Are men capable of love?

You must be childless OP.

This thread is of course meant as an ironic piss take, as is R1's post.

Op comes from a family of sociopaths.

When I'm alone in my room sometimes I stare at the walls and from the back of my mind I hear my conscience call - telling me I need a girl who's as sweet as a dove. For the first time in my life, I see I need love. I need love.

OP is talking about romantic love, not love for children, which is different.

I've never seen real romantic love in straight relationships. I've seen sexual attraction, sure, but as the passion fades, the man detaches. I think the ancient Greek or Roman idea that men-only relationships are for romantic love, women are for procreation, is probably more true to nature. In those days, no Christianity, so no guilt. Today, that would be so politically incorrect most people would never even consider it.

The term "bromance" is probably a modern day version of that old idea. True male-female soulmates are probably fairly uncommon. Look at the divorce rate.

Oh good - Another thread in which gay men profess to be EXPERTS on the inner dynamics of straight relationships, of course with the obligatory musings that they secretly prefer other men.

Are you aware that lesbians have relationships, R5?

LOL. And you think women are any better? I have seen women drop men just because they lost their job. So much for their unselfish love. You're a fool, OP.

R8, OP doesn't seem to believe women exist independently of women.

You're projecting, OP.

Bitch please, gay men can't stay alive long enough to understand what love is.

R1 confuses progeny with children

I believe all relationships descend into the convenience of roles, or become task oriented based on the abilities of each partner. it only becomes a problem when there's a perceived inequality.

Counseling, people. Try it. It'll make you feel good about what you contribute to the relationship, and give you some necessary insight into what your partner believes he contributes.

If he's a keeper, you'll see why. But start by deaLING WITH YOUR OWN SHIT.

Actually as a straight woman I agree with op. It took me a few relationships to realise that what men meant when they said they loved me, was they wanted to fuck me, and I am a suitable mother replacement, to take care of them. I have never seen a man, gay or straight put women above other men in terms of emotional importance.

Straight women have nothing to offer to this thread. The dynamic is too different. Love you but stay away.

My BF is. So honest, kind, and thoughtful. It sounds very Hallmark, but I have never met someone so full of love. Thankfully he says I am the same.

OP was talking about the difference between men and women, r15.

R15 isn't capable of love or civility, evidently.

After 25 years, my parter and spouse is my life and my true love. I feel at home around him. I feel happy and content. He's also a good fuck. I'm not sure how you define love, but we've been together through everthing and still manage to simle at each other in the morning.

I completely concur, OP.

[quote] OP was talking about the difference between men and women, [R15].

prove it

R17~ No, OP didn't take into account the fact that women are socialized to be subservient. Being subservient is not love.

R18 is incapable of not invading gay spaces.

too little, too late

Mitchfest vs Bitchfest

Whachya been drinking, R5?

I'm a gay guy. I absolutely can love. It takes me forever to fall for someone, but once I do, it doesn't go away. Like a fucking disease, it doesn't go away.

Zinfandel, R26. All of us fat straight chicks who pretend to be gay men drink it

True, lasting love and equality in marriage is possible, but it is VERY rare.

I know of perhaps 2 couples where the man is still respectful, loving and considerate after many years.

Romantic love exists but contrary to popular belief, it doesn't sustain a couple long term. OP is pretty much correct. One person can love another for a decade or more, but if their spouse becomes long term unemployed and can't get a job, the other might bail. Same with those who become very sick and incapacitated. It might be too much for the person who loved them romantically to deal with. Most don't stick through thick and thin.

Again, it bears repeating, romantic love exists but it doesn't weather every storm. OP is correct.

We have become a disposable society and it bleeds over into our relationships. Consider the link.

R30 posts one of the best posts I have ever read.

I AM gay, r23. I also believe straight women have every right to be here and people should be judged by their character and what they have to say, not dismissed out of hand because of their gender/race/sexual orientation. If you want an equal voice in society, respect and the same civil rights as everyone else, then where the hell do you get off telling other people they're not allowed?

My dad loved my mom. Respected her, thought of her first, was loyal and still thought she was sexy well into their 50s. And then she died. It nearly killed him and he's not the same almost 10 years later. He didn't need her to take care of him. My husband and I share a similar love. It took me almost 35 years to find him though.

