Sick and tired of whines/complaints about "cultural appropriation"

Would those who whine about cultural appropriation say the same about Jessye Norman or Leontyne Price singing opera? Or Yo-Yo Ma playing the cello? Or the thousands of kids of East Asian origin who learn European classical music?

Or is it "cultural appropriation" only when white people do it?

I'm not white, but I don't get this either.

I understand not wanting to be defined as a sterotype, the anger at blackface costumes... This I don't understand.

What is wrong with liking something about a culture and wanting to incoporate it into your life? As long as it is from actual people from that culture.

Given the way our lives are--where all of us regularly eat food from Maxico, China, and India; where we wear clothes and ride bikes and cars and use electronic devices from all over the world; where we speak a language that borrows words from Greek, Latin, French, german, Spanish, and Arabic--I cannot think how a thinking person can believe culture could be "owned."

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I can't tell if they had surgery, or if it's make-up contouring.

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r5/r6/r8, you are really hijacking this thread.

You are not welcome.

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I didn't appropriate reading.

Well, I think there are some instances where "borrowing" stuff from another culture becomes a problem:

1 - basically a form of copyright or intellectual property exploitation, where a group originates and develops an original work (art, music, dance, etc. whatever), and then someone else comes in and takes it to profit off of it, while the original creators get nothing, not even any credit. You see this with some urban dance styles and music, especially, and later (often white) pop artists will "discover" them.

Sure, no individual owns "culture", but culture is made up of individual works of art that can in fact be owned, and I don't think people get a free pass for profiting off the work of others by saying "well, it was a group and not a person who made this, so I can do with it what I want."

2 - using aspects of a different culture but failing to do any legwork or research into what those aspects actually mean or why they have significance, and ending up being disrespectful in the process. There was a controversy with a Katy Perry video where extras were wearing jewelry that turned out to be Islamic religious symbols, and then the extras were portrayed as being burned in a fire. No one knew what the symbols meant, they probably just thought they were "cool". Or Selena Gomez wearing a Hindu bindi during a performance because she thought it looked "pretty".

Like, it's great that you want to expand borders and bring in different cultural influences and mix things up, but maybe actually do some work in figuring out what you're using actually means. Otherwise it's as foolish as those people who get Chinese tattoos that are actually nonsense words, or as offensive as someone desecrating a Star of David or something because they thought it was just a nice jewelry pattern.

Yup, Gomez has angered some Hindus over her bindi and costume use.

I believe she was actually asked to stop wearing them at some point too.

"or as offensive as someone desecrating a Star of David or something because they thought it was just a nice jewelry pattern."

No one owns the six-pointed star. It's a symbol in many cultures.

This is where the absurdity of the whole "appropriation" argument becomes evident: you just can't claim cultural ownership of a [italic]shape.[/italic] if you do, any time you draw a five-pointed star (or use it in decoration) Wiccans or Satanists can complain; and any time you make an "x" or a "+" shape, Christians can complain (not all Christian crosses have the long vertical bar and the shorter horizontal bar--all cross shapes are claimed by different Christianity branches).

R14, so your argument is that symbols have no meaning and significance because they're just shapes? And we should ignore everything we learn about what those symbols mean because we can reduce them to descriptions of lines and patterns?

And actually, you realize that things become "symbols in many cultures" because they get... appropriated? Sometimes they're spread through conquests, trade, immigration, religious proselytizing, etc. but sometimes groups decide to use a symbol because of its special significance in their own culture or someone else's. Do you think the Nazis came up with the swastika by themselves, without knowing what it meant in ancient civilizations? Or that Wiccans came up with the five-pointed star?

I think you only underline the point - most cultural symbols and works have a history and a meaning behind them, and it can be offensive when someone chooses to use or employ them without knowing (or caring) where they came from. And yeah, sometimes they need to be called out on it.

You think one group only "came up" with the five-pointed star?

yes, that underscores the problem, all right.

[quote]copyright or intellectual property exploitation,

LOL. Bitch, please.

r15 = 23 year old college female college student

R4/5, you can also post pictures of actresses who have gotten lip injections to appropriate the black race, so what's your point?

I agree with R3. Just this weekend I made authentic corn tortillas from scratch (with masa). I'm Italian, not Mexican. Should I not be doing this?

[quote]Just this weekend I made authentic corn tortillas from scratch (with masa). I'm Italian, not Mexican. Should I not be doing this?

You do not know the meaning nor the history the heritage! I am calling you out on this!

Because white are the only GOOD thing.

Yeah you can talk to a repetitive drum beat and call it music but it's not. You can make millions and win grammys but in the end you're still just talking not singing.

Blacks don't get this.

Without people of color this country would be as bland as a piece of wonder bread. I don't get offended when white people copy other cultures. I mean, they don't really have a cultural identity so I understand.

R16, well who did "come up" with it, then, and what has it been used to mean? Oh wait, would that require actual research and work, something as simple as a Google search? Well, we can't ask people to do that then.

Like, if I write a children's book and put a five-pointed star and a goat's head on the cover because I saw it somewhere else and thought it looked "cool", should I be free from criticism for being an idiot and marking a children's book with satanic symbols? "Well, symbols can mean anything, and satanists aren't the only ones who use goat heads and five-pointed stars!" Yeah, but they mean something specific to many people and if you'd bothered doing some research before taking it from your own work (not creating it originally, taking it from somewhere else), you'd know that. And hey, you have artistic license to actually use those symbols if you want - no individual "owns" them - but people are also free to call you out for being an idiot or an insensitive clod.

It's really simple - you see something from another culture (a dress style, an art motif, a dance) that you want to incorporate into your own work - great! Actually look into it and figure out what it means. That's the simple price to pay for taking another culture's creation rather than making something original yourself. It turns out it's a sacred religious rite and you want to use it for your booty-shakin' video? Well, you're actually still free to use it if that's the kind of statement you want to make, and you're free to be criticized for it. What isn't great is if you claim the ignorance defense because you were just too lazy to bother learning about the source. You did some research and missed out on a secondary meaning? Hey, that's actually fine, and people are often more than willing to forgive artists who make an honest effort.

So much defense of cultural appropriation seems to be just pure laziness and entitlement. "Why should I have to do work or learn about (or give credit for) something I want to use? I should just be free to take and do whatever I want with whatever I see, and no one can criticize me!"

Then, stop hanging out on ONTD, OP.

r24 has brought ONTD to us, unfortunately.

Well this post ought to be full of learning.

[quote]I don't get offended when white people copy other cultures. I mean, they don't really have a cultural identity so I understand.

If you want to play that game...

Who do you think came up with pianos, guitars, and all the rest? Which leaves you with....drums? So who's copying who, if you want to be cunty about it?

According to you, then, r24, makers of the American flag should honor and respect the Satanic roots of the five-pointed stars on the American flag.

[quote]What is wrong with liking something about a culture and wanting to incoporate it into your life? As long as it is from actual people from that culture

From the same political school of thought that brought you, [italic] "Why do words have to have meanings, anyway? I can't be expected to know EVERYTHING in the dictionary!!! Can't I just say what I want and define what I actually meant by it later?" [/italic]

OP/R9 has stated her boundaries!

Er, no, R29 that's not what I'm saying at all? Stop playing dumb and using straw-man arguments.

As noted before, the five-pointed star doesn't have "satanic" roots; satanic cults took that (ancient) symbol and used it for their own purposes, and it's been used by many cultures.

