Madonna's Sex book

The book wasn't sexy and along with Body of Evidence demonstrated to the public that she was a sex-obsessed egomaniac who couldn't get enough of herself. Naturally, the public got sick of her after that as she was way too overexposed. No wonder she did "Evita" and "Ray of Light".

"Ray of Light" was a huge critical success and many consider it her best album. But even before that, "Bedtime Stories" was a good comeback with sweeter love songs and catchy ballads.

But "Sex" wasn't sexy (and it fell apart all the time) and "Erotica" is my least favorite album of hers despite "Deeper and Deeper" and "Fever."

She was on top a lot longer than many other pop stars. She stretched her limited creativity it as far as she could, trying many different outlets (photography, acting, directing), but with doing that she exposed how truly mediocre she is as an artist.

R2, the remixes for her Erotica cd are often much better than the album versions, which is strange. She set out to make a pure dance cd like her debut but she ended up making one that sounded just cold and boring (remixes excepted). The songs on the album versions just seem to go on and on and there are too many useless tracks on Erotica like "Words".

Also, it's interesting to remember that prior to Emancipation of Mimi, Mariah Carey's career was pretty much dead (I didn't hear of her between 2002 and 2005), but the Emancipation of Mimi actually sold more than Madonna's comeback, Ray of Light.BEdtime STories fell pretty fast on teh album charts.

Bedtime Stories was a commercial disappointment except for Take a Bow, which spent a long time at #1.

I think Ray of Light, Music, and Confessions would all qualify as huge - she did enjoy something of a renaissance around the turn of the millennium. Then she remembered that she likes to be in movies and promptly sunk her career.

[quote] Then she remembered that she likes to be in movies and promptly sunk her career.

Bingo! MDNA will rank as one of the worst albums of her career. (I actually enjoy the poorly received American Life more than MDNA.) Confessions on the Dance Floor was her last great album, IMO.

She was completely overexposed - and this was the pre-Internet generation. I wonder what her career would have been like if she became a star in the internet age.

Everyone suddenly realized how truly ugly she was.

It's one of the classic cases of a star trying too hard and going way to far and (almost) killing their career. Remember the Immaculate collection at the time sold 6 million(it eventually sold over 10 million), so Erotica really stalled her career for sure.

No.

R10, Ray of light was an exception to the rule. Her two comebacks--Ray of Light and Confessions--were short lived.

I don't think the Sex book killed her career. All artists have a peak, no one stays at the top forever. She never really went away - Erotica and Bedtime Stories were considered sales disappointments in relation to what came before them but they both went multiplatinum and produced some top 10 hits.

R12, the op asks if it stalled her career and doesn't ask if it ended it. After the Sex book, it's clear her level of popularity never approached what it was before that. Mimi hit it big with Emancipation but Ray of Light was a decent success, I guess, but nothing huge like Emancipation was.

"After the Sex book, it's clear her level of popularity never approached what it was before that."

Yeah, but that's not necessarily BECAUSE of the Sex Book.

[quote]Naturally, the public got sick of her after that as she was way too overexposed.

You can say that again.

Erotica came out in late '91 and music was changing. Grunge was just starting to come into the light.

The book and that shitty film actually detracted from the album which is one of her strongest releases. The album is pretty much pure House with some dance still thrown in the mix, but it was not of its time. Still it sold 6M copies, so it wasn't a total flop like that movie. The book sold out its printing pretty quickly, too. While people claimed to have hated it, they sure didn't waste anytime buying it.

I don't see how anyone could consider this "killing her career." Wasn't she top earning celeb last year? And that is 20+ years after the book.

[all posts by tedious, racist idiot removed.]

She is not an artist, in the strict sense of the word. She is the epitome of ambition and drive to achieve fame.

Well, the amount of shitty press Madonna's "SEX book received and deserved was pretty huge. It was enough to stop just about anything, at least temporarily.

Erotica remains my favorite Madonna album.

[quote]Erotica came out in late '91 and music was changing.

Incorrect - "Erotica" came out in late 1992.

[quote]It's one of the classic cases of a star trying too hard and going way to far and (almost) killing their career.

Yes. The "Sex" book was laughable, not shocking and the "Erotica" album showed just how awful of a songwriter she was without the help of the people she had usually worked with up to that point. Just listen to the cringe-worthy "Where Life Begins" or "Did You Do It?".

The song "Secret Garden" off Erotica is great. I scare myself by enjoying it as much as I do. I listened to it a few months ago on YouTube for the first time in, oh, 20 years. Jazz drumming, piano, raw sound -- I think this album was done entirely on 8-track tape, right?

[quote]The song "Secret Garden" off Erotica is great.

That was another piece of shit song from that album. The only good songs were the title track and "Rain". Everything else sounds like dated early 90's house shit.

Well, I stand corrected.

I thought the Sex book was kind of boring and so was Erotica. Deeper and Deeper and Secret Garden are fantastic songs, though.

Vadge ruined her momentum with the sex book for sure. A lot of people, even some of her fans, found this move to be VERY desperate and attention-whoring at its best. Come to find out all these years later, the images and themes of the book weren't even fucking original-they were ripped off from an old sex book published in France in either the late 1800s or early 1900s. Other images were ripped off of Bettie Page.

It's a shame her career wasn't over after this idiocy. Her level of narcissism and arrogance turned people off.

Also, question: does anyone think there will ever be another Madonna? Another female to come along and change the music world the way she did? So many current female popstars have taken things from her playbook that it's hard to see what's going to come next that will really be different.

R26 but Vadge built her career on taking things from other people's "playbook". Somehow she just became more famous for doing things that others had already done. It shouldn't be a big deal that younger girls copy her when she copied everyone else too.

R27 Thank you. I get so sick of Vadge's sad stans who actually think she's original when it's already been listed in other thread all the people SHE has copied and ripped off.

She stripped down to show the real logo and inspiration behind her music: Vadge.

Controversial sex has been part of Madonna's act since the beginning, or at least since Like a Virgin. It's one of those things that has kept her on top. She's had absolutely huge career despite or because of her open-mindedness about sex, it's just part of who she is and people love her for it. Some hate but remember that many times those same people also hate gays. Sex book was just one thing, she's had so many others that you can't really pinpoint only that one out.

She's been a chameleon and I think she's done what she's wanted. I'ver never been her biggest fan but I've always appreciated her support for gays, even if once again people here start shrieking how she's only used us.

It could have had an affect on radio play. They will indulge certain things and usually embrace female sexual exploitation but she was also dipping into the gay scene and radio is run by right wingers who have limited many gay men's careers in the US.

Maybe she went too far for them or they were receiving complaints.

"Erotica" is now regarded as her best album by the fans, and I happen to agree. It's also respected by critics decades later. Funny thing is, what these celeb hos are doing now, Madonna did first, and made people pay good money to see it. That's why I've been so surprised that Madonna didn't jump on the celebrity perfume, clothing lines, etc, bandwagon sooner. Madonna of the 90s would have been doing that. Anything to promote her brand.

"Bedtime Stories" saved her career, much like "Confessions on a Dancefloor" did. Both were damage-control albums.

Madonna peaked in the 1990s, image-wise, style-wise, music-wise, and don't forget "Evita", the biggest triumph of her career.

R32, BEdtime Stories didn't save her career, it BARELY went double platinum and fell of the album charts after peaking at number 3.

Evita is a boring movie and the only reason that cd supposedly sold so much as it did in the US, is because it is a double album, so it each album sale counts for 2x as much as a single cd.

The Sex book absolutely stalled her career. Globally, Erotica only sold something like 5 million copies. Compare that to Like a Virgin, True Blue and the Immaculate Collection (which sold between 20 and 30 million each) or even Like a Prayer which sold something like 14 million globally. It was her first album since her debut not to produce any number one hits on the Billboard singles chart. Except for Take a Bow, Bedtime Stories was just as much of a failure. As a side note, I find Bedtime Stories to be an annoyingly conflicted album. It found her trying to desperately appeal to the masses again with Babyface producing it and all, but it also found her trying to prove she still had an edge with songs like "Bedtime Stories" and especially the whiny "Human Nature". She was clearly trying to stay popular by kissing the public's ass while also posing as a rebel, as if she was making the Sex book to "defy sexual norms". No, Madonna, you just had your head up your ass and thought the public would love you no matter what you would did.

At the time, The New Yorker mag said that SEX was "more about layout than getting laid."

And for anyone who doesn't already know this, 'Human Nature' is her response to the book's poor reception: "Did I say something wrong? Oops! Didn't know I couldn't talk about sex," 'I'm not sorry," etc.

R35, that song "Human Nature" completely misses the point. Up until the Sex book, people would buy her shit when talked about Sex. "Justify My Love"--both the video and song--sold tons. It was only when she released the idiotic Sex book--her own vanity project--that people got disgusted in large numbers and it negatively impacted her music sales. The problem wasn't talking about sex--it was her egotistical belief that the public would buy her shit no matter what she did. She did it to herself.

I actually remembered it being rather exciting and novel and found nothing really offensive about it at all. She had mainstreamed sexuality and the fetish community in way that others had not done before her. It was also during that period when MTV would only play her videos after midnight due to racy content which did build intrigue from the masses but likely also limited album and single sales to some degree. The book was hardly porn - more a tamed down Mapplethorpe homage with a few of her celebrity friends thrown into the mix. No one read the bad commentary; it was essentially a slightly racy picture book. The worst part of it was the design of the book itself. That terrible ring binder didn't work and the pages ripped out easily. It was overpriced for what it was. I bought one anyway (I was 12 I think? so I used my Xmas money), but sadly it did not stand the test of time and I suppose that I tossed it out decades later after it ripped apart.

R37, you should look up Sherri Shepherd reading from Madonna's Sex book on yotube, it's hilarious.

It's hilarious if you read it on your own as well . . .

How much talent does it take to hitchhike naked? That picture stuck with me for some reason. Her stumpy little legs!

R39, and yet she claims she was trying to teach America a lesson about sexuality. No Madonna, this was all about your ego! That page just comes off like an airhead slut's diary entry. Like, why am I even reading this? It's not sexy in the slightest.

LOL R40 exactly,She's very well-proportioned which has served her well. But she's only 5 feet 2 inches tall.

Unlike Blond Ambition, I think on her recent tours she only casts dancers who don't accentuate how short she is.

"...does anyone think there will ever be another Madonna?"

No.

Bedtime Stories was such a great and strong album, but unfortunately it suffered from the "Sex" fallout and didn't do as well as it deserved to. The lead single off of Bedtime Stories, the now-forgotten "Secret," is one of the top 5 best songs she's ever done.

R44 = Shep Pettibone*

*(co-writer of "Secret")

LOL no, I was a high school senior in CT when Bedtime Stories came out!

Going back to your original question, OP, yes, the Sex Book is a turning point in her career. I think despite what she says about it, she regretted it. It was the first time her career experienced a nosedive, and it sent her reeling. If you read that letter she wrote to John Enos that was released recently, you see the personal crises (however supremely narcissistic and borderline psychopathic) it threw her in.

The Sex Book, ironically, showed just how unsexy Madonna really was. She could have continued to coast on the old-Hollywood mystique that she perfected up until then, but a certain degree of implosion was had when she rebelled against that. She recovered surely but slowly with Bedtime Stories and hitting the jackpot with Ray of Light and then working her way up to Confessions (experiencing the American Life disaster throughout that period).

Then she turned 50, and we found ourselves in another bizarre direction.

That all said, I still hold "Erotica" as one of her best albums. Completely overlooked and underrated. It was chill house before chill hit the mainstream.

