Could Jeanette MacDonald, Jane Powell or Deanna Durbin

Probably not, because they were not! Voices were not big enough.

Not really.

MacDonald did work with some opera companies and even did an opera or 2 at the Hollywood Bowl but overall none of their voices were really of the opera singer caliber to sustain a career in that world.

No, and that goes for Kathryn Grayson and Mario Lanza as well.

I read that Mario Lanza was something called a "spinto tenor". Meaning he could sorta hit the tenor notes but it was more head voice than trained chest voice.

How about Irene Dunne? I seem to recall reading that she studied opera.

All of their voices were really too thin to fill an opera house unamplified; whereas on film they were all miked and the sound sweetened (mostly by Norma's brother Douglas Shearer, head of the Sound Dept. at MGM).%0D %0D MacDonald tried opera in the 40s after she left Metro, but didn't do well; Grayson didn't do well as Guenevere in the first national company of CAMELOT, and left the show early in the tour, so the idea of her singing opera is ridiculous.%0D %0D OTOH, opera singers who made films (Rise Stevens, Lily Pons, Ezio Pinza, Helen Traubel) didn't fare so well either...

No.

JM: thin and reedy

JP: weak and lacking in tone; throat issues

DD: Lacking in color, personality and power

Grayson? A mosquito caught in the spin cycle.

Durbin and Lanza maybe with some more training.

Madeline Kahn?

No, but Merman could have.

A big boo-kay to you, R10. Got that straight.

Her "O mon Fernand" alone would have knocked the simper off Mary Martin's face for all eternity.

Grace Moore was an opera star who was quite a big movie star in the 30s. People always forget she was such a big deal.

R10 and R11 have brought a little tear to my eye.

They don't make 'em like Ethel anymore.

My old mom used to tell me that Grace Moore was quite a big movie star in the mid-30s but as she apparently never made any classic films that are still regularly shown, she is completely forgotten. Or was mom deluded?

Not Jeanette but Nelson Eddy could have been a success on the operatic circuit.

Though I love all 3 of them, they are so out of touch with today's standards of popular singing and stardom, we may as well be discussing the merits of Neanderthal women.

MacDonald recorded "Ave Maria" for her funeral. I thought that was a good idea and may record "Va Pensiero" for mine.

People politics have a lot to do with types of success people have. There are many various resons such as prejudices because of one's background, race or creed. Look at Jospehine Baker, how successfull and she was in France. Some of her recordings showed she had a strong enough voice that was very pleasing and satisfied many. Certainly she was very popular in France. It was the small minded bigot, Walter Winchall who ruined her success in America with the dishonest way he portrayed her to the public. Why and how were the french so much more intellegent about her? But there are many other factors to consider like, the way Katherine Grayson,Jane Powel,Deanna Durban, Mario Lanza and Jeannette McDonald handled and what knowledge they had of important rehersal technieus in a legitimate operetic setting. For myself, I liked listening to them far more than the obnoxious, vibrating operetic techiques of so called legitimate opera singers. They had a good technical ability and sense of "vibrato," in their voices which for me were far more honest and beautiful to listen to than the nausiating vibrato techniques of more considered operetic divas. If it means this makes them commericial divas, I don't care. The sound of what I hear is far more important!

There are other factors to consider besides just voices. things like knowledge of rehersal techniques, people politics and prejudices play a big role in it too. As far as prejudice and people politics, take the small minded bigot, Walter Winchall who destroyed the career of Josephine Baker by shaping public opinion about her voice because she was Afro American and wanted to take revenge for her standing up for her rights to be served at a popular restaurant. Whilte it's somewhat true that the singers mentioned were more popular operetic divas, for myself I prefer listening to their far more beautiful voices and more honest use of the operetic technique known as "vibrato",than the more dishonest obnoxious souding vibrato sound of recognized operetic divas of any era, but especially that one!

Grace Moore was a huge movie and opera star of the 30s - the only one of any of the names on this thread who got an Oscar nomination as Best Actress (for "One Night of Love" in 1934).

