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Transgenderism freaks me the fuck out

I don't feel like their fight is my fight. There, I said it. What do you think?

by Anonymousreply 181Last Thursday at 11:46 AM

I never understand why transgenders are lumped together with lesbians and gay men and bisexuals.%0D %0D as in LGBT

by Anonymousreply 111/16/2010

Well it's about time we talked about this!

by Anonymousreply 211/16/2010

We get lumped together with them because in the eyes' of the mainstream public we're all freaks in a pod.

by Anonymousreply 311/16/2010

Anyone who says "There, I said it" is not someone with whom I want to be affiliated.

Catty bitch.

by Anonymousreply 411/16/2010

Any minority that is discriminated against is my fight. %0D %0D Surely you can see why it is necessary to make a stand for equal treatment in our society before the law and every other way. Why would you expect anyone in the mainstream heterosexual community to stand up for you, if you cannot stand up for transexuals, or Jews, or Muslims, or people of color, or effeminate men? How exactly are your rights more important than their rights, or anyone elses.%0D %0D Jefferson (I think he is the originator of this concept) said that the continuous expansion of "all men are created equal" to those who are not equal in society (and he had the new US in mind), the better off that society is. Clinton has often repeated it, and of course Lincoln used it all the time. %0D %0D Jefferson of course had slaves, and he intended that they should be free some day well aware of the paradox of his actions. Odd guy that Jefferson.%0D %0D So yes, the rights of the transgender community are your fight. I suggest you ask yourself why they freak you out. They certainly do not freak me out- cannot imagine why they would. Neither do face lifts or any kind of surgery freak me out. As for their desire to change sex, who am I to say?

by Anonymousreply 511/16/2010

r-5 said it right. Anyone discriminated against as we are is part of our fight. Equality is a comprehensive issue and Gay rights is one among many.

by Anonymousreply 611/16/2010

Our haters lump us all in as queer, so yes, it is my fight.

by Anonymousreply 711/16/2010

I do, because to disassociate ourselves from them is no different than people who disassociate themselves from us. They say the same thing: Homos freak me the fuck out!%0D %0D So how are you any different from homophobes?%0D %0D Here's the thing. Unlike other minority groups, people who are discriminated against or hated because of sexuality or gender issues do not have cohesive groups of support already in place. If you are black, Chinese, Hispanic, Jewish..you are born into an already established support group.%0D %0D Transgenders are even more isolated than homosexuals, so to eliminate them makes us the same as those who condemn us.

by Anonymousreply 811/16/2010

[quote] Anyone who says "There, I said it" is not someone with whom I want to be affiliated.%0D %0D I'm with you, R4. %0D %0D And in actual conversation, does anybody ever really say "There, I said it"? Or is it only on Datalounge -- and in really badly written melodramas?%0D %0D Oh, wait...they're the same thing.

by Anonymousreply 911/16/2010

[quote]Any minority that is discriminated against is my fight. %0D %0D Fine. I'm for fair treatment of the Gurkhas, too, but while I may identify with them, I don't identify as one of them. Nor do I think another letter should be tacked onto some ridiculous rainbow alphabet construct.%0D %0D Gay and Lesbian... fine. The rest of the LGBTQIA cornucopia are part-timers or something else entirely.

by Anonymousreply 1011/16/2010

So, OP, can you tell me: What is it that you do (as in a specific action) for gay and lesbian rights? And why is this specific action made more difficult or less effective by the inclusion of transgendered people?

Be specific now.

by Anonymousreply 1111/16/2010

R5 sounds perfectly lovely, but is a bunch of bullshit. Every oppressed group faces its own specific challenges. We can empathize with one another, and we can be supportive. But we are not all one amorphous group of people whose struggle is the same. That's fuzzy headed thinking by people who mean wdell, but don't get it.%0D %0D The concept of "transgender" is not a simple one, and it's not without controversy. The idea that there is an essential, intrisic thing called gender, beyond biological differences, is something that can be looked upon in many ways. you could certainly attribute it to sexism, for example. lots of gay people grow up thinking they're the "wrong" gender, because of homophobia and the invisibility of positive images of gay/lesbian people. Patriarchy creates a very strong binary in terms of gender, one that attributes very specific behaviors and charactistics to the classifications of "woman" and "man". So the fact that some people feel they were born in the "wrong" body could easily be seen as damage...something that stems from having grown up in a society that doesn't tolerate gendered behavioral differences and sexuality differences.%0D %0D A lot of hospitals stopped performing "transgender" operations, because they found that recipients were often no happier after gender reassignment surgery, something that increased the risk for suicide. A lot of times people find that their biology did not need to be "fixed", but that they actually needed to accept that they just didn't conform to rigid gender conformity in regards to their behavior.%0D %0D Transgender is not a civil rights issue, it's a mental health one. There is no such thing as being born in the "wrong" body. It's a matter of people being unable to accept that they prefer feminine BEHAVIOR, even though they are biologically MALE. a lot of transgender surgery was stopped because it became apparent that people were using expensive surgery to try to "fix" the fact that they were self loathing because they didn't conform to gendered behavioral expectations.%0D %0D So NO, it's not an issue for us. Just the opposite. If we argue that gendered behavior is intrinsic, then we're making the homophobe's point for them...the idea that there's a right and wrong way for women and men to behave, and that behavior is essential and intrinsic. Not orientation...but BEHAVIOR. If we argue that people should go to any lengths to alter themselves to conform to societal expectations of appropriate gender behavior, then we accept the notion that gender is fixed and instrinic...and that notion does not benefite GLB people in ANY way.

by Anonymousreply 1211/16/2010

Multiple links required, R12.

