Embracing your alcoholism

Just wondering, what caused you to start drinking like this?

[quote]I decided to make this a shallow/silly post instead of a crying, whining, alcoholic thread. Does anyone feel like this? That you know you will likely always drink, so what do you do to try to keep up your looks AND consume a lot of alcohol?

Thank fuck, I dreaded some preachy thread when I clicked.

I decided around 20 years ago that my liver was evil and needed to be punished.

I blacked out from drinking recently and unexpectedly had a lot of negative emotions overtake me. I think I am done with alcohol.

I think it's sad to have given up that completely at age 38, OP.

You could live for 40 more years.

[quote]I think I will never be able to give up alcohol. Or maybe I will, but until then, I wonder how I can maximize the looks I have left?

I'd suggest moving to Las Vegas, meeting an attractive prostitute and having sex with her right before dying from alcohol poisoning.

You probably stink like a drinker. Good luck op.

[quote]Thank fuck, I dreaded some preachy thread when I clicked.

...and then...

Honest to God, buddy. There is a solution. I'm going to tell you right now. And all you have to do is follow a few simple instructions.

If you really want your life to be different, find someone who will tell you he is an alcoholic but hasn't had a drink in five years.

Ask this person if he goes to AA. You DONT HAVE TO GO, just find someone who does.

Ask if he has worked all 12 steps with a sponsor. YOU DONT HAVE TO WORK THEM, just make sure he has.

Then, just ask him to help you. That is all.

Find that person and do your best to do what he suggests for 90 days.

I fuck around about a lot of stuff on here, but never this.

I quit the shit in 1984 and went 20+ years sober, picked it up a few years ago, drank to epic proportions for two years and quit because it's a waste of time, money and life. it's like heroin for me, never enough, it's easier for me to stay sober than it is to control the intake.

I loath AA, and have done it on my own. AA always made me want to drink.

Anyway, my embracement is to not give in to it. Period.

Alcohol is a powerful drug and unfortunately it's an easy choice out there for people to abuse.

I agree with R4. You're worth more than this, OP.

Four little letters: meth.

Smoked.

You won't need to have or feel like having another drop of alcohol ever.

What are the 12 steps of AA?

Liza, you are so not 38!

R12, Google is your friend.

No reason to give this guy advice. The problem is self-correcting. A guy who says "I think I will never be able to give up alcohol." has no sense of control over his fate because he's too cowardly to try. NEXT!

r9=George W. Bush

Whatever the alcohol has done to your face and body, hon, is nothing compared to the mess you are inside. That's what it's all about.

If you're dead inside, and hiding parts of yourself for bizarre reasons behind walls of numbness, who cares if you're attending to yourself in the mortuary of your life like a makeup girl after you've taken care of your own embalming? Everyone in your life already knows you're an unreliable, self-murdering, pathetic wreck.

You know - an alcoholic.

Just relax and let yourself look like what you have decided you are.

It's just that I feel I must accept that I have the brain of an addict. And I did it to myself.

My brain will never function properly again. It will tell me over and over that I want to drink. And I expect it to tell me this for the rest of my life.

I've tried Naltrexone (which is actually a good drug for people that still have potential), and the other drug - the one that makes you horribly sick when you drink. I forget the name - starts with an A. Anyway, it just never stops.

I may go a day without it, or two weeks, or even three weeks - but then I just fall off the wagon. Again, and again, and again.

R1 - nothing. My life is not that bad, even.

I don't have terrible money problems, I'm otherwise healthy (today), I have people who love and care about me.

But my father and my stepfather both died of alcoholism. Both in their early 50's.

I don't want to accept this as my fate, but, after all these years of starting and stopping, starting and stopping...I almost feel resigned that this is what will kill me.

Maybe if you work hard in therapy you will reach a point where you begin to feel you have some value. AA helped me get sober. I couldn't stay with it after a few years but I don't think I could have stayed away from the booze without them.

I don't go anymore but have not had a drink in over ten years. Booze depletes your spirit and you end up in an endless loop of hopelessness and despair.

It also does ravage your body so I really don't think there are many tips to avoid it. I hope you do try to quit and stick with it OP.

Antabuse

I'd like to hear about your experience with Naltrexone and Antabuse. I feel like Antabuse is the only way I could ever really stop.

OP, have you tried MM? Moderation Management. A lot of people who don't respond to AA's "abstinence-only" approach have found some success with it.

[quote][R12], Google is your friend.

Seems like He- God is my friend from looking up the 12 steps.

I could've written your post myself, OP. Let me address your question. I would suggest moisturizing frequently, drinking plenty of water during the day when you are not drinking, and sticking close to home (or better yet not going out to drink) to minimize collateral damage. Good luck.

[quote]Embracing your alcoholism

Projecting much? Yes, I think so.

If you drink while taking antabuse, you can experience these symptoms:

Flushing Nausea Copious Vomiting Sweating Thirst Throbbing in the Head and Neck Throbbing Headache Respiratory Difficulty Chest Pain Palpitations Dyspnea Hyperventilation Tachycardia Hypotension Syncope Marked Uneasiness Weakness Vertigo Blurred Vision Confusion

Wow - I cannot believe that I am agreeing with MissHelenBedd's kind - and true - advice. Do it.

of course, R27. That is so much better than just finding someone who has been sober for five years and has a program and asking him for help.

Alcohol. It's a depressant and the merry-go-round will not end until you disembark.

I can't imagine getting back on that horrid ride again.

I feel your pain and self-disgust, here's a source of information that helps me.

Interesting that nobody has actually answered OP's question though, which is more of a health and beauty question than anything.

Exactly, R31. He doesn't want to know how to get healthy, he just wants to know how he can look better when he's unhealthy. It's kind of telling too, OP, that ultimately all you really care about is your looks. I gotta say - I never saw ANY drunk who held onto his looks. The only thing drunks hold onto is the belief that they're still hot shit, when they really just look like shit.

OP and other alcoholics, are you in one perpetual hangover when you're not drunk?

Listen to the poster who said you're only worried about if you look bad. Too much booze makes a mess of your insides. Especially your heart and liver. Ask your doctor about that.

GO fuck youself and die. Unless this a troll post, or attempt at (sick) humor, there isn't ANY goddamn good, cute, thing about being an alcoholic.

Vanity was the biggest motivator for me to quit smoking.

[quote]GO fuck youself and die. Unless this a troll post, or attempt at (sick) humor, there isn't ANY goddamn good, cute, thing about being an alcoholic.

Irony there. Perhaps your bitter and judgemental attitude contributed?

Please try, OP. My love died from it, and it was just so horrible and ugly and painful for everyone around him. I wouldn't wish it on a dog.

Embrace you alcoholism and wind up in jail, an asylum or just plain DEAD. One of those swell results will happen if you are an alcoholic !!! The only other way to go is, of course, is to GET SOBER !

You could go to AA, which is the best way, and it's FREE or you could go to a low cost alcohol rehab, a very expensive one costing something like $17,000/mo OR you can "white knuckle" it and try to quit by yourself !!

I don't have any reason to encourage people to try AA, but I can say from vast experience that people who stop drinking without a program or some kind of guidance on changing themselves inside are the biggest assholes on earth.

So really, if you want to get sober, do it in whatever way you want, but if you don't go to AA or to some kind of therapy or self-help program, do the world a favor and stay away from the rest of us.

[quote]That you know you will likely always drink, so what do you do to try to keep up your looks AND consume a lot of alcohol?

No, you fucking idiot, there is nothing that you can do to keep up your looks and consume lots of alcohol.

You are going to hit the wall hard at around 40 and your looks will be lost forever. There is no amount of plastic surgery or cosmetics that will undo years of alcohol abuse.

So accept the fact that if you continue to drink a shit-fuck-tonne of alchol, the you are going to be an ugly fuck in a few years.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Dry drunks are toxic.

Shhounds like a shhenshhible approach, OP! Let's shhelebrate!

*raises martini glass*

The bigger your liver gets, the more embracable it is.

[quote]I fuck around about a lot of stuff on here, but never this.

The real test is: do you refer to the women in your AA meetings as "fish" or "'fraus"?

OP, R8 gave you great advice. I hope your can find sobriety- it is so much better a way to live. You don't have to drink you know- as much as you think you do- you don't.

[quote]I don't have any reason to encourage people to try AA, but I can say from vast experience that people who stop drinking without a program or some kind of guidance on changing themselves inside are the biggest assholes on earth.

I can say from vast experience that people who make broad generalizations based solely on the relatively small (in the broader scheme) people they encounter in their personal lives are either myopic assholes or somehow manage to attract assholes into their lives.

AA has a 3% success rate

that translates into hundreds of thousands if not millions world wide R47.

I'm a very happy consistent drinker. about four drinks a night, maybe three, maybe a few more once a week. I've never blacked out or drunk driven and the worst thing I can think of ever having done is flirted witha straight guy who was just as drunk. And wasted money on hooch. Otherwise I'm a happy drinker.

honey, you have three or four drinks a night. Most of us spilled more than that.

R23, I really like that MM concept, and even though I didn't know it existed until just now, I've basically been doing just that for years now. I used to be a very heavy drinker (consumed easily a fifth of vodka a day, more if I actually went out), to the point that I finally had to go through inpatient detox, which took over a week. (Note: Detox is not the same thing as rehab; it's merely about getting you physically in a condition where your body isn't still reacting to the booze. I had the DTs after a couple of days and elevated blood pressure, so they kept me in longer than usual.) I followed that with IOP (intensive outpatient treatment) four nights a week for a month. After all that? Well, I concluded that I could control my drinking if I wanted to. And I did. It's been years now and I may lightly drink once every couple of weeks, and get past the legal limit maybe once every few months (obviously my tolerance is much lower now, too). I got a DUI while I was still drinking regularly, and haven't ever gotten behind the wheel while drunk since.

I certainly don't recommend this course for everyone -- my best friend has been completely sober for nine years and attends AA meetings at least once a week, often twice, and it's worked great for her -- but it can if, like me, you don't have a terribly addictive personality to begin with and no major underlying depression or anxiety issues.

Fran, it's as if you're at the end of a smorgasboard sucking cold juice off the prime rib platter (it's thawed and not fresh, you know).

Try a different addiction - LSD, working out, door to door Jehovah's Alibi, shopping, gambling, reefer, or skull fucking closeted republicans.

You know you have an addictive personality; make it work for you. It'll give your body a break until your next season of booze.

I would drink more, but it gives me gas.

Sorry OP. I am an ex model, 40 years old, and am in the same boat as you. I drink a couple of bottles of wine a night (as a 130 pound woman). I don't know how to stop. My physician gave me a prescription for Naltrexone, but I couldn't make it through the day on it. The side effects were horrible. I am embarrassed to go to AA. I take fish oil daily, a multivitamin, drink lots of water, exercise (really helps with hangovers), and get regular chemical peels. Physically, I still look great. Emotionally, I am a mess and have no friends left. I have considered treatment many times. Hopefully I will find it within myself to get help at some point. I hope you can too.

What r46 said.

I've been where you are, OP. You worry your drinking will destroy your looks.

You have nothing to worry about. Before you know it, you'll stop worrying about your looks.

[quote]Physically, I still look great.

You're probably delusional about looking "great". And if on the off chance that you look okay, this is the last year that you will look good. You're going to look awful in the next couple of years.

People look at it as if it's a finite thing. It isn't. You really do have to take it one day at a time. It's a cliche, but it's true. You take stock of yesterday, take from it the parts that were good, let go of the parts that weren't and every day is a new beginning.

If you view it that way it might help you. You are sick. You have a chronic disease. A condition. You deal with it by addressing it every day. Get someone to support you, keep up with your therapy, surround yourself and continue to do every day, all that you can.

You'll fail sometimes. You'll have bad days. But you will also keep getting stronger, and have more good days then bad. You'll have to be constantly vigilant, conscious,and aware. It's kind of like being a Diabetic. Every single day they have to do certain things, eat right, exercise, take insuln, etc.

