I don't think the other members of the What's My Line panel liked Dorothy Kilgallen, Part 3

Previous thread.

Why not #3? We haven't even explored the idea that John Daly had four sons and two daughters. All the sons were named John! George Foreman had nothing on him!!

Is there a story surrounding his divorce from his first wife?

Not that I've found. Wondering about his politics, I assume he was a liberal, since he married Earl Warren's daughter.

Odd. I always assumed he was on the conservative side. Maybe it's because after What's My Line he headed the conservative Voice of America radio network.

Of the four regulars, Daly was the youngest, born in 1914. That surprised me; I would have guessed he was older. Bennett is the oldest, born in 1898. John seems older than his age and Bennett younger, so I figured they were close in age, but in fact they're a generation apart. John wouldn't even remember World War I, and Bennett was old enough to have fought in it (although he didn't).

As for the "girls", Arlene was born in 1907. Hard to believe she turned 50 halfway through WML's run, but it's probably as much her personality as the way she looks that makes her seem younger. Dorothy was the second-youngest, born in 1913. She's the only one of the panel who (to me) actually looks her age, neither older nor younger.

Arlene, with feeling, in the legitimate theater with co-star Joseph Cotten.

Victor Moan

Arlene is the reason the word vivacity was invented.

R9 = Martin Gabel.

Arlene also had that certain something, R9.

Or was it vivisection?

I wonder if anyone else has noticed?

Often in the earlier1950s episodes, Bennett and JCD appear to be wearing tuxes but they're not black, or not as black as their formal bowties. So, perhaps they were told that black photographed as a dead void and they had custom tuxes made for themselves?

Vic seems to have a lot of bling for an army man.

Eddie Fisher

They all laughed when Dorothy asked Are you Vic Damone as if she had guessed it. I was waiting for them to remove their blindfolds.

Bennett said in his oral history that he and John eventually realized they could get away with wearing dark suits with bow ties and they would read as tuxedos on the black and white screen. Not sure if they could still get away with it after the switch to color.

R13, I don't think they're in full black tie. For example, I've noticed that John's shirts have regular buttons, not studs. Also neither of them wear jackets with satin lapels or collars, ever. I've seen Bennett in trousers that are not black, and I don't think either of them wears trousers with black satin stripes. It all seems counter-productive to me. Why not just wear regular black tie? The "girls", after all, wear cocktail dresses. I'm sure they both have a wardrobe of tuxedos. Or wear dark suits and ties, which work with cocktail dresses, too. This sort of half-way formal just makes them look like waiters.

[quote] Often in the earlier1950s episodes, Bennett and JCD appear to be wearing tuxes but they're not black, or not as black as their formal bowties. So, perhaps they were told that black photographed as a dead void and they had custom tuxes made for themselves?

The tuxes might be Midnight Blue. A popular color for tuxes in that era (besides black). They would be worn with a black tie.

Tuxes were sometimes worn with plain dress shirts in that time frame. For a less totally formal look. You can see it in a ot of old movies.

I see, R20. And also no satin on the lapels or trousers? I get the idea of being a bit less formal, but it doesn't come across well on black and white television, given the poor quality image (much below that of film) that people would see in their homes on the live broadcasts.

R21 The image of the live broadcasts wasn’t poor quality. Live TV was very good quality. Kinescopes filmed off of live TV (all that’s left today) are of poor quality

Maybe they didn’t wear satin lapels because they would shine too much on camera. That kid of thing was a problem. As were sequins, or diamonds. Sometimes on old broadcasts light blue shirts would be worn rather than white, because white could be too reflecive.

Bennet gives a fan his autograph

Bennett used to say that one of the joys of doing the show was only having to be in the studio thirty minutes prior to the broadcast. I expect he preferred to wear a dark suit with a bowtie so that he didn't have to change clothes before/after the show. He could do the show and go home.

I can always tell if a show is from the early '60s if I see Dorothy wearing her wiglet.

Jeanette MacDonald.

r24 Presumably BENNETT knew how to spell his name correctly.

Nelson Eddy 1 of 2.

Who is Barbara Kelly?

Thanks for all the responses re Bennett's choice of wardrobe.

Yes, I suspect he just wore a dark grey or blue suit which was probably preferred for lighting and purposes and just popped on a formal bow tie in the makeup chair to dress t up. As it was Sunday he might have worn something more casual at Mt. Kisco during the day, like a cardigan and some old slacks, but changed into a suit to drive into the city for filming the show. He's of a generation and class of men that would have dressed up in a suit simply to come into NYC.

Barbara Kelly has a ballpark resemblance to Arlene.

I've always wondered if Dorothy and Arlene had designers or, at the very least stores like Saks, Bendel's and Bloomingdale's, offering and loaning them clothes to wear on the show. Or were they perhaps paid a certain amount in wardrobe expenses as part of their season contracts?

Has anyone else noticed that as Dorothy aged, her nose got much larger? I know that sounds crazy but just compare some photos from the early 50s to just months before she died.

[quote]I've always wondered if Dorothy and Arlene had designers or, at the very least stores like Saks, Bendel's and Bloomingdale's, offering and loaning them clothes to wear on the show.

If they did, it would've been mentioned prominently in the closing credits.

r11: That book is fascinating,, with lots of good, solid advice.

Arlene has a long chapter on "The Green Termites" which explores how you cannot be charming if you hate or are intolerant or racis, giving accounts of the ugliness of Southern segregation . (pretty advanced for 1960) She also mentioned being turned down at a fancy co-opt because she was married to a Jew.

That and her taking part in both drag version of "What's My Line" in Cherry Grove in 1953 and AIDS benefits in 1988 indicates that Arlene was by far he most progressive of all the WHAT'S MY LINE? panelists.

At least I never married one.

Hang on to your wiglet, Dorothy!

R29 I know how to spell it, also, but the letter T doesn’t always work well on my keyboard. Anyway, it gave you a chance to correct me! How kind.

Arlene and Martin Gabel were good eggs, as was their son Peter (who passed away in 2022 sadly).

Martin produced and/or acted in many a Broadway production, but he never had much of a hit, did he?

I think Martin Gabel played the psychiatrist in Divorce, American Style, with Dick Van Dyke and Debbie Reynolds.

Maybe Bennett had an apartment in the city, as well as living in Mt. Kisko?

[quote]Mt. Kisko

Oh, dear.

Martin Gabel had an uncredited role in the cult classic Lord Love a Duck, playing a Hollywood producer of teen/beach flicks. He was wickedly funny, talking about production costs and plans for his next film -while in line at the unemployment office. I always wondered why he was uncredited, as there were several people credited with much smaller roles.

I wonder if Arlene thought she had a thrilling future in movies ahead of her after One Two Three and The Thrill of It All.

According to IMDB, her debut was in 1938 in Too Much Johnson, a title that must have amused many.

[quote]I wonder if Arlene thought she had a thrilling future in movies ahead of her after One Two Three and The Thrill of It All.

Arlene was self-aware, r46.

[quote] her debut was in 1938 in Too Much Johnson, a title that must have amused many.

R46 Probably not that many. It was a filmed portion (silent) of an Orson Welles-directed play but was never shown, as it turned out.

Also, Wikipedia says she made her film debut in 1932, Universal's Murders in the Rue Morgue.

As I posted earlier...

Nelson Eddy 2

What's to like?

I really enjoyed the cute (considering 1960 male grooming) pickle packer who preceded Mr. Eddy at r50.

Also, happened upon Joey Bishop as the MG. What was his rep like? Was he considered a good guy? What's the DL opinion?

Who remembers Joey Bishop anymore?

[quote]I've always wondered if Dorothy and Arlene had designers or, at the very least stores like Saks, Bendel's and Bloomingdale's, offering and loaning them clothes to wear on the show.

Arlene was on the board of directors of Bonwit Teller (not sure when) so I would imagine at least some of her gowns came from there.

ingemar johansson

[quote]Who remembers Joey Bishop anymore?

Even I forgot about him.

previous ingemar

This is interesting as I didn't know this show,videos were fun to watch,Dorothy,Arlene. OH,OH,just remembered when Janette McDonald did "This is your life" so much there to unpack-Anyone?

I liked Joey Bishop

I like blue.

Is it Miss or Mrs.?

Do you perform your services outdoors as well as indoors?

I love servicing a guy outdoors!

Ingemar was hot in 1959 and hotter in 1960! WEHT?

Ingemar died in 2009, leaving behind a (second or third) wife and five children. He had been suffering from Alzheimer's since the mid 90s.

Wiki

Julie Andrews.

^ It's funny when Arlene guesses but can't get it out and Dorothy tells her, Go ahead!

Arlene Francis-Alive again!

[quote]Julie Andrews.

Wearing long white gloves!

Bad teeth and boxer's nose.

We're just going to flip them all over.

Iroquois cutie designs Valentine Day cards, Peter Lorre who does not.

Have you and I ever waltzed at the Waldorf for the March of Dimes?

