Overrated gay icons-why do some gays obsess over certain mediocre or totally untalented celebs?

I would hardly describe Liza Minnelli as untalented, and I'm not even a fan. The others are of middling talent.

Thanks for voicing your useless opinion, OP! Enjoy listening to One Direction for the rest of your life, you pathetic twat!

None of them IS anything special, OP. If you're going to make deliberately outrageous statements, you should at least make the celebrities the focus of the post, not your poor grammar skills.

Marilyn was very good actress. I love her movies.

Liza is annoying, but she is not untalented. Marilyn could be good in the right role.

Britney is the worst. She is a minimally talented pop star. Awful voice, average dancing (with a LOT of help from the other dancers), hasn't matured into an adult yet.

I cannot fathom gay men in their 30's who get moist every time she does something. What I CAN understand is enjoying her for fun and for nostalgia's sake. What I cannot understand is the gays who proclaim that she is very talented and very deep, and a great singer. She's none of those things.

Key difference, to compare:

The NKOTB/Backstreet Boys tour last year or whenever it was. Obviously these guys are doing it for the fun of it, to make money, and to appeal to a nostalgic crowd. They're not trying to fake it up like it's some great artistic comeback. Some of them can sing, some can't sing very well. It's just pure fun (and I heard it was a pretty great show).

The Britney fans are SUPER SERIOUS about their GODDESS and she cannot be criticized.

Let's be honest-Liza Minnelli is a mediocre talent at best. Marilyn Monroe, Madonna and Britney Spears are all severely subpar talents. The gays who argue otherwise fall into the cliche that the OP is talking about.

OP, at least they can grasp the basic rules of English grammar, which is more than you can do.

NONE is singular and 3rd person, not plural. Your Okie sentence should read: None of them IS anything special.

We learned this in 5th grade. Where were you?

Someone needs a lesson on camp.

Britney is not camp by any stretch of the imagination. Vocally, her only trick in the book is the vocal fry which she sings on EVERYTHING, and she sounds like a frog. Every live vocal of her that's ever been leaked has sounded terrible. And her dancing has never been anything to write home about. Liza, on the other hand, was a hell of a dancer before the drugs and booze took their toll on her voice and her reflexes.

Marilyn wasn't the greatest singer, but she had a style that worked with the right material.

Madonna is more of a performance artist than a singer, and the fact that prudes found her shocking at first just fueled her fame because without it, she'd have lasted about five years on the pop charts.

Let's leave the 90's out of this. Back Street Boys, Britney Spears, TLC, Hootie and the Blowfish and others were among the best things that happened in music.

R8, is it necessary to point out that "none" is third person?

Oh, and Madonna sucks.

OMG, r8 has just SCHOOLED the OP!

Devastating!

R8 - These pompous old queens, correcting grammar, and spelling errors, give me pause to reflect on this important thought - You may be educated, and perhaps, successful, but, unlike you, I get laid - A LOT. Don't you notice your liver spots while typing 'oh, dear'?

[quote] Let's leave the 90's out of this. Back Street Boys, Britney Spears, TLC, Hootie and the Blowfish and others were among the best things that happened in music.

Oh puh-leeze; they're not even good on an ironic level. I was a teenager then, and I hated it, and I can't understand the nostalgia for any of it.

I love how the butt-hurt fans of the entertainers that the OP rightfully bashed have no defense other than to criticize his grammar lol

Shitney Spears DOES suck. She is a non-talent as a "singer" is a competent dancer (there are plenty of better dancers out there) and is too stupid to have an engaging personality.

Liza Minnelli is mediocre all-around and wouldn't have made it in the business without the connection to her mother. It's no wonder her attempts at a recording career FLOPPED.

Vadge is sub-par talent all-around. She only became famous because of her "shock and awe" tactics and frequent use of gimmicks that she would change from album to album.