You haven't yet made that commitment to yourself. You need to start now. Not tomorrow, or next week, or the first of the month. Do it now.You say you try to eat healthy, but how can you if you are half drunbk all the time. You need to eat healthy, take vitamins, and get yourself an exercise regimen. Vigorous daily exercise will do wonders for your frame of mind, OP. You'll look good too.

r54, what is preventing you from getting treatment? you say you've considered it, and you know you need it, so why not do it?

Fubctuioning alcholic here!

link for OP

You're pathetic, OP.

R54, I'm intrigued. Where do you live?

I had to scroll past about post 10 on, because booze threads attract the recovering alcoholics and though I love 'em to death, they can drive you insane with the type-type-type.

At 38 OP, the damage hasn't really gotten going, but from here on your life will be a train wreck. As long as you know that up front, I'd say go with it.

r62 is a bitch

The key is in these lines from the chapter "How it works" in the book "Alcoholics Anonymous":

"Rarely have we seen a person fail who has thoroughly followed our path......Those who do not recover are people who can not, or will not, completely give themselves to this simple program"

We did completely give ourself to that simple program and we have had a wonderful life without a drink or any other mood-altering drug('doctor-prescribed' or not) for many many years.

Get yourself to an AA meeting today!

R46 = dry drunk asshole

OP, I hope you manage to go out fast and without too much pain. Generally, unless you manage to die accidentally from doing something stupid when you're drunk, alcoholism can be a rough way to go.

As for your looks, I'm betting you already look a lot worse than you think. You might consider maintaining a fake tan to offset the not so lovely effects of cirrhosis that will increase over time. You might also want to try a cover makeup designed to cover disfigurements, such as Dermablend for the broken capillaries, which will get worse. Some alcoholics get very red-faced, and the Dermablend might also help with that.

I don't know anything you can do about the watery discolored eyes, jake-leg or any of the other less attractive physical attributes of chronic alcoholism. Maybe if you stay drunk enough, you won't notice these things as they happen.

Best of luck.

I hope you meant R39, Because that was the asshat, r67!

r54, your doctor should have given a 1/4th of dose then ramped up to a 3rd then to a half then the full pill if you could handle it. For many people half a pill is enough to avoid that more more more head. And you're supposed to continue drinking on it because that's the only way it can change your brain wiring. It's called The Sinclair Method and you should find a shrink who knows about it and give it another try.

R68 - that is actually the kind of post I suppose I needed to read.

R70 - you just told me something I didn't know about Naltrexone and that my doctor SHOULD have. That makes more sense.

To the poster upthread that said I needed to address this every day, as if I had diabetes, thank you.

And R54 - 2 bottles of wine is about where I am, as well. My method of alcoholism is to begin drinking fairly early in the day and "be done" by late afternoon so I can sleep better at night, though this doesn't happen often and alcohol still affects my sleep often.

Usually I don't drink before noon, but at least a couple of times a week I start around ten. Either way I make sure to pretty much run out of alcohol by five in the afternoon, when MOST people are getting started. So this keeps me at the liquor store every day.

I am at the liquor store so often that I see the same people (customers) in there almost just as often as myself. So, so many of us.

My booze is vodka and wine. Pint of vodka (minimum) or more per day, and if not vodka then about two bottles of wine as R54.

I really am tired of being sick.

OP, I think you're close to hitting bottom. Whatever you use to get sober, I hope it works for you.

I've been sober for a long time now and I highly recommend it. I would hate to go back to the hopeless life I had before.

I never dreamed I would see the day when I agreed with MHB, but I do. You can get sober using AA without getting into all of the groupspeak and other cultish behaviors you'll see at most AA meetings. I did. At its core AA is wonderful, so if you can find someone who will help you without demanding you get involved in the bullshit, you would do well to take advantage of that.

I'm on your side.

r71, please, give Naltrexone as used in conjunction with The Sinclair Method another go. Do a little Googling, there are discussions about people's experiences in various forums as well as case studies proving its incredibly high effectiveness rate. I think it's a really amazing scientific breakthrough and I wish more substance abuse programs in the US would follow scientifically proven methods like it as opposed to the highly ineffective 12 Step/Theology based programs.

R58 here. OP,have you ever watched a baby learn to walk? First, of course, they crawl. Some are really good at it. Fast. But one day they pull themselves up, hanging onto a chair or a coffee table. They stay that way for a while surveying everything, bouncing up and down, but they never let go of the table.

The few times their enthusiasm gets the better of them, and they have enough confidence to let go, they fall on their asses. They sit there and cry with frustration. Sometimes the stop pulling themselves up, and start crawling again. But that's temporary. They're gonna pull themselves up and grab onto that table again one day soon.

They figure out how to make their way around the room, by never letting go of the furniture. They go from table to sofa, to chair to table. Very limiting.

One day, someone holds out their arms, telling the kid, "You can do this! Trust me!" And the kid lets go and runs those three or four steps. And it works. He's real wobbly. He'll falls a few times, but he knows his days of hanging on to furniture or crawling are over. He has the confidence to let go.

Every day is new, OP. A gift. The Diabetic analogy was appropriate. Alcoholism is a disease and it requires daily maintenance. You have to exercise care. You have to be conscious. All those people you keep running into at the liquor store? Step back and really look at them. They can't let go. That's not you.

Interesting how mhb AND MPC both chimed in this thread about alcoholism and sounded fairly rational. Could they be the same person???

Abracé a mi alcoholismo y empezó a comer la concha.

duh, I dunno, R75.... wouldn't it be great if the people at DL somehow had some magic way to click on some button that would identify posts from the same person some way, say, er, I dunno, by highlighting them in a color.... like maybe yellow?

maybe one day they will think something like that up.

r77, David Dean Buttsmell clears his cookies.

We admitted we were powerless over alcohol—that our lives had become unmanageable. Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity. Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him. Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves. Admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs. Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character. Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings. Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all. Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others. Continued to take personal inventory, and when we were wrong, promptly admitted it. Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out. Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to alcoholics, and to practice these principles in all our affairs.

SmartRecovery.org has been my success story. A very helpful approach vs the AA approach. For me.

• Teaches self-empowerment and self-reliance.

• Provides meetings that are educational, supportive and include open discussions.

• Encourages individuals to recover from addiction and alcohol abuse and live satisfying lives.

• Teaches techniques for self-directed change.

• Advocates the appropriate use of prescribed medications and psychological treatments.

• Works on substance abuse, alcohol abuse, addiction and drug abuse as complex maladaptive behaviors with possible physiological factors.

• Evolves as scientific knowledge in addiction recovery evolves.

• Differs from Alcoholics Anonymous, Narcotics Anonymous and other 12-step programs

I quit when my doc put me on Seroquel. Been sober for over three years now.

AA made me want to drink. Nothing worse than sitting through one of those godawful meetings sober.

I found this online:

"Rarely have we seen a person fail who has thoroughly followed our path. Those who do not recover are people who cannot or will not completely give themselves to this simple program, usually men and women who are constitutionally incapable of being honest with themselves. There are such unfortunates. They are not at fault; they seem to have been born that way. They are naturally incapable of grasping and developing a manner of living which demands rigorous honesty. Their chances are less than average. There are those, too, who suffer from grave emotional and mental disorders, but many of them do recover if they have the capacity to be honest."

I initially got sober in AA. I have solid long-term sobriety, but I freely admit I hate Bill Wilson's writing, R83.

I also hate AA books, but I fucking love the meetings; tody I heard a lady I took for a boring elderly Jewish housewife tell about her years on the lam with her husband, and how the FBI tracked them down. . .she served them tea; but hers had vodka in it. I also love the people I've met in AA; actors, writers, agents, producers, construction workers, office workers, bums. I guess I learned that when you hear the truth about someone it just makes you like them.

I was 40 and miserable. Thought I looked great (I was also on 2 bottle wine a night or vodka). Now I realize I was bloated as hell. I like being sober. The only part that sucks hard is knowing how many opportunities I missed. For love, for buying a home here in NYC. It might still happen, but the odds go down the longer you wait.

So give up drinking. Or just go to meetings and don't say anything if you don't want to--no one will bother you. You're going to stop drinking one day, and you might as well do it while you're still alive.

I got sober at 38 and have been sober for three years.

The first year I felt amazing from a physical standpoint, but a little weirded out emotionally. The last two years have been the best of my life. In love with brilliant/beautiful man, loving life, and I finally have the career I want.

All those years wasted due to self-loathing & a complete 'fear of life'... I shudder at the memories.

Try Lifering OP. I know how scary it is to give up drinking, but you can do it (you have to want too)

[quote]You're probably delusional about looking "great". And if on the off chance that you look okay, this is the last year that you will look good. You're going to look awful in the next couple of years.

Sorry, but this is yet another broad generalization. Some alcoholics, or at least ones who aren't geriatric, still manage to look pretty good, thanks only to genetics. Smart alcoholics (if you don't consider that an oxymoron) know to drink a shit-ton of water, exercise as much as possible, moisturize and shower enough so that people don't find out the truth by "smelling it on you." (Even vodka, falsely believed to be odor-proof, seeps through your pores if you drink enough of it.) I say all this as a former drunk who's met them all, from decrepit lushes to gorgeous people of both sexes whom I'd never guess, from a surface look, had any issue with alcohol or drug abuse.

[quote]We did completely give ourself to that simple program and we have had a wonderful life without a drink or any other mood-altering drug('doctor-prescribed' or not) for many many years.

Yes, but like so many ex-drunks, you've transferred your addiction to something else. For most AA types it's smoking; in your case it's uncut pinga.

alcohol is just sugar--just picture your drink as four donuts because that's the amount of crap you are puttng into your precious, god-given body.

booze makes your body yeasty, so you yeast-bags are not hot or good looking, you look YEASTY.

drunks smell bad too, as your liver is working overtime trying to maintain some balance in your YEASTY-ASS body.

alcoholics suffer from low serotonin levels, which is why they can't stop drinking, or want to die, or create another addiction.

sugar destroys your serotonin levels--aa will tell you to eat loads of sweets when you stop drinking but THEY ARE WRONG--you need to eat whole foods and exercise to stay off the booze.

p.s. I love you, and am praying for all of you who are struggling with addiction.

You're sweet, R89.

OP here. My main issue along with drinking is co-dependency with another alcoholic. So it feels impossible at times to imagine that I could go back to a better, sober life.

I DO smell yeasty - wow. Sometimes I really notice this, especially after drinking way too much wine or beer. My partner drinks about 1/5 of vodka per day for the last 20 years. He can get straight out of the shower and will still reek.

Why do people drink? I have never understood it.

I have been diagnosed with chronic pancreatitis. It is the worst thing I have ever experienced...in utter pain much of the time...totally dbilitating syndrome. Also puts me always at a high risk for developing pancreatic cancer.

I was not what most would call an "alcoholic", but I drank a fair share, especially on weekends. I did that for years.

The minute I got out of the hospital during my first stay, I quit drinking, cold turkey. No AA, no nothing. It has now been almost a year and I have not had a drop of alcohol. I even now look for mouthwash that is alcohol-free. The slightest bit of alcohol could give me an acute pancreatitis attack, which could kill me. That was motive enough.

My pancreatitis was caused not by alcohol, but by gallstone attacks and several stones got into my pancreatic duct and blocked it and did a lot of damage. However, heavy alcohol use can also lead to pancreatitis.

Be careful, OP. You do not want to go down this road, and you do not want to stop drinking due to pancreatitis. However, the fact that I was able to stop the way I did, with no desire to drink at all just shows that it can be done.

"Yes, but like so many ex-drunks, you've transferred your addiction to something else. For most AA types it's smoking; in your case it's uncut pinga."

And you know this how? Almost all AA rooms are smoke free. Not one recovering alcholic I know smokes- I know about 20 very well- because I am one myself. AA is about treating addiction- and that pretty much covers all addiction if the recovering alcoholic or addict uses the process well. I think you are confusing the smoking thing with the fact that alcoholics are more likely to be smokers- while active.

