Audrey Hepburn (My Fair Lady) or Dick Van Dyke (Mary Poppins) Who had the better Cockney Accent?

anybody? Saving Mr. Banks is out now

This is a joke, OP, correct?

Van Dyke is notorious in movie history for the worst accent of all time. English actors sneer at Americans or others pulling a "Van Dyke"-- a lame attempt at sounding like a Brit.

I found Audrey a little silly and over the top as Eliza, but charming.

R2 it is no joke. Some would say Hepburn had a bad cockney accent as well.

So who did it worse?

Christ another fucking elder gay boring thread from 100,000 years ago. Who gives a fuck? NO ONE.

R4 Saving Mr. Banks is OUT now detailing the struggles of a Cockney accent.

Dick Van Dyke did have a horrible accent, but he was otherwise charming in the role.

Some critics feel that Audrey is more convincing in the scenes after Eliza's transformation than in the scenes before, but I don't think that's because of her accent. To my ears, her cockney accent is excellent. It sounds as though she worked very hard on it and really got it down.

[quote]To my ears, her cockney accent is excellent.

You're obviously not from London.

Up yours, R9. Having a good ear for these things is more important than actually living in any particular place. P.S. Julie Andrews really struggled with the Cockney accent at first, and in case you didn't know it, she grew up near London.

Hepburn's isn't embarrassing whereas Van Dyke's is.

The riaaaaan in spiiiiiiiiiaan!

[quote]Having a good ear for these things is more important than actually living in any particular place.

If you think Hepburn's accent is even passable then you obviously don't have "a good ear".

Who sang it better, Van Dyke or Hepburn? Oh...wait.

R9 / R11 you obviously DON'T have a good ear for these things - her Cockney accent was bad. Not Van Dyke bad, didn't distract me from the film, but not a Cockney accent. And yes, I have relatives who are Cockneys, born within the sound of Bow Bells and all that, and their accent is a world away from hers, even accounting for the changes in the accent from then until now.

Van Dyke's accent was terrible but I don't mind it, his performance is still charming. Same with Hepburn, still love her in that film.

I would ask you to explain in technical terms what's wrong with her cockney accent, R14, but I'm sure that would be way beyond your abilities. So, instead, maybe you can quote some lines from the movie where you feel the accent is way off. Ready? Go.

Ironically, if anything, I would say that Audrey's accent AFTER Eliza's transformation is somewhat problematic, because that's when her odd pronunciation of some consonants comes out -- for example, "gouldn't" for "couldn't." But you don't hear those odd consonants in the cockney scenes.

Of course, it's easier to forgive Van Dyke's accent for comedic value.

And, since they're both so far off the mark I'd rate Van Dyke's as superior, since we're actually supposed to take Hepburn's seriously - and her whole film is about that accent.

Nowadays, Van Dyke realizes his accent is awful and laughs about it. Does anyone know if Hepburn did?

The movie was set in Warner Brothers-land, not London.

Some of you would argue over dust: "Mine's dustier!!!"

R4, please go have those genital warts on your face checked. They're starting to fester.

Audrey Hepburn was not a native English speaker. The fact that she could even approximate Cockney was impressive.

I don't care what your relatives sounds like, R17. There is more than one type of cockney accent. Plus the fact that, as you said, there have been changes in the accent since the early 1900s, when MY FAIR LADY is set.

On top of everything else, it can be argued that it would have been unwise for anyone to use a 100 percent authentic cockney accent in the film, as the producers would have been worried that some of the lines would be unintelligible to Americans. I suspect that even Stanley Holloway may have tempered his cockney accent somewhat, for precisely reason.

Audrey Hepburn's accent sounds just fine to me -- not 100 percent authentic to the way a London flower girl circa 1912 would have sounded, of course, but pretty damn close, and certainly close enough for a movie that is not a documentary. None of you who argue otherwise have yet to offer any technical explanation of why you think her accent is so bad, or examples of line readings in the movie that you think prove your point.

AWwwwwwwwwwooooh!

"The FAIREST lady of them all returns to the big screen!"