But if the designer of the American flag got the five-star symbol by looking at satanic texts and decided to incorporate them into the design because he didn't know what they meant, then yeah, I'd say that'd be pretty stupid and open to criticism. The same as if a modern-day graphic designer decides to use Islamic religious symbols from Middle Eastern art he sees and then gets defensive when people tell him it's actually religious? "Well, how was I supposed to know that?" Oh, I don't know, you could have looked it up.

So then I fully expect you can give lengthy and informed explanations for the meanings behind the Masonic symbols on the reverse side of the dollar bill.

If you can't, you can't use them. Stop appropriating the Masonic heritage.

It's really not hard to find about a HUNDRED sources on this topic all over the internet but that would take something of an open-mind when OP clearly just wanted to WHINE about something that makes his little life oh so hard.

OP: "Whaaaaaaaa. Woe is me. I don't understand something so it must be bad. Let's kill it! "

Well, perhaps the worst example of cultural appropriation is the Swastika. The symbol has been a religious symbol in India, Nepal, China, Japan, etc. for centuries. Now, because of the use of the Swastika by the NAZIs, those cultures are being required to stop using the symbol. This is particularly true in Japan where WWII has additional baggage.

And just an FYI, the six pointed star is also the symbol of the brewers guild and the German Christmas star. If one is in Europe and sees that symbol, do not assume that is is a Jewish symbol.

r12 is the reason Right-wingers get elected.

I don't let anyone tell me what I can & can't do when it comes to issues like this.

If I want to cook Mexican food, get a Chinese symbol tattoo or learn fucking belly dancing...it's no one else's place to criticize my choices.

They sound like "professional activists" who always need to be angry at someone or something, just for the attention.

They can go fuck themselves & get a life.

Oh for fuck's sake when people talk of Cultural Appropriate NO ONE IS TALKING ABOUT YOUR FUCKING TAKE OUT DINNER.

This post is full of stupid.

Also, one has to make a distinction between getting the culture wrong, and transforming it into something new. The Chinoiserie of the late 18-eary 19th centuries is intentionally not accurate, but it has value on its own terms.

I will appropriate, steal, borrow, lift, copy any thing from any culture or ethnicity I I jolly well please.

If someone calls me on it, I will weigh the merit of the complaint at that instance, in that case, and the intentions of me and the complainant with the case at hand.

If I can see another viewpoint, I MAY apologize.

If not, I will surely tell the cunt to fuck off and die, all the while slurring their ass off.

R15...oh PLEASE STFU!! I'm in college and I hear this shit all the time. Usually from pansexual genderqueer transgenders who think that they are the intellectual superiors of everyone else. They toe the PC line on everything. This is why the left no longer has any power. Instead of focusing on bread and butter issues for the working class (especially the working poor), they are up the ass of every goofball 'cause' they can find.

R38, "Cultural appropriation" is STUPID. NOTHING emanates purely from one distinct, specific source. It's bullshit. Groups CLAIM they create things, but those things are often from multiple sources.

People steal ideas from other cultures, musicians, artists, inventors, whatever, all the time. The problem comes when they take credit for those stolen ideas and present them as their own original creations.

People do it all the time. ALL THE TIME. I am a designer. People have launched businesses on ideas they stole from me. It is a very galling aspect of human behavior and there is often nothing you can do about it unless copyrights are infringed and compensation is possible.

Honorable people give credit for ideas they appropriated, but others simply seek to profit without really doing the work.

But, creativity infuses the human experience and we are often inspired by other cultures and it enriches all of our experiences. But yes, many unique ideas are routinely stolen and the creators remain unsung and uncompensated.

Bunch of white racists, all of you, and black suck-ups. You all don't have any culture for youselves, and so you steal from the very people who your foreparents enslaved and/or murdered. You think you don't benefit from those actions, but you still do. And while people who have nothing left to hang on to but their culture, you take that too. You shit on it. You make it so that if a white person does it, it's cool; if a non-white person does it, it's wrong or ratchet or scary.

Sick.

R43, you're assuming they stole their ideas from you. It's possible they also had those ideas themselves.

R44, White people do have their own cultures (note use of plural). French, Italian, German, Irish, Swedish, cultures are all distinct cultures.

I disdain the author of the article because everybody knows Arabs are WHITE as snow and they appropriated the dance from gypsies and other cultures further east. People who try to make Middle Easterners a "visible minority" are loathesome idiots.

To all the naysayers on this thread (who come off every bit as unhinged and ANGRY as the ONTD types they decry)--why then was there so much outrage over the Octavia Spencer version of Murder, She Wrote (which since has been shelved); and now, over the casting of black actors in the Annie remake?

Or is it OK to be upset about those things, but not about Led Zeppelin "appropriating" black music without compensation (or attribution, until forced to do so after protests)? Are you claiming Little Richard should NOT have been incensed by Pat Boone?

And R22, people said the same thing about blues, jazz, rock music, and virtually every other musical genre invented by black people. You sound like the record execs of the '20s-50s, talking about "race music."

We've been dealing with this from whites,latinos and others for the past 120+ years.

R48, I cannot speak for everyone, but my problem with the "Murder She Wrote" reboot was that it was to be pretty much the same scripts with a different actress. If they had re-imagined it as is the case Annie, I would not have had any issues. Obviously, I don't have a problem with Annie. The creative team have taken it and made it their own.

Yeah this is a new level of dumb.

I can see some places where it would genuinely bother people: for example if it's a sacred symbol or outfit, like the Native American fathered headdress, or the bindi.

But to say Vanessa Hudgins cannot wear a sari or an Indian dancing outfit, or that Miley Cyrus cannot twerk, is just ridiculous. Those kinds of arguments should be met with contempt.

The woman who wrote original article has some points to make, but she negated any point she could have made by agreeing to the racist (and inaccurate) headline "Why I can't stand white belly dancers."

Websites like Salon and the Huffpost and Gawker use these inflammatory headlines purely as clickbait.

R47, true, but the hottest arabs are brown-skinned, not white. Or even darker, but those who appear white are just as boring as Minnesota.

So apparently white = boring and culture = music & dance.

All these haters fail to consider where they'd be without the products of white civilization, i.e. air travel, telecommunications, modern medicine and sanitation, etc., etc., etc.

Personally, my preference is to consider it all a big, fun mash-up. But when people get insulting some things need to be pointed out.

45, not assuming. They purchased items from me. They would come see my work at shows and take ideas. I was in large group shows in the 80s. They would buy clothing from a designer friend, take it apart and make patterns from her designs. Idea theft from artists is rampant.

I find it interesting that the author is ignoring the obvious problem with "appropriating" belly dancing from Arab culture.

The very Arab cultures that gave us belly dancing are the same cultures that treat women as second class citizens.

Why on earth would any self-respecting women of any color want to embrace this symbol of repression? Let's be clear this isn't about embracing one's history - belly dancing is a symbol today of a culture which continues to treat women as second class citizens. For example how many Saudi Arabian belly dancers drove to their last gig?

How is belly dancing a 'symbol of oppression'?? Isn't anything explicitly female and sexual, then, symbolic of oppression? Does that make every other Hollywood film symbols of oppression?

I wonder if all the presumably white gay men here that see nothing wrong with appropriation are okay with straight people using gay lingo and ripping off gay culture.

appropriation is okay provided it is not mocking and those appropriating admit that they are appropriating.