R89- alcohol is not sugar- it is alcohol. It is not metabolized in remotely the same fashion- it is dependend on an enzyme called alcohol dehydrogenase and a complex enzyme system in the liver that has nothing to do with carbohydrate metabolism (or sugar.) Alcohol also has nothing to do with yeast other than the fact that some yeasts can produce alcohol. Yeast is an organism. Alchohol is an organic compound. Alcohol ingestion does not cause yeast to be produced anywhere in the body.

Whitney Huston was an alcoholic- among other things. I wonder how she was trying to make it work for her?

Alcohol, yeast and sugar are all nouns.

I first got sober back in '96 specifically due to my appearance: red face, bloodshot eyes, bloated, reeking of alcohol. I drank about 2 bottles of wine an evening and vodka or gin, as well (I am a female).

Yes, it all came down to appearance. I'm glad that I was vain and made myself get sober because I wouldn't be were I am today: happy, healthy and content. No, I don't have a lot of money, a great guy, etc. But what I do have is peace and contentment --- and as everyone knows, you can't buy those things with money.

For those of you still out there and wanting help: do try to go to an AA meeting. It was the only place that I didn't experience the all-encompassing feeling of shame that I felt amongst people who just didn't understand why I did the things I did when I was drinking. And to the ex-model who is embarrassed to go to AA: everybody at the meeting is also an alcoholic and trying to get help. There is nothing to be embarrassed about.

Try different meetings everyday until you find a group or person that you can relate to and feel comfortable around. You don't know how good life can be until you get rid of the alcohol and start (very slowly) working on the issues that drove you to drink.

When you go to AA, do you really have to introduce yourself, and say "my name is x and I have been sober for zero days?"?

No, r96.

Yes, r96

When you run into someone from AA by chance do you have to pretend to have never met them before?

Ok, I'm not really an alcoholic but when I drink I tend to over do it so I going to say that I have a very addictive personality. I, like you, at one time believed that I would NEVER be able to stop being to stop using drugs. I tried NA off and on and several attempts using my own methods. Nothing worked. One day I decided to go to NA and to what they suggested which is 90 meetings in 90 days. For some reason it worked. I continued going to the meetings for a couple of years but never really "worked" any of the steps except the first and second one.

It's been 19 years and I'm still clean. I haven't been to a meeting in at least 16 years -- I can't remember. But I did use the program to help me stop using. But it wasn't until I believed in my heart that I COULD NEVER STOP USING that I was able to be willing to try whatever it took to stop. There is no cut and dried way to quit, you just have to be truly willing to try.

Good luck in whatever you choose to do.

[quote]My main issue along with drinking is co-dependency with another alcoholic ... My partner drinks about 1/5 of vodka per day for the last 20 years.

OP, how on earth did you not feel it relevant to mention this earlier?? It'll be hard enough for you to get sober on your own, but nearly impossible if your partner has been a full-on drunk for two DECADES. Someone said earlier that you sound like you're near rock-bottom; after hearing this tidbit I disagree. You need to have the will not only to get sober, but to leave your partner -- completely, as in totally cutting him out of your life -- if he's unwilling to go sober.

[quote]alcohol is not sugar- it is alcohol. It is not metabolized in remotely the same fashion

True, but alcohol certainly affects your blood chemistry and insulin levels (your body stops producing insulin in order to combat the internal abuse from the alcohol, which in turn causes low blood sugar levels), and it is not at all uncommon to experience sugar cravings in the weeks (or even months) immediately after getting sober.

[quote]And you know this how? Almost all AA rooms are smoke free. Not one recovering alcholic I know smokes- I know about 20 very well- because I am one myself.

R93, I don't know if you're being disingenuous or simply live in an area where anti-smoking Nazis are out in force, but I've been to numerous AA meetings and know numerous people in the program, and like I said, most of them smoke. No, there are no actual meetings (in my area, at least) where you can smoke inside, but numerous people gather outside to smoke before and afterwards.

[quote]When you go to AA, do you really have to introduce yourself, and say "my name is x and I have been sober for zero days?"?

No. You don't have to say a thing if you don't want to, but most people would probably argue that AA is more effective if you do speak up, at least if you're able to be honest both with yourself and others at the meeting.

R99, most people do not respect the "anonymous" tradition, so no you don't.

OP=Liza

Victim. I ain't falling for it whore. Quit drinking or get another bottle and shut up. Your type is a dime a dozen

Damn R104, who fucked you over?

I once went to an AA meeting for "professionals." I wasn't there 10 minutes before the person next to me was whispering to me "Recognize him? He's the news anchor on Channel..."

I walked out and never went back.

R106, anonymity does not apply to other recovering alcoholics, only outsiders.

You're all in those rooms for the same reason, so there's no need to hide from each other.

R99, you don't have to pretend you don't know each other. I've run into a situation a number of times where non-alcoholics have asked me how I know another person. I always say we met through mutual friends, which is the truth.

"your body stops producing insulin in order to combat the internal abuse from the alcohol, which in turn causes low blood sugar levels"

A completely false statement. I am a professional-

"I don't know if you're being disingenuous or simply live in an area where anti-smoking Nazis are out in force, but I've been to numerous AA meetings and know numerous people in the program, and like I said, most of them smoke."

NYC here- recovering alcoholic for 10 years. Another false statment. No "smoking Nazis", just a no smoking policy, and as I said, most alchoholics I know do not smoke. In fact all of them- those who I would call friends as I said in my last post. Like the general adult population in NYC, smoking has pretty much disappeared.

The OP's post and his "humor" and approach, if not a troll post, is very sad.

I was a seriously heavy smoker when I got sober, and that was back when most recovering people were smokers.

After I was sober for about a year and the fog began to clear, I realized that hanging onto that addiction was antithetical to my recovery.

A few of my recovering friends still smoke, but most of them have quit.

OP, I got discouraged on page 1 with no one giving you the advice you asked for so skipped to the end. Forgive me if this is repetitive.

On how to save your looks, well, we're all on borrowed time, but you are accelerating the aging process. Invest in a good moisturizer, eye cream and anti-wrinkle serum. Treat yourself to spa facials every month.

During the day drink tons of water. At least 64 oz. during the day. Not at once, spaced out every other hour.

Eyedrops. Not Visine, which is habit forming, but a moisturizing eyedrop like Systyne, to take the red out of your hungover, sleep deprived eyes.

Low carbs. You are getting more than your fair share of carbs from booze and are probably borderline diabetic, if not already afflicted. Don't eat any white foods (bread, pasta, potatoes, white rice, anything made with white flour). Your only carbs should come from fruits and vegetables. High carb diet adds to the bloating.

Exercise. The endorphins you trigger during a good workout may actually prevent you from drinking. Just a theory. In any event, an hour a day of exercise will help slow your alcoholic weight gain.

Teeth whitening. The acid from the booze eventually turns your teeth brown. Get them professionally whitened every few months.

That's all I can think of right now. Good luck!

LOL, thanks January Jones!

Those are good tips.

The AA meetings I go to are only about 50 minutes long but they have to have a smoke break halfway through it. Never understood that.

Good advice, January!

January's advice is like putting a band-aid on a severed artery.

My sister is an NP. Just last week we had a discussion about the evils of drinking. She said, health wise, smoking pot is much better for you. Those broken capillaries on your face are occurring inside your body as well. At some point they will cause internal bleeding and organ failure.

R112

In NYC they usually are 1 hour. In 11 years, not once, have I been at a meeting with a cigarette break.

If you are in a medical marijuana state, eating mj edibles would work better than smoking it. Marijuana is much better than alcohol for you, if they are interchangeable. It just makes me sleepy.

I used to go to the gay men's AA meetings in NYC and it was like being in a gay bar without alcohol. Very cruisy. There were some very hot, but very damaged guys. Think Erik Rhodes types.

I attended a small-town New England AA meeting for a while. Mixed, all types of people. I also picked up a cruise-y vibe from many people and noticed a lot of eye-action going down at these meetings between straight people too. Just an interesting observation.

I imagine some addicts go for another high...sex, crushing on someone, fantasy, etc.

R118- a bit in some of the Chelsea meetings- but I think you are mostly projecting. Guys go to AA meetings, gay meetings, because they are alcoholics trying to stay sober- and get better, overwhelmingly- not cruise. Many of them succeed.

I don't know in whose world R108 lives in, but I certainly would not even remotely make a statement "like the general adult population in NYC, smoking has generally disappeared." Granted, it is not as blatant as it used to be, but there are tons of closet smokers and a large number of clubs, despite the ban, are still filled with cigarette smoke. The bartenders look the other way and so does everyone else, apparently.

My friend buys his crack from a guy who hangs around outside of NA meetings.

The cruising (known as 13th Stepping) can be a problem for a newcomer if it gets in the way of his recovery. A good sponsor can do a lot to help steer him away from the predators.

Try LSD, OP. Seems it's being touted as the new "cure."

I blacked out from drinking 4 times before even turning 18.. you could say I had a trouble with alcohol and acting out.. I grew out of it though.. or grew up is maybe a better phrase, and now I hardly ever drink.. but I still have an addiction: food. I eat way too much and unhealthy food, and I have gained weight.. I'm not fat or anything, but I know I will be if I continue like this.. yet I don't know how to stop, because food is comforting.. damn.. that was depressing, sorry you had to read that.

I honesly don't know OP.. just try to get a lot of sleep, socialize, be with friends, try to do stuff that makes you happy and doesn't involve drinking.

R101 I wish there was a way I could thank you.

[quote]Smart alcoholics (if you don't consider that an oxymoron) know to drink a shit-ton of water, exercise as much as possible, moisturize

Even if you don't drink, I hope all you bitches moisturize all to fuck!

[quote]I loath AA, and have done it on my own. AA always made me want to drink.

You are an alcoholic. You have already admitted you can't stop drinking. You really cannot afford this shitty attitude toward AA, which is an easily accessed, free, and drug free group therapy sort of treatment. Try working on your lousy attitude and try it again. Lots of really hopeless people are able to stay stopped and live non-miserable lives. Desperation is your friend.

The big problem here in English-speaking meetings in Europe is that most of the fish do not even belong in AA. They use it as a 'safe' way to meet men. If you listen to their shares there is usually not a word about having experienced alcoholic excess/suffering.

We are trying to keep these obvious non-alcoholics out of our meetings because they have nothing to share with us and we have nothing to share with them. They are a waste of time and very harmful to AA - which is based on DRUNKS sharing with DRUNKS. It can not be 'come one, come all', that was tried about 100 years ago(the Washintonians) and failed totally.

I remember reading that Charlie Sheen's ex, Brooke Mueller, used to go to AA meetings to meet wealthy men. I suppose it would work if you went to the right neighborhoods, and you were low life enough to use AA as match.com. In any case, I wanted to share something that has been working for me this week. I picked up a bottle of 5htp on a whim, and I have been taking it daily. I have noticed that I have had an easier time cutting back since I have been taking it. I usually have 1.5 to 2 bottles of wine nightly, and I have been content with .75 to 1 bottle this week. It is still early in the game, but I really feel good. I can't even imagine what it would feel like to be able to cut out the booze altogether.

Hard to believe you didn't recover from your hatred/envy/jealousy of women, R129, after all those years in therapy.

Sad, really.

I can't imagine anyone faking this disease by going to AA meetings in the hopes of meeting someone. That is pathetic. Because it is so manipulative! Fuck.

OP here. I'm two days not drinking. Not "sober" ... just not drinking. I took my Naltrexone yesterday morning and had forgotten how extremely effective that drug is at literally KILLING the desire to drink. Unfortunately it also exacerbates my insomnia and my eyes were open all night. I never slept.

Didn't take it today and still no drinking. I smoked a small bowl of weed and made myself some cheese enchilades with chili gravy for dinner. My alcoholic BF is at his place for the evening, I'm not drunk, ate what I wanted and didn't feel guilt over it (much) - and watched my OC Housewives. Fuck it, what a life eh? But I have not had a drink.

Um, MPC actually is correct. I stopped going to AA in the city im in because the fish kept hitting on me. Being clean cut, long time sober professional and straight acting single im a magnet and it is tedious and actually a curse.

There are no gay meeetings where I live now, but as you know Im returning to NYC this summer and I cant wait to return to exclusively gay mens meetings there - SANS FISH.

