You all misunderstand borderline personality.

Believe it or not, people with this affliction, at their very core, are the inverse of the narcissist. People with BPD start out 'too sensitive', too empathetic. People with borderline personality disorder empathize to the point of pain. When the highly sensitive person grows up in a very non-validating and/or abusive environment, with a history of trauma, BPD can manifest. In order for borderline personality to develop, an invalidating environment with and a highly sensitive person MUST BE present. What is going on in a Borderline Personality Disorder sufferer's mind and how they are acting can be two entirely different things. To the sufferer, BPD is about deep feelings, feelings often too difficult to express, feelings that are something along the lines of this : If others really get to know me, they will find me rejectable and will not be able to love me; and they will leave me; I need to have complete control of my feelings otherwise things go completely wrong; I have to adapt my needs to other people's wishes, otherwise they will leave me or attack me; I am an evil person and I need to be punished for it; Other people are evil and abuse you; If someone fails to keep a promise, that person can no longer be trusted; If I trust someone, I run a great risk of getting hurt or disappointed; If you comply with someone's request, you run the risk of losing yourself; If you refuse someone's request, you run the risk of losing that person; I will always be alone; I can't manage by myself, I need someone I can fall back on; There is no one who really cares about me, who will be available to help me, and whom I can fall back on; I don't really know what I want; I will never get what I want; I'm powerless and vulnerable and I can't protect myself;. I have no control of myself; I can't discipline myself; My feelings and opinions are unfounded; Other people are not willing or helpful. To the family members, BPD behavior is often very frustrating can feel unfair and punitive - something like this: You have been viewed as overly good and then overly bad; You have been the focus of unprovoked anger or hurtful actions, alternating with periods when the family member acts perfectly normal and very loving; Things that you have said or done have been twisted and used against you; You are accused of things you never did or said? You often find yourself defending and justifying your intentions; You find yourself concealing what you think or feel because you are not heard; You feel manipulated, controlled, and sometimes lied to.

• Can anyone see this video? I get the message that my country has blocked this video. I live in the USA.

  http://www.bpdfamily.com/bpdresources/nk_a102.htm

• So in other words, BPD is all about me, me, me.

  Narcissism much?

• they''re NUTS

• Those statements all sound pretty true to me, R1.

• Yes, while it''s true both are consumed with self, narcissists cannot/will not empathize. People with BPD CAN and DO empathize...too much, sometimes.\ \ That''s a HUGE difference. Even though people with BPD sometimes act evil, they are not evil. More than likely, they''re beautiful people on the inside. Most have giant hearts and can''t stand to see things suffer; however, they are almost impossible to live with because their emotions are so intense and out of control that they can somtimes become blind to the suffering they''re inflicting on loved ones.. \ \ Although, unlike narcissists, I think people with BPD, with enough distance, can understand the effect they''re having on others.\ \ Princess Di had BPD.

• Back when I took Psych, BPD wasn''t on the list. They added it when business fell off.

• I still don''t get why it is called "borderline personality"%0D\ %0D\ I understand the characteristics. I just don''t get why it was given that particular name.

• R7, perhaps it has something to do with the person seeming to change their personality to go along with others? As if they don''t really have their own personality, but just mimic/reflect what they think others want to see?

• Finally, someone on DL who really does understand BPD!\ \ Thank you, OP.\ \ Reading that description (of my feelings and behaviours) is both empowering and very very sad.

• Oh for fuck''s sake. So you''ve been diagnosed with BPD, OP, and because it''s almost impossible to deal with, your therapist has told you how "many" BPs are "beautiful people on the inside." And "feel toooooo much." And "empathize tooooooo much." Well, your therapist is throwing out the attributes of about the 1% of contained and high functioning BPs with the hope that you will keep your anxiety contained and not become a Glenn Close on her when she has to reschedule an important.\ \ So, keep feeling special and too sensitive and pay no mind when most people give you a wide berth. Whatever gets you through the day.

• [quote]Believe it or not, people with this affliction, at their very core, are the inverse of the narcissist.\ \ Bullshit. A former BPD friend was a complete narcissist. Sure, there''s some empathy there, but like R2 said "BPD is all about me, me, me" and that''s how my former BPD friend was. \ \ I understand BPD all too well, thank you very much.

• That hit home, OP.

• R7 It''s borderline ''personality disorder'' like real-close-to-being personality disorder. The latter you do NOT want to catch.

• "Even though people with BPD sometimes act evil, they are not evil. More than likely, they''re beautiful people on the inside. Most have giant hearts and can''t stand to see things suffer; "%0D\ %0D\ Oh bosh! Lots of people with BPD spend their entire lives causing suffering in others, and are indifferent to the pain they cause. All they really care about are their own fears and feelings, they are as incapable of putting another person first as a narcissist.%0D\ %0D\ And who the hell keeps saying that Princess Di had BPD? Proof, please.

• [quote]There is no one who really cares about me, who will be available to help me, and whom I can fall back on;%0D\ %0D\ This one resonates, but almost nothing else in that list does.%0D\ %0D\ I guess that means I''m not BPD... I''m just pathetic.%0D

• They sound like typical sociopaths.

• R10/11 = NPD

• Uh, we really don''t care. We have our own lives, which you care nothing about. Get back to the borderline.

• You know what''s funny? The over-the-top ANGRY people who respond to threads like these. It''s so obvious that these people have the worst cases ever.

• I was the one posting on the narcissist thrad saying that I thought my ex has BPD, not narcissism. This thread has confirmed it, and I have sympathy for those with BOD, but it doesn''t make the headfuckery any easier.\ \ Ultimately they need to grow up and get therapy. There have been some good examples recently of therapy being useful for borderline personality disorder.

• So, OP, clearly the answer is: expose BPD sufferers on the side of a hill to die soon after birth.\ \ Or, if they somehow made it to adolescence or beyond: shun them entirely.

  thanks for the great advice!

• I think most of those symptoms can be summed up in one word: "woman"

• One of the best depictions I have ever seen of BPD was the character Christina Ricci plays in PROZAC NATION. The movie went straight to video because the central character is so monstrous to the people around her that its almost intolerable to sit all the way through it: however, her behavior is very much like a person who has BPD.\ \ But this "they may be beautiful on the outside and so shouldn''t be blamed for acting in a way that is perceived as evil" argument really bothers me. The argument that "they can''t help it" would then have to extend to sociopaths then too: once could always say they can''t help being sociopaths, after all. I agree that BPD sufferers often are tremendously hurt by what they do to other people and feel they can''t help it, but if they''re manipulating, and lying to, people (or behaving cruelly to them), then they absolutely have to take the consequences, just as a sociopath would.

• [quote]I still don''t get why it is called "borderline personality"\ \ \ It got this moniker when it was thought it might be something on the fringes of schizophrenia, on the borderline between neurosis (emotional distress) and psychosis (break with reality, hallucination, delusion).

• A good book for insight into the first person experience of this disorder at link.

  http://www.amazon.com/Get-Me-Out-Here-ebook/dp/B002JPUS7E

• If you think the fibromyalgia support boards have some astounding true tales, ("I''m so lucky, my husband knows he can have no physical contact with me whatsoever, and that sometimes even glancing at me from across the living room causes my skin tremendous pain"), you should see the ones for BPDs. ("I''m just so grateful that my husband loves me in spite of my episodes of screaming and throwing things and having the police come to throw him out of the house. He understands that these episodes need to be ridden out and that soon we will have three minutes of calm. I can sometimes sense his getting cross with me and he knows he really can''t do that or I may perceive him as the source of all evil. He knows he has to check that or it will make me punch him. Overall, he has accommodated my disability and I have a great life.")

• [quote]I have to adapt my needs to other people''s wishes, otherwise they will leave me or attack me;\ \ I''ve never thought of BPDs as being particularly concerned about the wishes of other people. Quite the contrary.

• BPDs are concerned with other people''s feelings, in a way. They can''t really mindfuck with you until they''ve won your trust, and they win the trust by appearing to be whatever you want a friend or lover to be. %0D\ %0D\ They read your feelings, although it''s only to further their own ends.