Getting back to JCD's first wife, IIRC she was an alchoholic who died when she fell down a flight of stairs. Ditto Edna St Vincent Millay.

[quote]Ditto Edna St Vincent Millay

Her candle burned at both ends.

I'd be an alco too if I had to listen to him.

I love Peter Lorre. Not an actor since like him. I loved the Bugs Bunny parodies of him.

1279 posts in 3 threads and Arlene's diamond heart has yet to be mentioned??

It was stolen, r79, it's too painful to talk about.

And we talked about it in an older thread -years prior to part one of this thread.

Dorothy being Dorothy.

Why would she ask such bizarre questions?

Well, Dorothy was trying to show off the intimate relations she had with certain celebs, I guess. But I don't think she ever got a yes on any of those nutty questions.

^^^ I never saw it work for her. It DID work a few times for Bennett though. "Have we had lunch together this week?" "Were you and your wife at my home in the last two weeks?" -That sort of thing.

I always got the impression that Bennett twigged to the identity of the mystery guest early on, but liked the game to continue. He later said as much -and I don't think it was idle boasting.

Dorothy's question worked with Johnny Mathis and Gene Kelly.

Could I hold this in my hand?

I always cracked up about how much Mr. Cerf hate rock and roll.

Cesar Romero

So, how many of them actually did study dentistry?

[quote]I wonder if Arlene thought she had a thrilling future in movies ahead of her after One Two Three and The Thrill of It All.

She gives the answer here:

The look on Cesar's face when Bennett asks if he is under 50 is priceless.

Do you work out of doors?

R88, Bennett was very representative of the generations preceding the Boomers in hating rock & roll. On IGaS, Steve Allen & Henry Morgan were appalled by it, too.

Can you imagine if they rebooted this show now what kinds of occupations there would be?

Brand representative

Influencer

Pass-around bottom

Intimacy coordinator

COVID consultant

Life coach

Trans Activist

Is your product worn above the waist?

Datalounge Moderator

Does what you do require any special training?

r91's marvelous clip makes me wonder of Arlene took Mr. Selznick's advice and got a nose job. What do you all think?

Her family must have been well-connected to certain worlds if she could wrangle an interview with him at age 16.

Poor Gary Crosby. They mention his father about six times.

Play at home!

Steve Allen's contempt for rock music bordered on obsession. He loved to do a bit where he did dramatic readings of rock song lyrics, making them sound ridiculous. I think I remember him doing that on The Tonight Show as late as the 1980s.

Here he is hosting I've Got a Secret and humiliating the Shangri-Las with that bit, after which they had to come on stage and perform while the "adults" mocked them.

R104 To be fair "The Leader of the Pack" was mocked by a lot of people back then, not because it was rock but because the lyrics were so corny. It was ripe for parody.

Steve Allen was into jazz but still he regularly featured rock on his "The Steve Allen Show" in the 1950s. He was one of the first to have Elvis as a guest in 1956.

Also Steve Allen's whole shtick was to be a bit of a wiseguy.

I didn't know that Steve Allen invented the question Is it bigger than a bread basket.

Mickey Mantle was cute.

Are you a he-man?

He threw a mean fuck—

Are you a switch hitter?

Allen had a lot of jazz artists on his show, and I recently saw him hosting Jack Kerouac reading from one of his works to a piano accompaniment. Pretty bold for primetime TV.

Bread box. Not basket.

I don't think DLers who weren't watching TV in the 1950s understand what a huge star Steve was (however briefly) and how much influence he had on American's perceptions of show biz via his own TV show.

Indeed, and those of us who were aware of his influence and taste could never understand Jayne Meadows.

Steve Allen once introduced The Outsiders: "....singing their hit song 'Bend Me, Shape Me' - from their album 'Grab Me, Stab Me'".........

Marisa Pavan.

Do you perform your duties on land?

Chuck Connors on the panel. He was so fucking hot. AND TALL. Watch the first contestant. Younger people were so poised during this time.

Red Skeleton is unbearable. I'm not going to even attempt Danny Kaye.

[quote] Watch the first contestant. Younger people were so poised during this time.

Here's her obit, R118.

^ Another obit for the contestant, with a photo closer to how she appeared in 1960.

Does anyone else look up former contestants? With unmarried women, especially of that era, it's more difficult because most of them did marry & take on the last name of their husbands.

I had to laugh at the tentative whistles at Joane.

Miss Westerbrook...er, Miss Westermark.

That’s a simple, lovely obit. She had a good life.

awwww Joane had it going on.

Especially since the obit mentioned the usher job she had in college, kinda surprised there was no mention of her then-WML appearance.

[quote] Does anyone else look up former contestants?

We can keep this thread going for some time if we do that.

I love these threads. I love WML and IGAS. However, including the two people I live with, there is no one I know who likes these shows even a little. So I can chat about them here.

R126 it says right there at Legacy.com—she was on WML

Chuck reminds me of Willem Dafoe.

My bad, R129. I just looked at the first posted obit ... which made no mention of WML.

Did Willem Dafoe do a gay porn loop?

Bennett was still referring to the Giants as the "New York" Giants.

My cousin was on Jeopardy in 1987… her appearance was lately posted to the Jeopardy archive…and their related message board. When I told her that she had been tracked by her LinkedIn page all these years later she was 😵‍💫

R133 the hurt was still real…

Chuck as MG on the color syndicated.

R133, I worked with a millennial who was born & raised in Buffalo before moving to the Midwest to go to graduate school & then settle in the area. He was unaware that the constant reference to the "New York football Giants" was a nod to the time when there was the New York "baseball" Giants.

Wasn't Chuck's porn nickname "The Bat"?

Does your occupation have anything to do with food or drink?

Did I bump into you in the produce section at the Piggly Wiggly in Florida recently?

[quote]Bread box. Not basket.

Does anyone still use a breadbox?

We always had them when I was a kid.

We did too, r141, but they take up counter space.

I do!

I have a breadbox—it’s an opaque blue orb or “egg” from Alessi. 24 years later and it still works! ()

Breadboxes keep the cockroaches out!

[quote]24 years later and it still works!

It's a breadbox, r144, why wouldn't it?

Where's the clip of the chorus boy who was in Dorothy's husband's Broadway show?

Don't get too excited. He's handsome but hardly a boy (but he is billed as a Chorus Boy IIRC).

R144 sarcasm!

R146^^

Did Chuck get the Bat nickname from his baseball days?

Marilyn Maxwell

Fernando Lamas

Who had the bigger dick: Martin Gabel, Bennett Cerf, or John Daly?

Bennett probably had a nice juicy dick.

Microwaves are the breadboxes of today.

True, r155.

[quote]I don't think DLers who weren't watching TV in the 1950s understand what a huge star Steve was (however briefly)

From the early 1950s through the 1960s. Steve had a good run.

He had a syndicated talk show in the early 1960s that our local station broadcast in the late afternoon. I loved that show and would watch it after school.

David Letterman's wacky style owes a lot to Steve Allen. Steve did it all first. (with special mention to Ernie Kovacs.)

From that show (this is so cool):

“You can blame the decline of the breadbox on the advent of preservatives in bread, and the packaging of commercial bread in plastic bags.”

Breadboxes kept bread fresh.

Arlene had a huge fartbox

I like Marisa Pavan's hair. And so does she.

Re SteveA llen: Anyone remember SHMOCK SHMOCK!

I remember it, R162, but don't remember what it was supposed to be or why it was regarded as funny.

Steve Allen was responsible for bringing Don Knotts, Louis Nye and Tom Poston to TV audiences with his Man on the Street interviews. They were all hilarious.

R157, I enjoyed Ernie Kovacs’ appearances as a guest panelist. He was just so bizarre and zany sometimes. His shows were a bit before my time, but my parents loved him and still talked about him some years after his death.

I wonder where Kovacs' career would have gone if he hadn’t died in car crash in ’62.

Steve Allen and his Tonight show were an early TV phenomenon, and he was doing great, then the network had the idea he should do a prime time show, which didn’t take off. Eventually Jack Parr took over the Tonight show and it became a different type of show, but very popular. Steve never really regained his momentum on network TV.

If he had stayed with the Tonight show he probably would have had the job for years and years. At least that’s my theory.

[quote] I enjoyed Ernie Kovacs’ appearances as a guest panelist.

At his funniest.

PS Steve’s original version of “The Steve Allen Show” did run on network TV for several seasons, and in syndication -maybe 6 or 7 seasons, not a flop - but I was just saying if he had stayed with Tonight I think he would have been a late-night institution, like Carson later became.

I only remember his later, syndicated shows—which were pretty funny.

Years later - maybe in the’90s (?) I remember he did a tour of small comedy clubs, mostly where the young, up and coming comedians played.

R49 Arlene’s voice and her vocal mannerisms were a lot like Claudette Colbert’s. On the show she also sounds like Colbert, to me.

Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe Steve Allen's prime time show went up against The Ed Sullivan Show at 8 pm on Sundays. Nothing was gonna beat Ed back in those days but Steve did last for several years and did attract a hipper audience than Ed.

R170 You are correct, sir.

Thanks, r171. I was too young to remember watching Steve on his version of The Tonight Show, but I do remember his Sunday prime time show which my family often preferred to Ed Sullivan. Just think, all of that talent was coming live and weekly from New York City!

R172 I only saw Steve’s later (syndicated) show from LA, that I can remember. It’s cool you saw the Sunday one.

Heigh ho, Steverino!

I remember on the syndicated show an audience member had brought Steve a lasagna. Marlon Brando was the next guest. Steve offered him some but Brando didn't want any. However that didn't stop Steve. He did the entire interview while eating. It was so awkward and funny.

Steve Allen introduced America to Bill Dana, which begat "My Name ... Jose Jimenez." That that was funny is as bewildering to me now as was Marty Allen's "Hello Dere."

Hello Dere!

Eddie Bracken. He is funny reacting to being asked Are you over 40 and Are you Donald O'Connor?

When Arlene had to wear a patch in 1960, John Daly mentioned Miss Hathaway of 1960. This is the first record of 4 times that Arlene wore an eye patch. Reported causes included Peter inadvertently poking her, shingles, and inflections from nail scrapes. In 1962, she sunburned her eyes in summer stock and appeared on a broadcast in sunglasses.

Somehow, Steve kept his cool. I grew up in the 70s and early 80s—we all still knew who Steve was —and Jayne for that matter 🤷🏻‍♂️

Most of the celebs in the ‘70s were older. We only had three or four channels, we didn't have internet, we naturally saw people like Steve on TV.

Game shows and talk shows of all kinds were ubiquitous on TV. And TV was the main source of home entertainment.

Really amazed at interest in this thread, not in bad way as I’m a senior ,find it fascinating. May have already been mentioned Steve and Jayne selling “Mocha Mix” non-dairy coffee creamer AND Jayne appeared on The Nanny season 4-“Taxi Chase” Oy-bury me…

[quote]Eventually Jack Parr took over the Tonight show

Oh, dear.

Who do we have to blame for Soupy Sales?

Steve and Jayne played Lech and Olga Oseransky, the birth parents of Dr. Victor Ehrlich (Ed Begley, Jr.) on "St. Elsewhere."

Two things. I still have a breadbox in the kitchen and I once sat next to Steve Allen at lunch.

Apart from being struck by his proximity, what I recall were his speech patterns (he was "Steve Allen" on camera and off) and his extremely elaborate hairpiece.

My companion, a British academic, didn't know who he was nor what to make of his toupée.

That’s why no one actually likes Brits…just sayin’

Are you married to someone who is also in the entertainment business?

Catherine O'Hara did a great version on SCTV.

Meh. The best one was the man doing Kirk Douglas.

That SCTV parody was almost very funny.

[quote]Somehow, Steve kept his cool. I grew up in the 70s and early 80s—we all still knew who Steve was —and Jayne for that matter.

The New York Times didn't seem to quite know who Jayne was. When she died in 2015 at age 95, its online obit initially credited her with having played Alice Kramden on "The Honeymooners." I can't believe that no one at the Times stopped that from being published. It was corrected fairly quickly.

Jayne was extremely annoying.

Jayne? Honeymooners? No. We're running out of time panel.

[quote] Apart from being struck by his proximity, what I recall were his speech patterns (he was "Steve Allen" on camera and off) and his extremely elaborate hairpiece.

He stated sporting his toupee sometime after hosting the syndicated - & godawful - syndicated version of IGaS.

[quote]Jayne was extremely annoying.

It was her dreadful laugh. On the plus side...she could speak Chinese...

R295 I was better read—my father taught me to read a lot more than the NYT….the LAT, the WSJ, Harper’s , The Atlantic, The Nation, The New Republic, SI, Time, TV Guide, The NY Review of Books, and more.

R195^

Jayzus— R193

Working with Kate...

We need to reboot "What's My Shoe Size" as "Verificatia of Sizemeat."

Elizabeth Ashley with a beehive.

Have we met?

Jees Elizabeth had no post-guess chat.

That interview with Jayne Meadows at r201 is so fascinating. She goes on and on about her extensive Broadway stage career and the spectacular beginning of her Hollywood film career and yet we all always thought of her as merely Steve's wife, Audrey's sister and a rather inferior game show panelist with an annoying laugh and cheap wigs.

I really want to watch that Hepburn movie she was in UNDERCURRENT. Anyone seen it?

Steve always pushed Jayne as a major dramatic talent.

Trailer...

Ratty Korean wigs. The both of them.

R184 The show was called Tonight, at the time. At least when Steve hosted it. (Assuming your “Oh, Dear” was about my not capitalizing.) Tonight was sometimes called “the Tonight show”. NBC had the Today and Tonight shows, at the time.

R166/210, it’s Jack Paar, not Parr.

R210 I think the "Oh, dear" was about your spelling of Jack Paar.

Oh, dear. And shame on you.

R212 Oh, Okay. I feel deep shame.

Those here old enough to have seen Jack Paar's Tonight Show might remember his daughter Randy. She was a frequent guest and he mentioned her often.

"Randy Paar.....died on Saturday after falling off a platform at Grand Central Terminal."

From the first thread:

"Randy Paar, Jack Paar's then-teenaged daughter, was one of three - the others being Johnny Carson & Broadway columnist Earl Wilson - to whom Ed Sullivan said the Beatles had dedicated their songs when they first performed on his stage Feb. 9, 1964."

R179, I’m working my way through WML chronologically and just finished 1957. Arlene wore a patch toward the end of that year as well. If the four times you describe came in 1960 or later, then that makes five times. She must have had some sort of chronic eye problem. In one of the “patch” ’57 shows, Bennett said that she had been in a lot of pain over the previous few days but had been a real trooper, or something like that.

R192, it’s more than that. By the time SCTV aired in the early ‘80s, the original WML was all but forgotten by SCTV’s younger audience, and there was nowhere to see it in reruns. That the SCTV writers and cast created such a careful simulacrum is really a tribute. That’s what makes the parody so much fun; it was done out of affection for the show rather than in a mocking or derisive spirit.

I don't know about that, R217. SCTV's prime audience was Baby Boomers. Represented here by ElderGays. The same people behind the enormous popularity of WML-related threads.

R216 Unless she was in the state police or the Army, it’s trouper.

It is amazing the hundreds of thousands of views and endless comments this show elicits on YouTube.

One of Woody Allen's early movies - I think it was Everything You Always Wanted to Know About Sex - included a WML parody.

Jayne Meadows was in a play, The Gazebo, on Broadway - ran 266 performances in the late ‘50s. (Co-star was Walter Slezak.) Made into a movie with Debbie Reynolds and Glenn Ford.

She was okay in Undercurrent, she was supposed look like Hepburn in the movie. She sort of did, not really. Jayne was in several movies in that period - David And Bathsheba, The Lady In The Lake, Enchantment, The Fat Man, Luck Of The Irish, Song Of The Thin Man, etc.

To the uninitiated, Jayne was an early, long-running IGaS panelist.

I think Andrea should have played Dorothy and Catherine should have played Arlene in that SCTV sketch.

Let the Armenian play the Armenian, r224.

I have this 78...

the flip side

R225 Except whoever she was doing, it wasn’t Arlene Francis.

Gazebo:

I disagree, r227...whatever.

Jane and Audrey on the Dorsey Brothers show doing a song written by Steverino. (Out of sync.)

Audrey singing with Jack.

George Hamilton

One of my favorite film scenes is when Audrey slaps Gig Young through the Automat window in "That Touch of Mink." (Start at 5:45.) Later she throws food at him through the window.

R231 George was sooo handsome.

R232 That automat was on East 42nd.

If it makes r210 feel any better, there is a correction at the end of Randy Paar's NY Times obit at r214 that apologizes for spelling the family name as Parr, not Paar.

Oh, how the mighty had fallen by 2012 that the NY Times could misspell Jack Paar's name.

Sounds like Randy Paar made a good and life for herself and was an influential litigator in the NY courts. Sad about her terrible death though....

[quote]Oh, how the mighty had fallen by 2012 that the NY Times could misspell Jack Paar's name.

I hope the person responsible was fired.

I miss the days of those highly publicized NY show biz feuds. It seems like either Dorothy Kilgallen or Jack Paar or both of them were inevitably in the middle of many of them.

I'm a long-time WML nerd but I just can't imagine watching these episodes, no matter your age, and not finding them delightful and often hilarious. And an incredible time capsule of American culture, attitudes and life in general.

I couldn't be friends with anyone who doesn't enjoy WML.

[quote]Jayne was extremely annoying.

[quote]It was her dreadful laugh.

God yes. She didn't laugh. She BRAYED. I can still hear it in my head, but I can't even begin to describe the awfulness of it. When I was a kid, I really didn't know yet who Jayne Meadows was, but I remember my mother talking about how much she HATED Jayne's laugh.