Right on, OP.

Yeah, Mhb, I'm quite sure you're just the straightest acting guy out there who also happens to refer to himself as "Miss"!

Shaddup ya fool!

Women are attracted to gay men because they give off a 'safe' vibe. Once they understand that you are gay, they either run away or hang on and want to talk about sex and fashion......

nice r128, belittling, ingratiating insults are not part of the 12 step program. You're a lousy spokesperson.

Why don't you just tell the women that you are gay? The term fish is offensive, and should not be used, by the way.

Naltrexone? weed?

You are correct, Mary 132, you definitely are NOT sober!

mhb and Mrs. Patrick Campbell, two of the worst misogynists on DL, are both in AA?

Apparently they both forget to practice these principles in all our affairs. Resentments kill alcoholics.

[quote]mhb and Mrs. Patrick Campbell, two of the worst misogynists on DL, are both in AA?

Explains a lot. Dry drunks can be nasty pieces of work. I run far from them.

You're right, R141. As people in AA say, "Some of us are sicker than others."

Both of those guys need a good sponsor.

Sponsor? Why would an advertiser help?

My mother always said, "Feelings are like treasures, so bury them."

Actually you can be a member of AA without using a sponsor or doing the steps.

True enough, and then you can become a white-knuckler like George W. Bush.

He's a great example of what happens when someone quits drinking without making any changes in his life.

R146, so you're saying that anyone who doesn't "do the steps" ends up like Shrub?

"Once an alcoholic, always an alcoholic."

After all, sobriety in itself is not a way of life. It is simply the absence of intoxication. It is what one does with his sobriety and his life that is important.

R147, not necessarily the steps. Carl Jung wrote about people who had profound spiritual experiences that completely altered their lives. He believed that was the basis for recovery from alcoholism.

I've known people who were able to bring about a spiritual/psychic change in their lives without working the 12 steps or ever going to an AA meeting. For most, having guidelines like AA and its steps probably makes that easier to accomplish.

R19, you are right, one needn't go to AA to recover from alcoholism--that's just a threat from control freak alkies.

Now, AA is great at first for some because it gets you out of your house and onto a schedule.

Getting to a meeting on time and being around other people is really very theraputic. But you can throw all of the other crap away--the steps, the "sponsors"(i.e other unreliable, mentally-disturbed drunks)the forced sharing, the prayers (what in the world do non-Christians do?) and the mindless slogans.

AA has outlived its time, but its still good to get out amongst people.

R150, I put AA's steps and traditions in an entirely different category from its ritual and platitudes.

Bill Wilson became a member of the Oxford Group and that's where he learned the teachings that became the foundation of AA. Wilson had an unfortunate inability to separate spirituality from churchianity, which plagues AA to this day.

Having a sponsor was far more vital when there were fewer people in recovery and not many resources were available. Having someone who had made a commitment to helping a newcomer in his recovery process was a valuable asset at the time. Not so much now.

The praying thing always made me a bit crazy, even though I've known people who said it was important for them. I've always thought prayer should be indulged in privately, if at all.

I do believe that one of the most valuable things that people can receive from AA is being around all of those other people who are in the same boat you are. That's the true meaning of anonymity, that everybody is there for the same reason. It's very powerful and goes beyond all of the surface stuff.

People with other types of medical/psych conditions get actual treatment, while those with an addiction are forced to make do with "spiritual" mumbo jumbo.

Inneresting R152. I would love to see more r & d put into meds that could stop cravings for alcohol.

It's probably extremely difficult to pinpoint specific cravings, such as alcohol.

Would you really want all of your cravings removed? I sure wouldn't.

Yes, R154. You are clearly are not an alcoholic and have no loved ones plagued with it. They would do ANYTHING.

Exactly what "cravings" are you so addicted to that makes the living hell of alcoholism worth it?

You don't have to CRAVE food or sex to enjoy them.

[quote]Nice r128, belittling, ingratiating insults are not part of the 12 step program. You're a lousy spokesperson.

I am not insulting anyone. I thought that the OP's attitude, for someone in dire need of assistance was lousy. It's called an "obvious observation" among grown-ups.

I am not a spokesperson for anything (see? I sign my posts "Anonymous") My point is that when we are in crisis about anything important in our lives, that is not the time to decide to critique all of our current options. I say grab a bucket and start bailing, and worry about the color of the bucket later.

In the larger picture, most addicts/alcoholics are control freaks already, so just being a small part of any sort of supportive group is difficult for them, yet nobody HAS to do anything in AA. There's nobody to report to officially, it's just people trying not to self-destruct. "Take what you like, and leave the rest" is frequently heard, and the whole thing thrives on talking about one's individual experiences, as a way that might help others.

Addiction is the most self-involved nonsense ever, so it is wildly difficult to convince those still in denial or despair that there's anything larger, or more important than their particular expertise on how to stay miserable.

R155, I am an alcoholic with years of good solid recovery. That does not mean I never want to have another craving.

So far, I have recovered from alcoholism, drug addiction and a major nicotine addiction.

I woke up at 3 a.m. two nights ago knowing I had to eat some of the salted caramel gelato that was calling me from my freezer.

Given a choice between cravings and the sheer monotony of no more 3 a.m. gelato, I'll take a craving any day.

Maybe it's because I know I can recover if a simple craving becomes more than that.

Am a recovering alcoholic trying to slow down after an 8-day bender relapse. Finally ended a 26-year relationship after I found my partner lying and cheating (again) and thought I needed to throw myself a pity-party. Now feel ten times as shitty as I did 8 days ago but am afraid of the DT's.

This thread might be keeping me alive.

But the big news is that MHB/MPC/DDB aka the cuntiest cunt who ever cunted, is in recovery. I always suspected that s/he/it was a closeted good person.

OP, I wish you well, but have nothing to add beyond what's been suggested.

What a coincidence, Miss r158, our last 'slip' was over a pinga also. It lasted maybe two weeks and it was no fun at all, we could not seem to get drunk. We look back now and can not believe we would do such a thing over a pinga but at least now we have not taken alcohol or any other mood altering drug(not even "doctor-prescribed")since 1978! And we have had an incredible life as a result of AA and enjoyed large amounts of the most magnificent sizemeats in the world! Get yoursef to an AA meeting and give your phone number to three new-comers NOW! And remember the words of the immortal Sophie Tucker: "No one man is ever going to worry me"!

The most balanced AAs are the ones who don't base their social life around "the program", and keep a healthy distance from sponsors and the steps.

If you ever watch a person bleed to death because of alcoholism, you might get turned off by JD.

It's usually lesbians who are alcoholics. The gay mens like the harder stuff.

OP here. Thanks to anyone still interested in this thread.

Also, my original post was somewhat sarcastic; I do care a great deal what I look like but obviously I know that getting healthy is most important.

Letting go of my partner, who does not want to get sober, is something that I have to do and it has literally been killing me. I have posted about it on the DL before.

I'm going to AA tonight. Not my first time, but the first time in a few years.

My plan is to get a few weeks of true, honest sobriety under my belt. No weed, either. Though I feel it is greatly superior to alcohol.

Once I have established this, I plan to tell my partner that he has to either get medical help (he is so hardcore with the vodka I believe he could die from detox) and do anything it takes to stop, or we are done. I want to show him how serious I am by showing him I mean to take care of myself, first.

He is a "maintainer". I also once knew a dentist who fit this category. My partner begins drinking early, around 9 am EVERY SINGLE DAY. He has not missed a day in about two decades. He achieves a buzz, then nurses it until he falls asleep at night. So he is pretty much drunk all day, every day.

Looking forward to this meeting in an hour.

What is JD?

Good luck to you OP- most of the opinions on this thread about AA are way off the mark (although a few capture it). Decide for yourself. I have had a great life since I got sober with the help of AA- and continue to go to meetings. It does not run my life, rather helps me to live the best life I can. As you know, AA is not a club, it does not have rules, it does not even have members. It has not affiliations with any organization and is totally run by those who go to its meetings. It is all about alcoholics helping other alcoholics stay sober and lead good lives. Nothing less, nothing more. AA is the least judgemental group of people (in the context of meetings) I have ever come across in my life. All the best to you.

JD=Jack Daniels

R165 you're obviously an expert on the AA. Thanks for setting us str8.

Thanks R165.

It was a good meeting. I'm hitting one tomorrow, as well. Yes - I have never felt judged in AA either years ago or now. And the people-watching aspect is interesting. Mostly it is just such a...relief from this disease for an hour...to be in a room full of others who have been where I am and are committed to doing the next good thing for themselves EVERY day.

That makes me feel good.

And, I feel really fucking great that I spent another evening without my partner and without wine or vodka. Me and the Atlanta Housewives tonight all the way, nothing more!

Good luck to you. Everyone reaches their own personal crossroads in life eventually. I know I did with hard drugs. I had a cousin who drank himself to death. He had always been a depressed person and it started with a few broken capillaries. It evolved into gin blossoms on his nose and blisters on his face. Eventually the alcoholic poisoning was complete and his body succumbed. It's not a pretty trip. But I can tell you're not in the shape he was in. But if I could do it, anybody can.

One day at a time...

Not today, maybe tomorrow...

Op, I'm 39 and an alcoholic, nicotine addict, and a weed addict. I love drinking, I love smoking cigarettes, and I love smoking joints. Nobody close to me really realizes how fucked up I am in regard to the drinking. My partner thinks I smoke and drink too much, as do my parents, but none of them know just how fucked up I am in terms of realizing how addicted I am nor how fucked up my head is (not from these vices, but just always has been). I cannot afford rehab, and AA deters me because of the religiousy aspect of it - and whatever step it is where you have to make ammends with people who you've fallen out with...well, fuck that, I am not friends with those people anymore for whatever reason. I have no intention in digging through the past and dragging up things that were laid to rest a long time ago. I realize that if my life leads me to a premature, Whitney style death, that lots and lots of people will be devastated. But there is nothing I can do about that. This is my life and am living the way I know how.

I guess you showed them, R106. Im sure they ask each other every week where you are and repeatedly scold that person for forcing you out of the meeting.

how's sobriety, btw?

So long as I live longer than my folks, hell, something is going to kill me; may as well be drink. However, if you have the strength and drive to quit, I hope you manage to and turn your life around OP.

I guess I'm just too comfortable coming home after work and drinking away the outside world.

The only thing sorrier than an old drunk is a young drunk.

I think a bottom (come on now, no tired puns!) is not so much an event but the realisation that you can't live your life the way it is one more second.

OP, you scared the shit out of me. On the order of Julianne Moore Level Seriousness. I posted earlier about my self-pity, yadda, yadda. I will be taken to a detox center on Monday. $3,000 and double miles. Four days of dope and re-hydration. Then I'll be back to the AA program and meetings which I actually liked in my big gay, liberal city.

Am calling it "Greek Rehab". Cheap, probably unprofessional, they will want you to marry your own cousin, and then there is always the promise of shame.

I want off this fucking Merry-Go-Round, dammit. And I need a doll. Just give me a doll now, faggot. I'll take your wig outta the toilet, I promise.

Good luck r176. Please come back and let us know how you are doing. You give us dreaming alkies hope.

R176 I feel for you - what do you mean by a doll?

Dolophine

*sigh* @r178, please enjoy your beautiful twinkhood while it lasts.

I'm signed up for Monday detox and will post next week. Am so happy that the OP is not going to just give up. When I was 38, that was my same sentiment. While CoverGirl Foundation and anti-shine powder works for a few days, getting sober is really the best beauty tip.

Am so over this. Am also so over the lying, etc. bf of 26 years. Yeah, bitch is probs reading this here. I know, me=Mary!

r177, you are my main purpose for living next week.

I believe that we can all get over this if we sing like wounded black women. And quit drinking.

R176 R180 - please come back and post. Let us know how you are when you're feeling better.

On March 1, I taped a piece of paper to my bathroom mirror. At the end of each day I've written down the date - if it was a day I didn't drink. This month I have fourteen days so far. That hasn't happened in over a year.