Marilyn Monroe was a complete non-talent as well. She couldn't act or sing. The only reason why she was popular is because, lucky for her, her extensive plastic surgery turned out well and she played off the "baby girl" persona. There was something creepy about a grown woman sounding like a little girl.

oh, where to begin, children.

first of all, even though you're mostly wrong about the talent, you really are completely wrong, OP, about what an icon is. icon does not mean most talented. nobody thinks Joan Crawford was the most talented actress of her generation. She's iconic because she perfectly embodied an era of hollywood glamour and tough bitchiness.

the way Madge perfectly embodied the shallow, grasping, self-promoting eighties when ronald fucking reagan was doing his whole douchebag thing to this country was iconic. genius in its own way.

And Marilyn Monroe perfectly embodied the whole crazy 50's, the blonde bombshell, tragic but tough in her own way that was kind of the only way a woman could survive that caricature of a decade.

Liza is kind of a legacy icon, hard to explain but carrying on the whole talented but ridiculously damaged tradition of mama, complete with gay husbands.

Brittney Spears, I have no idea. not sure what anyone sees, and not sure anyone does. Have there actually been any DL threads celebrating Brittney?

[quote]nobody thinks Joan Crawford was the most talented actress of her generation

that's an understatement

there are so many gay 'icons' who are just boring cliches but what I find annoying is the few male gay icons. Almost all of them are female.

For me Steve Reeves should be the greatest gay icon but alas they prefer Beyawnces or Lady Gagas

Britney was more than a competent dancer. Sure, she can't sing, but she could dance. Before her problems and before she just stood there drugged out, she was pretty impressive with the way she could move her body. She was certainly a more talented dancer than any other Pop princess/singer/performer at the time and probably since. If you think Britney was a terrible dancer, etc. I'm curious as to who you think IS a good dancer that's also a popular/mainstream music act.

r19 because you entirely miss the point. because you are looking for heroes instead of icons.

and that shoulda been r18

It's not about looking for a hero. You don't get Steve Reeves' appeal and his films. He's not a hero to me (I know very little of his personal life, etc). He's everything gay rolled into one.

It's J.C. For You & Me

I have no dog in this fight, but the notion that "none" is always singular is ridiculous and defied by thousands of literary examples. Grammarians are on the side of "none" meaning either "not one" or "not any" depending on the context.

http://www.onlinegrammar.com.au/top-10-grammar-myths-none-always-takes-a-singular-verb/

[quote]If you think Britney was a terrible dancer, etc. I'm curious as to who you think IS a good dancer that's also a popular/mainstream music act.

R19, the list could go on and on. Janet, Beyonce, anyone else who rehearses and is a professional. They don't have to do side-eyes when they're dancing with a group of people to see if they're in step with the professionals. They know they've got it.

If you have to watch your dancers while you're dancing, you're not a good dancer.

If your dancers have to watch YOUR feet when they're dancing with you, you're not a good dancer, as I saw in a recent vid of Britney's Vegas shows. They don't trust her to be on point. And she's not that confident in herself.

Excellent book review of a book on this subject, reviewed by Edmund White.

The reviewer seems more confused than anything else.

The only line that stands out is this:

"gay identity does a very bad job of capturing what it feels like to be gay, because it fails to translate into expressive form the full extent and range of gay desire"

That's all you need to know about gay culture

LIZA was very talented, and unique.

She was a more than competent singer, a Broadway caliber Fosse dancer, and an Academy Award-winning actress.

More than anything, she is a different sort of talent.

Exactly, r27, which is why gay men view the women OP calls nothing special as a proxy to the gay experience. Or in other words, these women symbolically stand in for, whether onscreen or in life, a more expressive form of homosexuality than currently on offer from overt gay stories and characters.

I won't moralize, but it's not too hard for me to understand why some of us view certain women as gay iconography.

Gay icons usually fall into two categories. The truly camp, or the truly talented ( always female) who in someway 'speak' to gay men. The OP is wrong about Liza she inherited a strong voice and a decent acting ability from her mother. However I definitely agree about Britney and Marilyn. Both were very overrated by queens. I will add Joan Crawford to the mix, I can see that she was a clothes horse and a self made woman, both aspects appeal to the gays. BUT she was a sucky actress who slept here way to the top and then some. As far as I can see most gays love to laugh at her because of MD, does anyone actually think she was a genuine talent, beyond her camp image??

You forget Joan, OP. Never has there been a less underwhelming cunt.

Hillary Clinton.