Steve and Jayne had a very long marriage, so they must have been doing something right.

It wasn't a bray, r238, as much as a laugh with a back laugh.

r239 - Their devotion to each other always seemed sincere.

In its print edition, R234, the NYT recently referred to our 35th president as “John F. Kennedy Jr.”

Actor Jack Paar in the 1951 film "Love Nest"

18:35

R238 My mom, too. She used to imitate it. Mom also thought Jayne was “a phony.”

I really enjoy Jayne’s reminiscences on YouTube, btw. She’s a good show buisiness storyteller. Steve and Jayne were good friends with Judy. I think she had both of them on her show at different times.

Also good friends with Lucille Ball but says the Lucy Show she guested on was bad.

Steve Allen topless.

I couldn't be friends with anyone who doesn't enjoy WML.

R237 has stated their boundaries.

Roy Campanella chewing gum.

Roy has some junk in the trunk.

[quote]It wasn't a bray, R238, as much as a laugh with a back laugh.

Whatever it was, it should have been on the soundtrack for a haunted house attraction at an amusement park.

The panel's jobs would have been a lot easier if somebody had taught them the word "mammal" and what it means vs. what "animal" means, so they would stop asking "is it an animal that you work with? Not a fish or insect?" The contestants who worked with fish invariably look confused by this question. How do they answer? Time for a small conference with JCD!

Sometimes, just asking "is the animal you work with a mammal?" would have cleared up a lot of unnecessary questions.

Well, the bigger confusing question was always "Is your product something that grows?"

But then, Dorothy always loved to begin with extremely broad questions and narrow down very gradually to more specifics. It would keep her on camera longer.

Jayne Meadows is nowhere to be seen in that trailer for UNDERCURRENT. She's not even billed in the title credits.

Have we had a clip where you can hear Jayne's bray laugh?

Undercurrent

Undercurrent was Robert Taylor’s first postwar film. It was one of Robert Mitchum’s first big films. A Hepburn biographer claimed she was critical of Mitchum, putting him down, which he vehemently denied in a Dick Cavett interview I saw.

It’s one of those MGM movies where everything is the best - cast, director, sets, costumes - everything except the story they’re lavishing it all on. It’s sort of second rate and drawn out. Entertaining enough, and it was a big hit. Sort of a film noir/women’s picture.

This is the Lux Radio Theatre version (without Jayne):

Hepburn is miscast. She can play the rube who doesn't fit into smart society but not a woman in peril.

R258 Is it that she can’t play it, or she’s not easy to accept as a woman in peril because she has that “strong woman” image?

I don’t want to give away anything, but what’s so difficult to play when you’re supposed to be in physical danger and someone physically bigger and stronger is trying to overpower you?

It’s a 70 year old movie that no one saw even then. Spoil away!

[quote] Does anyone else look up former contestants?

So I'm the only person who does this?! I remember looking up a very charismatic, handsome circus performer/trapeze artist with uncharacteristically wild hair (for that era) & discovered he was married to a somewhat famous actress.

R260 That was for the one person who said he hadn’t seen it.

Anyhow, Taylor and Hepburn go horseback riding and in the course of the scene he tries to push her and her horse off a cliffside path. She gets away, but is felled by a branch. He grabs a rock and threatens to crush her head with it. More or less.

So - what could even “strong-willed Kate” have done in that sort of situation? She seemed believably threatened and terrified to me.

And, as already stated, it was a moneymaker.

According to Imdb it made a little over a million which was pretty good back then, especially for churned-out studio product that wasn't particularly expensive to Produce. Of course, that doesn't necessarily make it good.

No, it wasn’t good, but it wasn’t without entertainment value.

Bosley Crowther review that briefly mentions Jayne:

(What he’s talking about at the beginning is how Hepburn e up being saved from that situation I described.)

*how Hepburn ended up

Kathryn Card (Mrs. McGillicuddy on I Love Lucy) plays a wealthy Virginia horsewoman and has something to do with that fateful climax.

Would using your services make them happy?

Do you services apply to people below the waist?

Is your job usually held by a member of the opposite sex?

Is there more than one of you?

I've looked up many a contestant, too. The good-looking ones, of course. Imagine my shock at discovering that one was actually a friend of my family. He used to eat dinner at my grandparents' house whenever he was in the area. Sadly, most of them are long gone -but often their WML appearance is mentioned somewhere in their obituary.

My opinion of Hepburn as a strong woman comes from that scene in Pat and Mike where she fights off men who are attacking Spencer Tracy.

Well, r272, that was the character I was assigned to play. In Summertime, I was oh so fragile and vulnerable. Far more so, if I do say so myself, than that chubby character actress Shirley Booth in the play.

Joan Crawford as a mystery guest in 1964, with the always tiresome Victor Borge on the panel.

Huh, R274?

Joan's fanboys are in the audience. And she kisses ALL the panel before she exits.

Rabbit masks and Ed Wynn

Paul Muni copies Ed Wynn.

Sheree North.

Jayne Meadows the day after she married Steve Allen.

Arlene and Dorothy both stand for Jayne.

They respected their own, R282.

Jayne sure had some chicklets.

Steve doesn't look too pleased to see his new bride when she is revealed.

Billy Rose and a minister who's ready to fly right outta there.

That minister was so sweet!

Billy Rose was a meeskite.

You're telling me!

blub-blub

r289 Wet, she's a star. Dry--she ain't.

But wasn't Fanny's rude remark in reference to Esther Williams? Even if swimming star Eleanor Holm stole her little meeskite?

Someone above or before mentioned how they used to have the non-celebrity contestants sashay in front of the panelists at the beginning. I have noticed this a few times now and it does seem awkward. Happens in this episode where Ronald Reagan is the MG.

Arlene liked to feel their muscles, and Dorothy got off on checking the labels of their suits.

Dorothy and Arlene cornered Nancy in the green room, to get some tips.

[quote]Someone above or before mentioned how they used to have the non-celebrity contestants sashay in front of the panelists at the beginning. I have noticed this a few times now and it does seem awkward.

It really was awkward. When the non-celebrity contestants had to do that, they were rather quickly sent off stage once their occupations were revealed. After they stopped parading in front of the panel, they were allowed to shake the panelists' hands on their way out.

The Buckingham Palace Guard doesn't know how they score the game, and Joe DiMaggio .

They were also wise to cut the free guess before each game with a non-celeb began. Very tiresome and unfunny. Really, the show hit its stride only after Fred Allen (or Steve Allen, whichever came after the other) died. I guess around 1956.

R297, I think the regular panelists & John Charles Daly would disagree with you. They adored Fred Allen & probably thought the show was at its best during his brief reign.

A melancholy time

And, for good measure, the panel's tributes to Dorothy Kilgallen on the first show following her death. Steven Allen appears again, along with Kitty Carlisle. The tributes are are at the end of the program, as the panelists say good night.

Fun Fact: John Daly lived at the Imperial House. The building that Joan Crawford and Liza would later call home.

[quote]But wasn't Fanny's rude remark in reference to Esther Williams? Even if swimming star Eleanor Holm stole her little meeskite?

A common misconception reported as fact on numerous websites.

Middle-aged people sure looked like old people on kinescope.

He used the same line about Fred’s widow again with Dorothy’s widower. -5 for lack of originality.

The professional hockey player on the show with Cyd Charisse seems to have a lazy eye.

[quote]Middle-aged people sure looked like old people on kinescope.

Fred Allen, perhaps prophetically, looks like death warmed over in those old kinescopes.

R306 He always did.

Taking one of his regular late night strolls up New York's West 57th Street on Saturday night, March 17, 1956, Allen suffered a heart attack and died at the age of 61.

During the following night's regular Sunday broadcast of What's My Line? at 10:30 p.m., barely 24 hours following Allen's death, host John Daly preceded the program with a special message to the viewing audience. He stated that earlier in the day the producers had considered replacing the regular game play with a special memorial episode, but Allen's wife Portland Hoffa stated that she preferred the show be conducted as it always had been, indicating that this is what Allen would have wanted. The program then proceeded as normal, but with a noticeably subdued tone. Steve Allen (no relation) took Fred's chair on the panel. During the final ninety seconds of the program Steve Allen, Arlene Francis and Bennett Cerf (whose eyes began to tear) gave brief but heartfelt tributes to Fred. A somber Dorothy Kilgallen thanked Steve Allen for stepping in and helping them to carry on at a difficult moment; a similar on-air farewell would air after Kilgallen herself died unexpectedly in 1965.

[quote]Dorothy and Arlene cornered Nancy in the green room, to get some tips.

Dorothy could've gotten better tips from her husband.

Mayor Norma Walker in R300 looks like Michelle Phillips.

[quote] Fred Allen, perhaps prophetically, looks like death warmed over in those old kinescopes.