OP, please roll yourself down to the activity room. No one who uses the internet has seen these.

Van Dyke's accent wasn't meant to be authentic, it was meant to be humorous. That's why it's so comically atrocious; it was MEANT to be funny. I don't know why a lot of people don't seem to understand that. I think it's pretty obvious he's not making a serious attempt to create an authentic accent.

I'm not seeing the humor in a deliberately bad accent.

R25 Stop backtracking. You're claiming it was a good accent, then suddenly it's "unwise for anyone to use a 100 percent authentic cockney accent". Also - there is ONE Cockney accent. A Cockney is by definition someone who was born within the sound of Bow Bells - that's a very specific geographic area. There are slightly different accents within London, but as she was meant to be Cockney, and didn't sound anything like it either then or now, then her accent wasn't good.

And as for the "technical explanation" - why don't you go ahead and entertain us with YOUR technical explanation of why her accent was accurate? A short treatise will be sufficient.

A 'technical explanation' isn't required to know when an accent is wrong. You just know it is, without going all Professor Higgins about it. You're wrong, just accept it.

Audrey Hepburn was god awful in My Fair Lady - her cockney accent appalling.

BTW Hepburn spent most of her youth in England so the frauen who are giving her the pass are incorrect re her exposure to the English language.

Dick Van Dyke was OTT - horrific cockney - in Mary Poppins, but at least he wasn't the star of the film. He's irritating yes but no more so than Hepburn.

Audrey used to say that Harrison was so unkind to her during the filming of MFL that he rattled her and made her nervousness about getting the accent right even more difficult.

Oh, it's true: she lived in England from ages 8-10, then moved back after the war at age 19 to study ballet.

Rex was also irritated that Hepburn was paid 1M - he far less.

It was only the second time in history an actress had been paid 1M for one picture. Liz, of course, being the first for Cleopatra.

Van Dyke is STILL the butt of jokes for his absolutely shitty attempt at a cockney accent - almost 50 years later.

R36 is incorrect. Audrey spent more of her youth in England than two years.

BTW she forever travelled with a British passport.

[quote]BTW Hepburn spent most of her youth in England so the frauen who are giving her the pass are incorrect re her exposure to the English language.

As r36 noted, she did not spend most of her youth in England.

I don't particularly like her performance in MFL either. I think that has more to do with Cukor's direction that her personally. I think Cukor was an overrated hack and got worse as he got older.

I saw Dyke Van Dick on a TV show where two young guys made fun of his cockney accent. He didn't react. He was a good sport. But I don't think he liked it.

Lana Turner was given a piece of Imitation of Life, before Cleopatra. And ended upmmaking more than a million.

Audrey was a good sport though to present best Actor to Rex at the Oscars.

He would later thank his TWO Fair ladies in his acceptance speech.

[quote] I don't know why a lot of people don't seem to understand that. I think it's pretty obvious he's not making a serious attempt to create an authentic accent.

I don't know why this is so difficult to understand. It's no different than the weird "pirate" accent everyone who has ever strapped a parrot to his shoulder and slipped on an eyepatch has tried.

I'm not crazy about Dick Van Dyke in Mary Poppins, but you have to give the man credit for doing anything and everything to breath some life into the damned thing. Everyone was playing it stiff as a board while Dick Van Dyke was doing everything short of shoving sparklers up his ass to give it some energy, and that includes the accent.

[quote] No one who uses the internet has seen these.

Saving Mr. Banks is a 2013 release.

I don't think Cukor can be blamed for Hepburn's poor performance. She just wasn't right for the part. She couldn't even sing. Her portrayal of a cockney street girl is nearly a parody.

But the studio got it right. Money being the bottom line, Hepburn certainly sold tickets.

[quote]But the studio got it right. Money being the bottom line, Hepburn certainly sold tickets.

Hence, Carrie Underwood in "The Sound Of Music".

I agree she was miscast, but a better director would have gotten a better performance out of her. I can't put my finger on why I don't like Cukor.

Julie Andrews doing her Cockney accent

Pat would have handled the role properly.

