Has anyone attended seminary or even gotten as far as the priesthood or monastery? Is there a lot of gay sex going on there? Is it hot?
Gay priests and monks
|by Anonymous||reply 305||12/28/2015|
If you're in NYC, head over to St. Francis of Assisi Church by Penn Station for your answer.
|by Anonymous||reply 1||01/01/2011|
I think its gone blasting way up into the priest's poonana.
|by Anonymous||reply 7||01/01/2011|
I do have a huge dick r5, but I wouldn't touch that old homophobe closet case with my 9 inch pole
|by Anonymous||reply 8||01/01/2011|
[quote]their vows of chastity %0D %0D Priests who belong to orders (Franciscans, Jesuits, etc.) take vows. But what about diocesan priests? What vows do they take? Or do they just sign some type of contract?
|by Anonymous||reply 11||01/01/2011|
Remember asking the same question of a young, hot assistant pastor in my hometown church when I was 12. His answer, which I didn't understand the subtleties of at the time, was that, "I took a vow of celibacy, not of chastity." My sister, an ex-nun, rather scornfully said that one was understood to be the other. Apparently, that was not the case in his seminary. Ironically, she is now a militiant out lesbiean, and he is still a diocescan priest. Go figure!
|by Anonymous||reply 12||01/01/2011|
|by Anonymous||reply 13||01/02/2011|
Some European monasteries have hostels. Has anyone here stayed at one of them?
|by Anonymous||reply 14||01/11/2011|
[quote]"I took a vow of celibacy, not of chastity." My sister, an ex-nun, rather scornfully said that one was understood to be the other.
Well, chastity outside of marriage is not allowed (or 'sinful') for anyone that follows the church teachings anyway, so prohibiting sex outside of marriage would be redundant. Of course, that's all theory.
|by Anonymous||reply 15||01/11/2011|
I had a housemate that was in the seminary studying to be a priest. He said he suspected there would be at least some homosex dalliances going on there, but when he finally realized the extant of the gay sex going on, there he was shocked... and did some dallying himself. He left the seminary & decided not to become a priest, but for years after an ancient, bald priest he knew from there would come around to our house looking to get him to a hotel for some action. Priests are hideous horndogs.
|by Anonymous||reply 16||01/11/2011|
I dated a priest once. He was a good-looking preppy guy who told me he was a teacher at a local Catholic university. He didn't tell me initially he was a priest, but it came out soon enough, as he talked about all things Catholic a lot. While we were dating, he told me lots of stories about all the gay sex in the seminary and amongst other priests when he would go to visit other cities. I soon discovered he was a manipulative liar who was wildly promiscuous. I was young when we dated and I swore off sex for a while after him.
|by Anonymous||reply 17||01/11/2011|
The guy I worked with used to live next door to an RC priest who was in charge of the church's charity finances. He's now in prison for embezzlement, but not molestation. He used the money to fund a Rolls Royce lifestyle. The noise from the boys in his spa pool kept the neighbours awake. Inside (I visited when he sold it to move into a bigger place and you could tour it) it resembled a gay sauna...if a gay sauna catered for nine year old asian boys. You entered through a long conservatory which opened to a large covered courtyard, the centrepiece of which was a spa pool with statues of cherubs at its corners. This led to bedrooms, in each of which was a picture of the Pope, and a pair of boy's asian sandals by the bed. You couldn't make it up!
|by Anonymous||reply 18||01/11/2011|
Diocesan priests don't take a vow of poverty. I knew one who owned two businesses, but they do promise to be not to suck or fuck. The RC priest who became an Episcopalian and now has a talk show was outed when photographed on the beach with the girlfriend he eventually married.
|by Anonymous||reply 19||09/14/2011|
Cass Bono broke his vow of Chasity.
|by Anonymous||reply 20||09/14/2011|
Ask channel 7 nyc news anchor Ken Rosato
|by Anonymous||reply 21||09/14/2011|
If Lawrence Beck, the Passionist, isn't gay I'll turn in my card.
|by Anonymous||reply 22||09/14/2011|
i used to have a priest friend that had the biggest dick and i would go over several times a month and have great sex with him but he moved away i wish i could find another with a big dick around lafayette louisiana if any one knows any in my area please email me email@example.com
|by Anonymous||reply 23||11/26/2012|
Vanilla-fucking a flight attendant
Kinkier-fucking a cop
Kinkiest-fucking a priest
|by Anonymous||reply 26||11/29/2012|
I skipped over the Vanilla option.
|by Anonymous||reply 27||12/01/2012|
I dated a seminarian and we made out in the bell tower of the large seminary chapel at night. Most of the seminarians were gay and accustomed to such "visits." This was an archdiocesan seminary, but I also knew gay (out and wild) Jesuits, Marianists, and Franciscans. The head of the Franciscan Friary here was rather horrid - he would take money from the order and the parish the friary was at and pay for his boyfriends' apartments and travel, including outside the country.
My seminarian boyfriend left soon after, and ended up being a confused and dishonest ass. He married, then divorced and lived a gay life with a partner, but always was dishonest in it. Many years later a masseur I knew was talking about a trick in from out of town and it turned out to be my ex-love.
I had one priest, principal of a large, private boys' high school, ask for me to be his boyfriend. He was willing to hire me as a teacher. I said, "No."
|by Anonymous||reply 28||12/01/2012|
I met a priest who was a major piss pig. Loved to lie in a freestanding bathtub and be surrounded by naked men pissing on him.
No vows broken there, as he didn't actually have sex with anyone else.
|by Anonymous||reply 30||12/01/2012|
my cousin is in catholic seminary to become a priest. i think he is 2nd year now. he's always been quiet and shy. I am gay. Do i think he is gay? yes. i asked him about masturbation and he said "no way." he comes from a very conservative, traditional and religious side of my mothers family. i personally could never suppress who i was that would not be living. the torture and pain. for what? free room and board and travel. by the way, his father is wealthy but also a big homophobe. i hope he comes out when his dad dies. i also have dated ex seminarians and ex mormons.
|by Anonymous||reply 31||12/02/2012|
Years ago a friend's bf was a guy who attended a seminary in NY state. He did not complete vows. He told me that there was so much sex going on there that it actually drove him out, since he wasn't ready to come to terms with himself.
|by Anonymous||reply 32||12/02/2012|
[R21] Ken Rosato seems so gay that he makes Liberace seem straight! He's supposedly married so I guess that makes him straight.......
|by Anonymous||reply 33||12/02/2012|
Here's a mindfuck for you. Some Greek Rite churches report up to Pope Benedict, and yet allow priests to marry. And yet that fucker who presides over married priests in one section, has the nerve to forbid to his Roman Catholic section to marry.
|by Anonymous||reply 34||12/02/2012|
What's the deal with Rosato?
He was ordained a Catholic priest in 2001 and was appointed pastor of a church in Hollywood, Florida. From 1998-2002 he worked for WFOR-TV in South Florida. How did he get the priest/pastor job while working as a reporter?
Was he the boytoy of the Bishop of Miami? The whole thing seems bizarre.
|by Anonymous||reply 35||12/02/2012|
Here's the lowdown on the Catholic Rite churches who report to the pope but who have non-celibate parish priests. And yet they are allowed to perform any Catholic functions in an RC church. So according to the whole Roman Curia hierarchy, it's okay for Romanian Catholic priests to get married, but not for American priests unless they are part of the Romanian Catholic church.
It obviously means that you can't serve as pope if actually have sincere beliefs on this issue: you have to hold two opposing beliefs simeultaneously.
|by Anonymous||reply 36||12/02/2012|
Just found more info on Rosato. He wasn't ordained in the Roman Catholic Church.
He was ordained in the Catholic Apostolic Church in North America, an independent Catholic movement with its roots in 1940s Brazil.
Rosato didn't go to any seminary; he participated in an online learning program with Sanctus Theological Institute.
|by Anonymous||reply 37||12/02/2012|
Rosato's parish, where he was pastor, had 20 members with a chapel in Hollywood, FL.
|by Anonymous||reply 38||12/02/2012|
Rosato always gives me the creeps. Now he seems creepier.
|by Anonymous||reply 39||12/02/2012|
Tell your ex-nun sister to call me!
|by Anonymous||reply 40||12/02/2012|
Remember when this Louisiana priest got busted hanging out shirtless at Mardi Gras?
|by Anonymous||reply 41||12/02/2012|
Give her my email address firstname.lastname@example.org
|by Anonymous||reply 42||12/02/2012|
|by Anonymous||reply 43||12/03/2012|
I understand that the Monk's are extremely sado-maso.
|by Anonymous||reply 44||12/03/2012|
r33, who told you Ken Rosato is married?
|by Anonymous||reply 45||12/03/2012|
Chastity? I thought it was charity and I've been giving it away all these years!
|by Anonymous||reply 46||12/03/2012|
I know someone who got a blow job from a priest in a confessional in Rome.
|by Anonymous||reply 47||12/03/2012|
This thread is useless without, well, you know.
|by Anonymous||reply 48||12/03/2012|
|by Anonymous||reply 49||12/03/2012|
The unwritten rule is that you can have sex, but not within the diocese.
|by Anonymous||reply 50||12/03/2012|
|by Anonymous||reply 51||12/03/2012|
Order of Friars Minor, the Franciscans.
|by Anonymous||reply 54||12/03/2012|
[quote]is known by me, my friend his bf and others I'm sure to get on his knees to open his ass for humongous dicks
I guess if you only do it with humongous dicks, you can rationalize it as "research" or "scientific experimentation" rather than sex.
|by Anonymous||reply 55||12/03/2012|
Tom Cruise wanted to be a priest....
|by Anonymous||reply 56||12/03/2012|
I didn't know Scientology had priests.
|by Anonymous||reply 57||12/03/2012|
before he got into scientology...back when he was a "wrestler" in high school.
|by Anonymous||reply 58||12/03/2012|
OK, yes, I am disgusted by the shameful hypocrisy of the Catholic Church.
But I have to say I find this thread HOT!
|by Anonymous||reply 60||12/04/2012|
Wow! Great story R59
|by Anonymous||reply 61||01/20/2013|
Let's hear more stories.
|by Anonymous||reply 62||01/22/2013|
Can't you stay at monastaries for retreats?
|by Anonymous||reply 63||01/22/2013|
|by Anonymous||reply 64||01/22/2013|
Chastity and Charity are the sisters of a boy I fucked.
|by Anonymous||reply 65||01/22/2013|
as a bi/gay younger married man with a child, i would love to meet a real gay priest 20s-30s who is looking for someone to know and love deeply, but not feel threatened. is there a way to make contact with bi or gay priests, without putting them or me in danger of exposure?
|by Anonymous||reply 66||11/07/2013|
Attend a Catholic university, R66. Most of the lower level divinity studies feature Brothers as instructors.
On two different occasions brothers informed me that their status didn't carry the same baggage as that of a priest. I was oblivious at the time because I figured they were holy men.
|by Anonymous||reply 67||11/07/2013|
|by Anonymous||reply 69||08/31/2014|
Had a bf who was a priest and got pretty far up--even worked in Rome for a while. Yes, lots of sex.
Family was more heartbroken that he left the priesthood than his revealing he was gay.
|by Anonymous||reply 70||08/31/2014|
No Boston priests out here?
|by Anonymous||reply 71||08/31/2014|
Gay priest is repetitive
|by Anonymous||reply 72||10/13/2014|
Sign up for a retreat at a monastery for a good time.
|by Anonymous||reply 73||10/14/2014|
What monasteries are the most fun?
|by Anonymous||reply 74||10/26/2014|
I know a guy who is in his 60s. He was a seminarian in the 70s at a monastery in DC. He said that several other seminarians were gay. He said one of the priests who was a supervisor was gay and had a lover who hung out at the monastery.
|by Anonymous||reply 75||10/26/2014|
What order was he in?
|by Anonymous||reply 76||10/26/2014|
DisGUSTING thread! Anathema! The Power of Christ COMPELS you!!!!!
|by Anonymous||reply 77||10/26/2014|
Gay for a day
|by Anonymous||reply 78||10/26/2014|
[quote]He was a seminarian in the 70s at a monastery in DC. He said that several other seminarians were gay. He said one of the priests who was a supervisor was gay and had a lover who hung out at the monastery.
Was it the Franciscan Monastery on Quincy Steet?
|by Anonymous||reply 79||10/26/2014|
Had an Episcopal priest friend who was in a relationship with a Catholic priest. I've had sex with several Episcopal priests who were very hot. This was before it was "legal."
|by Anonymous||reply 80||10/26/2014|
[quote]I've had sex with several Episcopal priests who were very hot.
