Going Vegan

I beg your pardon, OP. I have been vegetarian since 1998 and vegan since May 2010. Do you want to know my background? I grew up poor in rural area and am currently on disability. My veganism is for ethical reasons. I don't expect everyone to be vegan, but I do expect mutual respect.

I'm a p-tarian myself. :)

What's a p-tarian, R2? I don't get it. Veganism is now rampant among the Ivy League colleges. It's nuts.

[quote]It's just a wealthy, cosmopolitan thing. Elitists ara vegan. Half of Yale undergrads are vegan these days.

Don't forget a hipster thing!

It's totally a hipster thing, and a self-righteous thing.

Very unhealthy eating fad. Meat is just about the healthiest food a human can eat, especially red meat.

I'm wealthy and cosmopolitan? Why didn't someone tell me?

Well, I guess it was too much to hope that this wouldn't turn into yet another vegan bashing thread.

Are you a he vegan or a she vegan?

I am not a vegan. But recently, due to a health problem (gallbladder, which will have to be surgically removed) I haven't been able to eat butter, meat, and sugar. Had a blood test and everything has dropped dramatically - cholesterol levels, sugar in the blood, you name it.

R9, I'm a woman.

I'd love to be vegan, but all-veg makes me a little light-headed (not enough iron?).

Anybody have any great recipes for dishes that are high in vitamin and protein content?

R6, I wouldn't go THAT far. I mean, a Harvard study that just came out basically proved that red meat = early death!

The problem with veganism / vegetarianism is the typically-heavy reliance on soy. Unfermented** soy is bad stuff, more than as an occasional food. But many of the meat-free options are soy-based. It's interesting that anyone still thinks soy should comprise a regular part of one's diet. I was reading soy studies back in 1998. The info has been available for a long time.

**Fermented soy is probably okay. At least the studies haven't found any health problems with them, so tempeh, soy sauce, miso, etc., should be alright if your system can tolerate soy at all.

Vegetarian = healthy. Vegan = eating disorder.

I'm a proud vegan

[quote]I am not a vegan. But recently, due to a health problem (gallbladder, which will have to be surgically removed) I haven't been able to eat butter, meat, and sugar. Had a blood test and everything has dropped dramatically - cholesterol levels, sugar in the blood, you name it.

Those are three dissimilar items to be lumping in together.

Try bringing back the meat but keeping the sugar completely eliminated. There's nothing wrong with butter, but since I don't eat bread I haven't seen a use for it. I prefer olive oil on vegetables.

The trick is to not actually BE a vegan but eat occasional (or fairly regular) vegan meals, combined with vegetarian meals and occasional meat.

2/3 of the vegans on college campuses are women. They *look* fine, but who knows ...

True, R18. For a good part of my childhood, I lived with my mom who adhered to a near-vegan diet. The only animal products we really had in the house would be cheese or some fish that she bought only maybe once a month, some canned tuna from time to time, chicken if we ordered Chinese food, and the extremely rare pint of ice cream. I think she even threw out some Jell-O my grandmother gave me.

I would have been fine without red meat at home, but I would have been much happier, and perhaps healthier, if we regularly had cheese and dairy milk in the house, had poultry or seafood with half the dinners, and only ate the better meat substitutes with the rest of the meals, like the decent tofu patty mix instead of horrible textured vegetable protein chunks. I'm not sure if it was for cost or health, but thankfully my mom's diet is much more relaxed now.

Anyone who's going to go vegan, or even vegetarian, find some good recipes.

You need to know a LOT about nutrition to "do" veganism properly, and you must be willing to invest a lot of time in it (including shopping, the actually studying, etc.). It's not recommended for busy people.

bump

I'm well-off and urban, and I'd rather die than give up dairy... and the occasional rack of ribs.

Any sane person can see how unhealthy and dangerous a vegan diet is.

Veganism is an eating disorder. It really is as simple as that.

Unfortunately, vegans rely heavily on nightshades--potatoes, tomatoes, eggplants--vegans eat much more nightshade items without compensating with enough yang foods--meats, dairy, etc. Diets heavy in nightshades cause very serious health problems as well as depression. Every long-term vegan I have met has serious arthritis and/or osteoporosis. The human body is not meant to absorb its nutrients soley in supplements, therefore vegans are always deficient in vitamins and minerals, especially B12, which is very hard to absorb by supplement. If veganism was a healthy choice I would do it--I hate eating flesh. The act of chewing flesh makes me sick. However, I can't afford to be sick and debilitated, so I must include animal products in my diet.

Nope, the real eating disorder is this unnatural fetish for animal flesh.

Watch Forks Over Knives. Or read it. Either way, you'll see the healthy vegan lifestyle presented sensibly. I've been vegan for 20 years, am now almost 70, and am much healthier than almost all my peers.

It's a way of showing off that you "make a difference," an up-stakes version of office volunteer day, slogans on t-shirts, and bumper stickers on the back of a lesbian's old Volvo wagon.

I was dead broke when I was a student so I ate mostly vegeterian food to get a loot of food for my money. Lots of Indian meals, rice, beans, lentils and a couple of times a week fish or chicken.

My partner and I went semi vegetarians, more than half our meals are vegetarian, and we realised that we saved a lot of money.

My next goal is to eat more vegan meals and also raw food every week.

Vegetarians are tedious. Vegans are insufferable.

I like salads, fresh peas and stuff like that but some of the vegan dishes I've seen look like puke and everything seems like it's made out of tofu which is disgusting.

I could never give up steak and ribs altogether. I try and eat just a salad or something like a baked sweet potato for dinner several times a week though.

I have a hard time believing that college students have the time or the means to prepare nutritionally adequate vegan meals. Eating well as a vegan can be expensive, college students don't always have access to kitchens, avoid cooking in communal kitchens due to "contamination," and have an on-the-run lifestyle with little time to dedicate to cooking...

Two-thirds are women? I wonder how many of these are actually anorexics or otherwise eating disordered and veganism gives them some type of cover or provides a context where food phobias, restricting food intake and stereotyped or ritualistic eating is acceptable. There are the Panhellenics who eat anything and live in bulemic clusters in sorority settings and then these girls. They've all gravitated toward social settings that accomodate their lifestyles and eating disorders.

Low-carb fanatics are insufferable.

I don't trust anyone who doesn't like bacon. Vegans or Vegetarians just use this as a form of control through food. "Did you serve meat on this platter?" UGH. I was seriously interested in someone until about the third date when I found out he was a vegetarian. I ran like I was on fire.