by Anonymousreply 1311/16/2010

R13, no they're not. You can look up the information yourself. Entire books have been written on the subject, and it's well known that many hospitals in the US stopped performing the surgeries.

by Anonymousreply 1411/16/2010

[quote]I don't feel like their fight is my fight.%0D %0D What is your fight OP? What is "our" fight? After all, some of us fuck closeted married men. Are they are part of our fight?

by Anonymousreply 1511/16/2010

R15- no one asks the we include an "M" in the GLB designation, to stand for "married men we fuck". And YEAH, when we fight for gay rights, we are fighting for closet cases too.%0D %0D The "T" is the debate here.%0D %0D And here's an interesting link.

by Anonymousreply 1611/16/2010

R12, that's fine for you to have that OPINION. You are welcome to it. But it's just an opinion. I agree with much of it, by the way.%0D %0D But ultimately the choice is the individual's to make whether or not to change gender. It's not mine. And it isn't yours either.%0D %0D Again, I can understand not wanting to help fight for a blanket support of TG rights. But I don't get behind the idea that a TG operation is a sign of self-loathing and an attempt to gender conform. I've met about 20 TG's personally in my line of work, and while some are indeed head cases, many are actually very happy with their change in gender, and it seems to work for them. It's all about gender identity for many of them, and has nothing to do with wishing to placate the masses regarding their behavior.%0D %0D Go ahead and withhold support for TG rights, but don't assume your opinion has anything to do with empirical evidence. You certainly aren't informed enough if all you can do is spout and rebut any request for links, stating that it's common knowledge. %0D %0D It's just way more complex than you can comprehend, I think.

by Anonymousreply 1711/16/2010

[quote] and it's well known that many hospitals in the US stopped performing the surgeries.

Johns-Hopkins is the only hospital that closed their gender clinic for surgeries.

by Anonymousreply 1811/16/2010

I really don't think about it OP. And don't really care if they want to be included in gay rights. Why do you as a marginalized person want to further marginalize other people?

by Anonymousreply 2011/16/2010

I voted no

by Anonymousreply 2111/16/2010

OP I voted yes on your poll, for the reasons others have stated. We're all in the same boat, at least as far as public opinion goes.

I'll admit I don't entirely "get" the desire for sex reassignment surgery. But even my most liberal straight friends don't quite understand homosexuality, either.

by Anonymousreply 2211/16/2010

I think we can fight for transgender rights without blurring it to be the same as gay rights. They are distinct, which is why the trans-inclusive approach to ENDA has been an absolute disaster for the larger gay and bisexual community.

by Anonymousreply 2311/16/2010

[quote]the trans-inclusive approach to ENDA

????

They gotten more protections at my job than I have.

Granted, they changed after they were employed, but I was outed and no lawyer would help me...

by Anonymousreply 2411/16/2010

r12 speaks for me.

I think it's a mental health issue.

by Anonymousreply 2511/16/2010

I voted "no". Sorry, its just a bridge too far and frankly I think it hampers the cause. Do trans people deserve equality? Yes. Are they currently, at this crucial moment when we're talking DADT and gay marriage, a drag on the cause? Yes. I'm sorry, you can be pie in the sky, or you can be realistic. They are an important, but separate cause.

And, frankly, I don't see it as the same thing. Gays and lesbians, by definition, DO NOT want to change gender, they need/want to love the same gender. I think that is completely different than wanting/needing to change gender. As a gay man, the last thing I want is to lose my penis, broad shoulders and facial hair, to be blunt.

I think the closer we get to public acceptance, trans will be the one red flag that bigots will use to keep gay marriage, etc, from going all the way.

by Anonymousreply 2611/17/2010

"Transgender is not a civil rights issue, it's a mental health one. There is no such thing as being born in the "wrong" body. It's a matter of people being unable to accept that they prefer feminine BEHAVIOR, even though they are biologically MALE. a lot of transgender surgery was stopped because it became apparent that people were using expensive surgery to try to "fix" the fact that they were self loathing because they didn't conform to gendered behavioral expectations." BINGO. R12 I'm going to use your post in future arguments.

by Anonymousreply 2711/17/2010

[italic]Any minority that is discriminated against is my fight. [/italic]

I hate to have to break this to you, but many of those people who you are fighting for, will not fight for you.

by Anonymousreply 2811/17/2010

[italic]Transgender is not a civil rights issue, it's a mental health one. There is no such thing as being born in the "wrong" body. It's a matter of people being unable to accept that they prefer feminine BEHAVIOR, even though they are biologically MALE. a lot of transgender surgery was stopped because it became apparent that people were using expensive surgery to try to "fix" the fact that they were self loathing because they didn't conform to gendered behavioral expectations."[/italic]

Then how is homosexuality not a mental heath issue too?

by Anonymousreply 2911/17/2010

What I do think?

I think you're an asshole with boring, predictable opinions and smug catchphrases instead of reasoning.

by Anonymousreply 3011/17/2010

Why do all the really fugly men become transsexual "women" and then fuck women?

by Anonymousreply 3111/17/2010

Uh...R12, not too long ago, homosexuality was considered a mental health issue as well.

by Anonymousreply 3211/17/2010

"Sorry, its just a bridge too far and frankly I think it hampers the cause."

You think ditching the transgenders is going to help you with straight people? They're not even going to notice.

by Anonymousreply 3311/17/2010

While I support transgender rights, it is a distinct, severable issue from LGB rights. I think the movements should work together when practical, but also keep their separate characters. Also, I do think that we should be careful not to lump transgender issues with gay/bisexual issues, since there is an erroneous stereotype that gays want to be or act like the opposite sex.

by Anonymousreply 3411/17/2010

OP, you're an ass. As someone who's been marginalized, you should empathize with transgendered people. They have it even rougher in some cases. Get some compassion.

by Anonymousreply 3710/12/2013

I'm not surprised by the indifference here. Proportionally, there as as many gay jerks as their are straight.

by Anonymousreply 3810/12/2013

It used to bother me when women and Black people said that gay rights wasn't their fight.