Joan Crawford was a drunken bitch, and I believe that she was mean to Christina. Have any of you seen that clip of her and Christina on that 60s telethon? it's hilarious, JC is loaded (probably on vodka) and she tries to read a poem haha she slurrs her way through it, then Jerry Lewis comes over and I kid you not, practically holds her up. THEN the icing on the cake, he mentions her daughter is there, and old Joan's face turns to thunder and she then puts on a fake sweet tone 'Oh you heard about her?' she then barks 'Christina Crawford!!' and the young woman comes out and is dragged off by Joan before she's got out two words. Oh it's a riot. What an old phoney that woman was. A total mess in real life.

Joan Crawford should have been in therapy NOT movies. Like many movie stars she had some kind of personality disorder, and this career just fed it. Ditto Bette Davis.

[quote]I'm curious as to who you think IS a good dancer that's also a popular/mainstream music act.

Ciara has my vote.

I read stories in some bio that JC would sleep with agents when she was starting out. There's a tale of when she went to a producers office and without talking stripped off there and then. When she found out she's got the wrong office, she just walked out and went to the right one without even putting her clothes back on. If this is true she was mad as a hatter.:))

There is a funny recording of a interview Joan did with Shirley Eder in the 60s in a cab in New York. Joan is loaded, and it's amazing they carried on with the interview really since Joan is cringey throughout!

[quote] Joan Crawford was a drunken bitch, and I believe that she was mean to Christina. Have any of you seen that clip of her and Christina on that 60s telethon?

Joan is the very meaning of the word "Superstar"!

[quote]1968: Jerry Dearest. Jerry Lewis brought movie star (and future "Mommie Dearest" subject) Joan Crawford onto the telethon to donate a check for $5,000 and read a poem of questionable taste entitled, "The Clumsy, Falling-Down Child," which ends with a child with muscular dystrophy dying. After the slurring and quite possibly intoxicated star finished the poem, Lewis briefly brought out her daughter Christina (yes, the poor wire hangers girl) before Crawford grabbed the child's arm to take her to work the phones.

Joan and Christina both looked good that night. They must have spent hours getting their hair done. Joan is so way past drunk. It reminds me of my own alcoholic mother.

haha that's the one. Joan was so pissed off that they let Christina out onto the same stage as her. Her eyes and body language tell it all.

Children love me and I love children!

Haha that commercial or whatever it is, promotional film? is a classic and far more interesting than most of the bitches films lol

No gay adults give a shit about Britney. It was Jack from [italic]Will & Grace[/italic] who contributed to that misconception.

Plenty of gay men in their 20s and 30s who are into her.

no Liza is NOT a good singer. She's very mediocre. Her mother was a talent but Liza would never have gotten anywhere if she weren't the daughter of someone famous and successful. There's nothing remarkable about Liza's singing abilities. She's certainly no beauty either. SOME gay men just have awful taste and it's quite embarrassing. OP is right with all the acts he named as overrated gay icons.

[quote]Plenty of gay men in their 20s and 30s who are into her.

That is very unfortunate. What kind of person would even admit to such a thing?

I'm a straight male, but currently attracted to Gage from the Jeff Lewis show. I think he is beautiful and wonder why he is with Jeff Lewis. I mean Jeff isn't too unfortunate with looks but his face and lips are way to plastic. Gage is a beautiful well built, funny, intelligent bro and has an amazing ass. Jeff is lucky to get to tap that.

R46 You couldn't sound queener than that if you tried.

Is R46 having a Britney breakdown apparently. WTF

Big ol' Britney Big Tits

Cannot sing a note.

All she does is fry her voice

Like there's a frog in her throat.

Dances like Madonna,

Only not as good.

Tried to make a movie,

Acted like a block of wood.

Still, Chris Crocker says,

"Leave her alone, leave her alone,

Leave her alone, please leave her alone,

Leave her alone, leave her alone,

Just leave her!"

Something snapped in Britney,

Whose voice we can't bear.

So she grabbed an umbrella

And she cut off her hair.

She took that umbrella

And tried to jack a car.

Then they took her sons away

And yet she's still a star!

How I wish that she would

Leave us alone, leave us alone

Leave us alone, please leave us alone,

Oh, leave us alone, just leave us alone

Please LEAVE US!