R306 Jack Benny was saying that about Fred during their radio “feud” in the late 1930s and the 1940s. Fred had a face made for radio. He was not making it in television, despite having been a major radio star. His quick wit was perfect for WML, and I think the WML regulars were happy to be able to keep Fred in front of the television audience.

How were the WML regulars keeping Fred in front of the audience?

Lock your doors and pull down the shades.

Never much of a fan of Fred Allen myself but those tributes at the end of the show following his untimely death had me tearing up, too! I would not go along with the kind poster upthread who called Fred a "quick wit.". He seemed anything but to me....

Agree. Fred seems like the geezer uncle who tries to insert a joke mid-conversation but rarely succeeds. His radio show must have been a riot!

R314 Have you ever listened to his radio show? He was incredibly quick. His ad-libs were so funny, sometimes. Especially if a joke bombed, he would come back with something hilarious. His sketches could be a riot, with his unscripted reactions. And there was something endearing about Fred, too.

I also liked his interactions with his wife, Portland, who would make bad or corny jokes. He could get three or four laughs, sometimes, out of reacting to her.

Ok, whatever. But I don't think WML showed off Fred's quick wit very well.

I haven't seen him on the show enough to comment, but he was more the type to sort of riff on a funny bit, and he couldn't exactly do that on WML.

R314 the tributes to Dorothy at the end of R300 are touching too.

Did Maureen O'Sullivan have a mid-Atlantic accent?

It was a refined-by-MGM Irish accent, r320.

Ah yes. I did wonder when they asked her if she was an American.

M. O'S.

That Maureen O'Sullivan Letterman interview is one of the funniest late night interviews I've ever watched. If you love MGM, Tarzan, Will Rogers and old broads, do yourself a favor and watch!

She was aged 75 on the Letterman.

No, 74.

On a syndicated episode of "To Tell the Truth" from 1974 that I saw this evening, the panelists had to guess which one of three guys was a Barbra Streisand and Bette Midler impersonator. You could practically see the "Fag!" thought balloon above Joe Garagiola's head as he was asking his questions.

To fool the panel the audience is asked not to applaud Tyrone Power. The beard helps.

He'd be dead in a few years.

Maybe they should have applauded.

He wasn't friggin' Tinkerbell, r330.

R331 That's what you think.

In May 1961, Lisa Lane was a contestant on the long-running CBS game show What’s My Line? Wearing a dark A-line dress and no jewelry, Lane walked onstage and wrote her name on a chalkboard in neat script. The show’s host, John Charles Daly, told the panel of celebrities in tuxedos and evening dresses—on this episode, actor Arlene Francis, Broadway writer Abe Burrows, humorist and publisher Bennett Cerf, and journalist Dorothy Kilgallen—that Lane “is self-employed, deals in a service.”

The panel had to figure out Lane’s occupation by asking yes-or-no questions. Cerf went first. “Miss Lane, do your very good looks and useful charm have any bearing on the service that you perform?” Lane said no. Cerf replied, “Ridiculous! Ridiculous!” The panelists determined that Lane’s job was related to sports. But then they asked whether she wore a costume or worked with animals. Finally, after 10 noes, Daly introduced Lane as the reigning U.S. women’s chess champion.

^Lisa Lane, starting at 3:00.

Because of Kilgallen's torrid affair with Jack Kennedy she was going to blow the lid off his assassination. They hated the cunt with a vengeance. Soupy Sales was a known hit man for the mob he recruited Arlene Francis who had experience in black ops she was a former OSS agent during the war but it was Manchurian Candidate brainwashed and mind controlled Steve Allen who actual inserted the cyanide suppository into Dorothy's rectum.

[quote] Do your very good looks and useful charm have any bearing on the service that you perform?

Love it.

Yes, R335, Jack Kennedy had an eye for pretty lasses.

^ Bennett Cerf with an axe in the conservatory.

Bennet said "youthful charm" not 'useful charm," a slightly more reasonable way of insulting the young woman chess champ.

That segment should be included in a time capsule of mid-century America.

^ Yes, she didn't even merit a single catcall, a rarity for a young female contestant of the day.

Lisa Lane has fat legs.

She talks like a Valley Girl

R340 she got one whistle after Daly said she was handsome in his goodbye.

I like the look on Bennett's face when Daly and the flypaper man are laughing at him. He is smiling but looks like he is thinking FUCK YOU.

I enjoyed reading the article at r333, thanks for posting it. She was clearly a far more tempestuous personality than her WML appearance would suggest. But I found it odd that the only photo of her with the article was from the late 50s, during her early champion days, nothing from later years.

r345....

Yikes! Looks like Lisa Lane became a severe victim of plastic surgery as she aged. How ironic.

I don't think so, r347.

R339 Saying a woman has very good looks and youthful charm is an insult, now?

No but the way Bennett and Abe Burrows leered at her is pretty awkward.

Few things demonstrate the difference in social and political mores between then and now than the delight and approval given to men (most of them married) to openly ogle and drool over women. Much to the audience's enthusiasm.

Bennett and his shark teeth give me the willies.

And yet today it’s considered okay and funny when women ogle and drool over men. Not really an improvement.

Are you in any branch of the armed services?

Are there two of you?

Barrie Chase.

Betty Hutton

Do you appear in nightclubs?

Why are posting Betty Hutton again? And again…

Betty Hutton’s appearance was 13 days before Fred Allen’s death.

Who would you say appeared the most beautiful on WML? I'd say it's between:

Ava Gardner

Elizabeth Taylor

Kim Novak

Sophia Loren

Natalie Wood

Hugh O'Brian

Betty's dress has a strange design.

Betty the year before...

Betty got a huge hand when she entered and signed in.

Wonder what the song was that she had on the radio that year (that was mentioned in the questioning)?

Hit the Road to Dreamland

the flip side

R366 Thanks! Surprised she had a hit with that old chestnut from the ‘40s. Originally sung in a movie (on a train) by Dick Powell, Mary Martin, and the Golden Gate Quartet

It was a *minor* hit, r368.

R361 I'd add Gina Lollobrigida to the list. Especially her 1967 appearance.

"Betty Hutton’s appearance was 13 days before Fred Allen’s death."

Are you suggesting a causal relationship?

R361 said, "Who would you say appeared the most beautiful on WML? I'd say it's between:"

For me, it's a crime you left off the lovely and vivacious Debbie Reynolds off your list! I never really thought much of her as a beauty in most of her films, but I found her absolutely captivation on What's My Line.

Arlene and Rita Gam as panelists both bring their purses.

Janet Leigh was fucking gorgeous. Her subtlety in the way she dressed really worked here. Very timeless.

What is going on with Julie Newmar's hair?

[quote]Looks like Lisa Lane became a severe victim of plastic surgery as she aged.

I always got Lisa Lane confused with Lois Lane and Lana Lang.

[quote]What is going on with Julie Newmar's hair?

Julie Newmar is 90 years old now. I wonder whether it's still going on.

The "very charismatic, handsome circus performer/trapeze artist" I referenced shows up at 3:01 of this clip.

is he the one who can't afford a haircut?

Hot!

[quote] Yes.

R369 Excuse me. I guess I needed to say I was surprised she had a MINOR hit with that old chestnut.

I have started watching a few episodes a day as little havens of relaxation. and fun There are so many of them that once I get through all of them I'll have forgotten what I've seen at the start and will just begin again. Like painting the Golden Gate Bridge.

I watched both of Betty Hutton's appearances last night, one from 1956 and one from 1958. Though clearly nervous, she was great player, very into it and funny. Hard to imagine her as the woman who had been so difficult she was essentially blackballed form films just a few years earlier.

[quote] The "very charismatic, handsome circus performer/trapeze artist" I referenced shows up at 3:01 of this clip.

Here, starting at 19:37, is trapeze artist Lee Stath's full episode. Because he was the last contestant, & time was short. the show dispensed with the then-walk-down. A pity.

Lee Stath's FB page.

Lee Stath's 2021 obit.

Lee Stath was a better looking Joe DiMaggio.

Joe Di is surprisingly eloquent.

Also, Arlene says something in that first Hutton episode about saving time for another contestant by eliminating the “walk bys” or whatever she says. Strange she made this staff-meeting-like commentlive on the air. But then I don't know enough about the show and maybe others can explain it.

[quote]I always got Lisa Lane confused with Lois Lane and Lana Lang.

Sorry to add to your confusion, r376...

I always confused them with Harold Lang.

r377...

R390 on the R357 clip Arlene suggests the audience can write in if they think the show should cut the walk back and forth so they can get in another contestant. Daly says that is a good idea and Arlene says she would like to have that happen.

^When the addresses for these mid-century shows are occasionally included in their YouTube showings, I’m tempted to write to a long-obsolete addresses.

R394 But do you think she just decided to say that or was it agreed-upon beforehand? And why should a panelist be the one to bring it up?

I once wrote for a free travel poster at an address that was maybe 25 years old, and they sent it to me.

R396 - I think Arlene said it in delayed reaction to Daly's scolding her for flirting with the tattoo artist.