The reasons she's forgotten today: she made her films at low-budget Columbia, not at a major studio like MGM, and Columbia didn't take care of her films so they were never re-issued, and never get the exposure (TCM, etc.) of the MGM or Warners films do;

she only made a handful of films (unlike Jeannette, who made almost 50), and all of Moore's film (with one early exception) were made between 1934 - 1939, a time when LOTS of movies were being made, so hers got lost in the shuffle

She died in 1947, and the war curtailed her career considerably. She also didn't make a lot of audio recordings, so there were precious few ways to remember her, unlike the others listed above.

But in her way, she was far better than all of them. She's the only one who got her own biopic, a dreadful film called "So This is Love" where Kathryn Grayson failed to capture Moore's magic at all, and the leading man was Merv Griffin!

Bumping for a fascinating topic I've often wondered about, particularly in relation to MacDonald.%0D %0D Also, was Eddy's singing more accomplished/impressive than MacDonald's, or were they pretty much on the same level vocally?

Grace Moore was good, but I still don't think she managed to capture the technical qualities of Jeanette MacDonald. It wasn't that Jeannett's voice was thin, it was that she had a truer pure-er quality about her voice Crace Moore couldn't match. She also has the best tecnique I've heard any opera singer have with her use of "V "Vibrato." %0D

I just sat through my first Jeanette MacDonald movie recently. Only as an adult could I appreciate her talent and awesome beauty.

How are you all able to discuss Grace Moore and the quality of her voice when most evidence leads us to believe that her films and recordings are unavailable? I wouldn't even be able to identify her in a lineup yet I could pick out Helen Traubel, Lily Pons and Rise Stevens. %0D %0D Are any of her films on DVD?

I only wish LB Mayer had cast a few more appealing men opposite Jeanette than Nelson. It's a rare treat seeing her costar with Clark Gable and Allan Jones.

'Grayson didn't do well as Guenevere in the first national company of CAMELOT, and left the show early in the tour, so the idea of her singing opera is ridiculous.'

By that logic, Joan Sutherland would have made one terrific career in musical comedy..

Mario Lanza had done some operas and could have had made that his career.%0D %0D Not sure why Jane Powell is even on this list. She doesnt have an operatic type voice.

Lanza had a great voice.

Nelson Eddy was an opera singer, in fact, he sang Wagner.

In the right repertoire, Deanna could have sung opera. Jeannette MacDonald sang opera, but she did ridiculous things like Butterfly. She was just a lyric and probably better suited to operetta.

Grace Moore had a better voice than MacDonald and she was an opera singer. Her movies show up from time to time on TCM.

Mario Lanza was a spinto tenor, and a trained one, meaning his voice was bigger than a lyric tenor that would sing Donizetti. He sang opera; in fact, he was discovered singing at the Hollywood Bowl. He was at Tanglewood and received glowing reviews in the New York Times for both Boheme and Pinkerton. Before he died, an opera company in Rome offered him his choice of operas to perform, but he did before he could do any.

Licia Albanese said there were a lot of urban legends about Lanza: that his voice was small, that he couldn't learn music, that his arias had to be edited phrase by phrase. She said it was all complete crap, he had everything anyone could ever need.

It's not true that you need a big voice to sing opera. You need to sing in your right repertoire. Bidu Sayou had the smallest voice in the world and you could hear her in the last seat of the Met.

Grace Moore truly is a mystery. Are all of her films literally lost or bound up in some cutody fights? Or is there just no current interest? How can none of the films be available?

True, Columbia wasn't as big as MGM but it wasn't a minor studio and produced most of Rita Hayworth's films, which are often seen on TV and Dvds.

[R20] I have to agree about Moore. I love MacDonald but Moore's voice was far superior.

Grayson could have sung coloratura roles in opera, just not lyric coloratura.

Do not know about finding full films, but have been enjoying this bit of Grace Moore for ages.

I'm shocked by all this love for Grayson. I always found her unbearable as a singer and as an actress.

I loved Jane Powell's voice.

Loved her singing the Oscar winner It's a Most Unusual Day.

R34=Miss Rhode Island

Where would Irene Dunne have fit into all of this?

Grace Moore did not have Leading Lady looks. She looked like a cross between Joan Davis and Gracie Allen.