As far as I've ever been able to tell, the fight for equality and civil rights is just one fight, fought over and over again. You either believe that we are all created equal and deserve the same civil rights or you don't.

I'm happy to stand with the Trans people and I hope they're happy to stand with me.

by Anonymousreply 3910/12/2013

I backed way off of being friendly with transgendered people over a decade ago. I don't think their fight is my fight. The ones I have had experience with get angry if they feel slighted and they seem to be extremely sensitive. A few that I've known seem to only identify as being straight and seem to not need to be involved in LGBT stuff.

by Anonymousreply 4010/12/2013

No. I think gender identity issues are a mental health issues that have absolutely nothing to do with homosexuality.

by Anonymousreply 4110/12/2013

*themselves

by Anonymousreply 4310/12/2013

Re: R23 and R40

From the comments I've read on the net, trans folks are fine with gays being discriminated against as long as they are, too. "Fire their homo asses until I can use womens' rooms!" Many of them, who identify as straight, lamented that the marriage equality fight was at their expense.

by Anonymousreply 4410/12/2013

They seem very attached to old heterosexual gender stereotypes. They value that more than anything.

by Anonymousreply 4510/12/2013

I guess I'm just too young and hippie-dippie. I don't discredit anyone's negative experiences with some transgendered people; I just have had different experiences. But I do believe we all share the fight for civil rights, whether or not some members of different groups don't feel that (which I've seen across the board).

by Anonymousreply 4610/12/2013

The OP is the type of asshole that gapes wide in order to spread his shit as far as possible. Keep it.

R12 is a depraved know-nothing who thinks her declarations are an indication of something other than smug ignorance and bias. They're not.

Of course the struggle of transgendered people is part of my struggle as a gay man. Why? Because any denial of validation, respect, equality and provision of services necessary for well-being based on historical, social and legal reasons concerns me directly.

I understand the categorical differences between us. But I reject the glib and cruel distinctions of "They're sick and I'm not," and "They are fantasists and make gay people look bad by association."

Many transgendered people live superficially "gay" lives for obvious reasons. We have always banded together for mutual support. The desire to fragment the LGBT community, ostracize people as outsiders, or cravenly attempt to shun people as a P.R. move, is counterproductive and hurtful.

And the creeps, such as the OP, who are "freaked out" (bullshit) by transgendered people and who reject their place in our community are exactly the creeps who avidly include desirable heterosexuals as part of their in-group associations. I have no problem with that. The more we include, rather than exclude, others concerning our sense of belonging, the more we move towards a more seamless society. You don't achieve social cohesion by trying to cut off the people who are in most need of understanding and care.

by Anonymousreply 4710/12/2013

R40, what does that mean for a trans "to only identify as being straight"?

by Anonymousreply 4810/12/2013

I agree. Transsexuality is not aginst traditional norms, it is FOR traditional norms. That's why one of the most homophobic countries in the world - Iran - has no problems with transsexuality since these people conform to heteronormative society!

by Anonymousreply 4910/12/2013

R48, that means trans people are changing sex only out of their own homophobia and "straight" guilt.

by Anonymousreply 5010/12/2013

There is strength in numbers. If every group that is marginalized based on sexuality, sexual identity or gender identity tried to campaign separately, they would get less support.

If someone is too ignorant to tell the difference between a transgender person and a gay person then why do you value their approval?

If you do not want to be associated with a certain group, chances are that you yourself have feelings of discrimination against them.

by Anonymousreply 5110/12/2013

I agree with R1 R23 R24 R26 R27 R28 R33 R34 R40 and especially R42.

I probably agree with R12, but he really needs to use paragraphs.

by Anonymousreply 5210/12/2013

It's not about you, Mary OP!

by Anonymousreply 5310/12/2013

So why don't we just call it the LGBTBAHFMEPH (Lesbian Gay Bisexual Transgender Black Asian Hispanic Female Middle Eastern Physically Handicapped) community? Might as well become a catch all for every marginalized group in existence...

by Anonymousreply 5510/12/2013

I think that's the very point OP is trying to make, R53.

Trans is not about gay. Gay is not about trans. There is no overlap, no gay/trans Venn diagram. The two are completely separate circles, no matter how much some of you feel the need to make them intersect.

by Anonymousreply 5610/12/2013

I just use G, R55.

by Anonymousreply 5710/12/2013

r8, PC nut job

by Anonymousreply 6110/12/2013

R59, if you agree with R47, you owe R58 an apology.

by Anonymousreply 6310/12/2013

R64 My mistake.

Do you really think there are gay people who stay in the closet so they won't be mistaken for trans? I never thought about them until this year when I started reading about them on DL. I basically agree with you, though. They have nothing to do with me, a gay man.

by Anonymousreply 6510/12/2013

R58 here. I'm confused, why am I homophobic? I am a trans ally and have trans friends, and I defend their dignity as human beings. That makes me homophobic? Please explain, as I am genuinely confused.

For the record, I am a gay man.

by Anonymousreply 6610/12/2013

[quote]I backed way off of being friendly with transgendered people over a decade ago. I don't think their fight is my fight. The ones I have had experience with get angry if they feel slighted and they seem to be extremely sensitive.

