Vincente Minnelli

He like boys. OK. Librarian - Schwell.

Liza has ANOTHER half sister? Why do we never hear about her?

He was nice, he was soft and gentle, he was quiet and thoughtful, he was a ?

He was a GREAT director who could do EVERYTHING.

r4 is right.

Liza has always said that she got her dreams from her father.

God knows where she got her drive.

GENIUS director; he had his flops, but at his best, he was an artist.

Clang clang clang went his nutsack

On, on, on Tom Drake's head

He was not a handsome man.

R5, R5, we all know that. Read OP's question again and come back later with an answer to it.

Here's a photo of sisters Christiane Minnelli and Liza Minnelli.

Another photo of Liza with her sister Christiane, whom the family calls "Tina Nina":

I am always AMAZED by his filmography, was there any other director who had such range? I'm not an expert on directors or movies, but he really seemed to be unique.

Christiane and Lorna HATE each other.

If you have Twitter here's a pic of Liza with her nephew on the Minnelli side. He has a younger sister, too, who had a baby a few years ago. So Liza is a great-aunt (and now again since Lorna recently became a grandma).

I don't have Twitter and the pic came up when I clicked your link, R14.

Look how great she looks without makeup.

[quote]I am always AMAZED by his filmography, was there any other director who had such range?

Howard Hawks

Michael Curtiz

Steven Soderbergh

Drunk sissy and Invisible sissy's son are wearing blue!

I am familiar with Howard Hawks, I know he did some classic westerns and I think he did His Girl Friday (one of my all time favorites). I don't think I've seen any of Curtiz's movies and only a few of Soderbergh's, but I still think Minelli was incredible.

I would never include Soderbergh on that list.

[quote]Liza has ANOTHER half sister? Why do we never hear about her?

She wasn't molested.

What about me?

[all posts by tedious, racist idiot removed.]

Very much like Freed Unit member, Lennie Hayton, although he never fathered a child.

[quote]Steven Soderbergh

To mention this untalented, exhibitionist hack in relation to Hawks or Minnelli shows very questionable taste an amazing ignorance of film history.

Tom Drake was very hot.

Has anyone on DL ever seen Minnelli's "The Cobweb?" Thoughts?

Pray tell, R22, short of gross homophobic stereotyping, what makes someone "clearly gay"?

[all posts by tedious, racist idiot removed.]

He was bisexual and tricked around with men while married and screwing Judy Garland. When Garland one day caught him sucking cock, she tried to slit her throat. True story.

I would say, R27, that marrying Judy Garland, fathering Liza Minnelli, directing Yolanda and the Thief, etc, and being the subject of several university press biographies that document numerous gay liaisons would pretty much indicate that the guy was "clearly gay."

There's zero documented proof of any gay liaisons. Even Scotty Bower didn't have any info on Minnelli.

That's not what I heard.

I think the only reason people care if Minnelli was bi or not is to provide an excuse for Garland's fucked up behavior.

OR that some gays boys like to fantasize they might have had a chance to latch onto her

R16 You forgot to mention the most versatile one of them all: William Wyler. Among the movies he made you can find westerns, historical epics, comedies, dramas, musicals, film noirs, psychological thrillers, a lesbian-related movie, a heist movie...It's funny he's kind of forgotten today (everyone knows movies like Ben-Hur, Roman Holiday and Funny Girl but few people know his name).

Garland tried to slit her throat after seeing that. You mean she didn't know he was gay? How naïve or stupid could she have been. I'm sure everyone in the business knew he was gay. Did she not know her father was gay too? Next we'll hear she didn't know Peter Allen was gay when she foisted him on Liza or that Liza didn't know he or most of her other husbands were gay. Either BS or these are the two stupidest women who ever lived.

r35 - Good call on William Wyler, but I don't think he's forgotten today. At least I hope not. Let's not forget he also directed:

The Heiress

The Best Years of Our Lives

Mrs. Miniver

The Little Foxes

The Letter

The Westerner

Wuthering Heights

Jezebel

and The Collector

A truly amazing career.

"Has anyone on DL ever seen Minnelli's "The Cobweb?" Thoughts?"

The one where everyone in a mental hospital spends two hours melodramatically arguing about the drapes? Love it! Think it ought to be on the official list of Camp Classics!