I saw the film Forks over Knives and I couldn't believe how absolutely awful T. Colin Campbell looked. He has a grey pallor and appears to be much older than his years. And here he is pushing his 'healthy' way of eating. I have been to seminars that have included vegan lectures and am not impressed with what I see--long-term vegans look bad. Not to be mean, but they are no attraction to the cause. Most are skinny-fat, with no muscle tone, or just plain fat. I can't describe the pallor of these people, only as mostly greyish with a cadavor touch.

I have spoken to a holistic doctor, who is very progressive and open-minded, and he said that the vegans he sees hit a wall in the twelth year, without fail. At this time their health just go to hell, and with very serious complications. Arthritis is always there, as well as cancer and heart disease. This doctor is not a liar.

For 'experts' like T. Colin Campbell to push veganism as a way to stay cancer-free and avoid heart attacks is fraudulant and cruel. Just take a good look at the people pushing veganiam and make your own assessment.

I couldn't date one either R34. I can't imagine having to cook for one. What a nightmare.

At one Thanksgiving, a vegan guest brought this vegetable casserole mess. Everyone had a serving, but we all ended up just pushing it around our plates making it look like we'd had some. Are vegans against salt and other seasonings as well as animal products?

Only the wealthy can afford it. Read Fast Food Nation. There's a reason meat is cheaper than vegan stuff.

The best way is to alternate between vegetarian meals and having the occasional steak. Fish should be consummed often.

Mushrooms that taste like bacon (mushrooms are protein).

R35, I'll take Campbell's knowledge and reasoning over some random holistic "doctor".

Veganism is rampant in all colleges, as far as I can tell. Students do it to to show their families they're making their own decisions, and because they're still young enough to believe they can separate themselves from all the awfulness in the world. And colleges are much more vegan-friendly than the real world, every restaurant in this college town has vegan and veggie options.

I'd like to see a study on how many college vegans and vegetarians go back to eating meat, in the post-college years.

I would say 99.9999999999999999 percent. And the guys who do it in college are probably doing it to get some pretty vegan pussy.

PETA is an organization made up of 1 percenters.

I used to give PETA, until they went (IMO) completely loony, vegan, against leather, and any and all animal products.

They're about a nanometer way from the old Buddhist monks who wouldn't walk on the grass because they might kill an ant.

Veganism can be a healthy way to eat if you are well informed about nutrition. The focus of good vegan diet should be eating lots of whole food like veggies, legumes and nuts. It should not be about eating fake meat products.

Oh, fuck off. Veganism isn't an elitist thing. Vegans come from a wide spectrum of people. Seventh Day Adventists, Buddhists, rich, poor, whatever.

I'm a vegan purely for health reasons; I'm no elitist. I can't eat much protein because it damages my already-damaged kidneys.

I went with vegan and vegetarian friends to Soy and Sake in the West Village and not a single thing on the menu looked even remotely appetizing. I found it absurd, too, to have things like soy ham, soy shrimp, soy beef. Soy, soy, soy.

What is wrong with all of you? So pissy and judgy about how others eat. It's true maintaining proper nutrition on vegan diets is complicated, especially if you're not careful. But so what? If that's that people want to do, live and let live.

It's not about pissing off their parents, it's about not eating animals. If I had been able to make it as a vegetarian (who ate eggs and dairy), I would have continued beyond my 8 years of vegetarianism, because I like the idea of not eating animals. Also, the entire population eating meat is not possible to sustain - plant foods take far fewer inputs and land mass to grow. But in my case, I was dying and couldn't swing it. Meat is just what I needed. I don't regret taking up meat again, but neither am I going to castigate someone who doesn't eat animals.

As for all their soy intake, however, well... it's on them to read the studies, which I've been reading since 1998, which show all the harmfulness of soy. Still, to each their own.

vegan women are anorexic. end of story.

I'm vegan, and I'm poor (really poor), late middle age, live in a rural area of a very small city in a red state.

I grow a good portion of my food, and it's not about meat substitutes.

I admit when I'm invited to someone's house, I eat whatever they serve, so I'm not 100 percent vegan. But that only happens a few times a year.

I've eaten this way since the early 90s, but I get better each year about making food choices that are nutritionally sound. Kale is one my staples, along with beans, squash, quinoa, oatmeal, peppers, sweet potatoes, and lots of fruit, especially melons when they're in season.

Most people I know don't know I'm a vegan, because people are irrational about the subject, so I don't tell them, and they can watch me eat and never guess.

My heart numbers are all excellent, and even though I look my age, my skin is fantastic and looks better now than it did 20 years ago.

I love the film Forks over Knives, and also the books of Neal Barnard, Caldwell Esselstyn and Rip Esselstyn.

I never try to promote my way of eating onto other people, but I do ask that other people (if they know I'm a vegan) not try to convince me to eat meat, fish or dairy. My doctor and I are both very happy wIth what this has done for me, so I don't need someone else to make uninformed comments about what I should or shouldn't eat.

Rice and Beans, when done properly, actually tastes better than a hamburger...but I still eat both.

"So pissy and judgy about how others eat"

This is the #1 reason why a lot of people go vegan. It's the modern-day self-righteous thing. If you have that in your personality, you will be attracted to veganism.

#2 - to fight with their parents. Self-righteous people are often passive-aggressive, too.

#3 - eating disorder

#4 - as R42 said "they're still young enough to believe they can separate themselves from all the awfulness in the world" - I suppose that is really the #1 reason I listed above.

R51 sounds sincere, not one of the vegan hysterics because of these comments:

"I admit when I'm invited to someone's house, I eat whatever they serve" (a self-righteous type uses these occassions to put on a big show), and "I never try to promote my way of eating onto other people."

It really is the new 1% perma-diet.

Eating vegan is very healthy. Neither meat nor dairy are really good for you. As far as I know eggs and fish in moderation are healthy, but they aren't necessary.

I suspect Oprah is a closet vegan. As is Howard Stern.

Obviously educated young people go vegan, because it's a smart and ethical choice. Society moves forward, slowly.

Please also compare numbers of how many of those college kids are for gay marriage and compare that with the normal, older, poorer people. I wonder if you will still be full of anger the self-righteous hipsters.

Interesting take on it, R57. Maybe, maybe ... interesting.

[quote]Eating vegan is very healthy. Neither meat nor dairy are really good for you.

How can meat, the food humanity subsisted on for millions of years, which we evolved to eat to the point that our teeth are shaped to chew it, be bad for us?

I don't eat meat or poultry, but do eat fish & dairy products. For me, it's a matter of personal ethics & I've never been sanctimonious about it.

Nevertheless, one of my "friends" cannot resist making a fuss on my behalf, loudly & in public. To the waitress: "Oh, no eggs benedict for her, she CAN'T EAT CANADIAN BACON!" -- to the group deciding what restaurant to meet at: "Oh no, the BBQ place would never work for HER SPECIAL DIET!" -- to the guy at the pizza counter: "Do you have anything at all WITHOUT MEAT FOR HER?"