Well how the hell would you feel if you couldn't find the fucking bathroom?

by Anonymousreply 6710/12/2013

R65, just read recent Wenetworth Miller interview and how he didn't want to come ut because effeminate transexuals have taken over the gay movement and left no place for MEN. I tell you, that is exactly how 99% closeted men think. And why there are so many "straight" men who live rampant gay life but will never come out, even to themselves!

by Anonymousreply 6910/12/2013

That is a revelation, R69. Thank you for elucidating further.

by Anonymousreply 7010/12/2013

Okay, R69 (et trolldar al) is satire. I get it. Very funny! Well done!

by Anonymousreply 7110/12/2013

r69 nails it!!

by Anonymousreply 7310/12/2013

oh yes, let's pick on Trans-people.

So very brave, OP.

by Anonymousreply 7410/12/2013

If you had loved ones who were transgender, and truly cared for them, you would, indeed, see it as your cross to bear. I used to think like you. Then, a trans woman and I forged a relationship; I believe that her queer identity (sorry if you don't like my terminology--it is generally accepted as appropriate in my circles, which is comprised mainly of other PhD profs) is as valid is mine, and she feels the same. We fight each other's fights, just as I fight the fight for all other marginalized persons (I work in mental and behavioral health care).

There is, almost assuredly, nothing I can say on a forum such as this that could possible sway you. I don't even know why it matters to me what you think; but, I can tell you that my friend and those I have (I now believe) been blessed (by whatever force) to become close, feel fulfilled and more-whole to join in a spirit of fighting for each other's rights to just be.

by Anonymousreply 7510/12/2013

r74, are you equating being Trans with being weak? I am scared to death of real bulldykes who are transgendered . Also, I know some "female" trannies who would give Bruce Willis a run for his money

by Anonymousreply 7610/12/2013

There is so much fear on display from people who are afraid of being 'lumped together' with trans people. If you are truly comfortable with your sexuality and your masculinity, then what do you have to prove?

Who mistakes gay people for trans people these days? Is that really an ongoing issue in your life?

I personally admire the bravery it would take to be undergo a sex change. More bravery than the people who are posting on here could understand.

by Anonymousreply 7810/12/2013

R77, I live in the "real world." I was just noting that Queer Theory and the term Queer, applies to all LGBTQIA persons. Call me pretentious if you like, but I can assure you, I came from absolutely nothing and worked my ass off. There is no ivory tower shit here--I see 10-15% of my clients for free, though I don't have to, because I know what it is like to be in that place. Like my message or not, it really should not matter to me. It does, though, because you and I are against a powerful enemy of institutionalized marginalization, stigmatization, and oppression (just as those trans folk are, as well).

by Anonymousreply 8010/12/2013

R78, would you want to be "lumped together" with people who have chronic diarrhea? And yes, homosexuality is still mistaken with transsexuality among the large majority of men. Whenever you see a "homophobic" comment it's usually people bashing effeminacy and not the attraction itself

by Anonymousreply 8110/12/2013

[quote]LGBTQIA

WTF? Aren't you leaving out some letters? Where does it end?

by Anonymousreply 8210/12/2013

Lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, questioning, intersexed, asexual

by Anonymousreply 8310/12/2013

LGBTABCDEFJHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ

by Anonymousreply 8410/12/2013

How many close female friends do you guys have. I would imagine that there is a correlation here.

by Anonymousreply 8510/12/2013

How many close male friends do you ladies have. I would imagine there is not a correlation there.

by Anonymousreply 8610/12/2013

That is why R1, I prefer Queer to Lgbt or LGBTQ or lgbtqi as I believe we are up to. I agree with R5 but insofar as OP may be saying TG is hard to identify with or relate too, his position is understandable. Minority positions are often like that and there's a big world out there.

by Anonymousreply 8710/12/2013

R80, jesus Christ

by Anonymousreply 8810/12/2013

Transgenders see themselves as having a physical deformity that requires medical procedures to correct. That is far different than the way I and 100% of my gay friends see ourselves.

by Anonymousreply 8910/12/2013

If I were a chick, I'd be straight and normal, so please, cut off my junk.

by Anonymousreply 9110/12/2013

Some syndicated radio show recently reported that at least one college admission application asked applicants to identify by sexual identity, offering 9 possibilities. Any idea what those would be? Here's a guess:

Gay male - same sex attraction

Lesbian - same sex attraction

Bisexual

Transgender to female - opposite sex attraction

Transgender to female - same sex attraction

Transgender to male - opposite sex attraction

Transgender to male - same sex attraction

Asexual

Pansexual

by Anonymousreply 9310/13/2013

R91, thats exactly how trans people think. that's why they're our enemies.

by Anonymousreply 9410/13/2013

Can't I just have a BLT!

by Anonymousreply 9510/13/2013

The annoying thing I observe frequently, is that those on the "non-traditional gender spectrum", and their shrill supporters seem to do NOTHING except sit at home decreeing certain descriptive words "humiliating" and "insulting", while substituting the correct ones! These change weekly, and without notice, turning supporters into the enemy in moments!

Lots of people are pre-op, or post-op, but many more are no-op, and just prefer to live as the gender (or non-gender, or genderfuck) that feels authentic. Of course asking them, "Would you prefer to be addressed as a man, or a woman" is the same as being a hateful murderer, so don't go there!

I said to one woman I know - who for some reason feels she is a boy, but does not work at looking much like a boy, "If you don't lighten up and quit being such a pain in the ass, I'm going back to calling you a 'butch' like I did when we met!" Happily, she's a funny and warm person, and I made my point. Be who you are by all means, but stop pretending you don't realize we live in a binary gender world. Make it easy on the rest of us by helping us along without the vitriol, we're just trying to get it right!

by Anonymousreply 9610/13/2013

Yet allowing for male circumcision, or being insufficiently an "intact-ivist" is a moral outrage, but cheering on the major trauma of gender reassignment surgery is a-ok!

by Anonymousreply 9710/13/2013

For fuck's sake, the whole movement is about the rights of SEXUAL MINORITIES, and that includes transgendered people whether you like them or not. It's not just about you.