Do you first meet them by going to their church or do you meet them out in the town?
|by Anonymous||reply 81||10/27/2014|
R79 I grew up by that Monastery on Quincy Street but moved away before I came out.
Tell me some stories!!
|by Anonymous||reply 82||10/27/2014|
When you meet them through CL, they usually say that they're teachers.
|by Anonymous||reply 83||10/28/2014|
I used to visit with a friar who played the organ at the Franciscan Monastery in DC.
|by Anonymous||reply 84||10/30/2014|
It was known in church circles that Brooklyn Bishop Francis Mugavero, who permitted Dignity masses, was gay. His partner was a priest. Shortly before his retirement, "Mugs" was forced by Archbishop John Cardinal O'Connor to eject Dignity.
|by Anonymous||reply 85||10/30/2014|
Maybe I should become Catholic and be a guest in monsateries so I can get all that action.
|by Anonymous||reply 86||10/30/2014|
I don't care what the church says, most priests and monks are gay. If they are not, they are motivated to join the clergy out of some fucked up personality issue.
|by Anonymous||reply 87||10/30/2014|
Monastic hostels sounds like a great place to get some sex. Can anyone reccomend the best places?
|by Anonymous||reply 88||10/30/2014|
Im not looking for sex.Im seeking help form other like minded men. I want to find a real place to find wisdom peace a monk like setting can any one help............................nm
|by Anonymous||reply 89||02/05/2015|
When I was in my early 20s, I got a job working on a college campus in my home town in Minnesota. I come from a very catholic background and so during my time there I became involved in the catholic chaplaincy on campus. The chaplaincy was headed by a very attractive and fresh from the seminary priest. I had only really just admitted to myself that I was gay and was still very closeted. I got to know the priest well and we struck up a friendship. One day I broke down and told him I was gay and his response was surprisingly positive for a young priest with pretty conservative views. Our friendship continued to develop and we spent a good deal of time with each other. Our conversations eventually turned towards sex as we were both effectively virgins. He did have a serious girlfriend before entering the seminary but they had never slept together. He admitted in the seminary he had gotten a hand job from a fellow student but that was the extent of it. One topic he began to focus on more and more was jerking off. He claimed he rarely did it and he would often have ‘wet dreams’ every few weeks. He was both appalled and intrigued when I told him I usually jerked a couple times a day. One evening he wanted to see the material I used to jerk and I pulled up a porn site and we began to watch. It wasn’t long before we had each other’s cocks in our hands. After we finished he stormed out in a hurry and our friendship effectively ended. Randomly a few months ago I got a facebook friend request from him. He’s still working at the campus but has gained a strong following on social media and in catholic circles around the country. We have been chatting but its been purely non-sexual chats. I think he is one of a small group of priests who take their vows super seriously.
|by Anonymous||reply 90||06/17/2015|
When I was a young man, I wanted to be a priest. This didn't stop me from being a whore and a porn addict, but I did feel guilty about it. My best friend, who was basically a fuck buddy, and I lost contact because I started taking the celibacy stuff super seriously. I still miss him terribly(I think I've mentioned him in other posts).
I was going to go to the local seminary, St. Charles Borromeo, but I was dissuaded when a straight friend of mine who worked there as a janitor said that the sheets on the beds in many(not all) rooms where so sticky from cum that they often had to just replace the sheets rather than wash them, because they were so messed up. He said that the gay presence there was so strong that he thought of it as a gay resort.
Now, of course, this turned me on, but I was trying so hard to repress my sexuality that I decided I'd join the Franciscans who ran my high school. That same summer, a priest there was found dead because he hung himself. The story the other priests told was that he was performing a martial arts stunt(this priest taught judo, and had black belts in all of the martial arts), but it came out pretty quickly that he actually died from auto erotic asphyxiation, and that he was wearing leather and had gay porn mags spread all over his room. So, that was it for me and the orders of Friars Minor.
Later, I sought out an ultra conservative order. I will say that most of these men, to the best of my knowledge, kept their vows, but there was one priest who had another priest as his constant companion, and both pinged to high heaven(one had a lisp, was a hairdresser before he entered religion, and was always arranging the flowers around the Church).
They were very nice men, and weren't predators, but they shared the same living space and I have no doubt they were lovers. In fact, they are both now in another city, and by a stroke of luck, they both happened to be assigned to the same parish again. As church lady would say, "HOW CONVENIEEENT!".
So I came to the conclusion that the priesthood seemed to be more of a cover for men who didn't want to marry, and this was a convenient way to do so without being called names by their homophobic families. I gave up my pursuit of the religious life, but still tried to live up to the rigid rules of the Catholic Church. But I just couldn't. And it's only in the last few years that I've accepted my gayness, and am not ashamed of it. I still believe in God, and I think He made me this way. Who am I to argue with the Almighty?
Meanwhile, I'm looking into Anglo-Catholicism or something less rigid(I need liturgy; bare Protestantism and touchy feely services do nothing for me). Pope Francis gives me no hope at all, because he's just another poseur who wants to be loved and will say anything to do so. I'd rather have an honest guy who believes what he says, even if he's wrong about it.
|by Anonymous||reply 91||06/17/2015|
[R91] 'the sheets on the beds in many(not all) rooms where so sticky from cum that they often had to just replace the sheets rather than wash them, because they were so messed up.'
When I was in my late teens our parish got a new priest he was 35(ish), tall, blonde, blue eyes, and a butt that looked like it was going to rip though those black pants - anyways - he was super nice and one day I ended up coming out to him. He gave me the old 'being gay isn't a sin but acting on it is.' I remember him very clearly saying that 'we all struggle with same-sex attraction' which now I view as his way of saying he was gay. He 'instructed' me that I should lead a chaste life. Easier sad then done for a horny 18 year old but for a few years I attempted to do just that. I think from about 18 to 20 I didn't engage in any sexual act and trust me every couple of weeks I'd wake up with very messy sheets.
I remember I had gone away to college and when I came home to visit I remember the priest and I went out for coffee and he asked me how I was doing with my 'vow' and I told him about my situation and his response was 'I sometimes have to peel the sheets off of me.' I think I went home and jerked after that LOL!
|by Anonymous||reply 92||06/18/2015|
Funny and hot story, R92. Just as an addendum to my last long rant: the principal of the high school I attended(the same place where the priest died while trying to get off) was arrested for stealing funds from the school and using it to pay off boys he was fucking. One of them committed suicide. It's still so hard for me to believe that the Church that I always thought was so holy is really run by a mafia of vicious people who are into harming others and filling their own coffers with the hard earned money of the people they've duped.
In fact, I think it probably belongs in the conspiracy's that are true thread that the Catholic Church really is a criminal enterprise that shields sex criminals. Perhaps the 19th century Maria Monk wasn't as crazy as most people believed her to be.
|by Anonymous||reply 93||06/18/2015|
[R93] The Catholic church is the master organization of sweeping things under the rug and then when something becomes public they play the 'we had no idea, it was only a small number of people etc etc.'
My home town has a pretty large seminary. A few years back a story broke about a number of students who were raped by their fellow seminarians over the course of the 1990s and into the 2000s. The reaction of officials at the seminary was always the same, the victim would be given some hush money and would quietly leave the seminary while the students who took part a rape were not punished. When the story broke the diocese denied any knowledge of the events and blamed everything solely on the bishop running the seminary during that time. No one is convinced that the church knew nothing since the pay off money was funneled in from the diocese.
The church is having a huge problem attracting men to the priesthood now and the young men who do enter are very conservative in their views which is going to pose a major problem for the church's survival in the western world. IF the Catholic Church is to survive, it needs to start changing its tune on: gays, women and celibacy. Pope Francis is a joke too. He knows how to make very positive and progressive soundbites but in reality he's just as conservative as JPII and the Star Wars Evil Emperor look alike Benedict XVI (by the way Benny was a big old Queen everyone knows it).
|by Anonymous||reply 94||06/18/2015|
I'll try to keep this brief:
In the early 2000s I attended St. Augustine’s Seminary in Toronto and it was an unusual experience to say the least. I was in my 20s at the time, one of the younger men there, and besides a few solo jerk-off sessions, I was a total virgin. I knew I was gay but at the time I preferred the term same sex attracted and refused to act on my disordered attractions. After entering the seminary, I very quickly discovered that the atmosphere was defiantly homoerotic and not just in your college frat boy kind of way, there was a sexualized layer of interaction between many of us seminarians. It wasn’t a rare thing to walk into the washroom and see jizz on the floor or walls, particularly in the morning. Since we lived in shared rooms, no one wanted to get caught jerking off there. I was also very surprised by the party atmosphere in the residence. Friday nights could get very wild with booze flowing freely and music blasting. At these parties many of the men would begin touching, and dancing suggestively even the guys who I would identify as being straight. The odd thing is the administration would never attempt to curtail this behavior we were told that loud parties and drinking were forbidden on campus yet when these parties happened there would be a strategy of looking the other way.
After a ‘lowering of my strong Catholic morals’ I began to take part in these parties. In particular I would go because one of the main party organizers was a very attractive man, whom I won’t name because he is now an active priest, was always trying to persuade me to attend. He was tall, olive skin, piercing blue eyes, scruff, a lean/muscular build and an amazing smile. He would often get on top of the pool table and start dancing with his shirt unbuttoned, holding a beer in hand with a cigarette dangling out of his mouth which I don’t recall him ever lighting. At one party after a couple of beers, he invited me up onto the pool table with him where we began to dance together. We were being encouraged by the guys watching us and the raunchier the moves the more encouragement we would get. At one point he leaned into me pressing himself into me and I could feel is hard dick pressing against my thigh, it was the first time I had ever felt another man before and I could tell by the look on his face he knew it and he got significant pleasure from it. I remember him putting his hand on my ass and putting his lips to my ear whispered ‘I’m going to fuck you tonight.’ He got his way in an empty common room that night in case you’re wondering ;)
After that incident I limped through another semester at the seminary but the devotion I had to the church was waning. The irony is being in the seminary began my journey to accepting being gay. It was when all the sex scandals broke and the church attempted to blame gay priests I just couldn’t take it and I left. I no longer attend church and lead a very happy secular life.
I know the seminary has changed a bit since I left. The church now deeply probes (no pun intended) candidates sexual backgrounds and orientations to try and weed out gay men. When I joined the only sexual question I was asked was had I been chaste for two years prior to my application.
|by Anonymous||reply 95||06/19/2015|
[R95] Hot story!!!!
|by Anonymous||reply 96||06/21/2015|
There's a lot of homoeroticism in the seminaries. Most seek out large cities to play. When I moved to NYC to attend college, I met a guy at a bar who was really into Asians, but decided to give me a try. When we went to his place, there were crucifixes everywhere, they covered the walls! I got a little concerned. I asked him about it, to which he replied that he is a priest. We talked, he then told me his mother wanted him to be a priest so bad, she didn't care about him having sex. That was how he reconciled his behavior, and also said those in the diocese knew as well. He was pretty hot: blond, blue eyed, nice hairy chest, in shape, pretty creative in bed.
Another guy I knew was renting a place from a very religious Italian woman. She used to have her priest over all the time. One day, the priest was there when he came home. The landlady introduced the two, stepped away, and the two exchanged numbers. They had a hard time hooking up because he wasn't Catholic, and the landlady might ask questions. The priest couldn't host, because all the priests at the rectory were gay, and those with seniority got to have first dibs on having their boyfriends spend the night.
I'm from a small town, and all the priests in the area are gay, the only ones who bought the gay porn mags. The only gay seminary student I know who didn't have sex while studying was someone who wasn't out to himself yet, now looks back with regret, as he was the new student and everyone was hitting on him.
|by Anonymous||reply 97||06/22/2015|
R95 When I went to the University of Toronto back in 2001 to 2005, we used to refer to St. Augustine’s as the Semenary.
I grew up catholic and our parish church was a large one so we'd have a revolving door of priests coming (no pun intended) and going. Looking back I would say looking back two of them were definitely flamers. The most interesting priest we ever had though was a raging alcoholic. I remember him slurring through his homilies sometimes.
I've never been involved with a catholic priest but I did date an anglican priest for a number of years. He was actually the kinkiest lover I've ever had LOL.
|by Anonymous||reply 98||06/22/2015|
I wonder what the seminaries are like today? Men entering the priesthood is a major decline so I can't see a seminary having large numbers of students anymore. I would suspect those entering are largely straight whereas a large number of priests over the age of 40 are gay or closeted.
|by Anonymous||reply 99||06/22/2015|
R99 For the last decade church policy is to basically deny entry into the seminary any man who admits to having sex with or very strong sexual attractions to men. When you apply to enter the seminary now they supposedly ask you very detailed questions about your sexual history (if any) in order to calculate if they feel you can commit to celibacy.