I agree that it's ludicrous to wax righteous over one's eating habits, but neither should others ridicule me about my choice of food.

yeah, R60 - that sounds stupid, too.

Adolf Hitler was a vegan.

So fish are lesser beings?

No, R63, it just doesn't bother me to eat them the way it bothers me to eat cows or ducks. Maybe because fish are cold-blooded? But so are lizards & I wouldn't eat them. Not rational, I know -- but it makes me feel better & that's my business -- I'm not going to lord it over anyone else.

R1's reply says everything about the dangers of veganism.

I eat chicken, fish, and dairy so I'm not a vegan, but I eat no red meat, no processed foods, and very little gluten. Brown rice, beans, lentils especially, veggies and sweet not white potatoes. Since I changed my diet eight years ago, I am amazed at how well I eat and how little it costs compared to what I used to spend.

LOL Now Hitler was a vegan? Where will this stupid legend end?

Hitler tried to avoid red meat for health reasons. He was not a vegetarian.

R67 is correct. Hitler was not vegan and not really a vegetarian, as many historians say he reduced the amount of meat he ate, but never stopped eating it completely, and also ate eggs and dairy products.

Vegans aren't better than you because they're vegans. They've vegans because they're better than you.

Fat westerners feel compelled to ridicule anyone whose life choices illustrate the fact that a diet that revolves around meat and dairy (especially when processed) is what makes us fat and unhealthy. People evolved to eat meat about as often as chimps do, i.e., occasionally, and it's grossly unnatural to build every meal we eat around meat. Speaking of grossly unnatural, take a look at the larger factory farms that produce the meat we're eating. Natural? Healthy? I don't think so.

R70 you'll get hostility from people like me because we have to hear ignorance spread by people like you.

Meat, dairy, and dietary fat do not make people fat. Period.

Sugar and flour do. Where sugar and flour go in the world, people gain weight. Where it is eaten more, you find cancer, diabetes, and the other diseases of civilization.

But sugar is off the table with food research. It has been declared safe, fine, not the problem, and that's that. Every single food study you see that declares the latest thing not safe -- whether it be saturated fat, or red meat, or whatever -- doesn't control for sugar consumption. It's just not measured!

So yes -- we "fat westerners" do eat a lot of meat and dairy. But guess what we eat even more of? Sugar. Guess what the Japanese eat very little of? Sugar.

I am the last person to defend modern meat production. If you can find grass fed, antibiotic free, that is the way to go. But it's hard to find and it's expensive. But meat is the central staple of the human metabolism. I am not even sure vegetables are important. I like them, but animal products are much more important as a source of nutrition.

Plus the meat omnivores, including humans for most of their history, naturally sometimes eat is mostly small animals like maggots, not cows. Eating beef once a week won't kill you, eating beef once a day tends to do that eventually. Leaving beef out completely is perfectly fine and natural.

R71 You can't be serious. Are you from Texas?

You can compare Inuits, who lived of meat, but no sugar!, with many African tribes who lived vegetarian 99% of the time. Guess who was finished by so-called diseases of civilization (minus diabetes) in their 30s and guess who never got them and stayed healthy and fit until old age.

(Yes, sun is likely also important.)

Why do most people, carnivores and vegans alike, feel compelled to convince other people of the "right" way to eat? Eat what you want, but respect my right to decide for myself what I'll eat or not eat.

"Vegetarianism encompasses the practice of following plant-based diets (fruits, vegetables, etc.), with or without the inclusion of dairy products or eggs, and with the exclusion of meat."

"Veganism is the practice of abstaining from the use of animal products. Ethical vegans reject the commodity status of animals and the use of animal products for any purpose, while dietary vegans (or strict vegetarians) eliminate them from their diet only. Another form, environmental veganism, rejects the use of animal products on the premise that the industrial practice is environmentally damaging and unsustainable."

[quote]Why do most people, carnivores and vegans alike, feel compelled to convince other people of the "right" way to eat? Eat what you want, but respect my right to decide for myself what I'll eat or not eat.

Do you also respect the eating habits of bulimics and anorexics?

Yes it's nuts. Cause that's about all you can eat.

WHAT ABOUT THE PLANTS FEELINGS?

I'm losing my taste for meat as I get older. It just doesn't taste good anymore.

As for soy, I got my mother to switch to Silk and to include more soy protien in her diet. She dropped 30 lbs and got off her type II diabetes meds after a month. It worked out great for her because if she wanted say, a sandwich, she could pop a "Grillers" into the micro and where as before she would eat a sandwich of processed meat on white bread.

I don't know what the anti-soy poster is talking about (I haven't read up on it) but I was introduced to Grillers by a physician friend who said that I wasn't getting enough protien in the morning to get my seratonin levels up. Whether that's true or not isn't something I want to debate, I can see the difference it's made for an 80 year old lady who was on the verge of needing insulin. I got sick of them but I think I'll get some today.

PROTEIN. protien = wtf? are you dyslexic, r64?

There are lots of societies in the world where the people eat 80% to nearly 100% carbs, and their all thin and healthy. While Americans, who eat huge amounts of meat, dairy, eggs and fat, you know all the stuff Atkins claims is good for you, keep getting fatter and fatter.

We're directly descended from tree dwelling fruitarian omnivores. Also primates are the only animals in the world who can both see color and taste sweet. That alone tells you that we're genetically designed to eat lots of fruit.

Brooklynite Jonathan Safran Foer went vegan after writing his book "Eating Animals." I suppose he blogs about it.

I wonder why veganism is SUCH an emotional subject on DL. I couldn't become a vegan myself, but any attempt made by any person to reduce their meat intake (cattel requires so much land, grain, water and other resources) is to be applauded.

Sorry, *cattle*

Does anyone have a good veggie burger recipe?

I think when PETA started to lobby for a ban on AIDS research (because testing new anti-viral meds on mice may kill them) all vegans got this anti-gay Haus Frau rep.

Plus the bulk of PETA members are over emotional, rich white women and their teenage daughters. (You know those same people who drive 3 blocks, from their 5,000 sqft home, to throw away 5 ounces of recyclable plastic and declare themselves saviors of the environment)

I don't understand extremism in any measure. The raw food movement people are the worst.

I live near Farm Sanctuary, and I'd love to get involved because I think what they do is wonderful, but they are super militant about animal rights to the point that I think they are their own worst enemy. I'm afraid to visit wearing leather for fear of being lectured.

No one wants to be hassled. R60, you should avoid that "friend" or confront her on her boorish behavior. I have a pescatarian friend and yes, it's a pain in the ass to make him a special dish everytime we get together, but I wouldn't dream of hassling him about it because I love him and that's just what his deal is.

