'Cheers' Reunion: Ted Danson Praises Shelley Long For Show's Success

I agree. In male dominated television, the "Diane Chambers" character was strong, confident and witty.

She had her flaws, but she put "Sam Malone" in his place, each and every single time.

Cheers holds a special place in my heart. It's probably my favorite sitcom ever, along with Seinfeld, and Shelley Long had everything to do with it.

Ted Danson told the truth.

To be honest, the best actors on Cheers were Shelley Long, Kelsey Grammer, Rhea Perlman (hence all the Emmy wins), and Kirstie Alley.

Kirstie was unique because she portrayed a smart, beautiful professional woman, who was a complete and utter failure. And she did it to PERFECTION.

Rhea is so shy and reserved in person, but her "Carla" was so fuckin' nasty and mean!

And Shelley was just the perfect Diane. She became the butt of all jokes in her final season, but she will always be iconic in that role.

And Kelsey was just ... head and shoulders above the rest of the male cast members.

They just don't make shows like "Cheers," anymore.

Shelley Long was the heart and soul of "Cheers." While the entire show and cast of characters were great, Shelley stands out among them all even if Kirstie Alley was fabulous too albeit different and wonderful. Shelley's portrayal of Diane Chambers is most memorable. Nice of Ted Danson to acknowledge and recognize Long.

I also liked Bebe Neuwirth. She created one damn funny character in Lilith.

I know DL has recently discussed Cheers and its 30th anniversary, but it really was a landmark show--one television's best ever. And Shelley Long was largely responsible for its success and why Cheers was so special.

They don't even have opening theme songs on TV shows anymore. The "Cheers" theme of "Everybody Knows Your Name" and the opening theme of "The Mary Tyler Moore Show" all add to what made these shows so memorable and all-time favorites.

If Long was responsible for the shows success, then why did it last for another 7 years after she left?

[quote] then why did it last for another 7 years after she left?

Because it was on the same night as The Cosby Show.

Why are they all so willing to do press for this show all of a sudden? Were they promised a cut of the DVD sales?

R5, Long got the ball rolling and while she left, the show's premise had been set up very strongly by then.

And let's not forget that it became a slightly altered show. The producers changed and the sometimes serious tones were replaced more and more by slapstick and the show became an ensemble rather than players supporting Sam and Diane.

I wasn't able to watch the show regularly until Sam bought the bar back. I hated Evan Drake, hated Rebecca at first, hated how the show had changed...

Rhea Perlman and Shelly Long can't stand one another. Anytime they show up to these reunions, they don't even exchange hellos.

Ted Danson is good within his range, but he's just Sam in everything he does. Now he's Sam on CSI.

I think the Diane years were the best, but the storyline with her had run its course. The reboot did invigorate new life into the show for a couple of years. That being said, it went on too long and the last two years were pretty bad.

It is currently on ME TV and they are in the Kirstie Alley years. It is prior to the show taking a down turn, but the characters are already starting to get more one dimensional and stupid and nasty. By the end the characters were all pathetic and treated each other pretty poorly that you started to think, whey would anyone spend evening after evening here.

The timing also got worse in the final seasons.

The scene when Lilith reveals she'd been having an affair (which was a horrible enough character-killer; if Neuwirth was going to leave, they should have just not had her appear onscreen) is so clunkily directed and, even worse, played for laughs that it was weightless.

And burning the bar down only so it could be rebuilt exactly as it was was another pointless story.

I did like Woody's farce of a wedding, however.

[quote]Rhea Perlman and Shelly Long can't stand one another.

Why?

I remember reading a long time ago that the friction between Shelley and Rhea had more to do with makeup and hair and clothes. Rhea could roll out of bed and report to the set and be ready to go where Shelley was always concerned about looking right as Diane. As a result the shoots took longer because Shelley was always looking to have her hair and makeup freshened up.

I was not a big fan of Woody. When Nicholas Colasanto died, he took a lot of the heart from the show. The episode with coach and his daughter remains one of my favorites.

I did not know that Danson was wearing a hairpiece for the entire run of the show. I was sure all of that was his natural hair and even got into an argument with a friend who insisted he was wearing a "toup."

[quote] Shelley was always looking to have her hair and makeup freshened up.

It was actually more than that. Anytime there was a costume change, Shelly demanded her hair and make-up be re-done, from scratch.

Meaning there would be 90 minutes between scenes just for a simple costume change.

It forced the writers to crank out scripts with no costume changes, so that irked a few people/

Long really carried the first season when the show was struggling ratings wise. She is just flat out hysterical in the first few episodes. I love the episode where she is entered in the Miss Boston Barmaid contest and plans to make an elaborate feminist speech denouncing pagents, but then gets caught up in the excitement of winning a trip to Bermuda.

The first episode I ever saw was when Andy Andy tried to strangle her while they were performing "Othello."

"I love it- a Desdemona that fights back!"

I thought the years with the orginal cast (pre-Fraser) were the best. And yes, Diane was the best character that made the show.

That episode with coach's daughter really is one of the very highest points of the series.

When Coach tells Miss Dipesto that she looks just like her mother and Miss Dipesto struggles to find a way to explain how that makes her feels, she says, "And mom was...never comfortable with her beauty," well that just makes me cry. So incredibly well-written, revealing, and brave.

R17, that is perhaps my favorite episode as well. Shelley Long was fantastic in that.

The first time we met Andy Andy was one of the best Diane episodes. The sight of Diane coming back to the bar after their date with her hair all fucked up from riding on the back of Andy Andy's motorcycle is memorable.