Katherine Grayson had an offer from New York to sing at the met and she wanted out of her MGM contract but L.B. Mayer told her millions of people will see you as a movie star but not that many will see you on the stage.

He wouldn't let her out of her contract anyway.

She chose to be the bigger star.

What about Miss Lilly Pons?

Supposedly, Dana Andrews was a trained opera singer but 20th Century Fox still dubbed him in State Fair (not an opera, of course!) and never cast him in other musicals.

[quote]Though I love all 3 of them, they are so out of touch with today's standards of popular singing and stardom

They could never meet the standards today. It took a lot of work for me to be the #1 female vocalist in the nation. I left those three in my dust.

"That's easy: Carole Lombard and Grace Moore. I was a rebel too!"

--Gloria Swanson, AIRPORT 1975

I never understood these Minnie Mouse mosquito-voiced coloraturas like Lily Pons and Galli-Curci having opera careers. And someone here said Deanna Durbin etc. didn't have big enough voices? Listen to those two. Boy, times were different. They were giving these women ballbuster roles like Violetta, Lucia, and Gilda. There is NO WAY either one of them could be heard in the second act of Rigoletto. Gilda looks like a coloratura role, as does Violetta, but Verdi wrote them for the same spinto voice that he wrote all his operas for. In fact, Toscanini asked Zinka Milanov to sing Gilda and she said, the coloraturas will kill me. He said, it's not a coloratura part.

Nowadays Violetta would NEVER go to a coloratura, but they still do cast Gilda that way from time to time. Big mistake. As my friend said, you stand there in the second act thinking well, maybe somebody can hear me.

As far as their voices, Lily Pons was okay. I don't remember being crazy about Galli-Curci. They were HUGE stars. I guess it's hard to judge by recordings from back then. I have seen Pons in the movies. I do like her Lakme. She had a good technique.

Before he went to Hollywood, Eddy sang the part of the Drum Major in the US premiere of Wozzeck under Stokowski with the Philadelphia Orchestra.

Jeannette had a horrible tendency to go sharp, esp. late in her career. She did her best work in her four early films with Chevalier. She studied for years with the legendary Lotte Lehman, who thought she had the goods for a successful classical career but she waited far too long to seriously devote herself to it. She did get good reviews for her opera performances, notably as Juliette and Margarite.

Alan Jones had a great operatic voice and was quite handsome in his day.

I adore Allan Jones' Donkey Serenade.

[quote]Alan Jones had a great operatic voice and was quite handsome in his day.

When young, he starred as "The Student Prince." I saw him in his later years in that musical. This time he was playing the old professor. His voice was still wonderful and blended beautifully with the prince on "Golden Days."

I think Lauritz Melchior, Mario Lanza, Allan Jones, Tony Martin, and Nelson Eddy had the most beautiful male voices in film. Runnerup tenor: James Merton

For women, I love Deanna Durbin, and I guess I would choose Grace Moore.

Why didn't Tony Martin become a major movie star?

He starred in MGM's Ziegfeld Girl and sang You Stepped Out of a Dream so gorgeously. He was incredibly handsome, married at the time to mega-star Alice Faye and MGM and Fox both lacked a pop male singing star in their stables.

What was wrong with Tony??

Tony Martin = Drink, drank, drunk

Tony lived to be 101.

[quote]Runnerup tenor: James Merton

R48, I think you meant James Melton.

[quote]Durbin and Lanza maybe with some more training.

This is correct. Lanza especially. I would add that Jeanette MacDonald THOUGHT she could be.

[R52]Thanks, I remembered it later. I knew there was something off!

[quote]Where would Irene Dunne have fit into all of this?

Irene Dunne trained as a classical singer but she failed her only audition at the Met. She settled for a career in light opera and musical theater, most famously as Magnolia in the first national tour of SHOW BOAT, a role she revived in the first and best film version.

Irene was also a replacement in the role of Irene in the Broadway company of IRENE.

Jane Powell really sells "Chacun le Sait" in this clip from ATHENA. I don't ordinarily like Powell, but she sings this pretty damn well.

You all realize, of course, that I studied opera as well. I even cut a record, that was anonymously played for L.B., who was, of course, enthralled. When he found out it was me he nixed my singing in movies as to not destroy dear Jeanette's career.