What is more boorish than someone who thinks they have the right to tell you what to eat? It's rude and presumptuous and no one else's business.

R81 People get defensive because they think someone else taking responsibility for what they eat means they themselves could also do so, or they might even do something wrong by not doing so.

[quote]Where sugar and flour go in the world, people gain weight. Where it is eaten more, you find cancer, diabetes, and the other diseases of civilization.

I think we have a winner here. Guess what is in almost everything we eat that is prepackaged? Lots and lots of sugar and HFCS. Try finding a loaf of bread without HFCS. It's not easy. We have raised children on sugar since birth. Everything in America tastes sweeter than anywhere else.

[quote]Everything in America tastes sweeter than anywhere else.

True. Even the corn! I tasted some corn when I was in LA and I thought it had sugar in it, it was so sweet and nasty. The corn here in my country has a totally different taste.

[quote]Why do most people, carnivores and vegans alike, feel compelled to convince other people of the "right" way to eat?

Have you never associated with other humans? What topic don't humans form an opinion about and tell others what is "right."

Obviously, religion, sexuality, money, reproduction, politics, healthcare, child raising, fashion, recycling, driving, and relationships are off the table.

R88, most of the corn grown in California that's intended for human consumption is white, which has been bred to produce maximum sweetness. As a result, it doesn't have much corn taste & is just kind of sugary. So I prefer yellow, but that's hard to find at farmers' markets because the great demand is for white. Dammit -- when I want to eat sweet produce, I choose fruit, not corn!

Is it hard (outside of large cities) to find simple sourdough bread in the US, with just three of four ingredients? (for people who don't have time to bake their own, obviously.) I was always surprised that bread had such a bad name in the US - until I actually went there.

Sourdough bread is actually not difficult or terribly time-consuming to make at home, R91, if it's something you like a lot and want a high-quality product, though of course most people don't want to take the time or go to the effort to make it.

But corn is a lot more difficult. I grow corn every year and it's hard to get a worthwhile harvest from a small crop, because it has to be cross-pollinated from other plants.

I've tried pollinating it by hand, letting bees do it, and hoping the wind does it, and regardless of the method, a small plot of corn can require a lot of work while producing almost nothing worth eating.

I don't give up, however, because by growing it myself, I can get at least a few ears of old-fashioned corn without that hybrid sweetness so prevalent in commercial corn.

Jonathan Safran Foer is an asshole.

I think the thing about vegans that inspires so much vitriol is the fact that they always imply they're much more enlightened than the average person...just because they don't eat meat or animal byproducts. Meanwhile, vegans are among the most racist, classist, sexist, negative, etc. people I've ever met. If they're so noble, why do they take on other attributes that make them among the most vile people one could ever meet?

And don't even get me started on the hypocrisy they let slip every now and then! I can't get over the fact that vegans see no problem in the domestication of animals, because most that I've known are unabashed pet owners.

Thanks, R92.

[quote] vegans are among the most racist, classist, sexist, negative, etc. people I've ever met.

Sure they are R93, sure they are.

R93 wonders why he has no friends....

Awww, poor babies. Looks like I upset R95 and R96. Go eat a tofu hot dog and get the fuck over it.

FYI: I don't support PETA. They give us vegans a bad name.

We kill animals to consume for protein and, in return, they kill us with heart disease.

Good. We're even.

I'll never stop consuming sugar, salt or animal fat. They taste too good.

When it comes to sugar, a pint of Starbucks Coffee Almond Fudge Ice Cream (which, alas, they no longer produce) tastes better then Frozen Soy Creme using sugar substitutes.

Are we the only society that insists on applying guilt to food consumption?

I'm too busy enjoying my own diet to condemn a vagan for thiers. Besides, it's just bad manners to negatively comment on someone's food choices.

R93, I'm not all like you describe. I'm an activist for various issues; in addition to being vegan I'm socialist, feminist, anti-racist, etc. Veganism fits in with my egalitarian, non-violent philosophy and lifestyle. I don't know any vegans like you described; if they were any if those things I would avoid them. Just as I avoid omnivores who expouse those views.

oops- vagan-vegan

I find Veganism or Vegetarianism a lot less awful that obese junk food eaters.

"I'm too busy enjoying my own diet to condemn a vagan for thiers."

Call me crazy, but even the butchest bull dyke cannot live on a diet of pussy alone.

R100, that's an argument that I've made on this forum many times. I'm not at all like the horrible vegans people on this forum say they meet all the time. None of my friends are like that nor have any of us met a vegan who behaved like that.

It doesn't matter. They'll just come back with some variation of "Yes they are! Vegans are [insert string of insults].

Face it: meat (the kind any non-royal human can afford) is filled with aluminum (see 'pink slime'). It creates heavy metal toxicity that slows down your digestion...and your mind. I am a raw food vegan and never, ever disclose it. I eat cooked vegetarian food as a guest, then go home to eat rich green food and rock molasses and flax smoothies, baby. I was a little buffer as a meat eater, but so what. I am certain the 'vegans are uptight sissies' meme is industrial mind control. I once confronted a pissy Christian with these words: 'so you're a vegetarian then...eating 'the Essene diet' like Christ? He said in the bible you can't be a disciple of his and consume the flesh of animals...so you're a vegetarian, right?' My opponent stared at his mental master in awe and fear. If you think Monsato is messing up the seeds, take a wild guess what is happening to animals. Their torture is unbelievable, even on 'free range' farms - like that stinking shithole right beside the 5, in the middle of LA and SF. Reduce meat consumption with raw food - it 'smudges' one's age, not that I give a shit (which I do like a clock now, anyway)

" I am certain the 'vegans are uptight sissies' meme is industrial mind control. "

If so, you certainly seem to have received the meme...

Everything is a "meme" now.

yeah, I received the meme- and saw through it, sludgy!

Vegan and vegetarian are different. I would think a vegan diet takes much more care and knowledge so that the individual maintain their health.

If I could afford it I'd be a pescatarian. Poultry is the only meat I eat (outside of seafood) and I could leave it if it weren't for the protein.

I agree with whoever mentioned that it's a good idea to have a meal or two during the day that doesn't include meat but should include dairy, nuts, veg, etc.

I don't eat red meat b/c I find it disgusting. A few times a year I'll take a piece of pork at family gatherings so that no one feel offended. Poultry and/or fish in one meal a day is what I'm accustomed and although I can't imagine living a dairy/fish/ poultry free life, if someone can maintain a healthy diet while removing those three food groups then fine for them as long as they don't obnoxiously try to tell me what to eat.