Of course men are capable of love. But everlasting passion is a very rare thing, and it is a disservice that we all are brought up to expect it. Love, respect, caring those are not myths and, unlike erotic passion, usually, or at least quite often, grow with time.

you support the homophobia that has become rampant at this site, r32. gay men like you, if you even are a gay man, are responsible for being too accepting of ignorant straight women to gay bars and gay websites.

Now instead of having a haven from homophobia, we have it here too and we have idiots like you saying we have to accept it.

Get over yourself asshole.

No one wants your hag here any more than they want her at your local gay bar. they put up with it there because they like you. We don't know you from a hole in the ground

Thank you R31. One thing that needs to be considered in this conversation is a person's age. Those who believe in longevity and sticking together through thick and thin will be people considered 'ancient' now. The younger generation, that is used to 'upgrades' goes on and on about 'dealbreakers', meaning relationship breakers.

As someone who has been in a relationship for over half my life, I've come to the realization that this is it for me. I hope we continue to have a long life together, but since my husband's health is failing, I know that after this, it's me time, there is no way I'm starting over with the dating mentality out there. Grindr apps where your relationship selection becomes delegated to a local yellow pages ad? No thanks, and no wonder. My sympathies to all out there who must go through that.

Think back to relationships during the depression, the second world war, the sixties, those relationships are entirely different than the relationships now, which follow the same principle now as Gordon Gecko's Wall Street ideology. The 80's changed and fucked up everything.

I think few people and couples are capable of love 24/7 which is why it's treated as the holy grail for relationships and idealized so much.

Some of us do.

Sorry OP, but I must agree with your theory, and r30. Just got "departnered" from a 26-year relationship. He wanted me to support him, take care of him, and fuck around. That was not acceptable to me, so I kicked his cheating ass to the curb.

Now I'm on the single scene. What I have learned is that I do not like or respect men, but have a compulsive attraction to them.

It sucks to be us.

True love is incredibly rare. What many call love is actually lust. When lust is gone the relationship is in trouble.

Yes, they are, OP. My grandfather, my father, married friends, etc. I've also witnessed men love while working at nursing homes and hospitals. The display of genuine love and affection by these men is rather moving when I think about it.

A different theory to ponder, selfish people are incapable of love. That being said, many men, if not most men (and women) are very selfish and therefore incapable of love. Incapable of loving themselves too, perhaps.

they just aren't that into you op.

OP, I have tried to love, but when I do my heart starts to thaw and my suppressed feelings come out. I feel all flighty and suddenly I want to go to my neighbor's house and ask him to fuck me from behind while biting my ear, and then I want to go out and have fun with him and my friends, because I love them so.

So, you see, men in love would be dangerous to women. Because it would drive men away from them.

Also, women do not love the way you suggest. They love like bear traps baited with bad fish and tears.

Oh yes, humans are very selfish. We enter relationships with other people because they make us feel good. It's all about us.

Many relationships start out with mostly physical attraction, but if they last long enough you start to think of the other person as your family.

That's how you know you truly love someone-- you care what happens to them, independent of the effect on yourself.

I've known more than a few men who absolutely worshipped their wives. They talked about them when they weren't there with complete respect and devotion. When they were together, they were doting and loving. The weird thing was, none of their wives were particularly smart, attractive, nice, or even good wives. Some were alcoholics and unfaithful. It was baffling. I have never inspired that kind of love in anyone, of course.

Oh, god.

boys do fall in love , they make love They get love on a Saturday night , hearts beat as they dance in the street to a radio ,

[quote]That's how you know you truly love someone-- you care what happens to them, independent of the effect on yourself.

To be honest, I feel that way about my long time friends, too.

[quote]Same with those who become very sick and incapacitated. It might be too much for the person who loved them romantically to deal with. Most don't stick through thick and thin.

This is why marriage has evolved as an institution, because it matters when you stand up in front of your friends and loved ones and say "I will commit to this person through thick and thin". And this extra bit of glue is something that's been denied us.

At some point it becomes a decision, and living up to promises you make.

I was recently and unceremoniously dumped by a serious boyfriend. He flat out told me that his love for me was purely conditional and that the only person he was in love with was himself.