I think Arlene just. stuck her nose into anything and everything that happened anywhere.

I assume Joe DiMaggio had already been divorced from MM by that appearance?

Awkward!

According to Wiki Marilyn filed for divorce in October,1954. Didn't it take a year for the divorce to be official?

This is probably an insanely obvious take but it just sort of occurred to me that the great success of WML was due in no small part to the panelists Dorothy, Bennett and Arlene coming from what Americans perceived as a particularly privileged and sophisticated world, guessing at occupations with which they would rarely come into direct contact in their rarefied world. So much of the humor was derived from whether they might partake of the contestants' services and/or products.

For me, that's why the show was never as interesting or fun in its syndication. The panelists were mostly grade B or C performers, no intellects, no sophisticates, no SNOBS, and even Arlene seemed to tone down her persona (and certainly her wardrobe) for more of a housewife kind of appeal.

Dorothy and Arlene were not exactly from privileged backgrounds, I'm sure they came in contact with many people of many occupations. Bennett may have been from a more upper crust-y world but overall I don't agree that Americans were seeing them as from some sort of rarified world, I think it was more that the show was just witty and didn't talk down to people, and people appreciate that.

Cheyenne Black Beaver Marine Jet Fighter Pilot, Cuban Roulette Table Runner, and Yul.

Personally I perceive Dorothy and Arlene as go-getters who didn't have much of a leg up but who pushed their way to whatever level of success they had. Hard workers. Bennett, too, really. even though he came from a more privileged childhood. Still, he was Jewish and probably wasn't welcome everywhere in his early days.

Yul kisses Dorothy's hand, and Arlene's, even though she is wearing gloves!

Wow that Peter Lind Hayes Indian joke is offensive.

Do we have to watch the whole episode??

PLH came from vaudeville so that's why his jokes are so corny.

Peter and Mary were married for almost 60 years.

Brandon DeWilde. Paul Newman's future boy crush.

I loathe PLH. Always did. Can't understand how he had a career.

A few recent shows featured bullfighters and much humor was derived from severed ears and one was lauded for the high number of bulls he had killed. Was there no pushback to the cruelty of the sport in those days?

[quote]Dorothy and Arlene were not exactly from privileged backgrounds, I'm sure they came in contact with many people of many occupations. Bennett may have been from a more upper crust-y world but overall I don't agree that Americans were seeing them as from some sort of rarified world, I think it was more that the show was just witty and didn't talk down to people, and people appreciate that.

I was around then and R402 is correct.

The show seems very formal and sophisticated now, but it was perceived that way too back then.

The panelists were dressed in tuxedos and evening gowns for gosh sakes. And speaking with ersatz mid-Atlantic accents.

Compare it to the other game shows of the 1950s to mid 1960s: Concentration, The Price is Right, Beat the Clock, Truth or Consequences, Password, Match Game. They were all loose and laid back with a more free wheeling style.

I've Got a secret and To Tell the Truth were a bit more formal but nothing like WML?

I remember when Dorothy Kilgallen died my father commenting: "Dorothy Kilgallen thought her shit didn't stink".

Shows like the Match Game and The Price as right could sail into the 1970s and adopt with the times...but who wants to see What's My Line? with colorful sets, sideburns and leisure suits.

In R411 what does Dorothy do to the handcuff maker when he does the walk by at the start?

Of course they were considered sophisticates! Hobnobbing with stars, going to Broadway opening nights, movie previews, manor houses in Mt. Kisco, trips to Europe and Asia. From my little Michigan home, these lives were aspirational wet dreams.

Dorothy does a wonderful reaction to when it is said the mystery item that was handcuffs was something below the waist and above the knees.

I never said that Dorothy, Arlene and Bennett came from or grew up in privileged backgrounds....but I still maintain that their attraction for most of America was a particular snob appeal. Audiences loved watching them getting a kind of comeuppance by mostly ordinary-looking contestants fooling them with occupations that were from an entirely different world, sometimes a middle and working class world and sometimes a very exotic world, that the ritzy panelists did not inhabit.

[quote]the ritzy panelists

"Ritzy"...a word we don't hear anymore... would have been the exact word used in the 1950s and 60s to describe them.

or highfalutin

snooty

R416 You people act like everyone watching the show knew or cared that Bennett Cerf lived in Mount Kisco in a manor house.

Anyway, okay, if you insist people thought Dorothy Kilgallen (a gossip columnist) and Arlene Francis (a second-rate actress whose main fame was as a game show panelist) were the height of sophistication and glamour, but I doubt some people watching the show (like my parents) thought that. My dad's own opinion of show business was that it was "tawdry" so I doubt he'd be impressed. Doesn't mean he wouldn't enjoy it.

They were sophisticates.

R422 Whether your parents got it or not...that was "What My Line's?" brand.

Arlene was a very good actress. A character actress, not a movie star, but perfectly good. She held her own quite well opposite James Cagney in One, Two, Three.

Audiences loved watching them getting a kind of comeuppance

I think this is a stretch R418. Seems to me it hard to guess anyone's profession in that format and they had to go by instincts.

[quote]I remember when Dorothy Kilgallen died my father commenting: "Dorothy Kilgallen thought her shit didn't stink".

How charming.

But r427, if I were walking down Fifth Avenue with this in my hand, would people laugh?

Would your product improve my chin?

*What* chin?

Oh lord. Look at Dorothy's wig here. It's like she didn't even bother to finish putting it on. Wow.

What happened there? She borrowed a leftover Arlene wig at the last second?

Bennett makes a not too subtle reference to her wig and she laughs.

She must have woken up late after a pill/booze bender and didn't have time to do her hair. Looks like it's two sizes too small for her and it belongs to the prop department.

Handsome charm school leader, curvaceous but ugly anesthetist, and Fred MacMurray.

[quote]Handsome charm school leader, curvaceous but ugly anesthetist, and Fred MacMurray.

Sounds like Disney movie circa 1963.

Sounds like one of Arlene's parties.

[quote]Oh lord. Look at Dorothy's wig here. It's like she didn't even bother to finish putting it on. Wow.

Good lord. I was expecting the little brown wiglet that used to sit on top of her head, not some drag queen's cast-off Marilyn wig.

[quote]Sounds like one of Arlene's parties.

Not without some Vat 69!.

^ that ad pretty much represents the image presented by the regular panelists to the rest of America.

…Upper-middle, class, not too high-brow, Manattanites.

Manhattanites*

*

R440 Are you joking?

As if everyone has the likes of Herbert Swope, Beatrice Lillie, Sydney Chaplin, Donald Brooks, Barbara Cook and Larry Kert over for a little get-together dressed in tuxedos, evening gowns and white gloves.

Just a bunch of regular Joes.

That’s the opposite of what I wrote—we’re out of time and so I’m going to flip all the cards. You guessed wrong, but thanks for playing.

What? No one in the hair and makeup department had a wig cap???

*

Vat 69 certainly attracted a lot of big names for its print ads, despite having a name that suggested it was distilled in somebody's cellar.

They didn’t drink the shit—they just sold it to the poor folks out there, in flyoverstan.

To excuse Dorothy, there was just a brief moment around 1960 when certain sophisticated women began wearing wigs as a fashion statement. I believe it grew out of the craze for wildly over-teased bouffant hairdos and enabled women with challenging follicles to present a modern look without destroying the little hair they had.

These wigs were never meant to be taken for their real hair. As a tiny gayling I can remember the fad and my mom having sich a wig even though she wasn't exactly sophisticated.

I imagine Dorothy thought, well, if I'm going to wear one of these new fangled wigs I may as well try a new color.

E. G. Marshall. He had a hit record with James Joyce's Ulysses??

Were you in Barbra Streisand's dressing room in the past week?

The wig did not fit! You could see her real hair poking out of both sides, behind her ears. I think she was hiding in plain site from the mob or the CIA. ;)

R402, I think you’ve got it almost exactly backward. Part of the appeal of WML lies in the fact that these urbane sophisticates have extensive first-hand familiarity with the pastimes and habits of ordinary Americans. Consider both John’s and Bennet’s close familiarity with sports of all kinds, and all four panelists at least passing knowledge of what was going on in baseball in particular. They go to the movies. They watch TV. Arlene jokes about Martin’s habit of betting on the horses. Even things they probably don’t do, like bowl, they are clearly quite familiar with. It’s delightful to see people at such a relatively high position in society who are comfortable with and not in the least contemptuous of the things ordinary Americans do. WML humanizes a class of people most Americans would never meet in real life and might have been somewhat in awe of and intimidated by.

That’s what it seems like to me, anyway. And it stands in sad and bitter contrast to today, when the gap between the chattering classes and what passes for an American elite and the ordinary people of the country has never been wider.

Dottie's wig looked like something my grandmother wore when swimming.

R414, even if your father really said that - which I am dubious about - you must realize that it was unusual for a man with even passably decent manners to use a word like "shit" in front of a child or teenager in 1965.