• My BPD friend was, in some ways, one of the best friends I'd ever had. No one was as kind or supportive. She was that person I could count on for sympathy or advice or a kick in the butt as needed. And the funniest person I'd ever met; she could call me at work and within sixty seconds have me literally out of my chair and on the floor, gasping for air from laughing so hard. But then I'd do something that set her off, usually inadvertently, and I'd get a three-page letter telling me I'm the worst person in the world and she never wanted to speak to me again. And later, after a period of months or years, she'd call me up and pick up where we left off, like nothing ever happened. It wasn't just me; I remember her spending weeks ranting about a niece like she was Hitler and Jeffrey Dahmer rolled into one, and then one day she said her niece was the person in her family she loved the most. Reminding her of her Hitler and Jeffrey Dahmer comments returned the most sincere quizzical look, as if she was hearing that opinion for the very first time. After our last reconciliation, I told her that I couldn't go through another cycle because it hurt too much, and the next goodbye would be forever. And when it happened, I stuck to my guns. Fast forward ten years. I'm chatting with a co-worker who mentions she used to work where my ex-friend worked. The co-worker knew her and I mentioned we used to be close but had a falling out, and I sometimes thought about calling her up. The co-worker looked at the floor, and then to me and said softly, "You know she died, right?" Ugh. But at least I can hop on DL and say with authority, "I had a friend with BPD, and she died."

• Can someone explain what the difference is between someone who is BPD and someone who has abandonment issues? My bf has a lot of the symptoms in OP''s post, but I think his main issues revolve around past abandonmnets.

• r30, that''s like saying, "Can someone explain to me the difference between someone who has lung cancer and someone who has a persistent cough?"

• The clumsiness and imprecision of the diagnostic umbrella - not helped necessarily by the fracturing of the thing along a variety of pseudo-objective categories - reflect the continued lack of understanding of etiology. We continue to diagnose psychiatric disorders by symptoms rather than by underlying cause(s). Physical medicine is in many cases farther long - at least we don't say people died of the flux; we say they died of an e coli infection. Granted that psychiatric disorders are not all going to be found to issue from genetic or environmental proclivities, and the actions of social environment always will affect outcomes just as much as they do for physical disorders. But until the roots are better identified, we're going to be left with the same kind of symptom-driven, falsely objectified claptrap that produced the borderline personality disorder fiascos (as I see the results) and those for other personality disorders. Don't yammer at me about treatment successes. Sitting down with anyone open to it and talking and working through things using REBT or other behavior-modification, reflective-based therapies will work - for those for whom they're going to work. And as far as the DSM refinements "based on current research," I've been through the last two and it's like watching sausage being made by vegans with a hankering for steak. I KNOW members of the BPD committee were diagnosable in the area themselves - how does that give me confidence in their twaddle?

  Sorry for not calling any other posters names here. I forgot.

• Psychobabble psychobabble psychobabble psychobabble psychobabble psychobabble

• OP, thank you.%0D\ %0D\ R29 - sorry about your friend.

  Wow

• Grew up with one--she destroyed my family. Work with them--they''re poisonous and fuck up the psych units with their manipulative and splitting behaviors. Whatever lets you sleep better at night, OP, but keep the fuck out of my hospital.

• Some of those sentences posted by OP are so universal, so broad, they according to that list, we would ALL be walking around with it. We all have feelings and thoughts like those at some time or other. I agree with the poster upthread that it''s a new "diagnosis" designed to cover a wide area when a more specific diagnosis isn''t applicable.

• [quote]The co-worker looked at the floor, and then to me and said softly, "You know she died, right?"\ \ C''mon, finish the story. How did she die?

• [quote]. But at least I can hop on DL and say with authority, "I had a friend with BPD, and she died."\ \ You just made my day, r29.

  Bengali in Platforms

• This crap is like horoscopes. You can always ''make'' it fit.

• OP? Can you tell me why I should give a fuck?\ \ \ My solution: stay away from nutcases with personality disorders. They''re not happy until they take you down with them.

• I honestly don''t know how she died, R37. We had our last conversation in December 2000, and she died in 2005. I didn''t find out until 2009. My co-worker only knew that she had been in and out of the hospital for a number of months before she died. I''ve fallen out of touch with any mutual friends, and I didn''t feel right calling her family four years later and asking for the gory details.\ \ She was very obese and had a litany of health problems, so it''s not a shock that she died so young. But it''s especially sad knowing that she had an odd fixation on retirement -- obsessed with getting vested for pensions and the 401(k) and when she could start drawing Social Security, because if she could just hang in there for 25 more years, then no more going to work and life would start getting good. I always used to tell her that it wouldn''t be so horrible to try to be happy today as well. I should write fortune cookies, huh?\ \ Sorry if I''m being bloggy.

  R29

• nah... I think I got it down pat...

• One time, I blamed this guy for taking me to an Indian restaurant for dinner where I got food poisoning. I puked for two days straight and lived off of popsicles for another week because my stomach was still so fucked up. I had it in my head that he did something to my food while I was in the bathroom. And later I felt bad about blaming him for a kitchen problem. But then it turned out he was a total psycho and probably did intentionally poison my food, he did much worse things to me and others. Does this make me borderline or him a psychopath?

• are boderlines cared all the time

• I don't know if this was answered (or correctly as I read some very incorrect statements): BPD is named such because originally ( back in the first half of the 20th century ) because suffers' perception of reality was so queued, so twisted that they were on the borderline of a psychotic break from reality. Looking at any borderline and you can clearly see how that relates. The entire push/pull they go to avoid abandonment depression - which is what drives them to cling with a vice grip to someone then succumb to the fear that they person will leave/reject them inevitably so they do it first to protect themselves and on and on. THAT is the key. Not empathy. They neither have real empathy or would know what to make of it of they did. They perseverate on being abandoned. The fear consumes them and that is all the care about. Borderline's are the most difficult to treat and are dreaded because they manipulative - but in a different way than the anti-social or the narcissist. THE classic example is Glen Close in Fatal Attraction. Oh yeah - it is predominant in females as anti-social is in males. The only thing worse to treat or have to deal with than a female borderline is a male borderline.

• Therefore, gays are narcissists and not borderlines.

• One of the most intriguing people I've ever met was diagnosed as borderline. His capability for excessive empathy was definitely supported by his codependent relationships with women (he was straight). He also bullied his way to the top of a large corporation, making himself obscenely rich. He seemed to be constantly struggling with his desires to be treating people really well and then randomly feeling the need to treat them like total shit. Still not sure if he had a conscience..

  Anonymous

• R47, so was he in genuine emotional turmoil, or just occasionally an evil asshole?

• No, borderlines don't respect boundaries. That's where the name came from. Duh. It had nothing to do with "excessive empathy." Empathetic people may not always respect boundaries, but they at least know them. Borderlines don't see why you have any boundaries, because they think they don't. In fact, they do, which is "fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me."

  Nan%20Michiganwomyn

• I know a woman who is BPD and bipolar, and when she's NOT on meds she's a total mess with binge drinking, blaming her own kids for her own problems and issues, and it's a shame. Thankfully she's gone on meds and getting help.

• But borderlines are not expressing real empathy...it's a manipulation. They need constant validation and they will do anything to get it. They can fake empathy incredibly well. They can seem incredibly concerned about you...it's part of a snare. Once they've ensnared you, they want you to only think about them...their needs, their desires. OP's therapist/support person is an enabler. This business about "being an incredibly beautiful person on the inside, but one who does bad things" is typical of therapists who aren't qualified to work with a serious illness like borderline. They are easily manipulated by their client, who can feign caring, tenderness, and empathy to a degree that the therapist cannot objectively judge the manipulation. Borderlines really need to work with professionals who understand the illness really well. Otherwise they'll inadvertently harm the client by spewing the kind of nonsense that OP has been spoon fed. It's critical that therapists not enable their clients. But therapists don't always understand the disease, and others have a hard time dealing with their client's meltdowns so they frame everything in a flattering way. OP's whole post is a classic manipulation. "I am a tender, sensitive person who has been cruelly misrepresented. I don't mean to do the evil things I do, I'm just so lost, lonely, and frightened. Things have been hard on me, and I can't help myself." Borderlines rarely hold themselves truly accountable for the harm they cause others; they're too busy feeling sorry for themselves. And though not technically "narcissistic disorder", it's just as serious a pathology. Some believe it's actually worse. Narcissists only see themselves, they are at the center of everything within their perspective. They often lack the guileful ability of borderlines to manipulate, something which makes the borderline person far more dangerous. Narcissists tend to inadvertently expose their disorder; borderlines can deceive a prospective target with much greater finesse. People who are "beautiful on the inside" don't commit "evil acts." That's an enabler's perspective being reflected through the borderlines manipulation. Deep within borderlines is a sociopathic potential. Because they see themselves as always being the 'victims', they are able to rationalize and engage in some pretty heinous behavior. They can be very dangerous. Frankly, you're better off with a narcissist (and that's really saying something!).