I think people only hate appropriation when those that copy make more money and garner more attention and respect from it. Hence the mainstream media all of a sudden covering twerking, and acting as if it is new or that Miley Cyrus invented it.

[quote]I wonder if all the presumably white gay men here that see nothing wrong with appropriation are okay with straight people using gay lingo and ripping off gay culture.

Fine with me!

Who gives a shit?

[quote]Hence the mainstream media all of a sudden covering twerking, and acting as if it is new or that Miley Cyrus invented it.

It's not like she's pretending she invented the Post-It.

Twerking is just a way of shaking your ass. Who gives a shit who invented it first?

There's sort of two different conversations happening here.

1-One, around the idea that people, maybe especially if dumb, young, and mainstream American, don't have any deeper insight or historical knowledge of culture, and history, so nothing has any meaning, and all we have are surfaces, so bindis 'look pretty', so hey why not? At least until the next empty trend displaces it with something else.

On this point R12 may have a sliver of a partial point, on their second point.----And I otherwise bascially agree with all the people fed up with social justice warriors, and many of the points made. I've actually made similar points before, and I'm a little excited that their seems to suddenly be a rising tide of people that are finally standing up to that crowd, like there's a growing realization that they're ruining the left-but that's another story.----I am very much in favour of infusing the culture with greater erudition, a greater historical, and world perspective about cultures. I'm in favour of a *real* multiculturalism that involves lining up all the worlds cultures beside each other and studying them all in their historical-material contexts, noting similarities and differences. That's what real multiculturalism might look like to me, not what's currently referred to as such, which seems to be some combination of tossing out Shakespeare, and replacing him with bell hooks, so as to make sure the college reading list is 50% genderqueer womyn of color, and shrugging and saying "Oh, well who's to judge?" when an Islamic fundamentalist tries to execute their rebellious children, or a Cambodian peasant immigrant attempts marriage-by-capture on the streets of Los Angeles, or something.

So, yes I'd like people to have a better knowledge of cultures, both 'others', and 'their own'. Although, moving forward, the lines between those two are only getting more blurry...and looking backwards into history, well, the same young, dumb Americans who don't know anything about Hinduism, or African rhythms, or whatever...don't really seem to know anything about European classical music, or European folk melodies, or Christianity, or the Enlightenment, or the history the West. It's not really a racist thing, they just don't know anything about *anything*.

2-The second conversation is the standard, dumb, identity politics sjw/progressive point that divides people into ethnicities, and then says they own 'their culture'. And white people, or westerners, or who ever the devil oppressor is supposed to be in the equation is racist and bad for sampling something too much...or not enough...or something. Either way, you're evil.

This is largeley nonsense, and I'm much more in complete agreement with posters here. Culture is not static. It is a product of, and arises out of the historical, material socioeconomic conditions at a place in time, intersecting with human impulses, and aspects of the human condition, poured into social forms. It stands on the shoulders of everything that came before it, and is constantly in flux. It's in flux more than ever before in our modern, globalized, technologically advanced world. Ever since people have interacted or traded there's been cross-pollination, and influences, and learning from others.

A common thing to say is "The Blacks invented rock and roll, and the whites stole it", both by guilty, self-hating white sjw's, and grumpy black nationalists...but the truth is much, much more complicated. Rock was an American form, that arose out of the stew of American culture at that time. It had African-based elements, Black-American elements, European elements, and White-American elements, played on electric instruments as modern technology developed them. Then it spread out to the rest of the world, with all the more cross-pollination.

While there may be incidents where culture cross-pollinates in exploitative ways, or by ignorant people who don't fully appreciate or feel what they're playing with, even these examples would be complicated, and the baby doesn't have to go with the bath water.

[quote]....Cambodian peasant immigrant attempts marriage-by-capture on the streets of Los Angeles....

Can gays do that?

R58, isn't that type of appropriation a positive thing though? If gay lingo and gay culture (whatever that means) get appropriated by straights, then they become mainstream, and make gays seem less like some scary "other."

What a load of pc bullshit. Cultures have influenced each other for millenia. Apparently that is now called "cultural appropriation", is a bad thing and must come with a copyright disclaimer.

I can see it right in front of my eyes:

Medival European upperclass declaring "It's Chinese!" everytime someone sees them wearing their fine silk clothes. The Ottomans printing "inspired by Europe, no copyright infringement meant" on the ladies' desses in the 18th century. The Japanese holding signs "Westernised everything" at the end of the 19th century. Non-European musicians must always read a disclaimer before a concert of European music. White pop singers must point out the dance moves derived from traditional African dances....

Let's not forget Christmas in Japan.

Santa Claus

Mickey Mouse

KFC

WTF?

Oh, and I also demand that all non-Europeans/Americans/Canadians/Australians/Newzealanders/European South Africans stop wearing western-style clothes right now or - should they decide to keep wearing them - admit who created the style and pay for further usage. I also demand we be paid royalities for the last couple of centuries cultures all over the world adopted our style of dress. How dare they just pull a cultural appropriation on our fashion and don't even mention they are wearing OUR stuff?

All media must cease to opperate in non-European countries right now. They can't just incorporate our inventions into their culture without constantly declaring that we invented all that cool shit. Books must come with a default copyright notice of "Book printing invented by the Chinese and Germans" and any non-Chinese and non-German publishers and authors must perform a ritual of Chinese and German praising whenever they print and release a new book.

The author is huge. It would be best if she was doing some belly dance because she's enormous.

I think R68 has hit the nail on the head with what her issue really is; other women look better than her doing it. Interesting that she talks about Fifi Abdo being her favourite dancer, because Abdo has been incredibly complimentary of non-Arab women taking up belly dancing:

‘I am really proud that raqs sharki is so appreciated around the world – something that most Egyptians are not really aware of. In America, one of the things that especially pleased me was the inclusiveness of the dance scene there – in my classes I saw women of many different ages – and body types – enjoying dancing, and that made me happy. They want to learn this dance no matter what their background, age, or shape!’

But the lack of research by Jarrar is no surprise really as her article fails at its very premise. The roots of belly dancing existed prior to Arab colonisation of Egypt, and yet she says: "This dance form is originally ours". It also exists across many cultures including the majority white Bulgarians.

Anyway, Randa Jarrar is a nasty piece of work who spends her time trying to ruin the careers of other authors, just like her BFF's Roxane Gay and Myriam Gurba. She even attacked one journalist who defended her article. Apparently it was her fault that Jarrar got more hate mail than this other journalist did (how she knows that, I have no idea), and Jarrar demanded an apology.

Two things. Either Salon has a terrible editor who ought to be fired. Or they publish these inane articles to generate clicks.

r70 Gee, ya think?

Well, it was part of a series curated by Roxane Gay, so there was definitely something terrible going on there. But the generating clicks things makes sense too. Probably a bit from column A and a bit from column B. I mean, they even got her to write a follow up article where she ignored all the well-deserved criticism and just focused on what she thought would make those that disagreed with her look foolish.

What's hilarious is how she dismisses the critics arguments over "something I wrote on my dining table in a few hours". That's the problem! It is obvious you put no effort into it, your arguments are weak, stupid and worst of all, divisive, and yet somehow you're proud of this?

R71 Sorry I didn't click the link. What this gotta do with Gawker?

R69 Is 2014 the new 2015?

At this point, if I were to be accused of cultural appropriation, my response would be, “hell yeah I’m appropriating! And I’m not apologizing for it!”

