Your view of Will & Grace

I've long felt some guilt for not liking this show but I dislike it for the same reason I dislike Sex and The City; the focus on humble-bragging, hypocritical metropolitans, the most obnoxious species on Earth. It had is funny moments but I just couldn't take its underlying smugness. At least with "Seinfeld", this cluelessness was satirized by the main characters.

Eric McCormack was and is delicious, though.

Karen Walker was the only gay person the show

Get over it, Wilma.

It played second fiddle to "Seinfeld" which had just said farewell to NBC. NBC needed a new Must TV show and Will & Grace was the only crap it had at its disposal. It really wasn't funny, which is why no one quotes or cares about it, not to mention that the cast can't find work.

The cast of Seinfeld (except JLD) can't find work either.

It was a gay version of [italic]Friends[/italic] and I hated both for the same reasons: unfunny, smug and unrelatable. Other shows before and after had gay characters who weren't as promiscuous as Jack or as needy as Will.

It was written by callow and uncomfortable ADD Jewish boys who treated gayness as a frat joke (frats for which they were never rushed) and excuse to recycle jokes from their grandfathers' old radio comedy show, and their fathers' old sit-coms.

I thought it was actually funny for a while--but it lasted too long, like most shows. Modern Family seems headed the same way.

Frankly, I found WILL & GRACE a step backward, especially a year after the ELLEN coming out episode, which made history for being, not only the first US TV show to have an out gay star headlining a show, but the first gay lead in a show. Granted, there had been gay characters before, starting in the '70s (I think Billy Crystal's 'Jodie Dallas' in SOAP was the first), but they were supporting or minor characters and almost always a walking stereotype, i.e. effete.

Anyway, ELLEN was criticized for having the character Ellen Morgan's 'lifestyle' shoved down their throats in its 5th and final season. At the end of Season 4, Ellen came out, so naturally the follow-up season would deal with her exploring her new-found freedom, as she dates and discovers the 'gay community.' But this was apparently too much for people in 1997/1998. Adding insult to injury, ABC began airing a disclaimer before each episode that featured a 'gay storyline," especially if it featured a kiss between Ellen and her girlfriend(s). At the end of the day, Ellen DeGeneres decided to pull the plug on the show.

Then four months later, WILL & GRACE debuted. I remember there being a big deal about how 'Will Truman' was the first gay MALE lead on a TV show., but W&G avoided the 'blunders' committed by ELLEN. First of all, 'Will' was cast with a straight, married actor Secondly, he was given a STRAIGHT & FEMALE co-lead in 'Grace.' Though 'Will' was seemingly 'gay acting,' they gave him an ef-feminate sidekick ('Jack') , a gay minstrel act. Thus, the show gave viewers two types of gays that were tolerable -- sexless and stereotypical. I mean, for the first two seasons, 'Will' was celibate. The reason we were given was that he had just broken up with his longtime partner, and he wasn't ready to start dating again. How convenient. Meanwhile, 'Grace' also broke up with her fiance at the beginning of the show, but that didn't stop her from dating multiple guys. In fact, we were allowed to witness 'Grace's' dating/sex life. But once 'Will' started dating again (though not frequently), we hardly saw anything. Same with Jack. Even though he was constantly referred to as a 'whore' and how promiscuous he was, it all happened off-screen for laughs. Even after 'Karen' and 'Stan' divorced, she was allowed to be (and be seen as) promiscuous.

I did find the show funny at times, but, like I said, it was a step backward from ELLEN's revolutionary coming out episode and final season.

There was nothing groundbreaking, nor gay, two characters were supposed to be gays, but very conservative way, nor very funny, nor good acting. Boring show.

I have friends who like it very much. And I do think it went a long way toward normalizing gays, and brought a lot of big names to the show who normally didn't do sitcoms. Good for all that.

It wasn't my taste. Will and Grace were both dull yuppies; Jack was the equivalent of Jimmie Walker on "Good Times"; and Karen was just an attempt to do an American Patsy ... even though Megan Mullally made it entertaining. But I just didn't laugh at it, and I didn't understand why any of these people even would KNOW each other. (I know, you just had to "go with it," but I never was that interested.)

Last, it used the most tired gay trope of all: snarky, bitchy putdown humor overlaid with a glaze of nacreous permasentimentality (see: they really do love each other!). I'm glad it existed, I guess, but it felt like watching a show from another time.

It was a necessary first step for gays being on TV regularly. If it showed Will as some whore, it would have been cancelled.

We have to admit that a major portion of America has to watch a show to keep it on the air. Will and Grace was a very comfortable way to introduce America to gays on a regular basis--Look, they're just like you and me! And it worked.

I see no reason to criticize this show--it was safe and funny, exactly what was palatable for most Americans.

When Ellen came out and started dating on her show, the show got cancelled immediately. It would make no sense for TV to try it again.

It was funny in a British sort of way. A 90s version of Are You Being Served.

It wasn't "real" though I don't know that I disagree with whoever it was that publicly said W&G actually did a fair amount to get people used to the idea of gays. (As R12 has said, as well.)

[quote]W&G actually did a fair amount to get people used to the idea of gays.

So much so that they proposed the Federal Marriage Amendment while it was still on the air.

It was awful! But I got the best of Karen. I was banging Stan Walker while Karen was out. Stan was really fat, stunk, and nasty. He tipped really well though. Got my own penthouse now In Trump Tower.

"There was nothing groundbreaking, nor gay, two characters were supposed to be gays, but very conservative way, nor very funny, nor good acting."

Word salad.

I thought if you're gay, you HAVE TO LIKE Will and Grace.

So many gays strongly say they hate W&G, which I can't understand at all. They won't be happy until they show barebacking fucking on primetime.

R18 are you serious? They would never show that on network TV. Not even premium cable channels like HBO or Showtime. That's reserved for porn.

I had very mixed feelings about WILL & GRACE, just as I did about QUEER AS FOLK (a very different show), but I think it's interesting that almost no show since with gay characters at the center has succeeded. Gays exist as part of a larger ensemble now, as on MODERN FAMILY, but not as the center of the action. THE NEW NORMAL, PARTNERS, Sean's solo sitcom after W&G all crashed and burned.