Gage is all man. He's my favorite character on the Jeff Lewis show. I just wish they had more of him shirtless. He spilled the little Gages in 3:15 sec. I bet he could do it faster. Bros being Bros.

WTF happened to the gay message service? I never got the notice that Britney Spears is a gay Icon. I've loathed her for years, not knowing we're supposed to worship her.

I am a gay female but I have a thing for bitchy career women who succeed in a man's world. I blame Datalounge for making me obsessed with Joan Crawford. I love the zest for life and happiness she displays in her earlier movies . I guess she got a little disenchanted with life later on, but her steel will and humour remained.

"Spilled the little Gages"?

Joan Crawford could be a very compelling actress. At her best, she could hold her own with the greats. The problem is that the camp factor eventually overshadowed everything else.

I think Monroe and Crawford are still considered fascinating because of their very presence on screen. There isn't a single female actress under fifty working today that embodies that glamour, that sexiness . Most of these women today don't light up the screen the way Stanwyck, Crawford, Davis and both Hepburn's did. Or the way Streisand, Fonda, Dunaway, Kathleen Turner and Anjelica Huston have. The closest thing we have had is Angelina Jolie, but even she doesn't get the real juicy parts.

That's not saying there aren't great actresses, there are. But somewhere along the line the audience got cutesy frau faves like Julia Roberts, GOOP, Meg Ryan and the insufferable Jennifer Aniston.

Marilyn Monroe was a cultural icon.

I'm not a Liza-fanatic, but I don't know how anyone can watch her in Cabaret, Arthur, Arrested Development, or Liza with a Z and say she has doesn't have a lot of charisma and a shitload of talent.

I don't get Madonna, but she is an amazing cultural provocateur.

Britney Spears has no business being on that list.

I taught a seminar last Spring called "Queer Performance Studies." In week 3, my heterosexual Latina student raised her hand and asked, "Why is 'What a dump!" a thing?" (We were studying Halperin's book and, like White, though I like Halperin's book more than he does,, I did want to move on from "Mildred Pierce," and could only show my favorite clips of Chita Rivera and Carmen Miranda so many class periods.) This seemed like a really intelligent question--the student ended up getting the highest grade in the class.

That is all.

Liza Minnelli is a mediocre talent and cheesy as hell. Then again, all the theater kweens are cheesy too. Why the hell do so many eldergays love cheesy broadway shit? Liza's voice is annoying, her dancing is nothing spectacular and there's nothing that stands out about her. She certainly doesn't have a "shitload" of talent. It's no surprise her attempts to get a recording career going FLOPPED hard.

Why do faungays think it's clever to spell the word "kween"? Too much Hooked-on-Fonics in their inferior elementary educations?

Lisa Whelchel

Cher

Kristen Chenoweth

I heart R55.

R57 speaks like someone whose experience with and knowledge of musical theater is limited to amateur productions of [italic]Mamma Mia[/italic] and those [italic]Wonderful World of Disney[/italic] atrocities from 20 years ago. Go back to your nu-metal trash, dudebro.

r56 was that as a volunteer that you "taught" ?

I get that Marilyn was glamorous and everyone loves that, i just don't see her as compelling at all. Most of her movies except SLIH are almost unwatchable today. Have you tried watching 'Niagra'? or 'Gentleman Prefer Blondes' ? and shes exactly the same bimbo in them all. Rita Hayworth is the REAL sex bomb of the second half of the 20th century. Even as a gay man watching 'Gilda' she was breathtakingly beautiful, sexy AND interesting as an actress.

Good question.

Kurt Cobain was a strong LGBT supporter, but most don't seem to acknowledge his commitment with LGBT people. Instead, most of gay guys who are part of the gay subculture overpraise Diva pop singers who you can't really trust much because they most likely see money coming from you.

At least you should relate to male figures. Kurt is one good in this respect.

[quote]Kurt Cobain was a strong LGBT supporter

So strong he turned down his gay best friend for Courtney Love. And look how that turned out!

To say Marilyn was untalented is ridiculous. Fifty years after her death, she can still be referenced by simply saying her first name. She has gained iconic status in film and more broadly in our culture.