Seeing those dates scribbled down and knowing they were GOOD days because I wasnt' killing myself is awesome.

Focusing on the good and doing the next right thing.

I can't resist that first drink. When I start I can't stop. My life, therefore, is hell. Since I can't do those two things, I'll let her do it, my higher power.

I can't. She can. I'll let her. Steps 1, 2, and 3.

Call AA mumbo jumbo, call it hokum, call it late for supper, but it works for me. I call it my life saver.

In my alcoholic brain, my thoughts and feelings are a hamster breathlessly running on a turning wheel. How do I let that little guy get off the treadmill and take a rest?

AA meetings.

They provide a place for me to get out of my fucking head, which, for every alcoholic, is a very dangerous place indeed; almost as though I'm behind enemy lines.

At AA meetings, I don't pre-occupy myself, while another person is speaking, with wondering "what am I going to say when it's my turn?" I forget that hamster and really listen, with all my heart and mind, to another human being who has the same type of brain I do- an alcoholic one.

I spent so many years believing I could "figure it out"; my alcoholism, that is. I figured it out, alright- how to relapse and relapse and relapse.

I'm still working my fourth step. I found out I resented (emphasis on past tense) existence, or, if you prefer, God. I found out I resented my parents, myself, my community, every person that ever slighted or harmed me. No doubt, I've been on the receiving end of very painful behavior perpetrated by other human beings. I gave, however as good as I got; probably more so. When I contemplate the hurt I've caused, I shudder.

Here's the kicker- when I accept that God can be sick and needs MY forgiveness, when I know that my parents were flawed, but the most amazing people ever, when I recognize that I'm an imperfect, tiny speck of significant matter in the vast,beautiful Universe with something good to offer during my nano-second of being and that So are other human beings, I open myself to my higher power.

She, then, resists that first drink for me.

Wow, Della.

[quote]In my alcoholic brain, my thoughts and feelings are a hamster breathlessly running on a turning wheel. How do I let that little guy get off the treadmill and take a rest? AA.

[quote]Here's the kicker- when I accept that God can be sick and needs MY forgiveness, when I know that my parents were flawed, but the most amazing people ever, when I recognize that I'm an imperfect, tiny speck of significant matter in the vast,beautiful Universe with something good to offer during my nano-second of being and that So are other human beings, I open myself to my higher power.

I can relate to everything you said, especially about resentments. I learned from my short stint in AA that I resent just about every person I've com in contact with in my life- that was not a fun realization.

Here's my thing: I'm a good guy. I got hung up on the whole "amends" thing. Not that I haven't said or done things that have required being present in truth and accountability, but for what ever reason, I've always managed to make my apologies and be accountable whether I have been drinking, smoking, or SMOKING. Always. I get pissed off that AA assumes that because a person has used, or uses, that we can't be accountable for, or "do the next right thing." I know, I know, "take what you want, leave the rest," but I get tired of listening to people wax on about the horrible shit they did when they drank, smoked, teal. It exhausts me.

The hamster analogy is so true.

Ha, r183. Thank You

You made me realize that I left AA itself off my list of resentments, and, yet it does belong there and, as such, requirs my forgiveness. After all it's the stuff of human beings and we know how we are.

I know exactly how it feels to be exasperated at what is said and done at meetings.

I accept it this way and it works for me: I just keep listening to others. They need to say what they're saying to stay sober. By me honestly listening to them, I figure I'm doing my service work for the day. Good. I can check that "to do" off the day's list.

Most significantly, I'm sure I've caused my share of exasperation in other AAs, too. How healthily humble to contemplate. Damn.

Regarding amends, you know in your heart when you've done so, and it sounds like you have.

Peace, baby.

r183, sorry you feel that way about Drunkalogues in AA meetings. Personally, I love them, but then I'm just an old drunk perv.

In my city, some speakers sharing their stories can be wildly entertaining, relevant, and profound.

Some of them should be professional comedians. When a Tranny from Brooklyn is sharing her story about her experience with Columbian drug cartels, cheap Vodka, a hot flight steward, and you find yourself sitting next to Robin W. who is peeing his pants and laughing hysterically, you feel that there really is hope.

But at the back of your mind, STILL, are the images of all the liquor stores you could go to on the ride home.

Relapse is the shittiest thing I've ever done. If going down on Patty Heaton's tuna juices promised me sobriety and an end to how I am feeling right now, I would consider it.

I forgot to add- great post r181. You've helped me today. I love to hear and read about those little, yet very HUGE actions that come from sobriety.

Della you write beautifully.

LOL @ Patricia Heaton R185!

smooches, r187.

Yes, Della, we can also relate to everything you are saying. We wish you would attend our meetings here in Barcelona.

Thanks for sharing!

[quote]The most balanced AAs are the ones who don't base their social life around "the program", and keep a healthy distance from sponsors and the steps.

Uhm, that makes no sense. Did your boyfriend get sober in AA after you couldn't nag him into sobriety, then dump you? I'm betting yes.

Actually, it does make sense r191, AA is like the church, it can provide a wonderful guide for life, yet when it becomes an obsessive fundamentalism it becomes dangerous.

I just realized that I have resented every person that I have ever met as well. Is this an alcoholic thing, a gay thing (most of us were teased mercilessly as children), or just part of the human experience (hell is other people)?

I don't know, r193.

We're all sick, flawed, biased, ignorant, violent, kind, understanding, tolerant, beautiful, smart beings.

I heard or read in AA that carrying resentments is like you drinking the poison and expecting the other person or thing to die.

Purge the poiso. Forgive yourself, your higher power and others.

How do you deal with not being able to experience the "high" you get from drinking? I really enjoy it.

So do I, R195. For the past few months I've been drinking a bottle of wine every single night. I love that buzz & can't seem to quit.

Are you an alcoholic, r195? I ask only because lots of people I'm close to also really enjoy the high of alcohol, however, they aren't alcoholics.

On the other hand, there is me. I don't have that shut down mechanism in my brain that they do that says, "Ok. That's enough." Instead, once the alcohol hits my brain, immediately my thoughts are on whether or not I have access to enough alcohol to drink until I pass out.

Enjoyable? Yeah, the same way a trip to hell is.

I deal with the absence of alcohol by replacing it with the high of the deep serenity and joy of knowing that, no matter how bad things may have gone with my day, nevertheless, it's a good one because I haven't ingested alcohol

Drunks/addicts here in the flyoverville should be so entertaining, r185. Thanks for sharing, you made me smile when I'm feeling sad.

Della, I just adore you. Thanks for your sage insight, there are few posters on DL that match your sweetness and humanity.

Thank You, r198.

You're feeling sad? Yeah, sometimes, I do too. It passes.

Peace.

I know it will pass, but my sadness is for my people who are suffering and dying from cancer. Yes, this too shall pass, but there are no shortcuts.

r185, etc now home from a one-day detox at my regular hosp instead of gimmicky one. Vitals and bp was off the roof. The sweating, shaaking, coughing dry heaves and other pre-seizure symptons. have subsided. the staff was great - cute gay male nurses and intelligent/professiona female docs. Was pumped with rehydration fluids and Phenobarbital and Ativan all day,then sent home with a bottle of Ativn.

Grtting too groggy to type now, but feeling hopefull.

[Quote]I deal with the absence of alcohol by replacing it with the high of the deep serenity

In other words, you switched to Klonopin?

I think Klonopin is a really harmful drug (from experience). Of course, alchol is worse than just about anything else there could be.

OP here - I haven't had a drink in two weeks. Not a drop. I'm writing down the days I do WELL - which has been every day - on a note taped to my bathroom mirror.

I've gone to the one AA meeting, and may or may not go again in the future.

Taking better care of myself. I've had some withdrawal (tremor at times, headaches, dizziness) but overall feel so much better. I'm sleeping better. Smoking more (two cigs per day) but will cut that out.

My partner has cut back, but will probably never be able to stop completely. I hope I can. I really want to get well.

Thanks to anyone still interested.

This is great, these are the toughest days, hang in there. One day at a time.

My motto when weak..." not today, maybe tomorrow"... of course tomorrow is the same motto! It helps me anyway, and some dark chocolate!

That's fantastic news, OP. Keep at it and rightfully be proud of yourself. Be prepared to cut boyfriend out of your life if he doesn't follow suit

OP, that is fantastic! If you live in a big city, I would suggest trying out as many different AA meetings as possible. Some of them can be quite entertaining and they help deal with those things that come up which will make you want to drink.

Have detoxed for a week now. As an epileptic, I was put on strong anti-seizure meds and am being weened off of them. Entering a 2-week rehab tomorrow.

Am so happy that you didn't give in to Mr. Ethanol; for those of us who have crossed the line from social drinker over to daily addiction, he's just a nasty bitch who's no fun anymore.

So so true. A nasty bitch indeed.

Best wishes to you, OP.

[quote] AA is like the church, it can provide a wonderful guide for life, yet when it becomes an obsessive fundamentalism it becomes dangerous.

Yeah, I've had to walk over so many of those AA people, dead in the gutter with an AA meeting still stuck in their arm...

Sounds like somebody fell off the wagon tonight....

I have no fucking idea why I'm saying this on DL, I mean who really cares right?

I felt like shit about something all day yesterday, and knew from early on I was going to drink. I told myself to just take the fucking Naltrexone - just like for any pill to help prevent illness. Did I? No.

By five pm I was completely drunk, drove over to my partner's house, and crashed my car head on into a tree. All the airbags went off, I was wearing my seatbelt. No one else was involved. Obviously I got a DUI and my car may be totaled. I've lost my license for over a year and will have to do three days (mandatory) in jail.

All I can think about today is blowing my fucking head off.

OK, now will you go to your second AA meeting, OP?

Ugh, op, Not so good. At least you are okay and nobody was hurt or involved. I recommend some intensive alcohol education in a closed setting for at least a week. Often called rehab, or detox, a good program you will find other kindred souls and offer you a course of action to move forward. A 'slip' is a wake up call and an opportunity to take control of your life.

Stinking thinking; it gets the best of us.

OP Try valium, klonopin -- whatever you need to get of the booze

OP, keep coming back. If I can do this, so can you.

It took me over nine years from my first AA meeting to when I finally got it. I've been sober ever since and I have never had any desire to drink or use drugs.

An old timer told me at one of my first meetings, "If you live, we'll get you." Totally pissed me off at the time, then I decided it was really funny. Now I love him for having said that to me.

Now you know the repercussions aren't only about losing your looks. Most alcoholics aren't fortunate enough to go out gracefully.

wow, glad you're ok OP. You were fortunate to emerge unscathed and with no other victims.

What is it you 'felt like shit about all day yesterday'? whatever it was I doubt the booze made it better.

I'm really sorry op. It will get better. Dust yourself off and get to a meeting. They will understand.

OP, posting about your alcoholism, getting kindly responses and then drinking again is manipulative b.s.. Over two hundred people have posted in support of you and you come back and tell us you got drunk and hit a tree. Is this a game? I will read your posts again AFTER you get sixty days of sobriety, period. I will not have you play with my time or energy. Best of luck to you, I hope you can step up to the challenge.

You're right.

Your choice, R218. I'm not a tough love advocate.

I belong to the school that says OP needs our support now, not after he has proved he doesn't need it.

Screw off R218

R221, I'm not the one driving drunk and endangering people's lives.

Really, it's not rocket science. You stop drinking and replace it with healthy food/supplements/ exercise/hobbies/education etc.

We all go through hell in life and getting sober is the first step towards having to live with your feelings.

Not easy, but I wouldn't do it any other way. It is simply too GOOD feeling my life, even when it hurts like hell.

OP is starting to bottom out. That's what it takes for most of us to get serious help. And by that I mean daily AA meetings for a while PLUS talk therapy, PLUS temporary meds for withdrawl PLUS anti-depressants or other psych meds PLUS rehab, if you're still relapsing with grave consequences.

Relapsing is part alcoholism. You'll get tired of it.

A DUI might be the thing that saves yourself in the long-term, if you are forced into some program and keep an open mind once you're there.

Ignore r218; she needs to go to Al-Anon already, but that's another can O' worms.