Diane: "Excuse me while I go and scrape the bugs off of my teeth!"

Andy Andy: "Do you ever dream you have claws?"

I never watched this show.

I loved it in the 80s, but I don't think it holds up that well.

Shelley Long was great on the show. There were two sides of her split with the cast.

She is a smart person, really, and had great comic talent and was a good dramatic actress. She got the Emmy right out of the gate, got a lot of attention and thought she could go beyond the show. Of course that didn't sit well with people, especially those who thought she thought she was smarter than everyone else.

Roger Rees has said quite openly that the rest of the cast got along really well but were often completely crude and often unprofessional. They showed up late, joked around, didn't run lines, weren't interested in talking much about characters and such and wanted just to do their thing. He said he heard that as they got past Season 3, Shelley was always apart from that bunch, especially after Colasanto died, as he was very much like Coach on the show in his relationship to Diane, very sweet to Shelley, always making her feel included, happy to be working and professional. Grammer had drug problems early in the show, Perlman and Harrelson were cutups, and so on. Shelley's character was serious, had a lot of neuroses that had to be explained beyond her animal attraction to Sam Malone -- she wanted to do it seriously, to work with the writers (and sometimes would question the writers)... the rest of the cast just wanted to have fun.

Rees said that he and Neuwirth often would sit and wait for the cast to get it together at every rehearsal -- which often never happened as the show wore on -- and Shelley had the same problem, but Shelley seemed to take it more personally.

I'm sure there are two sides of the story.

Unfortunately this clip gets cut off before it gets to its best part... (Diane starts to get reallu upset because Sam hit her, he tells her "not as hard as I wanted to" and she starts to cry and says if she walks out the door, she's never coming back... He just stands there and sighs). The tension in that moment was so real, it was pitch perfect.

But watch the start of the clip... about :25 in she tells Sam she told herself "I've said to myself one day we were going to get down to the real you, well we did it..." She gets it just right... angry, sad, with contempt...

The emotion coming from Danson is just as real... hurt, angry, but even a sense of knowing she's right, and it gets him.

They brought out the best in each other.

By the way, R20, here's the clip of Coach and his daughter...

"You're the most beautiful kid in the whole world."

Heartbreaking.

Rees is completely validated as all you have to do is remember the cast's drunken behavior on Leno the night of the final episode.

The weird thing about that show's success was that it had two parts: (1) it had brilliant writing and a few brilliant comic actors (Long, Grammar, Neuwirth, Harrelson, and sometimes Danson and Alley) who could really make their lines sparkle with brilliant delivery; (2) it had some very appealing "ordinary guy" actors (Danson and Alley when they were not at their best, Perlman, Wendt, Ratzenberger, Colosanto) who had lovable personae and could make the audience feel very comfortable. It sort of cut across the lowbrow and highbrow divide (in part because that's what the show was about).

I agree Long was the original standout character that showed how good the writing could be; she is an oddly limited actress, however, and her unusual physical type (very skinny with giant doe eyes) made it hard to cast her later--and she got typecast in spoiled or pretentious parts. It's been sad to see her flail about somewhat professionally because I always felt if she could have avoided being typecast she would have been terrific: she was wonderful; in NIGHT SHIFT, for example, before she played the Diane role, but after playing Diane she never got to play something like a prostitute again.

Grammar and Harrelson did extremely well for themselves afterwards, as did Neuwirth (albeit in theatre) because they have so much genuine talent. Danson coasted pretty much on the love people had for him and for the Sam character: he's not a terribly talented actor, though he's also not bad. Ratzenberger has a great voice and has had some success as a voice actor. Perlman and Wendt completely lucked into great characters on the show, but since they have the least talent they've not been able to do much afterwards.

I though Shelley Long was dead. They should put her in something.

My God, I forgot how handsome Ted Danson was back then. He rang my pre-teen bell.

[quote]I thought Shelley Long was dead. They should put her in something.

Formaldehyde?

I thought Diane Chambers was one of the most annoying, unbearable characters ever to appear on a tv sitcom. I never bought the Sam/Diane relationship. Sam was a good-looking, good-natured guy; why would he want to hook up with the stuck up, twitchy, VERY fucked up Diane? I mean there she was, with all her education/intelligence and her condescending attitude and her snotty ways...and she was a BARMAID. Just like the uneducated, blue collar, perpetually pregnant Carla. Why on earth did Sam want to be with the bitch? She wasn't drop-dead gorgeous or anything; why did he put up with her crazy shit? I know it was a comedy, but even in a comedy show you expect tihngs to make a little bit of sense.

r33, it's called dramatic license. Suspension of disbelief for comic effect. It would not have been the least bit funny had Sam Malone just had a continued string of big plastic tittied, blonde bimbo girlfriends. That is a dull cliche. Diane Chambers rocked his world. Called him out on his shit. Was NOT interested in him, at first. And remember, Sam also RAN A BAR. His playing days were behind him. He likely would have hooked up with the women who were IN the bar or around it. Diane was pretty, she was not a dog. She just was not a "Candy" or a "Nicole" with double D's and no brains. Also, if you watched the show, Sam was not the total "smooth operator" that he and his bar buddies made him out to be. He was kind of clutzy and dorky, at times, with women. His posturing jock behavior was a screen for his vulnerability, which made him likeable. He was arrogant but he was kind of a mess underneath. (This is not unlike the Carrie Heffernon character from The King of Queens. She was a bossy "bitch" but was really goofy and vulnerable beneath the surface.) The sparring between Diane and Sam made perfect sense in context when you understood the characters.

The film that Diane edited to send to Woody's folks remains a favorite.