• 49 is correct...borderlines don't respect boundaries.

• It is true they do not respect nor even recognize boundaries but that isn't why this disorder is term'd Borderline. #51 is spot on and I touched up that in my post. They lack a sense of self and therefore they attempt to satisfy their needs etc externally. When they are said to be primitive - it is akin to the toddler testing independence by slowly playing farther and father away from Mom Or dad and then running back and clinging to them. In a toddler it's a natural process. The borderline does that - or rather it is similar - as an adult. I really do my utmost to not have to treat someone with BPD. I swore and oath and I would not turn my back on someone in an emergency but my style just doesn't work well it. Generally, however, a major barrier for those with characterological disorders is that personality generally begins to solidly in adolescence so it becomes entrenched and with each passing year more difficult to treat and effect a positive outcome.

• From Wikipedia: "Borderline personality disorder is a diagnosis about which many articles and books have been written, yet about which little is known based on empirical research." That's a big red flag. The DSM is five or more of the following 9: "Frantic efforts to avoid real or imagined abandonment." "A pattern of unstable and intense interpersonal relationships characterized by alternating between extremes of idealization and devaluation. "Identity disturbance: markedly and persistently unstable self-image or sense of self. "Impulsivity in at least two areas that are potentially self-damaging "Recurrent suicidal behavior, gestures, threats or self-injuring behavior "Affective instability due to a marked reactivity of mood "Chronic feelings of emptiness "Inappropriate anger or difficulty controlling anger "Transient, stress-related paranoid ideation, delusions or severe dissociative symptoms" The one about fighting is the one people care about. The WHO does not recognize this "disease." It has a different definition more narrowly focused on negative aspects. Three of five of: "marked tendency to act unexpectedly and without consideration of the consequences; "marked tendency to quarrelsome behaviour and to conflicts with others, especially when impulsive acts are thwarted or criticized; "liability to outbursts of anger or violence, with inability to control the resulting behavioural explosions; "difficulty in maintaining any course of action that offers no immediate reward; "unstable and capricious mood." The WHO's definitions would not fit OP's scenario, I don't think.

• Wikipedia says the opposite, that it grows less over time and some recover, R55.

• That is the "Impulsive Disorder" of WHO. Their "borderline disorder is Two of the following in addition to the above "disturbances in and uncertainty about self-image, aims, and internal preferences (including sexual); "liability to become involved in intense and unstable relationships, often leading to emotional crisis; "excessive efforts to avoid abandonment; "recurrent threats or acts of self-harm; "chronic feelings of emptiness."

• What is the best treatment for a BPS? Therapy + meds?

• R57, Dialectical Behavioral Therapy is the best treatment.

• What's the best revenge on a BPD person?

• R55...Wiki is hardly the authority on such things. My experience is that borderlines get worse as they get older, not better. Their commitment to their illness, rather than to recovery, gets stronger and stronger. To do otherwise would potentially force them to actually see the damage they've caused to other people, rather than to view those episodes as having been evidence that they were somehow the victim. Some illnesses do get...softer, as the person gets older. Borderline is not one of them. Generally speaking, a borderline diagnosis is a bit of a sealed fate. That's why medical professionals are often reluctant to go there first. Most borderlines have had multiple diagnoses before they are actually properly diagnosed as borderline. By that time, the damage done to the person by their illness (and behavior) is somewhat irreversible. It's always best with these things to get the person into treatment while the brain is still developing. Ideally, that would be before the person is 25 or so. Once the brain has finished that stage of early development, it's extremely difficult to treat them. The pathology makes it virtually impossible, because borderlines assume a 'victim' stance that precludes a lot of self-discovery. And by that time they've learned habits (such as the faked empathy and guileful manipulation) that become difficult to treat.

• R58 is absolutely correct. The sad reality, however, is that DBT is the only treatment that has ever shown any success with borderlines, and yet it is only considered moderately effective in many cases. In most cases, even DBT cannot effectively affect a significant change in borderlines. And the practitioner has to be incredibly skilled at this method; a lesser practitioner will completely enable the client's illness, creating more harm than good. I personally think it's a better treatment for sexual abuse and trauma survivors, than for borderlines. It's too tricky with borderlines. They are seeking validation, and one of the methods of DBT is to provide validation. I've seen this go horribly awry, particularly when practitioners do not understand the manipulations and deceptions inherent in the illness. I've seen people suffer terrible setbacks because their therapist/ support person validated dysfunctional behavior, inappropriate actions, and/or dysfunctional thinking, because they were either inappropriately implementing DBT in a way that did not understand what they were dealing with.

• Are people who do the "I'm so worried about you" thing where they contact you because they say they fear for your health/safety or whatever and then proceed to make demands where you have to help THEM considered Borderline?

• No, probably just selfish. So, no one can answer me at R59?

• R63...you want an answer on how best to get revenge on a person who's severely mentally ill? Seriously? The best "revenge" is not to pander and enable them. Walk away from the person. Live a happy, functional, and fulfilling life.

• A word of caution: mental illness exists on a spectrum. Highly functioning borderlines stand more of a chance of seeking help and controlling it. R60, your experience may be with people who didn't receive BPD and/or have more severe forms.

  R58%20

• "Even though people with BPD sometimes act evil, they are not evil. " I reject this distinction. If your actions are good, there's no point in somebody's saying that "although you usually act virtuously, you're not good." Am I jus thickly practical, or is this allegation of inner goodness--despite outward acts of evil--precisely what is fucked up with therapy? If you do good, I don't care if you secretly seethe with hatred. Because I'm unlikely to ever know, but also because you might take on the qualities of your own actions. Do good, become good. Tired of people apologizing for bad deeds with, "But that's not me; not who I really am."

• Whut Ev, OP

• The reasons behind it don't change the effect. BPD's are still impossible to deal with.

  Never%20again.

• Best revenge on a BPD person is to abandon them, full stop. It's what they're most afraid of and it fuels why they behave the way they do. I grew up with a classically Borderline mother and it was hell. I was trapped - she could put on a perfectly reasonable, seemingly sane face to the public but behind closed doors, all she wanted to do was rage about something and usually at me (my younger brother was the perfect child, I was the monster. Oddly, he was the one with friends who did drugs and all I did was have weird drama friends, who obviously must have been a bad influence on me so I never heard the end of it about how I needed better friends.) I got lucky - I escaped, and menopause and grandmotherhood seems to have mellowed out my mother. I still see it lurking behind her eyes, but she's learned to keep the rages under control (or at least out of my eyesight.) And the cost is that her first-born son moved halfway across the country and sees her a couple times a year. All she ever wanted was a stable family, and she fucked herself out of it because of her selfishness and the rage inside. I deleted my Facebook after she joined because I could tell we were going down that road again. No huge loss - but it should say something that not using Facebook at all is easier than dealing with my Mother's reaction to whatever is on Facebook. And I'm 36, but it's energy I don't need in my life. I've worked too long to move away from it. I've spent enough time in therapy to know that I'm not borderline myself, but you can tell the ways in which I was raised by a borderline. I tend to be overly nice and accommodating to people, but when I hit a breaking point I have a hard time arguing rationally, because with Mom rational arguments meant nothing and the only way the fight would end was with one of us completely breaking down, so I had to learn to say the most awful, cruel, straight-to-the-gut insulting things just so Mom would cry and the fight would be over. Things about how I was glad she'd die young because she was so obese and her heart would give out (spoken calmly while looking her dead in the eye, screaming it would have lost the impact) so it means that I have an exceptionally cruel streak that can come out in very stressful situations. I could go on for days, but a post asking for sympathy for borderlines while they deliberately make other people's lives hell is classic. Sending good positive thoughts to anyone else trapped with a BPD in their life. It's a horrible, confusing thing to have to contend with.

• So this is what it has come to: lack of "validation" = abuse? Why would ANYONE want to be a parent in today's world? Talk about thankless and impossible . . .