I do think that generally, women are capable of deeper, more unconditional love than men are.

Trust, dears, that the pathology of being incapable of love runs in both sexes - gay or straight.

Fortunately, so does the capability to love.

Choose wisely.

When supermodels start dating regular joes rather than pompous multimillionaires, I will believe that women are capable of deep, unconditional love. Until then, the guy with the cold hard cash is always Mr. Right.

I am OP, I disprove your rule.

my daddy loooooved me

My 85 yr old father did not want to live when my 84 yr old mother died.

He had absolutely no desire to exist in the world without her.

He therefore stopped getting up, just laid in bed, would not walk, completely stopped eating like people who want to die do, and died shortly after my mom's death.

I found it shocking that nothing in the world interested him enough to even live for one more minute, let alone another couple of years.

He was way too emotionally dependent upon my mother. But it was one type of love. And they were married for 64 years.

R56, my parents, both in good health in their mid 70's, will be the same when one of them goes. They are devout catholics and truly believe that marriage is sacred. For more than 50 years, I've never seen them display anything but total respect and love. OP is full of shit.

R5 is full of crap too. OP did not specify only romantic love in his post. Read it again. He said men are not capable of love and attachment --"empathy and true nurturing" because then they would not be able to go to war (??). Bullshit theory. I can't think of a better reason NOT to want to go to war than the fierce love a parent has for a child. The whole "going off to battle" argument falls flat if you are saying men can love children but are not capable of romantic attachment. Men leave their kids all the time to go to war, and many times it is out of pure, selfless love that they do--love of country and love of family.

My aunt and uncle have been married for over 50 years as well. They respect, admire and seem to love and care for each other. I think real love is equal to real respect. If you respect yourself and like yourself you can do the same for others. Few gay men have been taught self-respect. Hence few understand love.

I also think that within real love is a trust and hope. Love means depending on another person without fear. I haven't met a gay man yet who didn't fear rejection in some form.

Women are better at love because they are raised to be more selfless. To be depended upon. Men are raised to be takers.

I am a woman and to the first respose I could kill and hunt for my family and have. Still totaly capable of love. Men have not the bravery to love for it takes great commentment and sacrifice. There self love and neediness to empress there buddies does not make a man. Man has become as rare as a unicorn.

[quote]Women are better at love because they are raised to be more selfless. To be depended upon. Men are raised to be takers.

I agree. But men can learn. I watched my mother take care of my father's every need. He supported us financially, but that's it. Nothing else. Never lifted a finger around the house. He treated my then beautiful mother like crap, imho. He was the poster child for wham-bam-thank-you mam. I know because I shared a wall and heard it.

Fast forward a few decades and my not so beautiful, overweight mom can do nothing for herself and my 84-year old father takes care of her every need, begrudgingly, but he does it. I know he will miss her greatly if she goes before him.

Great, OP, generalize from your own circumstances. If I'm fucked up, everyone must be!!! Just don't off yourself because we'll all be tempted to as well!!

OP, every lesbian knows men aren't capable of the romantic love you describe.

But don't forget: with it comes the drama.

just to mix it up a bit

[bold]Do women really need men?[/bold]

Not for love, R63 -- but many straight women think they need a man to make lots of $$ (that they can spend) and to lift heavy objects & fix shit around the house.

Sooner or later...we all sleep alone.

No, women do not need men. I love men as friends and family members, but not as partners. That's just my preference. Despite this I would not generalize based on gender. I have no interest in love - I just don't believe in it and feel incapable besides.

R3 said exactly what I was going to say. Wow--feel sorry for ya, OP... as well as others who concur in this thread.

Men in my family absolutely nothing like this. Men I have known in my life nothing like this.

Those creatures you speak of are from some brutish planet that is foreign to me, thank god.

Men may be capable of love but it seems more conditional.

I know so many women who will do anything and put up with anything to have a man in their lives. More tolerant than men.

R45 absolutely nailed it. You sir/madam are highly evolved.

I love Lupita.

R69, these women get hit really hard at menopause. In fact, that's when they'll pack up and leave, leaving the man stunned and perplexed at what he had done wrong.

