I believe that this crazy dyke DID kill her father and stepmother. What say you?
Lezzie Borden: Did She Do It?
|by Anonymous||reply 131||June 3, 2021 3:27 PM|
Of course she did it.
|by Anonymous||reply 1||April 28, 2015 10:11 PM|
Yep she did it.
|by Anonymous||reply 2||April 28, 2015 10:13 PM|
She sharpened her axe
|by Anonymous||reply 3||April 28, 2015 10:21 PM|
Read Edward Radin's magnificent book on the subject. He proves that the maid, Bridget, was the murderer.
|by Anonymous||reply 4||April 28, 2015 11:28 PM|
[quote]He proves that the maid, Bridget, was the murderer.
So, what was the Maid's motive?
|by Anonymous||reply 5||April 28, 2015 11:38 PM|
The maid didn't do it.
Fourteen Reasons to Believe Lizzie Murdered Her Parents:
|by Anonymous||reply 6||April 29, 2015 4:04 AM|
Yes, Lizzie did it.
Radin's book is fun but no way did Bridget murder the Bordens with an axe.
|by Anonymous||reply 7||April 29, 2015 4:13 AM|
What about the illegitimate brother?
|by Anonymous||reply 8||April 29, 2015 4:15 AM|
There's another book that makes a convincing case that it was Andrew Borden's son from another marriage who did it. Lizzie accepted the blame because she knew, if push came to shove in the trial. That she could prove that she was innocent.
|by Anonymous||reply 9||April 29, 2015 4:17 AM|
Photos were found of the Irish maid later in life. This site is awesome!
|by Anonymous||reply 10||April 29, 2015 4:17 AM|
Lizzie's lesbian love letters are interesting. That was another theory -- Abigail caught Lizzie with the maid, and before she could tell her father, axed her to death.
Was the Lizzie rhyme repeated when she was still alive?
|by Anonymous||reply 11||April 29, 2015 4:20 AM|
[quote]Lizzie accepted the blame because she knew, if push came to shove in the trial. That she could prove that she was innocent.
That doesn't make any sense.
|by Anonymous||reply 12||April 29, 2015 4:20 AM|
R9 -- Andrew had two wives, Lizzie's mother and stepmother. Such a brother would've been a bastard.
|by Anonymous||reply 13||April 29, 2015 4:30 AM|
As selfish and mercenary as Lizzie was, she wouldn't have taken the blame for anyone, let alone another heir of Andrew Borden's.
Lizzie did it, for sure, no other suspect fits both murders anywhere near as well as she does. She's got motive out the wazoo and she was always an odd duck - not in an endearing way.
She abruptly left the house, and Fall River, the week before the murders. When she got back, she moved into a boarding house for four days rather than go home. She tried to buy poison the day before the murders. She said that some mysterious people were out to murder her father. She burned the dress she was wearing the day of the murders. None of her footprints were found in the layer of dust upstairs in the barn, where Lizzie claimed she was during her father's murder. She was the only other person in the house when Abby Borden was murdered - Bridget was outside.
Lizzie Borden is guilty as sin.
|by Anonymous||reply 14||April 29, 2015 4:44 AM|
Her acquittal was by no means a foregone conclusion. Of course her gender did help fool the jury into finding her Not Guilty. But the prosecutor knew damned well she did it and he was determined to get a conviction, if it were at all possible.
|by Anonymous||reply 15||April 29, 2015 4:50 AM|
I've never been able to read or watch anything on Lizzie Borden. When I was maybe seven or eight years old, we were on vacation on Cape Cod, and the Lizzie Borden movie with Elizabeth Montgomery was on. There was a huge thunderstorm and I couldn't sleep, so my parents let me stay up. They happened to be watching Lizzie and it freaked me the FUCK out. My parents probably regretted this because all I did was ask questions - did she really do this? Why did she do it? Why did she take her clothes off? Etc. I don't think I slept the whole night. After that, I was so afraid of the Lizzie story that I could never get into it again.
|by Anonymous||reply 16||April 29, 2015 4:58 AM|
If he half-brother or maid did it, why did Lizzie burn the dress she was wearing at the time of the murders?
I think she did it, and I think her father was no great loss to humanity.
|by Anonymous||reply 17||April 29, 2015 6:40 AM|
Do any DLers have the book PARALLEL LIVES? If so, is it worth the asking price? I think Michael Martins is cute with his Baba Wawa accent and all, but not that cute if the book sucks.
|by Anonymous||reply 18||April 29, 2015 10:59 AM|
Lezzie did it.
|by Anonymous||reply 19||April 29, 2015 11:13 AM|
But why was there no blood in her hair or anywhere on her skin? That's the tricky part.
|by Anonymous||reply 20||April 29, 2015 12:26 PM|
Robert Durst did it.
|by Anonymous||reply 21||April 29, 2015 12:30 PM|
[quote]Read Edward Radin's magnificent book on the subject. He proves that the maid, Bridget, was the murderer.