• I've been friends for 18 years with a woman who was recently (finally!) diagnosed with BPD. She's been going to DBT for around 2 years. It's only made things worse. From the time I've known her she's been at turns: charming, funny, odd, rude, smart (very), histrionic, narcissistic, manipulative, angry - very, very angry, lonely, lost, promiscuous, withdrawn, demanding, untruthful, malicious, and very dramatic. She's gone through 12 - 15 therapists. The next to the last one finally referred her to DBT after 5 sessions of my friend sobbing on the sofa for the entire 50 minutes. She's on anti-depressants, anti-anxiety medication and has a prescription for Xanax. She's blamed her mother - who didn't love her enough and was sometimes got very angry. - her younger brother for being born and taking away her father's attention. - her aunt for coming between she and her very special very favorite grandmother. - her older sister for not paying enough attention to her when she was young. - her first boyfriend for getting her pregnant and abandoning her after she broke up with him and didn't tell him until she was 8 months along and he had moved on and married someone else. - her parents for initially disapproving of her pregancy (after she told them 2 weeks before the baby came - surprise!) and even though they later apologized and adore her daughter. - her ex-boyfriends wife for stealing him away - her bosses - who expect her to do her job like an adult. - her students (she's a teacher) who don't respect her in the way that she so richly deserves - most of her friends who don't pay enough attention to her problems and aren't sympathetic enough - strangers on the street who ask her "How are you?" and don't [italic]really[/italic] mean it. - religion (it stole her soul) - politicians (they don't really mean it either) - the internet (nobody really means anything) - her fellow group therapy patients (they're all soooo self centered) - every man that she's every had a crush on, cared about, thought about, dreamt about, who didn't respond the way she "needed him" to. She's pretended many, many times to deeply care about someone (even a student who later committed suicide) and some how made it completely about her. She's never had a genuinely kind thought about anyone else's feelings in the entire 18 years I've known her. She's was getting a little better after 1 1/2 years of DBT. Recently she spent almost an entire weekend sobbing and screaming at me on the phone because she got called on the carpet for not taking attendance in class. ("It's too much to ask along with all the other stuff I've got to do") Her therapist wouldn't answer her pages. He later apologized and validated all her hyper dramatic emotional response to a minor situation. Everything is all about her - always. She's the victim. Nobody has every loved her enough and never will. I feel very sad for her. I've walked away. Stopped taking her phone calls, stopped going to lunch (where I always had to pay) and feel like I'm free again.

• I had a friend with BPD. We met in high school and I was her friend until she was in her mid-twenties. From what I have read about BPD, it tends to rear its ugly head starting in the late teens to early twenties, but the seeds of it are planted in early childhood, usually from family-inflicted trauma. My friend had been molested and raped when she was a young child, mostly by her oldest brother though possibly by her father as well. She blocked out those traumatic memories and only began to uncover them after years of meds and therapy. It is sad to think of what a marvelous person she'd have become if not for the abuse and instability in her childhood. She had always been articulate, dramatic, emotional, witty and caring since I'd met her, but as time passed it seemed that her personality was being eroded and consumed by the disorder. The wit and charm and listening skills and logic all fell by the wayside and what was left was a quivering mass of untethered emotions. It became exhausting to be around her because of all the drama! drama! drama! and her relationships to people always seemed to be 100% LOVE or 100% HATE. She became obsessed with some loser guy who treated her like crap and for the last half-decade that I knew her, it seemed her every thought and desire revolved around him. I never met him but by her description he seems equally dysfunctional, so I dearly hope they never have children. The good news is that, because of the mood stabilizing meds she takes, the doctors made her have an IUD implanted that'll keep her from getting pregnant for ten years. As to people with BPD mellowing out or getting better over time, what I've read is that they're at their highest risk for suicide/suicide attempts in their mid-to-late twenties and that after that they seem to naturally stabilize enough so that they're no longer suicidal. Since BPD is mostly diagnosed in women, I wonder if the severity of the BPD is related to hormone fluctuation / fertility level. Either way, I have been told that people with BPD are never really cured and that the most you could expect is for them to stabilize enough to be functional in society; hold down a job etc. That unless you're directly related to someone with BPD, it's in your own best interest not to get involved with one on any meaningful level because it's stressful and emotionally exhausting at best. I've only known the one person with BPD, but she did have a conscience and, underneath all the crazy, she had a good heart. She was a good friend for more than a decade and I hope she finds peace and fulfillment in life. Perhaps in a decade or two modern medicine will offer better treatment for her disorder.

• "My friend had been molested and raped when she was a young child, mostly by her oldest brother though possibly by her father as well. She blocked out those traumatic memories and only began to uncover them after years of meds and therapy." There are still people who believe this nonsense?

• Gurl, I dont care what causes the disorder, all I know is it takes a damn fool codependednt to deal with one. Face if, if someone says "I borderline", run as fast as you can. Otherwise, you'll be on here posting next week how your borderline friend stole your credit card and boyfriend cause he was cycling that day.

• R72...your friend was lying. It's what borderlines do. You were manipulated. Your own post is baffling...you say she had a "conscience", yet all the behavior you describe suggests otherwise. You say she was a "good friend", but "exhausting" to be around; that she HATED or LOVED people, and that she was "drama, drama, drama!." That's all contradictory. My guess is that she was your "friend" because you were fairly easy to manipulate, and you (in some way) enabled her. Borderlines tend to LOVE people who enable them, and HATE people who call them on their shit. The "recovered memory" business is typical of borderlines. They create abuse scenarios to help rationalize their cruel, aggressive, and harmful behavior. The scenario is meant to elicit sympathy and to make the other person more malleable. The fact that you are terrified that your friend might choose to have children says a lot about her. You are no longer friends with her, and I'm assuming it's because it all became too much for you. I understand that you want to believe she was a 'good person deep down inside', but it's not a question of that. She has a serious mental illness, one that creates a situation where behavior is always a means to an end.

• R65...generally I'd agree that there is a "spectrum." But illnesses such as borderline do not have a huge variation in manifestation. There are folks who can function at a "higher level" in terms of working, perhaps. But I never use "working" as a criteria of 'better' or 'worse' mental health. There are mentally ill who can't work who are highly functioning in other areas, and vice versa. Borderline is fairly consistent in its impact upon the individual and on those in that individual's social environment. A "lessor" form of borderline might well be another illness...it might be a manifestation of trauma, for example. Borderline itself is fairly predictable and consistent. It's also important, I think, to point out that personality disorders are often not a result of abuse. That's a misnomer. PTSD can be triggered by abuse. But personality disorders often manifest in people who are raised in families where the parents have personality disorders. It often seems to get perpetuated within families through a replication of behavior/perspective from parent to child. This may be partly caused by a genetic predisposition; scientific research has shown a chromosome issue with BPD's, and there is a high rate of BPD among twins. Nothing has been proven; it's all correlation, not causation. It is interesting, however, to see the high degree of correlation in these areas among people with BPD. This would clearly be exacerbated by behavioral issues within the family, particularly ones that are parent-to-child.

• Interesting post R76. Do we know how borderline personality disorder correlates with employment? I wonder of there is a "best career choice" for them. Based on what I am reading here it seems some would excel at sales. A psychologist friend once told me that even non-indulging children of alcoholics enter adulthood with alcoholic behavior because it's their norm, the only adult behavior they know well.

• Theoretically, people with borderline can work. The problem is that borderlines have difficulty interacting with others, and that can create a myriad of problems. They tend to go from job to job, on a fairly frequent basis. The other alarming fact is that they tend to be drawn to helping professions. This raises a whole host of other issues, particularly since their motivation for wanting to be in those professions is usually dysfunctional. It's a part of the illness...wanting to manipulate vulnerable people by trying to create a false persona...faking empathy as a manipulative snare...trying to elicit validation that they are "good people" while simultaneously carrying a hidden agenda. It's a disconcerting aspect of the illness. I have heard of instances where someone who was diagnosed as borderline became successful in the work field, but it's all anecdotal. I've never actually seen that myself.