Personally I have a hell of a lot more in common with transgender individuals than bisexual ones. We should drop the B entirely.

by Anonymousreply 9810/13/2013

I think identifying ourselves with the disorders doesn't help gay people advance their own rights and interests.

by Anonymousreply 9910/13/2013

I don't identify with bisexual people but I still advocate for equal rights for them. And we don't deserve equal rights if we're only fighting for our own interests. For an adult to legally decide how their sexual identity manifests itself mustn't depend on my approval or anyone else's to be protected.

by Anonymousreply 10010/13/2013

There are trans people who identify as gay.

by Anonymousreply 10110/13/2013

"If you were a tree, what kind would you be?"

by Anonymousreply 10210/13/2013

The idea of sex-changes and transexuality started in an era when homosexuality was still classified as a mental disorder and feminism was pretty much unheard of. It was in this distinctly unliberated era of warped ideas about gender roles and sexuality that the idea and practice of sex changes emerged. Then came a bunch of people making money off of it, from the "doctors" performing operations to phds sitting universities creating courses and dogma, to young adult writers promoting it to confused kids to mainstream media seizing it as the latest entertainment.

by Anonymousreply 10310/13/2013

R103 is Joseph Goebbels!

Heil Hitler! Kill the trannys!!!!!

by Anonymousreply 10410/13/2013

Um, I think you missed "straight", R93. Or don't straight people indulge in higher education where you live?

by Anonymousreply 10510/13/2013

I don't know why transgenderism offends all of you. Do you think people would go to such extreme measures if they weren't so uncomfortable in their bodies? It's like you think they are really gay but don't WANT to be gay, so they just cut off their dicks. You really need to educate yourselves. Highly troubling.

by Anonymousreply 10610/13/2013

A majority of MTF transsexuals identify as lesbian post-transition. I don't know the percentage of FTM gay transsexuals, but I would guess it's higher than the national average.

This means AT MINIMUM that a high number of transgender folks ARE homosexual, so by definition their fight is ours as well.

But beyond that, a huge number of transgenders don't have clarity what's really going on inside their brains and bodies. The vast majority start out identifying as gay or lesbian before they say, "OK, not gay, I see now I'm transgender."

In other words, a majority of transgender people start out identifying as gay, and very many transgender people end up identifying as gay. With that in mind, how in the world can you make the trans struggle separate from the gay/lesbian struggle?

by Anonymousreply 10710/13/2013

I agree R106.

by Anonymousreply 10810/13/2013

[quote]Anyone discriminated against as we are is part of our fight.

No. A common bond of being "discriminated against as we are" may make allies of people in similar situations, but it doesn't make them the same group of people. There has to be more in common for a class of people that being discriminated against.

by Anonymousreply 10910/13/2013

Transgendered people are amongst my heroes. If they can get out of bed every day and put a smile on their face forr the world then so can I . Rock on.

by Anonymousreply 11010/13/2013

Yes, Charlie is right.

I don't understand the desire to be transgender, but that makes no difference. They're not hurting anyone, and they are discriminated against and persecuted, just as blacks and gays are. They should be able to live their lives free of oppression.

by Anonymousreply 11110/13/2013

[quote]I don't understand the desire to be transgender

You seem to think it's a matter of choice. It's not.

by Anonymousreply 11210/13/2013

I didn't know charlie was trans.

by Anonymousreply 11310/13/2013

Do the majority of MTF transexuals really identify as lesbian? I've only met a few transpeople, but the FTMs always seem to end up back in the lesbian dating pool (though often partnering with social justice types who identify as "queer" rather than "gay") and the MTFs usually are left to make do with being fetishized by "straight" guys who want nothing to do with them in public.

by Anonymousreply 11410/13/2013

What if told you that you can support transgender rights and still think it is a separate fight from gay rights. Lumping T to LGB confuses people and has probably done more harm than good for both movements.

by Anonymousreply 11510/13/2013

My biggest reticence is that cutting the body does not feel natural to me (I include cosmetic surgery too). It feels wrong somehow to support another person's loathing of themselves as they are. However they wish to behave or view themselves is fine by me, but the cutting part is hard to swallow. They were already given a perfectly good body. It's even not my preference to mess with intersexed bodies, because I believe there is wisdom in nature. But that's another subject, I know.

I'm glad this was brought up. I've been trying hard to accept transpeople. I want to be inclusive, but I can't get my head around mutilation, society paying for it, and supporting hating the way one's body is. I can extrapolate that concept out many ways. I feel I was born into the wrong socio-economic group and I'd like a re-assignment, please. I don't think my nose represents me accurately, so I require a better nose, a nose that's more Me. Society at large, I'd like you to pay for that change, while patting me on the back for being my authentic self.

I realize gender and sexuality are considerably more charged than my glib examples above. I'm not trying to offend. I feel for transfolk, and I can't claim to know the perfect outcome. I read a cis privilege list one day, where trans people wrote out their ideal treatment in society. It was both the most entitled piece of shit ever, and sad, showing how much trans are discriminated against in subtle ways.

They're trying to fix the law to allow trans people in the bathrooms they prefer, but coming from a woman's perspective, any old perv (who wasn't really trans) could hold up the trans card for easy access to prey upon women in a room where they take their pants down, or in a locker room where they get naked. Whether they believe they're women or not, they have a physiological strength advantage over people born as women, which could be scary and unacceptable to the very large quantity of women who've experienced sex abuse in their lives. Much though I want to be inclusive, I'll go by my gut feel and if someone doesn't feel right or I feel vulnerable, I'm outta there - if s/he doesn't prevent my passage. Sorry to be a drama queen with the extreme example, but it's a real concern.