For many years I didn't think I could love anyone. Then at the age of 26 I fell in love. We had an on again off again relationship for 11 years. Then we stopped seeing each other (he dumped me). For 8 years I kept thinking he would come back to me (stupid, I know). Then he died. That was 5 years ago and I still love Ray as much right now as when he first moved in with me. I think about him every day. I want to believe "that it's better to have loved and lost than never loved before" but sometimes I wish I had never even met him. Loving someone can be a blessing or a curse or both.

Doesn't matter how young, sexy, lovely, & giving/invested you are, even if you're paying all the bills (even though I have $$$).

Even if you are/do, I'm always looking over your shoulder for the next best thing.

When I read the posts from partnered gay men who profess to love their long term guy and still enjoy the simple things together, it's obvious that men love. My neighbor is a sweet man and it's obvious he loves his wife of 40 plus years and they are very close. I work with guys who love their parents, their kids, their friends, their pets. But when you look at successful intimate relationships it's a whole nuther thang because you compromise so much of your life and I think the feelings of love are coated with a certain amount of irritation and resentment. So much so that you are shocked at how much you loved that person when they are gone.

Men and women, gay and straight long for love and do love. It's unfair to say their love is not real just because they can't succeed in a relationship fraught with tension.

Men aren't wired for one partner, happily ever after.

[quote] But when you look at successful intimate relationships it's a whole nuther thang because you compromise so much of your life and I think the feelings of love are coated with a certain amount of irritation and resentment. So much so that you are shocked at how much you loved that person when they are gone.

So fucking true!

Bullshit, men are perfectly capable of love. The world would be a much scarier place if they weren't.

OP doesn't know what's going on in his parents' heads. Some relationships, it takes a health crisis/death to openly display love.

Love and monogamy are two different things.

Love and devotion are two different things.

Love and sacrifice are two different things.

Love and commitment are two different things.

Love and passion are two different things.

Not to mention all the different ways that people experience, feel and express love. Some do it in words, some in acts.

People's abilities to feel and express feelings in general are wildly varied.

Men and women are different. People are different. Everyone is different.

Everyone feels love. To different degrees. And expresses love in different ways.

Wow. OP's entire post is a mishmash of sociopathy, presumption, ignorance and dysfunction.

Some truly damaged, fucked-up people post here.

Most don't, OP. But you get postive feedback by faking it.

I am happy to see that I am not the only one that realises this. Our dating culture is such a big lie! Men are not and have never been able to love women. The Huffington Post has published an article stating that men love differently, but the title itself implies that they cannot love, because what they feel is something else.

The main argument here is that men don't care about who women are at all, they are interested in what they can get from them. I am not saying that men cannot lie to get what they want, they do that very well, I am saying that they are unable to experience love. I am sorry but it is true, and I think that fewer female lifes would get destroyed if people knew this.

Yes.

21 years together, love him more each year.

Jesus, OP--fuck off.

[quote] I am sorry but it is true, and I think that fewer female lifes would get destroyed if people knew this.

Oh, you are truly so kind and considerate. What makes you think women don't know this and don't do the same to them? Most of the time these relationships are of mutual use.

Many people confuse lust and obsession with love. A lot of people will stay in dysfunctional relationships if the sex is good. Or money is involved. Men are experts at projecting what they think are admirable personality traits if they are invested in maintaining a (mostly beneficial to them) relationship. Most are just play acting. Let's get real.

We can, but we are less inclined to. Lesbians seem to be the most inclined, sure their romances aren't anything like society tells us romance should be but they come the closest. Lesbians are serial monogamists.

This thread is the longest string of cliches I've read since the last Muslim-bashing extravaganza.

Of course men are capable of love. Me, for example. And it can last a long time.

R87, that's a facile and stupid thing to say. The truth is people live on multiple levels at the same time. Sometimes if I say I love you I mean it, other times I'd rather be somewhere else but think it's something you want to hear, other times I'm feeling guilty about thinking about someone else. And sometimes I mean it but part of me stands outside watching and saying this is ridiculous, and reminds me of the bad things you've done, which I already discounted. Just because people are capable of multi-level ambivalence doesn't mean their love isn't real.

