Do you have an MBA? Was it worth it?

Don't know about your work experience, but a good MBA program will provide you with a broad foundation in management, finance, accounting, and other areas that are designed to build your overall high-level decision-making skills and ultimately move beyond a specialist role.

If you want to stay in a marketing function, you could get an MS degree in an area where there's job growth (e.g. Big Data analytics). An MS is a shorter program which = less $$ spent on tuition. But if you want to move into an executive suite position, you'll need an MBA.

Thanks, R1. Yes, I certainly will be looking at alternative MS opportunities at well. Given how constantly and dramatically marketing changes, I'm VERY hesitant to get an overly specialized graduate degree.

Unfortunately, I've never been a specialist. Always been a marketing generalist / brand manager, which, at this stage is hurting me. I'm overqualified for entry level specialist roles, but somehow under qualified for a lot of middle-management sr. manager/assoc. director roles. I'd love to land a brand manager position at a major CPG or tech/media brand. It seems to be near to impossible to do so without an MBA.

Since it seems you are interested in those MBA required jobs, I think you should consider getting one. A good MBA program will provide you with a broad base of knowledge on all aspects of business and has been invaluable to me. I went to Penn State for mine and got a concentration in supply-chain which changed my entire career which was solidly a sales/marketing background. I'm in the same line of work, but the opportunities and perception from superiors was noticeable after I got my MBA. Given the size of the alumni at Penn State I had no problems networking and finding several opportunities from classmates. It didn't come cheap and these days an MBA can be a dime-a-dozen, but it sounds like you would seriously apply the knowledge from an MBA. Go for a visit at the schools near you and talk with the current students. This sealed it for me. Best of luck to you. A higher education is always a good idea!

Thanks. That was a very helpful response, R3. My biggest obstacle will be funding. I'm in my early 30s and have been through 3 layoffs since 2008. Two of them with extended periods of unemployment between gigs which led to really tough financial choices in order to keep a roof over my head and food in the fridge and, more to the point, extensive damage to my credit which will take years to repair. I have to spend more time researching this, of course, but I do wonder how on earth I can obtain full tuition loans for a top tier MBA education with my credit in tatters. I'm interviewing for a couple of new opportunities right now. If I land one of them, I'll likely be earning high 5-figures (high 80s) which might, income wise, price me out of some income-based loan and scholarship opportunities. But $80-90k in a city like New York when you no longer have access to credit is not the same thing as someone living in the middle o Iowa earning $90 and with access to tons of credit. If only, cost of living was truly taken into consideration.

Get a real degree, not some fake bullshit. You should learn something. An MBA is just a great way of saying that you're always right, even when you aren't.

You wanna define a "real" degree, R5?

MBAs are pretty useless. There are two reasons people get them:

1) They got an undergraduate degree that's worthless and this seems to be a fix

2) They can't decide what to do with their lives so they take MBA courses till they do and they took so long to decide they wound up with a degree.

I worked in H/R and I kid you not I have seen so many people with MBAs. They all turn out to be drifters and people who can't make up their minds and generally poor candidates for any job.

[quote]I worked in H/R and I kid you not I have seen so many people with MBAs. They all turn out to be drifters and people who can't make up their minds and generally poor candidates for any job.

That explains why MBAs are killing Hollywood filmmaking.

My one rule of thumb is NEVER listen to what HR doles out as advise. HR is neither human, nor a resource. Those who can't do, teach.

My friend has an MBA and works at Accenture. He says that the non-MBA employees there (the majority) are obsessed with denigrating people WITH MBAs...and talking about how successful they are never having to get the degree, take on the debt, etc. The same thing goes on elsewhere where insecure people have to work alongside MBAs, especially those from top schools. Only the top 10-20 ranked MBA programs really get you in anywhere. The rest are a waste of money. These days, it might be argued they are all a waste of money. They're basically one big career fair and second chance for the nerdy kids who studied too much in undergrad to party, now.