My Egyptian friends think she's ridiculous, saying she hates white belly dancers. It makes me laugh to imagine her coming to one of their dinners with that attitude.

I think R75 has the right idea. In my case, I'd love to just wiggle my hips in front of her and ask her if it's causing her mental distress.

"Insensitive and culturally appropriative french white women". 😂

I'm part Arab, I couldn't give less of a shit if a white chick wants to belly dance. Appropriation comes into play when you attempt to take credit for something from that culture - as Israel currently does with Middle Eastern food.

Like I've said in other shit stirring cultural appropriation threads, there's nothing wrong with liking, trying out things in different cultures. But when other people suddenly think it's hot hip and happening because you do it, that's a problem. I would never call what music Justin Timberlake or Adele make CA because how do we know what music they grew up listening to? They're just doing the music they love. Now when you the audience decide you want to hear R&B only from other white people, well that's a problem.

R23 - yeah because ALL white people are identical. How bland are the Irish and their spirited and democratic influence on our culture? Amazing presidents, authors, musicians, actors, etc...never mind Italian-Americans who have a rich and colorful culture. Why generalize one race as all the same people?

I for one know that there is equal variety in any group of POC. For example, Mexican-Americans are quite different than Puerto Ricans. All about each culture with it's own beauty.

Funny you should say that, R78. Until recently I had no idea that Arabs eat schwarma, thinking it uniquely Israeli.

[quote] But when other people suddenly think it's hot hip and happening because you do it, that's a problem

So in your crazy delusional mind, you want to control how people react to something? You are indeed crazy and sad.

R12 = the preachy, SJW female at work who is a dash plump.

R23 is nuts. Just because you think all whites are the same, their culture is “white,” doesn’t mean that’s any resemblance to reality.

Germans, Swedes, Dutch, Irish, English, French, etc. You really think French culture and Swedish culture are exactly the same? They speak the same language, have the same kind of music, eat the identical same kind of food, wear the same traditional clothes? You must have been raised in a cave.

Even Scottish and Irish people, who live fairly nearby, wear different traditional clothes, have different food, speak different languages. I guess you’ve never heard of the Welsh. Since they’re white, they must all speak English and not have a different language, right? With the same accent as Queen Elizabeth. And I guess the native German and French languages are English. Because all whites have only one non-existent culture, and have to copy some other culture because they have nothing. George Bernard Shaw doesn’t exist, Yeats, Shakespeare, Jane Austen, none of them ever happened. Robin Hood, King Arthur, Lord of the Rings, Harry Potter? Never happened.

That’s the most ignorant, ridiculous statement I’ve ever heard. Before you go criticizing other people’s lack of culture, maybe you should do something about your lack of education or interest in anything past the end of your nose.

Let's change the song from "Ebony and Ivory" to "Life is an Eskimo Pie, Let's Take a Bite." Eskimos might find it offense? Who cares, they don't buy records."

r82: did I say I wanted to control the way someone thinks? Did I? I was just stating the way it is, that's why you're pressed. It's true.

[quote]Funny you should say that, [R78]. Until recently I had no idea that Arabs eat schwarma, thinking it uniquely Israeli.

It's disgusting and ridiculous that Israelis are trying to claim foods that were either Middle Eastern or Turkish. I'll never forget Rachel Ray -who should know better- claiming she was eating "Israeli food" as if none of what she was eating had existed before 1948. She got dragged and people were posting pictures of things like Pizza and claiming they were eating "Japanese food" that evening.

^Hahaha, see those responses are done with the kind of humour I like. Mock and poke fun, don't cancel!

Here's an example of one of the reactions Rachel Ray got:

Haha, I just saw that one, or how about this one?

Most professional belly dancers would have to get real jobs, if they weren't able to teach all the white women who want to work on their abs.

Cultural appropriation occurs when the dominant culture eradicates and/or oppresses a group and then ostentatiously engages in the costume, activities and/or values of that group. It's not just doing a dance, it's doing the dance of people you don't allow in your group.

That's not what cultural appropriation is at all, that's just an example about how everybody uses the term to mean what they want it to mean.

It is meant to be a neutral term used to describe the phenomenon where a cultural expression is either ignored or dismissed when exhibited by a minority group, and then is thought of as exciting and fresh when a member of the majority engages with it. That's all. It was never intended to be a good or a bad thing, just an observed phenomenon.

PS, my post above sounds a bit bitchy, and I apologise, I didn't intend it to, but reading it over it's more direct than the way I usually speak. 😘

R94 you just repeated what I said in different words.

Don't teach your grandmother to suck eggs, 'kay?

No, because it doesn't have to have anything to do with eradicating or oppressing peoples, both of which we already have perfectly good terms for (genocide, slavery).

Learn to read.

So anyone that is not of Egyptian decent stop learning higher math immediately!

Because Algebra is an Egyptian concept!

God, R99, don't go giving Randa Jarrar ideas! 😂

Unless someone is actively taking money away from a minority group, like the Chinese making fake cheap-ass Navajo-style jewelry and putting the Navajo artisans out of business, then it's frankly trivial. Annoying to some, but not a huge deal really, and mainly something that small-minded people use to attack each other with.

Right now, the president of the US is a crook who's losing his mind, corruption has become rampant, the climate is changing, the oceans are tying, there's an environmental catastrophe looming, and anyone who sits at home and spends their time accusing others of cultural appropriation needs a slap upside the head and a few months volunteering at an oil spill or homeless shelter.

Couldn't have said it better myself, R101!

"At this point, if I were to be accused of cultural appropriation, my response would be, “hell yeah I’m appropriating! And I’m not apologizing for it!”

How brave of you to act in such a way in a hypothetical situation that has never happened.

Well, technically you haven't done anything since this has never happened to you.

But should it happen, should your potential fantasy come true, how brave of you to declare yourself a future hero in a hypothetical future.

You know, in your mind.

This is the Bill Maher thread: watch privileged little shit ME bravely defend civilization from SAVAGES who think we shouldn't appropriate what we want and fuck it up anyway we choose.

Yet y'all lose yur shit over trans.

I came across this thread the other day, and I dunno if something is maybe wrong with me, but I agree with this guy overall. And yet every single comment underneath is really angry, often very hateful and telling him what a bad person he is. Isn't he just advocating for inclusivity and multiculturalism? Am I missing something? Why is everyone so aggressive with him? Is it because he's on the Left but not towing the line? People are dismissing his opinion because he's white, but he's not, and so they're moving the goal posts and dismissing his indigenous ancestry in what seems to be a really racist way. Someone told him he's advocating for genocide. Another girl sent him a picture of a gun and wrote on it: "this is for you".

Twitter is a frightening place, I don't think I'll spend much time there.

Has he said something offensive that I'm missing?

[quote]Hi everyone, idk who needs to hear this but cultural appropriation ISNT inherently a bad thing. Cultures are supposed to mix. Not one culture on this planet is “original”. All of them have bits and pieces of other cultures. We ain’t building no god damn ethnostate. So maybe, can we fucking chill with telling people that they aren’t allowed to wear certain garments, or say certain things just because 1 individual is SUPER WOKE. The best way to make sure everyone is respected is to help move marginalized cultures into the mainstream. Help society see that these marginalized groups are just as normal as the dominant culture and should be embraced.