What I don't understand are those vegans and vegetarians who eat junk food. That's freaking disgusting AND unhealthy. Soda, chips, sweets, processed foods are empty calories. Those folks are likely malnutritioned as their diet includes shit food instead of real food (same thought about meat eaters who eat that junk. They are also likely malnutritioned without knowing it).

Forget fish after Fukashima. There's radiation now in the kelp just off the coast of Cali. No, this isn't an overreaction. What infuriated (and scared me) is the Japanese government's refusal to create a world think tank to secure Fukashima as well as possible after the incidents. The world is changed, the poison is in the water, and veganism (and eventually, hydroponic veganism) will be the next generation's only hope. Get ready for cancer to skyrocket in meat eaters and pescatarians. It's sad.

r109, your fourth paragraph contradicts your third where you condemn the act of "obnoxiously try(ing)to tell me what to eat."

From a long experience in enjoying the "empty calories" of soda, chips, sweets and processed foods, you're rudeness offends me. Stop rudely commenting on my choices and I won't comment on yours.

Of course, if we did that, this thread wouldn't exist.

The fish thing after Fukishima is a big worry. I've told friends about this but they apparently think I'm overreacting. Even showing the charts as to how the Pacific Ocean is showing signs of the fallout doesn't seem to faze anyone.

Agriculture in North America will also be impacted, even if it's at a slower rate than the ocean. Vegans aren't going to survive either thus it's kind of silly to think it will be only the those who depend on fish and meat who'll get the cancers.

And it's hard to find the truth/info about Fukishima

Feeling disdain for junk food addicts and telling them what to eat are totally different things. One can think it's gross but that doesn't mean one would ever tell anyone to their face that it's disgusting. Junk food addicts can continue what they're doing to their hearts 'delight'. Just like when someone doesn't eat meat and the host serves a steak, one can thank them for the meal and take a piece to show respect without making a federal production out of it. Just manners.

I think if I met R105 face-to-face, I would have to back away slowly... you sound nuts.

I'm linking an interesting website on Fukishima radiation, with maps. This really deserves a thread all it's own.

Surely not ALL fish are affected, are they? What about fish from the north Atlantic? Lots of salmon and other fish come from there.

Sorry, here's the link

Fukishima and US

Can someone please start a Fukishima thread? I did a search and got nothing. I'm finding all kinds of stuff about debris washing up on the west coast from the tsunami and some of it is radioactive.

PETA is supporting experiments to "grow" meat in laboratories, presumably because this won't harm any animals. There is a long article in this weekend's Financial Times about efforts to produce a hamburger in this way. It's a really long article but if anyone's interested (you have to register to read their site) I can copy/paste it.

"One of the biggest incentives so far comes from Peta, People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals, which has offered $1m for the world’s first lab-grown chicken meat. The deadline is June. The organisation gave a research grant to Genovese in 2006 to work in the lab of expert Vladimir Mironov at the University of South Carolina. Mironov’s lab has since been shut down, but Genovese is continuing to research at the University of Missouri, establishing “seed stock” sources of cells for cultivation of meat in vitro."

The University of South Carolina lab which tried to "grow" meat but was shut down sounds rather dodgy.

MUSC suspends leading scientist Dr. Vladimir Mironov

Vladimir Mironov has been suspended indefinitely and his lab at the Medical University of South Carolina has been shut down. The Charleston scientist leading a project to grow in-vitro meat from an animal's stem cells has been suspended indefinitely and his lab at the Medical University of South Carolina has been shut down.

MUSC officials delivered the news to Dr. Vladimir Mironov and three other researchers in his lab on Friday afternoon, a researcher said.

Mironov is on indefinite paid leave pending the results of an investigation into "a series of issues," MUSC spokeswoman Heather Woolwine said in a statement. She declined to elaborate, "given the confidential nature" of the inquiry.

A letter Mironov received from the university Friday said his suspension is a result of "unacceptable behavior" involving his contact with a research administrator at the University of South Carolina, which MUSC considered "an act of insubordination."

While the future of the meat lab remains uncertain, the suspension also calls into question the future of a separate project, a $20 million effort that aims to create human organs from a person's own stem cells.

Mironov had been one of the primary research forces behind that project, which was funded by a 2009 grant from the National Science Foundation. It is the largest sum the federal agency has ever awarded to South Carolina.

MUSC offered no comment Wednesday on the future of Mironov's role in that project.

A spokeswoman for the National Science Foundation said she would look into the issue Wednesday, but said she was unable to gather any information by the end of the day.

Mironov's meat lab has attracted national and international exposure in the past month, following the arrival of a new researcher whose work is being funded by the animal rights group People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals.

PETA gave a three-year grant to Nicholas Genovese in an effort to make so-called "cultured meat" available to the general public, reducing the number of animals killed for human consumption.

Genovese said Wednesday that he and his fellow researchers were blind-sided by the shut down.

oh, they think it's more

[quote]I'm not all like you describe. I'm an activist for various issues; in addition to being vegan I'm socialist, feminist, anti-racist, etc. Veganism fits in with my egalitarian, non-violent philosophy and lifestyle. I don't know any vegans like you described; if they were any if those things I would avoid them. Just as I avoid omnivores who expouse those views.

Well, you just showed that smug superiority that turns me off to you crazy vegans. Why not admit you have an eating disorder?

except, [115], I'm kind, open, not judgmental, informed, concerned about others, hot as hell, and always respectful when I get hit on (every ten minutes) no matter what the player looks like or my level of interest. You'd get used to me.

Here's an article I found interesting that was written by an M.D. who practices alternative medicine. He calls this sort of fixation on food "orthorexia nervosa."

[quote]Face it: meat (the kind any non-royal human can afford) is filled with aluminum (see 'pink slime').

Not all stores carry it. HEB, Costco and Whole Foods do not sell pink slime. Kroger recently announced their change from selling pink slime. I buy mine from a local butcher.

R122, standing up for an egalitarian, equal world makes me smug?! Um, okay! Would you rather I think and act like Mitt Romney? Damn! We vegans just can't win. I give up.

R104, let's not bother with trying to reason with this crowd. They will continue to stereotype and judge us vegans and act like the fundamentalists and freepers they constantly criticize. They fail to realize that many of us vegans are part of their community and are fighting for their (and our) rights.

R126...you are wrong about what makes you smug. It is your attitude about your belief that makes you smug, not the actual belief.

[quote]What I don't understand are those vegans and vegetarians who eat junk food. That's freaking disgusting AND unhealthy. Soda, chips, sweets, processed foods are empty calories.

This is my sister in law. She is a vegetarian PETA member but eats junk food like no tomorrow and rarely cooks. We are talking boxed mac and cheese type dinners. She cries over animal abuse stories and is entirely too emotionally involved with animals. Her employer even had a discussion with her about breaking down at work over these news stories.