I don't think that it's far off that a guy like Sam would go for a neurotic 'challenge' like Diane. People get easily bored with things that take no effort to accomplish (like Sam getting laid with braindead bimbos). Some people want exitement in their life and subconsciously resent a safe and easy routine (= boredom).

I thought Danson was great on the first season of Damages. Though I was probably the only person that saw it.

Alan Autry as Sam's former teammate was so hot in that episode when Sam finds out he's gay.

[quote]I mean there she was, with all her education/intelligence and her condescending attitude and her snotty ways...and she was a BARMAID.

For some people, education/intelligence is a desirable quality. Not everyone is interested in people in terms of what jobs they hold.

She was a grad student in anthropology as well, I believe. She saw the bar as one big learning experience- at first at least.

Damn, she looks better than she has in 15 years in that pic.

Good on ya Ted Danson.

R33. Shelley Long's character was supposed to be that way. She played it perfectly.

But the humor and rationale of Sam and Diane's relationship was that she was indeed a bit uppity and book-smart, but actually, she was sort of a loser like the rest of the characters. She couldn't or didn't succeed in her own profession (whatever that was). And she wasn't street-smart enough to really make it in the big bad world.

So the humor came from her "lording" over everyone in a place she really didn't belong, as well as acting superior because Long's character was indeed intelligent among a bunch of neanderthals. She could make fun of them--and they could make fun of her. And that's what sustained the show and her relationship with others in the bar--and with Sam.

And then there's always the cat and mouse--and animal attraction Sam and Diane had toward one another that for at least five years made for "must-see," funny television.

Didn't Long attempt suicide a few years ago after her film career bombed?

By the way, Shelley was fabulous and funny in "Troop Beverly Hills."

A guilty pleasure of mine.

[quote]I thought Diane Chambers was one of the most annoying, unbearable characters ever to appear on a tv sitcom.

Finally someone said it. She sounds like a bitch, too.

Exactly, R43, This is summed up in the episode when they go to the opera and Diane is trying to educate them and then the camera pans over all the guys asleep to... Diane, who is also asleep.

Wow, some of you bitches really loved this show. I barely knew it existed until this thread.

[quote]In male dominated television, the "Diane Chambers" character was strong, confident and witty.

Bitch, please. We beat her to the punch by a decade.

[quote]she was sort of a loser like the rest of the characters. She couldn't or didn't succeed in her own profession (whatever that was).

Diane never really had one. She was an English-lit grad student when the show started and fucking one of her professors, who ended up dumping her to get back together with his ex. Since she couldn't face the "humiliation" of returning to grad school, she started working at Cheers.

Btw I'm also not getting all the Diane love. I always thought she was an uptight cunt, frankly (on the show *and* in real life, as demonstrated by quitting with delusions of film fame in her head).

A grad student? Wasn't Shelley Long like 35 years old when Cheers started?

Diane was 28

The show went downhill after Shelley left.

Shelley/Diane was the best. Her relationship with Sam was an opposites attract, addictive ying and yang and very funny.

Kirstie was very funny too; she was just different; the chemistry was different. Her relationship with Sam was more two of a kind.

R40 - Literature was Diane's field

R54- Rebecca would have been a great foil for Sam if they kept her original character (savvy business woman), but they made her into a laughingstock.

r48, bitch, do tell us what you follow so we can predict how it will hold up for future generations

R34, for the record "suspension of disbelief" doesn't work when it requires one to suspend their disbelief beyond all boundaries of credibility. It's a subtle, inherent component of how people experience dramatic writing (whether comedy or drama), not a get out of jail free card for lazy, uninspired writers. In fact, if you have to reference "suspension of disbelief" you've probably already failed. People are either willingly engaged by your premise or they're not. Using the phrase "suspension of disbelief" doesn't change that. Nor does it make you a better writer.

If Shelley Long was so great in Cheers why did her departure leave such a stink on her? I never watched Cheers but I assume she was playing Diane in Outrageous Fortune which is the only thing besides Modern Family I've ever seen her in.

It seemed like the press and public were hoping she'd fall on her face after leaving "Cheers." I don't know if people conflated Long with the character of Diane or if Long had been coming off unlikeable in interviews at the time or if people were just angry she was leaving a favorite show. But there was definitely a lot of schadenfreude when her film career failed to take off.

Everyone has seen her in The Brady Bunch movies...

Life has been hard for Shelley also take in account when women get to be a certain age in Hollywood its over plus so many TV actors have a hard time making it in movies(if that was the real reason she left). Since the show was over no one has any kind words about Shelley maybe Ted has trying to change that...

Hollywood is especially hard on female actors who try to crossover from TV to the big screen. Not that guys like David Duchovny or David Caruso had it easier.

That movie she did with Bette Midler called Outrageous Fortune is a guilty plesure of mine.

R27, thanks for posting that clip of Coach and his daughter. Well done! Wasn't that Alice Beasley from "Moonlighting"?

I thought the transition from Diane to Rebecca was one of the few times a show successfully managed a major casting change and then managed to improve or at least hold. Rebecca and Diane couldn't have been more different. Most creative teams would have settled for a lookalike Diane2.

63 posts and barely one mention of Woody Harrelson?! He was so hot back then! Is this really a gay board?

R59, I think there was a lack of understanding at the time about how difficult it is to do a primetime show while raising young children.

[quote] how difficult it is to do a primetime show while raising young children.

A sitcom is the best schedule for a working mom.

The hours are basically 9 to 5, with the exception of Friday which is tape night. That is a 12 hour day.

You also get the last week off of every month. 3 weeks on, 1 week off.