Her best films (Diamonds are s Girl's Best Friend and Some Like it Hot) are classic comedies. She made being sexy fun.

She was not only a great talent, but also a very unique one. And she had a lasting influence on our culture.

Marilyn is who Madonna and Britney wish they could be.

R66 that is laughable. No way was Marilyn talented. She was the laughing stock of the studio execs and real actors at the time. They only kept giving her roles because she made money. She had no range. All her characters were in that stupid baby girl creepy voice. Britney and Madonna have become iconic too and they have no talent either. Becoming iconic is sadly no indication of whether someone has talent or not. Marilyn, Madonna and Britney are talentless.

R65

You cannot force people to love someone they don't feel romantically attracted to.

Kurt Cobain's LGBT support was genuine. You cannot really say the same about Diva pop singers.

R66 is right.

R68 is a fool.

I find gays that idolize female pop singers or old movie stars embarrassing. I don't care much about celebrity but am fans of certain male and female celebrities. I can't help but think the gays that obsess about a particular diva or shitty female pop singer are wannabee trannies.

R56,

What's up with the white privilige against Latinas?

Why do they have to sow the class periods? Because they are brown, they are the natural-born field hands?

do we have to pick your food, clean your houses and raise your children always without respect?

[R66] With respect she wasn't 'a great talent' at all. Compared to the likes of Bette Davis, Jean Arthur, Barbara Stanwyck, Myrna Loy, Kate Hepburn, Claudette Colbert, Judy Holiday etc she was lacking. She just photographed well and was marketed like crazy as a new sex symbol ie a breathy, passive dummy! and you cannot be much of a fan if you can't even get the titles of her movies correct!

Many of these gay icons became so, because they were simply easy choices for drag performers in the clubs to impersonate.

[quote]At least you should relate to male figures. Kurt is one good in this respect.

We should relate to the grunge artist/heroin addict who married Courtney Love because he has a penis?

[quote]You cannot really say the same about Diva pop singers.

That's not really fair to say about women who have donated their time and millions of dollars to AIDS charities. Does that mean that they are sincere, No but we don't know that they are not.

[quote]Liza Minnelli is mediocre all-around and wouldn't have made it in the business without the connection to her mother. It's no wonder her attempts at a recording career FLOPPED.

100% ignorant. Liza's lack of recording success aside, she is a unique and talented all around performer. I've never really even heard anyone say she was given a career by her famous parents. Ridiculous. She is a versatile Oscar-winning film actress and even when she guest stars on tv, as in a Law and Order, or as Lucille Austero on "Arrested Development" she is incredibly good, and quite versatile. She is one of the world's most successful stage and concert performers of the last 45 years. People who are not "huge fans" have seen her live over the decades and become quickly convinced of her talents.

I wish you would sit down and hopefully re-watch "Cabaret", and "The Sterile Cuckoo", and then repeat your chant of "no talent". It just isn't so by any measurable standard.

I totally agree about Kurt Cobain. He was a true champion of gay rights without being entrenched in the gay community (like a Broadway diva would be). In fact, he was in a decidedly homophobic world - rock - and still managed to be fiercely pro-gay.

Plus, no one could scream on key quite like he could.

[quote]If your dancers have to watch YOUR feet when they're dancing with you, you're not a good dancer, as I saw in a recent vid of Britney's Vegas shows. They don't trust her to be on point. And she's not that confident in herself.

But again, you're looking at Britney after her injury and being drugged out. Britney was more than competent and had confidence in her dancing when she first came out. I don't agree that Beyonce is a great dancer.

Kurt Cobain was friends with Rupaul. I remember I once read about Kurt kind of defending a gay friends from bullies. I don't remember the story quite well now.

Kurt used to say that ifyou were a homophobe you should not buy his music or go to his concerts.

There are lost of homosexual guys who love rock in all of this forms and styles but gay culture has no place for them so obvioulsy the Diva pop lover is over-represented in gay culture.

Did you know that there is an expression of punk called Queercore? Kin

Horrible typing but still understandable >.<

Oh honey, r76. The morphine drip is coming soon.

That's what I was thinking, [r24].

