had always been betty-both-ways even before prison. Reggie sounded MUCH straighter than his twin. Ronnie’s squeak is as fucking hilarious as it is bewildering

There was a good little British movie made about them, "The Krays" (1990). It showed Reggie as a straight man who drove his wife to suicide, and Ronnie as a gay man who included his boyfriend in the gang. (Or was it the other way around?)

Even better (hopefully) movie “Legend” starring Tom Hardy as the twins out this year

............

R6 Apparently in October R6.

Reggie was the sexier of the twins. Ronnie did get fat.

Can't get any Krayer than that!

It's well known in East London that fat queen Ronnie was a gay bottom, while his hotter masculine twin Reggie was a bisexual top who liked teenage boys. Ronnie's depression started in his youth when he was no longer cute and Reggie stopped fucking him.

R11, Awwww, poor Ronnie.

Fat Ron sounds a right “iron hoof” here and thick as two short planks

I wonder if reggie did the nasty with pal Judy Garland and thus uniting her twin interests in closet cases and thugs with shady underworld connections?

I wonder if Ron gave Johnny Ray cause to *really* cry?

Mike Tyson never forgot to send them Birthday cards. Bless.

Whose got da biggest?

Lets shove em toogeffer so dat we can mezzsure em

Okay, I thought I was up on my Britishisms, but I'm going to have to ask you what a "right iron hoof" is.

Cor blimey, R17! It’s Cockney rhyming slang innit, darlin’.

Iron hoof (pron. huff) = poof (or poove)

Often abbreviated down to just “iron”

“He’s an old iron is that one”

“Any ol’ iron..any ol’ iron..any..any..any..ol’ iiiii-ron..”

Oy! Who’dya fink ur looking at!

Reckon this’ll be any good?

Will it be as crappy as the "Moors Murders" movie?

[post redacted because linking to dailymail.co.uk clearly indicates that the poster is either a troll or an idiot (probably both, honestly.) Our advice is that you just ignore this poster but whatever you do, don't click on any link to this putrid rag.]

Wot choo lookin' at?

DINSDALE!

Billie Whitelaw does a fab turn as their mum in the 1990 film The Krays . See her at 1.35 in the trailer.

I'll always remember seeing Reggie's hearse with a 'FREE AT LAST' floral tribute emblazoned across one side. Hilariously inappropriate.

Reggie was hot when he was young. Ronnie was a fat fuck.

Surely no better example of the "face of evil" than Lord Boothby:

Their trial was the longest and most expensive in British legal history up till then. Ron, in the witness box, after being goaded by the prosecutor finally lost it and screamed at him: “YOU GREAT FAT SLOB!” Ron, at this point, after a couple of years on remand, was himself an even fatter slob. Truly proof he was DL family!

British actress Barbara Windsor dated the more-straight Kray brother. On the British soap opera "EastEnders" she played the mother of two East End gangsters patterned after the Krays.

Extra points: In the 1990 movie, The Krays, Martin Kemp, who played Reggie, played Steve Owen on EastEnders. In the show, Steve's death was due to one of the gangster brothers.

"Legend" looks like it might be fun, and it might possibly be the starmaking role that Tom Hardy has always needed.

Anyone heard the advance buzz? Good? Sucky? Or worse, to be released in January?

r22, it has been confirmed that Reggie was bisexual, but he kept it discreet because he 'em young. One of his lovers was Bradley Allardyce.

No wonder Reggie was so pissed about the Monty Python sketch, the one that said he "...knew how to treat a female impersonator".

Very exited about this Tom Hardy film

R31 - There's been a couple of advance screenings and the word of mouth seems pretty good.

I’m already a bit pissed off about the possibility (who am I kidding, *certainty*) that they’ll erase Reggie’s similarly gay/bi side, no doubt mandated by some Hollywood Suit in order to have at least one “good” twin that will resonate with the target demographic who are alienated by the thought of their torture-murder heroes being anything other than a straight

R35 And apparently no green screen CGI whatnot to assist Tom double up. I wonder if his performance will prove Oscar-worthy or is it much too mainstream-blokey fare?

The Long Firm with Mark Strong is better than the Krays movie, though Strong doesn't play the twins. He only plays one character, but it's clearly inspired by Kray(s).