I've been a fan of hers since the beginning, and "Erotica" is easily my favorite of her albums, followed closely by "Ray of Light". I also love her "I'm Breathless" CD, which wasn't a huge hit for her overall but was very fun and included "Vogue".

The problem with the sex book to me is that is was unappealing, full of unnatractive people and just vulgar. The "text" are ridiculous and the opposite of arounsing.

The worst part being that looking at it through the years the revulsion and contempt grows.

It's a nasty, ugly book. It wasn't about sex at all.

[quote]Her level of narcissism and arrogance turned people off.

This.

I remember around this time in her career she was so full of herself she sounded like a raging egomaniac in every interview. Here are a couple of choice quotes, not word for word---just from my memory. I only remember them because she was so gross in her complete narcissism and lack of self awareness.

1. "I'm often asked if it bothers me when fans imitate the way I dress and my style. I don't care about that. I would much rather they imitate the way I THINK."

2. "People won't fully understand what I was trying to achieve with my artistic vision until I'm a much older woman."

I really see her tone-deaf, try-hard social media use to be her extension of the Sex book period. So many awkward, unflattering pictures of herself which she obviously thinks are sexy, along with her idiotic captions that would be embarrassing for a 20-something, let alone a woman approaching 60.

I wonder how she explains the sex book to her kids. She was so puritanical and strict with them growing up. They couldn't even watch TV. What a phony.

"Bad Girl" on 'Erotica" is a great song and video

love the Bad Girl video and song. Her performance of it on SNL is also good.

Bad Girl is an underrated song. Beautiful, really. And the video is one of her best.

Madonna was bigger than Jesus

Not a big Madge fan, but Ray of Light was HUGE.

Bad Girl is my favorite video of all time.

Bad Girl was a great video, the song, I think peaked at #36. Shame really...When the CD was first issued, thought "Thief of Hearts" was going to be a hit single. It was bitchy and the production was great. Was living in South Beach at the time and heard it at Warsaw and the place went nuts.

Bad Girl is a great song and video (directed by David Fincher, and inspired by Looking for Mr. Goodbar and Wings of Desire). I am surprised, though, that they released it. It is a bit of a downer of a song and it is not a love song, but it is quite complex for a pop ballad (about loneliness and self-destruction).

The Sex book definitely had an effect on her career. With the Sex book, I think she stopped being the cultural force like she had been before. She had been building and building with each controversy - the Like a Prayer video, the Blond Ambition tour (namely, the Like a Virgin performance), the Justify My Love video and then Truth or Dare - that with the Sex book, there was nowhere else to go. She had peaked with the controversies. What more could she do? She was overexposed, literally. And it also took away some of the mystery about her. All the hype over the book and you got to see Madonna naked over and over again. I remember when the book was released, we went out and bought the book and were excited to see it, to find out what the hoopla was about. Once we finished looking at the book, I could literally feel those around me thought it was cheap and vulgar, and you could sense the tide turning for Madonna very then. Maybe she had gone too far.

For me, there was nothing unique about it, and personally, I don't care for Meisel's photography. He made Madonna look harsh and unflattering. Someone like Herb Ritts would have made it less dark and more erotic and sensual.

Maureen Orth wrote an excellent article in Vanity Fair in advance of the book. It was a great snapshot of a particular period in Madonna's career. She was literally at the top at this point and Orth's article pretty much sensed that M's empire was about to fall. Even Liz Rosenberg was nervous about the book - with good reason.

Thief of Hearts was a great song! It should've been a single instead of the dreary Bad Girl.

Some of her best music was from that era and she looked like a million bucks - the best and most gorgeous ever. Now...not so much. It's not her fault; age happens to everyone. At least she has photographic evidence of being stunning naked.

R62, she looked great with the long blonde hair. She looked horrible when she cut off her hair.

Her worst look was that True Blue short hair phase. Not appealing at all.

She definitely ruined The Gaiety Theatre by making it famous. Herds of screeching women started showing up after the book's photos shoot there became popular. The dancer-whores became much more nervous and reserved.

I find interesting how the Sex book itself--as an object--has often been derided for its poor construction and overall sloppy presentation. You would think that a control freak like Madonna is purported to be would never allow such an embarrassing fiasco to happen. (I think her ability to control is overstated: her high place in the corporate echelon means that she in fact controls very little.) Since the book was already expensive and overpriced you would think Madonna would have wanted to produce an objet d'art not a shoddy book that came apart minutes after handling.

The Sex book was such a huge controversy back then. In today's world, it would be a big "whatever."

IT fell apart? Was the cover metal? Ugh wasn't she blowing some old guy and shaving someone else's pubes? Yeah, not sexy. Then that Heidi get up it's the lamb...what was that all about.

Bestselling or not, she always had a song on the radio & a video on MTV throughout the 90s. Getting knocked up by her personal trainer was HAWT lol and being Mrs. Guy Ritchie who was quite the it boy (for a MINUTE) kept her relevant beyond the music.

[quote] find interesting how the Sex book itself--as an object--has often been derided for its poor construction and overall sloppy presentation. You would think that a control freak like Madonna is purported to be would never allow such an embarrassing fiasco to happen. (I think her ability to control is overstated: her high place in the corporate echelon means that she in fact controls very little.) Since the book was already expensive and overpriced you would think Madonna would have wanted to produce an objet d'art not a shoddy book that came apart minutes after handling.

What the hell were you doing with it? Had mine for years and sold it for $200. My friend still has his and it's fine. Yes the front back cover are metal. The pages were in a metal spiral. It came in a sealed Mylar bag and had a CD single of "Erotica"

Mylar SEX book bag

C'mon "Rain" is a great song and video. And she looks great too..

She showed her tired, sagging snatch!

Really, the worst thing about the "Sex" book was how many coffee tables its sharp steel cover scratched.

Ray of Light released in 1998 sold something like 20 million copies worldwide. It was huge. And Madonna sold more albums in the 90s than she did in the 80s. Every single release of hers in the 90s went multiplatinum in the US.

Madonna had a SECOND peak period from 96-01 following her intitial 84-91 peak

Also Madonna's touring numbers WENT THRIOGH THE ROOF following the Sex book

Her 1993 Girlie Show made $70 million at just 39 dates vs. Her 1990 Blond Ambition world tour which did $60 million at 57 dates

Since 2001, her six world tours have collectively grossed over 1.3 BILLION at the box office, making her the highest grossing solo, male or female, touring artist in history

And from 2002 onwards, album sales all around started to go to shit, Madonna's album sales from 1992-2002, before album sales declined, were still really good

Erotica- 6 million worldwide

Bedtime Stories-7 million worldwide

Something to Remember- 10 million worldwide

Evita soundtrack-14 million worldwide

Ray of Light-20 million worldwide(one of the biggest selling albums worldwide in history)

Music-15 million

GHV2 (second greatest hits) 7 million

That's 79 million albums sold worldwide in just that TEN year span of 92-02, that's more albums sold in ten years then Janet Jackson has sold worldwide her entire 35 year career.

It's all about perspective

She didn't have a single #1 album in the '90s. I had a couple.

I have an Oscar, GG, Emmy, Grammy and didn't have to show my pussy or tits!

Oh, here we go @ R76.

um, come on, Cher... you showed it all to a whole ship full of men. A few strings does not count as modesty.

I vaguely recall she stole some imagery from 120 Days of Sodom, which was an infamously unerotic movie about the commercialisation of sex.

Which is interesting because she produced a wildly commercial product, that was overtly sexual and was criticised in every quarter for being as far from erotic as it could possible be, and which was backed up by an album of dance music that is pretty cold and distant.

I'm not arguing for a second that that's what she intended - she clearly thought she was producing the ultimate in erotic entertainment and then failed dismally. But it's ironic (and more than a little amusing) that her dismal failure produced a multi layered, pitch perfect concept piece about sex comodified to the point that it becomes ugly, unenjoyable and cold. And all completely by accident.

^^ commodified, even.

Tom's rage and jealousy over Henry being "the pretty one" on the set made him lose focus.

LOL wrong thread!

R76 yeah she didn't have a #1 album in the 90s, but she had 5 #2 peaking albums including The Immaculate Collection which sold more copies than ANY Streisand or Cher album despite NOT going #1. It charted for YEARS and sold between 10-12 million copies in the US alone and over 30 million worldwide

She's had 5 #1 albums in the US since 2000 though, every studio album except Rebel Heart, which peaked at #2 went to #1 in the US

Imteresting fact, Cher has NEVER had a #1 or #2 peaking album in the US in the 50 plus years of her career.

R76 but Madonna's #2 peaking albums in the 90s like The Immaculate Collection and Ray of Light STILL outsold EVERY SINGLE album Janet has put out in her 35 year career.

And in the 90s Madonna won a bunch of Grammy's, a Best Actress Golden Globe, performed two Best Song Oscar winning songs, ran her own record label, had one of the fastest selling books in history with SEX, started in 3 successful movies (Dick Tracy, A League of Their Own and Evita) and had at the time the highest grossing documentary film of all time with her 1991 Blond Ambition tour documentary film Truth or Dare.

R77 didnt Cher have her bare ass exposed on the cover of her last album a few years back? At 67

And Cher's ENTIRE career was founded and based on her marraige to Sonny Bono

Don't try to front...

[quote]It's all about perspective

Lol, yeah, you keep telling yourself that.

Whoops, here we go...

FFS can we keep the topic on Madonna?

Janet was the highest earning singer two times in the '90s. Madonna wasn't.

Did somebody say Cher?

R87 and Madonna has sold more albums WORLDWIDE than BOTH of them

And Madonna has more #1 albums (8) than Janet (7)

So what's your point Janbot?

Id rather have an album NOT peal at #1 and have longevity and sell a lot than an album go to #1 and fall quickly

Ray of Light peaked at #2 but sold about 5 million in the US. American Life went to #1 for a week but hasnt even sold 1 million in the US since 2003. Des that mean AL was the bigger album because it went to #1 for a week and then fell hard than ROL despite the fact that ROL sold FIVE times as many copies in the US

Youre "logic" doesn't make much sense

[quote]Id rather have an album NOT peal

Peal?

R90 WRONG.

In 1992 Madonna signed the biggest contract ever in music history a $60 million eight year deal with Time Warner

Madonna was the highest earning woman in music, according to Forbes list in BOTH 1991 and 1994

Since 2000, Madonna has made more money than any other female artist according to Forbes. Most notably in 2013 when Madonna made $125(!) million in ONE year, making her THE HIGHEST EARNING CELEBRITY OF 2013. Period...

Janet hasn't been on the Forbes list in years, Madonna is always on the list

In between Janet's historic string of #1 albums that went from 1986-2001 (she was the first female to have 5 consecutive #1 albums on the Billboard 200 chart), there were two #2s--Damita Jo and 20 YO, which were followed up by two more #1s. If DJ and 20 YO had've hit the summit, that would have been 9 #1s. I think that would've tied her with Babs.

Fucking take your Janet Jackson shit somewhere else.

This thread is reeking of Janet's stretched out pussy. Give it a rest.

R95 um Madonna also had 5 consecutive #1 albums from 2000-2012 and she had a further SIX #2 peaking albums, if they all went to #1, Madonna would have 14 #1 albums in the US instead of 8

So no Janet would of still been behind

And did you know that Streisand has released over 100 albums in her career

Nuts...