Hang in there, R223. That's quite a regimen but you can do it.

I got sick of relapsing too, especially since each one was worse than the last.

A DUI can be a good thing, if it pushes an alcoholic into getting help. There's something comforting about going into rooms full of people where there's no shame in getting a DUI and where they are generally seen as catalysts.

Hang in there, OP. I can't imagine what you must go through daily basis, and I won't pretend to. I think you'll know what to do, and I hope you get that support wherever you might end up, and whatever decisions you make.

Wishing you the best, OP. I'm a daily narcotics user and there's no way i'll be stopping but I can relate to your struggle, and I hope you realise that you may well stumble once, twice, a dozen times - you're only human - but if you really want to stop then you'll nail it one day. Good luck.

We sense that our husband is planning to divorce us- again.

Which means we have not been going to enough AA meetings! Meetings are what enables us to put these thoughts totally out of our mind and carry on with our fabulous life.

You have my sympathies, OP. I'm an on-and-off the wagon drunk myself. I usually drink till I pass out, but also have occasional periods of sobriety. Remember this though; even a week without booze drastically lowers your tollerance. So when you start up again, you will end up blind drunk on the same amount that you would have consumed with ease previously. When this happens to me, I become an even bigger asshole than I ordinarily would be while ratfaced. So I try keep this at the back of my mind when I come off a dry period - drink at home, and begin as slowly as possible. I know, not easy, because its like throwing a switch - once you start, its very hard to moderate your intake. I also try avoid firewater - those alcohols like rum, whiskey that somehow fuck with your head while under the influence. I stick to vodka and beer now. I find it has a gentler effect on my judgement and disposition. This is not advice to continue drinking - its that when you do, apply as much judgement as possible to soften the consequences. Best of luck.

R228. That is exactly how this happened. God, how could I have not seen the part about tolerance coming. What a fucking idiot.

I don't even know what else to say right now. While I don't deserve sympathy, the fact that there is SOME understanding here is a miracle to me. I think it may be the most kindness and understanding I have coming my way for a long while.

Wow, what a horrible mistake.

This is why it is important to understand how our alcoholic brains are wired. Alcoholism is PROGRESSIVE. Whether we drink or not, it is impossible to "start over" and with each sickening event of our own self-destruction, will come the revelation that abstinence is the only way to live.

r226 why do you say there's no way you'll be stopping?

I don't want to. I'd be suicidally bored and depressed without the opiates. I don't want anything that would come from a life of abstinence. Depressing, I know, but I've thought long and hard about it and at the end of the day that's how I feel. It's funny - I tell anyone I know to be struggling with an addiction not to think less of themselves for doing what humans do (I've seen some beautiful people lose all sense of self-worth because of their addictive behaviours) but on the other hand I don't see any other future for myself than that of a junkie. I'm not feeling sorry for myself btw - I realise I'm far more fortunate than most other addicts.

R232/226 what do you take? Is it alcohol or something else?

OP here. Again I appreciate the helpful comments here. I will probably be thinking about DL while I'm sitting in jail next month.

I've hired a great attorney (family, as well) but who knows what will end up happening. My state has extremely strict DUI laws.

I feel incredibly alone, hopeless, and isolated. Those were all the feelings I had before I crashed my car into a tree and also leading up to these past several years of alcoholism. I have tried to be proactive: exercising, seeing my therapist, seeing my psychiatrist for medication management (an antidepressant I've been on for two decades as well as the Naltrexone) and was serious about going to AA. That is why I went. But the court isn't going to care. They are only going to care that I am a huge fuck up who could potentially endanger others. And if I am not able to beat alcoholism, they will be correct.

Last night I kept envisioning taking a bottle of benzos that I have, washing them down with vodka, and walking deep into the woods to never come out. Or perhaps just walk in front of a truck. I know those kinds of thoughts aren't normal, and maybe they are just passive, but I am so tired of fucking up. I had such hopes for myself only a few days ago; I was doing SO well and finally feeling good about myself.

Then I let things get to me, began to dwell on how much I dislike/feel sorry for myself, and drank the vodka. The rest is history at this point.

I'm over myself and the hurt I cause others because I'm a weak assed idiot.

R233:

Alcoholism is a progressive disease, which you already know. Here's a head's up -- loss of tolerance means you are pretty far down the road. If you haven't done permanent damage to yourself, liver, brain, pancreas etc, that's about to happen.

Beware of the pink cloud -- sounds as though you took a ride on it. Do you have numbers to call? 90 in 90 and you should get 90 numbers out of it.

Your emotional turmoil now is almost certainly due to the way alcohol has messed up your brain chemistry and you will feel better, much better, after a few months away from the stuff, it's a question of biochemicals in the brain, it takes time.

But here's the downside and maybe some motivation. It is possible to do brain damage so that your mood stability never gets back where it should be, if you don't quit soon enough.

That's the problem I face. Of course I am way better when I don't drink, but I face permanent mood problems because I didn't stop in time.

SSRIs and psychiatric treatment help a lot, but stay the hell away from benzos. Those are gasoline on fire for an alkie.

All those old-heads who have years in? They had problems stopping. Almost nobody says, "I got a problem," and puts it down for good. Most of us had to learn the hard way. You can do it.

Keep coming back, to AA and here. We run out of room, start a new thread.

OP, I have reconsidered my stance with you and am withdrawing my tough love approach.

I believe that you may have PTSD, post-traumatic stress syndrome.

This is why you cannot think, see, or feel your way out of your mess. PTSD alters the brain, but the good news is that you can rewire it through sobriety and productive behaviors.

It looks bad now, but there is hope for a new life. This is a new start for you, a life of sobriety and happiness(well, let's say contentment) and yes, you are lucky to be alive.

For you, I do recommend AA just as a place to show up everyday. But because you might have PTSD, don't let others put you down or control you--this is commmonplace in AA. For your temperament, it could cause great harm. Use it as a place to have friendly chat and be suportive of other sensitive types.

OP, you need therapy, but with PTSD you may be overwhelmed with obtaining it. You are lucky in that the legal system or your family may find help for you.

Really, being arrested may have been your lucky break.

OP, don't give up just yet. You probably drink for the same reason I do - life just seems a lot better after a few. But you need to be able to pull your punches. If you have to drink, try keeping track and using less than you want to. And two weeks without booze is a good thing. Keep spacing it. Eventually, you will find a balance. And whatever you do, don't ever, ever drive. You do not want to end up on Fox as the guy who wiped out a family. And become a DL post which will be embarrassing for all of us.

Will someone start a Friday night drinkie-poos thread? We haven't had one in a while.

Yeah, r236, let's see how long that brilliant plan lasts for the OP.

It's opiates I use, OP - morphine & heroin. I've been at it long enough (19 yrs) to be able to manage the worst of the downsides and maintain a fairly functional life besides. Having known addicts all my adult life I've realised I have much more self-control than most of them. I think an important question you have to ask yourself, whatever addiction you're tackling, is whether you're an all or nothing user/drinker or one who can manage your use. Can you manage your intake or does all self-restraint go out the window once you start? If you were hungry, would you spend your last ten dollars on food or booze? The answers to these will help you determine whether you need to adopt some techniques for managing your intake, or whether you need to completely remove alcohol from your life. The Court may well show you some sympathy if you can demonstrate that your history of trying to beat your addiction pre-dates the accident. Do you have any friends or family you can talk about this with? As alone as you feel, know that many, many people struggle with addictions - enough of them that I think you could argue it's quite natural human behaviour. Don't fall into thinking you have no self-worth because of your addictive-behaviours. You're accepting responsibility for your actions and are taking steps to change your ways. That takes strength and resolve. Keep at it, op - you'll get there.

R239:

You make really good points, solid points of encouragement, but I disagree when you talk about managing intake.

I have been down both roads, alcohol and opiates. I have been fighting addictions since 1981, with intermittent success, and at the moment I have 7.5 years in, substance free.

Addiction to opiates and alcohol have a lot in common but there are significant differences.

I won't get into specifics because I don't want to give people tips on how to manage intake, or suggest that one chemical is better than the other, but the tricks opiate addicts use to manage their addiction don't usually work for alkies.

Part of it is that one substance is legal, the other isn't. Part of it is that while both substances erode inhibition, the loss of inhibition plays out quite differently.

You are absolutely right that OP's accepting responsibility is essential. Nothing else can happen, there can be no progress at all, until the person says to himself, "I have a problem. I cannot continue to live this way."

The program does not work for people who need it. It works for people who want it.

You can use AA effectively but first you need to be aware of a few problems with it.

First of all, most people with 1 to 5 years of sobriety are utterly useless. They are are still at these meetings everyday because someone told them they had to be, and as a result they are bored, texting during the meeting, etc. I saw one person with a smartphone in his lap watching the football game during the meeting. Or worse, they are in cliques, just there to see and be seen. You will find them mugging for their friends and having whispered side conversations during the meetings, and of course, coming in late and distracting other people. Their shares are full of cliches, and boring. Unfortunately people with between 1 to 5 years make up the bulk of the program.

The solution is to go only to Speaker meetings (harder to disrupt), and meetings where people are bussed in from rehab (fewer 1 to 5 year people). This is what I'm doing.

It bears repeating, but every AA meeting is different. Over the years each develops its own culture, and a meeting that works for one person isn't a good fit for others. If you are just getting started, keep trying different meetings.

I have heard that in England, once meetings get to a certain size, 25 or so, they split and become two. That helps everyone stay involved. Wish we did that hear.

On the other hand, you know all it takes to start a new meeting: "Two drunks, a pot of coffee, and a grudge." The grudge being at all the turkeys in the previous meeting.

R242, so really expect people with a few days sobriety to "get a coffee pot and start a new meeting"? You aren't even supposed to be leading meetings if you have less than 90 days. And what if the cliques form in the new group over time? Do you keep leaving to form new groups?

There are many things right with AA, but the inability of most of it's members to grasp the nettle and address serious problems without resorting to the use of tired slogans and cliches is problematic. This is what's slowly killing AA.

@r241 Blanket statement "most people with 1 to 5 years of sobriety are utterly useless" is only partly true, but I've experienced the rest of his warnings, too.

Again and again, if you want change, challenge yourself to go to as many different meetings as often as you can.

Chances are you will identify with some groups much more than others and eventually bond with people from some of them. An open mind is an absolute must. I used the excuse of shitty meetings due to what I perceived as shitty meeting regulars to justify many relapses, some of which which nearly killed me.

[quote]I won't get into specifics because I don't want to give people tips on how to manage intake, or suggest that one chemical is better than the other, but the tricks opiate addicts use to manage their addiction don't usually work for alkies

Do tell!

r241 is a smug lying bastard. I've seen people with dozens of years of sobriety behave in the exact same manner r241 is accusing those of 1-5 years of sobriety of doing. I had to "shush" a member with long-term sobriety for talking during a meeting once, and she looked at me like I was crazy, but realized her mistake.

If you go in the right state of mind, you can learn something from anyone, whether they have one day or 40+ years.

I need those tips for managing my intake because I am not ready to give up wine just yet. I can drink two 750 or one 1.5 (the big bottle) a night. Sometimes, I can function the next day if nothing out of the ordinary comes up and sometimes, I just need to leave work early.

I've gained tons of weight and I am starting to worry about my health. I had a blood test about two years ago (not nessarily for alcohol intake, more for thyroid and just general testing) and everything was good (cholesteral was high). So I thought I was still good to go but now it's in the back of my mind, the possible diseases I'm suspect to.

Still, life is too boring, sad, lonely, disappointing, etc. to go through sober. I still need a drink.

Right now I'm going to give it up during the week and drink only on weekends. I'd like to control the weekend drinking. So I NEED tips to manage it.

R247, only alcoholics think life is too boring without booze. Everyone else thinks that being a drunk is boring (and it is).

It takes real balls to live life sober and feel your feelings. But you are missing out, by being sedated, on the illuminated, psychedelic, and profound intricasies of daily life. It's why a poor housewife and mother of five, living in a small rural town, can feel blessed and happy. She sees the miracles of daily living and nature. And it's because she's not sedated.