Minelli also directed the insane "Ziegfeld Follies", which is an Official Camp Classic if there ever was one. Here, behold Lucille Ball whipping a bunch of girls in cat outfits! No, really. Lucy whips girls in black cat outfits.

[R 18], I bet you probably have seen something directed by Michael Curtiz....

Captain Blood, The Charge of the Light Brigade, Four Daughters, The Adventures of Robin Hood, Angels With Dirty Faces, Dodge City, The Private Lives of Elizabeth and Essex, The Sea Hawk, The Sea Wolf, Yankee Doodle Dandy, Casablanca, Mildred Pierce, Life With Father, Flamingo Road, White Christmas, We're No Angels....and that's a short list.

For R 18, some Howard Hawks....The Dawn Patrol, Scarface(1932), Bringing up Baby, Gunga Din (with George Stevens), Only Angels Have Wings, Sergeant York, Ball of Fire, Air Force, To Have and Have Not, The Big Sleep, Red River, I Was a Male War Bride, Monkey Business, Gentlemen Prefer Blondes, Red River

OOPs, meant to type Rio Bravo instead of Red River at the end of that list of Hawks films.

So ugly.

But he made Judy feel pretty, and she loved him for it.

[quote]But he made Judy feel pretty, and she loved him for it.

And he made Liza look like him in drag.

Any more Minnelli GOSSIP?

I'd add OUT gay director George Cukor to that short list of directors who had broad ranges: comedy, dramas, musicals, etc.

DINNER AT EIGHT, DAVID COPPERFIELD, ADAM'S RIB, GASLIGHT, BORN YESTERDAY, MY FAIR LADY, LES GIRLS, A DOUBLE LIFE, LITTLE WOMEN, THE PHILADELPHIA STORY, CAMILLE, ROMEO & JULIET, HOLIDAY, THE WOMEN, A STAR IS BORN, LET'S MAKE LOVE, TRAVELS WITH MY AUNT, and THE WIZARD OF OZ and GONE WITH THE WIND (with Victor Fleming)

For years, there was speculation in the entertainment community that Minnelli was gay or bisexual. A biography by Emanuel Levy, Vincente Minnelli: Hollywood's Dark Dreamer, claims evidence that Minnelli did, in fact, live as an openly gay man in New York prior to his arrival in Hollywood, where the town that made him a film legend also pressured him back into the closet.[19] According to Levy: "He was openly gay in New York – we were able to document names of companions and stories from Dorothy Parker.

THE GAYEST GAY GAY GAY GAY GAY GAY GAY GAY GAY GAY WHO EVER GAYED

There were also rumors that he and Gene Kelly had sex but I just can't see that (literally OR figuratively). Gene was respectful of Minnelli's artistic genius and they had a great working relationship but I can't figure how Kelly could ever have gotten hard over....Vincente Minnelli.

I heard that Judy walked in on Vincent and Gene Kelly, and that's when she slit her throat.

Of course, Judy was always trying to commit suicide after the age of 24 or so. It's amazing she made it as long as she did.

All Liza's Minnelli relatives look like normal people. Can you imagine her at Thanksgiving dinner?

These people keep "walking in on" other people doing sexual things like it happens all of the time. Maureen O'Hara claimed she "walked in on" John Ford making out with a top male star. I think I remember Miriam Hopkins "walking in on" Bette Davis who happened to have Miriam's husband's cock (Anatole Litvak) in her mouth. How are they "walking in on" these events? Don't people have locks on their doors?

Have you ever been "walked in on" or have you ever "walked in on" somebody?

(BTW, Bette and Miriam's film "Old Acquaintance)" is coming up on TCM shortly.)

I don't believe the story about Judy catching him in bed with someone. It was well known he was gay, and she was around gay men all her life - if they weren't in a marriage of convenience, I'd be very surprised.

I've always heard and read over the years, not that the Minnelli half sisters are particularly close, but that they're united in their love for their father and have always been on good terms. But what do I or any of us actually know?

Vince and Liza used to tease Judy how her Oscar wasn't a "real" Oscar.

Judy would say "You haven't got even a fake one," and Liza said, "Just give me a few years."

And Vince would say "get away from Lorna and play with Christine, your REAL sister." Then the three of them would mock the Luft's lack of talent.