Why would Lizzie take the fall for an Irish maid. Domestics were looked down upon in those days, and being Irish made you an undesirable, too.
|by Anonymous||reply 22||April 29, 2015 12:40 PM|
Abigail Borden made the maid wash the outer windows when it was in the 90s and humid as hell- and the maid was suffering the effects of food poisoning. I'd have gone apeshit.
But then again, that humid weather in Victorian clothing would have driven anybody mad.
|by Anonymous||reply 23||April 29, 2015 12:59 PM|
Tom Lange(ex LAPD) theorized that Bridget helped Lizzie clean herself up after the murders. No evidence, just his theory.
|by Anonymous||reply 24||April 29, 2015 1:00 PM|
Given the time period, if there was any remote possibility that the maid could have committed the crime, she would've been charged and likely convicted. Way more than someone with Lizzie's social standing. If poor people today are more likely to get convictions than someone of a wealthier class or ethnicity, you can only imagine what it was like for them 100 years ago. Lizzie's guilt is there in the evidence, and there in her subsequent life after the murders. She never showed grief over those deaths. She never gave any indication that she even cared.
|by Anonymous||reply 25||April 29, 2015 1:49 PM|
[quote] Lizzie told police that while she was alone in the house with her mother on the morning of the murder, a messenger came to the door with a note summoning her mother to visit a sick friend. Lizzie told people that she assumed her mother had left. Despite a thorough search of the Borden home, no such alleged note ever was found.
Not complete, Emma, Lizzie's sister put ads in newspapers, all over the country, begging anyone who sent that note to come forward. No one ever did. It seems unlikely that, seeing how famous the case was no one would ever admit to sending the note.
|by Anonymous||reply 26||April 29, 2015 1:55 PM|
Yes, she did it. She and her sister were a couple of seriously ugly women.
Unless they each found wealthy gay guys who desperately needed a beard they sure as hell weren't going to marry into wealth and security.
These two were the "Lee" sisters. Ug and Home.
|by Anonymous||reply 27||April 29, 2015 2:04 PM|
Yikes, R27, poor Lizzie pings to high heaven even through that old sepia print. I can see her transported to the present with one of those short dykey haircuts and a flannel shirt. She's very masculine looking.
She also looks, in the picture, as if she were bi-racial or had some ethnic background and looks nothing like Sis.
|by Anonymous||reply 28||April 29, 2015 2:11 PM|
That was the joke: when in trouble, always blame the Irish maid.
|by Anonymous||reply 29||April 29, 2015 2:12 PM|
Elizabeth Montgomery was very pretty in that movie.
|by Anonymous||reply 30||April 29, 2015 2:14 PM|
Yep, and Elizabeth is actually related to Lizzie irl.
|by Anonymous||reply 31||April 29, 2015 2:19 PM|
Elizabeth Montgomery did a great job but was way to beautiful to be Lizzie Borden.
|by Anonymous||reply 32||April 29, 2015 2:21 PM|
It is possible that Lizzie and Emma may have had two different fathers. Apparently neither father passed on the genetic code for good looks, though.
I love how these pre-20th century time periods are portrayed on television and movies. You know, the good old days where women were so helpless, God-fearing, proper and pure.
Looking at their pictures I can't help but think of these two more as "Larry & Eddie" rather than "Lizzie & Emma".
|by Anonymous||reply 33||April 29, 2015 2:28 PM|
R33 who are Larry & Eddie?
|by Anonymous||reply 34||April 29, 2015 2:32 PM|
[quote]You know, the good old days where women were so helpless, God-fearing, proper and pure.
Women had to be really tough back then. They had the chips stacked against them from birth.
|by Anonymous||reply 35||April 29, 2015 2:37 PM|
Andrew was no prize in the looks department himself. He looks like a major s.o.b.
|by Anonymous||reply 36||April 29, 2015 2:44 PM|
"Larry & Eddie" are no one. I just meant that these two looked more like men so their names should have been "Larry & Eddie" instead of "Lizzie & Emma".
Yes, I know, I am quite clever and witty.
|by Anonymous||reply 37||April 29, 2015 2:46 PM|
Another theory was her father molested her.
|by Anonymous||reply 38||April 29, 2015 2:46 PM|
Her father had a lot of money and yet they lived in a house with such a cramped upstairs, there was no hallway, just connecting rooms.
The story many believe had to do with the inheritance.
|by Anonymous||reply 39||April 29, 2015 2:48 PM|
Very possible R39. Doubtless, Lizzie didn't want to marry a man and turn her money over to him but it looked like Daddy was giving or selling stuff away to his wife's family.
|by Anonymous||reply 40||April 29, 2015 2:57 PM|
Her father came from a wealthy family and he was the one who didn't get the money. He did, however, make money for himself, mainly by being shrewd and a penny pincher.
|by Anonymous||reply 41||April 29, 2015 2:59 PM|
She hacked her father so badly that he was left without a face.