R49, Cukor was famous for his ability to get good performances out of actresses. He may have failed with Audrey but he was well-known in Hollywood for being an "actor's director," particularly with women.

Cukor is a limp-wristed fairy. Directing films is a job for a real man.

I'm not backtracking, R31. I said Audrey's Cockney accent in the film is fine, which is not the same thing as saying it's 100 percent authentic -- because, to repeat, you would never want or expect to have a Hollywood film of an American musical featuring a 100 percent authentic cockney accent.

I don't agree that there's "one Cockney accent." Do you feel that each Cockney person sounds exactly the same as every other? There are variations according to the person's lineage, how much time he or she has spent interacting with other people in other places, how much schooling he or she has had, and so on and so on.

To me, Audrey's speech in the first part of the MFL film displays all the hallmarks of a Cockney accent: dropping the "h" sound sometimes but not always; turning a long "a" sound into more of a long "i" sound; turning a long "o" sound into more of an "ow" sound; pronouncing "th" so that it sounds more like "v,", as in "wivvout" instead of "without," and so on. And, to me, she all makes it sound very natural, but of course, that part of it is truly a matter of opinion.

There's my short treaties. Now, I'll ask you again to explain why you think her accent is so far off the mark. If you're unable to offer a technical explanation, maybe you can at least name some lines in the film where you think she doesn't sound convincingly Cockney. I'm honestly interested in some examples.

Oh for fucks sake give it up R56. You're getting more and more desperate, lying more and more with every post. Your "treaties" (oh dear) isn't the technical explanation you were asked for, the same one you've been demanding from everyone else. Just give it up. For the sake of your blood pressure.

You've been so adamant that AH nailed the accent, then it's "that part of it is truly a matter of opinion." You don't have an ear for accents hon, really.

Oh do shut up, R56! You clearly don't even know what an accent IS, let alone posess the ability to identify one.

Cukor had such a difficult time during the filming with Miss Prisspot, Cecil Beaton, who wouldn't leave Audrey alone. He photographed her at all hours of the day and night until Cukor finally blew a fuse.

Audrey was exhausted, her marriage was disintegrating. Beaton was up Cukor's ass The studio was riding Cukor about costs Kennedy was assassinated thus dampening the spirits of cast and crew

What a delicious kettle of high drama.

[quote] Still waiting for those examples.

Link at R50

R57: I'm not "lying," you offensive turd, and I haven't changed my point since my first post on this subject.

Audrey Hepburn's Cockney accent in MY FAIR LADY is more than close enough to completely accurate for a Hollywood film of an American musical in which the central character is a Cockney. AGAIN, no one would expect to hear a 100 percent accurate Cockney accent in a film like that, for fear that Americans (and maybe even some non-Cockney Brits) wouldn't get some of the lines.

I listed several specific examples of Cockney pronunciations that Hepburn uses in her lines; those are not a matter of opinion. Then I went further and said I think she sounds very natural in her Cockney speech, which IS a matter of opinion. Sorry if you don't understand the difference.

Meanwhile, although I was the first person to ask the rest of you know-it-alls to give examples of lines or words in which you think Hepburn DOES NOT get the accent right, all of you have failed to do so. You think it's sufficient to simply say "her accent is terrible" without explaining WHY.

One of you know-it-alls may have relatives who are authentic Cockney, but that doesn't necessarily mean you have the ability to hear whether Audrey Hepburn's Cockney accent is close to theirs. You may NOT have the ear for that, and even if you do, your opinion is worthless without specific examples to back it up.

P.S. I know how to spell "treatise," you sarcastic twit. It was JUST a typo.

P.P.S. None of what I've written should be taken to mean that I don't wish Julie Andrews had gotten the part over Hepburn, only that Hepburn's Cockney accent is not the problem with her casting or her performance.

Gentlemen gays, please! Don't allow this thread to tear us apart during the holidays!

Audrey stole the part from me, and you won't hear me bitching about her accent! She was delightful.

It's our Savior's birthday!