Gay men can be wonderful fathers. Especially 60 years ago IF they hadn't been left feeling totally trapped and helpless. They'd been through it all and knew how to teach.

When Vincent came to MGM everyone noticed his tan and green eye shadow and purple lipstick, and they were shocked when he married Judy, because they thought he wasn't going to marry any woman.

Hypnotic.....

Wasn't he involved with Richard Halliday (Mr. Mary Martin) when they were both set dressers or ribbon clerks or whatever in 1940s Hollywood--until Halluday and Martin made a lavender marriage (that somehow produced a child, Heller) and Minnelli married Garland. Of course, Janet Gaynor and Adrian also produced a child, despite the more or less accepted assumption that Martin and Gaynor were lovers.

R24 re. SS, you said it! Curtiz was terrific and did it all: Mildred Pierce, Casablanca, Yankee Doodle Dandy, Romance on the High Seas, Charge of the Light Brigade... A Warners stalwart.

Serious queation: in the old days so many of these lavender marriages produced children, was there some method that helped them....I mean like a turkey baster device but provoded by a clinic with a doctor's care? I'm really asking seriously.

[quote]The one where everyone in a mental hospital spends two hours melodramatically arguing about the drapes?

This sounds just like Datalounge!

He had million dollars when he died. He left a $100,000 to his widow and only $5,000 to his younger daughter Christiane.

Everything else he left to Liza, who undoubtedly bought drugs with it.

Around Christmas I watched a Bing Crosby bio (American Masters?). Bing Crosby brought Judy Garland on his show after the suicide attempt mentioned upthread. I hadn't realized the circumstances of the attempt. At any rate, she was terribly nervous about people looking for the scar on her throat. He asked the audience to welcome back a friend who'd been through a rough patch, let her know how much we love her, and coaxed her into performing. It was pretty sweet from one big star to another.

I agree that Minelli had a wonderful and varied roster of films. The first name I thought of to compare him with was George Stevens, as he had done comedies, westerns, dramas. The only musical I can think of is [italic]Swing Time[/italic]. I think we're just in a different era of filmmaking. Few directors are offered that sort of variety of projects. Scorsese has done a musical, but no westerns. If you count [italic]Lovin' Molly[/italic] as a western, then Sidney Lumet would probably be the last director with that breadth and depth in direction.

Another George Stevens musical is "A Damsel in Distress" with Fred Astaire, George Burns and Gracie Allen, and Joan Fontaine. George and Gracie are lots of fun dancing with Fred. Joan, not so much.

Any money Vincent had in later years was from Liza. She supported him and wife Lee, and Lee after Vincent died. Well documented- especially when Liza tried to sell the Beverly Hills house and move Lee.

I read a biography and can't remember whose it was but I remember it saying other musical female stars, like Ann Miller, were shocked when they got engaged and Judy didn't realize he was gay. They tried to tell her and she didn't believe it. They even pointed out that he wore a smidge of purple eyeshadow. Judy put it down to his being artistic and they felt he was marrying her to cover and to help save her because she was a great talent. Like above, it was mentioned that he made her feel safe and loved.

I never knew Liza had another sister!

R66 she was stellar in "The Emperor Waltz. " And don't forget "Serenade!"

How come? r13

R68, Judy loved the way he made her look in MMISL. His first film was Cabin in the Sky, which is quite charming.

He was a genius. Anyone that could take Judy's mug and make it look attractive deserves an Oscar.

r74 you are a fucking asshole. Die in a grease fire, troll bastard.

"When Garland one day caught him sucking cock, she tried to slit her throat."

She never caught Minnelli in the act with another man (I think she did with her second gay husband Mark Heron). But his dwindling sexual interest in her (which probably was never that much to begin with) finally made her face up the the fact that she was married to a homosexual. The throat slitting business happened when she finally got fired by MGM. And it really wasn't much of a throat slitting; it was more like a scratch. Even so, Minnelli got hysterical and had to be slapped by some friend who had to witness the whole pathetic scene. Such was the life a glamorous movie star and her revered director hubby.

Watch THE CLOCK, one of Judy's rare dramatic non-singing roles. Minnelli directed the hell out of that film and got great performances from Judy and Robert Walker. It's a sweet, romantic film.