His skull is still on display.
|by Anonymous||reply 42||April 29, 2015 3:00 PM|
R31 & R32
Yes, Elizabeth Montgomery did make a very pretty Lizzie.
"The Legend of Lizzie Borden" scared the crap out of me when I was a kid. The severe high-necked black dress, the crazy look in Montgomery's eyes, the axe, the nursery rhyme. Eek!
If the real Lizzie Borden looked like Elizabeth Montgomery and was straight she would gave married out of that house and away from Andrew and Abby and would not have had to go to the trouble of axing two people to death in order to get her hands on some money.
|by Anonymous||reply 43||April 29, 2015 3:02 PM|
Good Abigail death photo.
BTW, they did the autopsies in the living room of the house and left them there for days.
They didn't do crime scene photography back in the day. This was a totally new concept.
|by Anonymous||reply 44||April 29, 2015 3:02 PM|
Father death photo.
|by Anonymous||reply 45||April 29, 2015 3:03 PM|
Abigail autopsy done in living room photo.
|by Anonymous||reply 46||April 29, 2015 3:04 PM|
Closeup of Abigail dead.
|by Anonymous||reply 47||April 29, 2015 3:04 PM|
They left them there for days in the 90 degree heat of a humid, New England summer? Gross.
|by Anonymous||reply 48||April 29, 2015 3:06 PM|
Anybody ever visit the house? If one stays as a guest, how can you get from room to room upstairs without disturbing other guests?
|by Anonymous||reply 49||April 29, 2015 3:07 PM|
Lizzie was a shoplifter. Badass bitch.
|by Anonymous||reply 50||April 29, 2015 3:15 PM|
Yikes, that was definitely a crime of passion. Random strangers/drifters don't bother to inflict that much havoc on a body, especially their face/head.
Lizzie had a contemptuous relationship with her stepmother, and resented her father. She had motive and opportunity.
Also, she wasn't a delicate Victorian flower like the newspapers and defense tried to portray her. Lizzie looks like she could give a good hack.
|by Anonymous||reply 51||April 29, 2015 3:15 PM|
R49 I haven't but a lot of people who have claim that it is haunted.
I guess it is now the "Lizzie Borden Bed and Breakfast Museum" and guests can have "mutton chops and broth" for breakfast as it was the last meal that Andrew and Abby ate before they were murdered (by Lizzie!).
Sick, twisted and macabre theme for a b & b.
|by Anonymous||reply 52||April 29, 2015 3:16 PM|
They do all those haunted shows from it and nothing ever happens.
|by Anonymous||reply 53||April 29, 2015 3:18 PM|
"Read Edward Radin's magnificent book on the subject. He proves that the maid, Bridget, was the murderer."
Bullshit. He didn't prove anything.
Of course Lizzie did it. She had the motive. She had the opportunity (a fat inheritance). Before the murders she told people that she lived in fear that someone would break in the house and kill them all. She tried to buy deadly poison but the pharmacist wouldn't give it to her. When asked to verify her whereabouts during the time the murders were committed she told a crazy implausible story of going up into the hayloft on a sweltering hot day and looking for sinkers to fish with and eating three pears. She burned a dress. So much evidence pointed to her guilt...but the men on the jury could not let themselves believe that a proper young lady like Lizzie Borden would be capable of chopping up her father and stepmother with an ax. But she did.
|by Anonymous||reply 54||April 29, 2015 3:21 PM|
Lizzie's "stately" home Maplecroft really isn't anything aestheticaly special by today's standards but looks as though it's well kept up in a nice neighborhood. Anybody ever visited that and taken photos?
|by Anonymous||reply 55||April 29, 2015 3:29 PM|
FUN FACT: Aaron Hernandez's recent murder trial was held in the court house immediately across the street from the Bordens' house, which is now a bed & breakfast.
|by Anonymous||reply 56||April 29, 2015 3:43 PM|
The recent Christina Ricci movie about Lizzie had a scene of her making out with a gardener type guy. Didn't know she was a lesbian.
Can't believe they're doing an entire series with Ricci as Borden .... I guess it's going to be like 'Hannibal' or something with more victims ???
|by Anonymous||reply 57||April 29, 2015 3:50 PM|
I don't think I would want to bed and breakfast in a house where two people were chopped up with an ax.
|by Anonymous||reply 58||April 29, 2015 3:51 PM|
Her mother walked in on her muff diving. So she killed her. Then she had to kill her poor sleeping father on the couch to seal the deal once and for all.
|by Anonymous||reply 59||April 29, 2015 3:56 PM|
[quote]Yep, and Elizabeth is actually related to Lizzie irl.