[quote]Lastly, no one should be forced to participate in a culture that they don’t like just because they were born into it. If you’re a white American and you want to practice Inuit culture because that’s more “you”, LIT. There’s literally nothing wrong with that. This type of virtue signaling is so gross. It doesn’t help anyone. You want to really help out marginalized cultures, maybe help get them the resources they need to thrive instead of telling people they aren’t allowed to say “spirit animal” or some dumb shit.

R104 is a homophobic misogynistic concern troll. Banish him.

[quote]I'm part Arab, I couldn't give less of a shit if a white chick wants to belly dance. Appropriation comes into play when you attempt to take credit for something from that culture - as Israel currently does with Middle Eastern food.

Considering that Israelis are also Middle Eastern, it's quite appropriate.

And before you spout white-supremacist and anti-Semitic talking points, the majority of Israelis are of middle eastern background. And Those who are Ashkenazi have been proven by DNA testing to be related to them as well.

^This makes sense. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Ashkenazi tended not to marry outsiders, is that right? So their DNA would very strongly tie back to the Middle East where they came from, yes? It's why those ancestry tests can tell you how much Ashkenzai Jewish DNA you have, but have trouble when it comes to, say, Sephardic ancestry, because the Sephardic Jews didn't keep marriage only between themselves. That's my understanding, anyway.

God, the West is neurotic.

You’re all insane.

The “CA is real” people are inherently insane.

The people who bother to argue with these children are willfully insane.

The rest of the world laughs.

Is it the West though? Or just the US in particular? I live in the West, and many people don't seem to have heard of cultural appropriation and when they have they make fun of it as being "typical American nonsense".

I do have some sympathy for people who argue back, just because it can't be nice to be basically accused of being a racist when you aren't and have no bad intentions, and much of the time are actually trying to engage with another culture. And if, like in the Twitter feed a few posts above, everyone attacks you as being a bad person, and in some cases they threaten you, I can see why they would argue back.

But on the whole, I do agree the whole thing is nuts.

2014 TROLL

2014 TROLL

2014 TROLL

2014 TROLL

Uh oh. Who's going to be dancing the Viennese Waltz?

The Hula vs. The Belly Dance

Who wore it best?

Hawaiians appropriated Japanese culture with spam musubi.

Vietnamese appropriated French baguettes and exploited it for their sandwiches, even putting paté in them.

Mexicans appropriated Japanese culture when making fish tacos, as there were many Japanese immigrants in Mexico that lived on the coast and fried their fish tempura style. How dare the Mexicans make tacos from that with shredded cabbage and salsa! oh I'm getting hungry now! 🌮

See how ridiculous that sounds. It's not all black and white. (Pun intended) it's multiple streams, multicultural layering.

Appreciation not appropriation.

Chill and enjoy!

People bitch when their culture isn't noticed and then they bitch when people "appropriate" it, make up your mind!!

You gotta go where you wanna go, do what you wanna do, with whoever you wanna do it with...

All you have to do is google 'cultural appropriation' and educate yourself. It means killing all the Indians, paying money for their scalps, and then going kayaking on the river and feeling virtuous about how 'natural' you are.

But I know you won't get that.

That's not what it means at all. It came out of academia as a neutral term to describe how a certain cultural practice is often seen differently depending on whether a minority group or a majority group is engaging with it. That's all. It was never intended to be a good or a bad thing, just a descriptor. Now everyone is using it as a way to sound more intelligent than they are and using it to describe things we already have terms for: racism, genocide, intellectual property, for example. Or they're using it just to try and exert control over other people, to shame them, or to make a living off of (ie people like Randa Jarrar, posted above).

A lot of it really does relate to people being bullied as children and then wanting control as an adult over others. It would be like me as a redhead trying to cancel Tori Amos because she dyes her hair red and she "doesn't understand the pain of being bullied for being redheaded" - I mean, I think that would be completely ridiculous but this is often the level the argument is going to (I actually thought it cool when I found out others wanted to dye their hair my colour, thought it was a positive thing). I saw some people argue that non-Indians shouldn't enjoy Indian food because at school people had made fun of their "smelly" food. It's all getting very ridiculous. How are we ever going to get over our stupid racial attitudes if we won't let others join in?

Cultural appropriation is the adoption of an element or elements of one culture or identity by members of another culture or identity. This can be controversial when members of a dominant culture appropriate from disadvantaged minority cultures. WIKIPEDIA

R119, you nailed it. I've seen people say that non-white women shouldn't braid their hair. Who has the right to tell people what hairstyles to wear? I understand black people do experience discrimination based on their hair (in the workplace) but that doesn't mean you can dictate what others do.

Your racism is showing so, bye bye.

Ignore.

R122, you seem to be talking to yourself. I'm sure you'll get all the help you need, eventually.

[quote] I've seen people say that non-white women shouldn't braid their hair.

Correction, this should say "non-BLACK women".

I have a female friend who took up bellydancing because she wanted a low impact exercise that was fun. She had a leg injury and can't do any high impact stuff. She was well aware of the actual name and respected the origins of the dance but the thing is Western culture made it more fun. If you see an actual real Arabic woman performing Raqs Sharqi and a "white bellydancer", the "white" dancer is more entertaining but Arabic women have been bitching for years about this. My step-grandmother, a Madrileno, studied dance for years and years and back in the fifties won an international award for her Eastern dance. Arabics say that Westerners don't have the "soul" to do it but they are full of shit. Just pointless bitchery and a chip on their shoulder and this writer definitely has one. They should really be pissed off at the Russian women who turn it into a high form of sluttery. They all look like porn stars and make the porn faces while they dance.

My borderline p.d. cousin did belly dancing. I'm sure she thought her teacher had invented it and couldn't have cared less about middle eastern culture. lol

But dancing and yoga are not exactly cultural appropriation imo. I associate cultural appropriation with names like the Redskins, using Cinco de Mayo as an excuse to wear a sombrero and get drunk, and white boys talking and walking like urban black youngsters.

Cultural appropriation is just an excuse for permanently aggrieved people to complain. White women have been braiding their way before coming into contact with Africans. Serious dancers will often times study international dance and perform it. These are just exhausting millennials who took too many feminist study classes and shit like that.

R127, you just deflect, you don't address the valid examples.

Who gives a fuck about braids??????????????????????????????????

Cultural appropriation isn’t a thing. It only exists in the minds of activists and social justice warriors.

Society is a melting pot and we borrow from and celebrate other cultures all the time.

said the Trump troll

[quote]Society is a melting pot and we borrow from and celebrate other cultures all the time.

"Melting pot" hasn't been the metaphor since the 90s. These days the US is recognized as a cultural mosaic, a "tossed salad" of people and cultures, each retaining their distinct qualities and attributes, not blending into a uniform glop.

Stay in your lane.

R128 someone mentioned complaints about white women braiding their hair.

I guess whites won't be able to eat or cook Indian or Thai food anymore.

could someone explain what a "bindi" is and what it's for? The only bindi I know of is that daughter of that killed by a stingray guy.

Just more scold-fuel for Lleny/Zee narcissists pretending to care about others.

Bindi is the dot on indian foreheads.

Am I allowed to make spaghetti? I'm not Italian.

Now that the Social Justice Warriors have decreed that belly dancing is sinful and Cultural Appropriation I will have to call it Buttock Dancing or Arsehole Dancing instead.

R121, and I would argue that white women not braiding their hair isn't going to suddenly make black women less discriminated against. In fact, if we limit different ethnicities to only being able to do certain things, that would be a field day for racists.