• [quote]Based on what I am reading here it seems some would excel at sales. I think that would be the worst - they can't deal with rejection. In sales you deal with a lot of rejection. I doubt they would last long in sales, it would be too much for them to deal with. Lots of informative information on this thread. OP, I do have compassion for people who suffer from Borderline Personality Disorder. Because I don't think they can help themselves. I would be supportive if they were therapy bound though. However, even if they were, I would always have to keep a safe distance, and just be causal friends or acquaintances having to accept the fact that at anytime the casual friendship will completely cease, with no rational explanation. Basically never expect anything from them - not even common courtesy, consideration, or a real heart to heart exchange. It will never happen. I could never get involved with someone who has this. Ever. There is no sense of fairness in a romantic relationship or good friendship with one. You are constantly walking on eggshells having to censor or carefully word everything so the BPDer would not feel a sense of abandonment or rejection - there will come a time where you will slip, which will just cause the BPDer to turn on you and suddenly make you his or her subject of hatred, drama and turmoil. It's too much work with nothing good that will come out of it. Not to mention all of the turmoil and drama involved. The cycle of hurting people. It is not a two way relationship - only one way - their way, a way that always changes when the wind blows. You can't even predict their behavior, thoughts or feelings, it changes so much. A borderline has nothing to give, and will only take. They will put you on a pedastal one day and suddenly turn on you the next day due to factors that are completely out of your control. It's just not equal footing, and so not worth the hurt and turmoil involved. They also have no real sense of identity. They will obsess over one thing one day, and lose interest the next. They take on the interests and hobbies of the people they are "interested in" at the moment - and lose interest in those activities as they lose interest in that person. Then on to the next obsession, and identity/hobby/interest shift. They are not true to themselves because they have no idea on even who they are - or what they want. If they don't know who they are or what they want - how are you supposed to know as a friend or romantic partner? You can't know. Basically you can't ever "know" them on a deep level. The "relationship" will always just be too surfacey with no potential to evolve and grow deeper. Ideally, they talk of wanting to be normal, having a normal life, a stable life, but that will never happen. They are not capable of that. It doesn't mean that they are not good people somewhere inside - I do believe that under all that confusion and instability, deep down there is probably a lot of good there - but their over sensitivity, irrational thought process, impulsivity, and selfish behavior over shadows all of it. From what I have read real borderlines don't seek therapy, is this true? Or do therapists just avoid taking them on as clients due to how difficult they are to treat?

• R79...it depends upon the definition of "seeking therapy." Borderlines are often advised to apply for Social Security Disability, and that requires psychiatric assessment. In order to get other critical services (like health care) they may have to have a case worker. Their interest in "therapy" is often only an interest in being unconditionally validated. If they do not receive that validation, they quickly move on to another practitioner. In some instances, a borderline will search, fairly exhaustively, for a practitioner whom they believe they can manipulate, and who will enable them in their illness. Even in these instances they will become extremely agitated, and even very confrontational, if they believe the practitioner is not 'on their side.' They will insist upon the practitioner's 'sympathy' and unconditional acceptance. This is obviously very damaging to the person in treatment; they often change the facts of circumstances to make themselves seem more sympathetic, and will even create elaborate abuse scenarios in order to elicit sympathy from the practitioner. If the practitioner is an enabler, this can have serious consequences, and the borderline's mental health can severely deteriorate...it's a catch-22. The borderline wants only positive feedback and complete, unequivocal validation. This is, in turn, damaging to them. Yet they will not tolerate any criticism they perceive to be 'negative', even if it's proffered with great care. So, in a real sense, they are not looking for "therapy." They're looking to be enabled. This is why practitioners are often reluctant to work with borderlines...it's a situation that isn't amenable to real therapeutic growth, and it can ultimately actually cause greater harm to the person because their motivation is dysfunctional.

• [quote]Yet they will not tolerate any criticism they perceive to be 'negative', even if it's proffered with great care. Yes, this is what I was referring to as always having to censor yourself/walking on eggshells when communicating with a borderline - and there will come a time when you slip and are not as careful. It's a lot of work, and doesn't seem worth it. If they do receive criticism or perceived criticism, they are confrontational, correct? Or, is their way of confronting just dropping the therapist, or person who is confronting them with their behavior - as they are suddenly the "bad person" for saying something? What I am trying to say is - a borderline WILL confront someone, verbally? Or do they use other methods - by just dropping someone or being avoidant of the issue/criticism at hand?

  this%20is%20sometimes%20confusing

• And you have to watch everything you say *so* carefully because you know it can (and likely will) be used against you. Somehow. Some way.

  Therapist

• [quote] So, in a real sense, they are not looking for "therapy." They're looking to be enabled. Sounds like they are looking for love but only as it exists in their unbaked definition of it.

• R81...borderlines will not eschew confrontation. To the contrary, they can be extremely confrontational. The reason they drop the therapist differs from the one the borderline person would generally proffer. A borderline person will say, "this therapist doesn't get me. He doesn't understand that I'm the victim, and that I need support and self esteem. I need affirmation, not criticism. He's against me. He's not on my side." Etc. What's really happening is that the borderline person's manipulations aren't working, and he's afraid that the therapist is 'on to' him. Borderlines won't tolerate that. They may fight, at first, and demand that the practitioner accept their false persona at face value, and deal with them in accordance with that false persona. Borderlines will sometime fight tooth and nail to get the unconditional validation that they demand. You'd be amazed at how often this is successful. Practitioners will sometimes 'back down' just from the sheer force of the borderlines indignant anger and their accusations. Ultimately, however, the borderline can only get so much compliance from practitioners, in terms of getting nothing but positive validation and unconditional acceptance. When that happens, the borderline person will start shopping around for a new practitioner, one whom they can start 'fresh' with. In some instances, borderlines, after learning the details of BPD, will demand that their diagnosis be changed, or they will not work with the practitioner. They refuse to accept the diagnosis, and will aggressively argue that they do not fit the criteria. If the practitioner does not acquiesce, the borderline person will move on.

• R83...looking for love? No, not at all.

• R84, with all the different personality disorders discussed on DL, I have read on some, but get confused as many have common traits - but are entirely different disorders. Thank you for clarifying that BPD's were confrontational.

• Any famous Borderlines?

• I think the Office's Michael Scott is a perfect example of BPD. Because they have made it into a comedy, the impact of his abuse as manager is dampened. But just watch him in each episode and you will understand the dysfunction in full view.

• R60 - BDP is the military's favorite diagnosis for everything, particularly in cases where individuals either refuse to conform, or in cases of those who are whistleblowers, precisely because it is seen as a sealed fate, and certainly affects military careers that way.

• I am fairly certain that my sister, who recently died after years of struggling with mental illness and drug addiction, was either Borderline, Bipolar or both. Sometimes the two disorders can manifest themselves in similar ways. And I'm not referring to the bogus contemporary notion of Bipolar as a disorder that afflicts anyone who has ever had a mood swing in their life, but rather the severe, chaotic manic depressive disorder.

  V

• R89...that's interesting and terribly depressing. I doubt that most practitioners would accept a military diagnosis of a mental illness. There's usually an agenda involved. Fascinating to learn that the military is even more evil than I had imagined.

• R90...you're exactly right. It's not uncommon for borderlines to be mistakenly diagnosed as having bipolar disorder. And I'm also referring to the actual illness, not the contemporary pop culture version; another astute observation on your part.

• The military was misdiagnosing people as having personality disorders before there was a better understanding of TBI and PTSD. It is only very recently that things have changed. It is also hard to diagnose those conditions because there is less continuity of care than in the civilian world, since service members change duty stations frequently. I have seen my friends' personalities change after war and nobody at their new unit will have any clue what they were like before combat. Unless your chain of command happened to put you in for a Purple Heart, nobody will know you have TBI.

  Conspiracy%20shmonspiracy

• R93...thank you for that clarification.

• I've been told one of my mother's sisters was diagnosed with this. But everything I read about it seems even more descriptive of my mother and grandmother. Granted, my aunt has been medicated for quite some time now and went through some therapy, the other two have never had it looked into.

• In Girl Interrupted wasn't Winona's character diagnosed BPD? She didn't seem manipulative though.

• "In Girl Interrupted wasn't Winona's character diagnosed BPD?" There was nothing really wrong with the Winona Ryder character in that film, although by the end it looked like the mental hospital would drive a normal girl nuts. The Angelina Jolie character was supposed to be a real BPD, and didn't it come easily for such a limited actress!

• I'm pretty sure my mother had BPD. She was a cross between Faye Dunaway in Mommie Dearest and Eunice Higgins from Mama's Family.