Almost EVERYONE is related to Lizzie. If you have ancestors from early New England, you're probably related to her too.
She's my 6th Cousin, 4 times removed.
|by Anonymous||reply 60||April 29, 2015 3:59 PM|
[quote]Her father had a lot of money and yet they lived in a house with such a cramped upstairs, there was no hallway, just connecting rooms.
The father also refused to install plumbing or electricity in the house because he was such a tightwad. By the end of the 19th century, anybody who had a little money had a house with plumbing and running water. Lizzie was pissed as hell that her father wouldn't have modern conveniences, when he had more than enough money to do so.
Also, in spite of his wealth, Mr. Borden refused to buy a house in the fashionable neighborhood on the other side of town. The Borden house was located in a fairly "downmarket" area. This was another thing Lizzie hated.
Shortly after the murders, Lizzie sold the family home and moved to a nice house in the rich neighborhood, where she lived for the rest of her life.
|by Anonymous||reply 61||April 29, 2015 4:00 PM|
R61, You forgot to include that she lived with her lesbian lover and that she was never accepted by high society even with her wealth.
|by Anonymous||reply 62||April 29, 2015 4:05 PM|
The psychic on DEAD FILES "sensed" that not only was Andrew molesting Lizzie, but Lizzie and Emma were having a sexual relationship. That was one I'd never heard before.
The link is to the other Borden murders.
|by Anonymous||reply 63||April 29, 2015 4:07 PM|
R57, The death count at the hands of Lizzie in "The Lizzie Borden Chronicles" is now up to 7 (not including her parents who were killed in the movie). Last week she electrocuted a neighbor for mistreating her dog. She is the new (old) Jason Voorhees.
|by Anonymous||reply 64||April 29, 2015 4:10 PM|
Great. People are gonna start believing that shit really happened.
|by Anonymous||reply 65||April 29, 2015 4:13 PM|
Even though I know most of it's fictional, I still like watching the LIZZIE BORDEN CHRONICLES. I like Clea DuVall as the sister, and Christina Ricci is very good in it.
|by Anonymous||reply 66||April 29, 2015 4:19 PM|
The reviews for the Lizzie Borden show are lukewarm but they agree that Ricci is quite good.
|by Anonymous||reply 67||April 29, 2015 4:22 PM|
R63, That psychic is full of shit and is simply regurgitating information that has priorly been speculated. Lizzie lived the rest of her life with a woman and never married. So her being a lesbian was of course a natural suspicion.
|by Anonymous||reply 68||April 29, 2015 4:25 PM|
R28 -- my brother and I look NOTHING alike at all; we are NOT half-brothers, and neither of us was adopted. A cousin remarked once, "If I didn't know it for a fact, I'd have to get used to your being brothers."
Bear in mind that Lizzie was 10 years older (a child in the middle was born after Lizzie and died before Emma).
I was always fascinated by the confirmed bachelor uncle, John Vinnicum Morse ... who just "happened" to be visiting at that time.
|by Anonymous||reply 69||April 29, 2015 4:35 PM|
[quote]I was always fascinated by the confirmed bachelor uncle, John Vinnicum Morse ... who just "happened" to be visiting at that time.
Ron Goldman just happened to be returning Nicole Simpson's sunglasses when she invited him to stick around the night OJ showed up and killed them both. Coincidence is a part of life. The uncle had nothing to do with the murders. His presence was accounted for elsewhere at the time they happened.
|by Anonymous||reply 70||April 29, 2015 4:40 PM|
[quote]Bear in mind that Lizzie was 10 years older (a child in the middle was born after Lizzie and died before Emma).
It was Emma (b. 1851) who was older, by 9 years. Lizzie was born in 1860.
But, yes, they had the same parents.
|by Anonymous||reply 71||April 29, 2015 4:40 PM|
I didn't say I believed the psychic. Just that Emma and Lizzie having sex with each other was a new one on me. I had always read that they had a falling out because Emma didn't approve of Lizzie's relationship with Nance O'Neill, or all of the unsavory folk(theater people---shudder!) she had in her life. The molestation by Andrew was hinted at even in the Elizabeth Montgomery tv movie.
|by Anonymous||reply 72||April 29, 2015 4:40 PM|
I always wondered, why did Lizzie choose to remain in Fall River, where she was persona non grata. Granted, she moved to a better, bigger house on "The Hill," but she was ostracized by Fall River society. She could've moved to Boston or NY or even abroad.
|by Anonymous||reply 73||April 29, 2015 4:42 PM|
[quote]I always wondered, why did Lizzie choose to remain in Fall River, where she was persona non grata.