It's almost as if we've lost ground in the last decade when we should be gaining.

I won't even mention LOOKING....

We should not have turned over The Gay Movement to the US Victim Hierarchy, r20

[quote] They won't be happy until they show barebacking fucking on primetime.

Then we'll still complain that they're setting a bad example for gay youth. Unless of course they're married and monogamous, then bring it on.

[quote] It's almost as if we've lost ground in the last decade when we should be gaining.

That's because TV still insists on making shows with inoffensive, funny gays.

Say what you want about Shonda Rhimes, but she's at least had some gay characters that are interesting/less than saints/over 40/not pretty. Cyrus on Scandal is pretty much the devil's wingman.

It will take another decade of representations where we're flawed, multilayered human beings -- and not Problem of the Week, Saints and Sinners or Funny Third Gay From The Left Who Will Do Your Hair and Make Over Your Living Room -- before TV will actually start having a deeper effect.

“I think ‘Will and Grace’ probably did more to educate the American public than almost anything anybody’s ever done so far. And I think — people fear that which is different. Now they’re beginning to understand.”

Thus spake Vice President Joe Biden in May 2012 on "Meet The Press."

Whether it's absolutely true or not is debatable. But if it convinced or converted even a handful of the Joe Bidens out ther in Middle America, then more power to "W&G."

I think Tim Gunn seems very "real" and obviously gay

[quote] I think Tim Gunn seems very "real" and obviously gay

He's a stereotype.

He may be stereotypical, but he's very true to himself. It's not some "put-on" character. Any of his former students or colleagues can confirm it.

[quote]The few episodes where Will and Jack help Karen's cousin come out of the closet were so beautifully and sensitively written that they spoke so deeply to me.

Wow, OP. Well, I'm glad they were helpful to you but I found those particular episodes extremely offensive. Stereotypical, judgmental, unrealistic even by TV standards. Will and Jack were the gay Amos 'n Andy teaching Karen's cousin how to be Jimmie Walker and carry on decades of demeaning cliches. We're supposed to be okay with it because the show was "gay-friendly" so it's okay to laugh at the outdated stereotypes but to me it's just as offensive as the gay panic jokes in straight-bro comedies.

I thought the show was just not funny. I could not relate to any of the characters because they were just nasty. It was a pretty cynical sort of humor I just couldn't care for. The gay aspect, be it real or just stereotypical, didn't matter to me because the characters were simply unwatchable to me, especially in the second half of its run.

I skipped the first couple of seasons, having sampled the show and not finding it funny, plus the leads were just too unlikeable and generally uninteresting. Only later did I realize if you just focused on Karen and Rosario, the show could be great. The others were endurable only as they served to assist the Karen scenes, such as Karen in her nun's habit at the Sound of Music.

Double checking those names below I'm reminded Alexis Arquette lost the part of Jack to Sean Hayes. Jack as a tranny is just what would have put the show over.

I love it. The complaint about the gay characters never being shown in homosexual situations is legit, (Karen and Jack on the other hand seemed to kiss every other episode), but I don't feel that this detracts much fom the overall impression. Most sitcoms don't seem to feature a lot of overt sexuality anyway.

It varied wildly in quality. The writing was really funny in Seasons 2-5 but I remember that at some point they decided to start bringing in "guest stars" to make up for lazy, mediocre scripts. The episodes with Madonna, Janet Jackson, JLo, Demi Moore, etc, are pretty good examples of that. Also, for some reason, I found the character of Leo to be really tedious, which coincided with the whole "Will and Grace decide to have a baby together" storyline, which was odious and offensive for a number of reasons.

[quote] It really wasn't funny, which is why no one quotes or cares about it, not to mention that the cast can't find work.

1. It's quoted all the time, even on DL.

2. Eric McCormack has his own series on TNT; Debra Messing on NBC. Mulally has been in several series and on Broadway. Hayes was also on Broadway, hosted the Tonys, has been in several series, and produced others (Hollywood Game Night, Hot in Cleveland.)

I liked the first 5 years, but after that I think it is unwatchable.

"Will and Jack were the gay Amos 'n Andy teaching Karen's cousin how to be Jimmie Walker and carry on decades of demeaning cliches. "

You really need to watch this sequence again. Barry rebels against the stereotype Will and Jack try to make him into. The message is very much you can be gay however works for you.

[quote]It was written by callow and uncomfortable ADD Jewish boys who treated gayness as a frat joke (frats for which they were never rushed) and excuse to recycle jokes from their grandfathers' old radio comedy show, and their fathers' old sit-coms.

What does their religion/ethnicity have to do with anything?

r20 You can add John Goodman's late, lamented(probably by no one other than me) series "Normal, Ohio" to your list.

I remember the one where all the straight men in a neighborhood were hoping Will and Jack would buy a house on their street so their property values would go up.

You freaks are delusional.

I remember being a kid in the '80s, when the word 'gay' was never mentioned, or if it was, it was in the same breath as AIDS. I remember in 1989, when showing two men in bed together caused a network to lose $2 million in advertising, and no one would go near it.

It was after Will & Grace that public opinion toward us, and particularly same-sex marriage, started changing—after constantly seeing a gay man as a main character on Must-See TV (and then on reruns nightly, sometimes twice).

Too bad if Will wasn't enough of a ho or queen to meet your personal backseat-driving standards. There would be no Modern Family etc. if not for W&G — it normalized gays in the best way.

R18 What channels do you watch?!

The first two seasons were dull, middle four were great, the last two it headed downhill fast. So many easily offended, uptight people on DL these days.

When Karen was promiscuous, she'd return snickering and bragging. Neither Will nor Jack got to do so.

[quote]Hayes was also on Broadway, hosted the Tonys, has been in several series, and produced others (Hollywood Game Night, Hot in Cleveland.)

He's also been the executive producer of all episodes of Grimm and apparently owns the Hazy Mills Productions company with Todd Milliner which produces Grimm and other shows.