R62 What an odd question? For the record, not that I can think of why it would matter, I am a tenured full professor at my college. Does that answer your question sufficiently? The students did very complex and insightful work and took it seriously, even if they had to indulge my occasional excesses. They read a LOT for the course.

I'm surprised by all the scorn and dismissal for Marilyn Monroe. I think the critical consensus is that, while she had limitations, to be sure, she also proved herself capable of some genuinely funny and moving performances. Any actress who could capture the high comedy mixed with wistfulness in SLIH and the complexities of Cherie in Bus Stop was not "untalented." Maybe undisciplined, certainly hampered by the way Hollywood used her and whatever personal demons followed her (including substance abuse), but I think she was definitely talented. "Gentleman Prefer Blondes" may have its problems (for me, Jane Russell, who looks like a football player in drag, is game but lacking in any sexual appeal--not that Elliot Reid could convincingly express heterosexual desire in any case), but I think it may be the clumsiness of the direction not anything inherent in Monroe's performance. And she is a sweet, delightful clown in"How to Be a Millionaire." For some reason, I've never seen "The MIsfits," but if it isn't good and if she isn't good in it, I suspect that may be attributable to the combination of problems in her life (which, yes, a stronger professional might have overcome), but Gable and Clift don't particularly acquit themselves well either.

r83 just meant, how nice that you get paid to do something that you obviously enjoy. we should all be so lucky. no need to activate your defense system.

[quote]Many of these gay icons became so, because they were simply easy choices for drag performers in the clubs to impersonate.

So true! The majority of gay icons (Judy Garland, Barbra Streisand, Bette Midler, Liza Minnelli, Bette Davis, Joan Crawford) had mannish features that female impersonators could easily pull off. Marilyn seems to be the only one who was feminine that drag queens emulate.

R85 Sorry--it's just that I get a lot of people acting like these courses are a scam (trust me, my students complain about the workload). I do consider myself very lucky to have the freedom to teach what I enjoy--I fear I am the last of a dying breed of tenured faculty. I think the next generation will confront more cookie cutter classes taught by woefully underpaid and underappreciated part-timers.

I think that the inclination of some gay men to worship female artists and give them the status of "gay icons" stems from the fact that, especially for gay kids who at an early age start picking up feminine mannerisms, it is harder for them to relate to males and what's considered masculine because the heterosexual world we live in condemns homosexuality. You learn every early in life to hide your same-sex attraction, you feel trheatened by grownup heterosexual men who are contantly vilifying homosexuality.

This causes some gay kids to find shelter around women because they are less judgemental and more protective of kids. Spending more time around girls and women they contrast them with the aggressiveness of heterosexual men and this is how women become role models. Later in life, this appraisal of women and femininity sublimates through female idol worship.

If there were more Kurt Cobain to relate to, probably, men as role models would be more common in gay culture, but guys like Kurt are the least, even in today's world.

OP is right. None of these ladies was/is particularly talented. I don't mind gays worshiping amazing talents but these 4 (and more that OP didn't mention) are inexplicably popular.

lmfao at the old coots defending Liza and Marilyn. You sound senile.

lol R81 yes R76 sounds like a crazy old tasteless kween. Minnelli has always been greatly overrated. There are far better singers and actresses out there.

Can the 'kweens' acting like they're above it all please list who they consider to be talented?

Gay icons have never been about talent. They're either bitchy and/or larger-than-life and/or tragic -- more often than not in their private lives -- and they're all female. They're usually very imitable and quotable.

Someone like Meryl Streep will never be a gay icon, because she's just so boring -- in her private life and on screen.

R92 has it right. Larger than life cunts tend attract the gays. I admit I enjoy a good bitch who doesn't allow men or the establishment keep them weak. Gays relate in a way.

I don't relate to any female gay icon as they call them. I like rock music and I am not looking for any icons for any kind of representation of homosexuality. I just enjoy the music I listen to and that's all.

I think our problem with gay icons is that whether we like them or not there's no room for actual visibilisation of diversity among homosexual people. It all revolves around diva pop singers and things female-related in the gay subculture. All other gay guys who don't fit in the stereotype are not visible.