It's quite easy to tell real love when you see it - it's when someone puts their loved one's needs and happiness before their own, cannot be happy unless their loved one is happy, and would rather suffer themselves than see their loved one suffer. Real love is altruism and both men and women can be altruistic.

I need love to make the sex right.

I honestly believe that most men ARE incapable of love. I also think that there are women who are also incapable of it, but not as many as men. One learns much by simply observing.

Is this an old school Major/Program Book Resale troll thread? It sure reads that way with the mother and the father and OP never having been in a relationship. I could be reading into the OP never having been in a relationship, but it sure sounds that way.

[quote]Every relationship [bold]I've seen[/bold] (straight and gay) [bold]seems[/bold] based on convenience, need, dependency, etc.

Op, substitute people, in place of men; the answer is no.

I read somewhere that there's a link between the rise of individualism and the prevalence of romantic love in Western culture. Romantic love requires that you put someone on a pedestal and love them above everything else. It just can't be sustained. The relationships that last are the ones where both people go in with their eyes open that things will change. Of course there are exceptions, but I've known many couples who are all over each other in public and basically ignore each other in private. That's why marriage vows are about staying together through the good and bad times, not promising to still think the way the light catches your guy's eyes is magical in 30 years time. It's practical, mutual dependency. When one person doesn't need the other as much as they used to, or their needs aren't being met, it stands to reason that in our culture, which encourages selfishness and narcissism, they'll often just walk.

I think the most important element of maintaining long term relationships is tolerance, your partner becomes extremely annoying eventually. All of the little things you overlooked during the passionate years become very obvious and you really start to focus on them. Petty issues build up and ruin most relationships.

R4C1$T L3$B14N TROLL 4L3RT!

[bold]Elder Aaron Davis:[/bold] He loved me.

[bold] Sister Gladys Davis:[/bold] Don't say that! Do you know how ridiculous that sounds? How repulsive that is to God, to everyone? Two men? Men don't love, Airy. Women bring love to a relationship.

[quote] Just because people are capable of multi-level ambivalence doesn't mean their love isn't real.

Yes, yes it does.

r76 Has had a lot of practice justifying being a slut.

It could also be a man cuddling another man in that photo. I just happened to find this one.

Men incapable of loving aren't men, they're boys posing as men.

Women incapable of loving aren't women, they're girls posing as women.

Pick an adult.

Of course, you have to be an adult to do so.

Even parent-child relations can be way over rated.

When I was an adolescent I started having long term severe depression anxiety issues.

It didn't help that my must stay married catholic parents had the marriage from hell.

My mother showed her displeasure with me in no uncertain terms(my son is a lemon!) and when I was 21 my father told me he wished I would commit suicide.

And I know of other parental horror stories. I certainly was not alone.

Nothing is guaranteed and all individuals are different.

Women are like cats. They only pretend to love you to get what they want.

And men are dogs.

They only pretend to love you so they can fuck you.

And if they don't want to fuck you then you become invisible to them.

I think men are mentally ill to a greater degree than women and on top of that, seem to suffer from various personality disorders much more frequently as well. It's problematic when abnormal, anti-social male behavior gets tolerated to the degree it does and men don't have to abide by the standards of civilized behavior.

"This thread is the longest string of cliches I've read since the last Muslim-bashing extravaganza."

Calling people out on their fucked up behavior is not "bashing". The Catholic Church calls its critics "bashers" as well. Anytime you call out abuse, the simple-minded will try to shut you down. Muslims need to be criticized as does anyone who slaughters people in the name of their "God".

Straight love is definitely on the decline in society though. Most straight people I know are usually only motivated by lust or greed.

Motivated by lust or greed?

Like since the beginning of the human species?

R110 are you a Buddhist?

Sometimes I swear I fall in love with guys I see in porn. Does that count?

Nice try, R108.

Flip male for female in your hypothesis, and you might be onto something.

Which gender writes the most love poetry?

It's more rare, but there are guys capable of it. They're either obviously evolved beyond the norm or they had psychologically healthy, good fathers who modeled for them.

I have a very low opinion of the male's abilities in this area, but even I see loads of evidence to the contrary. It's not obvious if you just look out into the media - the entertainment industry for example - you have to look around in daily life, family and friends.