Personally I sort of liked W&G when it first came out but when I've tried to rewatch episodes it's been painful. I did enjoy some of the jokes and loved the idea of gay sitcom being so popular. I liked Will, tolerated Grace, loathed (and sometimes liked) Jack and loved Karen and Rosario. Overall the characters worked well together and they were all more or less likable. Best thing about the show is how it made being gay look ok for the masses. That alone makes it a hero show for me, even if I have no desire to watch it anymore.

I can't believe R20 could be that pessimistic. Several bad sitcoms with gay characters failed at a time when sitcoms have been at their least popular in decades, and the best of them (The New Normal) was mediocre and doomed by its placement on NBC when the network was collapsing. "Friends" couldn't have succeeded on NBC under those conditions.

More importantly: since "Will & Grace," we had an actor playing a notorious heterosexual womanizer on a CBS sitcom come out, with little controversy. We had an actual sex symbol starring in a popular cable show come out, even when it was clear that the actor had aspirations of much greater stardom. Currently the most popular sitcom features an openly gay man in a leading role playing a straight character, and the most acclaimed sitcom of the past decade, which also happens to be insanely popular, features two gay men in leading roles (ignore their Emmy placements; all six adults are the leads, as with "Friends"). "Glee," during its early years of immense popularity, essentially made its gay male couple into the romantic leads equal to the straight couple, while giving progressively more screen time to its lesbians until circumstances completely unrelated to their characters' sexuality forced both actresses to depart.

The two past hosts of the Academy Awards were a lesbian and a gay man, and they were chosen precisely because they were considered mainstream and inoffensive in a way that previous choices (Seth MacFarlane and Eddie Murphy, who quit before the ceremony) were most certainly not.

I'd take that progress over "The New Normal" getting a renewal and limping on for several seasons before its inevitable cancellation.

[quote] You really need to watch this sequence again. Barry rebels against the stereotype Will and Jack try to make him into. The message is very much you can be gay however works for you.

I admit it's been awhile since I've watched those episodes but I seem to recall after he told Will and Jack off he then returned to Will's apartment and continued with their stereotypical makeover. And it was only after he shaved his beard, lost weight and started dressing like them did Will find him attractive. A nice speech about individuality rendered completely moot.

There was just too much Will & Grace. A hit TV series should know when to stop and not run it into the ground. How many episodes? Over 100 at least. Finally one watched it for the guest stars: Suzanne Pleshette, Madonna, Glenn Close, that hilarious one with Matt Damon, etc. and of course Debbie's appearances.

I didn't love the show, it was a mediocre sitcom that did manage to be funny a lot of the time and was helped tremendously by Mullaly and Hayes.

Queer As Folk came out about two years into W&G's run and that series would not have happened without W&G. And finally we got to see gay guys who didn't mince to let you know they were gay.. The lead, Brian , may have been the sort of promiscuous ho many of us didn't want straights to see us as, but he had no stereotypical feminine mannerisms. And he wasn't a closet case, he was an out'n'proud gay man.

And then there was Queer Eye too--they may have been stereotypes and then some too, but they helped normalize gays in that again, we were there, every week, and once you get to know someone it's hard to hate them.

So yeah, Will and Grace did us a world of good.

I got annoyed with it while it was on but watching it now it's hard to believe it was on mainstream TV. It can be quite witty and campy so logo should run it 24/7.

Never loved it. Gradually gave up as it turned into "Jack and Karen."

Liked it when it was fresh and new but it quickly became smug and VERY self-aware.

The stunt-casting got old and started to look desperate.

Never saw a single episode of the final few seasons.

Why do you all think the "concerned moms for 'Murica" got their panties in a knot over every episode of W&G, and every other show that had the audacity to show a gay person that wasn't near death or actually died? Remember, there were boycotts and petitions (a lot harder to pull together pre-Facebook & Twitter) and a concerted effort to scrub anything that even remotely portrayed gay characters as anything other than sad, pathetic and fatally wounded. Yes, Will and Jack were both stereotypes (and Karen and Rosario weren't?) but for the first time EVER a gay-themed television show broke into the top 10 and stayed there.

And like R25 said, if a stereotypical portrayal of gay characters normalized homosexuality such that the sitting Vice President references the show in relation to our greatest civil rights victory in a generation, it wasn't just a silly sitcom worthy of our disdain. We all owe Mutchnick and Kohan a big thank you.

Well, I liked it. A lot - and I don't usually go for cutesy, quirky, or broad stereotypes. Haven't watched it in a few years, but it was fresh and funny and charming, plus I much preferred this fake fantasy of NYC life than Friends', it was a little more yuppie-skewing and yet darker in tone, I would have loved to live like them. It lost its way in the over-guested last 2 seasons but was still always at least entertaining and well written. The pop culture references (a staple of the sitcom format) were always more intelligent and less mainstream than those of its peers. And I found the acting to be fine. Shelley Morrison gave terrific deadpan, McCormack was a solid comic 'straight man' and balanced that well with the zanier moments, and Mullally was a great scene stealer and differentiated Karen from the obvious Patsy clone she was written as with her childlike mannerisms. Sean Hayes is an amazing physical comedian and had some surprisingly moving moments ("I'm not very good, am I?" at his cringeworthy acting audition), whilst Messing deservingly was compared to Lucille Ball - that dinner party double episode with Leo's ex (played by Mira Sorvino) where Grace quickly unravels was a whirlwind display of hysterical comedy.

Compared to other contemporaries, it wasn't as smug and self-important as Fraiser, as flat and unappealing as Mad About You, had more scope than The Nanny and Just Shoot Me, and had a lot of heart that Seinfeld lacked. It's dated very well despite the changing gay community - shit, even as a '90s sitcom' it stands very close to the top, if you're criticising it as a 'gay sitcom' you're being ridiculous: nothing else since has either it's height of quality or its longevity. Maybe Will's sexuality was eased into the show, but hell, well into its run I was shocked to see a gay interracial kiss (McCormack and Taye Diggs) and relationship on Network TV without it being made into a big deal or political statement. Look, even 'Empire' and the like can't manage that a decade later.