Is Jenny Law a gay icon? She's bitchy.

Marilyn is still remembered today. When will your faves?

I think everyone Op mentioned has some kind of spark that people. Identify with. It'strue I don't believe Britney has talent but some people identify with her and love her. Michael Jackson had a huge amount of talent but he was a pervert. His fans worship him.

unfortunately a lot of gays just have no taste and it embarrasses me. These tasteless people don't speak for me. I'm not a fan of any of these schlubs.

Someone needs to start a thread to discuss Frau Icons.

You people don't think she's any good in "Cabaret"? Really? You don't think Liza is a freak show/riot in "Arrested Development"? What are you watching at home, the Lord of the Rings trilogy on repeat? I'm sure every one of these philistine mocking my fair-minded overview of Liza's career achievements thinks Beyonce is "genius!", but I'm the "MARY!"

Yeah, who are the big talents I seem to have missed?

lmao the Liza stans are a mess. She's not horrible but certainly overrated. OP is right.

The anti-Marilyn Monroe trolls are quite tedious and uninformed.

Seeing how pretty much all of popular music in the 1990s was both completely unlistenable and shoved down our throats everywhere you went, the hype over Britney when compared to her extremely low levels of actual talent, taste or intelligence made her insufferable when she got famous. She's a stupid, provincial hick who, if it weren't for the momentary lapse in judgement of certain high-ranking people in the Disney organization, would be working at a Waffle House in Shreveport right now. Even her dancing isn't that great; there are plenty of chorus boys and girls on Broadway who can sing and dance at the same time, which she obviously cannot or she wouldn't need a backup track to lipsync to. That that killed Milli Vanilli's career but not hers proves America has a lot of issues to work out regarding race. Christina Aguilera has a better instrument, but she still strangulates every note she sings and she looks like you could get STDs from looking at her. That Disneyland incident, where she cussed out the guy in the Mickey suit who will probably never see as much money in his whole life as she makes in a year, confirmed what a bitch she really is.

Beyoncé I just don't give a damn about anymore, not like I ever did to begin with, but music history is filled to the brim with black female singers whose worst days are way, way better than her best days.

"Even her dancing isn't that great; there are plenty of chorus boys and girls on Broadway who can sing and dance at the same time, which she obviously cannot or she wouldn't need a backup track to lipsync to. That that killed Milli Vanilli's career but not hers proves America has a lot of issues to work out regarding race."

Tons of stars lipsync to backing tracks. She isn't even close to being the first or last singer to do that.

Gay Icons are Gay Icons. There's no, "Who was the better singer/actress/dancer?".

Stevie Nicks

Cyndi Lauper

Serena from Bewitched

Gay Icons are fun to watch!

Britney Spears isn't a gay icon.

Madonna's done nothing for us except use us back in the early 1990s.

I lip-synched three numbers in "The Act" in 1979! Years before Britney! What about me!?

[quote]Madonna's done nothing for us except use us back in the early 1990s.

You wanted it, baby.

I'm gay but I don't even like Madonna and all the cliche diva pop singers. Why are they called "gay icons" if they are not my icons and many other like me?

Gay icons: (taking into account classics and contemporary) Bette Davis, Marylin Monroe, Barbara Streisand, Cher, Madonna , Judy Garland, Joan Crawford, Julia Roberts, Jane Fonda, Meryl Streep, Jodie Foster, Sandra Bullock, Marlene Deitrich, Jennifer Lawrence

Gay icons must be big, tragic, cunty and best of all have power to be non man

Fraus love Julia and Sandra. They are not welcome on DL.

What about Dolly Parton?

R113. Gays like her but she's never had any real power. Hence at 102 she's still in the closet.

What makes a Frau Icon? Who's starting the thread?

Do gay Icons like Meryl, Julia and Sandra also relate to fraus? Why? They seem more gay friendly than Frau friendly.

R113 Dolly is not overrated though. She has some degree of talent but rightfully no one considers her the best. Some gays go CRAZY over the ladies mentioned in OP's post and it's just bizarre.

R54. I'm a woman (lesbian) so I guess that makes me a frau. Yet here I am agreeing with everything you say. I can't bear bland and that's what we get these days and why I don't go to the movies anymore. We get what we deserve - which is the prosaic and pedestrian, those who don't offend as their primary mandate.