Homosexuality within the church and the church's attitude towards it is a ticking time bomb. If the church is to survive in the western world it's going to have to start getting more progressive problem is those entering the priesthood tend to be more and more conservative. It's a recipe for disaster.
|by Anonymous||reply 100||06/23/2015|
One another anecdote: I remember going to confession after a really wild sex session, and was expecting to get really scolded by the priest. His spiritual comfort to me was "Thank God for your sexual energy!". Surprised he didn't ask for my phone number.
|by Anonymous||reply 101||06/23/2015|
The unwritten rule for Priests - Whatever you do, don't do it in your own diocese."
I knew a Newark priest who spent every Saturday night in New York's St. Mark's Baths.
|by Anonymous||reply 102||06/23/2015|
I did it with one of the brothers at Cullman, Alabama. Beat that bitches.
|by Anonymous||reply 103||06/23/2015|
A friend of mine is a gay priest. He got ratted-out to the Bishop, and has been on double secret probation ever since. Probably permanently. He's a nice guy, but he's very human, with all the flaws that entails. He is smoking hot, though I think he might be just over 40 now. If you get defrocked, they leave you with nothing for decades of service. No pension, no 401k, nothing. Literally nothing as a financial cushion for giving the best years of your life.
|by Anonymous||reply 105||06/23/2015|
So... I'm talking to this guy and he tells me that he recently met this "young, sexy priest" at the Palm Springs White Party... He wanted a threesome with him and his boyfriend, but the boyfriend was weirded out... He then proceeds to show me a pic and whoa indeed... Guy in early 30s, very nicely formed pecs and abs, very tan in Unico underwear... Quite a shock...
So, armed with the very basic information I had been given, I sleuthed around and found the guy, googled his name and found pics of the same guy in clerics and Roman collar...
I had aspired to the priesthood at one point in my life myself, and I am about his same age, so I made some inquiries in circles who he and I might have in common and might know more... What is a Catholic to do? I asked a good friend of mine, young bisexual guy who is currently at the local diocesan seminary (but who is celibate) and he point blank told me there would be no point in outing the guy because he most likely is banging his Bishop and we would look like fools if we report his ass...
So, the hypocrisy must continue...
I wish I could show you all his pic in speedos at White Party side by side to his pic in Roman collar and see your faces all drop, but this kid has really done nothing evil to me (other than the evil of hypocrisy on gays as a whole) and I could RUIN his life (his Bishop might not give a fuck, but his parishioners might turn up their nose if they found out what good sweet young Father Pecs does in his free time).
Diocese of Charleston... That's all I will say...
|by Anonymous||reply 106||06/30/2015|
I am sorry to hear that anyone would consider outing a priest under any circumstances. Let your priest be a fully human, human being. He is NOT setting church policy and has as much trouble conforming to it as you do. Would you want someone calling your boss and telling him what you've been doing? Or your parents, or spouse? Mind your own business. The topic is repugnant.
|by Anonymous||reply 107||06/30/2015|
Miss Nancy Drew at R106, be a sweetheart and give us the priest's initials and race.
|by Anonymous||reply 108||07/01/2015|
R107 sees no duplicity in being a priest and an active gay man...
Let them be "fully human", he cries out...(Incidentally, that sounds a lot like what the hierarchy said in the sexual abuse crisis... Maybe R107 is a bishop lol)
My employer does not make statements that brand gays as "intrinsically disordered"...
If my employers did, I would be faced with a choice of quitting or standing behind them... If I stood behind them, then I would have to modify my behavior... Going to White Party is having your cake and eating too...
So, how about Father Pecs presents his Indult of Laicization next time he's booking his flight to the next circuit party...
|by Anonymous||reply 109||07/01/2015|
R108... Giving his initials would be fully outing his ass... I have decided not to, but not for the reasons R107 expounds, who is either (a) not a Catholic, or (b) a poorly trained Catholic who has no understanding of what the sacrament of Holy Orders means, and equates it to a mere bond of employment to the Church... In either case, I'd be happy to educate him...
|by Anonymous||reply 110||07/01/2015|
I used to hook up with a guy in Boston. The apartment above him was owned by a priest who, unbeknownst to his order, would use the place as a place to bring home tricks and where he'd host meth orgies. The guy was in his 50s at least but his place was always hopping.
I think the priesthood is just a job for most guys.
|by Anonymous||reply 111||07/01/2015|
I have been seriously considering putting a black blotch over the face in his two pics: (1) the pic of the pecs and abs (which kinda would make Kellan Lutz eat his heart out), and (2) the pic in clerics/ Roman collar... I am gauging how likely it is for him to be outed that way, because I DON'T want him outed by my hand... Just for shits and giggles...
|by Anonymous||reply 112||07/01/2015|
R112 I doubt there's enough people on this board who'd recognize him and out him. I know your feeling on outing him though. I was once somewhat involved with a priest a couple years ago and he is now becoming fairly visible within the church in the US and has something of strong social media presence. If I were to 'sound the alarm bell' not only would it possibly ruin his standing, I would actually be worried about his mental health. Being a priest is more than just sitting at a desk from 9 to 5, it's a massive part of who you are and destroying that could very well destroy the person.
|by Anonymous||reply 113||07/06/2015|
Please.. if all priests looked like this, HECK YES!
|by Anonymous||reply 114||07/06/2015|
YAS GET IT
|by Anonymous||reply 115||07/06/2015|
Can I join?
|by Anonymous||reply 116||07/06/2015|
Ride that dick
|by Anonymous||reply 117||07/06/2015|
R177 R176 etc. What are those gifs from? Im so aroused right now.
|by Anonymous||reply 118||07/06/2015|
Me too, R188! What are they from? As if this thread weren't hot enough! Fuck.
I live in NYC. Where can I go today to have sex with a really hot priest? I'm serious.
|by Anonymous||reply 119||07/06/2015|
[quote] The unwritten rule for Priests - Whatever you do, don't do it in your own diocese."
Are you kidding? Just not true - the pedophiles were praying on their own parishioners.
|by Anonymous||reply 120||07/06/2015|
R120 totally true! If you look at straight priests who end up having affairs or leave the priesthood all together to get married it's typically with a woman who was a member of their congregation.
|by Anonymous||reply 121||07/06/2015|
|by Anonymous||reply 122||07/06/2015|
R113 Is your guy a fairly liberal priest - say, a Jesuit? Or, is he a voice for traditionalism fags-are-evil kinda priest? If the latter, I say he needs to be deflated...
The guy I'm talking about is a cute-ish worked-out 34 y-o nobody parish priest who has no real public ministry... Your case, however, sounds different... It sounds like you may have an OBLIGATION to out, if bigotry is being fuelled hypocritically... My outing would be a little cruel because - although his behavior is duplicitous - it may be purely salacious to reveal...
If you have a Catholic Ted Haggard in your hands, I say OUT...
|by Anonymous||reply 123||07/06/2015|
R123 He's not a jesuit nor is he a fire and brimstone gay hating conservative. I guess I would describe him as a moderate certainly far more socially progressive than anything coming out of the Vatican. When his state legalized same-sex marriage his response was that this was a civil matter and that gay couples should have the same rights and protection as heterosexual couples but the religious vocation of marriage remains a man and a woman. He's also in favour of women becoming priests, making celibacy an option rather than a vow.
He's also active in LGBT ministries in his community and fairly open about his struggles with his own sexuality. He had a high school girlfriend whom he got engaged to but in college couldn't ignore his attraction to men and experimented a bit before entering the seminary.
|by Anonymous||reply 124||07/06/2015|
I worked briefly with a fellow whose father was a priest and mother a nun, who left their orders to marry.
|by Anonymous||reply 125||07/06/2015|
I'm curious about the monks. Priests, not so much. Anyone?
|by Anonymous||reply 126||07/06/2015|
Just become Episcopalian / Anglican all you Catholic boys. At least they are totally gay accepting and their priests are out. That has to be more psychologically healthy for everyone including their parishioners, gay and straight
|by Anonymous||reply 127||07/06/2015|
I still need to know where to go in NYC to fuck a hot priest.
|by Anonymous||reply 128||07/07/2015|
R128 just start going from church to church in NYC sit in the front row and whip your dick out in the middle of a homily.
|by Anonymous||reply 129||07/07/2015|
R124 then there's no real duplicity there, hun... It would be like outing a Democrat in the Senate... So and so is a fag, SO WHAT?
For those priests that preach shit on gays, though, while they have their dinners with a good side of dick... For them... There is no amount of Christian compassion to be reserved for them... Can I get an AMEN in here? Lol
|by Anonymous||reply 130||07/07/2015|
R130 I just don't have the heart to do it. Being a priest is his life and he's an incredible public speaker and while he isn't one of those gay hating priests, his bosses most likely are and if he were outed or came out, he'd likely be removed from his current role which deals a lot with youth....because in the catholic hierarchy if you're a gay priest you're automatically suspect of being a pedophile or something.....
I agree though that those priest who spout hate but take it up the ass on the side deserve what they get.
|by Anonymous||reply 131||07/07/2015|
R131 Care to tell us how you two got involved, especially for the benefit of our troll friend who begs to lay a priest in NYC?
Was his priesthood on the table from the start, or did you suddenly realize you'd had sex with a priest?
The guy I know cavorts around circuit parties saying he's a priest, so - if he got outed - he would have to blame himself first of all...
But your guy, is he discreet?
|by Anonymous||reply 132||07/07/2015|
R125, I was good friends with a guy whose father was a priest and his mother a nun. The father, an incredibly kind man in many ways, could not reconcile his abandonment of the priesthood with the fact that he was married and had a child. His mother was more accepting of it, but it caused a lot of problems for all involved, including my friend, who had a hard time being able to connect emotionally with people because of the strange circumstances he lived under(his father would occasionally wear a collar and say Mass, and tell his son not to reveal who he was). He eventually moved away and I haven't seen him in years, except on Facebook. I PMed him, and he either ignored it, or never saw it. I think he's trying to avoid anyone from his past who knew about his dad, because other people I know and he was friendly with have gotten the same cold shoulder. I Feel sorry for the guy, I think he was really lost both spiritually and emotionally. Hopefully now he's happier.
|by Anonymous||reply 133||07/07/2015|
R132 Well I don't know if I can help our horny troller in NYC but I met this priest through my work as a College Youth Counselor and he was active in campus ministry at the college I worked at and his office was just around the corner from me so I knew he was a priest from day one. We became friendly but it was almost a year before we did anything sexual. It was clear that beyond whole celibacy thing, he was conflicted about his own sexuality. He had a girlfriend all through high school and they briefly became engaged in college but he ended it partly because he wanted to be a priest and partly because he knew he wasn't sexually attracted to women.
I ended up breaking it off with him because it wasn't going to go anywhere and because each time after we had sex he would fall into this cloud of guilt for breaking his vow. He once said to me that the irony was he could confess having sex in the confessional and it wouldn't be an issue but if he ever acknowledged he had broken his vow to a fellow priest or bishop outside the confessional then he'd be in trouble.
I left the college a sort time after and he's become more visible and might be moving up for bigger things down the road . We're Facebook friends and we do communicate from time to time and I will always have a soft spot for him because he is genuinely a good guy ... with a very talented mouth LMAO ;)
|by Anonymous||reply 134||07/07/2015|
R134 When you say more visible do you mean he's well known like one of those priests who go on the news and defend the church or one of those social media priests trying to draw in the youth?
|by Anonymous||reply 135||07/07/2015|
I posted earlier in the thread about a guy I worked with who had former nun and priest parents. There can't be that many, so I'm wondering if this is the same family. Were they from New Jersey by any chance? The guy I knew was very geeky/nerdy.
I'm confused how his father could say mass if he's no longer a priest though.
|by Anonymous||reply 136||07/07/2015|
R136 A laicized priest saying Mass is what is known as "valid but illicit"... In Catholic theology, once a man has the sacramental mark of the priesthood, he is a priest in aeternum - meaning FOREVER... Not until death, like husband and wife, but literally FOREVER, even beyond his death... This applies whether he becomes a mass murderer or child molester...
A laicized priest has just been asked "not to use his powers", to speak simply... But, if you were dying, the most disgusting child rapist who may be in jail and has been laicized not only can hear your confession and give you your Last Rites, but may be obligated to if you really are in danger of death...
That is why, at ordination, the bishop quotes from Hebrews and says to the ordinand: "You are a priest forever in the order of Melchizedek"...