And while the guests got tiring, the work from people like Gene Wilder, Eileen Brennan, Lily Tomlin, Parker Posey, Minnie Driver, Lesley Ann Warren, Blythe Danner, Debbie Reynolds, Sandra Bernhard, Leslie Jordan, Molly Shannon, Sydney Pollack, Janet Jackson, Glenn Close, James Earl Jones, Demi Moore, John Cleese, Shohreh Aghdashloo, Coco Peru, Rosanna Arquette, Emily Rutherfurd (one of the best recurring guests), J. Lo, Alec Baldwin, Christine Ebersole, Kevin Bacon, Patti LuPone, Britney Spears, Rip Taylor, Joan Collins, Macaulay Culkin, Laura Kightlinger, Cher, Michael Douglas, Tim Bagley, Edie Falco+Chloe Sevigny (a GREAT offbeat pairing), Dan Futterman, Sara Gilbert, Natasha Lyonne, Candice Bergen, Madonna, Bobby Cannavale, Woody Harrelson, Gregory Hines, Leigh-Allyn Baker, Veronica Cartwright, Beau Bridges, Michael Angarano, Rosie O'Donnell, Nicollette Sheridan, Bernadette Peters, Ellen Albertini Dow, Suzanne Pleshette, Geena Davis, Alan Arkin, John Slattery, Jeff Goldblum, Camryn Manheim, Dylan McDermott, Tracey Ullman, Wanda Sykes, Sharon Stone, the list goes on and on. Great, often NYC-based actors who sometimes gave career best work, sometimes got to do something way outside their comfort zone, and were always well cast.

Attention: Beverly Leslie is a homosexual.

"Attention REPUBLICANS", R53.

W&G is given too much credit here. It was ELLEN that begat W&G. Her being the first gay lead in a show allowed NBC to step forward and create a series with a gay lead but not make it too gay lest it alienate viewers, like Ellen had done. So Will was cast with a married, straight man and given a straight female co-lead and was never allowed to date (at least for the first two seasons) or be as affectionate with his dates as Grace was allowed to be. Pretty much all Will was Grace's pet and security blanket. Will didn't have his own identity outside of Grace. In short, W&G avoided making the same "mistakes" that doomed ELLEN by making the gays sexless. According to the show, gays are good as BFFs but their sex/love life is not something we need to see. The show may have made the concept of gay (albeit an oversimplified one) palatable to middle America, but W&G only got there because of ELLEN's historical episode/final season.

R55 Whatever you say, Ms. DeGeneres.

Gayness was the butt of about 85% of the "jokes."

"Currently the most popular sitcom features an openly gay man in a leading role playing a straight character"

What show?

R58 I'm guessing the poster is referring to Jim Parsons in THE BIG BANG THEORY.

Incidentally, openly gay Neil Patrick Harris also concurrently played a womanizer in HOW I MET YOUR MOTHER for 9 seasons until it ended last year.

[quote]Incidentally, openly gay Neil Patrick Harris also concurrently played a womanizer in HOW I MET YOUR MOTHER for 9 seasons until it ended last year.

See the first sentence of the second paragraph at R44.

Thanks R52 i.e Long Winded Lenny - I appreciate your point of view on W & G :) I liked it too, but could not have said it as well as you did.

Sick, hate-filled show.

Before the final season, the producers said that they were considering having Will start dating women.

Awful, self-loathing show.

Serious, R62? Geez!

I do recall the finale was probably the worst in TV History.

R62 is spouting nonsense. Hate the show for the show, not what you imagined it was.

"I do recall the finale was probably the worst in TV History."

Millions of Seinfeld fans would disagree.

Self-hating gays are the biggest apologists out there...

It's always fun to fake-bump tits with Colonists on their little comedy series.

I never let Lourdes watch them, though.

I liked the first few seasons - but like most shows, the story line got a little thin. It was one of the most popular shows on TV - you queens are so damn critical sometimes.

I enjoyed it - loved Karen, loved the guest stars, although Jack usually got on my nerves. BUT it was a great ground breaking show.

As a sitcom, I could take it or leave it. It was occassionally hilarious, sometimes kinda middling, but by and large a pleasant enough diversion for half an hour.

It's impact, however, was enormous. It will undeniably and deservedly earn itself a spot in history as a milestone in the march toward gay acceptance, tolerance, and equality.

And yes, I really fucking hate my it's / its error in my post.

"Self-hating gays are the biggest apologists out there..."

Criticize the show, dear. Ad hominem attacks just show you have no real argument.

[quote]Will & Grace was groundbreaking in that it was the first TV show centered around gay characters.

You've got to be shitting me.

The Seinfeld finale was a big Fail, but they at least tried to bumble their way through a bad story.

Will and Grace just threw some stuff together.

Why this show is offensive to any gay man with a brain:

Half of that blog is blather, the other half is nonsense.

[quote] Self-hating gays are the biggest apologists out there...

MARY!

Will was boring,Grace annoyed me,and there was no way I was going to believe a youngish queen in New York city dressed as badly as Jack. I only really watched it because I had seen Bobby canavale was going to be on. When he left,I was out of there.

I was watching Queer as Folk, a REAL groundbreaking series.

[quote] I was watching Queer as Folk, a REAL groundbreaking series.

It was groundbreaking in the sense that it gave [italic]Supertrain[/italic] a real competition for the worst acting and writing ever seen in an American dramatic TV series.

Grace should have been a man named Greg and he should have been Will's boyfriend. Then maybe the show would have at least been watchable.

R77 He never left. He was in the final episodes.

I agree R39; life was very different before Will & Grace. It got better because of that show.

[quote]life was very different before Will & Grace. It got better because of that show.

And what was I, chopped liver?

This show changed nothing:

Will & Grace made gay men palpable for the great unwashed.

It led directly to gay marriage being legalized in record time for a civil rights struggle.

Bullshit, it pandered to what "straight" network executives think gay men want to see and it reinforced "straight" "people's" stereotypes of us and made them feel justified in believing them to be based in reality.

Even before this crap premiered, Tim Maculan's unnamed gay waiter on the hugely underrated [italic]Cybill[/italic] was much less offensive and far more encouraging: he was the only character on that show who wasn't a psychological mess, and he was the only one who could let go of a failed relationship in a timely fashion.

R86, even though W&G certainly wasn't perfect in any way it still was ten times better and much funnier than Cybill. I liked Cybill Shepherd in Moonlighting but Cybill the show was unfunny and tryhard.