She's got tons of other issues besides the above. She is a super control freak who gets freaked out if someone sits in "her" chair or uses "her" coffee cup. Always sick, takes anti-anxiety drugs, etc. She's recently adopted two pitbulls (she's of the "oh poor things have a bad rep" school of thought) which are at any moment ready to start tearing each other apart. She had one before this who she reluctantly gave back as it was eating her sheet rock and even she realized it wasn't meant to be a house pet but she agonized for weeks over it. Her house is also decorated with cute animal stuff all over.

Bingo, R127.

Hitler based the gas chambers on the slaughter house. Read "Eternal Treblinka" for a full examination of the relationship between societal treatment of animals and atrocities like the holocaust, slavery etc.

I'm a vegetarian. I don't make a big production out of it. People find out after they notice what I eat and start asking questions. Some people get judgemental and seem personally offended by my diet.

I've heard a lot about vegans and vegetariasn pushing their diets on other people but I've yet to see it. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but I haven't seen it with other vegetarians I know. I've only seen non-vegans and non-vegetarians being criticized by meat eaters.

R130, Hitler was also a vegetarian.

Hitler was neither vegetarian nor vegan. Vegetarian meals were a medical prescription for stomach problems in that era. He never stopped eating meat.

R132 - that is widely disputed.

Also, my post is meant to show the continuum of cruelty. Just like a serial killer often starts out being cruel to animals; cruelty to animals on a mass scale can also be the training grounds for atrocities towards humans. More info on the book "Eternal Treblinka" below

"The book carefully shows how the enslavement ("domestication") of animals became the model and inspiration for all the oppressions that followed. In particular. he documents a trail from slaughterhouse production lines to Henry Ford's assembly lines for the mass production of automobiles to Hitler's methods in the extermination of Jews during the Holocaust. He also discusses the myth of Hitler's "vegetarianism"--his diet of little or no meat he often followed to reduce his chronic health problems Throughout the book, Patterson is sensitive to the views of Holocaust survivors. Lucy Kaplan, the daughter of Holocaust survivors, has contributed an eloquent Foreword. An entire chapter profiles animal advocates who are Holocaust survivors, children or grandchildren of survivors, people who lost relatives in the Holocaust, and those who have given thought to the lessons of the Holocaust. Another chapter, "The Other Side of the Holocaust," discusses German and German-American animal advocates who began their lives in Nazi Germany. There is also a chapter on the exploitation and slaughter of animals as a major theme in the writings of Yiddish writer and Nobel laureate, Isaac Bashevis Singer (1904-91), many of whose characters were Holocaust survivors. The title of the book comes from a statement by one of Singer's characters: "...for the animals, it is an eternal Treblinka."

“What do they know-all these scholars, all these philosophers, all the leaders of the world - about such as you? They have convinced themselves that man, the worst transgressor of all the species, is the crown of creation. All other creatures were created merely to provide him with food, pelts, to be tormented, exterminated. In relation to them, all people are Nazis; for the animals it is an eternal Treblinka.” ― Isaac Bashevis Singer

R131, that's been my experience too. I'm the one's who's criticized (for not eating meat) but I never say a word to those who do eat it. My family is so disappointed in me, you'd think I'd been convicted of something vile like child abuse. I don't preach, I just choose a vegetable omelet instead of steak & eggs, but they react as if I'd just stabbed the waitress.

Talk about self-loathing & defensive responses born of latent fears (or something)....

Interesting premise, R134. It always surprises me that so many meat-eating urban dwellers are opposed to hunting.

Personally I don't comment on what others eat to them. It's rude. I hate people who feel they have to comment on something I'm eating. MYOB and I'll MMOB.

I've found very, very few Vegans actually do that though... they ALL look down their noses and cluck their tongues and wag their fingers, and lecture you at length about how morally inferior you are and how wrong you are to be eating meat.

Not Vegetarians. VEGANS.

My experiences with Vegans have been almost uniformly horrible (I'd say 98% bad... I have one vegan friend who is wonderful, never makes a fuss, never makes nasty comments, never makes you feel uncomfortable).

I think a majority of Vegans who are Vegans are actually either attention whores, or people with an OCD-Related eating disorder.

[quote]rock molasses

What is that?

R138, I agree that it's rude to comment on what others are eating & I never do that.

However, in half-hearted defense of vegetarians & vegans, I'll point out that we don't care about your eating habits, we just care about animals being killed. Kind of like the anti-abortion people -- even men have a right to oppose terminating the life of embryos, which are potential humans.

R139, that OCD comment clearly shows you don't know what you're talking about and that your opinions are suspect at best. I've worked with people with OCD. It's a very real and terrible thing, and you obviously don't have a clue.

I don't understand this raw food thing. Why don't you cook vegetables?

BTW, vegetables scream you know. I've heard them.

[quote]However, in half-hearted defense of vegetarians & vegans, I'll point out that we don't care about your eating habits, we just care about animals being killed.

Well, not true of all vegans & vegetarians, to be sure. You probably shouldn't speak in such sweeping generalizations, because it's so easy to disprove/debunk in that case.

R142, that sort of sanctimonious response isn't going to win you any arguments.

I know what OCD is. I also know there are a whole range of OCD behaviors. And when I see a Vegan friend spend 20 minutes grilling a waiter about every detail of the order, and demanding every little thing be separated out and on the side, and when she's bending over backwards to exercise complete "control", over and over, repeatedly... asking the same question over and over, … it's very OCD-like behavior.

Now take the stick out of your ass.

R139, despite what you think is a universally bad experience with vegans, the truth is that you quite likely interact with many vegans without knowing it.

Most of us don't tell people we're vegan, many of us don't shop at specialty vegan stores much, and many of us are really only 99 percent vegan, because as I said in my post above, when I'm invited to someone's house, I eat what they serve without comment.

Or if I go to an event at work, I pick out the vegetables without asking loudly if they were cooked in chicken broth.

This thread is a good example of why many of us are almost closet vegans: it's just easier to live our lives and eat what we want if other people don't have a label to put on us and a reason to hate us for something that isn't any of their business.

The mean-spirited, devisive vegans are ruining it for most animal activists. They are demanding that all activists go vegan or else leave the movement(which is unorganized anyway) and paint them as 'enemies.' Vegan activists are fracturing the cause and imposing their belief systems, pushing out other animal activists. They are also keen on making animal activism look as looney and unattractive as possible, sabotaging the movement. I really wish the sickly, weirdo vegan activists would stay home and not corrupt and sabotage the animal rights movement.

I went to a fabulous party a while back, and one of the host's closest friends was going on and on about her vegan recipes and such. In the middle of the party, she actually fainted in the middle of the dining room, right next to the table full of non-vegan goodies. I think she was overcome with the temptation of eating real food!