• R97, What makes you think I was acting?

  AJ-P

• R98=my nephew

• I thought Angelina's character was a sociopath. She's always saying how proud she is of that because they are so rarely women.

• Recovered memory syndrome is a skeevy, discredited theory. People who've been abused as children develop all sorts of problems precisely because they CAN'T block out what happened to them.

• My BPD ex-wife screamed at me because she asked me for money, and I didn't give her any. She said: I know I lost my money gambling but I don't have a husband to fall back on. Now mind you, she made $20,000.00/year more than me but wants me to bail her out if she loses her money gambling. She was a compulsive gambler and that would of made me go broke to keep bailing her out. They are definitely out for themselves period. She said that she works hard for her money (as if I didn't) and she can do whatever she wanted with it. I had to finally tell her she wasn't welcome in my home anymore. I feel sorry for anyone in a relationship with a borderline. She was actually a cluster B.

• A large portion of our population has some form of mental illness. They end up self-medicating with illegal drugs or drink, because it is cheaper and easier than paying for real treatment.

• So do people with BPD ever "cure" themselves with therapy? How many years does it take, if so? I went no-contact on an ex that I believe had BPD. It was crazy-making already and I could see that it was only going to get worse (which he would have "relished" or at least enjoyed the complications, I feel). He went smack-bang into a long-distance relationship with someone else almost immediately afterwards and has it least twice tried to meet up to talk intensely about our original connection/love. I decided to keep him at a distance, certainly while he is still in another relationship. But it's painful for me; I could and can see his issues, and he can too (he has said this), and I wonder whether he will ever change. Or maybe he is "fixed" in his new relationship, and I am just kidding myself that he was BPD (or possibly bipolar, which I think was his only official diagnosis years ago, which he claims his psychiatrist then changed her mind about). Can they change / do they change? Will a different relationship "cure" them and their behavior?

• BPD bump.

• Here's a question? What do I do with my mother, who completely enabled my father's BPD and emotional abuse against me for decades? My father was a cruel, nasty guy with intense BPD. He made my life miserable growing up, and I finally walked out of his life when I was 32 and never saw him again until a few years later when he was on his deathbed in a coma. I should have done it years before. My mother spent my entire life enabling him - making excuses for his outbursts, telling me that I provoked him because of my "tone," because I used certain words he didn't like, etc. She has never taken any responsibility for her actions or her complicity in his abuse. Instead, even now she makes excuses, focusing on how much emotional pain he was in, and pretending she actually stood up to him and protected me. She has a long history of lying - certainly to me, probably to herself - in order to pretend that everything is fine. In essence, my mother decided to be a mother to my father rather than to me - probably because he was the one with the job that paid the bills, and it was easier to just crush me than to stand up to him. For years we've had only the most superficial relationship because she simply wouldn't recognize the toxic family dynamic or do anything about it. He could have temper tantrums in public or pull whatever sort of juvenile behavior he wanted, and I was always at fault because I didn't accept and understand it. For years our entire relationship has been her babbling on about whom she's run into at the supermarket, what random cousins I've met three times in my life are dying of what form of obscure cancer, etc. There's never been any effort to reach out to me or deal with the mess of the past. This year I finally got sick of the charade with my mother and had several huge blowup arguments on the phone with her (she's in IL, I'm in NY). I basically told her that she was a bad mother, that she had decades of opportunities to make my life better but refused to do so because she didn't want to be bothered, and that I wasn't sure I wanted her in my life anymore. Now she's calling me all the time and leaving voicemails, saying she misses me and that she loves me, blah blah blah. I think it's just that she's all alone - mid-70s, no siblings, dead husband, and her only child who doesn't want to deal with her - and is scared. But she still has shown absolutely no understanding of how she contributed to his abuse or that she has anything to make amends for. Do I just cut her out of my life completely?

• [quote]What do I do with my mother, who completely enabled my father's BPD Nothing. BPD is a mental illness. Are you saying people with mental illness aren't sick? If someone has the flu and you bring them soup you aren't enabling them. That's insulting to all mentally ill people.

• r108, fuck off and die a painful death in a sewer.

• 108 is clueless. 107, your mother didn't "enable" your father's abuse. It sounds like she was the primary abuser. He was mentally ill. She was not. She was the healthy one. The one seeing the world clearly. Making rational decisions, informed choices. Or what she thought were.

• This thread has surprised me. Really. Some making (ridiculous) excuses and justification, a handful offering professional experiences and some spewing vitriol. It doesn't really matter what the borderline's intent or internal struggle is to the people whose lives have been damaged. It only matters to the borderline, and they are most likely lying to everyone, including themselves, anyway. If a person is toxic, stay away from them. You can't save people from themselves. Be clear about your reasoning: "Mom, you're a hateful bitch who made my childhood a nightmarish misery. You still make me miserable and I don't want you in my life. Stop calling me. Good bye." Don't expect her to agree or validate your feelings or ever do anything but continue to be a miserable bitch. It's not going to happen. "Friend, I'm sorry you are a borderline personality and I would help you if I could but you are trouble on two legs and I have my own issues to deal with. Stop calling me. Good bye." Yes, she/he will have a tantrum and trash you to anyone who will listen, but so what? Consider the source. I know this sounds harsh, but half my family is bipolar (most unmedicated because the meds "make me feel like I'm not myself." Duh! That's the point!) and a few have worse things going on, including BPD. When I was younger I thought I had some obligation to fix them all but I finally realized that I couldn't and in fact I was just throwing my own energy into a black hole that nothing could ever fill. The little I could do just propped them up enough to make them worse. Yes, it's an awful thing that so many people are so profoundly damaged, but unless they really want help and are willing to work on it, including taking their meds, then you can do nothing for them but sacrifice yourself on the altar of their selfish needs. /rant

  Yes, I know, get a blog ...

• Huh. Of all those "symptoms" of BPD in the OP's post, only a few seem to be true of me... but they're very strong. So I don't have BPD, but clearly I have something. Maybe it's just "trust issues"? These are the ones that are true of me, as far as I can tell: - If someone fails to keep a promise, that person can no longer be trusted; - If I trust someone, I run a great risk of getting hurt or disappointed; I will always be alone; - There is no one who really cares about me, who will be available to help me, and whom I can fall back on; - I will never get what I want;

• The conclusion OP drew, that the borderline is the inverse of a narcissist, is simply a lie. They are not concerned with others so much that they forget themselves. On the contrary....

• R105 True borderline personalities employ splitting as a coping mechanism developed as vulnerable infants. They have not learned the basic lesson most infants achieve. That the source of all gratification (mother) sometimes is not available at the moment of need, but she will be available again and can be trusted. If course, borderlines have probably endured much more deprivation and neglect, even abuse, than most infants. As adults, they idealize the love object, go to great lengths to win and please them. They fall in love quickly and often. This love object is the "good mother", the source of all good feelings. When their expectations and extreme needs can't be met they split, the all good object now becomes the bad object. This leads to the extremely dramatic ups and downs anyone who has had a relationship with one can attest to. They are often desperately pertinent but are unable to change the dynamic. When a borderline leaves or is forced from a relationship, the partner is often amazed that the person who may have been near suicidal and clinging is very quickly into a new intense relationship. Another example of splitting. R105 Advice: run quickly and far. He is not fixed, nor will he be. BPD patients are very difficult to treat.

• I don't have the faintest idea what you mean by borderlines being "desperately pertinent."

• R108 has no idea what "enabling" is, or why it's a bad thing.

• R115 I meant pentinent, damn autocorrect.

  e%20114

• lol penitent

  why%20even%20bother%20

• Thank you, r114.