She may have felt it necessary to stick around in order to keep up the facade of innocence. Living in the nicer part of Fall River was the fulfillment of her long-held wishes. She was always aloof and indifferent to public opinion, once her freedom was assured.
|by Anonymous||reply 74||April 29, 2015 4:48 PM|
Morse had a good alibi, but I've wondered if something about his presence or the reason for his visit set Lizzie off. She, if what has been told and retold is true, had previously planned to kill her parents in a typically female way--poison. Then when she can't get the poison she lashes out in a much more savage and personal way. It would seem that a visiting relative would make her postpone the killings. That's one more person who could return to catch her in the act.
|by Anonymous||reply 75||April 29, 2015 4:54 PM|
I think the visitor, her uncle(?) was trying to buy property or get something that was perhaps due his dead sister (Lizzie's mom). Maybe she overhead her father giving part of her inheritance away, but, yeah, I agree about the visit "snapped" her.
|by Anonymous||reply 76||April 29, 2015 5:09 PM|
[quote]Her father had a lot of money and yet they lived in a house with such a cramped upstairs, there was no hallway, just connecting rooms.
While the Bordens lived below their means, they did NOT live uncomfortably by the standard of their times.
This would be like if someone said, "Gee Mr Trump, why do you live in a nice suburban house in Yonkers when you could afford to live in a mansion in Larchmont?"
The house was not a dump by any means for the standard of the time.
|by Anonymous||reply 77||April 29, 2015 5:15 PM|
[quote]The house was not a dump by any means for the standard of the time.
Not a dump, but it was far beneath the means of a man like Andrew Borden. He lived like a bank clerk when he could have lived like a bank president. The Borden house didn't even have indoor plumbing, which had become a common feature by then.
|by Anonymous||reply 78||April 29, 2015 5:36 PM|
Would it have killed the bastard to put AC in the attic?
|by Anonymous||reply 79||April 29, 2015 5:53 PM|
Wrong, indoor plumbing was not a common feature by then. They had a privy closet in the basement which was the standard for Fall River middle class at the time.
The Borden home was decidedly middle class at the time of the murders. Yes, they could've had indoor plumbing but the issue is people always make use of this to prove Andrew was stingy. He was not. This is like saying a rich man today is stingy, because he could've had a cell phone and computer and did not.
Andrew simply never grew up with things like indoor toilets and saw no reason in his old age to install them. His attitude was he got along with out them fine till now.
He was generous to his family. He GAVE his wife's relatives a house. Lizzie and Emma, bitched about it. So he GAVE the sisters their own home as well. Neither Emma or Lizzie could be bothered with even collecting the rents. So they sold it for the money.
Andrew gave Lizzie and outlandish trip to Europe but instead of being grateful she came back demanding more high society items. Emma saved the money her father gave her and did not go to Europe.
The girls had nothing to do but clean their own two rooms. Bridget the maid was limited to cleaning the first floor, (Kitchen and living areas), the basement and her own room. The second floor, consisted of the girl's rooms, a guest room and the Mr/Mrs Borden's room. Abby died cleaning the guest room as the girl's didn't even have to do that.
The most telling thing is Andrew was estimated to be worth about $750,000 at his death, yet each of the girls inherited half a million each. So he was worth a lot more, even after legal fees. Which by the way were paid out BEFORE the division of property. Who's the cheap one here, Andrew or Lizzie?
The most telling sign was after some 30 years. Lizzie died with just over 100,000 but Emma had over 500,000 in her will.
Seems Lizzie loved to spend the money. True she gave a lot of it to animal charities which was nice, but she did live large, something Emma, who also managed to get a reputation for a charitable women didn't.
|by Anonymous||reply 80||April 29, 2015 6:02 PM|
One of the better theories I have read has Emma, Lizzie and Bridget doing the crime together. There has always been talk that Lizzie and Bridget were having a relationship. Emma was the week of the muder staying with friends. On the day of the murders Emma borrowed a horse and buggy to go for a solitary ride. A strange horse and buggy was seen a few streets away on the day of the murder. Although I have read that Lizzy was shunned after the murders I have also read the opposite. I think the fact Emma and Lizzie remained close after the murders until Lizzy moved in an actress says a lot.
|by Anonymous||reply 81||April 29, 2015 6:33 PM|
Anyone who thinks the Borden sisters were so ugly they couldn't get a husband need only take a gander at Abby, their stepmother. She snagged two.
There are some interesting facts on the show at the link. Some of the long held beliefs about the Bordens are untrue according to Michael Martins.
|by Anonymous||reply 82||May 3, 2015 7:24 AM|
[quote]Andrew gave Lizzie and outlandish trip to Europe but instead of being grateful she came back demanding more high society items.