Anyway, it's completely ahistorical, as most of these arguments tend to be. Cornrow braids have been practiced all around the world, from the original Americans, to Tibet, to Greece, to Namibia. I heard one archeologist once say that you get any group of people and isolate them for long enough, having them play with each others' hair, that they will naturally come up with these hair styles out of sheer boredom.

Speaking of bindis, that reminds me how you often see Gwen Stefani considered problematic because of her wearing of bindis in the early days of No Doubt. The thing is, even as someone who didn't follow them very much, I've seen her on TV talking about how bindis were given to her by her boyfriend's Indian mother who encouraged her to wear them. These angry Twitter people never seem to take into account the feelings of the people they want to protect. I've even seen them say things like: "it's a shame they don't see the problem!" Talk about White Man's Burden!

R139, I remember that. I also find it funny that Madonna's La Isla Bonita song is huge to this day in Latin America. You would think, with all the uproar about appropriation, Latinos would be boycotting that song.

I only care about "cultural appropriation" when it's used to mock and belittle the culture being appropriated. When it's cruel, it's an issue.

Good point R141. Yep, mocking and belittling other people's culture is just rude, and I have no time for that either. Honestly, I never even considered that 'cultural appropration', just being an arsehole.

People who claim they are anti-racist always use the phrase: "stay in your lane", and yet that would work perfectly as a slogan for Apartheid.

How do people expect others to learn if they always "stay in their lane". I saw some SJW on facebook saying non-black people needed to "stay in their lane" when criticizing Kanye and his destructive behavior. She said that they should not be criticizing Kanye and to stay in their lane because black people "will take care of our own just fine, thank you". I had no idea an entertainer could be the property of one race! And this was months before Kanye decided to run for president. Her posts haven't aged well.

I'm a lot more concerned with straight male fetishists colonizing gay culture and organizations and flouncing around in woman face while they lobby to undo all sex based legal protections.

Yeah, that is such a weird thing for her to say, R144. Honestly, it sounds more like she couldn't handle a debate about him, so she used an emotional argument to try and shut down opinions she didn't want to hear.

And yes, the "stay in your lane" philosophy doesn't encourage learning or growing at all. I saw Roxane Gay once say: "if you stay in your lane you can create NEW lanes" like this was some kind of deep insight, but it actually is a pretty nothing statement, like a lot of what she says.

...they said, in English

Am I appropriating because English isn't my first language? When I use chopsticks? When I take off my shoes when asked because that's the cultural norm at my host's place? Or when I use "Western medicine"? Should I accuse someone of appropriation when they eat my culture's food or wears my culture's clothing? I wouldn't. Thinking something is "mine" is what got us into this mess.

The hysterical replies here show white people as a whole haven't moved one bit since the 60's.

Exactly, R149. the phrase "check your privilege" to them means some kind of airline bag.

Not quite, r149.

It's possible one can be both progressive and critical of certain concepts in the progressive knapsack.

R151 = Dame Edith Evans

Nobody knows anyone's background here. So, that's an odd thing to say R149. Some of the biggest eye rolls I've seen from people over this have been from non-white people who are kinda sick of Americans telling them they're victims all the time, and who actually, believe it or not, love it when others join in on their culture.

[quote]Thinking something is "mine" is what got us into this mess.

And it doesn't work either because if you go back far enough, every group has been inspired by others.

Exactly, R151. I'm a progressive too, and so many of these arguments about cultural appropriation are actually anti-progressive to my mind.

It’s for the globe’s losers to drag down its winners.

Like bitching about colonialism and colorism.

R155 Translation: the Master Race rules and has nothing to apologize for.

R153 this guy is why your point is moot. You're so fragile as a white person that you're chumming it up with and agreeing with actual nazis. It's disgusting.

Look at the whole map, r156,

R156, you've made some really ridiculous leaps there. This type of arguing is why you can't be taken seriously. Logical fallacies abound. Nothing I've said has anything to do with chumming it up with Nazis. I would reject any Nazi-esque philosophy, and that includes the idea that people must be restricted from mixing with cultures different than their own.

[quote] I would reject any Nazi-esque philosophy,

You've shown you're incapable of recognizing it. Next.

No. No I haven't. You're making a whole lot of assumptions about someone you don't know and if you did meet me in person you'd pretty quickly see how foolish you're being.

R160 Okay, let's meet in person. I'm offering to call you on the phone now and explain to you why R155 is a white supremacist and this entire thread is peopled by them along with a majority of similarly offended white people unaware of what critique is actually being levied.

Take me up on the offer. I'll give you an email you can reach me at if you'd like.

I got some good dick last night.

Any body else bored with this drivel?

Tell us about the good dick R162.

When is Cultural Appropriation Inappropriate?

In the article, What’s Wrong with Cultural Appropriation? These 9 Answers Reveal Its Harm, Maisha Johnson expertly elaborates on the impact of cultural appropriation. Below are just a few of the reasons:

-When it trivializes violent, historical oppression

Let us look at both sides of the argument surrounding the name “Redskins.” The owners and fans of the NFL team believe they are honoring Native Americans, as well as keeping to tradition since the team was named in 1933. For them, the indigenous activists who are calling for a name change are being too sensitive. For native people, though, the term “Redskins” carries an entirely different connotation: it reminds them of the time when the colonial and state governments and companies paid white people to kill Native Americans and use their scalps— “red skins”—as proof of their “Indian kill.” We have to ask ourselves: Where is the honor in celebrating genocide for profit?

-When it rewards some while the creators themselves never get credit for it

This is particularly true in the music industry, whose tradition of “borrowing” from Black artists and promoting white artists over more talented Black artists, continues to bring the record industry enormous profit. Elvis Presley has always been hailed as the “king of rock and roll.” The reality is that rock and roll came out of the blues music genre and was initially largely shaped by Black artists. However, whites were not inclined to support a Black artist in the 1950s. So, the record industry promoted Elvis, and other white stars, while those who actually created rock and roll never received credit for it.

--When it spreads lies about marginalized cultures

Native Americans in the 18th and 19th centuries were often portrayed as savages who killed and/or captured whites, especially women. Native men were consistently depicted overpowering terrified, white women, who needless to say, were sure to suffer indescribable horrors in their hands. The reality, however, was that whites killed many defenseless Native women and children, took captives, and tortured them. The story of Pocahontas, whose given name was Matoaka, is another example of the many inaccuracies spread about indigenous people in this country. Pocahontas was, in fact, abducted as a teenager, forced to marry an Englishman (not John Smith), and used as propaganda for racist practices before she died at the age of 21.

---When it perpetuates racist stereotypes

In the 2013 American Music Awards, Katy Perry performed as a geisha. Her intention may have been to honor the Japanese culture. Instead, she ended up using her music to perpetuate the common stereotype of Asian women as passive, submissive, sexual objects. While Perry was “in character,” Asian women have to constantly live with the consequences of racialized sexual harassment. They are often expected to live up to the “exotic geisha girl” stereotype of being sexually submissive and docile. Lauren Smash described her experiences in, Yellow Fever: Dating as an Asian Woman, as follows: “It is dehumanizing at best to constantly be compared to a stereotype and to have people chasing you not as a person, but as an embodiment of the stereotypes that they use to define you.” At the end of the show, Perry could return to her normal life. Asian women, on the other hand, have to constantly deal with the racist and sexist social norms that Perry helped perpetuate, which is what happens when the only mainstream image of your sexuality is a negative stereotype frequently reinforced by cultural appropriation.