I have a masters as well, and it has been harder to get hired with it than when I did not have it. Insecure people do not want to be shown up. Every time I don't get a job and I get a reason (which isn't easy to find out) - it's always "he doesn't have enough experience" because refuse to believe the work I did getting my masters was "experience." And, the weirdest part is I often have more experience than the job description requires, but the masters is seen as a 2 year vacation.

The people I know who really value their MBA already had careers, took time off to attend elite MBA programs (ie: top 20), and then reentered the work force with the credentials to rise higher. It was a very good investment for them, but again, these people went to elite programs.

That's unfortunate, R10. Good luck to you!

Although I imagine it's super stressful to do them concurrently, there are also plenty of "executive" MBA programs that allow you to keep working during your studies.

Good point. I was told that as an entrepreneur I should only enroll in an MBA program if I could get into an elite program because the networking opportunities and connections are invaluable.

It really depends what industry and companies for which you want to work. There are some sector (irrespective of whether you think they're the scum of the earth) which require significant contacts AND an MBA like venture capital, hedge funds, private equity. Others require MBAs to gain entry positions - investment banking, high end management consulting (McKinsey, Bain, BCG). Product Management at places like P&G.

Other places like the Big 4 and their spin offs like Accenture neither give credit for nor care much about MBAs. Since most people don't have one, they are often an impediment from people who don't see the value. That said, places like PwC which have recently acquired strategy firms (they acquired Booz) will have a slightly fragmented view on MBAs.

It really also depends on where you got an MBA. The fifteen or so "Top 10 Schools" (those which perenially move around in the rankings in the top, are more worthwhile. The education is very different than what you get at commuter schools (like U of Maryland or the Cal State Schools or the SUNY schools). Many of them use case method or socratic method for classes - Harvard and Darden (University of VA) use case method exclusively in classes.

The education is better for Finance, Accounting, Marketing (technical marketing: 4Ps, Strategy - market entry/exit, etc), Strategy (not that silly stuff that people call strategy with a small "s"), quantitative analysis, operations - the stuff with more technical theory based underpinning. It's less useful for stuff like organizational behavior, organizational development, entrepreneurship, technology, innovation.

As with all things, it ultimately depends on the person. Some of the stupidest people I've ever interivewed and worked with were Harvard MBAs. A huge number of very smart and talented people who were actually able to get stuff done were MBAs from other top tier schools.

Was it worth it for me - yes. It was worth the debt and loss of income. I would never have amassed the amount of knowledge on my own in as short a time period or made as many contacts across a wide range of industries through my classmates. I would not have had any of the job opportunities I've had without it since it was a necessary job requirement.

Your mileage may vary.

In the early 80s, the "hot ticket" was said to be an engineering degree with an MBA. That lasted all of a year I think, but many many many many engineers fell for it. The ones who benefited were those who left engineering and were already favored for management, but many many many many laid off engineers are finding them useless.

R7 has not worked in HR. No one who's ever worked in HR would write it as H/R. Makes no sense.

I was the Administrative Assistant, okay R16? And, yes I am a gay male.

Jesus Christ, a secretary in HR trying to give people career advice.

Administrative Assistant, R19. Or Communications Liaison.

R17 / R7 is the problem with getting an MBA

You kill yourself getting 700+ GMAT scores and spend 100k going to a top 10 with a crazy courseload and 24/7 responsibilities... Then, some HR queen with a chip on her shoulder about what she thinks MBAs are (despite the fact she NEVER took an MBA class in her life) - vetoes your resume or just talks shit about MBAs enough that people listen and agree (without any actual facts to back it up, naturally).

But I am not even picking on this poster because these people are everywhere. This is the #1 reason NOT to get an MBA - because people who think this way are in the vast majority in the corporate world, outside of private equity and top tier consulting firms.

They're basically jealous and insecure with their own achievements, abilities, and educational status - so they talk shit about everyone who achieved more than them. Very basic....and very universal.

[quote]Administrative Assistant, [R19]. Or Communications Liaison.

Yes, secretary, as he said.