As to Dolly. I sort of disagree with R117. She's right up there in talent, uniqueness, charisma, in reinvention and in brains. She's worth about $500 million, all entirely self-made. Most gay men (and women) I know love her and will shell out for concert tickets when she's touring. The only impediments to her being a real ultimate gay icon are 1: she's still primarily identified with a genre that is niche, she doesn't sing tragedies and that genre traditionally doesn't make gays welcome. 2: Her personal and professional life hasn't been scarred by addiction, multiple marriages, overdoses and premature death etc. And 3: Pretty much everybody knows she's a great big stripy lesbian who should just come out now. How can you entirely support one of your own who clings so doggedly to straight privilege even when they're in a position to come out?

Queercore rules.

Dolly was the 3rd most photographed person in the world through the 80s after the Pope and Madonna (the real one, not the mother of our Lord). So she had hella power at least back then.

I would add Dolly to the list. She's definitely a gay icon. Along with Jodie especially with dykes. But she is definitely the least bitchy. Britney isn't very bitchy either compared to the vile cunts they're mentioned with.

someone mentioned Lisa Whelchel, but is she really a gay icon? I think she's just someone that we on datalounge are fascinated by. I don't think any gays outside of DL think much about her. Am I wrong? Did little gay boys long to be Blair Warner and little gay girls long to kiss Blair Warner?

Beyoncé is another I've never understood her "gay icon" tag. Her voice is just okay. I've never been convinced she loves the gays. Her pr people blab for her but {like Brit} she wants your money.

Lindsay Lohan (though she seems to have most of her life in order now) when she was out of control, on drugs and worse. People could not stop talking about her. I dont understand her or get her.

[quote]Dolly was the 3rd most photographed person in the world through the 80s after the Pope and Madonna (the real one, not the mother of our Lord). So she had hella power at least back then.

There is no way to confirm any of this

You're entirely correct, R125. But it's what Dolly herself claimed, I believe in her autobiography.

[quote]Dolly was the 3rd most photographed person in the world through the 80s after the Pope and Madonna (the real one, not the mother of our Lord). So she had hella power at least back then.

Even more than Princess Diana? I figured she was #1 that decade, until her death in 1997.

Dolly was more photographed than Michael Jackson and Prince? hard to believe

I was born in 1980, so I was just a wee little thing in the '80s. But I do recall that the most faces at the check out line seemed to be Diana, Madonna, and Michael Jackson, not necessarily in that order. Those are the top three photographed people in the '80s, if I had to pick.

There's no such thing as "gay icons". They don't represent us all so they are individuals' icons; not icons of an etire group pf people with varied tastes in music.

Why are so many afraid to speak truthfully about Liza Minnelli?

She is mediocre at best who rode family connections...

Camp is one thing, but she gives the same performance: a caricature of her kooky routine, every time!

Whether it's Arthur or the law & order role as the wannabe Patsy Ramsey, it's always the exact same performance

R131 PREACH! There are so many better singers than her, both recording acts and Broadway/musical performers. If she were not the daughter of Judy Garland, Minnelli probably wouldn't have made it very far with her mediocre talent, cheesy personality and lack of beauty. It's baffling why so many gays think she's amazing.

Gay icons came to be because a) there were no openly gay role models back then and b) gay men and women (not to mention African Americans) had one common enemy: Straight (white) men. If a woman was strong enough to make it in a straight men's world she was a hero, an icon. And a great deal of female celebrities back then enjoyed the company of gay men.

Marilyn Monroe was an icon not only because of her movies, but also because of her long list of failed relationships. Her tragic private life gave her debth and gay men could relate to that (the fake image and the tears behind the mask). It's the same thing with Liza Minnelli. The death of her very famous mother, the talent of belting out New York, New York at any moment, her alcohol (and drug?) addiction. Liza is a gay icon, because she is still standing.

Britney Spears is from a total different group of gay men who have different values in life (aka shallow).

Liza is an icon because of no "A-number-one."

Lucy Arnaz is on the same level as Liza

R135 I can't tell which one you're insulting/complementing.