• I have been in a LTR with someone with BPD for the past 7 years, and it is extremely difficult. When she had a good therapist/worked at her therapy, things were better. We had to move for my work, and her new therapist just goes through the motions, and so does my partner. She has fallen into a pattern of justifying outrageous behavior, twisting anything that is said to her into an insult, and picking fights at the drop of the hat. I do care about her, but our life together is becoming untenable. I know she suffered terrible trauma in her past, but I cannot continue to pay the price for the sins of her father.

  anonymous

• I find this thread to be much like all others regarding BPD. there is such a deliberate coldness for people who suffer from or struggle with this diagnosis. I self diagnosed myself with BPD after years of trying to find out why I felt like a frightened witness in my own mind and body. I suffered a traumatic brain injury in 1998, while still a teenager, and over many years began to feel completely disconnected from my thought processes. Major depression, anxiety, emotional disregulation, rage...all things I was all too aware of that I couldn't always control. No medication felt right in my still developing brain, and no halfassed therapy I would seek out seemed to fit my mind. I am now in my 30s, and basically terrified of becoming the mother with body that ruins her only child, after nearly dying from complications during his birth. I fear being the crazy girlfriend because I tried to act normal and did not make my emotional needs clear-therby setting myself up to lose my shit when I was truly mistreated. I resent being potentially labeled the kind of person who makes themselves the victim when I say I have opened up about my weaknesses and guilt and shame for what I thought were just shitty personality traits--and it left me the one manipulated, used, and invaded for. I believe that bpd is being used as a diagnosis for people who do really shitty things to their kids, their spouses, etc by people who want answers as to why their parent or spouse treated them so terribly. I suspect my mom had a touch of it, but she was more histrionic. All I know is the more I read on this disorder, the more convinced I am that I have it, wonder if the brain damage as a teen assigned me this fate, worry every day that one day my son will be like many of these poster's, so casual when it comes to unfeeling not giving a shit. I have been victimized, but don't consider myself a victim. I have suffered many traumas that would rightly fuck up anyone's mind. I am wary of meds because I think they did damage to my still growing mind. I know that I have done terrible things that I truly felt were beyond my control. I know a lot of the time I meet all 9 criteria for Bpd, but I also know that when someone is having a bad time in THEIR life, I am there to make them laugh and distract them for a moment. I have been told since I was young that I have a knack for making people feel better, and am often called upon just to listen to people vent. I am thanked for my ability to understand what is hurting others when they. cannot. I do not have to try to understand what hurts people, it is natural. And I don't empathize so as to manipulate later, or expect them to empathize in return--although I think its kinda fucked up that wanting reciprocity in relationships is defined as a symptom of a disorder. I try to make everyone I know feel better when they are sad or angry or confused because I would value that interaction. And it makes me feel good about myself, like even though I have some shit wrong with me--it alone cannot define me. I am a whole person, capable of rage and insensitivity, impulsivity and desperation...but also generosity and brevity, supportive and kind, understanding and accepting. ...and the Bpd in me just has to say once again that all of you with your heartless directives to abandon people with bpd seem to have your own real issues, and if that is the attitude you bring to the table when dealing with someone who has this "horrible" disorder, no wonder they treat you like shit. Just because I have a hard time regulating my emotions doesn't mean I can't tell when someone is shitting on me...

• There will be mostly cloudy skies in NYC for tonight's NYE celebration. Times Square has been blocked off for tonight's celebration. The phrases most unpopular include: Whatever and 24/7 The financial crisis loom

• Get some rest R121. It will all look different tomorrow.

• This thread is extremely helpful as I just left someone who suffers from BPD and I'm still dealing with the aftermath of that relationship. My therapist told me my ex probably suffers from BPD and told me to read a book on BPD's. My ex pretty much fits all the criteria! I was shocked. As someone who genuinely loved my partner (although I only managed to stay with her for less than a year), it's really hard to explain to my family and friends why I even stayed so long, given the level of emotional abuse. I was constantly blamed for being the source for all of her problems. Yet I still find it hard to cut all contact completely. Maybe people could share stories of how they managed to cut all contact. How long it took them, etc. I'm really struggling with it, as my instinct is to at least stay friendly and try to help her. I know it's pointless....

• i know two women with the disorder..both have absolutely no genuine thoughts for the welfare of their (ex)girlfriends or friends, one of them has only one friend, who is also emotionally damaged. both have no social skills other than superficial chatter. there is no depth to them and when they are challenged, they are either 'too tired' or 'too busy' meaning, i know im losing this argument so i return to my default setting. one wouldnt let her g/f have a phonecall without needing something done immediately, meaning the g/f would have to cut short her conversation, to attend the disorder's needs and therefore her fear of abandonment was allayed again. the other one would be very secretive about her phonecalls, even going out late at night and making up a story about going to help a friend etc..when she returned got very angry when challenged and turned it into the other persons problem that she wasnt trusted! both complete headfucks..they should come with health warnings like cigarettes

  jasperpop

• so if you are in relationship with someone like that, is it best to completely remove yourself from their lives, even on a friend level?

• both of my friends said they wished they had left quicker, but as usual lesbians will go to the bitter end and by then all empathy for the ones with the disorder had gone. both of them want absolutely nothing to do with them as they are still blaming them for everything and anything. its a great relief that they are no longer the carer, mother, housekeeper, cook, etc. although one of my friends is having therapy to understand why she stayed so long.shes angry with herself for wasting her life with this person. personally i would either run a mile or i would only do what i wanted to do period. no leeway for 'madness'. none at all.

  jasperpop

• I'm convinced one of my ex BFs had BPD. Charming, witty, smart to the public but angry, dark, and abusive when it was just the two of us. I told him it was over and he cried and said he was going to kill himself if I wouldn't see him. I was young and dumb and eventually let him creep back into my life. But then he got even more drunk, mean and controlling and I finally put my foot down and told him goodbye get out of my life. He thought he could guilt me back into the relationship - he'd send me letters, gifts, call me crying saying his father was dying, etc. I was scared he would do something violent towards me and would end up stalking me. He eventually drifted away and found someone else to torture. I looked him up recently - he has held down a fairly high level job and owns house. I can only imagine what he is like now, esp since some of you say one doesn't mellow w/ this illness. I booted him from my life 15 years ago. I used to think he was "just" an alcoholic narcissist but I see it was more than that esp w the suicide threats. Fascinating thread.

  bad%20memory

• I have an ex who had this along with being bipolar. The experience was like slamming a hammer into your head over and over. It put every other failed relationship I've ever had into perspective.

• BPD is of course a real disorder. It is also known as the wastebasket of psychiatric diagnosis, for difficult and unhappy people and lazy clinicians. Like most personality disorders it is too casually thrown about by internet amateurs who have learned some new words. "Aspie's" do not exist as usually referred to out here. The OP's definition is pretty on the mark and many others here have expressed their struggles with being borderline or being intimately attached to one. Many therapists refuse to take on this kind of individual and others take them on for the clinical study only. BPD is the most difficult of personality disorders to treat as it basically requires re-parenting of very difficult adults. But it does exist on a spectrum and their are borderline borderlines, if you will. If self awareness and acceptance is present in the patient, there is hope. Again I will say this is considered by most all serious clinicians to be a throwaway diagnosis in the common vernacular. I am not suggesting that anyone who has posted out here has not had a real experience, but the label does not always fit. A true borderline is not without resources. They often have a lot of charm and tenacity. Initially, and sometimes lifelong they are more able to make connections with people in social and romantic relationships that have more depth than a narcissist or obsessive compulsive personality can achieve. Hence the pain and confusion that can be ensue. However even the most unconditional of love is unlikely to "cure" or bring stability to someone with BPD. Most of the posters out here seem to know this and show a fair amount of insight. I repeat however, that it is a tossed about diagnosis and need not be applied to just anyone who has difficulty in feeling secure in relationships. The best clinicians are not label obsessed, but use them diagnostically when they think it can be of some help to the patient's understanding and treatment. This others involved of course.

• [quote]Like most personality disorders it is too casually thrown about by internet amateurs who have learned some new words. Do you include yourself? If not (and I would suppose not since you jaw on about it so), what are your qualifications then for being such an expert in the diagnosis and not another internet amateur? Are you a practicing clinician yourself? From where did you get your psychiatric degree and your training?

• I expected this sort of response and challenge and why not r131 ? I am not BPD. I have made my statements and did not jaw on about anything. Often the most reasonable of opinions and facts are unacceptable to others. Nothing I said is controversial or in debate to mental health professionals. I am not about to provide my clinical qualifications to you or to defend them. I posted with all good intentions in accordance with my experience and training. My hope was to illuminate, not to discredit anyone.

• [quote]I am not about to provide my clinical qualifications to you or to defend them. Then why in the world should we believe you in particular since you're tearing down other people's opinions on BPD? You raised the entire matter yourself by attacking others' opinions and simultaneously setting yourself up as the expert on BPD. Frankly, unless you can provide some sort of credentials, none of us has any reason to accept your opinion than we do anyone else's here. You're just another Internet schmoe expressing his opinion.