R161, whether R155 is a white supremacist or not isn't really relevant to your accusation that I was chumming it up with Nazis, especially as I never responded to that post, nor did you give me a chance to tell you my own opinions on colonialism. And good luck meeting me in person, unless you're willing fly all the way out here (if you're American or European it's gonna take at least a day) and then quarantine for 14 days, twice. I don't doubt there may be some people with awful attitudes in this thread, believe me, you don't have to explain that to me, but I'm not one of them, that's my point.

At the same time, I am sorta curious to talk to you, haha. Been a bit of a lonely year.

Anyway, I do wanna hear about the dick R162 got.

Bravo, R164!

R162, are you bored by anything you don't understand?

White male privilege is alive and well on DL, that's for sure. "Check your privilege" is quite a useful phrase and helpful if one wants to understand society better. You have to be willing to hear some bad news, though, such as that it wasn't solely your immense talent and wonderful personality that made you a success.

Bravo, R164!

R162, are you bored by anything you don't understand?

White male privilege is alive and well on DL, that's for sure. "Check your privilege" is quite a useful phrase and helpful if one wants to understand society better. You have to be willing to hear some bad news, though, such as that it wasn't solely your immense talent and wonderful personality that made you a success.

R155 here. I’m not a white suprematist. East Asia is included in that map.

R151 What is your definition of the word 'progressive'? How can you claim to be 'progressive'?

R168 You believe the systematic slaughter and enslavement of millions was a success for the white race. The world's winners, as you put it. It's certainly not something any normal person should feel proud over. Did the Nazis almost "win" their conquest for racial purity and world dominance?

The quotes at R164 highlight to me how incredibly US-centric this whole discussion is. I remember the Katy Perry thing. Japanese people (ie those who are from Japan, as opposed to Americans of Japanese ancestry) were completely confused by the kerfuffle over that. They didn't care. No one in Japan cares if foreigners wear kimonos, for example. In fact, they make more money off foreigners wearing them than citizens, because Japanese people aren't wearing them so much these days.

Oh and yes, creators should absolutely get credit for what they create, and it's a problem when work is stolen. This is why intellectual property law is so important. But a culture as a whole can't be copyrighted, and it is once again ahistorical to claim that a certain type of music is black music, or white music etc. Look into the history and you'll see black artists were inspired in their own way by European music, classical, choral, and also many other types of music from Africa, South America etc. And thank fuck they were, we've gotten some awesome stuff out of that. The kinds of stuff that makes me happy to be human.

The argument to me is that the problem here is with mistreatment of people, and we don't fix anything by saying that white people can't engage in those cultures anymore. It reminds me a bit of the whole "thoughts and prayers" thing. You don't end up having to put in the hard effort to change things for the better, you can just say "thoughts and prayers" or accuse someone of "cultural appropriation" and feel good about yourself, like you've done the right thing. Real change is a lot harder and takes a much longer time, but is a lot more rewarding too.

R170, it’s about scientific achievement and development vs. arguing that knotting one’s hair is an exclusive and a valuable cultural asset. Again, see the map at R155. Do you know what that map is?

“Stealing” all the natural resources in the world means nothing if technology isn’t applied to those materials to add value and make use of them, and all labor in the world creates little without application of the mind.

You need to finish school. You have a simplistic, reflexive understanding of the world tha seems heavily informed by children on social media.

[quote]I'm not white,

I stopped reading after this.

R171

[quote] I remember the Katy Perry thing. Japanese people (ie those who are from Japan, as opposed to Americans of Japanese ancestry) were completely confused by the kerfuffle over that. They didn't care. No one in Japan cares if foreigners wear kimonos, for example. In fact, they make more money off foreigners wearing them than citizens, because Japanese people aren't wearing them so much these days.

Cool beans. However, the critique levied was not about the harm it does to your anecdotal Japanese people that you have successfully gauged the opinion of as a whole through I'm guessing psychic means or advance polling techniques, but in fact the damaging impact it has on Asian Americans who are eroticized by whites and impacted by the created stereotype.

Hence my point that the whole thing is very US-centric.

Hwo des Katy Perry wearing a kimono "eroticize" Asian Americans? The kimono isn't "erotic".

R176 I meant to actually write exoticized but both are true. Here is a quote from the referenced author, Lauren Smash, to put it into perspective.

[quote] They are more concerned with the idea of us – the notion that we are adorable little kawaii girls or demure lotus flowers or geisha-like sexual objects.

[quote] Their attraction to Asian women relies on stereotypes that turn us into exotic sexual objects instead of real women.

[quote] Stereotypes turn people like me into things that are measured against a caricature, and they strip me of the individuality that, frankly, I would probably have been more freely assigned if I were white.

Whites were throwing Africans and Filipinos in human petting zoos WELL into the 1950's. That's right, human petting zoos. Exotic animals for display. A time when some of the posters here were alive. The barbarity of this is unrecognized by most whites. The existence of them is unrecognized by most whites. It's not taught in your standard high school curriculum for obvious reasons. You really think this dehumanization campaign just abruptly stopped 50-70 years later?

The successes of this dehumanization effort can be found here now in this thread.

White people refuse to acknlowedge there's even a problem and they've got a ton of Candace Owens' they can point to avoid ever having to admit that xenophobia and racism is commonplace today and that stereotypes are a part of that.

Where 'Human Zoos' Once Stood, A Belgian Museum Now Faces Its Colonial Past

What does that have to do with cultural appropriation? I don't see people here, beyond an occasional troll, trying to deny xenophobia and racism is commonplace. Of course it is, and of course it's a scourge on humanity. We're talking about the concept of cultural appropriation, in particular how it's used to call people out in ways that don't seem to help us move beyond racism and xenophobia. You can't convince me that telling people they can't enjoy each others' cultures without being racist and insisting that everyone stay in their own lane is going to make for a better world, because it's not. The end result of that is segregation and judging each other by our background. It's quite sinister actually.

And I personally wouldn't listen to people like Candace Owens. But I do listen to actual people I know in my real life who come from a wide range of backgrounds. The only thing you will get if you tell them white people shouldn't engage with their culture is an eye roll and probably a "fuck off". In real life, people love connecting with others. Many of us hold the values of diversity, multiculturalism and sharing close to our hearts, and this cultural appropriation nonsense threatens merely to create division among peoples.

I highly suspect a lot of these angry Twitter people don't actually have friends, especially not from diverse backgrounds.

R180 Cultural appropriation and human zoos are alike because they are both emblems and tools of dehumanization. The latter is an example of the former. The exoticism and othering that drove the market for these zoos is present in the tropes that whites have historically designated to minorities through Hollywood and other propaganda means. See: Dragon Lady, Docile Slave, Violent Indigenous Savage stereotypes present in major film media that influence perceptions and attitudes.

You seem like one of the few people here capable of discerning that cultural appropriation/stereotyping has tangible consequences for minorities. So nothing I've said is directly aimed at you.

To alleviate some of your concerns and misgivings about what people who critique this type of social injustice are actually saying opposed to the hysterical exaggerations and strawmen arguments made here... a quote from the article copied at R164

[quote]I am not advocating for individuals, for example, to stop enjoying Mexican food if they are not Mexican, stop using their Bialetti coffee makers if they are not Italian, or stop using any other culturally-specific practice. I am suggesting that we (1) be thoughtful before adopting practices from other cultures, (2) be diligent about challenging our stereotypes, and (3) make a point of learning about oppressed people’s struggles.