[italic]janet. is the fifth studio album by American recording artist Janet Jackson, released on May 18, 1993, by Virgin Records America. Prior to its release, Jackson was at the center of a high-profile bidding war over her recording contract. In 1991, her original label A&M sought to renew her contract, while others, such as Atlantic, Capitol, and Virgin all vied to sign her. After meeting with Virgin owner Richard Branson, she signed with the label for a $40 million contract, making her the world's then-highest paid musical act. Following the release of her first greatest hits compilation Design of a Decade: 1986–1996 (1995), Jackson's recording contract with Virgin was up for renewal, making her the subject of a high-profile bidding war among parties including Sony Music, The Walt Disney Company, and Time Warner. [bold]She ultimately renewed her contract with Virgin for an unprecedented US$80 million, the largest recording contract in history at that time.[/italic][/bold]

Most of the people she got to pose in that ridiculous book looked almost embarrassed to be there. She went too far with that book; it wasn't sexy at all. It was provocative, but not for the reasons she hoped. It was the first whiff of Madge's desperation to be in the public eye at any cost, as well as her huge ego, assuming because it had her name on it, that it would be great. Nope...

R99 yes which was in 1996, 4 years AFTER Madonna signed a record breaking $60 milli contract with Time Warner

And in 2007, Madonna once again topped herself by signing ANOTHER record breaking contract, this time a $120 million deal with Live Nation for 3 albums and 4 tours

And what record breaking contracts was Janet signing in 2007?

I wasn't embarrassed!!!

"I did what my father said and let my mother mold me." --Janet, 1986

"That's what's my mama told me...I let my father mold me..." --Madonna, 1993

[quote]Fucking take your Janet Jackson shit somewhere else.

Racist

[quote][R95] um Madonna also had 5 consecutive #1 albums from 2000-2012

Janet was THE FIRST female to achieve that.

R100 SEX was a massive seller and is the most in demand out of print book. Madonna could make even MORE money if she wanted to rerelease it but it was embarrassing and hurt her music career commercially from 92-96

Evita started the recovery

She was still a big multiplatinum seller from 92-96 but she wasn't the DOMINANT biggest female seller worldwide like she was from 84-91.

Madonna had a bunch of hit singles(This Used to be My Playground, Erotica, Deeper and Deeper, Rain, I'll Remember, Secret, Take a Bow, You'll See) and sold 23 million albums from 92-96, not counting Evita. She was still a top tier seller

I think Madonna would rather everybody forget about the Sex book.

R106 is her publicist.

R106, This Used to be My Playground was the end of her peak. It was released before Erotica. It's pretty interesting--between 85 and 92, she had 10 number one hits. She only had two number one hits after this. In America, the Sex book definitely impacted her music career negatively.

She was but a blip from 1992-1996. She was lucky Alan Parker took pity on her and her 10-page loose leaf paper letter.

I'll Remember was another good song during her dark backlash period. To my knowledge, I don't think she ever performed it live in concert. Same for Take A Bow and This Used To Be My Playground.

This Used To Be My Playground was a big radio hit in the summer of '91, it was the theme song from A League Of Their Own. It's pretty much become one of Madonna's forgotten songs.

[quote] Guy Ritchie who was quite the it boy (for a MINUTE) kept her relevant

.....THIS never happened.

R109 yeah but she had tons of #1 albums and record breaking tours in the US since 1992

And 16 top 10 singles in the US from 1992-2012 .

As well as her biggest selling singles in the US, which didn't hit #1 on the Hot 100 byt went to #1 on the singles sales chart with 4 Minutes in 2008 over 3 million copies sold in the US her biggest selling US single and Hung Up with over 2 million sold in the US in 2005/2006

And Madonna was the biggest selling singles artist of the 2000s in the US according to Billboard with a whopping NINE #1 songs on the singles SALES chart but only ONE that went to #1 on the main Hot 100

US radio stopped playing MOST of her new material in the 2000s but she was still having #1 SELLING singles and albums left and right that decade in the US

So you're wrong

Remember the weird sex scenes in the movie Body of Evidence with Madonna and William Defoe? That was around the same time as the Sex book I think. Same thing. Fetishy "look at me" performance art. Not hot or sexy at all.

You can see the whole Sex book online. Viewing it today, some of it is still shocking (the skinhead lesbians, the rape fantasy, implied golden showers, Madonna burying her face in a guy's ass). And in some photos Madonna looks beautiful, but I am also surprised at how harsh and unflattering she looks in a lot of the photos. It does seem a bit desperate, and inauthentic. I don't think Madonna is an ultra-sexual person in real life, didn't Dennis Rodman say that she just laid there when they had sex?

R110 such a blip that Madonna apoeared on EVERY list for "Most overexposed celebrity" that period

Such a blip that according to Billboard, Madonna was the #6 biggest selling artist in the US in 1995 (singles and albums combined)

Or Take a Bow became the one of the most played songs in US radio history in 1995

Or MTV and VH1 continued to play the hell out of her new videos and even dedicated full fledged specials and "Madonna only" weekends during that period

Or talk shows like Montell Williams and Geraldo Rivera would dedicate WHOLE episodes with tabloid reporters talking about the "Madonna phenomon" and wheather she is a good role model for women and teens. Montell in 1993 and Geraldo in 1994

Such a blip that there was tabloid network primetime specials that were unauthorized and dedicated to her like 1993's "Madonna Exposed" and the fact that she continued to appear on major A list magazine covers during that time like Newsweek, Vogue, Paris Vogue, Vanity Fair, Entertainment Weekly, TV Guide, People, Esquire, Harper's Bazaar, Spin, Interview, Details etc.

Um yeah sure Jan.

Take a Bow was one of her biggest singles, and it was released after the book. It was her longest-running #1 song in North America.

Her transformation from '94 to '98 was one of her best moves. The Something to Remember album also helped in a big way. Not only was it a strategic move (a collection of her ballads), but the collection itself is excellent. She looks gorgeous on the cover. "Take a Bow" being a bit hit helped clear some of the damage. Its video along with "You'll See" (a kind of video sequel), were basically her Evita auditions and her preparing for the role.

It also helped that after having Lourdes, she took some time off (she was absent for most of 1997 except for some promo at the beginning of the year for Evita), so it gave the public break from her and made room for Ray of Light in 1998.

Her ballads were always very good. I wonder why pop stars don't do ballads anymore.

From 2000-2008, Madonna had a whopping NINE #1 singles on Billboards singles sales chart but only ONE (Music) made it to #1 on the main Hot 100 due to lack of radio play as Billboard combines both singles sales and airplay for their Hot 100

But NINE #1 selling singles for a woman in pop in her 40s during an eight year span, in the the third decade of her career is astonishing

No wonder Madonna was the biggest selling singles artist in the US during the 2000s

Madonna also had five consecutive #1 selling albums in the US from 2000-2012

So from 2000 onwards that's 14 combined #1 selling singles and albums for Madonna. That's even more than she had in the 80s where she had 5 #1 selling singles, although 7 went to #1 that decade on the Hot 100 because radio played the shit out of her back then and 3 #1 albums in the 80s. Thats a combined 8 #1 selling albums and singles for Madonna in the 80s vs. 14 for Madonna during the 2000s...

And I haven't even gotten to her incredible tour numbers during the 2000s

So no the Sex book didn't do any longterm damage to her career in the US. It did some shortterm damage but she obviously recovered from it.

The reduced radio play for her new material in the late 90s and 2000s would of happened anyway since Madonna had hit 40 at the time and radio with a few exceptions doesn't play older artists.

Although US radio played the shit out of Music in 2000/2001

We all know the rundown of Madonna's career and hit singles, you fucking annoying Aspie. STFU already. Don't you have drawers and cupboards to organize for the 500th time this month?

Lol, like I said, he's either her publicist or a really pathetic uberfan.

And she still didn't have a number 1 album stateside in the '90s.

The image that sticks with me about SEX is that she's was WAY too aggressively sexual and fetish obsessed. Not everyone is into cocky, selfish, obnoxious Doms who are only about their own pleasure, male or female. There was no connection with any of the other humans in the photos. They were props for her to use and discard at her whim. She foisted her version of hot sex on the public and not everyone found it sexy. At that time, she was so full of herself that she dismissed anyone who criticized her as a prude or a misogynist. She wrongly assumed everyone was afraid of her overt sexual power.

[quote]—No honey, you're just a plain, old ordinary jerk and the book proved it.

Lol

She clearly has esteem issues when it comes to other women in the industry who've had massive success. She's had public feuds at some level with everyone from Janet to Whitney to Mariah to even Gaga--someone young enough to be her daughter, and it's not a good look. When that letter she penned years ago about Sharon Stone and Whitney was leaked a couple of weeks ago, I was not a bit surprised about the content of it.

Was Vanilla Ice dressed in the book?

r126 only shirtless.

Boo then the hot one in the book was way too dressed.

R125 it was NEVER CONFIRMED that it was legit, there's rumors that it wasn't. And it was a PRIVATE LETTER from 1993

Madonna has NEVER said anything negatively PUBLICLY about Whitney and is good friends in 2017 with Sharon Stone.

In fact Sharon is always praising Madonna on her Twitter.

She also never feuded with Janet. Janet said negative things about Madonna in 1994 so she did the first shot, Madonna was asked about it and all Madonna said was that "it was transparent" and that "I've never even met her". Hardly feuding

Since then Madonna has said nice things about Janet even saying that she loved her Discipline album in 2008

The Gaga thing happened after Gaga went on natoinal tv and LIED saying that Madonna gave her permission to use Express Yourself for Born This Way. Once again, Gaga not only ripped off her song but blatantly LIED about it with a conversation

MOST celebs talk shit on Madonna and start a feud with her NOT the other way around

Also you're bringing up National Enquirer type gossip and shit from in Janet and Whitney's case over 20 years ago. We've all changed since then. Even Madonna herself has said that until she had Lourdes she didn't like who she was really in her 20s and early to mid 30s.

Madonna hasn't said anything remotely negative about another entertainer in YEARS

Damn, this thread was interesting until the Janet Jackson nutjob got involved.

Thread closed.

I thought Hagdonna claimed John-John was lousy in bed, not Rodman about Hagdonna. I'd liked to have seen Rodman plow J-J, not Hag with her beef-jerky flaps.

Christ, JanBot is fucking tedious. Janet Jackson's best selling album is janet., with 14 million worldwide. Madonna has at least 4-5 albums that sold substantially higher than that, in the 20+ million range. Janet's 3 other big sellers (Control, Rhythm Nation and Velvet Rope) sold in the 10-12 million worldwide range. Madonna has had at least another 4-5 albums sell in that range. Janet at her peak was selling as well as Madonna's middle of the road hits.

Both Erotica (the album) and Sex (the book) are cold, dark and definitely represent a lonely time in Madonna's life. But Erotica is a strong album, and holds up.

I think Sex can best be described as an underwhelming one-night stand. Once you read it, there was nothing to draw you back.

The Sex book just seemed so oddly sterile and contrived. Like watching a porn where the actors don't seem at all into the sex. It also seemed to be trying so hard to MAKE A STATEMENT when really it was just a vehicle for Madonna to shock/outrage and show off her hot bod.

It wasn't that hot and her muff was gross.

I only remember the Madonna/Courtney Love heated exchange on some red carpet years ago. That shit was funny.

r132, you're tedious in taking the nutjob's bait and encouraging it on more.

Can we all just make an agreement to ignore nutjob's posts?

r136, I thought Madonna handled that well. You can't deal with an addict.

And Kurt Loder regretted it - he lost the one he wanted to interview and ended up trashing in the mud with a psycho mess.

Madonna had really strong career peaks at the beginning of the 90s (actually 89 when Like a Prayer was released until 92 when Sex came out) and the end of the 90s (98-99, the Ray of Light era)

She was still a very much a successful multiplatinum recording artist with lots of hit singles and a huge sellout tour in the mid 90s (92-96), but she was nowhere near her peak.

So there was definitely backlash from Sex but her non peak "blip" (LOL) years were still bigger and more successful than most popular artists peak years

R138 - yes now I see. That was really awkward. I think Loder thought he was going to capture interview gold....close but no cigar.