So that is how your friend's father was still saying Mass...
|by Anonymous||reply 137||07/07/2015|
Ok but mass to WHOM? No church would take him would they once his ... license has been permanently suspended. Somehow I can't see keeping such guys around as substitute priests?
|by Anonymous||reply 138||07/07/2015|
R138 Of course not to a congregation in a parish... That would be cause for "scandal", and I mean that in the canonical/theological sense... I thought you were saying he said it privately, like at home with his children.
A priest can say Mass totally alone too... Mind you, Mass is not a performance... It is not a Protestant sermon... We Catholics believe that Jesus makes an appearance, not figuratively but LITERALLY, so there is not need for an audience...
If he's been laicisized, saying Mass would be like a doctor who has had his license revoked treating his children or himself if they have an emergency... But can he ever work in an ER again, of course not...
|by Anonymous||reply 139||07/08/2015|
Yes, R133, he lived in Jersey. He was nerdy, and a bit narcissistic, but generally a good person. His father would say the old Latin Mass for small groups who were unhappy with the more modern Mass, but he would pretend his son was a nephew. He said the Masses illicitly, as R137 explained. He believed that the pastoral care these people needed was more important than Canon law. It was a strange situation for sure. He'd say Masses in chapels on farms and places like that.
|by Anonymous||reply 140||07/08/2015|
R137 and R139 here... If he was saying the Latin Mass, that makes perfect sense... Until John Paul II, who instituted an "indult", these Masses were forbidden after the Second Vatican Council. The bigots who liked it (i.e. Hutton Gibson - Mel's dad - and all the other anti-semites that didn't get the memo that put and end to hating Jews) had to pretty much do it in secret.
|by Anonymous||reply 141||07/08/2015|
Blah blah blah, all this rigormorale about defrocking and last rites and prison and eternity, like any of it means anything in reality. Just tell me where I can get some clergical-robe-and-collar Grade A fuckin Catholic DICK!
|by Anonymous||reply 142||07/08/2015|
R142 True... We've been digressing... Back to talking about gay priests, everyone.
|by Anonymous||reply 143||07/08/2015|
R141, not everyone who prefers the old Mass is a bigot. In England in the 1970's, great writers and artists such as Sir Robert Graves, Graham Greene, Agatha Christie, Kenneth Clarke, Compton Mackenzie and many others sent a plea to Paul VI to continue to allow the old Mass because of its great artistic and cultural significance. Some of the greatest music in the history of Western Civilization was written for that Mass. It's a shame that the hardliners hijacked it and turned it into a left vs. right issue rather than a cultural one. Many gays prefer the old Mass. The Anglo-Catholic parishes of the Episcopalian Church that use a variant of the old Roman rite are full of gay parishioners and priests who are out.
|by Anonymous||reply 144||07/08/2015|
I didn't know Agatha Christie was Catholic?
To clinch the deal R140, the kid would now be in his mid-40s or so. If so we're absolutely talking about the same fellow.
High Episcopalian churches are magnets for gays who thrive on all that drama.
|by Anonymous||reply 145||07/08/2015|
R135 he has a strong social media presence.
|by Anonymous||reply 146||07/08/2015|
R145, I work and have worked in the High Episcopalin church for over a decade and it is indeed gayer than Woody's disco on a Saturday night.
|by Anonymous||reply 147||07/08/2015|
My brother dated (briefly) a guy who was very involved with all things Catholic. This guy had dated a Pole (pun intended or not, you decide) who was in the seminary. After they broke up he wrote a letter to this guy's church in Poland, the Pole was kicked out of the seminary program. My brother hated dating this guy, who was very conflicted about his homosexuality and basically treated him like a whore.
Other than that, I was once invited at a gathering among the Catholic Emmanuel group (if this rings a bell to anyone), and they seriously looked deranged / crazy, all of them. Total waste of my time.
|by Anonymous||reply 148||07/08/2015|
My roommate in college was very Catholic and was thinking of becoming a priest. He was also a desperate closet case when I used to tell him about my sexual escapades with other men he'd be all horrified and then as I told him more graphic details I could clearly tell he was turned on. I caught him once watching gay porn and we ended up having sex and let me tell you that little catholic boy was one dirty slut in the sack.
|by Anonymous||reply 149||07/08/2015|
R144 Yeah, of course, not EVERYone... It's like saying not ALL Republicans are racist, but if you are a racist, chances are you are a Republican...
I have myself gone to Latin Mass at Holy Innocents, St Agnes and Our Saviour in Manhattan, but you can't deny that the nuts that want to keep the Church anti-Semitic, to say that anyone who is not Catholic is going to Hell (extra ecclesiam nulla salus), to keep women even more marginalized in the worship than they currently are - that THOSE nuts have a tendency to prefer the priest facing the wall, going all Lady Gaga in the funny language and bowing and genuflecting hither and thither like it was some darn gymnastics display...
We could debate a lot about Lefevre and SSPX, but we would ruin this thread which is about actively gay priests !
|by Anonymous||reply 150||07/08/2015|
I would love to fuck around with a priest. Any cute men of the cloth reading this thread wanna hook up ;)
|by Anonymous||reply 151||07/08/2015|
R145, Agatha wasn't Catholic, and neither were most of the British writers/artists who wrote the petition to Paul VI. The only name on the long list that I know for sure was Catholic at the time was Graham Greene, and even he was in his doubting the Church phase at this time. They just felt that the ancient Latin Mass was of importance to civilization and believed it should be continued, side by side with the new missal.
And it seems like there's no question that we're talking about the same guy. I wish there was some kind of PM on DL so we could 100% confirm it.
|by Anonymous||reply 152||07/08/2015|
R150, a lot of the reason that the Latin Mass attracted nutcases was because it was denied outright to everyone with no explanation. That drew out the crazy conspiracy theorists and wackjobs, but if the old Mass went on alongside the new, there would have been no real issue, and the wackos would have found something else to complain about.
And, for the record, the priest I knew even called some of the people he said Mass for "kooks", but he mainly did it for the pious old ladies who wouldn't harm a fly and just wanted the Mass they grew up with.
|by Anonymous||reply 153||07/08/2015|
R147, when you mentioned Woody's I couldn't help but think you're from Philly. Are you perhaps affiliated with St. Clement's on Cherry Street? The Liturgy is more Catholic than the Pope, but it is indeed a hotbed of gay intrigue.
|by Anonymous||reply 154||07/08/2015|
Can we discuss married evangelical pastors who are closeted homosexuals? Or is that a topic for a different thread?
|by Anonymous||reply 155||07/08/2015|
R134 hey watch college did you work at? Just curious because the priest who works at my college is so hot a kind of Jon Hamm lookalike and has his own youtube channel and there have been rumors about him.
|by Anonymous||reply 156||07/08/2015|
R134 and R156... If y'all are talking about Father Mike Schmitz, I will just die... And R134 would be saying that Father Mike even gives good blowjobs? I JUST CAN'T...
|by Anonymous||reply 157||07/08/2015|
R157, R134, R156, I just googled Father Mike Schmitz and um if it's him.........where do I sign up?!!!!!!!!!!!!
|by Anonymous||reply 158||07/08/2015|
R157 I've seen Fr. Schmitz on youtube --- yes, he's a looker and if I had a priest who looked like him when I was growing up, I would have been at church constantly. He comes across as a charming, charismatic, friendly guy from Minnesota but if you watch his talk on the theology of the body he's extremely indoctrinated with JPII and Benny XVI's ultraconservative views on sexuality, contraception and chastity. I'll give him credit for being more 'generous' about homosexuality than some priests but he still follows the company line. I honestly don't think he's the one they're talking about. He seems so into the church's teaching that he who would have a mental breakdown if he even touched himself.
BTW he is what you'd call a Liturgy Queen. A liturgy queen is a priest who is likely a repressed homosexual who as an outlet treats and performs the sacraments and traditions of the catholic church like they're a broadway show. His vestments have to be just so, the altar linens have to look a certain way and everything has to be perfect, perfect, perfect, big, big, big...SPARKLE. Anyone who grew up catholic and was involved in church lives knows what I'm talking about ;)
|by Anonymous||reply 159||07/08/2015|
R159 Liturgy Queen LMAO!!!!!!!! I've never heard that one before but I can just picture the type of priest you mean ;)
|by Anonymous||reply 160||07/09/2015|
R134 needs to step in, DENY and say "No, Father Mike is not the blowjob talent I'm talking about"...
Otherwise, the Jon Hamm reference is going to mislead us all, this is going to spiral out of control, and some closet Catholic twink in his youth group is going to ask him: "Father, people are saying you are good at playing wind instruments... wink, wink" If it's not him, he's going to scratch his head and be like WTF...
|by Anonymous||reply 161||07/09/2015|
R161 I agree if R134 is here you should probably say no but people should avoid jumping to conclusions or making guesses by name. I think the Jon Hamm reference was made by someone else just making a random guess not R134 and the person talking about the Jon Hamm looking priest never made reference to it being the priest you mentioned......
All we know is this priest worked at college campus we don't know when or where. This could have taken places decades ago and we don't know if this is even an American college and even if it was there are what 3000 college campus in the US..........
We should avoid randomly naming people. That being said any priest who is good at blowjobs will probably get promoted within the church lol!!!
|by Anonymous||reply 162||07/09/2015|
[quote] ...any priest who is good at blowjobs will probably get promoted within the church lol!!!
Can you imagine having to blow someone as gross and creepy as Cardinal Raymond Burke dressed in her red wedding gown to get ahead professionally? Yuck, that's more gross than working at a tittie bar...
|by Anonymous||reply 163||07/09/2015|
I agree people shouldn't use names. If a priest gets kicked out or leaves the church they're screwed over! my uncle is an ex-priest and when he decided to leave to marry my aunt, he was left with nothing no payouts his pension was gone he had to start from scratch.
|by Anonymous||reply 164||07/09/2015|
What pisses me off is how can any well educated person in their right mind still believe in a supernatural deity in this day and age, and why do people look at a books written over 2600 years ago for their moral guidance. Religion was all and nice when we didn't have science and didn't know about evolution or we thought the world was flat.......but sorry god, allah, jesus, buda they're all little fairy tales.
It's utterly insane!
|by Anonymous||reply 165||07/09/2015|
R165 You may have a point, but that's a very deep topic that merits its own thread... This is about gay priests...
|by Anonymous||reply 166||07/09/2015|
There's a pastor Queen in a nearby city who had a raised platform built for his throne. He sits up there, strikes a pose and looks down on the congregation when the lectors are reading the Epistle, etc. One Sunday, I was in the glass enclosed lobby, while Mass was going on, talking to a meek and mild elderly nun about setting up for a concert that afternoon. She was never known to raise her voice, always remained calm, and never said a harsh word about anyone. As the pastor moved to his throne, she said in a disgusted tone: "And there he sits -- the Sermon on the Mount!" I couldn't stop laughing. It's probably the harshest thing she ever said about anyone.
|by Anonymous||reply 167||07/09/2015|
R167 I've always noticed there's often tension between nuns and priests. I wonder if that has to do with the repressed role women are forced to play in the church.
|by Anonymous||reply 168||07/09/2015|
In that parish the nuns were fantastic teachers in the school, r168. The kids and parents loved them. The pastor treated them like dirt under his feet. They finally had enough and five or six moved on to other schools while two retired. He turned the rectory into office space and bought a house a mile north of the church so people wouldn't see him with his boyfriend.
|by Anonymous||reply 169||07/09/2015|
There is an interesting book called The Changing Face of the Priesthood written by Father Donald Cozzens in 2000. There's a chapter in it devoted to gay men in the priesthood. He estimated using various surveys and other methods that at that time over 50% of clergy were gay and that the number of gay seminarians was upwards of 60%. He quotes an anonymous survey that took place in one American seminary where 60% of students identified as homosexual, 20% as 'confused or unsure of their orientation and 20% as heterosexual.
There's a great quote from an Cardinal who says "10% of priests are heterosexual, 10% are homosexual, and 80% are in denial."
BTW the chapter is not very pro-gay but does say if a man can show a commitment to celibacy, his orientation shouldn't matter BUT this was before Benedict XVI set up an outright ban on any man who was gay.
|by Anonymous||reply 170||07/10/2015|
Not exactly, but I was in Florence once and commented to a friend about a priest at a church in the neighborhood. He told me to stop by there and I would not be disappointed. I wasn't.