MADAME BOVARY was also well done by Vincente, despite Jennifer Jones' fluttery mannerisms.

The waltz scene in Bovary is stunning. You see his musical background at the service of character exposition.

He was good at melodrama, like Some Came Running, one of the few Shirley Maclaine movies I've liked.

R62 Jesus, the film sounds deranged!

Here's Vincente.

He was de gay. Were all Garland's husbands gay?

r70 You mean a POOR sister.

He was so odd looking. I find it hard to believe anyone fancied him. Ok so Judy was a mess emotionally and was always looking for a father figure. But generally I heard he picked up rough trade. Didn't Judy catch him with a guy?

Loved to wear lilac eyeshadow on set.

I feel bad for the siblings that time forgets, like Joan Crawford's grateful children.

Or the non princess child of Orson who was Rita's daughter.

Re:81

Her first husband David Rose and her third Sid Luft weren't gay

IMHO this was Judy and Vincente at the absolute pinnacle of their (and MGM's) power:

Who (Stole My Heart Away)? with Judy as Marilyn Miller in Till The Clouds Roll By. Minnelli did not direct the film but was brought in to stage this number and everything about it shows what the studio did best. The camera work, the choreography, the orchestrations, the art direction, Judy in that glorious golden yellow gown = PERFECTION!

As a footnote: Judy was a few months pregnant with Liza when this was filmed.

Read somewhere that, given Garland's pregnancy, the crew joked about the title "Who?"

R87, that yellow dress against the guys in black, is inspired. I think Charisse in VM's Band Wagon may have had a dress of a similar color. ("New Sun in the Sky"?) If BW isn't the greatest musical ever, it sure is up there.

Sid Luft looks gay

Elizabeth Taylor's husbands were all gay

So were Debbie-s.

Yes Debbie was a lesbian

I guess Taylor was a lesbian no straight woman has ever married 7 gay men

Flamed from outer space.

[quote]R58 Wasn't he involved with Richard Halliday (Mr. Mary Martin) when they were both set dressers or ribbon clerks or whatever in 1940s Hollywood--

Are they still hiring ribbon clerks?

I may have found my calling.

Sid Luft was a gambling addict who pissed away all of Judy's money.

[quote]R63 He had million dollars when he died. He left a $100,000 to his widow and only $5,000 to his younger daughter Christiane. Everything else he left to Liza, who undoubtedly bought drugs with it.

What a CUNT. $5,000 to the nobody daughter (probably working in a bakery, like poorRoslyn) and $900,000 to the Broadway star / Oscar winner daughter?

Was there some “for reasons which are well known to them” clause??

R96 Only at Michael's. Sigh.

Vincent must have been worth tons of $$$$, how'd he die with only a million dollars? Was he known for living above his means? He's before my time, but I find him intriguing.

Poor Liza. She never liked her stepmother but agreed to keep her in Vincente's big house (which cost a lot of $$ to keep running) and support her after Vincente died. The old bitch was around 80 years old at the time, so Liza figured it would only last a handful of years and then she'd be free of the financial burden. Well, the old bitch ended up living to be almost 100 and Liza had to shell out tons of $$ for nearly two decades! A total pain in the ass to do for someone you never liked in the first place. Apparently the stepmother refused to move to a condo or a smaller house, and Liza was stuck shelling out all that cash.

Here are photos of the house, which has sat empty for years.

Numbers like "Who" give me a chuckle, knowing how tiny Judy was and that she had to have chorus dancers who were just as tiny.

Sid Luft was not a fag and I'm the dame that can prove it.

Someday I want to do a study and make a list of al the MGM musical leading ladies in yellow. I'd bet it was more common than leading lady red. Emerald green was another favorite color for them. Think Cyd Charisse in Singin' in the Rain ballet and Ann Miller in Shakin' the Blues Away.

R103, they certainly are among the queeniest I've seen.

Elizabeth Taylor and Liza Minnelli were partners

Vincente staged Judy's "A Great Lady Has an Interview" from Ziegfeld Follies. I like the goof when Judy's dress gets caught in the legs of one of the dancers, but they carry on.