There are so many things down the road that could be problems. It's a very big deal that post-op people are still commonly unhappy and prone to suicide. That shows more research is needed. I think it's more important to prevent suicide and work with the individuals in question, fostering their health, before any body cutting.

by Anonymousreply 11610/13/2013

R112, I don't know if it is a choice or not. I have no experience with it. But it doesn't matter to me as far as believing that transgender people deserve equality.

I have met some lesbians who claim their sexual preference IS a choice. So what? Whether it is a choice or not, I believe they deserve to live their lives free of oppression.

by Anonymousreply 11710/13/2013

R116, the bathroom argument is stupid. There is nothing stopping a pervert or rapist from going in the women's bathroom now to "prey" on you. That little woman on the door is giving you a false sense of security if you seriously think that a sign is going to deter someone intent on victimizing someone. Show me one instance of someone claiming to be transsexual to use a bathroom to commit such a crime.

R111, those "lesbians" are idiots. Their orientation is bisexual if they are able to make the "choice." Bisexuality is an orientation no different that heterosexuality and homosexuality, not a preference per se.

by Anonymousreply 11810/13/2013

R118, they say that the "choice" is about more than just sexual attraction, i.e., it's about more than where exactly they fall on the Kinsey scale. There's sometimes a heavy political element involved, for example. Who am I to argue the point?

It doesn't matter wrt equality to me, anyway. Choice or not choice; what's the difference?

by Anonymousreply 11910/13/2013

I don't believe anything that can be corrected surgically is an "ism." Besides, voluntary surgery is a personal choice. If it's successful, no one knows, if it turns out poorly, every one stares and shrieks .

Those are the rules, live with it.

by Anonymousreply 12010/13/2013

The surgeries don't always go as expected. This Belgian chose assisted suicide after his botched operation ~

by Anonymousreply 12110/13/2013

Nothing is being "corrected," R120, just altered.

by Anonymousreply 12210/13/2013

[quote]Joseph Goebbels!...Heil Hitler! Kill the trannys!!!!!

103 didn't advocate killing anyone, as you very well know.

I'd say lying about your opponents and attempting to silence dissenting opinion as you do is far more Nazi-like.

by Anonymousreply 12410/13/2013

I feel like if anyone is being oppressed for no good reason it is my fight.

by Anonymousreply 12510/14/2013

R18--Evergreen College has had an issue with a pre-op MTF trans exposing male genitals in a common dressing room to young girls (there's kids' swimming classes there.) And all the college can do about it is screen off an area for the families. "Civil rights" in this case seems to include indecent exposure in front of minors.

So, yeah, the bathroom/changing room thing can be an issue.

by Anonymousreply 12710/14/2013

Amen 124.

Ad Hominem attacks are typical of an individual or group that knows they can't win on the facts.

And if the name calling and smear tactics don't work the next step is usually an all out attempt to stifle or silence the dissenting view.

It's a hallmark of the totalitarian mindset.

by Anonymousreply 12810/14/2013

I don't know, R127, it seems like a fairly paltry and easily remedied "issue" to me.

The MTF student should be more conscious and discreet when minors are having swimming lessons at the college.

The college should separate minors from adult students whenever possible. This is particularly needed in areas where the minors will be disrobing, like the pool. Banning adult students from the locker rooms during children's swimming lessons would be a simple solution.

There should be curtained off changing areas within the locker rooms anyway. I don't care if people see me strip down at the gym but children should be given the option of a little privacy.

by Anonymousreply 12910/14/2013

[quote]My biggest reticence is that cutting the body does not feel natural to me (I include cosmetic surgery too). It feels wrong somehow to support another person's loathing of themselves as they are.

I used to feel the way you do, until I met someone who explained it in terms of a birth defect. The brain and hormone system developed one way while the rest of the body developed another way. You'd correct a cleft palate, or lop off a sixth toe, surgically fix any other genetic anomaly, wouldn't you?

by Anonymousreply 13010/14/2013

r127 REEEKS of frau.

by Anonymousreply 13110/14/2013

Hormones and surgery don't transition anything, they just create an illusion. And often not a very convincing one, which turns into heartbreak and disappointment for the patient.

Someone else posted about how fake vaginas in a bio male have to be dilated because the body is trying to heal the wound by closing it up. Unbelievable but true.

You can behave and dress the way you want but you can't surgically change your genetic makeup.

by Anonymousreply 13210/14/2013

[quote]You can behave and dress the way you want but you can't surgically change your genetic makeup.

You seem to be forgetting that your genetic makeup has to do with your hormones, brain chemistry, and other chemicals in your body as much as it has to do with your genitals. Surgery is an attempt to bring the physical body in alignment with the chemicals that are telling you who you are, fundamentally.

by Anonymousreply 13310/14/2013

R133, so wouldn't it be a lot easier and safer to fix the brain to match the body?

Why on earth would anyone butcher their body when hormone replacement and meds could align the problem?

by Anonymousreply 13410/14/2013

[quote] You can behave and dress the way you want but you can't surgically change your genetic makeup.

No, but it's none of your business if someone wants to take hormones and have a mastectomy or orchiectomy or more in order to bring the physical body into alignment with the gender they wish to represent.

by Anonymousreply 13510/14/2013

[quote] I would absolutely love, adore, cherish, and even crave a state of being in which you trans would detach yourselves from us.