It seemed to be common knowledge among the gay guys in the area.
|by Anonymous||reply 172||07/10/2015|
I think it would be hard for anyone to get accurate numbers about how many priests are gay because I'm sure a significant number of them are deeply closeted or in denial or confused. I think some priests who are gay feel that their lack of sexual attraction to women is actually god calling them to the priesthood.
|by Anonymous||reply 173||07/10/2015|
Most are cunts
|by Anonymous||reply 174||07/10/2015|
R174 Many of them use their man cunts too LOL
|by Anonymous||reply 175||07/10/2015|
The priesthood has changed drastically since I was a kid. I remember most priests were very austere, authoritarian and distant not all but most. I stopped going when I left for college but my parents are still very active Catholics - they are what I call common sense Catholics who pretty much ignore the teachings on sex, gays, contraception - so when I come home to visit its expected I go with them to church.
At their parish all but one of the priests is under the age of 45 and they are all charismatic, energetic and more keen to emphasis that they are "normal" guys. Behind that facade however there is an iron clad resolve on the conservative teachings of the church almost to the point of brainwashing. There is one priest whom I will call FR. John who my mom just loves -he's not bad looking either - and she invites him to dinner every few weeks.
One time when I happened to be home at dinner, I started blasting him on the church's teaching on homosexuality and started quoting all these ridiculous rules in the old testament that the church no longer follows like eating shell fish is punishable by death, or planting more than one plant in a garden is a sin, or a woman who is on her period is unclean and must remain isolated from society, yet they still enforce that one verse in Leviticus to justify their homophobia. I thought he was going to have a breakdown he was acting like I was physically attacking him. I don't know what they do to this poor guys in the seminary but there is some deep physiological stuff going on.
|by Anonymous||reply 176||07/10/2015|
As I understand it, many older Catholics who aren't FOX News watching right wingers treat church as a sort of ... social club to see their friends and such rather than anything spiritually fulfilling.
Gays and younger straight women at a church where they are officially second class I just do not understand.
|by Anonymous||reply 177||07/10/2015|
I'm no longer a practicing catholic but a catholic priest literally saved my life. I come from a small conservative town and my parents were VERY religious. When I was in my late teens we had a new young priest take over the parish. He was very down to earth and a lot of fun. My family was very involved in the church so I got to know him well. When I was 18 I told my parents I was gay and it was a disaster. My dad said I was dead to him and I should leave. I had no where to go so I ran to the rectory and the Father was so good to me he let me stay with him at the rectory while he tried to work things out with my parents. I remember asking him if I was going to hell and he said that being gay wasn't a sin and that the church taught gay people should be celibate but he wasn't sure God or Christ would necessarily feel that way.
Things didn't go well and one day he came to me with an envelope of money and his aunt's address who lived in near NYC and said that she was willing to allow me to stay with her while I got my life in order. So I did and I ended up living with her for a number of years while I went to school. I still keep in touch with the priest and see him a couple times of year. I've never asked him but I largely suspect he's probably gay and say himself in me which is why he helped so much.
|by Anonymous||reply 178||07/10/2015|
What about your family - did they come around?
|by Anonymous||reply 179||07/10/2015|
R178, that was one nice man, and of course a nice auntie as well. Too bad your parents felt like that, I mean it's hard to understand that being gay would make parents kick their own child out of their lives. I always wonder when I hear of parents like yours that will they feel guilt for the rest of their lives since they must realize you're not an evil person at all. I mean bloody hell, so fucked up.
|by Anonymous||reply 180||07/10/2015|
R179 my family situation was always tense to be honest. My parents never had a happy marriage and if they weren't so religious I think they would have divorced but now they lead separate lives pretty much. My brother and sister are now completely supportive and I see them all the time. My mom has come around though she's still very much at unease when my boyfriend is around. My dad and I only see each other at Christmas, weddings or funerals and we rarely speak beyond the pleasantries.
The priest's aunt passed away last year but she remained a very loving mother figure in my life. Like I said the Priest and I are still in touch and has met my boyfriend a few times. He has never once played the gay behavior is wrong card or said anything it's really kind of developed into a father-son dynamic. I suspect a lot of priests share his more liberal views but like has been said by others they can face significant repercussions if they come out too against church teachings.
|by Anonymous||reply 181||07/10/2015|
R178 what a heartbreak story re: your parents but what an amazing man this priest is and his aunt too! I'm very anti-catholic from my horrendous upbringing in the church so I'm anti-priest but sometimes you forget there are actually some who live what they preach re: love and welcoming.
|by Anonymous||reply 182||07/10/2015|
It's a misconception that priests take a vow of chastity. Only priests who are in an order or congregation of priests take an actual vow like Jesuits or Passionists or Franciscans. Your typical parish priest only swears to be chaste. In the church's books if you take vow you're to uphold this for life (even if the church changes the rules) and violating it is a mortal sin. Whereas if a parish priest who has just sworn to celibacy and he breaks that it's a confessionable sin though there is a major taboo to break it.
I know there has been talk about Pope Francis changing the rules but I don't think that's going to happen. Franny seems to be all talk but no action the conservative cardinals will never let him make massive reforms, instead he's just saying the right things. I will say he's trying to subtly soften the church's tone towards LGBT people but there will not be major changes in the church's teachings.
|by Anonymous||reply 183||07/12/2015|
R33,, Ken and his partner live in a very nice home in suburban Essex County, New Jersey.
|by Anonymous||reply 184||07/12/2015|
[quote] Gays and younger straight women at a church where they are officially second class I just do not understand.
I don't either, but especially with the pageantry and rituals of Catholicism, many people just cannot or will not break the habit.
|by Anonymous||reply 186||07/13/2015|
R186 I think some people find the catholic church (or other religions for that matter) to be a bit of bread and circus. My parents are an example of that, they disagree with most of the church's teachings but still go every sunday because as my mom says 'it's something to do.'
It's a bit like the British Monarchy why it' still around is puzzling but it's a great free show.
|by Anonymous||reply 187||07/13/2015|
R157 I don't think they're referring to Father Schmitz because I know for a fact that he's straight........he has a gay sibling though and that's all I'm going to say on that.
|by Anonymous||reply 188||07/13/2015|
I agree with everything Stephen Fry says in this video
|by Anonymous||reply 189||07/13/2015|
[quote] bread and circus.
People really get attached to rituals. I am in a very progressive church where we have a number of Catholics, many of them LGBT, who sob when they talk about how they miss XYZ thing that the church did. I do understand it, I guess. But I always felt that way about, say, childhood memories, and understanding the ugly side of something as an adult would cure me of the nostalgia.
Catholics give good ceremony, though. It's like drag - dresses, props and some fierce music.
|by Anonymous||reply 190||07/13/2015|
That's why SO many queens end up as High Anglicans.
|by Anonymous||reply 191||07/13/2015|
R190 & R191 I was raised Catholic but I did spend a number of years in a High Anglican church before giving up religion, and yes it was brimming with prissy queens. I have to say though the high Anglicans actually do ceremony better than the Catholics these days. The catholic church in north america has moved away from it's more 'showy elements' to try and seem more modest in an attempt to draw people back, where as the high Anglicans just don't give a shit.
|by Anonymous||reply 192||07/14/2015|
My husband's older brother is a catholic priest and it has caused problems in our relationship because my hubby idolizes his brother in so many ways. His family is obviously very catholic and when he came out it did create troubles for him but his parents and sister have come around and are now very positive and embracing of our relationship, but his brother the priest still disapproves. The priest - as I refer to him - is always ill at ease when I'm around. The first Christmas I spent with my hubby's family was a disaster and Christmas Eve dinner ended with my husband and the priest getting into a heated argument at the dinner table over same-sex marriage. In 2013 we decided to get married and when the priest found out I think he had a stroke. He refused to attend, said we were mocking the institution of marriage and that my husband and I were doomed - I was like can we have that printed on the wedding invites because it's hilarious. Our wedding was a great day but tinged with sadness because it would have meant the world for my husband if his brother had attended.
Shortly after our wedding my sister-in-law came to stay with us and she told me something that I have yet to tell my hubby. She said that she feels one of the reasons her priest brother is so against our relationship, beyond the religious issues, was that she has long suspected her priest brother was gay too. I guess when they were teenagers, she accidentally came across gay porn in the priest's bedroom and that he seems to have developed infatuations with male parishioners and very rarely talks about women.
|by Anonymous||reply 193||07/14/2015|
|by Anonymous||reply 194||07/14/2015|
Do you think Francis will have the balls to end priestly celibacy?
|by Anonymous||reply 195||07/14/2015|
I've ordered the Cozzens book on priests, not just for the sex stuff (as he was won't to exclaim "There's more to the book than ch. 7!"). I have a very good friend who converted to RC years ago, and seems to be rather satisfied with his choice. I absolutely don't get it at all, but leave the subject alone, and don't barrage him with my new-agey views. I believe he said their parish has a good looking priest who does modeling for fashion shows (if I understood correctly); he further reported that parishes often have two priests, one American, and one imported.
|by Anonymous||reply 196||07/14/2015|
R196 The current 'trend' in the church is to bring priests from places where Catholicism is still 'thriving' like Africa or the Philippines to countries in the west like the UK, US and Canada where Catholicism is going the way of the dinosaur to make up for a major shortage of priests. I remember before I gave up religion and realized there isn't a God, I could barley understand what our priest was saying.
R195 There is no way priestly celibacy is going away anytime soon. Francis has said that he's traditional on that view but that the 'door is always open,' and in his book that he wrote when he was still a Cardinal he said 'if a priest could not observe celibacy, then he should leave, for it is better to have a good layman than a bad priest.' First of all the curia, which is made up of a majority of diehard conservatives appointment by JPII and Ben XVI, would push against such a massive change and I think a lot of priests would actually be against it.
Francis is a good spokesperson for the church trying to soften its public image but he's not the reformer the media makes him out to seem. I think we'll see the church adopt a softer tone to its dealing with gays, maybe even contraception, maybe premarital sex but there will be no massive reforms. There will be no optional celibacy for priests, no women priests, no gay marriage etc. etc.
|by Anonymous||reply 197||07/14/2015|
R197 Indeed, the first ones to cry bloody murder over the abolition of celibacy would be the closeted gay ones... That would blow their cover, and in the case of many, the reason they sought the priesthood in the first place... They would be asked "Father, why haven't you found a nice LADY yet?"... I can't even imagine their scowls at being asked that...
|by Anonymous||reply 198||07/14/2015|
Just a reminder that former Anglican clergy who convert ARE allowed to become married Catholic priests.
|by Anonymous||reply 199||07/14/2015|
As are Eastern Rite Catholic priests in communion with Rome, R199. In my local area, a married Ukrainian priest seemed like one of the most down to earth and truly spiritual priests I've ever met. Probably because he gets laid regularly with zero guilt.
|by Anonymous||reply 200||07/14/2015|
R199 Yes, but married Anglican priests have to get papal dispensation in order to become catholic priests.
1) Go watch a video on youtube with any priest talking about chastity and the first thing you'll hear them say is that being a priest is life rather than a job it's a total commitment of time and energy to serving the church and Christ...blah blah blah...a family just wouldn't fit into that. I can't see many priest actually wanting to give up celibacy.
2) As R197 said, even if Francis want to change the rules he doesn't actually have the power. The pope has a lot of sway but he doesn't have the authority to change a doctrine of the church or to alter the fundamental structure of things, it is really the Roman Curia that is charge of the church and even more so since the reign of JPII who was a drool bag in the last years of his reign. The Curia would have to agree to change and that will never happen.
3) Even if the rules were changed, it's unlikely that it will effect the drop in men joining the priesthood. The real problem is that church, certainly in the west, has become mostly irrelevant to its so-called followers. Also what about nuns, monks, religious sisters and religious brothers? Religious Brothers and Sisters typically don't live in convents or monasteries so they could probably marry like a regular priest, but nuns and monks live in cloisters cut off from the world, would they be exempt?
|by Anonymous||reply 201||07/14/2015|
R201, priestly celibacy is a discipline of the Church, not a dogma. It can be changed by the Pope, and believe it will be one day(but not by Frankie the fake).
|by Anonymous||reply 202||07/14/2015|
One of my nearest and dearest friends [a woman] is married to a former catholic priest turned Anglican minister. He is a fairly liberal guy and one day the bishop of his diocese pretty much told him to leave under the guise of 'redetermine your vocation.' So he left became an Anglican priest and met and married his wife.