If by chance you were an adult with such a casual relationship with your father that you each used then-taboo words in front of each other, well ... congratulations on still being able to type.

R452 Everyone went to the movies then. They knew what was happening to the extent it happened in NY. They didn’t care about tv other than to the extent it may have overlapped with Broadway performers. You mischaracterized the earlier argument in your counter argument.

R452, in some of the early years of the program Dorothy and Bennett, at least, would be stumped when a MG was narrowed down as an actor appearing on a TV series, wailing "But I don't watch much TV!". Of course, that changed by the end of the decade.

As for attending films, all 3 panelists and JCD often mentioned they'd seen a MG's film either at its premiere or before it even opened (I assumed that meant an industry preview for press and friends).

And they all had servants who would do the grocery shopping and all sorts of daily/weekly errands dealing with the hoi polloi. They lived in a very rarefied world with delivery services for most of their needs. Not exactly like the rest of us.

[quote]even if your father really said that - which I am dubious about - you must realize that it was unusual for a man with even passably decent manners to use a word like "shit" in front of a child or teenager in 1965.

The story is real, and you're quite stupid and obviously know nothing about the era.

R 456 And there is an episode where Arlene says to Dorothy something about Dorothy never having been in a supermarket.

Just watched a 1957 episode in which TV star Gale Storm was the MG and the panel had NO idea who to guess once they established she was a TV star but not Dinah Shore or Patti Page. The star of My Little Margie and Oh, Susannah! stumped them and it was rather embarrassing.

There was also a rather dishy male model from London and a cute Englishman named Robert Monkhouse on the panel who flirted relentlessly with the male model and the female wrestler who preceded him.

Sorry not to link, Rushing off to a hot date!

The Gale Storm

The male model had it right when he said Monkhouse looked like Liberace.

Gale turned into a drag queen.

I had a huge crush on Gale Storm as a little kid watching her in interminable morning reruns of her 2 sitcoms. Love that short interview with her at r462 (yes, the eyeglasses were unfortunate). She always seemed like a truly good person.

Gale ain't gonna worry.

TV performers of the 1950s weren't high members of society and they weren't revered like movie stars. TV was something that came into your home, sponsored by Ex-Lax and Stopette deoderant. Most of the stars who were mystery guests on WML were far, far more famous and beloved than the WML panel.

She was a fomer panelist.

She was a drinker and used to do commercials for a chain of "recovery centers" called Raleigh Hills, which was sold to some nursing home chain after being found to skirt Medicaid laws and health standards. She was, of course, a Republican.

Not surprisingly, she appeared on both "Love Boat" and "Murder, She Wrote" as well as Burke's Law, where Aaron Spelling perfected the art of having well known people past their prime do a days work (probably for scale) and make the show "star studded".

She in R467 refers to Gale Storm. She sang (which I don't remember). She also made movies mostly for poverty row studios like Monogram.

So what made her "of course" a Republican? Drinking, doing ads for recovery centers, or the fact that the recovery centers skirted laws?

Large-scale healthcare fraud is a Republican tradition.

Was Gale Storm someone perpetrating large scale healthcare fraud or was she just unknowingly doing commercials for a crooked enterprise?

[quote]Was Gale Storm someone perpetrating large scale healthcare fraud or was she just unknowingly doing commercials for a crooked enterprise?

You remind me of the way Ralph Bellamy gave contestants the third degree on "To Tell the Truth."

Thank you, he was excellent as FDR.

Are you sure you’re not confusing Ralph Bellamy with Don Ameche, R473?

Both Ralph and Don took TTTT way to seriously. 🤔

Hmmm. I see Ralph Bellamy as a rather indifferent interlocutor. Don Ameche, on the other hand, would go in for the kill.

R472 here. I, in fact, meant Don Ameche, not Ralph Bellamy. It was Ameche who seemed to think he was playing Perry Mason, although Ralph Bellamy occasionally went in that direction, as R475 noted.

Handsome, charismatic trapeze artist Lee Stath was married, briefly, in the '40s, to actress Lieux Dressler ("Alice Grant" on General Hospital), with whom they had two children.

^ he, not they

The panelists were also flumoxxed by anyone in a Western series. There was a glut of cowboy shows at one time and it was clear they watched none of them.

R470: Thank you for pointing out what should have been obvious to R469. Of course, someone who shills for a questionable "recovery" chain would be a Republican. She was doing it when all that was known.

She wrote an interesting autobiography. After she got sober and the kids moved away from home, she and her husband put their house up for sale.

When they moved, the movers found all kinds of whiskey bottles where she had hidden them when she was drunk and had forgotten where they were.

Gale on DOT records!

Don't know if anyone watched the interview she did with Gary Collins in the late 1980s at r462, but Gale comes right out at the beginning and refers to herself as an alcoholic (though clearly in long-time recovery).

I'm really surprised to see she was a WML panelist. When she appeared as a MG 2 years later they all behaved like they never heard of her.

She was only popular with the populace. And Gale's show was on Saturday night when those boozers were out partying......

R474 Did you mean to direct your question to R472? Otherwise, Don Ameche never played FDR, as far as I know. Alexander Graham Bell, yes.

R481 Sorry, I guess I'm not as elderly as you so I didn't know anything about it. And sorry I stooped to asking a question.

I liked it on TTTT when an even slightly military topic came up and Ralph, Don, or someone else who had been in the military was on the panel. It wasn't that long since the end of WWII and a lot of them had served. So there questions were so pin point and it would be funny. "What does three bells rung on the starboard side of the ship mean?" Shit like that.

Ann Miller. I think her laugh would have had me guess her right.

Did she still have a nose?

They did know of Richard Boone's Western show, because he played Lincoln to Martin Gable's Stephen Douglas in a Broadway play. They spoke of it as a big hit. It wasn't.

Ann Miller is so subdued there.

She certainly is, R491. Not a hint of jazz hands!

Perhaps she'd just found out that Dolores Gray and June Allyson would be performing all of the musical numbers in THE OPPOSITE SEX.

At the Bijou...

Dolores only got to sing over the titles.

At R488 Ann seems to have a bit of the coke bloat.

Ann Miller seemed to me like a star whose talent wasn't really appreciated by the general public (and the WML panel) when she was making those MGM musicals. But she became much bigger in retrospect when a few of her movies were revived in art houses and college campuses and tap dancing clips were part of the That's Entertainment series. And, of course, as a part of the camp nostalgia of the early 70s.

They still gave the Tony to Patti over Ann for Sugar Babies.

There were a couple of other songs and dances in The Opposite Sex not performed by Allyson. But not by Dolores Gray or Ann Miller, either. I think one had Joan Collins in it and one was sung by Jeff Richards (dubbed). The movie was originally supposed to star Grace Kelly, who retired before it was made.

Gale Storm wasn't really part of the panelists' world and easily forgotten. Her theater experience came later and was more Kenley Players than Broadway.

Her films probably never played at Radio City Music Hall (more likely neighborhood theaters in the outer boroughs) and her tv shows weren't iconic or megahits.

R500 My Little Margie and The Gale Storm Show ran pretty much without a break for almost a decade. Ask anyone who watched TV in my parents' generation and they knew who she was. Who was she supposed to have been "easily forgotten" by? She was a TV pioneer, a star in the earliest decade of TV. Good enough.

Faye Emerson was a big gal. Gordon MacRae not so big but hot.

Faye Emerson was, briefly, FDR’s daughter-in-law.

Better Faye than Hope.

Faye was later married to Skitch Henderson.

She looks like Frances Farmer.

The Faye Emerson Show

Frances Farmer on a very special episode of This is Your Life.

Gordon McRae's days as a leading man in movies were already behind him by the time that episode aired. After being very busy in the '50s doing two big R&H adaptations and The Best Things In Life Are Free (1956), he never starred in a movie again (though appeared in a couple much later).

Early in his movie career, Gordon MacRae was often paired with Doris Day.

To be fair to Gordon, movie musicals as a studio genre were pretty much dead by 1958. There was nothing for him in South Pacific or Gigi. Or The King and I.

Ann Miller's nose looks so perfect in her WML clip. WTF happened? Please tell me she didn't get it bobbed after that. She actually looks quite attractive and young there.

And I have to point out that in trying to determine what TV variety show Ann might have recently guested on, Dorothy once again proudly spouts: "I don't watch much TV."

R511 TV tended to diminish movie musical popularity, since a lot of the stars were on TV, and TV depended on music and variety shows in the earlier years. Fred Astaire, Gene Kelly, Judy Garland all had musical specials that drew high ratings. Movie musicals continued - like The Unsinkable Molly Brown (1964) - Elvis movies, Connie Francis movies - Disney made some musicals into the '60s. I wasn't wasn't making a comment about Gordon, just expressing surprise that he went from starring in big movies to no movie career in a flash.

R480, they weren’t alone. Westerns in the late ‘50s were like reality shows ca. 2005. Everybody thought there were too many of them except the public, who kept watching (for a while).