I watched [italic]Cybill[/italic] on Hulu and laughed hysterically. I burned through the whole show together, and she and Christine Baranski had something that just worked. I couldn't even finish an episode of W&G, although I tried.

[quote]The pop culture references (a staple of the sitcom format) were always more intelligent and less mainstream than those of its peers.

MAD Magazine called them out on that hilariously in their parody [italic]Wilt & Craze[/italic]: when someone didn't understand one of not-Jack's references, he said "It's hip, it's trendy, and it spares our writers from having to actually write a joke."

[quote]I burned through the whole show in a matter of weeks.

Fixed.

R86 You're crazy. Only middle-aged women and gays watched Cybill, and it bombed in reruns. W&G was watched by everyone and is still going strong today.

And Baranski was the only reason to watch Cybill, not for a sniping gay waiter who no one remembers the actor or the character's name.

[quote] And Baranski was the only reason to watch Cybill, not for a sniping gay waiter who no one remembers the actor or the character's name.

They never spoke his name, and I just posted the actor's name in the original post. And "crazy" is an ableist slur, which makes you a bigot for using it. Fuck off, bigot.

[quote] W&G was watched by everyone and is still going strong today.

Watched by EVERYONE? You've got to be kidding me. Ratings for network TV have been in decline since the late 1980s and are still sinking. When it was new, the only person I knew who actually liked it was a conservative Christian friend of my mother's. What does that tell you?

There was a great take-down of the show on the old Jump the Shark website, and even on its successor site, "Day One" is still the top vote-getter.

JTS user reads them to filth:

[quote] I have to admit that I didn't watch this show when it first aired. After Seinfeld and Friends, any 4-person or ensemble cast show looks like a carbon copy. Then I saw my first episode. Good f***ing grief... Who ever gave this pile of festering crap the green light? Generally, I don't have a problem with bad TV (outside of the fact that it's bad and should be cancelled), but this show definitely JTS whenever it started to get the idea that it had "something to say," that it was some kind of champion for gay rights or gay acceptance. I don't know when that first happened, but only the most shallow person would agree that W&G has any value whatsoever in the arena of social commentary. I know several gay people, and NONE of them act like that flaming goon Jack. The episode I saw was where he tried to sell a subway seat cushion to Will's boss (?) and broke into a jingle to sell it despite his "friend's" objections. What a jagoff. Then, in an exchange that should embarra! ss even someone working in the television industry, Will's boss agrees to sell or market Jack's "Subway Tush," or whatever he calls it. Not only that, but the company wants to agressively back the product. Follow this, now. Jack (a gay man) ACTUALLY says to the boss, "You mean you want to put everything you have into my Tush?" Is anyone else as dumbstruck as I am by that pathetic excuse for a one-liner? To top it off, Jack delivers the line as if there were NO sexual innuendo in the statement at all, and EVERY line on this piece of trash program seems to have sexual innuendo. It's as if a bunch of 7-graders are writing it. (By the way, did anyone notice that Will's boss was played by one of the Malachi brothers from Happy Days? The ones who smashed into Fonzie's car during the demolition derby?) This show capitalizes on the current trendiness of homosexuality and should be an insult to gays everywhere. This show presents gays about as well as Amos & Andy portrayed blacks.! For them to act like they're some kind of champion for gays is presumptious and insulting. To any gays reading this, if you want to be accepted by mainstream society (and I doubt that some of you do, because that would deprive you of your victim status, which many of you thrive on), simply live your lives. People are stupid, but they catch on eventually. Folks that were once afraid of blacks have (mostly) realized that black and white people are mostly the same in many ways. If the "gay community" wants to be accepted and not assaulted for who they are, it needs to be patient and let America wake up slowly. Shoving it down our throats (no pun intended) with mincing flamers like Jack or boring slugs like Will will only hurt your cause. For your own sake, boycott this shamelessly acted, childishly written tripe. This is one of the worst shows I have ever seen.

And after some fangurl who is probably a fat frau by now insulted him and accused him of homophobia, he read her and the show to filth:

[quote][quote]Recent poster: your comments deserve a response. Here it is. (I should mention that my post didn't have anything to do with my feelings towards gay people, it had to do with my feelings towards W&G. There IS a difference.) I do not "find offense in the sexually suggestive one-liners," as you suggested. It just gets old after a while. I'm sorry that you misunderstood me. Next, what offends you about the phrase "current trendiness of homosexuality?" You didn't explain that. Certainly you wouldn't deny that homosexuality is trendy, would you? It's not your fault; I didn't mean to blame you. If that's what you read into it, that's your mistake. Next, I didn't mention that I know some gay people to impress you or anyone else. I only meant to illustrate that I am aware, unlike many people, that gay people don't always conform to the stereotypes portrayed on this show. Again, you misunderstood me. When I put quotes around the words gay community, I intended to indicate that ! this phrase has been over-used so much in the media that it has ceased to mean anything. To refer to a group of people as diverse as homosexuals by simply saying "the gay community" demeans them by reducing them to the most common denominator. That offends me when it's done to any group of people, in excess. If it doesn't offend homosexuals themselves, that's their business. Again, you misunderstood me. Next, you completely misquoted me when you summarized for me my argument comparing the civil rights movement to gays. The tactic you used was to demonize me by reading things into my words that were never there. It's a common strategy (ad hominem, to attack the person, not the argument), but not a valid one. I think it's great that homosexuality can be a subject for a TV series, but this series simply happens to suck. Did you ever see Soap? You'll remember that Billy Crystal played a gay character on that show. THAT was ground-breaking, and it was funny as hell! Jody Campbell was a real human character. Jack is just a ninny. W&G is not busting down any walls. They are, as I said, capitalizing on what's ALREADY getting a lot of press. If that doesn't bother you, I'm not going to try to persuade you otherwise. If some gay kid finds acceptance because of a TV show, well, fine and dandy. Can the show NOT suck? Is that too much to ask? If W&G does make homosexuals feel better about themselves, then it does better as therapy than it does as a show. And don't DARE try to suggest that I am somehow at fault for people who hate themselves to the point of suicide, or that I don't care. THAT was low. You must have really gotten yourself worked up to take a cheap shot like that. Finally, I did not try to tell you how to live your life. Another tactic that's quite popular; going on the defensive when I didn't do what you accuse me of doing. Also an invalid strategy. Live your life however you want to. I'm not trying to tell you how to "fit in;" what you perceiv! ed as a directive on how to live was simply advice. Speaking for me and maybe one or two other heterosexuals, WE GET IT! You're gay and you're a wonderful person! Okay? Can we move on now? That's all I meant to relate; exasperation with the same old, same old. What more do you want from me? To enjoy a show that sucks? To become gay? To give all my money to all your friends who feel bad about themselves? Think about it; what do you REALLY want from a person who has no problem with gay people being who they are? How much MORE do you expect? You say you feel victimized? Don't place the blame at my feet. And get the fuckin chip off your shoulder.