I think one of the things that bugs me, in relation to this:

[quote]I am suggesting that we (1) be thoughtful before adopting practices from other cultures, (2) be diligent about challenging our stereotypes, and (3) make a point of learning about oppressed people’s struggles.

Is that it's often assumed by those people calling others out for cultural appropriation that these others are not doing these things, but you can't know that someone hasn't been thoughtful etc, and you certainly shouldn't assume it before telling them they've done the wrong thing.

Perhaps it would be better if people weren't so reactionary and quick to accuse others of having bad intentions, and instead asked a few questions first.

[quote] Perhaps it would be better if people weren't so reactionary and quick to accuse others of having bad intentions, and instead asked a few questions first.

The questions have been asked and answered. Intentions aside, the impact of damaging behavior remains the same regardless if you thought you were doing anything wrong or believed yourself free from malicious intent.

I really fail to see how wearing a kimono, wearing a qipao, dressing up for carnival, wearing braids, or any other of the numerous things that have come under the umbrella of 'cultural appropriation' cause damage to anyone. Stop white people from doing all these things, and race relations will not magically improve. However people engaging in each others cultures, sure sometimes it might be a bit awkwardly done, but on the whole is much more likely to improve things and have us all seeing each other as real people with real lives, rather than if we say "based on the way you look/your DNA here is the list of things you can do and the list of things you can't do." Which an historian could dismiss in no time, anyway.

Oh, no! No, no, NO!

[quote] The hysterical replies here show white people as a whole haven't moved one bit since the 60's.

I sometimes wonder if people have History classes in school anymore.

People haven't changed - PERIOD. People today are exactly the same as people in ancient times. This custom or that one may change, slavery comes and goes, this tribe migrates, that tribe dies off, but the essential nature of human beings hasn't changed in thousands of years.

I don't see how anyone looks at the world, at humankind, and is blind to this simple fact of life.

Hehe R185, well I must say he did a lot better than I did when I was pulled to the floor at a Turkish wedding, hahaha! Still, it was fun!

[quote] I really fail to see

Yes, exactly the problem.

[quote] sometimes wonder if people have History classes in school anymore. People haven't changed - PERIOD. People today are exactly the same as people in ancient times. This custom or that one may change, slavery comes and goes, this tribe migrates, that tribe dies off, but the essential nature of human beings hasn't changed in thousands of years. I don't see how anyone looks at the world, at humankind, and is blind to this simple fact of life.

Well of course none of this is true and it's been a couple thousand years since child sacrifice has been routinely practiced, for instance, but the social evolution of mankind is something you're clearly too uninformed to engage with about. Worse than your naïveté is your arrogance and self denial.

Do they actually teach black history in schools anymore?

Hi R189.

....

....

^ The Guardian is getting as hysterical and non-credible as Huffpost.

....

New evidence of China's concentration camps.

R186 R191 R192 R193 R195 R196 Just haphazardly spamming links about current events now in an attempt to sound informed through repetition and as a substitute for having to make a cogent argument that society and culture haven't radically changed compared with antiquity because this of course is a ludicrous, uninformed sentiment.

Society becomes a little bit more enlightened with each generation, but there are obvious setbacks than can occur in "dark" phases of our trajectory due to inequities and lack of education and critical thought that produces credulous and myopic idiots. R186 is one of them. The Republican Party is the main source of this unenlightenment phase we're in.

[quote] Do they actually teach black history in schools anymore?

They've written the slave trade out of the textbooks though some abolitionists like Frederick Douglass are spotlighted. Some schools do a black history month. The Civil Rights era is typically taught as a short module in the same grade as the Holocaust and then it's on to AP European History if you're lucky.

....

A Daughter Is Beheaded, and Iran Asks if Women Have a Right to Safety

The so-called honor killing of a 14-year-old girl in Iran has shaken the country and forced an examination of its failure to protect women and children.

Video of father beating daughter to death in so-called 'honor killing' sparks protests in Jordan and online "This is not the first time, and it sadly won't be the last," says an activist.

The centuries-old crime of honor killing, stretching back to ancient Rome and present in the Middle East and Latin America, is taking place in America at a rate of more than 20 a year, according to a recent U.S. Justice Department report.

For me personally, I'm gonna keep engaging with other cultures: meeting different people, eating and cooking the food, trying the dances, listening to and playing the music, wearing the clothes... it's a much more bright and beautiful life than the killjoys want us to have. And luckily the majority of people you engage with are going to be made so happy by you doing it, which is wonderful! My best friend once told me: "I never appreciated my own culture until I saw it through your eyes". How fucking awesome is that?

Life can be terrible in so many ways; let's not take the beauty out of it too.

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[quote] For me personally, I'm gonna keep engaging with other cultures: meeting different people, eating and cooking the food, trying the dances, listening to and playing the music, wearing the clothes... it's a much more bright and beautiful life than the killjoys want us to have

Meeting people from other cultures is a good first step towards understanding how truly stupid you sound reciting an imaginary narrative fed to you by bigots who are solely interested in demonizing, mythicizing and exploiting other cultures instead of engaging with them.

Update:

[R186] [R191] [R192] [R193] [R195] [R196] **Now also R198 R199 R201 Just haphazardly spamming links about current events now in an attempt to sound informed through repetition and as a substitute for having to make a cogent argument that society and culture haven't radically changed compared with antiquity because this of course is a ludicrous, uninformed sentiment.

Eh R202, go and have a cry about it. You are so clearly off the mark with who I am, the people I know, and my life situation that you're just making yourself look a fool. It's hilarious. Have a good day.

R204 You're literally in a thread huddled around other aggrieved white people so you can cry together and shout at the wind about how mean and unfair it is for minorities to condemn cultural appropriation and racist stereotyping. You don't care if you're a mob participant, you've heard that other people, somewhere, somehow are trying to prevent you from salsa dancing and goddamnit you're not going to take it lying down

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Update:

[[R186]] [[R191]] [[R192]] [[R193]] [[R195]] [[R196]] **Now also [R198] [R199] [R201] R206 Just haphazardly spamming links about current events now in an attempt to sound informed through repetition and as a substitute for having to make a cogent argument that society and culture haven't radically changed compared with antiquity because this of course is a ludicrous, uninformed sentiment.

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East Asians are accused of CA all the time.

But they don’t buy CA and won’t be shamed by those trying to drag the planet’s winners down.

Losers who’ve created nothing try to drag down those actually creating.

Bitch and moan.

I've noticed that those who insist on criticising people for cultural appropriation are always moving the goalposts. They're desperate to find offense any way they can, and even if they can be shown they're mistaken, rather than admit error they'll then move on to long rants about emotive topics like racism, slavery, genocide etc, because they think no one will then be able to defend themselves without looking awful because they are, to their mind, arguing in favour of racism, slavery, genocide etc. It's a really duplicitous form of argument and is really just the logical fallacy known as 'appeal to emotion' and can therefore be dismissed.

The woman who wrote the original article is actually insane. She constantly creates situations so that she can gripe about them. Has a really annoying voice too.

[quote][Mars] goes on to say that the criticism doesn't anger him, writing it off as a part of his job and saying, "I understand, it's just Twitter, man."

Probably the best way to react to this nonsense.

The English queen is being culturally appropriated

Beyoncé’s Blond Weave