And I disagree that men/children bond means nothing re ability to love. The improvement in fathers from my parents' gen to mine (Gen X) is startling, particularly fathers to daughters.

I once read a great novel that started with a saying that "in every love relationship, one of the two always loves more than the other". I never forgot it because it seems to be true, certainly always has for me. It might not be true 100% of the time but it's true most of the time. Furthermore, I think it's true whether it's 2 women, two men or a man and a woman. Just think about your own relationships.

And another novel, R117, someone said "... and the one that loves less, controls the relationships".

Think about that - if someone loves you more than you love them, it give you tremendous power over them. I think everyone realizes that, either consciously or unconsciously, and in an era when everyone is free to form multiple relationships IMHO it makes everyone afraid to fall in love.

I think the passion between a married hetero couple can stay, if the woman remains thin and keeps busy. Is that real "love" though? Idk.

Trite, but I've seen it. It's rare, though.

I know my mother loved her children unconditionally, even when we were jerks. You could just see it in everything she did.

My father flat out told me he didn't believe in unconditional love for his kids. Actually, I asked him if he loved me unconditionally. He looked at me like I was crazy as said "No, of course not."

Fucked me up, but having my mother made up for it. She was truly selfless in her affection. I would have been a real sociopath if I had been raised by only my father. Still fight it, to be honest, but my mother gave me a sense of humanity and empathy.

You would have been a sociopath just because of that?!?

r118 TOTALLY! That addition is spot on and I know that from personal experience.

R118/R122. Only in the short term. In the long run, living a life where you don't love that much and are engaged in manipulation turns a person brittle and sour. Also we have to distinguish between love and projecting an ideal onto someone and then getting dependent on it. Actual love doesn't turn you into a victim even if you do love more.

R121 - no - that was just the tip of the iceberg of his horrible parenting.

Being raised solely in that environment would have turned my mind.

[quote] I think the ancient Greek or Roman idea that men-only relationships are for romantic love, women are for procreation, is probably more true to nature.

Um?????

Sidney Carton was not a lover.

If OP had started this thread about women being incapable of love, it would have gotten the same replies. Think about that.

What do studies show? Women are the ones who want to get married. Men are the ones who want to stay married. Women are happier after they break up. I think the reason is that women conceptualize the wedding as a party celebrating the bride's life. It's the acceptable period for her to be a narcissist, although over too soon. But Men think of marriage as having someone take over mother's duties.

I'm guessing OP didn't live through the AID's crisis. I saw some men face it together, taking care of each other as they both faded out and I saw some face death where only one partner was ill. I also witnessed a few men suffering alone, angry and bitter. So, are men capable of selfless love? You bet. Hope you find it, OP.

In particular, men don't like having to make decisions all the time. Women love that.

Are there people who are incapable of love? Yes but it's mainly genetic. It runs in families.

True selfless love can be possible in only two relationship

A mother/[possiblly father too] love for their children

The love between two straight men

Rest of them is some sort of need-based

Are there women incapable of love? Lots.

The thing is, almost nobody thinks they are incapable of love. They just adjust their thinking about what love is to cover what they do feel. So it's pretty easy to tell. Just ask them what they think love is, and if it sounds like an adult version of "I love my grandma because she gives me candy," then stay away.

[quote]So, be honest. Do we men actually LOVE (like women seem to do...unselfishly)?

Yes. Unfortunately you were raised in a scenario which has stunted you somehow rendering you exclusively incapable of loving other people.

You should probably date women if you love them so much and obviously find them superior--because you feel that you as an individual are inferior and project that feeling on to all other men.

[quote] The love between two straight men

LMFAO. That is not what I think of as true selfless love. I've never seen straight men sacrifice anything for each other.

WTF is it with all these woe is me, there is no love threads? Based on scattered observations but written in the language of verifiable proof.

So your dad is a fuck up? Too bad for your mother. But that's it.

Op you don't know many straight men do you?

R130 there can be selfless love between same-sex siblings, twins or otherwise, who have been raised together and voluntarily spend time together as adults.

In general men get their sexual needs met from women and their emotional needs met from men. Conversely, in general women get their sexual needs met from men and their emotional needs met from women.