All y'all crackas are lookin' for a fight

If you compare Will and Jack to kid (clap) DYN-O-MITE!

"And "crazy" is an ableist slur,"

And with this you lost all credibility.

Did I mention they passed me, an actual gay man, over because they thought I was, in their words, "too straight"?

Megan Mullally admits Karen Walker is just Maryanne Thorpe 2.0. Scroll to the comments for some good dirt on Eric McC; turns out he's a bit of a douchehole:

Never watched it for more than a few moments but judging from the bits I saw it looked dreadful.

NBC just used it as a placeholder for a better show that they were hoping would come along. It never did, thus W&G managed to stay around as long as it did. It's totally forgettable. The people behind it have produced one disaster after the next. W&G was vapid.

NBC never managed to put any hits between [italic]Friends[/italic] and [italic]Will & Grace[/italic] because you would have had to watch those shows to see the shows between them. The people, and I use the term loosely, from the former show have also left a trail of bombs behind (including the gone-in-two-weeks-thanks-to-GLAAD [italic]Work It[/italic]) since the wonderful day when it finally went off the air.

Once on [italic]The Simpsons[/italic] around 2002 or therabout, Homer said to Smithers, "marijuana makes anything seem funny, even that show that follows [italic]Friends[/italic]." They didn't bother to name one because they knew it would be gone before the episode reached the air nine months after the script was done.

The success of these shows means people will tolerate bad comedy as long as it tells them what they want to hear. Clapter is not laughter.

Like most sitcoms it all depended upon the writing. The best written episodes move along quickly, making you laugh often and now and then making you think. The worst ones are like three long hours in one half hour show. W&G in the earlier seasons had more wins than losses but, as with all sitcoms, it went on too long. Grace was the expendable one. Every time she looked at a guy we had three episodes about their supposed romance. (Although the one where she takes Woody Harrelson shopping almost redeems that misbegotten relationship.) The most tiresome aspect to Jack was the whole "you're fat, Will" when Eric was in much better shape than Sean, whose character never really looked hot. (Of course most whores think they are more attractive than they are.) Debbie Reynolds the best occasional player.

Yeah, it was bizarre how Jack was always busting Will for being fat, his thinning hair, and for being ugly -- but he was none of those things! McCormack was very cute and hunky as Will. He dressed impeccably (especially in that suit), had a nice head of hair, and those big brown eyes! Not to mention that natural olive skin which complemented him.

Jack, on the other hand, was pasty white and a bad dresser, and sorry but Sean Hayes doesn't have an attractive face.

"Yeah, it was bizarre how Jack was always busting Will for being fat, his thinning hair, and for being ugly -- but he was none of those things! McCormack was very cute and hunky as Will. He dressed impeccably (especially in that suit), had a nice head of hair, and those big brown eyes! Not to mention that natural olive skin which complemented him. Jack, on the other hand, was pasty white and a bad dresser, and sorry but Sean Hayes doesn't have an attractive face."

Hmmm. I wonder if there was some meaning to that...

Well Jack seemed a lot like a Datalounger. Bitchy bitchy bitchy. And delusional.

R106 It was part of Jack's character to be rude, and no one was supposed to take him seriously.

Sometimes to needle a friend, you may make an insult that is untrue. Or you will be snippy out of an insecurity of your own.

Keep hanging in there, I'm sure you'll catch on.

[quote] Jack, on the other hand, was pasty white and a bad dresser, and sorry but Sean Hayes doesn't have an attractive face.

Then how did he manage to have sex with more men than Blanche Devereaux?

In a world where people are still murdered for being gay and there are still people in power who desire our genocide, slut-shaming gay men serves their interests.

The show was aiight. My mom liked it.

I loved it. I understand all the criticisms but just roll my eyes. So many homos who would never be happy with ANY show, period, that had gay people in it. Period. This is wrong or that is wrong. Too stereotypical. Not enough sex. Too much sex. Whatever. It was groundbreaking for all the reasons that many others have already posted. It lagged in a few seasons, yes. The whole baby thing with Grace and Will was a bust. The guest star stunts were a drag, usually. But Karen and Jack were hilarious. Two classic characters who have already gone down in sitcom history. Double entendre there.

Gay men have either KNOWN a Jack McFarland or they ARE Jack McFarland, in which case they hate that character and rag on Sean for not coming out sooner, too. The thing is, it was a fucking SITCOM. Not reality-based. Who cares if Will and Grace were "yuppies" or that Jack was a flamer? They were extreme characters but those gay men had some grounding in reality. The gay guy who is kinda prissy but overall could "pass for straight" and who's ass is so clenched up you couldn't pass a straight pin through it. There are millions of Will Trumans them out there. Who aren't as funny, of course, because they don't have writers writing their dialogue. The fun was in all the inside gay references, the jokes, the cultural references.

I watch old episodes and realize how far TV has FALLEN since those glorious sitcom days. Then again, the directors of those old shows are dying off. The men who knew funny. My generation was funnier. Period.

[quote] Gay men have either KNOWN a Jack McFarland or they ARE Jack McFarland

That's why we're tired of seeing them on TV: we're tired of seeing them in real life, too.

"That's why we're tired of seeing them on TV: we're tired of seeing them in real life, too."

R111, definitely IS a Jack McFarland.