• R22' is a flaming fag

• Speak for yourself, r133. R130 hit the nail whith the "re-parenting" thing. Must be a nightmare for therapists.

  Relative%20of%20a%20bpd

• I don't really understand why we need to be fighting about all of this. Everyone brings in valid insights, either from personal experience or more professional opinion. If you are trying to deal with someone who has this disorder, this thread is incredibly helpful. I am slowly giving up any hope that my love and my ability to withstand the mood swings will ever bring about any real change in my partner. The difference between the narcissistic personality disorder and a BPD is fundamental though and I really appreciate someone explaining it so well here. It's helping me put all the missing pieces together.

• They want to be seen as good, and manipulate carefully to that end. The nice part seems to be an act, the snarly mean vicious stuff is too practiced not to be the core personality. It was called Borderline because it was close to a psychosis, but not 100%... and when not in the throws of some emotion driven craziness, they can seem non-psychotic. The name is terrible as it doesn't sound very bad, and it is very bad. Dated a girl with it and she devastated me, caused me to lose my business, a good job, my marriage, and my self respect. It truly is me, me, me, me with them. The sex was great.. but it was just used to get you hooked, it wasn't love. They are insecure and driven by needs... their needs, not yours. Avoid them for your sake.

• The over the top angry people who post on this thread are not BPD or NPD, they are people who have come in contact with one or the other, likely recent to their post. People with BPD can do alot of damage and cause incredible suffering and throw normal people way off. I just spent the weekend getting 48 hrs of ranting about how evil i am etc etc. When he bottomed out, he felt well and stable enough to tell me I am as mentally ill and the pot calling the kettle black. I've often wanted to film a BPD rage, they just dont get it! Being Wrong all the time in a BPD relationship causes a lot of anger. People with BPD seem really evil because they supposedly love you but turn on you so quickly. Not only that, they are sometimes unsafe, they destroy your property or get physically abusive. I think some Boderlines are capable of killing you in a rage. Be careful of these ppl! I have broken up today after suicide threats and the whole shebang. I tried to understand but the lack of empathy and the frequency of the rages was making me afraid and sick. Borderlines make you feel guilty for leaving them. I will say just RUN the other way, guilt is better than constant misery and fear which they NEVER comprehend. I am also very angry about this.

  Anonymous

• Oh, I want to qualify my post above when I say that Borderlines 'never' understand the pain and fear they cause, Im talking about Active (not in therapy)

  Anonymous

• I really identify with what a lot of you here said about BPD's and their partners. I too have wanted to record my girlfriend's rages, because I had never seen anything like that. The fights/rages were also over really trivial things and by the end of them, I was always blamed for being the mentally ill one and the one who is angry/evil etc, even though I never even raised my voice. The psychological damage it does to you, as their partner, is hard to describe. And yet, you get hooked to the great sex and the spontaneous and (positively) intense aspects of he relationship, so it's hard to leave. At least that's been my experience.

• I believe it's hard to leave because of co-dependancy and the Borderlines constant manipulations. After this last bout of rage, blame and fear (because he was saying he wanted to die etc, could not stop vomitting, crying), which had me worried sick- when he bottomed (this is the end of the cycle, energy spent out) he went out with friends to play music, seemed perfectly fine and texted me saying that I knew he was crazy and stuck around anyway so it's STILL my fault. At that point I had the greatest of all epiphanies, immediately cut off the relationship with NO talking or texting and every day since is better. When you get some distance you begin to realize how bad you were hurting, how much they manipulated you, how little all those 'feelings' they supposedly had actually meant, it was all about them, always will be and you, when the short adoration stage is gone- are just their punching bag of choice. I no longer believe 'they can't help it' I believe the action is well practiced and the core person. There IS control because they dont do it when it's important they NOT. They just get everyone doing what they want out of fear and creating chaos for attention and get off on it. They actually despise you- just cant deal with you leaving. Read articles from BPD sites when they tell you how they are, youll begin to believe they should all be locked up for the good of society, and themselves. for a Co-dep who is buying into that a Borderline will kill themselves if you leave them, guess what? a borderline is never alone for long, you'll be surprised how soon that suicidal crying screaming lunatic is in someone else's bed as soon as they find another adoring victim. It's better to leave them AFTER a major rant when theyre spent out, they will tell you to go fuck yourself and you can skip all the suicidal crap, and dont talk to them or they'll reel you back in. The longer You stay with one the sicker YOU will get. Beware.

  Anonymous

• thank you for your thread, you summed up nearly every angle that bpd use for their own gains. as ive said in my previous threads, it can take a long time to realise that your not the 'unreasonable' and 'selfish' one in the realtionship, but you definitely are the 'unwilling victim'. i think also that when youre older maybe 40+ then you start to see things with a different outlook and are not in the 'young love' stage, when 'drama's' and 'making a scene' can be commonplace with just abt anyone. as someone on previous thread said they are called 'borderline' because they are 'borderline psychotic' which is very very scary! and sadly i dont think the knowledge of this state is common like bi polar or autistism is. so we are left with a very large number of people worldwide (im in uk) that are currently going about destroying their partners lives and its put down as 'they are highly strung', 'very emotional', 'difficult' etc etc..wow, so be on your guard and dont be afraid to walk away asap from the new relationship as soon as those bells start ringing!

  jasperpop

• Slap a Haloperidol patch on a Borderline and they are almost tolerable.

• No you do...sorry but my mother is one..."Beautiful inside" not my momster..she is borderline and histrionic...narcissistic, too. If she had any empathy, it was for herself only..always the victim. She single handed lay ruined the lives of everyone around her and destroyed the extended family. Of course it was never her fault. She is an awful person ...no me can stand to be around her.

  Lcjones

• Oh Gosh, just by this post I can feel your deep pain. Just know there are many here that get it. The best thing to do is make yourself better. Whatever that is, a gym, friends, movies, something and anything. Make sure you get up everyday and look for life, because it's yours for the taking.

  Sonja

• I have autism so I can do what I want and anyone who says otherwise is an AIDS infected homo.

• I'm finding this thread very helpful. I had a partner who must have had BPD and this is the first time I've read any insights that have really helped me to understand what it was. She was actually great in lots of ways, whip smart, sexy and extremely fun. She did have, I believe, genuine compassion for me and others. She could be very caring and helpful to others and because she was so smart, she could be a lot of help. This was until her paranoia took over, which it always did. Then she was a nightmare, full stop. She played out an abandonment scenario with me every few months-mostly she would abandon me and I would find myself begging her not to do it. Then we would have a "break up/closure talk" where I would be hauled into her court and have every last thing I ever said to her twisted back to me in ways I never meant. I would fight or resist these interpretations and end up apologizing for things I never said or did just to end the court session. Then she would proclaim us officially I would walk away heart broken and somewhat relieved to have the relationship finally over. Then she would call a few days or weeks later, crying because she was having a crisis or missing me etc... Then the whole cycle started again. I'm still not sure how or why I ended up putting up with this. I was at a low point in my life and the relationship did make me very happy for a brief few months. I kept stupidly thinking that we could just get back there, if she could learn to relax and trust me. (She had a nightmare childhood, of course) I had never had any relationship like it before and I didn't recognize myself in it. Finally I walked away for good and stopped communicating with her after she sent me one crazy email too many. I still loved her though and was worried about her constantly. She committed suicide 3 months later and I have never been the same. I'm in a very good relationship now and grateful but something feels broken inside me. I'm always worried something will go wrong and I can't enjoy it as much as I should. I feel very guilty both towards her and towards myself for ever being involved in that mess. I feel like I was the final trigger for her. I know it's not my fault but it still feels like some awful twist of fate that I could have avoided if I hadn't been lonely and stupid.

  Lesbian%20Drama

• R147 your story hits so close to home for me. My ex girlfriend, from whom I just separated, but she is stringing me along and I still love her, sounds a lot like your ex girlfriend. The behavior of twisting my words, making me apologize for things I don't think I ever said or meant, threats of suicide, lack of trust. The paranoia is what was the hardest part to take, because I always felt like I was dealing with imaginary problems and how can you even begin to resolve something that doesn't exist? R147 I wish there was a support group for (ex) partners of BPD's because it's been extremely helpful to compare notes. Thank you for sharing your story.