This question is tricky, and R20, R14, R10, R13, R11 and R1 all have good, valid points.

I am one of those people who never should have gone to B-School, mainly because I was unclear about what I wanted to do after. But I had the grades, got the GMAT score, got in to two top programs and felt a lot of pressure to go. So I did.

Big mistake. I wanted to drop out after one semester cause it felt so wrong, but I already felt too invested in that point so stuck it out. This just brings more credence to the point: it's all about the needs of the specific individual. An MBA is not a guaranteed career-maker for everyone, nor is it detrimental to all. Given your background, OP, it sounds like you're a strong candidate that would find grad school useful.

Because MBAs are a dime a dozen now, the most important point to reiterate (from previous posters) and consider: Choose your program carefully.

Go to the best one you can. Do your research and be selective. There are the top 20-25 programs, which have already been mentioned, and then there are the top schools with very specific specialties that are considered leaders in their respective fields. More than the information you learn (which does not have to be learned in one of these programs), the most important result of B-School are the contacts you make (both fellow students and alumni) for networking purposes, and the success those schools have with placement. Graduates who get hired by recruiters while still in school have significantly higher salaries than graduates who go out and get hired on their own.

One reason so many MBAs are worthless now is they're offered at every school, including all these online programs where you literally might not meet a single person as you study. What a disaster.

Geography counts too. If a certain region of the country has more opportunities for what you want to do, you need to go to school in that region if you can. Doesn't always make a difference, but helps a great deal.

Be ready for it. OP, sounds like your finances are still in a bit of disarray, or at least were. School is not the place to fix what ails you. It's grueling and all-consuming. Couples who were on shaky ground when they started school divorced. (In fact, all but two people in the program who were in relationships ended up getting divorced. And they were both Mormons, for what it's worth.) A few had nervous breakdowns, or drug problems.

And yes, snottiness from those who don't have the degree is everywhere, partially from the insecurities of various people in power positions, but also because the MBA mills have absolutely manufactured far too many degree holders, making the diploma by itself rather worthless.

Finally, on a personal note, though MBA school was not a good fit for me, I did finish. Didn't help me in the slightest with my career cause I changed career paths almost immediately after graduation, but I cannot fault the school for that. The irony of it all is that I am one of the best-known graduates the school's ever had, just in an area for which the school can't take any credit.

Best of luck to you!

R7 / R17 - thanks for coming clean. Not that I was taking your advice to heart. ;)

R14 - thanks for the detailed feedback - certainly a lot to chew on. Appreciate you taking the time to respond.

Woops. The last several responses before my last note above weren't showing up. Just wanted to also thank R22 for the frank and very helpful advice. Cheers!

Solid advice, R22. Thanks.

Muriel, Why is this thread from 2015 all of a sudden showing up? It’s April 19, 2020.... five years later. There aren’t even any recent comments to cause it to bump up. Is the DL broken or are the Soviet trolls at work?

Did you know CPAs, CFAs and PEngs are making more money than MBAs? If you want to make a lot of money, I’d recommend you to pursue CPA or PEng

R26 somebody messed with a time space continuum and set us back 5 years. Same thing is happening with his Zac effron threads.

I’d gladly go back five years ago, if some time warp is happening R26.

OP, did you finally get an MBA?

Early in my career I considered getting an MBA (primarily because many of my friends did), but then decided not to do it. By the time I retired, I was making $130K and was a director at a multi-national company. Would an MBA have helped me? Not likely.

It was for me. It gave me a great career at the only company I ever worked for and retired from at 54.

And I should qualify that by adding it's worth it if you use it appropriately, and have reasonable expectations. Don't expect it to be a key to the executive washroom. A good degree means little if your work doesn't exceed (not just meet) expectations.

MBA = Master of Bugger All.

I'll take being a well paid businessman over a well paid trained crook (lawyer) any day.

Yes. It was worth it for me. My undergrad study was largely in the humanities, and I was poor and needed a good job. I didn't have to incur that much debt because I went in the early 90s and to a top 10 public university for the MBA.