He's said the same thing the posters above had said, that even sexually active priests wouldn't want the church to formally drop celibacy. I've also talked to him about gay priests and he told in no uncertain terms that the catholic priesthood really encourages a homoerotic environment. He said a lot of priests end up messing around with each other, even men who would probably outside of the priesthood would be sexually attracted to women. He said that there's almost an unofficial rule in areas of the church that if you're going to break your vow, might as well do so within the club because there's less chance of it getting out.
|by Anonymous||reply 203||07/14/2015|
R202 You're right but I can't see a pope changing something so fundamental without a long drawn out review process and like you said Francis is all talk he's been saying this stuff for two years and has not made any steps forward.
|by Anonymous||reply 204||07/14/2015|
R193, that's a fucked up situation with your brother-in-law. Hopefully he comes around at some point and lets you in. Did you ever suspect he might gay before the sister told you?
|by Anonymous||reply 205||07/14/2015|
Francis recently met with a large group of bishops and cardinals who approve of marriage for priests. He didn't publicize this meeting so it almost wasn't noticed.
|by Anonymous||reply 206||07/14/2015|
Agreed that gay priests will hate the idea of having to explain why they aren't married.
|by Anonymous||reply 207||07/14/2015|
R206 Where did you hear this?
|by Anonymous||reply 208||07/14/2015|
I was a Catholic priest for many years before choosing to leave. I left because I wanted to live openly as a gay man. I know at least 40 priests in a very large city/archdiocese who are actively gay. Should they be outed? If so, how?
|by Anonymous||reply 209||07/14/2015|
R209 I personally don't believe priests should be outed as they have a right to privacy however morally I feel that those priests or bishops or Cardinals who spew anti-gay rhetoric should perhaps be outed because they are punishing others for their own self hatred.
|by Anonymous||reply 210||07/14/2015|
RE: Francis and celibacy. One of the more interesting things about Francis is that he prefers to identify himself as Bishop of Rome as opposed to Pontiff. The media hasn't said much on it but many Vatican insiders view this as a message from Francis that he intends to downplay or decentralize the pope's role within the church and create more of a democracy similar to the Anglican Communion where the Archbishop of Canterbury is both a diocesan bishop and the symbolic head of the church.
|by Anonymous||reply 211||07/14/2015|
R209, as supposed moral leaders I see less reason for their privacy.
|by Anonymous||reply 212||07/14/2015|
R211 Ya Francis is clearly trying to decentralize the papal powers to the Cardinals and bishops.
In October the Vatican will be holding the second part of its Synod On The Family which is meant to look at non-traditional families. Interesting that Francis has appointed two pro-gay Bishops to lead the synod this year after last year's fiasco when the more conservative elements removed positive statements surrounding gay couples.
|by Anonymous||reply 213||07/14/2015|
Maybe Francis should have a referendum and all priests can vote on whether or not they want to maintain the rules around not being allowed to marry.
|by Anonymous||reply 214||07/15/2015|
Francis won't be around long enough to make any real serious changes. He's said several times that his papacy will be short like 4 or 5 years and that he'll likely retire like Benedict. He's not as liberal as the media likes to suggest I think he's simply attempting to democratize the church and open it up to discussion but I don't think there will be any major changes beyond maybe a softening in its tone.
|by Anonymous||reply 215||07/15/2015|
R205 I never really suspected he might gay no. He comes across pretty butch actually and he's big into sports. The only stereotypical gay quality I noticed in him is his love of opera hahaha! He's come to visit us twice since we've been married and his relationship with my husband is more cordial these days, but I don't know honestly if he will ever come around.
|by Anonymous||reply 216||07/15/2015|
R209 Not to be morbid, Father (if you will allow me to call you that, mindful that will really be a priest forever), but what are the dynamics INSIDE the priesthood? How do you learn one is family and the other one not (I think there must be a lot of feminine straight priests who set everyone's gaydar off for no reason)... What's the etiquette...? What is a do and what is a don't?
How insane can the glass closet get inside? I am the one who reported on the young, buffed-up Southern priest who attends circuit parties in his underwear, thinking that would sound insane, but I am beginning to get it's pretty mild compared to what others do... What's it really like from the inside? Why do the few straight priests - those close to right wing groups - complain that they feel alienated and left out since there's such a prevalent gay clique in the priesthood? Do they have a point?
|by Anonymous||reply 217||07/15/2015|
R2, then you should get photos of this and send them to the pope. Hypocrisy requires outing.
|by Anonymous||reply 218||07/15/2015|
This former Catholic Priest paints an interesting picture of gay priests in the church.
|by Anonymous||reply 219||07/15/2015|
Gay monk Fr. Jeremy Driscoll:
|by Anonymous||reply 220||07/15/2015|
For anyone who leaves priesthood, the term "Father" would not be welcomed and is, in fact, inappropriate - you leave it all behind and start a new life with a very interesting past, I'm sure. When you live in community with others, study with them, vacation with them, spend time with their families, pray with them, etc. for 4 to 8 years, it's just a matter of time before they share with you if they're gay. I wouldn't presume anyone to be gay, but I know those who have confided in me, or have gone to the bars with me, etc. I don't know what percentage of men in the priesthood are gay, but I know dozens right now in one city that are gay and sexually active, just as I know some who are straight and sexually active, too. I just find it hard to let them live their double life knowing that they are complicit in oppressing an entire community of people who just want to live their life as they seem fit, without hurting anyone.
|by Anonymous||reply 221||07/15/2015|
I was hooked on the article linked by R219 at "Meanwhile, in the Vatican, old men who are to spirituality what gourd-shaking witchdoctors are to modern medicine ..."
|by Anonymous||reply 222||07/15/2015|
I'm someone who believes spirituality is as much a crock as any religion. I've never had a spiritual experience in my life and feel that if anyone claims they've had one there is something going on chemically in the brain due to a variety of factors making them imagine it.
I mean if you feel spiritual in a woods or forest yeah its pretty and the air is nice but you are nothing and it certainly isn't sharing anything 'spiritually' with you. It couldn't care less if you are killed by a wildfire or swallowed up in an earthquake. And do cows have a spirit? Does a weed? Are people kidding about this stuff?
So here's my main question. Today when people grow up is there a need for any kind of service? How can you still believe in the divinity of any beings? How can you justify adhering to rules and traditions created for societies totally unlike our own.
After I stopped believing in Santa Clause I no longer believed and that was it. I feel no lack in my life and emotional and social needs can be met in ways that do not involve denial and lies.
Why do people still need religious rituals and beliefs in their life? This is something I'm very curious about..
|by Anonymous||reply 223||07/15/2015|
R223 Very interesting opinion, but the topic is gay priests, not what you make out of religion... That's a bigger, longer discussion that probably has little place on Datalounge.
|by Anonymous||reply 224||07/15/2015|
R223, I was on my way to become a "priest" in a Hinduist sect. During a group meditation I actually did have a vision where the sect's dead guru talked to me directly. It could've been just my own imagination but it felt very real. The older guys told me it was a very good sign and didn't see anything weird about it. I was freaked out myself. It was the only time during the hundreds of times I've meditated that I've had that kind of experience.
I'm not sure if I believe in supernatural but I can't say for sure it doesn't exist. I don't like organized religion, especially the Western ones, but then again I think that for some people religion's moral guidelines might be a good thing. I mean people like criminals and drunks who find God and get power from their strong belief. I've seen too much damage done in the name of any religion to really care about them personally anymore, though. But I do understand the calling to become a priest or a monk since I had it myself in my early 20s.
|by Anonymous||reply 225||07/15/2015|
The pope is quietly getting rid of old-school clergy who hold higher office. Just this week, he dismissed a bishop from Mexico and another bishop in Brazil. They're now retired and won't be participating in anything.
|by Anonymous||reply 226||07/15/2015|
R226 Pope Francis is no liberal. Francis is clearing house not necessarily to suddenly swerve the church to the left but he's trying to rid it of negative influences who supported much of the corruption during JPII and BXVI reigns. He's downplaying the Pope's role as a 'king' and downplaying the pomp surrounding the Vatican. I think he wants to make the church appear more humble and to take on more of a democratic tone. If you actually read things he's said before becoming pope, he's still very conservative. He agrees with the church's teaching on contraception, women priests, priestly celibacy, abortion etc.
|by Anonymous||reply 227||07/15/2015|
I was an ordained a Catholic priest in 1980 and left in 1995 after falling in love and engaging in a sexual relationship with a fellow priest. I've long thought about writing about my experiences in the priesthood but would have to do it anonymously since many people are still involved with the Church and they could face serious repercussions if they're found out. I might start a blog at some point.
I will say this about the Roman Catholic priesthood is that in my experience, the vast majority of men in the priesthood today are gay and if I were to harbor a guess, I would say over 80%. Some admit to it, others don't deny it, and others are in deep denial, and most are filled with self-hatred over their sexuality. You can rest assured that the priests, bishops and cardinals who spout out vile homophobic rants, are definitely self-hatting homosexuals themselves. The conservative estimates we hear about maybe 10 to 20% of clergy being gay are put out by an organization that cannot face up to the facts.
The catholic priesthood is a great draw for men in deep denial of their own sexuality. Think about it, you can hide behind a collar your whole life rather than telling your likely very conservative family that you enjoy dick. The priesthood also allows you to live under the allusion that part of the reason you're not attracted to women is that God is calling you to this important vocation.
When I was a priest, the attitude towards homosexuality in the priesthood was very much 'don't ask, don't tell.' When I was applying to enter the seminary, the only question I was asked regarding sexuality was, had I been celibate for at least two years prior to applying including any acts of masturbation. I was being truthful when I said I had not had sex, I didn't loose my virginity until I was 38, but I was lying when I said I had not masturbated - all priests wack off.
There is such homoerotic undertones within the priesthood that many heterosexual priests feel ostracized and isolated. There are large 'underground networks' of gay priests in North America who socialize almost exclusively with one another. Some of these networks do involve some sexual elements, others are more networking groups to meet fellow priests who are in the same boat as you. Some of these groups, particularly those in larger cities, are great to be a part of if you have aspirations to be elevated to higher positions in the church as many bishops move in these circles. When in seminary you are almost brain washed to limit your interactions with women in order to discourage rumors or temptations which is yet another reason there is a lot of homosexual activity within the priesthood. I knew a priest who was heterosexual but who would often engage in oral sex with other priests because it was viewed as a better alternative than being seen with a woman. I want to clarify that the priesthood, at least in my experience, isn't overflowing with sexual acts, but it's not uncommon either. I would say that while I was a priest maybe 25% or 30% of priests I knew were sexually active.
Interesting note when I informed my bishop of my intention to leave due to a sexual relationship he advised me to neglect to mention that the sexual relationship was with another man and a fellow priest.
|by Anonymous||reply 228||07/16/2015|
Most straight men don't swallow religion so hungrily. Priests have always been primarily gay, and probably should be.
|by Anonymous||reply 229||07/16/2015|
The current pope is well aware of the church's current rule against married priests. He also knows the history of the priesthood and that priests and nuns were allowed to be married at various times in church history. His recent meeting with several dozen European bishops who are open to changing the rule, is an indication that this could happen in the next two or three years.
|by Anonymous||reply 230||07/16/2015|
R230 actually the meeting I think you're referring which happened back in February was not solely about priests getting married but during the meeting a discussion about priest who left to get married and now want back into the priesthood happened. Francis was quoted as saying that question was open but the media misinterpreted it as priests getting married was on his agenda. Francis stated numerous times when he was Cardinal he is against the ending of priestly celibacy.
|by Anonymous||reply 231||07/16/2015|
Again I ask why would anybody today want to be a member of any clergy? If you are spiritual do you believe in spirits? In ghosts?
I don't understand it.
If you need to tend to people emotionally become a psycho therapist. Becoming a priest or minister you are nothing but a witch doctor in different clothes, with a different style, in a different civilization. The words of the New Testament are nice but are of no more worth than any other self help book and a lot less practical.
We won't even touch upon the nightmare of the Old Testament.
And ask a person suffering from IBS how 'spiritual' they feel.
|by Anonymous||reply 232||07/16/2015|
I see spirits like vodka and gin.
|by Anonymous||reply 233||07/16/2015|
[quote]actually the meeting I think you're referring which happened back in February
It was two weeks ago.
|by Anonymous||reply 234||07/16/2015|
R234 do you have a link to that news?
|by Anonymous||reply 235||07/17/2015|
I don't think Francis is going to end celibacy in the priesthood altogether in all honesty, he has stated several times he's in favor of priests being unable to marry. What I think we might see is a compromise that would allow men who are already married (like deacons) to enter the priesthood and former priests who married could return after a 'period of penance.' I think single men who enter the seminary or current priests would be expected to remain celibate.
|by Anonymous||reply 236||07/17/2015|
[R236] I believe you're right. The pope said in a press conference last week that he thinks celibacy is a gift for the church but that he would be open to regional solutions where admitting married men would be a 'stopgap' measure to help with a quickly shrinking priesthood.
|by Anonymous||reply 237||07/17/2015|
R228 I'd read that blog!!!!!!
|by Anonymous||reply 238||07/17/2015|
R235, no I didn't save the link and I only keep my browser history for three days. It may have been in Austrian media since I know priests over there and follow their news. I was surprised to see the story since it stated that the only purpose of the meeting was to discuss married priests. While reading it, I wondered if Francis scheduled it so close to his trip to South America so that it would get lost in the coverage of his journey. That's what seems to have happened. A lot of the bishops at the meeting were from Germany and Austria. In May, there was media coverage of clergy in Austria seeking to remove the ban on married clergy. The priest who is heading up that campaign in Austria got the evil eye from Benedict, so he was silent for several years. He's come back in the spotlight and has a lof of support.
|by Anonymous||reply 239||07/17/2015|
R239 I don't know about the meeting you're referring to but there are number of leaks coming out of Francis's private meeting with Bishops during his visit to South America and they seem to be the same message:
1) Francis believes it is not up to the Pope how bishops should deal with the priest shortage but rather they should work with other bishops around the world and put proposals forward to Rome. He feels the Pope should not end the rules around celibacy unless all the world's bishops have singled their approval.