Both Cher and Janet are just great in their own unique ways, but are laughable to compare to the sales, industry power and overall success that Madonna enjoyed during her many decades of ruling the world. We are talking apples and oranges here.

At least Madonna was smart enough to leave her "I'm a sex kitten" stage quickly.

Mariah, Janet Jackson, and Christine Aguilera are stuck in that and have gotten so fucking boring.

....

Go crawl back up Madonna's ass, R129. The woman is now and has always been intimidated by other successful women in the biz, and it is well documented, from her cattiness in TOD when her dancer mentioned she reminded him of Janet in Rhythm Nation, to the shit she said about Mariah in the '90s that caused Mariah to say something along the lines of "I used to like Madonna, when she was popular," up to her constant shittalking about Gaga. Insecurity is part of her drive. Some would say it's a bit sociopathic, but that's a topic for another day. Suffice it to say that Madonna's bitchiness and cattiness is legendary.

[quote]She also never feuded with Janet. Janet said negative things about Madonna in 1994 so she did the first shot,

Ha! If you believe that then I've got a few wooden nickels to pawn off on you. Madonna talked shit about Janet to Michael way back in the '80s, which is part of the reason Michael didn't care much for her there for a while. Both women know and knew many of the same people in the industry. One of Madonna's TOD dancers did an interview about how she and some of the other dancers were being catty backstage at the 1990 MTV Awards while Janet was performing the opening of the show.

TOD dancer Slam says in this article that he didn't really want to audition for Madonna at first because he was more into Janet...

[quote]Madonna hasn't said anything remotely negative about another entertainer in YEARS

Lol! Girl, you're deluded.

Here she is being especially distasteful. This was probably an after effect at how badly American Life was being received at the time...

Yes it stalled her career. Now, people were already getting tired of her and newer much more talented performers had come along anyway but the sex book made her fall faster.

It was simply another attention-whoring stunt. It wasn't even original as many photos were ripped off from an old French sex book from the early 1900s.

Janet and Madonna were pretty much doing the same thing at their peaks, both releasing iconic videos, setting standards for the theatricality in their live shows and ruling the pop charts with catchy pop tunes that ruled the airwaves. The difference is that Madonna is white and Janet is black. Madonna can get away with doing unsavory, at times appalling things and not have it effect her career, whereas Janet cannot. As a Jackson and a black woman, she will forever be scrutinized for every single thing she does. That is the reason a person like Britney Spears--a woman who basically stole every look, dance move, video concept and vocal tick since she debuted from Janet's playbook, gets publicly compared to Madonna more than she does Janet. Black women as a whole are highly disrespected in the industry. The lack of highly eligible black women in the RNRHOF is only part of the proof.

^^Good points.

Janet also had much less output than Madonna during the height of both of heir success, and many of her albums remained uncertified.

Janet's military outfit is her only iconic look. Madonna has many

just a few....

I wonder how Madonna felt about her son David doing this routine to Janet's Rhythm Nation 😂

[quote]Mariah, Janet Jackson, and Christine Aguilera are stuck in that and have gotten so fucking boring.

No. Janet Jackson's last album Unbreakable, declared her best since 1997's critical darling The Velvet Rope, was deep with introspection and had nary a sex song on it.

If anything, it's Madonna who takes every turn to hold on to the crassness by showing her tits and ass on social media and in public, unwarrantingly tonguing rappers on stage, dressing like someone half her age and putting out lyrically weak, vapid songs like "Bitch, I'm Madonna".

[quote]At least Madonna was smart enough to leave her "I'm a sex kitten" stage quickly.

Um, excuse me?

Best review line: "No Sex, Please, We're Posing"

GREAT TITS.

The woman has steel balls to do a project like that at that time. Very ballsy woman, love her for it.

R158, I 100% agree with you. She has always been ballsy and always pushed the limits of societal norms. The Sex Book was a plus in my book. She pushed that persona as far as it could go back in those days and then later reinvented herself yet again. The woman is genius. Let's face it, she was never the greatest voice in the industry, but she used her looks, style, barrier-breaking drive, determination, and in a sense - her "rule the world" attitude to easily put her in the running for being the greatest living performer of all time. I love Janet, Whitney and many of the others mentioned on this thread. Not every DL discussion has to be about her verses her or him verses him. That is idiotic; we should appreciate what each of these icons brought to the table. I love many performers for different reasons. Janet is lovely and made some great music over the years - she had her own iconic sense of style (yet she failed to be the chamelian that Madonna so effortlessly manifested). Whitney sung like an angel and none of these other successful women could or can hold a candle to her angelic voice that perhaps has yet to be rivaled to this day. I have no doubt that Madonna is/was a difficult bitch in the flesh (yes, far more so than some of these others) - but she changed the face of popular music in a way that they did not. She has so many hit songs, groundbreaking looks, and fascinating reincarnations - she was prolific like none other and was almost always a survivor. Her body of work speaks for itself and the HUGE number of hits alone eclipse the other artists easily. I will be surprised if any female solo artist ever comes close to touching Madonna's impact on the music industry and on popular culture as whole. She essentially defined entire decades. I do not think that any of her female competitors can really claim that honor. Whitney was far and away my favorite voice (and certainly the most rewarded of this bunch), but she really was never any competition for Madonna in terms of impact on the medium. I have yet to see anyone come close.

Repulsive woman

[quote]chamelian

It's chameleon, Madbot.

[quote]Janet is lovely and made some great music over the years - she had her own iconic sense of style (yet she failed to be the chamelian that Madonna so effortlessly manifested)

I think not...

Intergalactic Japanimation wild child

Futuristic dominatrix

Firey red, pierced and contemplative

Jet black leader of the Rhytjm Nation

Sexy and honey-blonde

Girl from the hood in braids

Blue-eyed mermaid

Channeling Dorothy Dandrige

'70s lounge singer cool

Queen of the Sahara

Futuristic Asian and Indian influences

Bohemian Earth Mother

Freaky dominatrix chic

1940s glamour

Totally '80s

Colorful tomboy

Retro zoot suit

Luxuriously glamorous

Street urchin

Wigged and boobaliciois

Militant

Well, thank you Janbot for the grammar lesson. I am not writing a thesis nor a stockholder's report - this is a social chat forum. As per usual, nothing negative was stated about your diety, yet you lash out with a crazed abandon. The key difference is that Madonna was a always both a huge hit and a fashion trendsetter with each new look. She ruled the charts. Ms. Jackson has always been hit and miss - despite her obvious beauty. It really is a fucking easy equation - global sales numbers for both artists are all over the internet and easily to verify. Oh, and you can post a 200 lb. pick of the recent unrecognizable post-pregnancy Janet if you want to show off one of her new "looks". Game, set, match.

a always = always. Happy?

Carefree and girlie

Rocker chick

R185 - and yes, that is perhaps my favorite Janet look. She was stunning.

Mannish style

Young, dapper and cute

Gypsy

Whimsical

Tough

Business woman

[quote]Oh, and you can post a 200 lb. pick of the recent unrecognizable post-pregnancy Janet

200 pounds? Oh, honey, she's anything but...

And you really want to open that bag of worms?

[quote]The key difference is that Madonna was a always both a huge hit and a fashion trendsetter with each new look

Yeah, this was in all the clubs...

Very svelte...

[quote]And you really want to open that bag of worms?

You posted a photo from 2007. This is 2017. August 2017 to be exact, and Janet Jackson is no longer 200 lbs.

Janet 2017.. I didn't realize that she had weight issues for 10 years. My apologies.

[post redacted because linking to dailymail.co.uk clearly indicates that the poster is either a troll or an idiot (probably both, honestly.) Our advice is that you just ignore this poster but whatever you do, don't click on any link to this putrid rag.]

Now...

This is a stupid argument. I already claimed to be a Janet fan. Waste of time. She is an icon - hands down. I love her. Are we finished arguing over nothing? Madonna is a far bigger selling artist. That is the take away.

[quote]Janet 2017.. I didn't realize that she had weight issues for 10 years. My apologies.

Again, you've failed. You've seen the few pics I just posted of her taken just the other day. She's lost a considerable amount of weight since earlier in the year. But you do you.

R203, I'm just glad you've learned the meaning of the word chameleon, and I've been more than happy to demonstrate for you that it does not only apply to Madonna.

^That was meant for R202

Enough about the fat Janet....album sales??? Concert revenue? Any month in 2017 is RECENT by any account so there was no fail in what I said. Madonna is a much bigger selling celebrity - love her, hate her, curse her name and stick a pin in her voodoo doll. Cased closed. Please head back to your creepy altar to Ms. Jackson and pray. Only if you're nasty that is..

Whenever I hear about this book, I think of this

Why is Janet's baby white? Did she take a page from her brother's playbook and use a white person's donor egg?

[quote]there was no fail in what I said.

You said she was currently fat. You failed.

[quote]Janet's military outfit is her only iconic look.

No. Her look in the Love Will Never Do (Without You) video was also iconic, as were her Pleasure Principle video look, her big-haired/key loop earring Control-era look, the long braids she wore in Poetic Justice that many black women subsequently sported...

re·cent ˈrēs(ə)nt/Submit adjective 1. having happened, begun, or been done not long ago or not long before; belonging to a past period of time comparatively close to the present.

Learn to consult a dictionary or use Google. It is the year 2017 and yes, a few months ago in the year 2017 is in fact RECENT.

"Her look in the Love Will Never Do (Without You) video was also iconic" - absolutely the truth. She was gorgeous and Herb Ritts captured her in a way that certainly did lead to girls trying to emulate her look everywhere. You enjoy squabbling with me over petty things, but I happen to love Janet and that to me was her pinnacle. She looked and sounded stunning. Love her.

You Janet Jackson fans really need to get a life and maybe just start Janet threads. No one even brought up Janet.

It's one person, R213.

R208 she problems used Macaulay Culkin's cum just like her brother did. Only this time around he's legal.

I used to like Janet until this thread. I guess there must be a 24 hour library/homeless shelter.

And she looks like a SOW. Stick an apple in her mouth and send her to Hawaii for a Luau.

The book is gross. We didn't need to hear about Vadge sticking her finger in her pussy and tasting it.

Still not as gross as the Janet loon, though.

Happy Birthday Madonna!!

What was the bigger career killer?

The Sex book?

Or

The Wardrobe Malfunction??

Thread closed.

Madonna is 59 today.

I recall a shot of Vanilla Ice's butt or at least some crack. Not as much as we were all expecting though. He was in his prime too.

[quote]What was the bigger career killer? The Sex book? Or. The Wardrobe Malfunction?? Thread closed.

That's because Madonna is a white woman and get get away with just about anything. Had it been Usher ripping Madonna's top off, his career would have been effectively kaput.

The Sex book did not kill Madonna's career. Take a Bow was a long-running #1 hit; Bedtime Stories was nominated for a Grammy, Evita won her a Golden Globe; Ray of Light was a smash, winning Grammy Awards and critical acclaim and worldwide sales; Music was another smash. Confessions reaffirmed her status as a worldwide pop star. And her tours have continued to break records.

Sex was wrapped up in Mylar and sold from behind the counter; the Wardrobe Malfunction was seen on a major network during a celebrated American event. And then on YouTube, click after click.

Anywaaaaaayz (rolling eyes at the unnecessary Janet bombs in the thread) ... Madonna really hasn't had a new look in over a couple of decades. She insists on holding on to that long ratty greasy hair look ... methinks alot of women end up doing that because they think it makes them look young. But it is dating her looks and holding her back. She needs to get adventuresome again.

r224 her hairstyle has been that ratty blond for over ten years. American Life with the dark hair and Confessions with the reddish hair were the last real changes, looks-wise.