I'd say today it's probably worth it if you go to a top 20 school: they all have great placement services, internship programs and on-campus recruiting, plus strong alumni networks. If it's not a top 20 school, you may have to borrow a lot for a no good reason (i.e., no good job).

MBAs kill everything. It only qualifies you to manage something, but it gives you no expertise whatsoever in any substantive area of that which you hope to manage. How can you manage a pharmaceutical company if you lack expertise in pharmaceuticals? How can you manage a ballet company if you have no substantive knowledge of ballet? Look at what MBAs have done to our health care system by applying 'sound business management techniques' while lacking medical knowledge.

If you are a doctor and you want to move out of practicing medicine, then get an MBA. If you have a PhD in the Humanities and you want to move out of teaching and research and into administration, then get an MBA. If you are a seasoned opera singer and you want to push Peter Gelb out of his job at the Met, then get an MBA. But an MBA without substantive expertise of some other field is NOTHING. All you can do is inject capitalism into fields of study. No one needs more of that.

Most people with MBAs who are successful are people who work their way up through a company and learn it inside out. A fresh MBA degree does not qualify you to walk into a company at the top, and anyone who would hire a person just out of school in a high up position in the company is not someone who should be a hiring manager.

[quote]Muriel, Why is this thread from 2015 all of a sudden showing up? It’s April 19, 2020.... five years later. There aren’t even any recent comments to cause it to bump up. Is the DL broken or are the Soviet trolls at work?

If you can't see the bumping comment at R25, it's because you've already blocked the 2015 Bump Bitch.

MBAs were a big deal in the 80s. After that, not so much. Today it's all about IT.

No. If you have an undergrad business degree, there is no need to waste time and money on an MBA. Devote it to good work experience - much more valuable. I did it because I was a liberal arts undergrad. But in retrospect, the Wall St job is what ga em e my career not the MBA.

You also have to include the “opportunity cost” of an MBA - 2 years without salary = $120,000+

I have an MBA, and it was definitely worth it. There are some career paths for which it is a minimum requirement.

However, the return on the degree varies significantly based on WHERE you got the degree.

If you're working full-time and want to get one in the evenings, go with convenience.

If you intend to quit working and go full-time to school, forgoing both the work experience AND money, plus going into debt, then it's really not worth the "costs" unless you go to a top tier school - one of the 15 "top 10" schools. Outside the top 5 schools (Harvard, Wharton, Stanford, Northwestern, Chicago), the other 10 schools drift in and out of the top 10 in any given year and who is doing the ranking.

There are some career paths that it absolutely makes no difference, and you're better off working in that chosen industry and getting both practical experience and making contacts.

MBAs go stale over time. The information you learned in the 90s just does not apply to the current times.

I know someone who got an MBA at a top school and then took 6 years off to start a family and could not find a job when it suited her. She wanted a great executive position, but her education was somewhat dated she was told. Ooops. She started somewhere below where she would have started if she worked after graduation and eventually did well, but it took a lot longer, 7 years longer.

Job experience in the business world matters.

[quote]MBAs go stale over time. The information you learned in the 90s just does not apply to the current times.

This statement is much too broad a generalization.

The better programs not only provide instruction on the fad of the day - six sigma, business process improvement, remote whatever, reengineering - but also provide both the concrete analytic skills (finance, accounting, marketing) at a much more sophisticated level than undergrad, but also how to think about business problems in general.

Sure, idiotic ideas like 360 feedback, empowerment, etc. become stale. However, a proper education allow you to identify key drivers to differentiate between fads and actual innovation in the first place. The internet in the early days may have turned out to have been a fad or innovation. Only in hindsight do we know it to be innovation.

The fads tend to be one-size fits all / cut-and-paste, very prescriptive in telling you what to do and how to do it, have "gurus" who develop cult-like followings based on personality rather than actual innovation, and have a oily used car salesman-esque quality that says "you too can..."

