A Van Gogh painting has been stolen in Cairo. All the BBC news announcers are pronouncing it Van GOCCCH just like Diane Keaton's insufferable character in MANHATTAN. Just pronounce it Van GOE, douchebags. You still pronounce Liza Minnelli's first name as Leeza and that ain't right, either.
BBC announcers pronouncing Van Gogh like Diane Keaton''s character in MANHATTAN
|by Anonymous||reply 81||August 25, 2010 1:19 PM|
BBC Pronunciation Unit's advice for presenters.
Van Goe isn't correct either.
|by Anonymous||reply 1||August 22, 2010 6:12 AM|
That's the way it's pronounced, dumbass
|by Anonymous||reply 2||August 22, 2010 6:14 AM|
OP - Van Gogh was DUTCH so you pronounce it the Dutch way, not any way you decide YOU want to pronounce it.
And the only person who pronounces "Liza" as "Leeza" is Liza herself in that TERRIBLE Kander and Ebb song. No one has called her Leeza since 1972 -- boy you must be old!
|by Anonymous||reply 3||August 22, 2010 1:58 PM|
So must you, R3.
|by Anonymous||reply 4||August 22, 2010 2:11 PM|
I've never heard anyone other than Americans pronounce it Goe, and Europeans (especially Dutch) think it's either weird, offensive or funny that Yanks say it that way. In Britain it's usually pronounced to sort of rhyme with cough, which isn't correct (hence why newsreaders are told not to say it that way anymore), but it's closer than Goe.
|by Anonymous||reply 5||August 22, 2010 2:17 PM|
[quote]Just pronounce it Van GOE, douchebags.
On a related note, it never fails to make me laugh that Americans pronounce Notre Dame as NOTER DAYEM. It is hard to fathom such unbelievable ignorance.
|by Anonymous||reply 6||August 22, 2010 2:25 PM|
|by Anonymous||reply 7||August 22, 2010 2:31 PM|
Notre Dame says the official pronounciation is NOTER Dame. %0D %0D If you really want to be correct you can call it by its actual name, Notre Dame du Lac.
|by Anonymous||reply 8||August 22, 2010 2:33 PM|
I pronounce the university's name as R6 notes, but in the context of the cathedral I use the French pronunciation.
Those are conventional pronunciations. If one's goal in speaking is to be understood rather than to support pretenses, it seems a rational way to go. I'm not sure how that constitutes ignorance.
|by Anonymous||reply 9||August 22, 2010 2:39 PM|
[quote]Notre Dame says the official pronounciation is NOTER Dame.
Yes, because they are stupid Americans. And catholics.
|by Anonymous||reply 10||August 22, 2010 2:40 PM|
Dear deluded OP: pronouncing that name as 'Van Goe' is as wrong as pronouncing Gouda cheese 'goooda'.
Both words are Dutch, and are constantly mispronounced by stupid, arrogant Americans.
Van Gogh is pronouned 'Fun Gocchhhhh' - 'fun' as in the English word, 'fun'. The 'ch' sound, meanwhile, is typical for Dutch and German. It is produced at the back of your mouth -- try clearing your throat, it's essentially the same sound.
However, 'ch' is uttered more softly than a throat clearing, so you'll have to practice a bit.
Gouda, in case you want to know, is pronounce 'gowduh'.
|by Anonymous||reply 11||August 22, 2010 2:47 PM|
I learned something today. Thank you.
|by Anonymous||reply 12||August 22, 2010 2:54 PM|
[quote]Those are conventional pronunciations. If one's goal in speaking is to be understood rather than to support pretenses, it seems a rational way to go. I'm not sure how that constitutes ignorance.