R62 "close enough to completely accurate" WTF does that even mean? 'close enough' and 'completely accurate' are NOT the same thing. You HAVE changed your tune with each post, and never for the better. You started with "excellent. It sounds as though she worked very hard on it and really got it down" and end with "close enough". I can pronounce th as v all day every day and I still wouldn't sound Cockney, I would sound like Audrey Hepburn.

Hepburn's bad Cockney accent wasn't as bad as Van Dyke's bad Cockney accent but it still wasn't good. If you had ever been to London you wouldn't try to maintain this untenable position. Give it a rest.

My next-door-neighbor was a flower girl in 1911-1912 and SHE says that Audrey was perfect.

So there.

You're a relentless bore, R66. I understand that repetition is often necessary for the mentally challenged to understand a concept, so: Audrey Hepburn's Cockney accent is "excellent" and she did "get in down" in terms of what anyone could reasonably expect or want from a non-Cockney performer playing a Cockney role in a Hollywood film of a Broadway musical that happens to have a Cockney flower girl as its central character.

We could go on and on, but the fact remains that you STILL have not offered a SINGLE EXAMPLE of a pronunciation of Hepburn's that does not sound convincingly Cockney, so there's no point in continuing this torture any further.

Here's what I think this is all about: You have heard other no-nothings criticize AH's accent in MFL, and since you aren't able to think on your own, you guess they must be right. So you hold to that ignorant opinion for dear life and just keep parroting it. But whatever. Happy Holidays!

I don't find either of Hepburn's "accents" very convincing in MFL

I never understood why AH adopted such a peculiar manner of speech in English - publicly and on the screen. All those choked and swallowed consonants. She didn't speak like this in her private life or in other languages.

"I never understood why AH adopted such a peculiar manner of speech in English - publicly and on the screen. All those choked and swallowed consonants. She didn't speak like this in her private life or in other languages.:

It is odd, but I just assumed that was the way she learned how to speak English as a young girl in Holland. Are you sure she didn't pronounce English the same way in her private life?

R61 Yes, I'm quite sure. We were in the same company often here in Switzerland. French was spoken most but she frequently spoke English... mixing languages as Continentals tend to do. In private her pattern of speaking English was quite different from the wide-eyed gamine persona one sees in films and interviews. It was every bit as pleasant - just different,

.

Oh look! R69 learned to clear cookies! There's no need for any specific examples of the bad accent, every word is off, and it's not as though anyone else but you is sad enough to have memorised the whole dialogue. Just Google 'Audrey Hepburn bad cockney accent' and any number of references come up. You're taking it all a bit personally, you just have to accept that you seem to be the only person who thinks she did an 'excellent' accent. It was bad. Just bad.

R69 = R62 with cookies cleared.

R73- Any Audrey anecdotes you care to share? Gossip?

R69 "no-nothings" - oh dear. Is that in the same vein as "It was JUST a typo" you whined about at R62?

So, who had the more authentic period hairdo?

Audrey Hepburn in My Fair Lady

Julie Andrews in Mary Poppins

Barbra Streisand in Hello Dolly (or Funny Girl, take your pick)

Lucy Ball in Mame

Critics in 1964 ripped Van Dyke's rough cockney accent to shreds. "He always said, 'Oh my god, I'm not that great at cockney,'" says Julie Andrews. "But he covered it so wonderfully because he had a wonderful body that was so limber and he had such joie de vivre."

"If you want to nitpick something, no, his cockney was not that good," says Richard Sherman. "So what? He was so wonderful in every other way."

"Doesn't seem to have harmed the film that much, 50 years later," says Andrews with a wink.

Is there really just ONE cockney accent?

After all, even Professor Higgins himself had hundreds of recordings of different accents and dialects, and could nearly tell what block or neighborhoood one was from by a person's pronunciation.

[quote]Is there really just ONE cockney accent?

Yes. Ignore that "Audrey's-accent-was-perfect-but-it-wasn't" troll. A cockney accent comes from a very specific place.

Unlike, say, a Southern Accent, which covers a much larger geographic area and thus is broader. Someone not from the South mightn't be able to pick up the finer nuances that a native speaker would have that could distinguish someone from Alabama from someone from Tennessee.