So she was a lipstick lez?
|by Anonymous||reply 83||May 3, 2015 12:07 PM|
Was Emily Dickinson a lesbian?
|by Anonymous||reply 84||May 3, 2015 12:57 PM|
I did not read your previous comments, because i'm thinking to see the series and maybe there are some spoilers in what you wrote. I would like to know one thing. In the series, is Lizzie Borden in love with a woman, is there any romance, or we just see her occasionally drooling over many femmes? Actually, should i see it, is it worth it...?
|by Anonymous||reply 85||December 21, 2015 5:52 PM|
|by Anonymous||reply 86||December 21, 2015 6:49 PM|
One of the theories for why Lizzie didn't have any blood on her after the murders was that she killed while nude.
|by Anonymous||reply 87||December 21, 2015 7:03 PM|
I thought the actual murder weapon was a hatchet, not an axe.
|by Anonymous||reply 88||December 21, 2015 7:11 PM|
I remember a mystery novel called "Miss Lizzie" which takes place in 1922, 30 years after the Fall River murders. The story is told by a woman recounting that summer in which Lizzie Borden is a neighbor of her family at a summer resort. Miss Lizzie and the girl become friends and team up to discover the truth when axe murders occur that seem to be the work of Lizzie. The climactic scene is something right of a 60s psychobiddy movie. I pictured a 70s film with Bette Davis as Lizzie and Jodie Foster as the girl.
|by Anonymous||reply 89||December 21, 2015 8:03 PM|
That's a very interesting info, R89. You are the last reply i read for tonight. However, i was hoping that someone would mention something about the series. Anyway, goodnight for now...
|by Anonymous||reply 90||December 21, 2015 8:13 PM|
Of course Lizzie did it. There have been other theories; the maid did it, her poor little mousy sister did it, etc. But all the evidence points to Lizzie's guilt. She had the motive (she wanted her father's money, and her stepmother was standing in the way of her getting it). She had the opportunity. She told an absurd story of her whereabouts during the murders; she said she was up in the hayloft of a sweltering hot barn, looking for sinkers to fish with and eating pears. She burned a dress shortly after the murders. Despite the horror of the crime, two people hacked to death with an ax, she showed little emotion at the deaths of her father and stepmother. No doubt about it; Lizzie DID it.
That woman who was supposedly her lover, Nance O'Neill, was an opportunistic theater performer who enjoyed Lizzie's largesse. I don't want to think about what they might have done with each other. They were both repulsive. Lizzie, with her thick figure and jowly face and pale blue crazy eyes was quite unprepossessing and good old Nance put me in mind of a man in drag.
|by Anonymous||reply 91||December 21, 2015 8:30 PM|
Good for her.
|by Anonymous||reply 92||December 22, 2015 12:26 AM|
Sorry to bump a 2015 thread, but I didn't want to start a new one on the topic since this one is so good. (No, I'm not the 2015 thread bumper.)
This case has always fascinated and unsettled me a bit.
Has anyone here been to the B&B?
|by Anonymous||reply 93||July 24, 2020 9:15 PM|
Anyone with half a brain would know this is the work of a foreign faction. They count on people always jumping to stupid conclusions.
|by Anonymous||reply 94||July 24, 2020 9:32 PM|
Bitches, it was me.
|by Anonymous||reply 95||July 24, 2020 9:36 PM|
Oh yeah, she did it.
She should have gone to jail for life for premeditated murder but I'm still oddly sympathetic to her, it was considered socially acceptable to treat your butch dyke daughter like dirt in those days.
|by Anonymous||reply 96||July 25, 2020 1:47 AM|
Oh hell yeah. She did it!
|by Anonymous||reply 97||July 25, 2020 2:22 AM|
There were a lot of issues between Lizzie and her father. She wanted to change her name to Lezzie, or at least Rosie. She wanted to take all of her meals at the Y She would only eat fish. She bought bolt after bolt of plaid flannel. She purchased a race horse and named it Lickity Split.
|by Anonymous||reply 98||July 25, 2020 2:45 AM|
One interesting fact in the case is that at one point, Lizzie kept pet pigeons in the barn. Local neighbor boys kept breaking into the barn to look at the birds. One day, Lizzie came home and her father had killed all her pet birds to put a stop to the trespassing. He was ax murdered not long after.
|by Anonymous||reply 99||July 25, 2020 3:41 AM|
R99 I remember that was one of the scenes in the Elizabeth Montgomery movie that freaked me out when I was a kid. That and seeing Samantha Stevens as a naked axe-murderer.
|by Anonymous||reply 100||July 25, 2020 8:26 AM|
r99 that is disturbing ...
|by Anonymous||reply 101||July 25, 2020 10:27 AM|
Oh, I was plenty disturbed, alright!
|by Anonymous||reply 102||July 25, 2020 11:55 AM|
Transwomen of color prefer axes, so it's possible Lizzie Borden was a transwoman.
|by Anonymous||reply 103||July 25, 2020 12:07 PM|
[quote]”Axe" rhymes with "whacks", R88.
Lizzie Borden took a hatchet
That’s when things got really batshit...