[quote] I know what OCD is.

You very obviously do not. I've worked on a day-to-day basis with people with OCD for years. It isn't being picky. It isn't a character flaw. It isn't a handy catch-all criticism to throw at people you don't like.

You're spouting disingenuous bullshit and you know it.

Um, R146, you are not a vegan. Eating anything when visiting someone at dinner makes you an omnivore. Period. Real vegans do not touch animal products. I think you are an example of a vegan activist type who, while not even being a vegan, pushes their agenda on others. I believe that most vegan activists are phonies who do eat meat/eggs/dairy on occasion but like the attention they get as pseudo vegans. Most people will become very sick on a vegan diet after about two years. I'm talking the real thing, not "well, I'll eat meat when I go to dinner," I'm talking real veganism. Read Lierre Keith's book "The Vegetarian Myth" about how veganism will destroy your health, as it did hers.

[quote]the truth is that you quite likely interact with many vegans without knowing it.

Nope. I don't interact with many people. I do interact deeply with the ones I do. And since most of my interaction with people actually surrounds meals and eating, I'm very aware of what people eat.

For the record, I frequently eat vegetarian meals. I've eaten at vegan/vegetarian restaurants and have had wonderful experiences there. I have a great many vegetarian friends.

The only ones that have ever been obnoxious, rude, or worse, have been the very few vegans I've been unfortunate enough to encounter (again, excepting one friend who is just an all around wonderful person and would never think of making anyone feel uncomfortable... she's a much better person than I am in many respects :-)

I agree with R147... the loud, mean-spirited, holier-than-thou vegetarians and vegans are ruining it for the rest of you (and us).

They're like the asshole meat-eaters that make vegetarians feel like shit for not eating meat.

While I see a lot of the latter (I live in Texas, where a vegetarian is typically defined as "someone who only eats chicken and pork"), but given the population, it's strange I see an equal amount of the former.

I'd say, for those trying to get more people to eat vegetarian (I personally don't think vegan is really a good diet for most people), that you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar... but, you know, honey isn't vegan. :-P

Oh, R149, get off your damn soapbox. You know damn well what I'm saying and what I mean. You're being just as bad as those fucking lecturing vegans, wagging their finger at everyone. YOU are the problem. STOP it.

Lierre Keith, admits she binged on eggs and dairy every chance she got but claimed it was being a vegan (which she wasn't) that made her sick.

You STOP spouting lies and bullshit R152. You know full well that what you're talking about has NOTHING to do with OCD, but you just couldn't resist throwing in a smug accusation of mental illness.

People with OCD have it rough enough without clueless assholes ascribing their condition to ever goddam person who irritates them. JUST FUCKING STOP IT!!

Good god, R154, take your meds.

I believe she did binge, as most activists secretely do, all the while promoting an unhealthy radical diet for others. I do believe her, however, when she discloses that her spinal problems occured due to veganism. That's because this is commonplace among vegans--osteoporosis of the spine, serious arthritis, or just wasting. At least she has come around and admits to lying and endangering other lives. And she LIKES vegans--Lierre often speaks about how veganism attracts young, compassionate, idealistic people, and how tragic it is to victimize them with the vegan propaganda.

I am a meat-eater. One of my best friends has been a vegan for almost 25 years and she doesn't lecture or impose her views on anyone and she's certainly not the mad raving fascist idiot that some here are trying to claim vegans are. I actually like going to restaurants with her because she knows some really good places (with meat on the menu but also with a whole range of other dishes).

Girls, girls, you're all tiresome.

R156, she wasn't a vegan.

R155, oh nice come back, completely lacking in any meaningful content, spiteful, small-minded and insulting. It fits you perfectly.

She was a part-time lacto/ovo vegetarian who was starved of protein and other nutrients.

Her self-starvation is what she had in common with vegans, who also develop similar health issues.

She also writes/talks about the mental health aspect of self-starvation through vegan/vegatarianism which is fascinating.

R150, why do you care what I eat?

BTW, if I'm invited to a dinner party three or four times a year and have a bite or three of animal-based food to be polite, as well as going to one or two work-events where they might be egg or chicken broth in something that looks like a vegetable, that doesn't make me an omnivore.

Five or fewer meals out of more than 1,000 meals a year does not redefine the choices I routinely make in my day-to-day life.

[quote]I think you are an example of a vegan activist type who, while not even being a vegan, pushes their agenda on others.

I'm not sure what leads you to assume I'm an activist or that I push my agenda on others, regardless of your or my definition of what constitutes a vegan.

You're making some pretty hilarious leaps of logic without any basis in fact, specifically the clear anger in your post over what I eat and what I call myself.

It's more than a little ironic that R150 and others on this thread who complain loudly about "vegan activist types pushing their agenda on others" appear to have a major problem allowing other people to eat or not eat what they want.

I want to marry R155, a voice of reason in an OCD world.

R162, actually, I was out of line and I apologize for it. You do sound like a nice person who has an interest in animals. I got riled up there for a minute. I care what you eat in that I know that veganism attracts great people, for the most part, who deprive themselves of nutrients. I won't go into detail about who I've lost in life, or whose life has been ruined, and I hate to see more of it. How do we get around our love for animals and nourish ourselves? Tricky question. And again, I'm sorry for being a jerk to you.

[140] Obviously I was using rock as a verb when I wrote 'rock molasses'. jk Eating high PH, leafy green vegetables (even though they are grown outdoors - what can you do?), blackstrap molasses (see above) in smoothies, rock salt (in moderation), whey protein, apple cider vinegar in clean (distilled) water (about a cap full), flax, are all good anti-radiation protocols. Also, on an empty stomach from time to time, drink a table spoon of baking soda with clean water. If you're up for it, follow with an apple cider vinegar chaser. Burp ass off, feel the acid disappear. These protocols are all about dealing with 'heavy metal toxicity' which is a result of meat eating and a direct cause of cancer. Fukashima did not help.

I'm R164, an I'm now crying. I knew that this discussion would end in tears. Is anyone else crying right now?

R160, Let. It. Go.

Thank you, R164, apology accepted. It sounds like we had a misunderstanding more than a major disagreement.

I do have an interest in animals, but I'm not an animal-rights activist, and I'm a vegan for health reasons.

I know there is a widespread perception that being vegan is unhealthy, but I read and re-read the works of Neal Barnard and Caldwell Esselstyn and others, and while it certainly takes work, it's not that difficult to eat a healthful vegan diet.

The great athlete Carl Lewis is vegan, along with a surprisingly large number of professional athletes, including Tim VanOrden, who is even a raw vegan.