She only had one child when she was doing Cheers. Plus this was filmed at Paramount, which had a daycare center for moms like her, Rhea Perlman and Meredith Baxter.

I like older, shaved head Woody better.

"Diane was 28."

HAH! She looked at least mid-thirties.

Diane's hair and clothes didn't scream "youth."

I loved watching Diane. She would have been impossible to deal with in real life, but that can be hilarious on screen (like Woody Allen & Bugs Bunny).

And I loved Lilith for the same reason, though her dreadful traits were quite different from Diane's.

Brilliant writers for both of those characters, matched with the perfect actresses.

I wonder if Shelley Long has enough to live on? It's been a long time since she's really worked, isn't it?

She was on an episode of A.N.T. FARM that my nieces were watching. I felt bad for Shells.

Danson's a class act.

Alley's Rebecca rejuvenated the show.

Diane may have been in her twenties, but Shelley had just turned 33 when the show premiered.

I loved Bebe Neuwirth as Lilith. What a unique character she was, and Neuwirth was pitch-perfect.

I haven't watched an episode of Cheers in years and years, and this thread is making me want to check out a couple to see if it still holds up. I'm sure it does - from what I remember, the writing was a lot smarter than sitcom writing is today.

I'm old enough to remember when Shelley Long quit Cheers and it was a major news story...the show was that big at the time. I know that doesn't seem like much now, but in those days entertainment news didn't really get covered in the mainstream media, it had to be a big deal for network news to cover something about Hollywood. Total opposite of today.

I don't remember what episode it was or even the complete dialogue but Lilith is getting some pictures taken and she says to the photographer, "and please do something about the lighting, I always to tend to be terribly pale in photographs." Just brilliant!

Ted Danson needs to have his ass spanked.

r58 Shelley's departure left a "stink" BECAUSE her character was that important to the show. The reason people tuned in week to week was of course because the show succeeded in ways Taxi had tried in the Happy Days/Three's Company... It was written for adults, and people who were educated could enjoy the show, get the references, and laugh at themselves.

Diane-Sam was the love story on TV that people wanted to see resolve. Diane was also the character that was the vehicle for bringing a moral point of view into the bar, as well as all the more elevated humor. That fell to Frasier and Lilith when she left, and as a result it became a secondary part of the show.

It was a rare show in the 80s and people were sad to wonder how it would go on. The writers and Kirstie Alley did a great job for the first three years to keep it going, but it was very much Cheers II ... never the same.

The good news is we got Frasier out of it, which was even better.

For R71:

Hollywood is also harder on females who have opinions. Shelley's big crime was wanting to turn out the best product she could. But the results more than vindicated her protracted creative process.

She also seems to have taken the creative process seriously. Cheers was not there as a place to get together and party with her friends.

She was involved in turning out a great product. Party girl idiots like Perlman and Grammer resented her because they knew she was the only reason they had a job.

[quote]It's been a long time since she's really worked, isn't it?

She plays the Pritchards' Mom/ex-wife on Modern Family.

[quote] Perlman and Grammer resented her because they knew she was the only reason they had a job.

How is that a reason to resent someone?

With Perlman and Long, I wonder if it is simply that they were so different (like their characters) that they rubbed each other the wrong way. That tends to build up over five years.

The very first episodes they did play up Long being younger than Sam, and she was also portrayed being more naive and innocent and optimistic. She was a contrast to the people in the bar. Sam was also not quite as dumb.

R84, it would be good for the bank account while it's hard on the ego.

Is it true that Frasier's agent Bebe, played by Harriet Harris, was named after Bebe Newirth because Kelsey and the writers hated Bebe so much on Cheers?

IIRC it took several years before they brought Newirth onto Frasier to make a guest appearance.

R87, it more like half of the first season. Lilith was on Frasier about once a season, give or take an appearance.

Interesting that Grammar had some friction with both Long and Bebe. I liked Fraiser, but I always disliked the sweeps arcs where he would find his great love with some multi-episode guest star. They always seemed so forced and false. The only characters/actresses I felt he sparked any romantic chemistry with were Lilith and Diane.

R87 your memory is definitely faulty. Out of eleven seasons, Lilith was featured in nine of them, and R88 is correct this started early in the second half of season 1. There were gaps in her appearances in her run during Chicago and appearances in Fosse and her own TV show during the later years, but a "Lilith" episode was a constant for that show.

As for her friction with Grammer, he was a mess and still is. He was a hard-core alcoholic and on cocaine during the run of Cheers, and Shelley and Bebe both were the ones that had to not only work opposite him, and put up with all the production delays and his temper tantrums and nuttiness, but that had to affectionate to him. Considering how much shit both of them take for being bitchy and cold, the fact that they tolerated it and made it work -- with chemistry as R89 says -- is credit to their professionalism and their talent as actors.

Look at how great Bebe and Kelsey were together from the very first episode of Cheers...

I put the last clip up at R90, and should have put this up first....

Frasier and Lilith first realize their attraction... on TV...

[quote]Wow, some of you bitches really loved this show. I barely knew it existed until this thread.

You aren't missing anything. It's a highly ovverrated show that does not hold up well at all.

For r81 and r82:

Václav Havel said, "Bring me a dissident and I'll show you someone who tried to do a good job."

I grew up watching Cheers in reruns and I wanted to be Diane Chambers. Explains alot nowdays.

[quote]The good news is we got Frasier out of it, which was even better.

R79. I disagree. 'Frasier' was good, maybe very good, but not better than 'Cheers,' especially not better when Shelley Long was on 'Cheers."