40 times she hacked her dad
Chopped up mommy just as bad.
|by Anonymous||reply 104||July 25, 2020 12:39 PM|
Lezzie Borden had a thing for hatchet wounds.
|by Anonymous||reply 105||July 25, 2020 12:46 PM|
I read an exhaustive overview of the case and one thing that helped Lizzie immensely was her choice of lawyer. Andrew Jackson Jennings was brilliant, respected, and well-connected. He didn't come cheap, but she had the money to pay him now that her father was dead. He brought enough reasonable doubt into the case that the town, already reluctant to convict a woman from a prominent local family of a brutal double murder, let her off. They all knew, though. She was a pariah in Fall River for the rest of her days.
|by Anonymous||reply 106||July 25, 2020 4:58 PM|
She loved a good wet gash
|by Anonymous||reply 107||July 25, 2020 10:19 PM|
I like her attitude. Staying put in Fall River. Fuck y’all!
|by Anonymous||reply 108||July 26, 2020 12:16 AM|
Attitudes of the time towards well bred white women, mistakes by law enforcement, coupled with best legal defense Lizzie Borden could buy with her inherited money got her off. She was guilty as sin and if had been an African American, or merely white immigrant woman from lower class (Irish or whatever), she would have swung.
|by Anonymous||reply 109||July 26, 2020 12:35 AM|
Like another famous Victorian woman accused of murder, Madeleine Smith, class and perceptions of high born women saved Lizzie Borden.
It is a pity "not proven" isn't part of American legal system. Forcing jurors to decide between guilty beyond a reasonable doubt or must be innocent has sent no small number of criminals free.
|by Anonymous||reply 110||July 26, 2020 12:42 AM|
If there is one saving grace Lizzie Borden like Ann Woodward many years later would suffer from society's scorn regardless of what legal system said; no one was permitted to know either of them ever again.
|by Anonymous||reply 111||July 26, 2020 12:44 AM|
i don't know if she did it. circumstantially, it looked pretty good but i think the trial finding was the correct decision. it was definitely not beyond doubt. i don't think the house was locked up tight. i don't find her lingering in the barn or whatever particularly incriminating. what is incriminating is the order in which the two were killed. someone was in the house upstairs and bashed in the wife's skull some time before the father was attacked on the couch downstairs. this is the perfect order to do a couple in if the whole point is making sure the inheritance passes down to the husband's family and not the wife's.
being a greedy person, a spinster, a lesbian, and a spendthrift that shoplifts doesn't make one guilty. having your sister disown you many years later and dying with your fortune substantially lessened also doesn't.
being hacked in the head doesn't mean that the killer knew, nor had any kind of close relationship with the family. Bundy used to bash women's skulls in, and he didn't know them. the Golden State Killer bashed in skulls. lots of killers bash in skulls beyond recognition.
if she had been poor, she wouldn't have been able to put on a defense to get her out of it.
|by Anonymous||reply 112||July 26, 2020 1:13 AM|
R27, like 95% of women married back then, even the ugly ones. I don't even think they look that bad, by the standards of the time
|by Anonymous||reply 113||July 26, 2020 1:18 AM|
There is an interesting book called “The Trial of Lizzie Borden“ that came out a year or two ago. As you can probably guess from the title. It goes into great detail about the trial but also includes lots of background information about the Borden family and all the statements made to the police before the trial. My memory is the book gets bogged down a little in feminist theory toward the end, but it’s still a good read.
|by Anonymous||reply 114||July 26, 2020 3:25 PM|
There is a theory that Lizzie was only going to murder her stepmother. She then planned to leave the house on errands, come back and 'find' the body. But her father came home unexpectedly early (he usually kept a very strict schedule), saw Lizzie coming downstairs (having killed Abby upstairs), and Lizzie knew her alibi would never wash. She waited for him to go into the parlor and take a nap, not knowing that his wife lay dead overhead, and then she had to kill him too. The obliteration of his eyes and face was Lizzie's way of making sure he could never 'see' what she'd done to Abby.
|by Anonymous||reply 115||July 26, 2020 3:29 PM|
CBS News did a one-hour special recently (before Covid19 hit) investigating the Lizzie Borden trial and retrying it in front of a new jury
If you have an hour to spare, watch below
|by Anonymous||reply 116||July 26, 2020 3:30 PM|
Thank you r116!
|by Anonymous||reply 117||July 26, 2020 3:49 PM|
Years ago now there as a play in Paris, France named loosely translated as "My Name Was Marie-Antoinette" that was somewhat similar. It was the trial of the ill fated queen, each night at end of play audience acted as jury and voted for Marie-Antoinette's guilt or innocence...
|by Anonymous||reply 118||July 26, 2020 7:58 PM|
Of course she did it. If you read about her case, you can see it was absolutely impossible for anyone else.
Every single person's movements but Lizzie and Abby's were not only accounted for but back by witnesses who didn't know each other yet collaborated time movements exactly.