R110, you contradict yourself here:

[quote] Gay men have either KNOWN a Jack McFarland or they ARE Jack McFarland, in which case they hate that character and rag on Sean for not coming out sooner, too. The thing is, it was a fucking SITCOM. Not reality-based.

First you say people like that exist in real life, but then you say it's not reality-based, then move the goalpoasts for expectations of quality based on the perceived low standards of the sitcom form. That perception is not based in reality when you take into account.

What would I like to see in a gay-themed sitcom? How about believable characters who resemble actual human beings? How about dialogue that is funny, organic to the characters and the situation and not overly dependent on knowledge of pop culture trivia? How about gay male characters who are neither prudish nor promiscuous?

Name a sitcom that meets your standards.

[quote]Whether it's absolutely true or not is debatable. But if it convinced or converted even a handful of the Joe Bidens out ther in Middle America, then more power to "W&G."

Joe Biden is a lying stinkhole. He just came out with a quote that his father helped change his attitude towards gays. Considering the time period, I seriously doubt Joe's scenario.

[quote]The vice president said his views about gay rights were formed as a teenager when he was riding in the car with his father in his hometown of Wilmington, Del. They saw two men kissing each other on their way to work. When Biden asked his father about it, he replied, "Joey, they love each other. It’s simple."

Joe Biden voted for DOMA.

R115 yeah, that sounds apocryphal. Biden was born in 1942. It's unlikely that gay men in the 1940s or 1950s would be openly kissing, especially since homosexuality was illegal (until 1962 sodomy was a felony in every state). It would be one thing if they were two gay men his family knew and supported, but according to Biden's anecdote, he was riding in the car with his father when he supposedly saw two random men kissing each other.

[quote]Biden was born in 1942. It's unlikely that gay men in the 1940s or 1950s would be openly kissing

I was a teenager in the 1970s and I don't ever remember seeing any gay men being affectionate in public. I grew up about 2 miles from a gay bar and I used to always look as we drove by and I never saw any men even standing outside the place. There were cars parked around, but the men were always inside, you never saw them in the parking lot.

It was phony. The laugh track was annoying. It wasn't all that good and that's why you don't see it in reruns on many stations. Just not that good despite what some say or write.

If not for Karen, it would have been unwatchable in the beginning. It got better when they brought in Sidney Pollock, Debbie Reynolds, Gregory Hines, and Bobby Canavale---they either shifted the focus away from dull Will & Grace (Debbie Reynolds) or gave some depth to Will's otherwise shallow, boring character (the others). The courtship of grace was a terrible story arc because you knew it wouldn't end well. The show always seemed timid and even, at its best, pulled its punches. "Cross-over" shows often are like that and many once ground breaking series like Diahanne Carroll's Julia or much of All in the Family (unwatachable exc. for Edith and some of the recurring characters).

The conceit that Will was in love with Grace - IF ONLY she were a man, they would be together forever - was very offensive.

I don't need statistics of bisexuals or gay men in love with women. Nope, read 'em all a million times. This show couldn't even make Will a real gay man, but rather a self-loathing wannabe heterosexual. THAT was the most damaging aspect of the show.

Basically, it's what Ex-Gays promote doing: pretend she's a man and marry her. Revolting.

And they never even considered the possibility of Will and Jack having any feelings for each other except as a "joke." That was the unkindest cut of all. I've seen butch-femme dynamics in some gay male relationships, though not to such an exaggerated extreme.

[quote]And they never even considered the possibility of Will and Jack having any feelings for each other except as a "joke."

That's because they were both obviously bottoms.

"And they never even considered the possibility of Will and Jack having any feelings for each other except as a "joke." That was the unkindest cut of all. I've seen butch-femme dynamics in some gay male relationships, though not to such an exaggerated extreme."

Except that they did. Did you people even watch the show? They made it clear that Jack had a thing for Will. He called him fat and bald because of that sting of rejection. Sheesh.

[quote]I loved it. I understand all the criticisms but just roll my eyes. So many homos who would never be happy with ANY show, period, that had gay people in it. Period.

And some, no doubt, love it for just that reason.

I had a friend launch an impassioned defense of "Looking" on his Facebook page. When I wrote, "I thought you didn't like that show," he replied, "But it's important for visibility."

If people liked W&G, good for them; I'm not going to say they're "wrong" or it sucked. But I thought the core audience was thirtysomething women who yearned for a pet fairy to go shopping with them and take them to drag bingo.

Television history is littered with the corpses of shows obsessed with their own importance.

Bone the Fish is an odd site -- if an actress named Dawn Lyn appeared in the show under review, 95% of the comments are Dawn Lyn hate -- Ememrgency and Adam-12 are two examples.

Who the hell is Dawn Lyn?

R127 Dawn Lyn played Dodie (Beverly Garland's character's daughter) on the final few seasons of "My Three Sons." She was one of the most annoying child actors EVER.

[quote]Will & Grace made gay men palpable for the great unwashed.

Do you mean PALATABLE?

The show proved to me that Conservatives don't mind gays on tv, if it's in a comedy; but not for a drama series. Angels in America was a limited series, which did well. This mirrors the situation blacks have. Black dramas get cancelled quickly, (Roots, was a miniseries) but comedies have a fighting chance to succeed. As for the show itself, I loved it, at first. But like most shows it became predictable. And settled onto a pattern. Debra Messing seemed to benefit the most from the show. The guy that played 'Jack', was in the closet during the run of the series. Yet it seemed obvious to me that he was gay.

The central premise of the show was the enduring friendship between Will and Grace. I never quite bought it; they were acting more like each other's frenemies than anything else, particularly Grace, who was basically written as an awful, mean, and selfish character, who one would cut off from their life in a heartbeat. It was really far fetched towards the end of the show that Will would dump Vince, the only character ever who would put up with his neediness, insecurities, and neuroses, to raise the baby his nasty codependent female "best friend" was having with her ex-husband. That was beyond pathetic and in line with what some other posters characterized as the crypto-homophobia of the show.