2) Francis is not completely in favor of ending celibacy but is open to the idea of allowing married men into the priesthood and readmitting men who have left the priesthood to marry back in.
I think within the next two to three years we'll see the church opening the doors to married men but it will fall short of letting men who are currently priests get married.
|by Anonymous||reply 240||07/17/2015|
I don't think allowing Priest to marry will suddenly draw huge numbers of men to the priesthood. Other christian denominations that allow their priests to marry (and some that except women) are struggling too. The real issue is that the western world is increasingly secular and people are turning out church in droves. Many people are moving to spiritualism rather than organized religion.
The catholic church is like a car in mud, yes with Francis the wheels are now spinning but the car is still stuck and not going anywhere.
|by Anonymous||reply 241||07/17/2015|
Pope Francis won't be around much longer there's already a storm brewing in the vatican to get him out. If he isn't able to get significant changes made at the synod in October he will wait for Benedict XVI - who was also pushed out- to die and then he'll step down.
|by Anonymous||reply 242||07/18/2015|
I can see one reason for the church not to change its stance on priest not being allowed to marry, and that's money. Right now most priests live in some kind of catholic owned property, whether it be a rectory or some other space. If priests were allowed to get married the church would have to purchase appropriate accommodations, they'd also have to pay more the average priest in the US gets an annual allowance of about $25,000 to $30,000 a year. That would need to be higher to support children.
|by Anonymous||reply 243||07/19/2015|
The church already has appropriate accommodations. Do you think rectories don't have a kitchen, dining room, multiple bedrooms and bathrooms? They'll save money on a cook/housekeeper since the wife can do that.
|by Anonymous||reply 244||07/19/2015|
Here's the problem with Francis he's pretty inconsistent when comes to actions vs words. He's been given credit for turn the vatican bank around but in fact all the reforms with Vatican banking were made when Benedict XVI was still in office. Yes he's made more welcoming overtones for LGBT people, gay priests and divorced people, but the church's teachings have not changed or softened. He seems keen on creating dialogue but less keen to actually take action.
|by Anonymous||reply 245||07/19/2015|
The free-spending bishops are all being retired. He probably has something to do with that. The posh bishop palaces are closing in Europe and the U.S.
|by Anonymous||reply 246||07/19/2015|
R246 Yes, the Pope wants the church to be a 'poor church for the poor.' He wants no more of the extravagance of the past and is weeding out Cardinals and Bishops who are a problem. In Francis' era the theme at the Vatican is certainly less is more.
|by Anonymous||reply 247||07/20/2015|
Father Robert Barron was just named the Auxiliary Bishop of LA today. Barron is a major homophobe his verdict to the Supreme Court's same sex marriage ruling "God is forever, courts fall"
|by Anonymous||reply 248||07/21/2015|
R248 This may sound sad, but Barron's is about as civilized homophobia as you may find among Catholic priests... Some say shit one thinks they might fit well in the Westboro Baptist Church...
Get it through your head... The official line of the Magisterium is homophobic... So no one will deviate from that... Not even the Pope, aside from his "who am I to judge"... As with the case of Barron, we kinda have to be thankful for small mercies...
|by Anonymous||reply 249||07/21/2015|
But I have to say though, that all of that TV famewhoring that Fr. Barron did evidently paid off... And now he's a bishop...
He was craving to be a bishop, and you R248 expect him to NOT be a homophobe, even if just a little bit? Come on, you really do know nothing about about how CatholicChurch INC works those promotions, do you?
|by Anonymous||reply 250||07/21/2015|
I don't know if anyone here has heard of Sister Simone Campbell? She's had of an organization called Nuns on the Bus? A few years ago Benedict XVI slammed them for their vocal support for Obamacare and their slightly less vocal support of women priests and gay marriage. She now goes around the country giving talks and basically giving the finger to the church hierarchy. I saw her at a talk in New York City back in 2012 (before Francis was pope) I think and an audience member asked her about the church's stance on gay rights given there are so many gay priests.
She said quote 'I think you'd be surprised to find that a noticeable minority, perhaps just on the cusp of a majority, are pro-gay rights BUT any priest who dares to publicly contradict the big boys will find every door between here and Rome closed off to them.'
|by Anonymous||reply 251||07/21/2015|
She had a prominent speech at the Democratic convention (can't recall if it was '08 or '12).
|by Anonymous||reply 252||07/21/2015|
R252 Yes she's been very involved with the Obama administration.
|by Anonymous||reply 253||07/21/2015|
There's a priest who has a lot of youtube videos named Fr. John Bartunek. I find him very attractive (I have a thing for tall lanky men). He does some retreat missionary work ---- I'd like to get him in the missionary position
|by Anonymous||reply 254||07/22/2015|
Speaking of priests on Youtube, I ran across one who was blond, glasses and dorky as HELL ... instant lust on my part.
|by Anonymous||reply 255||07/22/2015|
R255 Do you have a link? LOL.
I have a total fetish for priests and here's why when I was a teenager we moved into a house that was literally right next door to rectory that was shared by several priests from different parishes in the area. One of those priests was Fr. Paul who was in his early 30s, tall (maybe 6'4), dark black hair, always had facial stubble, and amazing green eyes, he was also BUILT....I think he must've dealt with chastity by working out. My bedroom window looked out into their backyard and during the summer Fr. Paul used to sunbathe SHIRTLESS regularly. I used to peep through my window constantly when he was out there and I'm sure he saw me but that never stopped him.
|by Anonymous||reply 256||07/22/2015|
R254 OMG you're into Legionaries of Christ... Bad bad boy... Let's hope Fr. Maciel never laid hands on Bartunek...
Father Bartunek was an actor before hearing the Call... Let's hope he was a straight one like Tom Cruise ;)
|by Anonymous||reply 257||07/22/2015|
R256, when I was in the seminary, one of the priests regularly worked out; you could hear him in his room lifting weights. He had a nice build, and was cute. Conservative as all get out though. He'd probably say I was going to hell just for being a member of DL.
|by Anonymous||reply 258||07/22/2015|
R258 & R256 my cousin went to the seminary in 2009(ish) only lasted 2 years and then he started to feel like he was in a cult. Anyways some of students and some of the teachers used to joke in say going to the gym to jack my body instead of jack off....the gym definitely seems like 'an outlet' for some priests.
|by Anonymous||reply 259||07/22/2015|
R257 I've heard Fr. Bartubek and Tom Cruise share a closet ;)
Forget Fr. Bartubek you know who I find kind of cute, Fr. Edward Beck .... I love white haired men hahaha! He appears on CNN regularly he's good friend with Joy Behar......................
|by Anonymous||reply 260||07/22/2015|
A couple of years ago I got involved with a guy who was in the seminary. He was a very nice guy but way too religious *duh me* for my liking. At first it was ok but after a few months in was 'jesus this, jesus that' I couldn't take it. The sad thing was the sex was really good....it's always the holier than thou ones who are the biggest whores in bed.
|by Anonymous||reply 261||07/23/2015|
I went to the seminary with Bob Barron, soon to be an auxiliary bishop in LA. He was a friendly man who always had a smile on his face and kind of a funny laugh. He didn't have a lot of friends and loved the movie ET. I think I recall him having a stuffed ET doll in his room. Obviously he was well read but he was and remains someone who love to TALK and isn't one to identify with the needy or the common person who needs help. Sadly, he is focused on himself and his books. Even on the day it was announced that he was a newly appointed bishop he was hocking his newest book. Shameless, I think. His life isn't about identifying with Christ, it's about HIM speaking and promoting himself in Christ's name. It's not what the Church needs.
|by Anonymous||reply 262||07/24/2015|
[R262] There are a couple of priests who are active in social media who are clearly in it for the personal exposure and not the preaching of Christ.
There is one priest who is fairly active on media who often talks about gays he seems cool and hip and approachable but what he's saying is very damaging to young people who are struggling with their sexuality. That gay sex is against human nature, that gay sex is disordered etc. The thing that really pisses me off is that this priest has a gay sibling! How can you be so cold towards someone in your family! That doesn't seem very Christ like to me. I won't name the priest because that would be outing his sibling and I don't that's right.
|by Anonymous||reply 263||07/26/2015|
R263 Someone on this thread has said before that Fr. Mike Schmitz's brother is gay, and he kinda fits your description, but surely he's not the only priest with a gay brother in the world.
|by Anonymous||reply 264||07/28/2015|
And I'm sure he's not the only brother with a gay priest in the family...!
|by Anonymous||reply 265||07/28/2015|
R264 It could very well be Fr. Mike Schmitz. There's a youtube video of him speaking at a defend religious freedoms event where he adamantly defends the traditional definition of marriage. His arguments against gay marriage are the typical Catholic BS we've come to expect...although when an audience member asks a very legit question about how marriage would grant gay couples certain legal rights his answer is "no one is denied the right to marry, everyone has the right to marry someone of the opposite sex.' .... Around 1 hour and 22 mins he talks about his brother. Too bad I wish Fr. Mike suffered from same-sex attraction ;) LOL
I love how these seemingly nice religious people say they're not homophoic but don't realize that by saying gay love isn't real love, or a gay relatonship is just a good friendship well that's certainly passive aggressive homophobia.
|by Anonymous||reply 266||07/28/2015|
Just looking at his picture, the guy is pinging to me.
|by Anonymous||reply 267||07/28/2015|
In college I took a couple of religious studies classes mostly because they were easy credits. I met this guy in one of my classes and long story short we ended up becoming fuck buddies. He was very catholic and so every so often he'd breakdown and go on about how we were sinning and how we had to stop, but within a couple days we'd be back at ---- I went along with it because the sex was so good. Anyways it lasted a year or so then I graduated and we lost touch quickly.
Fast forward about 10 years later I go home for christmas and go to midnight mass with my family and who should the priest be but the man I mentioned above. It was difficult listening to his homily while memories of me busting a nut on his face or him riding me kept popping in my head. I ended up dodging out of the church before he had a chance to see me.
|by Anonymous||reply 268||07/30/2015|
Converting to Catholicism saved my life and has given indescribable joy.
I couldn't care less about priests interest in sucking cock.
|by Anonymous||reply 269||07/30/2015|
You should be more concerned about the hypocritical hierarchy actively promoting homophobia.
|by Anonymous||reply 270||07/30/2015|
Priests and those hardcore catholic fundamentalists always whine saying the church gets a bad rap when it comes to homosexuality that everyone thinks they're homophobic. But of course they're not homophobic they believe that experiencing same-sex attraction (because saying the word 'gay' denotes an evil lifestyle not an attraction) is not a sin but acting on it is. They even use kind language like disordered to describe homosexual acts, or as Pope Benedict lovingly said (while trying on his prada shoes) that 'homosexuals are more prone to intrinsic moral evil. Nothing homophobic about that!!!
What's even funnier is that most sane priests have dropped the 'being gay is a choice' to 'people are likely born that way,' which means if you're going to follow church teachings that means God created homosexuality. Look at the animal kingdom which God allegedly also created and it's full of homosexual activity. So if God created homosexuality, why would he be against people living out their lives that way? It's kind of like saying to a person who was born blonde, oh I know you were born that way but God wants you to be a brunette.
But of course according to church teaching the only purpose for sex is procreation so if you can't procreate then you can't have sex.
This is some video the church released a while back...I nearly vomited at the poor self-hating people in it. It's sad that these priest and nun and other catholic spokesperson really believe they're being nice and loving.
|by Anonymous||reply 271||07/30/2015|
Well the Pope today said that the Church needs to show 'more mercy to divorced people who remarry' but no move forward with the homosexuals.
|by Anonymous||reply 272||08/05/2015|
The church moves at a glacial pace. Look how long it took for them to respond to the Reformation with Vatican II.