Whoa! I didn't realize Joan Caulfield studied opera.

Was Joan Caulfield dubbed in The Petty Girl? I always loved that little gem of a film.

Opera star Lawrence Tibbett, nominated for a Best Actor Oscar for "Rogue Song", had quite a successful run in films in the 30s.

Jeanette could possibly have been a very good Opera singer had she started earlier in her career. For her appearances in Gounod's "Faust" and "Romeo et Juliette", she trained for years to increase her skill and vocal power. Working with the celebrated Lotte Lehmann, whose career was legendary, she impressed Lehmann with her dedication and hard work. She didn't need to as she was an enormously successful and popular singer, still packing in audiences on concert tours, but chose to see whether she could do it and for that deserves admiration. She knew there were better voices, but she never stopped trying to improve hers. Below are references and quotes with regard to her work with Lehmann:

"Beaumont Glass writes: Lotte and Jeanette MacDonald began working together in the summer of 1944, to prepare the role of Marguerite in Faust for some performances with the Chicago Opera. After their first two-hour session, Miss MacDonald telephoned Constance and told her that the lesson with Lehmann had been a revelation, “as if I had been in a dark room and suddenly a window was opened and sunshine flooded all around me.”

After their work together, Lotte wrote:… “There is nothing that could give me more satisfaction than to think that I really help you to develop what is hidden in your soul: I cannot make you a great artist if you are not one with all your being. And you are: it is almost miraculous how quickly you are able to bring to life what has up till now only slumbered in your heart. You have always much too much been concerned about the technique of singing. And also the fear to ‘overdo’ has held you back. Seeing what you are able to do after such a short time, I don’t doubt that the possibilities are almost unlimited for you, especially as a concert singer.”

One thing that I like about the pairing of Jeanette MacDonald and Nelson Eddy is that they complement each other's weaknesses so beautifully-- Eddy was the better singer with a much more powerful voice, while MacDonald did all the heavy lifting in terms of acting and made it look easy.

In their first film pairing in Naughty Marietta Nelson is almost cartoonishly stiff but she is marvelous. Near the end when Jeanette's character thinks that she's going to be forced to marry a man whom she detests, her fury and rebelliousness come across as absolutely genuine. It's a shame Nelson can't keep up with her, but he does much better in their next outing where he is perfectly cast as Canada's most strait-laced singing Mountie.

Mario Lanza, for sure, if he had the training and the discipline.

I love Durbin. Here she is singing Verdi with Anderson Cooper's stepfather way back in 1937.

Yes, Deanna had a good voice as I recall.

Unfortunately, she had the "little hand" syndrome and MGM dropped her contract in favor of Judy Garland.

Judy used to do a wicked impression of Deanna at parties though.

R49, there was a scandal involving Tony Martin in the early 40s, something to the effect that he had tried to bribe his way into a military commission. It was false, but he received a lot of bad publicity at the time. When he came back after the war, he was older and musicals were on their way out. He had a big pop career in the 50s, but those recordings don't really capture the true beauty of his voice. His high notes were absolutely sublime.

15 year-old Durbin, singing what is called "La Traviata", has little girl lungs. Also, nobody at Universal thought it bizarre that a teenager would sing the hysterical drinking song of a whore, or that Mischa Auer could play the flute.

It was Grace Moore night, tonight on TCM and I am hooked on her now.

I love "operatic pop", like Tom Jones, Pat Benatar and some of Elvis Presley's stuff.

This theme song by Rocky Roberts always gives me chills.

[quote]Not sure why Jane Powell is even on this list. She doesn't have an operatic type voice.

Mr. Puccini might have his own opinion...

They need to get off their asses and do the Rosa Ponselle story, already!

Does anyone remember Jessica Dragonette? Hugh radio star and seller of records, concert appearances from the 20s to 50s (perhaps longer) but she never gets mentioned. She bore a certain likeness to MacDonald and had a convent upbringing. Her marriage to a younger man provides backstory--I think they stayed together in NYC until her death in 1980--and yet who knows of her?

I remember Jessica Dragonette. She was the voice of Princess Glory opposite Lanny Ross as Prince David in the 1939 animated version of "Gulliver's Travels."