I agree, R95. Frazier often bored the hell out of me. Cheers never did.

Did Sam and Rebecca ever sleep together?

Yes, r97. In one of the later seasons there was an awful extended plotline where Sam and Rebecca were trying to have a baby.

I recently watched the last few episodes of season five (on the Hallmark Channel), and then I forced myself to watch the first episode after Shelley's departure, as I've never seen it. Cheers became a completely different show without her, and that show really sucked. I can't believe that went on for six more seasons. The character of Sam Malone lost his charm instantaneously and he became a one-dimensional, dumb and boring character. I suspected it would be, but the new Cheers was just awful.

Shelley and Kirstie were both good. What was great was how Cheers handled the transition.

I didn't like Cheers for a while after Shelly left but I thought the last few seasons were terrific. Once they decided that Kirstie didn't work as the straight man and made her character a big colossal fuck-up, she was great.

I watched the show from time to time after Shelley left but I thought Kristie Alley was too annoying. The show lost the chemistry it began with Sam, Diane and Coach.

[quote] If Long was responsible for the shows success, then why did it last for another 7 years after she left?

As is the case with most sitcoms that make the main characters hook up and then eventually marry, Cheers was going the route of the dinosaur. Where do you go from there?

Shelley's exit breathed new life into the show, and I give credit to Kirstie Alley for the extra seven years.

As it was pointed out, she played her character flawlessly. I love that Rebecca character so much. A professional, put together exterior, with a "hot mess" of an interior. Love it.

[quote] Rees said that he and Neuwirth often would sit and wait for the cast to get it together at every rehearsal -- which often never happened as the show wore on -- and Shelley had the same problem, but Shelley seemed to take it more personally.

I can completely believe this.

Bebe is just a pro. So is Shelley. But Bebe seems to be more of a "team player," as evidenced by her cheeky sense of humor.

By the time she left the show, I'm guessing that Bebe was over it. Shelley probably didn't have the patience.

[quote] Alan Autry as Sam's former teammate was so hot in that episode when Sam finds out he's gay.

Cheers was way ahead of it's time in numerous ways.

It did a number of gay-themed shows, and Shelley's liberal slant really helped.

Nobody else on television was tackling gay issues, so the fact that Cheers took it on, and was PRO GAY, is HUGE for the 1980's.

[quote] Shelley/Diane was the best. Her relationship with Sam was an opposites attract, addictive ying and yang and very funny.

Her final season was the best. Thanksgiving Orphans, etc.

The Simon Fitzroy character played by John Cleese summed up their relationship perfectly.

She flat out asked him, "but what about the theory that opposites attract?" To which he replied, "ah, the refuge of the truly desperate!"

This show had excellent writing.

[quote] If Shelley Long was so great in Cheers why did her departure leave such a stink on her?

Same reason David Caruso failed after leaving his hit show.

The public doesn't like "uppity" actors.

[quote] I loved Bebe Neuwirth as Lilith. What a unique character she was, and Neuwirth was pitch-perfect.

Her character is probably my favorite of all Cheers characters.

She was supposed to be so tightly wound and straight-laced, but "Lilith" had this hard edge and dry humor that never failed to crack me up.

My favorite episodes were the Nanny G, where she physically fought with Emma Thompson, and then this one which really made use of her Broadway background. This never fails to crack my shit up!

I'm with R1. Cheers and Seinfeld were the best sitcoms ever. Smart, sophisticated humor.

Cheers writers were something special, and it always haunts me to see the name "David Angell" in the credits, knowing that he died on one of the planes that crashed into the Twin Towers on 9/11. What a tragedy.

I still watch the re-runs of Cheers on Hallmark Channel. It's a good reminder of how smart tv shows used to be.

So many terrific episodes of Cheers.

Coach and his daughter, Miss Boston Barmaid with Shelley, Thanksgiving Orphans, Rebecca and "Martin" the short corporate exec, Nanny G, Woody's wedding, the grand finale, and of course... Diane's exit.

That final scene with the song "What'll I Do?" being played on piano, always makes me emotional.

Lilith and Nanny G. Freakin' hilarious.

Diane Chambers was a wonderful character for the show. Shelley and Ted worked very well together.

I also loved the triangle once Kelsey joined.

Coach was an important supporting character.

The Shelley Long episodes were the best. It took Kirstie Alley awhile to fit in. Evenually she did a some good work.

Kirstie Alleys's character sucked donkey balls.

Danson is right.

[quote]Kirstie Alleys's character sucked donkey balls.

I agree. She was basically just playing herself - an annoying, crazy bitch.

Agreed, R103. If you watch the tail end of the clip, Danson breaks at her delivery of 'Always leave them wanting more.' She was hilarious.

So, if Shelley didn't get along with Rhea Perlman OR Bette Midler, was there a trend? Was Shelley maybe a bit too waspy?

Bebe was awesome, even from her first appearance.

She freakin' nailed it!

[quote]Everybody, I'd like you to meet my date, Dr. Lilith Sternin, MD PhD EdD APA.

R113 That was one of my favorite jokes on the show!

Sorry to bump an old thread, but I have today off and was bored and was searching DL's archive and somehow stumbled upon this thread which was a very enjoyable read.

Furthermore, I for one didn't care for the Rebecca character. She was such a bitch, gold-digger, and too whiny and a cry-baby by the end. Diane's only crime was her pretentiousness. However, she was a very kind and empathetic/sympathetic person. She was always willing to help out others, including the undesirables like Cliff, and was overall quite positive. But Rebecca treated Cliff and Norm like shit and sometimes made Woody cry. I hated her seasons!