Hey at least she wasn't faking pregnancies at 50 to get out of a failed tour. Madonna is a known cultural icon around the world, Janet is a failure in the music world with loser albums and tours. She's a liar and has the basic Jackson excuse book. Her brother was a child molesting drug addict. She is a forgotten overweight has been.

I do think the Sex book, along with the dreadful Basic-Instinct-rip-off Body of Evidence, plus the videos for Erotica, did somewhat stall Madonna's sales in the US. I always was a big fan of hers, but I remember at the time thinking even I was over the whole sex thing. The country was actually becoming more conservative at that point. Erotica came out in 1992, only two years away from the 1994 Republican Revolution. I've even read that privately, Madonna admitted that for the first time, she misjudged the public with her triple sex-themed assault of album, book, and movie.

Up to Erotica, Madonna's albums were selling over 5 million copies or more (excluding soundtrack albums). Erotica sold just under 2 million copies, which at the time was hardly anything to sniff at, but for Madonna it was a decrease in sales. It was also the first time since her debut album that one of her albums did not produce a #1 single. She bounced back well enough with one-off #1 hits like This Used To Be My Playground. For albums, Bedtime Stories improved her sales over Erotica. The soundtrack to Evita even sold more than Erotica. Then her comeback with Ray of Light (more than 4 million sold) put her back to A list, and Music as a follow-up did very well (over 3 million sold). Since then, her music hasn't been that good IMO.

I think it was the combination of book, film and movie. It was just too much at once and the point of it all got really muddled. If it was to shock!, well it got pretty old really quick. If it was to titillate!, well none of it was all that sexy, really. If it was to bring some edgy counterculture porn to the mainstream, well it was overall kind of lame. And so on.

The problem with Madonna's Sex book was that it didn't feel genuine and people were finally fed up with her shtick of using sex as making her creative output controversial. The whole wanna-be Helmut Newton and Robert Mapplethorpe style of the pictures made the whole thing unsexy. Even the sordid fetish stuff was just looking like silly dress-up instead of something naughty. It didn't feel genuine and it was almost like she was mocking her own fans for being such lowlives that they consider her the harbinger of pushing envelopes.

People loved bratty Madonna who defied sexual taboos but, after a while, hated Madonna, the one trick pony.

All that PLUS the gold teeth too. Ugh. Big fan but glad she got back on track (though "Bedtime Stories" is my least favorite of her CDs, it did her a lot of good).

Well, she's back off track as far as the teeth go.

The Justify My Love video is probably why she thought the Sex book would be this huge controversy but she would still escape unscathed. But JML was four minutes. It was steamy, sexy and pushed the envelope but it was beautifully shot and Madonna looked great.

Sex was too crude, dark, Madonna was shot unflatteringly and she had already done the sex-and-S&M-and-bondage-and-bisexuality thing with JML.

Erotica (the song), while good, was just a retread of JML with a faster beat. I don't think I've heard it on the radio since 1992.

[quote]She needs to get adventuresome again.

Shut up, Madbot. Adventuresome? Lol. At her age, I think sticking her unwanted tongue down Drake's throat onstage and using the N word on social media are about the best she can muster, and it's more than enough. In a day and age where Janet took the introspective road with her last album, did no promo and still debuted at #1, someone as old as Madonna warbling stupidity like "Bitch, I'm Madonna" while wearing fronts and a wardrobe most millenials would be embarrassed to wear and debuting at #2 after a week of strong promo, should realize that she's as done as a potato that's been in a hot oven for over an hour. She should realize that the days where she could engage the masses with acts that were once considered shocking, but now only draw head scratching confusion coming from a woman pushing 60, are over. The Prince tribute debacle, her flop down the stairs at the Brit Awards 😂 and the fact that she was banned from the BBC and can't get a song on the Hot 100 to save her life are just further signs. And you can caterwaul 'til post 600 about how big a concert draw she is, yadda yadda yadda, but the hurtful truth of it is obvious, and it doesn't matter how many elated queens show up at her concerts clutching their Like A Virgin LPs or what-have-you---MADONNA IS OVAH.

[quote]Madonna is a known cultural icon around the world,

Uh...and so is Janet...

Arriving in Japan

Young Japanese fans

UK premiere

Birthday tribute from Russia

Dutch JanFans

Arriving in Sydney

Hong Kong

Kevin Costner hated Madonna but had the hots for Janet, as is SO obvious in this video

I wish Janbot could be permanently banned.

The Sex book began her descent. It was pretentious snooty trash, and the pretentiousness did her in.

Madonna's image had always been a fun, trashy, working class girl playing dress up. She was open, accepting, and silly. A fun girl. Hut that working class aspect too her was essential. The Sex book was so ridiculously snooty, with its artsy pretensions, and people lost interest. In her constant reinvention prior to that, there was a core of working class authenticity. She was a girl fantasizing, daydreaming herself into movie star personas and such. But with Sex, Madonna turned into a fake, a girl trying to pretend she'd never been who she was before. And it bombed.

It didn't help that she later went on to pretend she was British, hanging around Gwinnie, and generally being a bore. People missed the silly, fun Madonna, who's never really come back. She became, basically, gentrified, and lost her appeal.

"But that working class aspect to her was essential."

Forgive my bad typing. :)

r233, once the name "Janet" is mentioned in a post, I stop reading. So I couldn't read the rest of your, I am sure, well-intentioned and well-thought-out missive. Sorry.

I did look at the picture you linked to, though (while I was scrolling down over your post) and I don't get the significance? That pic implies JJ was ready to bring it on a couple of years back? I don't remember that happening ...?

Perhaps one day she will get around to it ...?

I wonder how much the unsealed book will be worth when the old broad finally croaks.

[quote]The Justify My Love video is probably why she thought the Sex book would be this huge controversy but she would still escape unscathed. But JML was four minutes. It was steamy, sexy and pushed the envelope but it was beautifully shot and Madonna looked great.

It was also the first "Video Single" Just the video on VHS and she sold a shit load because MTV wouldn't show the uncut version. Ahead of her time once again.

R248, the video for the song, the song itself AND the Immaculate Collection were so huge from 1990-1991. It was arguably as big of a peak for her as 1985-1987 was.

Further proof that people were sick of her after the Sex book, after the single Erotica peaked at #3 in the US, she released Deeper and Deeper, which IMO was one of the best songs on the Erotica album. It only went to #7 in the US. Then she later released Rain, another of the best songs on the album, and it only went to #14 in the US. If she hadn't saturated the market with the Sex book, Body of Evidence, and the whole Erotica S&M image, those singles might have done better. Released a couple years earlier, both would have been Top 5 hits.

Funny that Rain only went to #14, I remember that song being played constantly on the radio. Madonna has said that Rain was her "tribute" to Karen Carpenter.

R251, according to wikipedia, the song only peaked at number 31 on the hot 100 singles sales chart. Further proof she was overexposed at the time

According to this link, Rain went to #14 on the Billboard Hot 100.

Bad Girl was a curious choice as a single. Not a love song, but a pop ballad about loneliness and self-destruction. Not exactly a recipe for a radio hit. Great song and video but it was a bit of a downer and as the third single, it was released in the post-Sex backlash and Body of Evidence had just flopped in cinemas.

Rain might have been better as the third single.

I loved the video remix of Fever. It wasn't available on the Erotica album, only on the import CD of Rain.

R253, don't forget that the#14 is based on both airplay and singles sales combined. Just based on singles sales, it only hit number 31. That shows how overexposed she was to the average American.

Ah, R255, I missed that you wrote SALES chart. I see your point, and I agree it supports what you wrote.

I thought this book was going to be another good Taschen-type book when Herb Ritts was attached to it, and I was looking forward to seeing how it would turn out.. His style was to always make people look iconic and their absolute best.

Steven Meisel's photos and style are much grittier and darker, and he included a lot of unflattering images.

Well, I would separate the Sex Book from Body of Evidence. When I was a young middle school kid - the book was titillating to anyone who could get their hands on it and EVERYONE who could not. Their was certainly an air of mystery, filth and intrigue that was going on for her during that moment in time. JML was a much better filmed video than Erotica but we all loved both. As a song, I prefer the latter. And the book had all of us talking - everyone of all age groups. Most of it fell flat, but her stunning naked body hitch hiking in Hollywood and Joey Stefano dog collared and leashed are images that I love and will never forget. Grunge was becoming the driving force of the mainstream music scene right about then and Madonna managed to stay incredibly relevant amid my age group due to her controversial ways. She would have possibly dropped off the scene then like most of her pop rivals otherwise. So, that was the book...

Body of Evidence was a pathetic, poorly acted, poorly executed plagiarism of Basic Instinct - which was at the time both groundbreaking and actually considered really sexy. Comparisons to Sharon Stone were inevitable and to say that Madonna paled in comparison is such an understatement that I could not have been more horrified for her. She came off as such the pathetic copycat that you cringed nonstop if you could even make it through that shit pile of a movie. Perhaps it goes down as one of her few and really most damaging misses in my book..

As for Janbot, I hate to block but he is driving me to justifiable homicide. How much more can we take of this nut?

[quote]As for Janbot, I hate to block but he is driving me to justifiable homicide.

When someone spouts inanities and highly unfounded bullshit, they need to be swiftly rectified. I'm only too happy to do it. Why don't you turn those homicidal tendencies into suicidal ones and leap off he nearest cliff, bridge or building--whatever's handier?

Janbot is just excited about Janet's upcoming State of My Career Mall Tour.

LOL R246, your casual and blase attempt at shade--while fairly noble--just kind of fell flat. And I don't believe for a second that you didn't read anything in my post. Your butthurtedness shines like a light. Sorry.

No love for Janet Gaynor, R246?

....

Remember Madge's embarrassing attempt at Rhythm Nation-esque choreography?

[quote]I wish Janbot could be permanently banned.

Lol why, because I handily proved wrong the moron upthread who deemed Madonna a world renown icon but Janet not one? 😂

Sorry Janbot - blocked. I wish you the best in life. XOXO.....not really...

R265 no one ever mentions Janet Jackson except in Madonna threads

Hopefully we can all get back to discussing the actual thread topic. What a relief.

^^LMAO!!

[quote][R265] no one ever mentions Janet Jackson except in Madonna threads

You'd be in for a world of hurt if you ever did a DL search on Janet. IJS.

R267, I totally get that. Janbot is just nuttier than a fruitcake and I think that I at least need a break from his crazy. I still appreciate Janet, but damn if he doesn't push you into rethinking one's admiration.

^^You get nothing. Janet has plenty of threads here on DL, and they have absolutely nothing to do with Madonna. And, if someone's fan can make you rethink your like for them, you have issues.

Janbot is clearly black and white - no pun intended. You can say negative opinions about Madonna and he ignores them and yet you can simultaneously praise Janet and he ignores those comments as well. One whiff of Madonna clearly being the obvious best seller and the much larger cultural icon (which had nothing to do with any of us on this thread whatsoever - the world voted and bought) is just the well-documented FACT that can be proven soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo easily - and his panties are all in a wad. I dislike Britney, but she was a force to be reckoned with and is iconic as well. I really can't stand Taylor, but no one can deny her sales and popularity. Please leave your delusional state and re-enter the real world - see a doctor and take the appropriate meds. Some artists are more iconic and better selling than others. Love it or hate it, but get over it. Buy music that you like, and patron concerts performed by the ones that you adore. Easy. You are at least 13 years old I assume? A well adjusted adult does not act like a psychopath. I wish you the best Janbot. Now please behave or return to your JJ threads and leave us alone.

[quote]Steven Meisel's photos and style are much grittier and darker, and he included a lot of unflattering images.