From Porter's Five Forces model to BCG's Growth-Share matrix, the basic core techniques iare still valid for use today as they were when first proposed and provide some insight to resolving business problems. THAT is the value of an MBA.

These days the MBA has to be a feather in you cap to the other career experience you have that makes you an in-demand employee. Just getting an MBA for the sake of getting an MBA is not going help you if you don't have the work experience to go with it (unless you are at a top program).

And CFA? What's your take on it?

A CFA is a very specific certification. It has extremely limited use as a professional or job qualification - though obviously, if you actually studied and internalized the information, the content itself is quite useful in many finance-related areas.

It's different from a CPA in that you need a CPA to engage in certain accounting activities, as well as have mastery of the content. Certain jobs require a CPA. Granted, some jobs "require" a CFA, but it's generally not a regulatory / compliance or statutory requirement that the job activities be done by one, the notable the exception being some financial adviser/stockbroker jobs. Also, you can use a CFA at various levels to exempt from having to take some of the "series" exams or the qualification can be used in lieu of taking the exam.

Is it worth having - well, as with all things, it depends on what you intend to do with it and what the "cost" is. If you are working as a stockbroker or in the brokerage industry in general, it's probably worth considering. If you just generally working in finance, perhaps not.

R47, brilliant info — thanks!

I'm thinking of becoming an investment writer/financial journalist. Connected to finance but with the freedom to do what I want, work from home and avoid office politics.

[quote]No. If you have an undergrad business degree, there is no need to waste time and money on an MBA. Devote it to good work experience - much more valuable. I did it because I was a liberal arts undergrad. But in retrospect, the Wall St job is what ga em e my career not the MBA.

My view as well. I have a 4-year undergraduate business degree. At one point I looked into taking an EMBA, but when I studied the curriculum I saw that I'd be taking basically all the same courses I'd taken for my undergrad, and wasn't going to learn anything that I hadn't already learned either in school or - more importantly - on the job.

[quote}You also have to include the “opportunity cost” of an MBA - 2 years without salary = $120,000+

Ironically, an MBA will teach you the skills required to draft the business case and calculate the ROI of the degree, which in 95% of cases will either be negative or the same as if you'd invested the money in T-bills...

[quote]I'm thinking of becoming an investment writer/financial journalist. Connected to finance but with the freedom to do what I want, work from home and avoid office politics.

A CFA would be massive overkill for that kind of work, and it's also not an easy program to complete. My brother has a CFA (he's a very successful private wealth manager) and he likened it to going to school full time while also working full time, and like many people did not achieve a passing grade for Level 1 (only 38% of people do).

Mine is from NYU Stern. I didn't pay tuition, NYC did. One of the perks being employed by city, under Bloomberg administration. Still might be the case.

I thought it was useful for my career. NYU career office was effective with their support and they definitely invest a lot into alumni network, particularly if you are based in NYC. It opened a lot of doors for me.

R49, I like the intellectual stimuli, they apparently pay starting salary £40,000 for that line of work (I'm in the UK). Prefect.

I meant Perfect

bump

Anyone who’s paid for it is going to say it was worth it.

R54, so you would say it's not worth it? Why? If you have not done it, how do you know if it is worth it or not?

My ex had multiple degrees and an MBA because he wanted to stay in school and live with his parents through his 30s and not have to face the real world. He’s probably doing the same in his 40s.

It's useless in the real world.

Don't the naysayers on this thread just show how anti-intellectual the average American is?

One of my exes had an MBA and was upset at the way his retail boss talked to him, like his having an MBA should mean he should be treated better than his coworkers who didn’t.

So the consensus seems to be that it is only worth it if you go with an elite or near elite program.

I would think it has to do with where you are with your career. If its early, it would probably keep some doors from being shut. After that, it does not really impress without being bundled with some other quality that it would enhance. Like coming from a non-business degree holder.

I have not been impressed with the MBA holders that I manage. But that does not indicate anything. But by the time you hit your thirties, experience and OTJ accomplishments are more important than advanced degrees. But if you haven't had the opportunity to acquire these things, then I guess the degree cant hurt. Getting it mid-career screams "Nothing else is helping me advance, maybe an MBA will help".