Cheers in general got more mean-spirited the last few years. Cliff was always the butt of jokes throughout, but in later years you got the impression that no one really liked each other. Carla went from being a good foil for Diane to simply being a mean bully. I thought the Rebecca years had some good shows (at least the first few years), but it became less and less of a place I would want to hang out in real life. Everyone knew your name and sneered it with a bit of hate....

The early seasons of "Cheers" have that same warm feeling that the early years of "The Mary Tyler Moore Show" have.

You really feel like something genuine is going on, and that's thanks to both great performances and to James Burrows, the director of both, who always made sure to include plenty of realistic "business" for the actors. For instance, coming in and hanging up a coat, which lots of shows ignore. They paid attention to seasons and weather and all of the normal things people do in their homes or at work. The bar at "Cheers" and Mary's first apartment on "MTM" seemed like places where I could actually walk in and sit down and interact with Rhoda or Diane or Coach.

I always loved the one where Diane urged the gang to join her at the opera - they all fell sleep including Diane ..... wasn't Diane a fantastic bowler - or was that a Sugarbaker? .... LOVED Andy, Andy .... odd how more than 20 years later I remember Woody's KellyKelly, Kelly song.

[quote]wasn't Diane a fantastic bowler

It was her phy ed credit in college, because she thought she could read in between frames.

What I love about the first season is that they never left the bar. Just one big set. It almost felt like a play in that regard.

Thank you 119 - Diane's bowling was nestled far back in my increasingly addled brain!

I knew tons of Dianes in Boston, but Rebecca was pure LA, so never fit.

R122 ironic you say that, because Kirstie Alley and the character of 'Rebecca Howe' both fit in nicely on/at Cheers. She was one of the guys. However, I preferred Diane's fish-out-of-water sensibilities. That was entertaining to watch.

Julia Duffy was considered for Diane.

That would have been interesting.

Shannel from Ru Season 1 always reminded me of Kirstie Alley

Frasier was originally written with John Lithgow in mind.

I remember an interview with Kelsey Grammar when he was asked about his relationship with Shelley Long. This was long after she had left Cheers. He said that the reason he didn't get along with her was because during a meeting with producers, she said she thought Cheers would be better if the character of Frasier was written out of the show. And Kelsey was sitting right there in the meeting.

He was a huge cokehead and worse. In sure she wanted him gone.

Ted Danson's a class act.

R127 better than talking behind his back, I think. At least, that how I'd prefer it. Granted, that's something nobody wants to hear, especially a working actor, but I'd rather people tell me in person, face to face.

I liked Frasier, but it did seem a bit forced that he was hanging out there after he broke up with Diane (and prior to that he was basically a plot device to keep Sam an Diane apart). He did not fully come into his own until after she left.

R131 good point. The Frasier of the Diane years would never have been offered a spin-off.

Harry Morton on The Jack Benny Show was almost exactly Fraiser.

I skip the diane years, hate kirstie but loved the mess Rebecca Howe.

Just out of curiosity, does Shelley Long have some sort of a lesbian voice? Or is it just bisexual voice? In any case I find it extremely attractive. It's rather sinsong, too.

I've always liked Diane's voice, but I never thought she sounded particularly 'lezzy.' It's very feminine, in fact. Then again, I can't differentiate between lesbians, unless they're bulldykes or something.

I thought she was a pill.

The Sam/Diane actors evidently came down to three pairs of actors: Ted/Shelley, William Devane/Lisa Eichhorn, and Fred Dryer/Julia Duffy. In retrospect, it would've been tough to see those other two pairs working out.

Never heard of Devane/Eichhorn, but Dryer and Duffy both got great consolation prizes immediately afterward. Dryer got HUNTER, which ran for 7 seasons, and Duffy did NEWHART, which lasted 8 seasons. She was also Emmy-nominated for every season.

I tend to prefer bisexual women, and Diane's voice sounds very attractive to me, that's all I can say. But I can't really define "lesbian voice" either.

One of my favorite post-Diane episodes was the last one of S7, "The Visiting Lecher"... Frasier's older colleague puts the moves on Rebecca. It culminates with a great farce scene in a hotel room, stolen by the divine Joanna Barnes as the "scariest bitch you'd ever wanna meet". Kirstie Alley was fantastic...she played nuts well. Hmm.

It's hard watching CHEERS knowing what a loon Alley turned out to be, and also now we know what a creep Grammer is.

For some reason, I always found Grammer very creepy. Never liked him. Never understood the appeal. And I must have been like 13 the first time I saw him.

That episode was one of Alley’s best, R141. Only the one where she gets drunk before her wedding to Robin Colcord might feature a funnier performance by her.

And John McMartin was great in it. The episode was originally written so that John Cleese could reprise his role, but I can’t imagine it being better with him instead of McMartin.

I adored BEBE in Cheers and on Frasier. Seeing her in The Addams Family musical is a highlight of my theater going life. I wish I could have seen her in something better, but those gams!

I love Broadway actresses who take televisions roles. I lived for Kelly Bishop in Gilmore Girls; the only reason to watch that shit!

Good for Ted.

He should have said, "This is everybody's opinion EXCEPT Rhea Perlman's!"

Rhea Perlman got Jerry Gold fired.

The tragedy of Long is that she left Cheers to focus on her film career when she actually had a bigger movie career during the run of the show with movies such as Night Shift, Irreconcilable Differences, The Money Pit, and Outrageous Fortune...

I don't think it was a tragedy. Long was going to have a difficult time maintaining her career anyway. She got in her own way too much. Staying longer on Cheers wouldn't have rid her of that tendency.