But that was her creative decision as well, right? I mean look at "In Bed With Madonna" where she comes off as bad and ugly at times as well. Or did the guys who directed the projects shade her by putting those unflattering bits in?

Now look at tour numbers or those same albums R263

[quote]You can say negative opinions about Madonna and he ignores them and yet you can simultaneously praise Janet and he ignores those comments as well.

Lol, you just rendered your whole argument null and void.

r274 I think if she had chosen Ritts, he would not have been on board for the darker pics. Ritts would have brought a lighter tone, something M was not interested in at the time.

Curiously, even in Evita and Swept Away (directed by her ex), she is shot in a very unflatteringly light. She looks leathery in Swept Away.

Ritts would have hit it out of the park. He loved nudity but always made beautiful naked flesh into an art form. I agree with R277, she wanted something more filthy but unfortunately most of the photos fell flat. I still love this one:

I liked that shot too. A whole book of her and various other stars in such situations would've been cool. But most of the sex in that book looked ugly as hell.

[quote]don't forget that the#14 is based on both airplay and singles sales combined. Just based on singles sales, it only hit number 31. That shows how overexposed she was to the average American.

Because most people bought the album. Why would I buy a single if I own it already? And EVERYBODY shared their CD's. I have Janet Jackson Greatest Hits in my digital collection. I have never bought a Janet Jackson song.

But most people didn't buy the album, R280. And by your rationale, big-selling albums are less likely to have successful singles sales, and that's not true at all.

That hitchhiking photo is great, because it's fun and a little kitschy and seemed spontaneous. So much of the book is stiff and awkward posing. I hate the whole series with the skinhead lesbians because it just looks so fake. Same with the Naomi Campbell and Big Daddy Kane photos.

Before the Sex book, Meisel shot Madonna in a pictorial in Rolling Stone where she portrayed a 20s lesbian and cross-dresser. It was far more titillating than anything in the book even though it was far less explicit, because the whole thing had a feel of spontaneously uncovering a secret underground world. If the Sex book had been more along that vein, it would have been way more interesting.

[quote]But most people didn't buy the album, [R280]. And by your rationale, big-selling albums are less likely to have successful singles sales, and that's not true at all.

It was the beginning of the digital age. The entire CD album could be copied in two minutes perfectly. You could borrow your friends Vinyl album but you had to buy it to own it. It was a new age, Dude. Now people download an entire album with a couple of clicks off YouTube. Five million people can have the album with two million actually buying it.

R283, I'm not buying your argument. There are loads of albums from that time period that sold a ton of copies and were popular--Erotica is not one of those albums. Are you sure you were even around in the early 90s? People didn't really start downloading music until Napster came along which was in the late 90s.

People would make copies of commercial cassettes, that was very common back then. You put scotch tape over the two holes on the top of the tape, then put it in a double-tape stereo with a blank tape in the other compartment.

Whoops, sorry. The scotch tape thing was how you copied commercial VHS tapes onto a blank VHS, not cassettes.

In the mid 90s you could copy and burn music CDs (albums and singles). I believe Nero (Burning Rom) was one of the first mainstream CD burning softwares where you could create your own "mixtape" on CD (rom) format. Before that you simply recorded CDs on blank cassette tapes and shared those with friends.

R283, just reread your comment. My mistake, I thought you were saying people were downloading albums in the early 90s. Regardless, you are still wrong. It was just not a popular album. At all. Consider that the Immaculate Collection, released in the 90s, went 6x platinum during its first year and sold 4 million more after that. Many people WERE NOT buying Erotica.

And? Abba Gold (Best Of) sold more albums than the regular albums of Abba. It doesn't make the regular Abba albums commercial failures.

Greatest Hits albums always sold more copies.

r290. Exactly. The Immaculate Collection is a Best of after all.

Erotica was nothing short of a commercial failure. How could it not be? It only sold 5 million globally. Compared to all her studio albums before, it bombed. Like a Virgin sold 20 million, True Blue sold 23 million, Like a Prayer sold about 14 million and Erotica sold 5 million. One of these albums sold a LOT less than the others.

And if you still aren't convinced--Bedtime Stories sold about the same, Ray of Light sold 16 million and Music sold 16 million. Clearly, Bedtime Stories and Erotica were the lowpoint of her career up until American Life (and now).

And Janet would have chopped her tits off to have a high as good as Madonna's low, R293. At this point Janet's career is not much further along than a pig in a pig race at a state fair.

Have it in a box somewhere. Her body was at its peak. Nice tits. The photos all looked so forced. Wasn't sexy at all. Could I make that $95 back on eBay (adjusted for inflation)?

I agree, people were intensely turned off by Madonna at that time. It didn't help that the musical concept of Erotica itself was pretty half-baked, not up to her previous standard. Also, her look was among her harshest with the thin eyebrows, the gold teeth and Baby Jane makeup. Not really sexy at all... She'd peaked as a sex bomb right before this time, around the Dick Tracy era, by the time of the Girlie Shows she was showing signs of age catching up with her...

I couldn't see Herb Ritts putting his name on a book with images like the one where she's squatting over a bowl, or with a dog between her legs, and the full page shot of Madonna leaning over and the little fat she had on her stomach all in rolls.

R283, you're still not making sense. Ray of Light came out further into the digital age, sold 2 or 3 times as much as Erotica, and yet both "Frozen" and the single "Ray of Light" sold better than any single from Erotica.

The Bodyguard soundtrack came out about the same time as Erotica. It was huge, a total phenomenon, one of if not the biggest selling albums of the year worldwide. If ever there was a case to be made of "people bought the album, not the single" it would be that one. But "I Will Always Love You" was also one of if not the biggest selling singles of the year, also worldwide.

The Bodyguard soundtrack was bought by a lot of fraus, middle-aged and otherwise. Not exactly the kinds of people who would've bought Erotica as well.

I remember when Janet dragged Madonna with her comment about EROTICA'S sales...

"...They shipped it, but it got shipped back."

[quote]The Bodyguard soundtrack was bought by a lot of fraus, middle-aged and otherwise. Not exactly the kinds of people who would've bought Erotica as well.

You're making excuses. TB soundtrack was the biggest thing in music that year.

[quote]And Janet would have chopped her tits off to have a high as good as Madonna's low

Janet Jackson was being courted by the biggest moguls in music at the time, signing landmark record deals, selling out shows all over the world, putting out consecutive #1 albums and making history on the charts with her own hits, winning Grammys, being nominated for an Oscar and coming off a #1 US box office film in which she was the star. I think it's safe to say that in 1993, Madonna was the last thing on her mind.

Bad news Janbot - I got an email from Groupon this morning advertising Janet tickets for $22, yikes!

Because it was frau catnip, r301. They weren't buying Nirvana's Nevermind or Pearl Jam's Ten either.

R300, it must have really really irked Madonna that while Erotica sold 2 million, Janet. sold 3x as much and went 6 times platinum and spawned 2 number one hits. What's funny is that Janet. is an even more sexual record than Erotica.

A woman releases a sex book and she's allowed to adopt four children from Africa - or maybe buy children is the best description.

We live in a crazy world.

She's getting fat. Look at those batwing arms...

Janet "Bubbled in Jackson Wonderland" Jackson: My brother Michael is a great guy!

Her opinion on anything after that means nothing and carries absolutely no weight in any debate.

Sorry JJ - you are just as brainwashed as you claim your sister is.

Yeah, Madonna definitely had a rivalry with Janet, did not like her, and was envious of her. Rhythm Nation came out the same year as Like a Prayer and bested it in US sales by over 3 million sold. Then janet. came out the year after Erotica and trounced it in sales by over 5 million sold in the US. Madonna did not like competition. At the time, Janet's stuff was selling more and was more popular. I think that irked Madonna like no other. And Janet did it all with a sexy yet sort of nice girl persona, the opposite of the trashy ho-bag image Madonna was selling circa Erotica.

But we got to see Madonna eating out Tony Ward's asshole!

And sucking on Tony's delicious big toe!

R309, but to be fair, Like a Prayer completely outsold Rhythm Nation globally. Madonna has almost always been much more popular than Janet globally, except from 1992-1995.

Why the fuck does this Janet whack job have to insert her into every fucking thread we have about a female pop singer? JFC, die in a grease fire! The topic of this thread is Madonna. Nobody I knew really cared that much about Janet back then, and certainly not now.

Sexy is as sexy does ...

R314, I'm still surprised that she thought that image was sexy. She may as well taken a picture of herself throwing up in a trash can. I agree with many of the posters above--Herb Ritts would have been a much better choice (although she was going for the darker vibe). And additionally, I think many of the remix versions of the songs on Erotica are better than the songs themselves. Had she released those and shortened them, the album may have been a bigger hit.

I liked most of Erotica, but her cover of Peggy Lee's Fever was fucking atrocious.

R316, the video remix was way better than the single.

R309 " And Janet did it all with a sexy yet sort of nice girl persona, the opposite of the trashy ho-bag image Madonna was selling circa Erotica."

Till she decided it was a good idea to expose her saggy tit at the super bowl, a family event. Such a genius career move that was!

[quote][R300], it must have really really irked Madonna that while Erotica sold 2 million, Janet. sold 3x as much and went 6 times platinum and spawned 2 number one hits. What's funny is that Janet. is an even more sexual record than Erotica.

Right. Some critics even praised the janet. album as the warmer, sexier version of the two albums and that Janet's album was everything Erotica tried to be.

The Velvet Rope is more in line with Erotica than janet., in my opinion. They are two of my favourite albums of the '90s. Rare occasions where two massive pop stars truly reveal themselves. Madonna and Janet put a lot of themselves into those records.

"Throb" on janet. is like a faster, more upbeat version of "Erotica" but that's really one of the few similarities they share.

I ❤️ R309

Throb by Janet is sexier than anything on Erotica

boom boom boom until noon noon noon

The janet. album b-side "'70s Love Groove" is scorching hot. It was later released on the soundtrack to the film Pret A Porter...

[quote]Nobody I knew really cared that much about Janet back then, and certainly not now.

That's because you hung around (and still do) a bunch of racist ninnies who refused to bring their heads out of Madonnaland and realize that she was not the only pop diva burning up the pop charts.

[quote]Why the fuck does this Janet fan

There are several of us in here, dear.

[quote]Yeah, Madonna definitely had a rivalry with Janet, did not like her, and was envious of her. Rhythm Nation came out the same year as Like a Prayer and bested it in US sales by over 3 million sold.

To add, RN 1814 was the biggest selling album in the US in 1990, her tour was the biggest US concert box office draw that year for a female (Janet was the only woman in the top 10), the album set numerous records including being the only album in history to garner 7 top 5 hits and three #1s in three separate calendar years, and won a shitload of Billboard awards. That the social ills she sang about on the album are more prevalent today than when the album was released only adds to its greatness...

Of course I remember Janet being popular, but nowhere near the cultural event that Madonna was. I barely remember Janet's 1993 album, can't even remember the title. Erotica is still very fresh in my memory, and all the controversy around it and the Sex book at the time.

Your taste is for shit, R328. The janet. album was EVERYWHERE that year. It was inescapable. "That's the Way Love Goes", "If" and "Again" were all smashes. Hell, even her Rolling Stone cover that year was iconic. In fact, I'd be willing to bet that it's the single most iconic image of a female pop star EVER.

I don't remember that album being HUGE like Madonna's was, r329. I don't know, maybe it was a regional thing.

^Where did you live, Backwoods Bumfuck, USA?

Fever was a part of Sandra Bernhard's live performance for years.and I'd always wondered if Madonna tacked it onto Erotica as a fuck-you combo package to Sandra along with stealing her sycophant girlfriend Ingrid Casares.