Isn't that dress Judy wears in "Great Lady...." the same dress she wore in the finale of Easter Parade and also the same dress she wears singing "I Wish I Were in Love Again" with Mickey Rooney?

I suspect between her weight fluctuations and general unreliability to show up for costume fittings, MGM's wardrobe department threw up their hands and just kept recycling the same costume, albeit tinting it to give it a slightly different hue.

The "I Wish I Were in Love Again" dress was re-cut when Judy came back to film "Johnny One Note" as a second number in the film. She had gained weight so they removed the belt and let the dress out. Totally jarring when the second number is supposed to come right after the first (the audience asks Judy to sing a solo) and her dress all of sudden is a different gown! As if viewers aren't supposed to notice.

Vincent died broke. He hadn't worked in years

Annie gives it her pizzazz, r108....

But neither compares to Lana's version...

R108 The character in this song seems to have a European accent but who is it??..

One site claims "it was designed for Greer Garson. However, when Garson backed out, it became a number about Garson, lampooning her accent, image, and Oscar-bait dramatic roles. However, the satire was all in good fun, in large part due to the lyrics by Kay Thompson".

? ? ?

R35, R45 I think it's a bit cruel to mention the great Wyler and the great Cukor in this thread. They were both directors keenly aware of the subtleties in adult relationships.

Minnelli was excellent at handling dance numbers, color and movement but he had the subtlety of an organ-grinder.

Quite a few of his straight dramas were clunkers. He wasn't able to cover miscast actors or bad acting. 'Tea and Sympathy' was embarrassing and Designing Woman had lame comedy and prehistoric attitudes to gender roles.

I ADORE Wyler!

She's pretty terrific in that. I think that in the stage production of Silk Stockings she had the role that Janis Paige had in the film.

Gretchen's legs can go higher —and wider— than Mitzi's.

R117 Minnelli didn't do 'Silk Stockings'

Who said he did?

I'm sure you all know that, OT, Janis Paige, last year when she was 95, published a MeToo letter about having been harrassed by Alfred Bloomingdale 70 years ago.

Three strip Technicolor is still the best color film system ever devised but it did have its limitations. Often times it would take multiple film tests to determine which exact shades of color produced the wanted results when printed to film. And certain colors photographed in the process looked much better than others which often influenced costume and set design.

For example, silver doesn't photograph well in color and in early Technicolor it resulted in L. Frank Baum's Silver Slippers in The Wizard of Oz being changed to Ruby Red Slippers. And in Gone With the Wind, the opening scene, which was shot five times for various reasons, the first reshot was because the Tarleton Boys hair came out a highly bright carrot orange color despite their hair having been dyed only a modest red.

This is why I come to DL!!!!

The gay influence of Minnelli

R112 - It doesn't make sense for Ann Miller to do The Great Lady Has an Interview because she never played a Great Lady. She was always known for her torso.

The Great Lady Has an Interview was indeed written for Greer Garson and when she declined to do it, I've never felt Garland was the right person to take it on despite Minnelli's direction. They were totally different types and the intended satire was lost.

But Greer then attempted an against-type musical role with Julia Misbehaves.

How could Greer have ever sung it and moved the way Judy did, though?

If Greer had done it would everyone have thought she was parodying Norma Shearer?

No because by that time Norma had left MGM and films.

R128 I could never warm to Greer.

So fake and those falling nostrils!

R131 **flaring nostrils**

SHILK SHTOCKINGSH

Greer kicks up her heels......

That article about "the gay influence of Minnelli" is suspect. It says that "Meet Me in St. Louis" was child star Garland's first adult film. Which is totally untrue. In fact, it was just the opposite. She had already made Little Nelly Kelly (with a death scene), For Me and My Gal and Presenting Lily Mars. She precisely did not want to make MMISL, at first, because she had been making adult films (playing adult characters, not porn). She balked. If that author got that major fact wrong, what else is untrue in that article?

You're absolutely right, r135, but I've heard MMISL cited as Judy's first adult role before by other sources. I wonder why that is?

It makes ZERO sense, r136, because the character of Esther Smith is a 17-year-old high school senior. It is not an "adult role." Which is precisely why Judy did not want to do it at first. She was done playing teenagers.

r111

Really? I guess the 1.1 million dollars his estate was valued at in his publicly accessible probated will, is just made up.