R490, here is Richard Boone’s appearance on WML in early 1959. He played Paladin, the lead character on one of the most popular and most remembered series, [italic]Have Gun - Will Travel[/italic]. And yet, nobody, including Boone himself, wanted to talk about the series, which ended up #3 for the season. Oh, no. They wanted to talk about that damn play. Granted, Arlene’s husband was in it, so some attention was inevitable, but the way they all – even Boone himself, the star of the show – dismiss one of the most popular TV series of its time is pretty revealing of a certain kind of intellectual snobbery that characterized postwar America.

Regarding Richard Boone: He wasn’t handsome, but he had a virile presence that was quite sexy. I should look for HGWT on Youtube. The list of guest stars is impressive.

[quote]he had a virile presence that was quite sexy

r514 - Maureen O'Hara wrote that he and Peter Lawford were caught in the raid of a male bordello when they were filming Kangaroo in Australia.

They couldn't have had Frances Farmer on the show considering she stated her occupation was cocksucker.

[quote]To be fair to Gordon, movie musicals as a studio genre were pretty much dead by 1958. There was nothing for him in South Pacific or Gigi. Or The King and I.

The movie version of "Carousel" isn't a completely successful adaptation, but Gordon MacRae sings the score beautifully, as he did in the movie of "Oklahoma!"

By the time of Carousel Gordon was too pudgy to play Billy Bigelow. But he was a last minute replacement for Sinatra who walked off the picture after the first day of filming, so it's possible, had he been given a few months warning, Gordy could have slimmed down.

I wonder why they didn't approach Howard Keel for Billy? He kept his looks.

I don't see Keel as Billy.

yes Gordon is looking heavy on the WML episode.

Do you occasionally lift your voice in song?

Here he is in 1973.

Small conference John?

I got a weenie!

Just how did the weenie thing start? I never heard of it before or since WML.

Could I avail myself of your services?

No call for a conference was made.

Is it “on my left” or “to my left”?

I remember when I was a kid people referring to Richard Boone as Uncle Pimples. Because he had big pockmarks on his face.

At R514 before Richard Boone the Kansas Nightwatch lady in her Sunday best outfit.

Ah the ladies stood for her.

Either a miracle of lighting or make-up but Richard Boone's pockmarks are not so evident here.

Does your service bring people pleasure?

Have Gun, Will Travel, like Maverick, were considered "adult" westerns. They weren't your usual shoot'em up oaters with wagon trains and Indian savages but actually had some literate scripts and real plotting. Maverick often had an ironic comic tone, expertly played by James Garner, the rare TV star to go directly into a major film career from his TV exposure. Whereas HGWT was deadly serious and rather morose.

Richard Boone played Paladin as a reluctant anti-hero, older and wiser than the other Western leads and dressed all in black, a novelty for the good guy. I'm surprised the series wasn't turned into a feature film in the 1990s like Maverick.

[quote]Whereas HGWT was deadly serious and rather morose.

There were some light episodes, r534. And

^ And his "civilian" attire was somewhat dandified.

The third WML thread is being hijacked by old TV westerns. I'm pretty sure we won't be needing a Part 4.

....

These animals you work with; are they of the four-legged variety?

Would this product be used by ordinary people?

Dorothy may well have been a big snob but she never fails to give the contestant a highly appreciative and ingratiating smile when she shakes their hand on their way out.

Shit! Manners.

Dorothy, Arlene and Bennett all had great smiles.

Dorothy Kilgallen: Shit! Manners.

Hal Block: Shit manners!

Not a good angle, with Ernest Hemingway.

Hugh O'Brian as he seems to be a DL fave.

SO DREAMY ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^!!!!!!!!

You're forgetting my charming head tilt that accompanies each handshake, R541. It's one of the many little things I do that make people love me.

Poor Hugh. He had to be questioned by that Phyllis creature.

She had to do, r548.

Hugh seems like a nice man but a little dull.

I'd have happily taken a share of Hugh's dullness any day. Or night.

squat

compressed

Dorothy's handshake and smile always seem to suggest, "Isn't it delightful you have a chance to meet me?"

Is he wearing a wig in the R45?

I mean R545

He looks to be a tall one. He is a former Marine and enjoyed meeting the guys over in Vietnam.

On June 25, 2006, at age 81, O'Brian married his girlfriend of 18 years, Virginia Barber (born circa 1952); it was his first and only marriage...The couple spent their honeymoon studying philosophy at Oxford University. O'Brian stated that he believed, "an active mind is as important as an active body."

panelist

R554, eh, I don't see that. Dorothy is nice to all the contestants, but so are the other regulars. They're all warm and friendly with contestants. I don't think Dorothy is doing anything unusual; she's just being polite and gracious, as John, Bennett and Arlene are. They have good manners.

I particularly like it when a contestant lingers for an extra moment to exchange a few words with a panelist. What are they saying? Sometimes, it appears the panelist (usually outgoing Arlene) has asked them something.

Arlene always seems to flirt with the men if they are halfway attractive, especially if her husband is not on the panel. Considering he is a fug, its no surprise.

Maybe he was well hung. Arlene seems the type who appreciates a large penis.

What is that hand gesture Hugh does to the audience? It's like a Sinatra-ish cool handgun acknowledgment.

These 3 threads have got me watching lots of WML clips again and I'm constantly made aware of how often and with very little provocation Bennett felt compelled to make a remark about a female contestant's looks. I'm sure he always meant to be flattering but it now comes across as horribly sexist, unfunny and quite tiresome. And he always called them girls.

r563, I think Hugh was simply referencing Wyatt Earp, the character he played in the Western that made him a big TV star. He also mentioned bringing his "gun" when JCD welcomed him on the panel.

His smile on the 1961 show is something.

[quote] Bennett felt compelled to make a remark about a female contestant's looks. I'm sure he always meant to be flattering but it now comes across as horribly sexist, unfunny and quite tiresome. And he always called them girls.

Routinely calling women "girls" would continue beyond Cerf's lifetime. I listen to Casey Kasem's Top 40 '70s broadcasts on SiriusXM & he referred to all the female singers as girls.

I watched Hugh on 3 different episodes tonight and IMHO he only got sexier with each one.

Bennett hoped in vain that Marilyn would show up as a MG.

Yes, for most of 1953 and 1954 Bennett would guess MM's name. He did a very interesting and fun article for Esquire Magazine about meeting her. I imagine it's still out there online somewhere.

1953 July, Esquire, Volume 40, Number 1, The ‘Altogether’ Girl by Bennett Cerf

[quote] Bennett hoped in vain that Marilyn would show up as a MG.

21st century WML devotees wish she had, too.

But I showed up.

I'm wicked because I don't want to do that show.

Young Liza was a mystery guest two years before Mama.

[quote]These 3 threads have got me watching lots of WML clips again and I'm constantly made aware of how often and with very little provocation Bennett felt compelled to make a remark about a female contestant's looks.

Even John Charles Daly gushes over attractive women and makes comments that now sound inappropriate.

Are we actually going to need a Part 4? This one will max out soon. Or would a Part 4 be what the French call de trop?

Shit, manners.

And the thing is, many of those women really weren't even that pretty.

If we happen to go to 4 threads, I say why not?! These are the most consistently civilized, knowledgeable and funny DL threads in a long time.

Oddly enough, throwing out bits of flattery to women was considered polite in those days, R579. Yes, it was sexist and inappropriate by our standards, but back then complimenting a woman -especially an average or matronly-looking woman -was good manners. Because that's what women were all about: their appearance and clothes. What else about them could possibly be important?

Merry Christmas.

^ Hugh as the MG.

Arlene and Dorothy wear tin foil dresses.

Jesus H. 1961 R582 Hugh is so good looking and sexy.

Hugh in 1966.

He's just back from Vietnam again and touched by the boys there.

I love Arlene in gloves.

They did like her.

Before Gloria Steinem told us it was bad, we used to be able to appreciate women’s looks. Can’t call them girls. Can’t call them ladies, either. Kind of tiresome.

R589, I agree some of the more stiff-necked reactions are tiresome, oversensitive and humorless.

On the other hand, sometimes it went too far. Some of the more accomplished female contestants were treated in an unintentionally patronizing way just because they were also pretty.

R572, what an amazing episode that would have been. They would have had to urge and plead with the audience to be calm, or the pandemonium would have been an immediate tipoff that either Marilyn or Elvis had walked on stage.

I wonder how well she could have disguised her voice? MM could be quite playful when she wanted to be. I can imagine her doing a deep, guttural voice, but she would really have to laugh silently because that sweet giggle would have been a dead giveaway.

Poor Bennett would probably have fainted right out of his chair when he realized who was there.

The motorcycle saleswoman in R585 is pretty but hardly a glamorpuss so why does she get so many catcalls?

Marilyn would never have got there on time. She was notorious for being late.

Part 4 of this thread will clearly be .and may be found here.

^^ . . . will clearly be needed . . . ^^

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