Madonna clearly got her ballsy broad schtick from Sandra Bernhard. If you watch Madonna's interviews from that time period, she was clearly biting Sandra's comedic style.

Rhythm Nation was the biggest selling album of 1990 at the time, but I'm sure many albums have sold more from 1990 now--The Immaculate Collection was released in 1990 and went diamond.

[quote]Rhythm Nation was the biggest selling album of 1990 at the time.

You're trying for some reason to tear down and negate Janet's impact in music and pop culture, but it's all for naught. Janet's RN is still a pop culture phenomenon and yes, it was the biggest selling album that year. DEAL WITH IT.

....

....

....

R335, no, I know it was a huge hit. But The Immaculate Collection was bigger. And it was released in 1990. So deal with it.

Look at this list. It's a list of the biggest selling albums of all time, globally. Madonna, Whitney, Mariah and Celine each have at least two albums on here. Guess who isn't listed at all? Yes, that's correct--Janet Jackson.

I don't think it was the Sex book at all. Or even Body of Evidence. Most Madonna fans know better than to see her movies...and what kid or 20-something would want to see that piece of shit?

I remember reading once that even the biggest artists have about a 7 year shelf-life. The true greats (like Madonna) can stretch beyond that...but times change. Tastes change. The music industry changes. Kids want to listen to something new. So part of the reason for her declining popularity was just the way of the world.

But...the big culprit was Erotica itself. I like it (but don't love it). It's not very listener friendly and certainly not mainstream. It is cold and distancing and lacking in singles. There are great things about it. I think it holds up as an album and an artistic statement. And I do like the four released songs -- they're the best on the album. But it needed better singles. If "Justify My Love", "This Used To Be My Playground" and "Secret" had been on Erotica...we'd be having a different conversation.

People only said she was overexposed because the album and the songs weren't Madonna-sized hits. It's all about the music.

[quote]The Immaculate Collection was bigger.

[quote]The Immaculate Collection was bigger

[quote]The Immaculate Collection was bigger

The Immaculate Collection was much bigger than Rhythm Nation. It's the best selling compilation by a solo artist.

[quote]The true greats

Thriller, RN 1814 and Born in the USA remain the only albums in history to garner 7 top 10 hits. All of RN's hits went top 5, though.

LOL, fatty Janet was beaten out by Avril Lavine aka April Lipschitz on that list.

I just received a coupon the the mail. One large KFC bucket includes a ticket to her "tour" at our local mall. Janet's stage will be set up right in front of Sears.

[quote]The Immaculate Collection was much bigger than Rhythm Nation

No, dear. RN OWNED 1990. There's a reason Janet was the highest US box office concert draw for a female that year, won more Billboard awards than any other artist that year, and set STILL-unmatched chart records that year.

R349, didn't Blonde Ambition have way more tour dates outside the US than in it? That's probably the reason why. Not only that, Justify My Love the single went platinum and it's video also did that same (the first of its kind). I like janet, but she was never on the same level of popularity as Madonna, Whitney, Mariah or Celine. As I've said before, the Immaculate Collection sold between 25 to 30 million copies globally and 10 million of that was in the USA--that's more than 4 million more than Rhythm Nation. How much did Rhythm Nation sell globally? Something like 12 million. The only country where Janet has ever really been popular in is the USA.

Why are people baiting the Janbot? Just ignore her posts.

Don't get the one-sided hate here. Madbot is just as annoying as Janbot. The only place either one of these washed up "divas" get played is on the Oldie stations anyway.

r352, the thing is though this is a Madonna thread dedicated to, well, Madonna. The Madbot is more fitting to the topic at hand than the Janbot. That's like complaining about a poster obsessing about the Golden Girls in a Golden Girls thread.

R353, the Madonnaloons invade Janet threads ALL. THE. TIME. Get a clue.

[quote]Don't get the one-sided hate here

Me either!

[quote]Why are people baiting the Janbot? Just ignore her posts.

[quote][R349], didn't Blonde Ambition have way more tour dates outside the US than in it? That's probably the reason why.

No. Janet was electric at time and it was her first world tour. People weren't really as pressed to see Madonna live again at the time in the US.

[quote]The only country where Janet has ever really been popular in is the USA.

See R234 through R241 for proof to the contrary.

Grandmadonna always wanted to be a huge movie star. It's still her biggest insecurity to this day.

[quote]the Madonnaloons invade Janet threads ALL. THE. TIME. Get a clue.

Well, they are wrong. As is your "the other (kids) do it, too!" argument.

Lol, so true R358. She couldn't act her way out of a paper bag. Now Janet, on the other hand, is a very competent actress.

R357, And yet, the Blonde Ambition and the Girlie Show tours made as much money with less than half as many dates. It took Janet 9 months to get Rhythm Nation's box office receipts as high as Blond Ambition's were after 4 months and Girlie Show's after 3 months.

^^Semantics and reaching. You're clearly the type of person who would try and trample any of Janet's accomplishments in favor of Madonna, which is pretty psychopath-ish and reeks of desperation. I don't give a flying fuck about Madonna's receipts for Blond Attention or Girlie Ho--the fact remains that she was nowhere in the US top ten of concert box office draws in 1990. Get over it and move on with your life.

R362, liar.

That she lost her status as the biggest female star and most popular female entertainer to movie star, Julia Roberts in the early 90's had to have driven her deeper into her madness. It's not any wonder she hit that bump in hits til Take A Bow

No, Janet has never been the global force that Madonna, Whitney, Mariah or Celine were. At all. Her best selling album sold something like 14 million. Those aren't bad numbers, they just are not even close to being the numbers that these women sold with their two or three best-selling albums.

Madonna has had 4 or 5 albums sell more that 14 million worldwide. Whitney had 3 if you count the Bodyguard soundtrack. Mariah had 4 or 5 as well. Celine had 2 or 3. And that's only studio albums. For all these women, their highest sellers were in the 20+ or 30+ million range. Janet's had some great moments and some influence, but she's simply not the phenomenon they were.

And yet Mariah seems threatened by La JLo. The triple threat threatens her.

Janbot - no one on this thread or in the history of Datalounge would argue that Janet is a way better actress, I'll give you that for sure.

Mariah is ridiculous, but if it's true that Tommy Motolla was running interference and stealing tracks or whatever from Mariah to give to JLo, well I don't blame her for being pissed about it.

Sorry, forgot to add, I think JLo is the wrong target though. I doubt JLo was all that involved with or knew much about writing or production on any of her albums.

Madonna could be striking in her best moments. But she is not now, before, or should she EVER be an actress. She absolutely doesn't not get acting and the demands of that job. It's not reading lines badly.

Except somehow she excels in "Dangerous Game" and, many would argue, "Desperately Seeking Susan" too.

I've not seen DG. But in DSS, the only movie I've ever bought her in, she was just playing herself. There wasn't acting involved. She was basically directed to just be herself.

R373, she was actually really impressive in Dangerous Game. Somehow, she acts very naturally. If she hadn't insulted the director and the movie publicly, I would suggest she work with him again

Speaking of JLo, Janet's former employee...

Janbot is a psychotic cuntress and a sad sack of wasted flesh.

[quote]No, Janet has never been the global force that Madonna, Whitney, Mariah or Celine were.

It's cute that you're purposely ignoring the videos upthread that speak to the contrary of your little biased opinion but, they're there.

Madonna was fine in DSS, in the same way she was fine in Truth or Dare. Being her charismatic self, but there's really no acting happening.

R377, those videos don't prove anything. I never said she DIDN'T have fans globally. Did you see that list of the biggest selling albums globally? How many times was Janet listed in comparison to Celine, Mariah, Whitney or Madonna? I rest my case.

Janbot the cunt kills another thread.

You're a sad ragged cunt, bitch.

Janbot is so desperate and delusional that he is actually destroying her fan base on this forum. The sad fact is that most of us are or were fans. He is doing her a huge (not her massive cellulite thighs or three chins) a disservice. I think that Janet's competition was actually Whitney and we know who won that war.... Just attempt to sing ANY of her hits Ms. Jackson..

Not the amazing scene where she is penetrated in a movie rehearsal against her character's will but you get the idea. It's not perfect but it's the most relaxed and out of her own head that Madonna has ever been on screen.

George Michael enlisted Jimmy Jam and Terry Lewis to remix his song Monkey due to his love of Janet's CONTROL album, and the result was the superior version heard in his video for the song.

Earlier this year, some unreleased songs were supposed to surface including a track he did with Janet in the early '90s that was to be on an album of duets, but it remains unrelased. He worked with a bevy of stars for that project. I still hope it's released someday.

Whitney..

Janet Jackson is more of an American celebrity, but Madonna is internationally famous. Lots of Americans think that if a person is famous in the US, they're famous all over the world and with many American stars it's not true at all.

Oprah Winfrey and Barbra Streisand, for example, could walk down the street in Tokyo, Buenos Aires or Rome and nobody would know who the fuck they were.

[quote]Oprah Winfrey and Barbra Streisand, for example, could walk down the street in Tokyo, Buenos Aires or Rome and nobody would know who the fuck they were.

Yes but, given those videos upthread showing Janet's worldwide fanbase and the pandemonium she caused at various airports around the world, the same can't be said for her.

Who has even thought of Janet Jackson in at least a dozen years? Talk about beating a dead horse.

Speaking of Janet's dearly departed good friend Whitney, not only was her hit song How Will I Know originally written for Janet, but Nippy herself covered Janet's Control in concert once...

Madonna is the rare celebrity famous in most places. Only the very top of movie stars and recording artists are at that level. Of Millenials probably only Taylor Swift and JLaw are globally famous.

R387 - THANK YOU!!!!!! The answer is about 18 people - including one deranged freak called Janbot.

[quote]Who has even thought of Janet Jackson in at least a dozen years?

These people for starters...

And them...

Janet's been a has-been for quite a few years, nobody's checking for her. I'm sure many Millennials are only vaguely aware of who she is. You're talking about somebody who's career peaked nearly 30 years ago.

Thinkin' about Janet

Madonna is excellent in Dangerous Game. Abel Ferrera had the cast improvise. I think the scene where Madonna's character is telling Harvey Keitel about being raped is Madonna recalling her own experience, or evoking it, at least.

The one film where Madonna excels is the one nobody has seen. Like r374 said, she badmouthed Ferrera. I think Madonna didn't like improvising. Ferrera challenged her in a way she hadn't been challenged before. I think Madonna's problem as an actress is that she too self-conscious. You can see her reciting the lines in her head before she gives her stilted delivery. All of that is absent in DG because she comes across naturally.

Madonna complained that her film character dies in DG, but she also died in Dick Tracy and Body of Evidence. She must have known that the character was going to die. I'm sure there is more to the story re: her and Ferrera, but my bet is that she resented Ferrera being in control and he conjured a natural, powerful performance from her that, for some reason, doesn't like.

She was good in Evita, but she was back to her old tricks in the Next Best Thing where she is filmed in a strange lighting scheme and her acting is poor. Not to mention she had her character change from a teacher to a yoga teacher. It just seemed like a vanity project.

[quote]I think that Janet's competition was actually Whitney

Why, because they're both black women? In terms of their music and stage personas, Janet's competition was more along the lines of Madonna.

[quote]Janet's been a has-been for quite a few years, nobody's checking for her. I'm sure many Millennials are only vaguely aware of who she is. You're talking about somebody who's career peaked nearly 30 years ago.

No honey. Every millennial performer from Gaga to Justin Bieber to Beyonce to Britney and everyone in between has namechecked Janet as a major influence. And Janet's biggest first-week sales were as late as 2001. Not exactly 30 years ago.

R396 - Oh, because she has no vocal ability? Hmmmmmmmm.... Yep.