Author claims Kray twins had incestuous relationship to hide their sexualities

Joseph Patrick McCormick; 31st August 2015, 5:01 PM

An author has claimed that Ronnie and Reggie Kray had an incestuous sexual relationship to hide their same-sex attractions.

The Kray twins, who were notoriously violent gang leaders in the East End of London in the 1960s, spoke extensively to author John Pearson.

The author spoke as the film ‘Legend’ starring Tom Hardy as both twins is released.

Speaking to the Mirror, Pearson said Ronnie Kray was gay and that Reggie Kray was bisexual.

He said they had a sexual relationship because they could not be open about their sexualities.

Pearson said in a book about the twins: “Homosexuality was nothing to be proud of in the East End.

“But as they became more notorious, Ronnie became quite shameless about it.

“According to Ron in the early days they had sex with each other because they were terrified about people finding out.”

Pearson has written three books on the subject of the infamous twins, and claims that Ronnie told him about the relationship during on of many interviews.

He says he waited until both twins were dead to reveal it, for fear of retribution.

Pearson wrote: “It was hardly surprising that, for the time being, both the twins kept their sexual preferences to themselves.

“According to Ron, for quite a while they were so concerned to keep their secret hidden that the only sex they had was with each other.”

Hottest twincest ever. Until Ronnie lost his looks and became a fat queen. Which reminds me, I can't stand that bloated closet queen Tom Hardy.

Love you for mentioning The Long Firm, R38. I read the novel by Jake Arnott years ago--so damn entertaining--and that miniseries was fantastic.

The Kray twins are the ultimate masc (and then some!) gay heros! Seriously though, odious human beings as they were, personally learning about them and the respect and fear and even hero-worship -- FUCKING HERO WORSHIP!!! -- but mostly fear LOL -- they engendered in their community and from all walks of life showed me, at an impressionable age, manoeuvring through a vulnerable state of self-acceptance, that being gay was not necessarily a barrier to succeed even in THE most manly of man’s worlds. It additionally taught me that a gay man couldn’t afford be a pushover

r42, just wondering, growing up were most of your friends girls? You remind me of Russell Tovey thanking his dad for forcing him to be more masculine than he naturally was. Ronnie was definitely not masc. Reggie was a masc bi stud, but the upcoming Hollywood film will probably portray him as straight.

Respectfully, save your armchair psychology, [R42]. But I will say this: Tovey was egregiously traduced by the effeminate hysterics who will not allow any space to any kind of alternative and equally valid narrative of lived (masculine) gay experience.

But to the main point; Ronnie Kray was in no sense anything other than fully and robustly masculine. His actions (and mannerisms) spoke louder than his slightly soft voice. By your reasoning Mike Tyson -- the heavy weight world champion of the world -- also wasn’t masculine. Masculinity, as imperfectly defined as it is — not unlike art in that respect; and like art we know it when we see it — is nonetheless a commonsensical reality; to deny the concept of a fairly stable and universal concept of “masculinity”, as many fems do, collapses into Alice-Through-the-Looking-Glass, “ it means just what I choose it to mean” meaninglessness PC bullshit

We agree on the inevitable monstrous fucking liberty Hollywood will take vis-a-vis Reggie’s sexuality. But the facts are out there for people to find directly because of this film. And it looks well-acted, unlike the last one (which I still hold in affection). I might go see it.

r44, the point is that Tovey as a young boy was, by his own admission, a naturally effeminate boy who liked to prance around and wanted to go to theatre school until his dad said "No, I will not have a sissy son" and forced him to be masculine. That is not a "valid narrative of lived (masculine) gay experience", that is heterosexist hostility towards queerness and gender conformity.

And Ronnie Kray was what Cockneys call a "big girl's blouse" - a gay man who think he's masculine but is actually not. I don't have to add that Mike Tyson has always shown the signs of being a closet case. His violence is desperate overcompensation.

When the Kray film comes out and inevitably straightwashes bisexual Reggie and portrays him as heterosexual, will the LGB community have the guts to object? Queers of color are justifiably upset that the Stonewall film literally whitewashes the black lesbian rioter Storme Delarverie by casting a white woman to play her. Let's direct our anger at the straight white male establishment, not other oppressed groups. And yes I consider transbians to be part of the straight white male establishment and ideology.