Even the most telling things like Lizzie said she saw a note someone gave her step mother asking her to visit her. This is why Lizzie claimed she never noted her step mother's death in the house as she assumed she was gone. But even after publishing rewards for anyone to come forward and say they wrote the note, which of course disappeared, no one, not even a crazy person, came forth to claim it.
Because the timeline was so small and so definitely verified by independent witnesses that anyone who thinks otherwise isn't even grasping at straws because it'd be less probably than that.
|by Anonymous||reply 119||July 26, 2020 8:17 PM|
I like this old-timey take on the case:
"She never married, she embraced other things...."
Like eating pussy?
|by Anonymous||reply 120||July 29, 2020 6:28 PM|
i don't believe it was "absolutely impossible". i think it was highly unlikely.
the case was not, and can not be proven beyond a reasonable doubt.
i don't think of this crime in terms of comparison to O.J. it is much more comparable to JonBenet Ramsey.
|by Anonymous||reply 121||August 2, 2020 3:04 AM|
I've toured the B&B but not slept there. I've read the books mentioned and think she did it for all the reasons listed above: money, motive, and opportunity. And Dad really was an asshole: the food was day old mutton stew, by then likely maggot-laden, on a 90 degree day?
Fun fact: later in life Lizzie Borden drove an electric car. Waaaaay before Tesla. Or even golf carts.
|by Anonymous||reply 122||August 2, 2020 3:24 AM|
There is also her after the fact behavior: she told contradictory stories to the police, and probably destroyed evidence.
|by Anonymous||reply 123||August 2, 2020 3:44 AM|
Of course she did it, and the maid was in on it.
|by Anonymous||reply 124||August 2, 2020 3:56 AM|
I don’t think she did it. It was either the put-upon maid, or the male relative who darted in and out of town.
Both victims sound like horrors, so no great loss.
|by Anonymous||reply 125||August 2, 2020 4:13 AM|
Is this thread started by the same fan who’s into Leslie Van Houten, and the Zodiac Killer?
|by Anonymous||reply 126||August 2, 2020 5:48 AM|
The worldly actress who eventually caused a rift between the two Borden sisters, saucy Nance O’Neil.
Lezzie liked her while Emma did not think the relationship fitting.
|by Anonymous||reply 127||August 2, 2020 5:55 AM|
Did you know? After the funeral for Mrs. and Mrs. Andrew J. Borden at Oak Grove cemetery, their bodies were taken to a holding tomb. There remains of Andrew and Abby Borden remained for about one week awaiting further "directions". At that time (and unbeknownst to the Borden sisters), the bodies were removed from holding tomb and taken to the Ladies Comfort Station (basically the loo), where further extensive autopsies were conducted on both bodies. This included removing skulls of both Andrew Borden and his wife. They would be used as evidence at Lizzie Borden's trial, and their being produced was a shock to everyone including the defendant who I believe promptly fainted.
Eventually the skulls were placed into small containers (after plaster casts were made) and buried just above respective bodies where they lie still today.
Lizzie (Lisabeth) Borden lies buried at feet of her father and per her final will ordered her grave be "bricked over". Grave robbing had been a serious pestilence both in Great Britain and American burial grounds many years before, but had all but died out by time Lizzie Borden died. Thus many surmise Miss. Borden wanted to ensure somehow her eternal rest was not disturbed.
|by Anonymous||reply 128||August 2, 2020 7:20 AM|
Much is made of how Andrew Borden was supposedly a miser and horrible to his daughters. Apparently not much of this is true; accounts given by family members, and those who knew the man gave a different view, in fact they do say Andrew Borden was indulgent to his daughters, far more than many other contemporary fathers of his class.
Andrew Borden was a self made man, and like many who have managed to amass wealth he never forgot where he came from, and this likely was shown in his being considered a miser by the Borden girls. At time of his death Mr. Borden was an old man who knew his time remaining on earth was limited (was it ever), and actually was getting affairs in order to ensure his daughters wouldn't be left in poverty after he was gone.
As for Andrew Borden making the family house over to his wife Abby, there was nothing unusual or monstrous about it. Remember at that time few if any states had marital property laws entitling a wife to half or even a portion of her deceased husband's estate. Widows were often turned out of their home, farm or whatever with nothing more than the clothes on their backs by whoever inherited the property. This could be (and often was) their own sons.
Making a property over to a man's wife was something many middle class and above husbands did rather often. It ensured that whatever happened after their own demise the wife was provided for and protected.
|by Anonymous||reply 129||August 2, 2020 7:33 AM|
Andrew Borden was a chubby chaser.
|by Anonymous||reply 130||August 2, 2020 8:58 AM|
For those of you saying Abby caught Lizzie and the maid licking pussies, it was a sweltering day, Lizzie was on her period and their hygiene was poor
|by Anonymous||reply 131||June 3, 2021 3:27 PM|