A couple months ago, an old BF and I were talking about the show and agreeing that we never really liked it and found it borderline offensive. It naturally gets talked about for it's "gay sensibility," which is where we then directed our conversation. It was a bunch of broadly-drawn cartoon characters saying hateful things to one another, deluding themselves (and the audience) that they were "clever." These creeps make Boys in the Band seem warm'n'fuzzy.

But we ended up talking more about "gay sensibility" in TV and were hard-pressed to understand what it might actually entail, but we agreed that Will&Grace didn't actually have it. It just had stereotypes of NE urban gays, and that wasn't enough to signify a "sensibility" (again, whatever that might be).

After half an hour or so, we kinda settled on the idea that Frasier was the TV show we both liked a lot which had that elusive quality that straights alone wouldn't be able to make. I dunno. Frasier holds up extremely well in reruns, and it exhibits that "gay sensibility" that's hard to define. Any ideas or thoughts or comments on this? (Maybe this should be a new thread...oh well!)

(Also, FWIW, I always thought David Fisher was the most accurate contemporary depiction of a GWM on TV. I thought Six Feet Under really hit it out of the ballpark with that, particularly sensitive to the relationship he had with his millenial (!) sister, who views his gayness as just another trait, not a defining (to her, maybe to him, though) characteristic. Gawd I miss that show.)

It's/its - gawd I'm so st00pit.

[quote]A couple months ago, an old BF and I were talking about the show and agreeing that we never really liked it and found it borderline offensive.

How old is your boyfriend? Are you a twentysomething and 40/50 seems old, or is he really ancient like 70/80?

R134 I'm 40s; he's 50s.

So, I guess we're "ancient." He's not my BF - he's a former BF, but we're still friends. (Hopefully you'll live long enough to have old "friends.")

I noticed that the few times they had lesbian characters on this show, the depictions were pretty shitty.

Dawn Lyn was one of those people who, like Cousin Oliver on Brady Bunch or Ted McGinley in a recurring role on any show, provided evidence that a show had "jumped the shark" and become total crap.

".......nor good acting." And yet each of the four leads won Emmy awards over the course of the show's run. Strange.

People like Jack are fun in small doses. Even more fun when you can shut them off if you need to. Less fun if you've got one as a roommate, but you'll usually get a few good stories out it.

[quote] ".......nor good acting." And yet each of the four leads won Emmy awards over the course of the show's run. Strange.

The Emmys don't always get it right. [italic]The Simpsons[/italic] was never eligible for Outstanding Comedy Series until it was way past its prime.

R140 and ROSEANNE was never nominated for Best Comedy Series, which is a crime unto itself.

True R140, I was just pointing something out. Only two other sitcoms in tv history have accomplished that feat btw, All in the Family and the Golden Girls.

[quote]Only two other sitcoms in tv history have accomplished that feat btw, All in the Family and the Golden Girls.

Yeah, but those shows deserved their Emmys.

[quote]the first TV show centered around gay characters.

YOUR apology is welcome.

So R140, R143, just curious, do you think what when the Mary Tyler Moore Show won the Emmy for Outstanding Comedy Series it's last three seasons it was past it's prime? Personally I think the last seasons where the best, when they focused more on the workplace, and when Betty White joined the show.

[quote]what when

I believe the correct pronunciation is "What? Where?"

The [italic]real[/italic] first sitcom where a gay character played a major role was NBC's [italic]Snip[/italic] from 1976. If you don't remember it, I don't blame you; it was cut from the fall schedule days before it ever aired. It should be on DVD.

What I really lied was the ending - how Will and Grace suddenly found themselves going in different directions and their intimate friendship had somehow run its course. It was bittersweet but realistic and something I'm sure many gay men, including me, can relate to.

Still miss you every now and then Helen.

[quote]I watch old episodes and realize how far TV has FALLEN since those glorious sitcom days. Then again, the directors of those old shows are dying off. The men who knew funny. My generation was funnier. Period.

There's been some golden stuff made quite recently. Shows like Arrested Development and 30 Rock were great in many ways.

Glenn close ruined the show IMO her suggesting Will and Grace have a baby together led to adding the awful Leo! Up till then seasons 3 and 4 were great.

Will and Grace was just another repellent sitcom. Annoying characters that were desperate to please. That women with the annoying Minnie Mouse voice. Will was just as much of a gay stereotype as Jack. Will was a straight women's fantasy : a cuddly , gay , urban male faggot. This show was NOT for HOMOS it was for straight women.

Rewatching season 6 after leo leaves it’s not bad at all. It is aging very well much better than friends and Seinfeld.

[quote] It was written by callow and uncomfortable ADD Jewish boys

We're the show's writers gay?

The show was great, especially the middle seasons. Karen and Jack are hysterical. I loved Leo, too. So sexy.

[quote] Your view of Will & Grace

People who fed straight-lines to Karen, the true star of the show.

Season 7 is good too, only seasons I didn’t enjoy were the first one and last one.

I think Debra Messing is one of the most kindest, socially aware, and talented actresses working today.

R150 Glennie ruins everything she touches. Pity.

The madonna episode might be the worst one of the entire series, way too much of her character and her acting really stunk!

The reboot really wasn't very good it was it?

Its a fkin sitcom, some of you seem to have expected Will getting fisted and spit roasted in front of a live studio audience.

Harry Connick ruined it.

It’s not funny.

R161 As opposed to a dead studio audience?

The old whore is back!!!!!

I found it mildly amusing

I loved W&G and wish it were still on. Toward the end there were a few misses, but overall, the acting, writing and production was the best on television.

I roll my eyes at W&G, but it was quite funny on a regular basis.

Giving Debbie Reynolds a solid third-act in her career as Bobbie Adler was major.

I love squeezing the phrases "old-fashioned piano party", and "Shut UP Patti LuPone!" into any conversation, and everyone seems to know where they're taken from.

"Will & Grace" was a minstrel show that caricaturized gays for straights' entertainment consumption.

If you like being represented as a sexless, stereotypical clown, this is the show for you.

R169. Shut up Patti LuPone!

I grew to despise Jack and Karen. They were like the gay Steve Urkel. They took over the show.

I thought Our Miss Brooks was the first gay show...but what does a 4 year old know?

Some of you are so ridiculously oversensitive, it's just ridiculous.