Just go for it. Man or woman up. Live a little.

R247, I am kind of in the same boat as you. I used to drink 1-2 bottles of wine a night, and I have been able to cut back. I still drink every night, but drink less now. I started taking 5htp, which has helped with sugar and alcohol cravings. I also started buying the mini bottles of wine instead of the 750ml. I have an easier time controlling how much I drink this way. I have to go into the kitchen and screw open each bottle, and I know that I need to stop at two or three. I used to pour HUGE glasses of wine out of the larger bottle, and became shocked when the bottle was gone after 2-3 glasses...just mindlessly drinking. The mini bottle wines are not the best quality either, so I don't enjoy them as much.

R247, R249

You have your story and you have your life. Different things work for different people.

Generally, when people feel as though they have to get control over something, that something is already out of control.

Just a suggestion, but it is time to consider sobriety. Soon, it may be the only way to go on living.

You may have a path that works for you, but if controlled drinking works for you, you will be members of a very small club with a vanishingly small roster.

It is very hard to pub the genie back in the bottle, once you have passed over the line into problem drinking.

Once you're a pickle, you can't go back to being a cucumber.

When I entered the program all I was told that all I needed to do was put the plug in the jug, read the BB and hit my knees every night before I went to bed to give praise to the Lord.

The fellowship of recovery is a bridge back to life. We are NOT a glum lot.

OP keep coming back, you're only as sick as your secrets. You need to come to an understanding that only one power could relieve you of alcoholism--that one is God, may you find him now.

Give it a rest, preacher man.

I do agree with "You're only as sick as your secrets". This is one of the best phrases pertaining to recovery and of life in general.

Sobriety is attainable for many people in many ways. A network of support is important.

If you always sleep in the middle of the bed, you'll never fall on the floor--meeting makers make it, one day at a time. And remember to stick with the winners OP.

[quote]I don't want to. I'd be suicidally bored and depressed without the opiates.

This is of course, what a toxic mind/thinking pattern says; what a depressed person says. This is all distorted thinking. Totally backwards. You're depressed *because* of the opiates, and you can't remember what it is like to be clean and healthy. Very ironic, very sad.

Addicts fall into this trap all the time.

I hope one day you'll get sick of feeling so empty, and try something new.

R255 depression is just anger turned inwards.

FUCK GOD.

FUCK THIS SHIT.

I have tried so many timees, and I keep fucking FAILING. My partner who I am too co-dependent and stupid to leave will never stop drinking even though he has promised me over and over he would. I don't want to put this on HIM but if he would have just tried it would have made me SO much stronger.

So I guess this is it. I've lost my license for a couple of years; will do time in jail even though no one was hurt; and am too weak to leave a severely alcoholic man who I let control so much of my misery and happiness.

I am so angry at him, even though he didn't make me get behind the wheel and crash into a tree. But it was because of him and an argument and alcohol obviously being involved that caused me to get to that place. Just my own fucking stupid, stupid choices.

PLEASE do not tell me to get on my fucking knees and pray!!! I've tried being proactive; yes, AA has been sporadic over the years but I have been doing therapy and medication almost all my life with the past ten years being heavily focused on my alcoholism. And what have I accomplished? Not a goddamn thing.

R256 that's a bit too oversimplified.

Depression might include anger, but it also includes hopeless, sadness and despair. And many of these feelings come as a result of distorted thoughts.

R257 what are you doing in therapy? Are you doing Cognitive Behavioral Therapy? What are your short and long term goals in therapy and have you met any of them?

R258 I heard it in the Program, and I stand by it.

You don't have to get on your knees to go to AA. I am an atheist and AA is filled with non-believers.

If the meeting ends with the Lord's Prayer, slip out beforehand, stand silently, while other people say what helps them, or whatever, but you do not have to believe in God to get help through AA.

I understand my higher power to be a community of people I can join with in beating this disease.

R262 I've never met someone sober long term in the program who still uses a doorknob as their HP. That's intended as a temporary stepping stone towards real belief, not a permanent solution.

R262:

Next time you are in the Windy City, check out any of these Quad A meetings, Alcoholics Anonymous for Atheists and Agnostics -- AAAA.

You will meet many old timers who do not believe in God:

Sundays 7 pm, Gale House 124 N Kenilworth Oak Park, IL

Sundays 7 pm, McGaw YMCA, 1000 Grove St, Evanston, IL

Mondays, 7 pm, 5555 N. Lincoln Ave, Chicago, IL

Tuesday 6:15 pm, 2nd Unitarian Church, 656 W Barry, Chicago, IL

Wednesday 7 PM, Hyde Park AAAA Hyde Park Union Church, 5600 S Woodlawn, Chicago, IL

Wednesday 7 PM QUAD A WOMENS'S MEETING Gale House 124 N Kenilworth Oak Park, IL

Wednesday 8 pm, NW Suburban Quad A, Schaumburg Public Library, 130 S Roselle Rd, Schaumburg, IL

Thursday 7 pm, West Suburban Medical Center, 3 Erie Ct, Room C & D, Oak Park, IL

Thursday 7 pm, McGaw YMCA, 1000 Grove St, Evanston, IL

Saturday 11:15 am, AA Humanist Atheists & Agnostics, United Church, 615 W Wellington, Chicago, IL

Saturday Free Spirit 4:15 pm Agnostics, Atheists & Anyone Else, United Church, 615 W Wellington, Chicago, IL

-- You can find similar meetings all over the world, see link.

R260 whatever works for you. Sincerely.

Jesus Christ

Interesting how AA'ers claim you need a higher power, and yet don't just stay sober out of responsibilty to society.

Alkies must stay sober so that they don't kill anyone on the road. Period. That should be enough for you---not god, dog, doorknob, sponsors, etc.

Alkies/druggies/ must stay sober so that they don't beat/rape their wives/boyfriends/children. Why isn't that enough for you? Drunks/druggies must stay sober so they can better pay their bills and not become bums. Why isn't that enough for you?

The higher power thingy is a ruse to keep inflated egos entertained and self-centered drunks/druggies feeling 'special.'

God has nothing to do with your sobriety, because he won't even help out starving children. And YOU are not more important than starving children.

R266:

I have heard people who are still drinking say that they won't go near AA because it is all about religion and God, but I never heard anything like what R262 said, that somehow you weren't doing the program correctly or completely until you believed in God, and I am an atheist whose been to a lot of meetings.

What you might hear are people who believe in God saying that for themselves, they cannot imagine staying sober without God and don't know how others do so.

I know this. I can't imagine that an atheist would ever say to a somebody at a meeting who believes in God: "You aren't doing the program right and your sobriety is in doubt until you give up your superstition."

I also can't imagine a professional in the treatment field saying that at some point more progress requires a belief in God.

Well, obviously the fundamentalist crowd will say just about anything, but they don't count, not as legitimate therapists.

R267, I find that some of the most spiritual people are, ironically, athiests. I do think they tap into the energy field at times but don't label it as spiritual. In any event, it's too bad that those who have been injured by religion are so abused in AA, but I guess one can stay sober on their own merits, especially if they are naturally honest.

R267, I didn't originate what I said--I've heard it said in meetings. The whole doorknob HP idea was originated by Bill W., etc. as a way to ease reluctant people into a God Consciousness over time. That is the purpose of our fellowship, aside from a couple of quirky "agnostic groups" (are they really practicing AA?) in huge cities in the US.

R262:

I thought the purpose was to solve a common problem and help others recover from alcoholism.

There is a reason the wording has changed over the years, even Bill W. needed some editing, so that:

3. "Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care and direction of God," received the additional words, "as we understand him."

Thousands of other people in AA understand God as not existing. If that helps keep us sober, then the program works for us.

If you need a different understanding so the program works for you, then feel free to work through the program so it works.

What works works.

Bill W was a major pussy hound who used AA for fresh meat. He had a number of affairs with the wives of his AA recruits. I don't give him much credit for original thought, particularly about God-consciousness. He remained in an arrested state of development and continued to espouse churchianity.

I have known many people in AA who are able to achieve and maintain sobriety without believing in the sky fairy, so get off that kick. I have solid, long-term sobriety without adhering to Bill W's "God-consciousness." In fact, if anything, my disbelief in that God figure has been encouraged. Many AA members have private beliefs that are very different from those of the preachers like Bill W.

The co-founder of AA, Dr. Bob Smith, was an agnostic who was so open-minded he attended seances after AA meetings. He never pretended to go along with Bill W's religiosity. If Dr. Bob had lived longer, I believe AA would have been a very different organization because he would have been able to keep Bill W's enormous ego and Jesus belief from taking over.

R262 post illustrates what AA really is--a religious cult. Most AA'ers believe that you must come around to finding god--and that means the AA god.

The AA god is about You, the drunk, being the most special thing in this world, and your 'sobriety' is monitored by god, who cares more about helping you than murdered innocents, refugees, torture victims, and starving children.

You will stay sober only through the mercy of this god, as you, the drunk, will forever remain in a child-like state of prayer, sponsors, sexual predators, criminals, and bad coffee.

You will also reveal yuor innermost secrets to a stranger, who may hold this information against you to blackmail, coerce, and gossip about you.

You will endure this humilation and horror because you, the drunk, cannot get sober on your own, so they say, which is the BIGGEST LIE OF THEM ALL.

R271:

You have the history right, and those who look back to what Bill W. said or the Doctor said as though they had some sort of special insight because they said it first, as they look backwards like that, they are displaying a religious attitude -- "The words of the master must be examined to find the truth," an type of investigation which doesn't work well in developing a therapeutic model.

The history of AA has been a shift away from religion. The roots were in the Oxford Movement, a fellowship based on the way the members thought early Christianity might have worked. That is not a good fit for a group that deals with a problem that hits people of every race, every religion, as well as those of us with no religion.

AA can be extremely helpful.

I don't go to meetings any more but I did when I first tried to stop drinking. You can be casual about it. You don't have to "join the cult."

I am 17 years sober and I enthusiastically recommend AA to anyone who is trying to stop drinking.

R270 then you and those people are probably not real alcoholics. The Big Book makes a clear distinction between real alcoholics and certain types of hard drinkers. Real alcoholics can only be saved by a spiritual awakening to God, through the program of Alcoholics Anonymous.

Labels will justify a good drunk every time. God or no God. Real alcoholic or pseudo alcoholic. Thump the Big Book or become an abstinent nun vegetarian. Whatever! I am old -- 60 on Easter and 32 years sober. Stay outta of the wine cellar and turn your brain to robot. All that thinking took you to the gutter. Focus on someone else - for a change! I have noticed that most people with booze problems are raging narcisists. And, nobody should care if they tipple or not. BFD. And, frankly, if your looks are going to go, which they are, Miranda, the bloated apple body is probably not the way to go.

I'm 37 and recently gave up alcohol. I wasn't a heavy drinker but it was wine every night. But even moderate drinking takes its toll. Once I stopped, I lost weight, my skin looked better and I don't ever crave it. It was more out of habit. I feel SO much better though. Good luck OP, you can do it.

The Big Book is very straightforward on this issue. You are supposed to read "to the Agnostic", come to believe through the aid of a sponsor, turn your will over to Him in Step 3, and then make conscious contact with Him in Step 11.

The fact that the personal pronoun "He" is used in the steps indicates that they are talking about God, not the group, doorknob,etc.

It's becoming more apparent that people these days aren't well versed in the Big Book.

The program of Alcoholics Anonymous is the Big Book. If you're doing something different than what's in there, it's not AA.

14 yrs sober and AA saved my life. I would not have the amazing life I have today if I hadnt put down the drink.

Simple as that. It works.

R275 and R278 are proof of the concerns of many recovering alcoholics that AA is becoming entirely too rigid.

This is the antithesis of anonymity.

Did a stint in rehab where we had meetings every night. Then attended a few on my own once I got out. My experience was not positive (and yes, I checked in voluntarily). There was a lot of drama over inane subjects like to combine or not to combine NA with AA meetings, raffles, and a lot of other shit where people were badgered to participate even if they did not want to. Plus, the whole thing about people talking about others behind their backs that really put me off. Too bad, because I could really use it.