[quote]After all, even Professor Higgins himself had hundreds of recordings of different accents and dialects, and could nearly tell what block or neighborhoood one was from by a person's pronunciation.

Obviously, creative license was taken.

See also: Mockney

Don't forget me!!

"Oh look! [R69] learned to clear cookies!"

R74, I don't even know what that means as it applies to this thread.

"There's no need for any specific examples of the bad accent, every word is off."

Absolutely. EVERY WORD that Audrey Hepburn speaks as a Cockney in MY FAIR LADY is "off."

"It's not as though anyone else but you is sad enough to have memorised the whole dialogue"

Right. So you can't provide a single example of her terrible accent in the movie.

"You're taking it all a bit personally."

Personally? I'm not Audrey Hepburn, nor a relative or friend of hers. I just don't like uninformed, unsupported criticism. Anyone can say, "So-and-so does a terrible accent in that film," or "So-and-so sings off pitch in that film," but to say something like that without giving a single example carries no weight.

R86 is back using cookies #1.

Is there only one Bronx accent?

And both performers had to work with dialect coaches to master that Cockney Accent.

No they didn't. "Mastering" the accent was never a consideration for either of these roles, especially for Van Dyke. His was very deliberately OTT for comic effect. After all, it's a kid's movie. Hers was meant to be soft and charming, because she's, well, Audrey Hepburn in a light musical.

yeah what about you?

"to my ears, her cockney accent is excellent"

You've never met a Cockney then - I don't know how to describe it, but it isn't Estuary English - it's a smooth accent.

Hepburn does shrill, not smooth... DvD does book-Cockney...

My, people are getting very worked up over this.

As they should R75

can we continue this convo?

[quote]You've never met a Cockney then - I don't know how to describe it, but it isn't Estuary English - it's a smooth accent. Hepburn does shrill, not smooth...

First of all, Hepburn is not "shrill" in all of her Cockney dialogue. And secondly, are you saying a person with a Cockney accent can't have a shrill voice? Weird comment.

You do realize you're responding to someone who posted two years ago, don't you, r78? This thread is dead and no one is interested in it anymore.

Actually, I didn't realize that, R79, but so what? My point still stands. And if "no one is interested" in the thread anymore, why did you respond to it? Damn, some people here are so freaking weird.

Accents for movies are used to make it understandable for the audience. English accents outside out Posh accents are hard to understand. Hollywood is more enthralled with the posh accent then other accents in the UK.

What do you all think of Wendy Hiller's cockney accent in Pygmalion?

And, were several posts deleted up thread so that some posters were referencing posts that hadn't been posted yet? Is that what was meant by "clearing cookies" and just how did that work back in 2013?

Time to bump up another My Fair Lady/Mary Poppins post!

Time to bump this up as Mary Poppins is on TV now

Skip it and watch [italic]Bedknobs and Broomsticks[/italic].

At least this year TCM is offering [italic]Pete's Dragon[/italic] as an alternative. Unfortunately, they're not offering it until December 20 with their four-times-a-year Disney block. There are other films and TV shows, too, all of which are superior to the deplorable waste of Walt Disney's time and money OP mentioned.

Helen Reddy and Bob Hoskins also could manage to sound more believable as Americans than Dick Van Dyke could as a cockney. And though it involved the only character who actually deserved to live dying, Dick's dual role was less impressive than either Hayley Mills slapping herself in [italic]The Parent Trap[/italic], Divine having heterosexual sex with himself in [italic]Female Trouble[/italic], Jim Dale playing three roles in [italic]Hot Lead and Cold Feet[/italic], or Michael J. Fox playing various male and female members of the McFly family in the [italic]Back to the Future[/italic] trilogy. And don't bother pulling the feminist card to defend it; I asked a woman what she thought of this film's treatment of suffragism, and she called it "flippant."

And like it or not, you can no longer deny the people in charge of taking [italic]Song of the South[/italic] away were also enabling sexual harassment by both Harvey Weinstein and John Lasseter. I'm tired of pretending that's part of the problem after the resurgence in bigotry we've seen without the film, the opposite of what they thought would happen.

Van Dyke had the better accent