Many of of would be just as happy divested from the LGB. We never asked to be aligned.

by Anonymousreply 13710/14/2013

You see, it's a medical/psychological issue. I support their being treated fairly where they are treated unfairly but I don't know why they're enjoined with LGB. Political correctness, I suppose.

by Anonymousreply 13810/14/2013

I've known since childhood that I was born into the wrong body -- NOT the wrong gender, but the wrong species. (And if you don't support me, you're a Bigot.)

by Anonymousreply 13910/14/2013

Transgendered is not part of the Gay/Lesbian group, anymore than the NAMBLA guys are part of the GAYS.

by Anonymousreply 14010/14/2013

God help me but what is TLPG?

by Anonymousreply 14110/14/2013

[quote]Surgery is an attempt to bring the physical body in alignment with the chemicals that are telling you who you are, fundamentally.

What chemicals? It's an ignorant, binary gender-obsessed society telling you that you're in the wrong body, and you don't need to internalize this. An otherwise healthy body is not 'wrong'. It's wrong to believe that surgery and hormones can make you what you're not, biologically.

by Anonymousreply 14210/14/2013

I agree that trans people are a whole separate thing. As a gay man I don't associate with them AT ALL and it angers me to be lumped in with them.

by Anonymousreply 14310/14/2013

Gays, lesbians, and transgender people fought side by side at Stonewall. Without their efforts we'd all be closeted, dead, or in jail.

by Anonymousreply 14510/15/2013

Oh, God, that again...

by Anonymousreply 14610/15/2013

.

by Anonymousreply 14710/22/2013

I'm transgender ftm and I'm bisexual. I came out about being bisexual first. It was really hard, I was rejected by the very first person I told and they told me I couldn't be that way, and told me what I "really was." He called me confused. Then later on I came out as a genderfluid. the same exact thing happened. I was told it was too much work to switch bak and forth, and it was stupid. My mom said I was never a boy. She screamed at me and avoided me. She made fun of me. My girlfriend said if I decided I was trans then she wouldn't stay with me, she made fun of transgenders and said "ew" whenever it was mentioned. Now that I've told her I am trans, she actually accepts me, but she's shaky on the topic. It upsets her, a lot. I'm not allowed to express my masculinity. I feel as if I told my mom that I was only a boy she'd kick me out. She makes me wear skirts and heals. She's not aware of my girlfriend. If she were she would make me break up with her because I can't be a "lesbian."

A fight is a fight.

by Anonymousreply 14805/10/2014

r148, you do sound like a confused gay person and are going through what a lot of us go through. You clearly fear rejection by your mom and girlfriend. And you don't fit the gender you were assigned by the culture you were born into.

I wish you well, but it seems to me that 'transitioning' isn't the solution.

by Anonymousreply 14905/10/2014

No

by Anonymousreply 15003/05/2015

[quote]Any minority that is discriminated against is my fight.

The Hmong people in Minnesota and Wisconsin are discriminated against. Girls subjected to genital mutilation in Africa are discriminated against. Dark-skinned free blacks in the American South were sometimes subject to discrimination by light-skinned blacks - and sometimes vice versa. Christian missionaries in parts of the world are discriminated against. Fat people and parents of small children are discriminated against by the evil looks of their fellow airplane passengers.

The act of being discriminated against may inspire sympathy or the taking up of a righteous cause, but it doesn't mean the subjects of discrimination are part of some gay and lesbian fight.

by Anonymousreply 15103/05/2015

Transgender fundamentalism hijacked and defeated a comprehensive gay rights bill in Charlotte this week. They insisted that T rights be passed or no gay rights would be passed. Well, their rigidity got nothing passed.

by Anonymousreply 15203/06/2015

I'm white. I can't magically say I'm black and exhibit a caricature of a black person in order to truly be considered black. Transgenderism is a legitimate mental disorder and for the life of me I can't understand why people want to legitimize a bunch of delusional nutcases. Seriously, how are transgendered people any different from someone who claims they're Jesus, Elvis or the reincarnation of Joan of Arc? If I knew a transgendered person in real life I'd pull their chain by always claiming to be something I'm not. As soon as they attempted to call me out on it, I'd tear them a new one.

by Anonymousreply 15303/06/2015

[quote] If I knew a transgendered person in real life I'd pull their chain by always claiming to be something I'm not. As soon as they attempted to call me out on it, I'd tear them a new one.

You assume that a trans person is actually going to be bothered by how you react to them. That might make you feel like a man inside, but somehow I doubt they will. They’ve likely seen enough silly queens in their day to expect that kind of behavior from the likes of you.

Besides, if you do manage to aggrieve them, they’d probably just take it to your superior, you priss mouthed little salesbottom.

by Anonymousreply 15403/06/2015

[quote]Jefferson of course had slaves, and he intended that they should be free some day well aware of the paradox of his actions.

Then why didn't he free them himself?

by Anonymousreply 15503/06/2015

Because most of the time slaves were better off being slaves then being free and having utterly nothing. No food, no shelter, nothing. Despite Jefferson's goodwill, the time just wasn't right then.

by Anonymousreply 15604/19/2015

I used to work with a F2M transgendered person who had a personality that was a combination of the the worst gay and lesbian cliches - humorless, man-hating dyke and ultra bitchy, John Waters-quoting catty queen.