I don’t think even elite MBAs are worth it. I have one and in retrospect I should have just stayed working and saved the money and the lost 2 years salary. Main benefit was being able to live a relatively carefree student life again in latter 20s. Life since has been an endless misery of corporate slavery.

CPA and CFA are more difficult than an MBA but totally worth it, especially CPA. You can virtually get a job everywhere in the world with your CPA designation. Getting a CPA however is a painful road

R62, thanks. That's the piece of advice I wanted to hear. (I'm not being sarcastic)

Looking at some of the MBA programs, they seem very wishy-washy, i.e. a module in leadership skills, etc....a bit pathetic. C'mon, you don't teach that, you either have it or you don't.

I’ll ditto the CPA. If you keep it current, you can get a job anywhere. The most valuable in the long run.

The calculus for an MBA has multiple components.

As I noted previously, not all jobs or career paths benefit from possessing an MBA.

There are three components that you should consider, the order of priority varies significantly and should be weighted apporpriately.

1. The actual MBA content, e.g., finance, marketing, decision and risk analysis, economics, operations, organizational behavior, etc. While there is some overlap between undergrad and graduate school, an MBA program will go into greater depth. Also, you will be in courses with people whose knowledge and real world experience will add to the depth of discussion. Most business schools also have "case method" courses - Harvard and University of VA / Darden are exclusively case method. The level of discussion will be more in depth than what you get at undergrad.

2. Credential / ticket punch / minimum entry requirement. Having an MBA from an "elite" school (see previous response) has value both to create credibility and many industries require it. McKinsey and the killer Bs (less poor Booz Allen) require it (or similar) to enter as an associate. These firms all paid $160K+ and $40K+ bonuses for first year associates out of MBA programs. Investment banking firms like Goldman Sachs also recruit heavily from top tier programs. It is significantly more difficult, verging on impossible, to get a job at these firms without an MBA from a top tier school. Sure, it's always possible, but very difficutl.

3. Networking and personal contacts. Your classmates and friends from these programs form a network of contacts within and across industries, as well as around the world. The top programs draw from people around the world. Alums are more usually open to helping out. Plus, your actual friends and classmates from these programs frequently end up in very senior positions over time and provide contacts.

Now, some people are NEVER going to be particularly successful no matter how smart, what degrees, or where they went to school. There is a component to success in business that transcends competence and frequently actual job or technical competence impedes success.

Finally, many industries look with disdain on such degrees. Companies in tech and startups often don't care or may even think you're too "rigid" a thinker.

CPA requirements vary slightly state. In general:

- US citizen. Over the age of 18

- Attended/attending a US accredited college or university with a concentration in accounting

- Currently have or working towards a 150 semester hour degree (ex. BMAcc or Master’s Degree in accounting or business)

- Work or plan on working in the accounting industry. Public accounting firms are preferred but private accounting jobs are accepted by most states as long as one of your supervisors is a CPA that can sign off on your work.

R55, it’s human nature to defend one’s choices. Especially if it was a choice intended to impress others.

I have no idea how many MBAs were a mistake or a bad investment. I’m sure there are plenty of people who are glad they made the investment. But if they regret it, you probably won’t hear about it.

I have one - and though I wouldn’t say I regret it, I don’t recommend it. The good thing was a justification to take 2 years more of some level of freedom in your late 20s - but not having a gap in your resume.

R65 It is also human nature to downplay the accomplishments of one's peers. Or to criticize motives and rewards. Maybe that is why you are more likely to hear from those who disparage?

I don't have an MBA. I did pick up some IT certifications when that really would help your career. They have all expired now and I am not going to sit for more tests because that would not add anything of significance to my resume. I am sure that an MBA would have had a better shelf life and I certainly don't equate IT certifications to one.

But when I am looking at someone, an MBA is only an extra. It is not a decision maker or deal breaker.