Raised heavy Irish, I love what the church does for me spiritually, and continue as a Catholic partly as acceptance of the socio-spiritual hand I was dealt and partly as a big old "fuck you" to orthodox Catholics living out their Crusade and Inquisition fantasies. To me, it's just one cultural expression of a more universal spirituality we have as human beings. The post-Vatican II Roman Catholic expression of that universal spirituality is what I was raised with, and I've decided to just stick with it.
However, I absolutely detest all this double life bullshit around sex, the mafia, and so much more – and the culture that supports it. It's so far from Christ. There's centuries of this culture to unwind, and I don't expect it to be unwound in my lifetime. It's what keeps me from joining the clergy, despite some deep interest I have in a contemplative vocation. I don't think I could deal with having a higher level of integrity than Catholic clerical culture has. How in the fuck could I ever guide other people's spiritual lives and be a leader within their major life events if my house wasn't in order? And to keep this on topic - this is why I could not, would not and have not had sex with RC clergy.
|by Anonymous||reply 273||08/05/2015|
What does the church do for you spiritually? I would seriously like to know. I've never had a spiritual moment in my life and clearly cold cruel nature has no interest in us individually so what is it that you really feel?
And how does Catholicism enable this?
|by Anonymous||reply 274||08/05/2015|
I'm not so sure that Catholicism enables this as much as culture enables this. Gay as it is, my grandmother took me to mass weekly, and the church was a wonderful neo-gothic place with a rose window, a full pipe and panel organ and german glass-stained windows. I had wonderful priests and nuns around me, and the place was full of love. It created a relationship with a higher power/creator, and I have very private and personal reasons to believe that this has paid dividends. I NEVER talk about them, because I own my "woo woo" stuff and know better than to talk into other people's experiences, nor do I want to have to explain that my life is based in reason. I'm not betting on the stock market because Jesus told me something. As I've grown older (I'm pushing 40), it's been all of the above, plus contemplative prayer – rosaries, litanies and the like, as well as following of some Jesuit practices (look up the Daily Examen and Ignatian spirituality). I listened when the Dali Lama (who had a close relationship with the Catholic monk and writer Thomas Merton) said to use his teachings to inform a deepening of my Christianity, rather than conversion to Buddhism. I also checked in with a few old school progressive priests to make sure I wasn't "doing it wrong", and the best thing I was told was a reminder that Vatican II made it clear that violation of dogma and doctrine matters far less than violation of one's own conscience. I've run with that, seen the massive diversity within the Catholic allows me to go many ways, and am fine with it. Works for me, doesn't work for everyone.
|by Anonymous||reply 275||08/05/2015|
Thanks for your response.
I grew up in a very catholic Italian environment but I saw so much cruelty and indifference around me that in my teen years any spirituality I felt began to dissipate.
I see that religious people and people who claim any spiritual enlightenment are no different than any others and growing up with catholics who went to church and prayed yet behaved with enormous narcissism and caused great harm to others created in me a great skepticism and sadness. Far too many pay lip service to acting with love and kindness towards other yet make themselves the true center of the universe.
|by Anonymous||reply 276||08/06/2015|
I don't understand the church's, and many of its followers, obsession with homosexuality. I really don't (besides the fact that many men running the church are closet cases). Here's the thing: the church teaches that divorce is bad but most church and parishioners in the west turn a blind eye to it; the church teaches premarital sex is a sin (again blind eye), using condoms or birth control bad (blind eye) etc....but when gay rights or gay sex are discussed it's like a fire alarm has gone off and every freaks out about it.
|by Anonymous||reply 277||08/06/2015|
I know there's an extremely cruel side to Catholic culture, R276, and I consider myself very lucky not to have been subjected to that. And I agree with you - the best ones are the humble ones ,not all these self-proclaimed inquisitors or "good Catholic" police. And the humble ones aren't the loud ones. And the humble ones could give two fucks about social control. And the humble ones are actually DOING things. They're not The Catholic League, they're not obsessed with abortion.
|by Anonymous||reply 278||08/06/2015|
I was raised Catholic but my family was very much 'cafeteria catholics' meaning we went to church all the time but we followed the beliefs and teachings we liked, and ignored the ones we didn't feel were in keeping with our moral views like homosexuality, divorce, birth control and condoms.
In High School I really struggled with my sexuality even though I knew my parents weren't going to kick me out if I came out, I wasn't comfortable being gay. We had a fantastic chaplain Fr. Robert and I met him one day in the chapel and I came out to him and rather than do the whole fire and brimstone thing with me or preach the value of celibacy he talked about how the church had moved away from debating morality to an obsession with authority and it was that obsession with authority that prevented many in the church from 'hearing the call of the spirit.' Reading between the lines I knew he was basically saying he didn't agree on the church's teaching on homosexuality (and likely others). He also said to me that I must pursue happiness and not spend my life rejecting myself which would only lead to trouble.
|by Anonymous||reply 279||08/06/2015|
[quote] not all these self-proclaimed inquisitors or "good Catholic" police
If you ever need to laugh your tits off listening to medieval Catholic talibanism, look up Michael Voris on Youtube and listen to any of his Church Militant vids...
Whenever he talks about gays, that's the real fun... Makes Bill O'Reilly look sane.
|by Anonymous||reply 280||08/06/2015|
R279 illustrates that not is all black and white with Catholics, as is my experience, and you have to find the right home for yourself in the church. A Jesuit friend of mine warned me against making this mistake, telling me that when he was in seminary and learning to take confessions, he had a desperate mother who had several children already and came to confession distraught at the idea of having another child. Let's just say the guidance and absolution given was absolutely, positively pro-choice and in the interest of this mother.
|by Anonymous||reply 281||08/06/2015|
Back in college I dated a guy whose brother was a priest and he was terrified of coming out to him. In fact he came out to his whole family long before coming out to his brother. When he finally did come out his brother was upset not because he was gay, but because he told everyone else long before. The priest did tell him he should be celibate, but it was too late by that point we were having sex like crazy. I met the priest a number of times and once during a family vacation we had a very deep talk and I told him that one day he was going to have to choose between being a priest and being a brother because at some point he's going to meet someone he's going to want to make a serious commitment with or even marry and if you're not a part of that the door will be slammed in your face. Anyways we broke up not long after that and I haven't seen that friend since college ended years ago and I've often wondered what happened to him.
|by Anonymous||reply 282||08/06/2015|
R281 What you just said gives the crazy, traditionalist Catholic crowd the ammo to hate on Jesuits... They love that... Some of them were really fretting when a Jesuit became Pope... The whole "who am I to judge" bit is very Jesuitical...
These traditionalist Catholics would loooooove to shut down the Society of Jesus and defrock every single Jesuit priest... You have no clue how fucking unhinged they are...!
I know I had said above to listen to Michael Voris to get a feel for how crazy these nuts are, but since I know no one will unless I bring them to it... Here it is... How the nuts trash and defame the more SENSIBLE church.
|by Anonymous||reply 283||08/06/2015|
Frankly, those people can go fuck themselves. The true shame isn't those people, it's money that funds them and gives the lunatic fringe disproportionate voice that drowns out those of us who are more progressive. The Cold War fight against atheism with Polish St. John Paul II as their leader brought these folks out, with John Birch society types funding them. We just have to let them play out, just as we have to let the St. John Paul II nasties die out. This is what I mean when I say the church moves at a glacial pace. I think Pope Francis is far more progressive than he lets on (not so sure about gay matrimony, but I think he's ok with more gay participation in the church than St. John Paul II and Benedict allowed), but is shrewd enough to know how much change the curia can take.
|by Anonymous||reply 284||08/06/2015|
This is even a better laugh... Neo-con Catholic nut to all gay priests (even those who are NOT sexually active): GTFO... Go work out your "depravity" elsewhere...
|by Anonymous||reply 285||08/06/2015|
R283 I have a family friend whose son is a catholic priest and not long after Pope Francis became pope I bumped into the priest when he was visiting town and you would have thought the world was coming to an end based on this guy's reaction to a Jesuit being pope. He really thought Francis was going to turn the church into some ultra-liberal left wing thing.
R284 Francis is certainly more liberal than his immediate two predecessors. When he was a Cardinal in Argentina he was open to supporting gay civil unions but not willing to change the traditional view of marriage. I think his greatest asset is he's open to change or at the very least have serious discussions about change. He seems to want a more democratic church where individual dioceses and countries have more leeway in their practices (similar to the Anglican Communion).
|by Anonymous||reply 286||08/06/2015|
R286 YES !!! To them, the Jesuits are the enemy because they study and think for themselves and refuse to regurgitate the template bullshit that some closeted queen in Rome drafted in between saying Tridentine mass and taking loads on a sling !!! They hate hate hate the Jesuits (or anyone who refuses cult thinking and wants to use his own brain).
|by Anonymous||reply 287||08/06/2015|
The orders are where it's at. The Franciscans and Jesuits are the best. Father Richard Rohr and Father Mychal Judge, "The Saint of 9/11" are Franciscans. A gay Irish-Catholic made a great doc on Judge, and it's on Hulu.
|by Anonymous||reply 288||08/06/2015|
R288 I've seen this documentary on Netflix as well. Fr. Judge was a very courageous man
|by Anonymous||reply 289||08/06/2015|
While the Pope hasn't changed any Catholic teaching or even challenged any Catholic doctrine, clearly he's trying to focus the Church's mission on respecting, ministering to and loving people for who they are - period. This confuses the conservatives who feel more comfortable judging others (gay, divorced, those who have had abortions, etc.) but Francis isn't about that. How refreshing!
|by Anonymous||reply 290||08/08/2015|
R290 I agree that Francis is trying to change the church's tone as being less judgmental and more welcoming but the teachings remain the same. Even small changes like allowing divorced people to receive communion or may changing words like disordered or evil when describing homosexuality would be a positive step.
Francis is a pope of words but not a pope of action.
|by Anonymous||reply 291||08/10/2015|
The point is if he does act, there are many forces that could make his overall papacy difficult. I do no envy his job.
|by Anonymous||reply 292||08/10/2015|
I had a sexual relationship with a priest for a few months about two years ago. One really bizarre thing was that I, along with his family and friends call him Father Dave (dave isn't his real name), we could never just call him Dave. Is this a normal thing?
|by Anonymous||reply 293||09/03/2015|
Yes, it's a normal thing.
|by Anonymous||reply 294||09/03/2015|
Yes it's normal. My Uncle was a priest and we always called him Uncle Father Chris growing up. My mom and my aunts still called him just Chris but I think it's up to the priest.
|by Anonymous||reply 295||09/03/2015|
As predicted, Francis is facing a huge backlash against a largely conservative vatican over his reforms to policy on abortion, divorce and remarriage. Looks like Francis is also trying to change the church's stance on homosexuality too.
|by Anonymous||reply 296||09/08/2015|
Hey with the pope in town, anyone know where the priestly orgies will be happening? I'm guessing NYC?
|by Anonymous||reply 297||09/22/2015|
|by Anonymous||reply 298||10/08/2015|
Pope Benedict dished out a lot of shit to nuns who were active at all. IIRC, he wanted every nun under some priest, who would essentially manage all her activities, so she couldn't engage in anything to help the poor without express approval. I think Francis has been more supportive of the actions of these nuns in working to support the poor even if some of the actions appeared more political.
|by Anonymous||reply 299||12/28/2015|
Those Bel Ami Inside the Vatican porn vids. I wonder if they had inside help from some of the priests or Swiss guards and were serviced handsomely for their cooperation?
|by Anonymous||reply 300||12/28/2015|
R269, why are you on this thread?
|by Anonymous||reply 301||12/28/2015|
Interestingly enough, R271, that "sex is only for procreation" meme does not seem to apply to heterosexual couples who are infertile. No priest would tell them they are sinning by having sex even if there is less than a snowball's chance in hell that they could procreate.
|by Anonymous||reply 302||12/28/2015|
Anything is possible.
Women in their 40s can have children without fertility drugs.
Never say never.
There is nothing greater than the love between a man and a woman except for analogue vinyl sound reproduction.
|by Anonymous||reply 303||12/28/2015|
R291, that's not necessarily the case. Assume he made all the changes you are talking about. What do you think would happen to him? And if he was no longer pope, how long do you think those changes would last? Asking everyone not to judge and to minister instead has the wingnuts choking, but does not violate any church teachings. And he knows that will bring people back into the church, including those contemplating the priesthood.
|by Anonymous||reply 304||12/28/2015|
R303, that's not the case, unless it takes place in a petri dish. Science is developed enough about infertility to know when one or both people in a couple are infertile and, short of another parent, there will be no child.
|by Anonymous||reply 305||12/28/2015|