Was a nightmare to work with and when the time came I did my bit to ensure that he was shown the door.

by Anonymousreply 15704/19/2015

I'm a samegenderite and do not care about those other people.

by Anonymousreply 15804/19/2015

The only people who thing LGBT should include the T are transgenders and people who are too stupid to realize the world of difference between the gay people and transgender people.

by Anonymousreply 16004/19/2015

That's nice, straight guy, now get off this gay board. I notice the trans cause has great appeal to straight people. It's because they never questioned stereotypes about men and women, and are completely indifferent/ignorant about gay liberation. They are ignorant about how deeply transphobic the trans ideology is. They love being loud and liberal about things they don't understand and don't effect them.

by Anonymousreply 16104/19/2015

This is a violent form of gay conversion therapy - gay people should recognize what it is - and fight it. Corrupt medicine/pharma and media are using confused young people and insane adults to promote it and it is getting bigger and bigger - this will be promoted more and more and it will be a form of ethnic cleansing of gay people.

by Anonymousreply 16204/19/2015

All of their agruments are lies - lies about what "men" and "women" are like based on stereotypes, lies about science, lies about history, lies lies lies - the dumb straight people and kids get sucked into it because they are ignorant about it all.

"The meaning of the term transgender is constantly being extended. Before the 1990s, the term used to refer to someone who wanted to change their 'sex' was transsexual. It has transmogrified into a very general term indeed, to include occasional cross-dressers or even those who are seen as not having a 'gender.' The development of this term, and its fast change in meaning, has been so profound as to allow agruments by transactivists that homosexuals are themselves simply a subcategory of transgenders."

There you have it - if you don't want to be eliminated, you should fight this.

by Anonymousreply 16304/19/2015

R160: The only people who thing normal should include gay people are the gays and people who are too stupid to realize the world of difference between the normal people and gay people.

by Anonymousreply 16404/19/2015

1. Despite gains in science, you can never ever be something you're truly not. I honestly don't see how transgendered people are any different than bums on the street who say they're Jesus or Joan of Arc. Transgendered people are mentally ill, yet they're placated because they managed to align themselves early on with gays and lesbians.

2. Most transgendered people consider themselves straight. If they're FTM they prefer women. If they're MTF they prefer men. These people go to extremes to avoid being labeled gay, yet they want sympathy from the gay community?!

GLB. The T's should be on their own; although to maintain relevancy HRC / GLAAD and other national organizations are playing ball (now that gays and lesbians are on the cusp of achieving full equality).

by Anonymousreply 16504/19/2015

Yes, should be Gay, Gay & Lesbian, or GLB. This new aggressive trans ideology is deeply anti-gay, and there is a lot of mental illness around it. The media is using it, too, subtly to attack gay people and progressive gains. HRC/GLAAD are sellouts, supporting ideology that is anti-gay for $$$ - we should break away from them.

by Anonymousreply 16604/19/2015

Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual : "I want to be accepted for who I am."

Trans : "I want to change who I am to be accepted."

by Anonymousreply 16704/19/2015

transgenders should nit be accepted due to being put on earth as either a male or a female for a reason

by Anonymousreply 16805/06/2015

TRANS is permitted under sharia law, homosexuality is punishable by death

by Anonymousreply 16905/06/2015

Or r167

Trans: "I want the world to change and accept my sex fetish."

by Anonymousreply 17005/06/2015

you are all sick and as soon as ISIS takes over they will clean it up since the men in society seem to lack the balls to do it

by Anonymousreply 17105/25/2015

I do think once the battle for equal marriage ends there will be a quiet separation between The Lesbian/Gay/Bisexual and Transgender.

For now a long history of association makes it improbable to go their own separate ways. Once the big obstacle [gay marriage] is removed many identities within the LGBT movement will form a *friendly* but separate movement.

As more tolerance becomes the norm more minorities will [logically] experience acceptance.

Besides, in a few decades from now there won't be an LGBT movement because there won't be a need for it. This whole thread makes for an interesting read though.

Bisexuality will be the majority of the future and women will rise in prominence. The LGBT movement of today [00's - 20] will be consider the stepping stone into that direction.

Sorry I'll stop highjacking this thread now.

by Anonymousreply 17305/25/2015

Here's something that should be obvious: Working on behalf of a minority group is not the same thing as BEING that minority group.

Sure, you can work on behalf of trans rights. But that doesn't make you and your group "T" any more than it makes white or black people who work on behalf of people with disablilities disabled. Similarly if gay and bi people work on behalf of illiterate people, we don't add an "I" to our group acronym.

Drop the T.

by Anonymousreply 17405/27/2015

Your poll is fucked up. I answered "yes" because the headline is "Transgenderism freaks me the fuck out." But your actual question was "Do you think transgenderism is our fight?" And my answer to that is "no."

by Anonymousreply 17505/27/2015

If I identify myself as a cow,should I seek to have horns and udders attached,or seek psychiatric help.This is where gay rights and gay marriage and 40 years of liberal education leads us to,deniers of factual science who believe if I say I'm a unicorn,then I really AM a unicorn.This is how you get an Obama as a president.

by Anonymousreply 176Last Thursday at 10:49 AM

Where did all these needle dick bugfucking right wing stink shits come from?

by Anonymousreply 177Last Thursday at 11:01 AM

waymeanit,when I fight for rights I don't fight for married closet cases who are on the downlow. NOPE.

by Anonymousreply 178Last Thursday at 11:14 AM

No, it does not freak me out and I certainly sympathize with anyone struggling with body dysmorphia.

by Anonymousreply 179Last Thursday at 11:16 AM

Body dysmorphia is not common with lesbians, therefore the argument that all trans are just self-loathing gays is inaccurate. The ftm's you see are mostly asexual or straight women who feel wrong in their bodies.

You would be shocked at how many people feel wrong in their bodies. I'm going to say that the numbers are much, much bigger than reported. And among people who look and seem 'normal.'

by Anonymousreply 180Last Thursday at 11:40 AM

I sympathize with transgendered people and am happy to fight for their rights, BUT, I do agree that we're not fighting the same fight.

by Anonymousreply 181Last Thursday at 11:46 AM
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