[quote] the point is that Tovey as a young boy was, by his own admission, a naturally effeminate boy who liked to prance around and wanted to go to theatre school until his dad said "No, I will not have a sissy son" and forced him to be masculine.

It's not quite as black and white as that. Camping it up can be like code switching. Tovey and Groff would sing show tunes in between takes on LOOKING. And I don't think they were singing the George Hearn/Robert Goulet/John Raitt songbook...

But you're correct about the (in)valid narrative part.

Apparently, one of the things Ronnie would do is to coerce young men into having sexual relations with him. He would go out to popular night spots, and if he saw someone who took his fancy he would have some of his heavies bring the poor guy over for an introduction. The threat of violence would be used if the young guy was reluctant, and, because a lot of these young men were straight, many became completely traumatised by what happened to them. One such occurrence happened to none other than Cliff Richard; Ronnie was introduced to young Cliff at a West end nightclub when he was still a young and up and coming star. It's been alleged by one of the Krays' associates that Richard was later forced into a sexual relationship with Ronnie against his will and that it continued for some time. Ronnie would also pass on some of his conquests to his good friend Lord Boothby, the notorious homosexual conservative peer. According to people who knew Reggie at the time, Cliff Richard was later forced into a homosexual relationship with Boothby by Reggie Kray, and it nearly drove him to suicide.

Cliff Richard was NOT straight

No, he wasn't. That doesn't mean he wanted to be forced into a sexual relationship against his will.

R18 I get that poof rhymes with hoof, but what the cunting hell does 'iron' have to do with any of it. So why drop the rhyming word and just use iron? FUCK THE BRITISH AND I HOPE THEIR QUEEN DIES REAL SOON

As with most cockney rhyming slang (see also Polari), r51, the first word was often all that was used. Many people did in fact just use the term 'iron' to refer to a poof. But you keep raging. Would you have called Ronnie a 'big girl's blouse' to his face, r45? I doubt it.

Horseshoes were made of iron, r51.

You're confusing them with the twins on "Everybody Loves Raymond"

Ronnie was nothin' but a big fat Poof.

The weight gain was probably related to taking prescribed anti-psychotic medications. The 1960s and 1970s "chemical straight jacket".

According to lot of the people around at the time Reggie Kray never had sex with his wife Frances. The indications were that he wasn't really bisexual at all, because apart from marrying his wife he never had a relationship with another woman.

r48 what a bizarre tale. Cliff Richard has more to worry him about the old days - he is alleged to have been a regular visitor at The Elm Guest House in London. There, so it is told, celebrities and leading politicians would be offered very young boys to rape from a local childrens home. The madame who ran it apparently overdosed on insulin. The autopsy made reference to her fatally injecting insulin into her buttocks - according to her close friends this was nonsense as she never used that part of her body as an injection site. The lady apparently kept a diary of all her visitors. Cliff Richard was apparently known as “Miss Kitty”.

Bizarre but true, r58. Cliff Richard was supposed to have confessed what had happened to him to Jill Dando. She was allegedly preparing an expose on the Elm Guest House allegations shortly before she was murdered.

I liked that movie Legend, with Tom Hardy.

I wonder if Cliff might have any knowledge as to how young Bernard Oliver came to end up in two suitcases, in Tattingstone, 1967.

"Legend" is a bloody good movie, gripping and funny and strange, and Hardy is excellent in both roles. It's really hard to believe both twins are played by the same actor, they don't seem to look alike and you can recognize each from a distance because the body language is so different.

Somehow, Hardy's Reggie seems much better looking than Ronnie.

R51 here. I can't help myself. I'm retarded.

Did they straighten out Reggie in the Legend movie?

R64 - they made him seem totally straight in that movie.

Cliff Richard was raped by Ronnie Kray?

they also inspired the best Morrissey song ever: The Last of the Famous International Playboy

Who the hell are they, and why are they so damn high-waisted?

Gay gangster twins? COOL.

The Bartok or the Peter twins can play the Kray twins and have real twincest sex on screen if the director so demands.