I would have loved to see her tackle projects such as Serial Mom or The Contender

Enjoying the Diane love. The show thrived on social classes talking past one another. For some reason, the intellectuals (Diane, Frasier, Lilith) are more memorable -- maybe because the jokes were mainly at their expense. Carla was the best of the blue-collar characters.

The first season is funny from the first frame to last.

Didn’t watch it as a kid, but those scripts are tight.

I like that they never once leave the bar in the first season. All the action occurs there or just outside.

I didn’t realize Danson wore a toupee from the start watching as a kid, but now I can’t not see it if I catch the old reruns late at night

The show would have sucked if she'd stayed longer. They were running out of plot lines for her. even the relationship with Frasier was over---Lillith was a better foil.

I liked the Diane years better, but that story line was played out and the cast change gave it another three or four years of life. Sadly, I think it went six more years, the last couple were pretty painful. Everyone was so one dimensional and mean the last couple of years. They all hated each other - their ribbing was more venomous the good-natured. Sam's IQ also dropped about 25 points each season.

The episode where Diane is in the Miss Boston Barmaid contest is just perfection. She is with all these bimbo like girls and at first can't seem to compete in the looks department but she just charms the judges with this speech about not being perfect so that she wins. Her plan is to denounce the pageant on live TV while being crowned but instead she starts screaming and jumping for joy when she wins a trip to Bermuda.

If I remember correctly she does the speech with a nervous tic and ends up quoting Scarlet O'Hara.

One of my favorite episodes from the season is when Sam ends up setting her with murderer "Andy Andy". You hired a murderer to go out with me.

The best Andy Andy episode, though, was the one where Diane stages Othello with him, “Homicidal Ham.” I think the second season was probably their best, and the season finale has one of the greatest scenes in all of television. Long and Danson have to do high drama and slapstick from moment to moment, and both work.

A Desdemona that fights back!

There season 2 break-up was pretty intense and they both nailed the scene.

[quote] and the season finale has one of the greatest scenes in all of television.

I can't remember that scene. Any more info?

Always leave them wanting more...

R161, their break-up when Sam confronts Diane about going behind his back to get her portrait painted. It’s an argument that descends into actual fighting (she slaps him, he slaps back, to her surprise), and they end up pinching each other’s noses like children. A lot of it plays like the typical Sam and Diane fight, but it has a lot more weight (Long plays it wearily, as if Diane’s just going through the motions in her insults, and can’t even finish one), it goes to some really dark places, and yet it still gets laughs.

Definitely the Diane years are better. Watching it in first run episodes, I thought Kirstie Alley was a good replacement, and she did work a lot better than other shows' attempts to replace characters. But watching it back in syndication, I think the Diane years hold up a lot better. Once I get to the Kirstie Alley years, I lose interest.

And yes, the last two seasons were dreadful. Not a surprise. So many shows stay too long at the party. The actors were raking it in and Cheers was still a Top 10 show even in its final season, so they continued on. In fact, the only reason it ended was because Ted Danson decided to call it quits.

I think this is basically right after the slap fest. Sam's tone gets pretty dark as well. It is a pretty realistic break-up;

R164, a lot of the final two seasons didn’t work, but I still love the Woody-Kelly wedding. It almost felt like a dry run for the farces that “Frasier” did so well.

I just started rewatching on Netflix thanks to this thread. Diane was really the best character. Rebecca was a good replacement but the chemistry with Sammwsnt there.

They just can't moderate their adoration about Lilith.

[quote]Once I get to the Kirstie Alley years, I lose interest.

I'm the same. In general, I hate it when shows suddenly shift gears after a few seasons (e.g., WEEDS, ROSEANNE, GLEE, ALLY MCBEAL) and bring on new characters and possibly locales. I've never finished the aforementioned shows, because I stopped watching shortly after the shift occurred.

Watching on Netflix. My favorite years were with Diane/Coach. Coach was the heart of Cheers and the tone of the show started to change in S3 when he wasn't on as much. I can't believe they didn't dedicate an entire episode to his passing. Watching now, I do double take that Diane was a college girl. She looked mid 30s, so the whole college thing and all the majors to find her niche was questionable. I like the post upthread that said in the end, Diane was as big of a loser as the rest of the gang. There are a few episodes where Diane couldn't find another job that were unbelievable. She was well spoken and smart, yet she had to be a checker at a grocery store? That didn't ring true at all. What would have rang true is her working as a waitress because that's where the money is. I think she also stayed because she liked the air of superiority. Plus, Sam was there, that point was brought up several times by him on why she was still there. I've noticed that Diane and Sam weren't even romantic most of the time, just a lot of acidic banter, but holy shit did they have incredible chemistry! Danson is right, that is what got them the parts. It's hard to watch knowing they don't end up together. The creators felt it wasn't realistic because they were too opposite. I say, it's a show! It wasn't realistic that she even worked there for 5 years or that the gang spent morning, noon and night there. It wasn't realistic that Frasier kept hanging around after he was dumped or even at all. I think the fact that she and Sam were both still single after 6 years says that no one else was right for them. They were one of the best small screen couples of all time. So for them not to end up together is criminal.

I do wonder what the show would have been like had Long stayed. It was a good thing that they rushed the romance since she ended up leaving. However, by doing that the romance was becoming exhausted by S5. How many times did Diane leave the bar only to come back? Now that I think about it, it was every season she was as on! They couldn't keep doing that and do the on/off again. If she stayed, I think it would have been good to have them marry and see that dynamic play out. The could've ended the show earlier as well. Rebecca was ok, but I disagree with the post above. Iron Lady boss wouldn't have worked for 6 seasons. Diane was employee, so that fish out of water character worked. Rebecca as boss would always be an outsider if she remained aloof. I'm just happy they didn't try to recreate another romance for Sam.