R278:

Maybe you are on to something.

Here's a way you can help. Go to the various intergroups where there are AA groups for atheists and agnostics and tell intergroup they are doing the cause of sobriety a disservice by encouraging people who are non-believers to have groups.

Get the various intergroups to delete these meetings from the listings.

Nothing like a fundie drunk.

R283:

Old AA saying:

Q What you get when an a/h gets sober?

A A sober a/h.

So then we have this:

Q What do you get when a fundie a/h gets sober?

A A sober fundie a/h.

[quote][R262] I've never met someone sober long term in the program who still uses a doorknob as their HP. That's intended as a temporary stepping stone towards real belief, not a permanent solution.

That's bonkers. Spare us, Churchy. I've been sober and enthusiastically a member of AA for almost 25 years, and have been a delighted Atheist the whole time. Of course, there is power and wisdom greater than my own, but certainly no "bible God" who knows my address and middle name! I love being part of something so helpful, sensible and service-oriented as AA, and sobriety has forced me to be more honest, brave and solution oriented. Spare me the false, yet typical Christian garbage. It will let you down every time.

Graduated from an excellent 15-day intensive rehab today! Feeling absolutely great, 22 days sober. Entering P/T outpatient day treatment program, plus daily 12-step meetings. Lost 7 lbs in 3 weeks, too, just by making simple dietary changes and no Vodka. Ready to live a real life now.

OP and others who want to get sober, I wish you well. A mind 100% open to accepting help and a willingness to change is all it takes.

Unfortunately for some of us, it can take years of trying to get to this point.

Bravo! R286. It keeps getting better.

R286:

That's wonderful.

Be wary of the pink cloud, a feeling of elation that often happens in early days of sobriety.

It is very typical to hit a significant valley in the first couple of months, and old timers often say that the first year off was worse than the last year on.

But this is still wonderful news.

Baby steps. This is a time to be extra careful. Try to do 90 in 90 and a telephone number at each meeting, you end up with 90 friends who will talk to you about how to do the right things.

If nothing else, when you are feeling tempted, post in the thread, somebody will respond.

good work r286, and good luck.

When is the court date op?

I think if you drink you may want to think what are you afraid to find out about yourself if you're sober. That maybe you're not that interesting, fun & attractive? My dad normally a shy, sweet quiet man would become this talkative animated man when he drank. His friends, co workers loved it, encouraged his drinking. Best thing we ever did was leave the country & those kinds of friends behind.

Stay away from drinking buddies & enablers. If you're dull & boring without the drink, who cares. But once you figure out what you're afraid to find out about yourself, that thing will no longer have power over you & you can get rid of the alcoholic crutch you're clinging to.

Thanks 285- great answer. AA does not require someone to believe in the "Bible God", nor do long-term sober people necessarily migrate to that particular version of higher power over time. R285 is one such person. I am probably another. And I know as many like myself as I do those who believe in a "Bible God" which is fine with me as long as they don't insist I do as they do. Nor do I insist they do as I do.

Let Go, Let God R285.

I've come off a two-bottle of wine & halfjack of vodka habit, for almost a month now. It was just a case of ratchetting back. That, and being kicked out of home by my partner. I think OP is right in identifying his other half as being part of the problem. The thing is, it is not nearly as hard as people say. You can do it OP.

Let go, let live r293

R292 that's true, you can just come to meetings, not do the program, and be a dry drunk if you choose.

Friday afternoon drinkie poos! I'm having a Pimms cup!

I'm already planning my purchase of a fifth of Absolute Ruby Red and diet soda water.

Thirty days sober today!!!

R299:

That's great. Hug and a pat on the back coming your way.

The biochemical brain adjustment and healing process takes a very long time, up to two years, so keep that in mind when you are in the dumps -- the mood swings get better. One drink, though, and you are back at the beginning.

Did you get off the klonopin or whatever it was they gave you for seizures? Nasty stuff, necessary, but nasty, at least for some people.

Great job, R299.

Thanks! Am off the evil Clorazepate and on a much less acutely powerful anti-seizure med for life, as an epileptic. Am in an excellent, holistic outpatient rehab program that is also 12-step based. Looking forward to that obsession being lifted, but for now, am very happy being sober and working hard on getting tools relapse prevention for when I'm released into the wild.

wowie, congrats!

And another big congrats to anyone who manages to stay sober in these stressful times. We might as well go through all the sh*tstorm sober, because if we drink/use it's still a sh*tstorm but with a hangover and empty wallet.

Just do it sober

I love that.

Interesting. I just read the three days in jail thread and was sympathetic ... no one should have to pay so much and spend three days in jail for such a small amount of weed. Then I read this thread. it wasn't just a bit of alcohol, you were drunk out of your mind, as you said. You crashed a car. Honey, my friend died in an accident because his gf had just a little weed in her and just a little alcohol, or so she said. Just enough to crash the car and kill him on impact. He was 18. He just started college, and was home for fall break. You say no one got hurt, but there was a huge potential for lots of people to get hurt. In my opinion, 3 days are not enough.

Embrace your alcoholism? It's one thing to choose a suicidal path in life, it's another to expect support when your path can kill a lot of innocent bystanders who have not embraced their own, let alone YOUR alcoholism.

Sorry, no support from this corner.

Let it go.

You might as well just start shitting yourself and then claiming "Oh, I'm totally OK, I'm just only going to wipe once or twice a week."

If you are in LA, you might want to do sober Sundays and join the Salvation Army-- since that is where Dean Phoenix is a drug an alcohol councilor.

Hunt em' down and Get your fuck on!

Trade one vice for another, dude!

How do you do?

Well, what's the update?

How's it going? I haven't forgotten about you guys, and I'd like to know how everyone's coping while all hell is breaking loose.

As you can see, I'm quite late to this party. I just wanted to add, not preach, for anyone who may be in the same boat as the OP a year ago.

I am currently 52, something I would never say out loud in my real life. I have been an alcoholic for 20 years. I was quite beautiful without much effort for 40 years. I started getting small patches of dilated capillaries at 38. No biggie, I can cover that with a touch of foundation. Then I noticed I was becoming a little thicker just around the middle, much like a man that age. My face slowly lost its contours around 45. I was still "attractive" but by no means beautiful. Fast forward: I have the look of a bull mastiff now. I stopped working, because I do not need the money and I am so ashamed of my appearance. I no longer leave my house save for a weekly trip to the grocery store and liquor store. My hair is dread locked because I don't brush it. I don't bathe or shower frequently because I cannot bear to enter my bathroom which is filled with mirrors. My beautiful teeth have suffered greatly because of neglect(not a meth mouth, but not healthy either) and I have obviously isolated myself from every human I ever knew.

If this doesn't get your or, anyone else still young enough to make a change attention, I don't know what will.

Fuck!

I had a friend in the French Quarter of New Orleans, big alky. Got so drunk one night he fell off his 3rd floor balcony (the ones with the wrought iron you see on all the postcards), and landed head first through the windshield of the parked car below him. It was horrible, his legs sticking out of the window and spazing out because he had broken his neck in the fall. He didn't live. I took his cats in.

I've found that the prospect of losing one's good looks (by means of addiction) can be an initial impetus to stop. But it's most usually not enough. There's definite self-destruction/self-sabotage involved.

[314] It took me about 10 years to realize that I was subconsciously driven to my behavior by 2 things: 1. Self sabotage as a means to drive people away from me and make it easier to become a total recluse 2. All the above stemmed from a childhood which could rival "Sybil" minus the multiple personalities.

Many people have tragic, painful childhoods. Quite a few are able to either use their anger/resentment as motivation to leave the misery in the past, or come to grips with their pain through psych help and meds if needed. I wasn't one of those people. I to this day loathe my mother and have forgiven her nothing. Yes, that's eating me alive and I will probably be dead within 2 years. No drama there, just cold truth. I cannot believe that someone who gave birth to me could be so cruel and heartless. So she won. Don't become me!!!

Op won't quit even when His liver gives out, He'll figure He's already dying, so why bother. I pray Op doesn't drink & drive like a friend of mine. I tried six ways to Sunday to get him to stop, begged Him, Last week He Milled someone with His car, then left the seen, He finally quit by default. He is in jail @ 54 clean & sober & will soon be sentenced to prison. He just wouldn't listen !!!!

Alcohol kills slowly....but who is in a hurry? My friend, reduced to living at home with his elderly mother, bled to death. Not a pleasant way to go.

OP, I read that you started taking antidepressants. That can exacerbate the problem, making both the cravings and the affects of alcohol after drinking really unpredictable.

The bad news is it's hard to get off them too. I saw some other drinkers here say they used 5HTP, with is a seratonin booster without all the side effects. But you need to take some things with to work. (niacin is a biggie for alcoholics, B complex, vitamin C..)

Go to amazon and buy The Mood Cure by Julia Ross. It will give you start to learn what an alcoholic brain needs and how to wean off antidepressants.

L Glutamine is something to take when a craving strikes. powder straight in the mouth. Works for sugar cravings too.

Worth a shot. Works for some.

I was exactly like you, OP. Drank EVERY DAY from the time I was seventeen until the time I was 55. Loved every fucking minute of it.

The reason I finally stopped is blood pressure. It was getting crazy high, and my alcoholism had almost everything to do with it (along with some thyroid meds I was taking.)

Everything else was fine (no liver damage, etc.), but the blood pressure was most definitely not fine.

So I quit drinking cold turkey. The first four months were unbelievably horrible, but now I'm cool.

Honestly don't think I'll go back. I like being sober.

Oh, and my hair has started growing back in.

This has been an interesting thread- any updates OP?

Great post, OP. I mainly stopped drinking because I was worried about my looks and also because it was affecting my performance at work.

I wasn't a heavy drinker, but I drank during the day and most every day.

Last week I decided I could start drinking again. I had three rhums/orange from 1pm and it felt great. I wondered why I had ever stopped.

Lol!!! If u WANT this, then it's all there for you! People who want to quit can and do.

Switch to coke: much better for the liver and the brain. Not so good for the cardiovascular system though and the wallet but at least you have a choice!

R321, keep us posted, will you?

My problem with drinking has been that I'm a "fun" drunk; that when I drink, I'm super friendly and people like me better than when I'm sober.

I've always thought it would be better if I were an angry, violent drunk or a bitter drunk because then I could be guilt-tripped into feeling awful about my actions/drinking/etc.

It's nearly 30 years since I had a drink. I never really think about it. Other addictions have trumped drinking. I think that happens to most sober alcoholics.

Am I glad I don't drink? I suppose so. There's a lot of bad shit that could have happened that didn't. I was getting so I couldn't get to work on time, and I was afraid I'd someday kill someone in a DUI accident. I didn't have the "spiritual awakening" they talk about in AA. I just decided one morning after a two-day binge that I didn't want to drink anymore, and I haven't.

Bump - OP??

Pot kills any cravings I have for alcohol. I suppose it's substituting one substance for another, but alcohol has a much more pernicious effect on me than does pot.

Four beer s and I'm out

If I drink a bottle of wine every weekend, does that make me an alcoholic? I drink nothing during the week, I have a job. But if I want to drink some wine during the weekend to relax from my stressful job, is that so bad? I honestly don't know anymore. Maybe I am drinking too much..

This made me sad, OP. Give recovery another try and keep trying until it takes.

Not being a drunk asshole all the fucking time is pretty great.

Oh please, r331. OP died six years ago.

🤡 Your nose will become bulbous with very large pores, and your dick will be chronically limp, but you'll be just fine, OP.

🐒 Carry On !

I've already posted previously. I'm having a passive motion exercise device delivered tomorrow, in preparation for a shoulder replacement on Tuesday. I actually don't look all that bad. But I've never had real surgery before, and I'm scared. The hospital called me today to give me an estimate of how much the procedure would cost: over $64K. But, with my insurance, it should be about $1800.00. When they quoted $64K, I was about to cancel, and just live like a pioneer man with a broken arm.

If the OP really did die, then my condolences to his friends and family.