I ❤️ Whitney singing "Control."

Whitney was a horrible actress also. Janet was not bad. I actually liked her in Poetic Justice. Of all the diva singers mentioned only JLo and Janet can act. Mariah was surprisingly good in Precious but I don't really feel like it was a conscious acting job. Daniels probably got that from her. I think JLo because she came from acting before is the least their persona when they act. That's the problem with Madonna and Whitney. Janet gets it too.

The issue with Madonna and Whitney acting is that they didn't seem to wanna give up being Madonna and Whitney Houston when playing other characters. And you could see it on a huge screen.

Janet really was good in Poetic Justice, particularly in that scene at the beginning when her boyfriend is killed in front of her...

Another great scene...

[quote]Of Millenials probably only Taylor Swift and JLaw are globally famous.

over here in Europe most people know who Taylor Swift is but they hardly know her music....she's more famous for all the guys she supposedly dated and for being awkward

That DG scene was better than I expected, but the constant eye blinking is distracting and bizarre

R389 possibly Bieber too. But that's it.

R404. Her music sucks and totally forgettable. Not surprising.

Above poster wasn't kidding.... Janet's really on Groupon. Who'd have thought that 27 years ago, at 18, remembering and learning the words to every song on RN1814 as we drove with the windows down as the tape blared and cooed on the radio. Who'd have thought she'd be a fat mess with someone else's newborn. And that she'd be bankrupting state fairs. What a disaster. She won't complete this tour either.

Janet's a fat loser

So fabulous

S.E.X.

[quote]Of Millenials probably only Taylor Swift and JLaw are globally famous.

You're obviously not a millennial. Globally, both Rihanna and Ariana Grande are bigger than Taylor Swift.

who would ever want to be a millennial?

R412 thankfully no. But thank you for your contribution. I had never really heard of that Ariana person before that tragic event in Manchester. I highly doubt she's globally more known than JLaw or Taylor Swift tho. And I speak completely neutral. I don't like any of these bitches.

Janbot, Janbot

You're a sad and stinky twat.

You type a lot. That's all ya got.

Janbot, Janbot.

Sometimes I think the Janbot is a troll deliberately putting people off of Janet jackson.

Susan was her best role. Evita her best performance. I don't really see anything about Madonna in DG as a revelation, but she's no better or worse than the movie. Madonna obviously works best with an actors director, with a less visionary style. When she's not playing Madonna or an already established part and has to flesh a character out from scratch; then there's trouble.

[quote]Who'd have thought she'd be a fat mess with someone else's newborn.

You're clearly a smelly, obese hater with no prospects and too much time on your grody hands.

Madonna looks like she would leave smelly trails in her panties...

Isn't she lovely?

Rock hard abs made of stone

Who the fuck is this Janet freak?

Isn't she precious?

Less than 52 years old (and doesn't look a day older than she did over 20 years ago...)

I wouldn't mind seeing them fuck

Like, seriously go at it. Jan would be the submissive with Madge as the top, but then Janet would go all freaky on her and flip it at the last minute. Hot video right here...

Yass!!

r264, she didn't exact excel as an actress in DSS, but there was absolutely no one alive at the moment, or before or since, who could have played that role. It had nothing to do with acting talent. She just carried the energy of the moment, encapsulated something that was happening at the time. She was pop, new wave, New York bohemianism, art-as-personality, MTV, new feminism, classic young rebellion all wrapped up in a swagger. No one truly wrapped everything up into one act ever again.

She was really good in Dangerous Games - it's too bad more people didn't see it.

Other than that, she has been unable to truly be the actress she dreamed of being. She is shockingly stiff in someone else's creation.

I love Madonna and I really can't think of a more iconic living star - in fact, there isn't one. That said, she really was no great actress - in any picture. She literally ruled the music world (and remember that her singing talent does't hold a candle to many vocal abilities who were her competition along the way) for literal decades. Frankly, I thought that Whitney was perhaps a slightly better actress than Madonna (she was quite excellent in Waiting to Exhale), but none of these women were truly great including Janet who fucking grew up acting as a child and therefore I expected a little more from her as an adult (personally, I think that as she developed into a great musician, she steadily became a worse actress and let's face it - was never good to begin with). A musician and and actor are two different artists with two separate and distinct skill sets. This thread is about Madonna and of course all of her female musician competitors have been thrown into the discussion ad nauseam (yes, Janbot were are referring to YOU). However, it is worth commenting that despite her amazing skills at ruling the music world which have been so well documented and proven beyond a shadow of a doubt, she really was never much of an actress. Who cares, stick to what you are great at. I think that no one has been more successful than Madonna when it comes to being one of the biggest forces that that music industry has ever seen as well as being a cultural phenomenon and fashion icon. Her star power is unprecedented.

^Stick it in your ear, Madonnabot.

.....

Janet, still controlling the zeitgeist in 2016--without even trying...

Janbot is so predictable....and pathetic. Boy is it fun to set him off into a fit of lunacy.

Yes, r429, I think she was the last of that calibre. That kind of global star affect can't be done again, what with social media and the dismantling of the veil between star and audience. She cleverly utilized the old Hollywood way of doing things and updated it with the new Hollywood way of doing things, blending it with the music industry and changing the way pop stars were packaged and even regarded. She is the last of the great stars. It won't be done again.

I agree, r434. The level of global celebrity that Madonna achieved can't happen in today's world. We're too fragmented in the way we get our entertainment today - hundreds of different tv channels and radio formats to choose from, and of course the internet and social media. When Madonna rose to fame, everybody watched the same tv stations and listened to the same radio stations. And like you said there was a veil between star and audience back then, so there was a sense of mystery. Today that's all gone.

r435, there are still global sensations, like Taylor Swift, Adele, One Direction, Justin Bieber to name a few.

Beyonce as well.

r436 none of them are as famous or have the cultural impact that Madonna did in her prime.

[quote]none of them are as famous or have the cultural impact that Madonna did in her prime.

r436 nobody on your list comes close to the cultural impact and overall shitstorm of public discourse that Madonna caused in the 80s.

Pop Culture moved on to bigger things. Madonna is Pop Culture history.

Lol R439 and R441, SO true. These queens just can't let go, can they?

Even if it were true that Madonna was the end all-be all of pop stars, which it isn't (Michael Jackson, anyone?), she is so desperate to hang on to fame that she just looks utterly foolish these days, and it sort of dulls any superstar shine she used to have.

This is how I picture R434 and R435...

R443, Madonna and Michael Jackson are probably the two most famous solo pop stars who ever lived. You're right, Michael Jackson was always more famous than Madonna even when he wasn't releasing any music at all.

Madonna looks gorgeous in that photo, R444. When was that?

Madonna, Michael Jackson, Prince... the whole package. Nobody can touch them today.

Ahem...

Okay, Janet had her place too (dull name aside). I do acknowledge that Beyonce qualifies as a superstar too, though I can't tell you a whole lot about her as a celebrity. But I am not her demographic so that's fine.

(Belinda Carlisle was more important to me than most of her bigger peers. Huge fan).

Did you hear? Janet had a big greasy bowel movement today and lost 25 pounds! Go Girl!

I like a lot of Madonna's songs, and agree with others who've written about her phenomenal rise to the top and holding that position for years.

But the most baffling thing about the Sex book is that she released it when she was on top of her game, could do and pay for anything, untouchable.

Usually photos like these are taken when someone is unknown and desperate, like Vanessa Williams, Bettie Page, Joan Crawford.

This seemed like an epic case of self-sabotage. It altered the direction of her career, made her a public punching bag, lost her some longterm fans, and she never really rose to the heights she had prior to the book.

I still can't understand why she would stage contrived photo sessions with her face in a guy's ass, sucking his feet, squatting on a bowl, being handcuffed in closet, tied up with a rope, sitting in a lap of an elderly man. It would be so embarrassing to have everyone you're related to, everyone you've ever met, and every person on earth seeing you like that.

Practically no entertainer in history would continue to make hundreds of millions after a stunt like the Sex book.

R451, great point. I can't think of any other entertainer who would survive after doing all that. Except R Kelly, apparently.

r436/r437, it's a different kind of star power. They have their undeniable fame, but they won't come close to having the kind of affect on cultural zeitgeist. A wall has been taken down. Madonna is trying to go along with the new way of doing things, but it isn't working. She's taken alot of her "mystery" away. She marketed herself as a successor to the old Hollywood star system when most of those veterans were still alive. Now she is the only one standing left of the new star system of the 80s and 90s. And all the newbies after her have never been able to achieve the same kind of complexity she was able to craft.

Like what, r441? Twerking lasted about five minutes. Which one of these so-called new stars will have hundreds of books written about them by cultural observers? Academics were especially obsessed with Madonna. She created a myth and they took over and continued to create it for her. Swift, Bieber, Betonce just don't have that kind of unlimited potentiality to offer to all sectors of the culture.

r451, I agree as well ... I am convinced it was an unconscious rebellion against the myth she was building all those years. She painted herself in a corner. It was like marrying a virulent homophobe. For a woman who built her career on a loyal gay following, marrying Ritchie was a deliberate attempt to challenge her gay image.

[quote]Now she is the only one standing left of the new star system of the 80s and 90s.

Llllloooolllll!

No.

R450, shouldn't Madonna be laying nude underneath that animal as it shits on her for SEX: The Sequel?

I agree r451. Madonna was coming off of the triumphs of "Vogue," a monster hit that was the biggest of her career, and the Blonde Ambition tour which even critics of Madonna had to admit was a brilliant show. She owned the world at that point, was at her peak. Then she goes and does the Sex book. WTF?

Camille Paglia's review of "Sex" from 1992:

She echoes a lot of what has been said in this thread.

[quote]Okay, Janet had her place too (dull name aside).

It's the name she was born with, darling. You can bet your ass that she's the most famous living one, though.

Madonna, Cher, Beyonce, Prince, Shania... and Janet. Who's next? Sue? Judy?

Madonna doing the Sex book was Madonna trying to assert her dominance as a cultural icon. But by showing too much and pushing the envelope too far, she lost the mystery about her.

I think even if she hadn't done the Sex book in 1992, Madonna would have still experienced a career downturn. She had been hugely popular for almost ten years so she was bound to hit a snag anyway.

It's similar to her social media postings. Very juvenile. All those emoticons and exclamation marks. In interviews, she can come across as intelligent and informed, but on social media, she comes off as an airhead. And again, the mystery about her is gone.

One of the first indications that the tide had turned on Madonna publicly was during the MTV Movie Awards that year. Madonna was dressed like Jean Harlow, very old Hollywood, and Steven Tyler said out of nowhere when he was presenting an award that he was masturbating Madonna backstage. She then talked about how if it was his fingers then it wasn't masturbation. It brought her down to earth in a sleazy, sexist way and she stayed there for years, and is still there as far as some people are concerned.

Any actor or musician that takes part in social media can never be like stars of yesteryear. As mentioned before the biggest stars maintain a level of mystery. The JLaws and DiCaprios of the world aren't showing you the portion size of their lunches.

I feel like her sort of sabotaging her career in such a way, near her peak, made her kind of bad ass and more untouchable? It got her so much publicity that the backlash was inevitable, but it kept her name out there. What other 80s solo artists, as big as her, had massive sellers in the 90s/00s like Ray of Light and Confessions? In the grand scheme of things maybe it was a right move?

R465, you have a point--when you put it that way, I think the backlash against Erotica, Body of Evidence and the Sex book made Madonna terrified of public rejection. It was kind of a wake up call for her. After that, she did as much as she could do stay relevant in the public's eye. It's odd, because she keeps doing stupid stuff all the time on instagram, yet doesn't learn her lesson.

The Material Mistress