They all contributed, but Shelly was the female lead so she deserves a good deal of the credit. And she left the show indicating she was the breakout star, although that turned out to be Woody in the long run.

I detest Kirstie Alley (a Trump-supporter, btw) and once her era began, only watched the show *despite* her. Although they did hire Kirstie to play the ball-busting bitch and she was only doing what they wanted.

Was Shelly that bad? It sounds like she was just being professional. I read that Kelsey Grammar said she tried to get him fired, but not the version upthread. Long said that when she got pregnant they were considering writing it into the show and have Frasier be the father. Long wasn't having it. She thought Diane and Sam belonged together and having Frasier be the father was wrong. Word got back to Grammar and he thought she was trying to get him fired. Rhea Perlman sounds worse, she actually did get Jay Thomas fired.

Fun fact I never knew, Jason Sudeikis is George Wendt's nephew.

I don't know if Shelly tried to get Kelsey fired, but I do remember something about her complaining he got too many funny lines.

Shelly said she was treated as an outsider by the rest of the cast. They treated her as if she really was Diane Chambers. And even then, I never thought the hostility towards Ms. Chambers was warranted. Diane was the only true liberal who worked there, it was always up to her to stand up for gays, etc.

The Diane/Shelly Long seasons were better than the Rebecca seasons. The Diane character made Cheers popular with a wider audience (smarter). Dumb people could like the Diane character because she was always being taken down several pegs.

Shelly Long was a real-life outcast amongst the other actors. Woody Harrelson was decent to her, though.

It's understandable that she resented Kelsey Grammer. It's already such a large ensemble in a 20-minute show. Any time you add another popular character, everybody else's screen time is cut.

R2170, the writers were fuzzy about Diane’s age, but she wasn’t a college student. She was a grad student who never left higher education and had no real-world job experience.

I think Diane began the series in her early 30s, Long’s age at the time.

That's right, R177. S1 the running joke was about her constantly changing her major. Someone upthread said she was supposed to be 28, though I don't remember her age ever being given. I wish they would have delved into why Diane couldn't leave higher education and stayed working at Cheers. I actually do know people like this, but I can't relate at all. She was all about therapy so it was odd it wasn't brought up too much.

Why did her career stall after Cheers? No ambition or good offers?

Diane's age (not 18-22 years old) was perfect for the role of an intellectual snob stuck in a waitressing job, still trying to get a college degree.

Diane was a grad student, R180. She had some kind of unstated undergrad degree but couldn’t settle on a masters.

Do you think Shelley regretted leaving the show? Someone mentioned that upthread, but I never saw the reunions post show, only the 100th episode anniversary or something that aired during the show. She didn't seem included very much. I was thinking she left because of the shitty treatment she received from co-stars and not just for the film career. I was too young to follow the off set drama back then.

Surely Shelley regretted leaving, considering what a disaster her film career was. Shelley was fabulously talented, but not nearly as much as she thought she was. Very pretty, but no classic beauty either. At least Shelley had a brief comeback nailing Carol Brady in the Brady Bunch movies.

I thought the joke was that Diane was a career/perpetual student (i.e., loser). That would make her around 30, when it starts to become pathetic. Long was 33 when the show debuted so not that far off.

She may have regretted leaving but the show was also beginning to stagnate. It would have worn out the premise of Sam and Diane will they or won't they eventually.

Her departure let the show evolve and change, like MASH.

Shelley was the best thing about the show aside from the writing. Ted Danson completely understood that, and was smart to let her shine. FUCK Rhea Perlman for bullying her for five years. In the talent department, Rhea is a zero compared to Shelley Long.

There was something about the Diane character that resonated with my gayness. An outsider, wanting to fit in, but also wanting to stand out. The group of people she was stuck with had no frame of reference to appreciate what she had to offer.

The first four seasons are fantastic. There was never a couple with better tension and chemistry than Sam and Diane. But the on again off again thing can only work for so long. The fifth season is pretty weak compared with the first four. Long was smart to leave when she did. The show became something else entirely when she left, and that's not to say it was bad. Just different.

I had never heard that Rhea was the head bully. I met her once in a business capacity and I didn't care for her. She was very standoffish and this was way after Cheers ended. My boss was all excited about Danny Devito, but when he finally interacted with him, he said he was kind of a jerk and didn't like him. So maybe they aren't such a nice couple after all. It seems like Danson and Grammar have made peace with Long and Harrelson never had an issue with her.

One thing about the ending that wasn't believable was that Diane would end up in Los Angeles. Yes, she was prone to delusions of grandeur and LA was perfect for her ambition. Yet, she was an east coast intellectual, I couldn't picture her being comfortable in LA with all the shallowness and vanity. Especially the way she used to put down Sam's superficial women. I suppose they did that so Sam would have to ultimately choose his true love.

My favorite bit of dialog from the post-Diane years:

Lillith: I know we just met, and we hardly know each other, but would you be my maid of honor?

Rebecca: Sure, but... Isn't that supposed to be your best friend?

Lillith: You are my best friend.

[quote]Coach was the heart of Cheers and the tone of the show started to change in S3 when he wasn't on as much.

Was I the only one who didn't know that Nicholas Colasanto who played Coach was a successful director with over 100 shows to his credit? CHiPs, S.W.A.T., Police Story, Columbo, Hawaii Five-O, Alias Smith and Jones, and Bonanza are just a few he did.