But it's not my agenda to convince anyone else to eat or not anything. I just choose to eat plants, and I'm not sure why that's so controversial.

Sure thing R167, just admit you knew your were using OCD incorrectly and did it anyway, and all is forgiven.

When someone OBSESSES about every morsel of food they put in, and COMPULSIVELY asks the same questions over and over, even though they've gotten an answer, that's "obsessive compulsive" enough for me.

Now just admit you're an OCD freak who can't handle layman's language and has to be super precise about everything and this entire argument is all your fault for being such an uptight shit-head, purposely missing the meaning in order to debate semantics, and all will be fine.

Since you don't know the vegan in question, how can you possibly know she DOESN'T have OCD?

R170, I didn't miss the meaning at all you wacko. I called you on your lame misuse of OCD as an insult to slag off on vegans and you fucking freaked. This entire argument is exactly YOUR fault toodles, grow up, be a man, and admit it.

And your juvenile post at 171 doesn't even merit a serious response.

Wow, reading through this thread has been a ride down the loony slide.

It's kinda weird to watch two people have a private conversation (fight) on a public message board.

Chung Ho was vegan in North Korea because no food is not much around. It is very hard, but West eat too much. Chung Ho also get larger when he come to American. Vegan is good, but meat tastes much too.

I quietly scoff and don't believe anyone when they say they're totally vegan- gawd knows what the hell they eat when alone, people love to lie about diets! Many SF vegans 'sneak' a smoke and do the occasional bump, gorge on candy and cop a cheeseburger-hypocrites. Jack Benny face palm.

"I hope reports of Mad Cow disease can make vegans happy in the way actual food never will"

Thank Goddess, sisters, we make a yummy nutloaf at every Michfest, and all are welcome to partake!

Elite eater bump.

Nothing makes my mouth water like a nice sizzling steak on the grill. Mmmmmm.

[quote]I quietly scoff and don't believe anyone when they say they're totally vegan- gawd knows what the hell they eat when alone, people love to lie about diets! Many SF vegans 'sneak' a smoke and do the occasional bump, gorge on candy and cop a cheeseburger-hypocrites.

Of course we have no way of knowing how many vegans actually cheat on their diets, but it seems many, if not most, do.

When Natasha (I forget her last name) at voraciouseats.com gave up veganism and started eating a normal omnivorous diet, she received (in addition to death threats from vegans) many emails from "vegans" professing to cheat by eating eggs or fish.

The negative reaction from crazy vegans to Natasha's return to a healthy diet was so severe that she's since given up blogging and taken down her old writings. I'm sure she's happier now.

yawn more steak for me

[quote] I'm wealthy and cosmopolitan? Why didn't someone tell me?

It was in the newsletter

I don't mind the vegans, it's the paleo diet people who are freaks

Al Gore's vegan now, like Bill Clinton - see, it's for the snobbish elite.

how are vegans alive?

one needs animal protein to live.

they must be eating chicken in the closet.

I'm going on a vegan/yoga cruise in March. jealous?

I've been vegan for 6 years, with most of those years being a poor student. I don't think it's for rich people at all! You just need willpower and to not be lazy.

For me when I started out I also had to cook for myself for the first time, so it was a learning experience all around. I was lucky enough to already know the types of food that I like, so it was easy to know what to cook and what to skip at all costs.

I never talk about being a vegan unless I'm with friends and food choices come up. It seems like other people have a problem with the fact that I don't eat meat. I've never ever told anyone not to eat meat, but people seem to get so defensive about it. My whole adult life I've been vegan so this is all I know. I dont even tell people not to smoke or do drugs! I'm like "everything in moderation," lmao.

Why do people just hate all vegans without knowing why they're vegan?

Vegan is so over. It's all about raw eating now.

[quote]Vegan is so over. It's all about raw eating now.

Raw what, meat?

i would love to give up meat as i think as a race we should be beyond murdering beings for food. alas, i'm not a huge vegetable fan (so many are just bitter and awful tasting to me) so i remain complicit in the slaughter of innocents.

[quote]I'm going on a vegan/yoga cruise in March

The boat will be gas-powered, for sure.

Have you ever smelled the fart of a vegan? YEEEEESSSSHHHHHHHHH!

Judge people (if you must) by what they eat, not but what they DON'T eat.

*by

Veganisms new slogan: Going Vegan, not just something you tell wommin at Michfest.

R191 Are you paying for this or is this a sentence for some heinous crime

imagine how nasty vegan shits/farts are. bet they are epicly fowl.

My buddy, who's very wealthy and established and is a direct descendant of a famous industrialist, just went vegan, along with his beautiful wife. They were at a party with Kathy Freston, he said, and getting to know her changed everything. He does look really hot again... yum. Anyways, he recommended that I read a book by her, *Quantum Wellness*. Has anyone read it?

My best friend from Harvard has gotten his entire immediate family to go vegan, in part because his ex-girlfriend's father (he is still close with them) had a heart attack, and has gone vegan. His father lost 50 pounds (WTF) and feels "amazing".

Elites (nice ones at least). Maybe there's something to it, though.

Vegans are the equivalent of people who say they can’t live without meat and they don’t care how the animals are being treated. Both groups are wrong, although vegans at least only hurt themselves, while indifferent meat eaters actively support one of the vilest industries.

The decant thing to do is to only buy meat, dairy or eggs from places which do not abuse the animals. It takes a little research and probably means you will consume less of them and will have to learn about different kinds of food, but it will make you a better human being and a healthier one.

Go Paleo instead!

mmmm i hope chicken nuggets are vegan.

Hey vegans! I just ate a steak. Jealous?

But, unlike other wealthy-people things, it's not something poorer people are pining for.

This fad will pass.

Are they painting their skin as well? That fad is passing.

Sorry, OP some of us have been vegetarian or vegan for decades.

Also, look on Instragam. There is huge black vegan movement.

Veganism will always be around. There's a genuine base layer. Then there's the "fad" overcoat of people who are just on the bandwagon. That ebbs and flows, but there's a consistent structure underneath it.

Who has the statistics on Veganism and Vegetarianism?

1. The number of believers. 2. The years of belief.

I just saw my post from 2013 where I said I was going on a vegan/yoga cruise. I changed my mind and went on a Flying Kiwi Adventure tour of the south island of New Zealand for a month. It was awesome. I'm still in touch with people I met on the trip and New Zealand is gorgeous.

I ate mostly vegan but did eat cheese a few times just so I wasn't a pain in the ass.

R1 You EARN respect you bitter nasty queen, you can expect whatever you want, how egotistical you are. Plonk!

R25 I think you need to add a few benzos with all that, it sounds like it.

You do realize you’re responding to 8-year-old posts, right?

many people eat food

That makes me a wealthy, cosmopolitan elitist!