It's not as though we say Los Angeles with a Spanish pronunciation. But we say Cartagena, we do pronounce the g-e as heh rather than jeh.
|by Anonymous||reply 13||August 22, 2010 2:58 PM|
How about posting a video of a Dutch person saying Van Gogh. I'm going over to You Tube to find one.
|by Anonymous||reply 14||August 22, 2010 3:03 PM|
Haha, I love the extreme arrogance of this dumbass OP.
|by Anonymous||reply 15||August 22, 2010 3:04 PM|
Here it goes. Go to the one minute mark.
|by Anonymous||reply 16||August 22, 2010 3:06 PM|
OP is why we make fun of Americans.
|by Anonymous||reply 17||August 22, 2010 3:28 PM|
It isn't Note-ruh Dahm?
|by Anonymous||reply 18||August 22, 2010 3:30 PM|
So, according to r14/r16's link, it's pronounced: Von Hoccchhh
|by Anonymous||reply 19||August 22, 2010 3:39 PM|
R3, it's true that Brits pronounce Liza as Leeza. The British comic Liza Tarbuck is a good example.
|by Anonymous||reply 20||August 22, 2010 3:41 PM|
And a tasty bit of British zenophobia just at the very end of R14's clip.
|by Anonymous||reply 21||August 22, 2010 4:14 PM|
OP is the typical whiny US bitch: Why can't the world do things as we do them in the US?
|by Anonymous||reply 22||August 22, 2010 4:15 PM|
Whatever. Some things are easy to pronounce the original way and people do, some things are hard and they don't. I don't think it's that bad that people pronounce Van Gogh the way they do. It's actually a hard name to pronounce properly for non-Scottish English speakers. Japanese people have trouble pronouncing some English words correctly because of the way their language works, and we don't (or shouldn't) make fun of them for that.
|by Anonymous||reply 23||August 22, 2010 4:20 PM|
Umm, R23, the thing people are having a go at OP for is his insistence/arrogance that his pronunciation of "Van Goh" is the correct way, even though it is arguably one of the most inaccurate ways to pronounce it. So you'll have to excuse everyone else for quite rightly wanting to put OP in his place.
|by Anonymous||reply 24||August 22, 2010 5:19 PM|
I like the French pronunciation myself-- akin to [italic]Van Gug[/italic] but I can't replicate the exact vowel sound here.
|by Anonymous||reply 25||August 22, 2010 5:24 PM|
Japanese people aren't inventing pronounciations for non-Japanese words, then calling the people whose languages those words are part of, "douchebags" for pronouncing their own words the way they actually are pronounced and always have been, instead of sitting up and going, "Oh some random foreigners have started mispronouncing our words, obviously that makes their way right, because Japan owns the planet, and we should all change the way we speak our own language because they say so."
Europeans don't care if you can't pronounce our words easily. We might make fun of you behind your back if you get a word really wrong, but it's hardly a crime. Just don't treat us like we're idiots or assholes for not changing our language because some Yanks find it difficult.
|by Anonymous||reply 26||August 22, 2010 5:28 PM|
Woody Allen's line ... "like an Arab she spoke" is classic self-parody of his own Jewish spin on everything. If only OP saw the irony for his own "pseudo-American" bitterness.
I say "pseudo-American" because the ones I meet more often than not ask how to pronounce my name and make an effort to do it correctly. It doesn't matter that it's perfect, but it speaks better of the whole country that they try.
We don't do this with names. God knows the rest of the world does not say "United States" any more than Americans use the French pronunciation of "France" or "Paris."
But someone's name, OP? It's respectful.
|by Anonymous||reply 27||August 22, 2010 5:35 PM|
french is a widely spoken language and used to be as important as English is today so pronouncing it right is more important i think than dutch or any of the European languages, even German and Italian.%0D %0D when speaking to someone and they pronounce the name right I usually switch to dutch thinking they speak the language when not I'm like oh... OK to myself i think why do you bother pronouncing it then
|by Anonymous||reply 28||August 22, 2010 5:41 PM|
I was at a production of Cabaret and an English lady mentioned "Lisa" Minnelli.
|by Anonymous||reply 29||August 22, 2010 5:51 PM|
We call Liza Minelli 'Lyzah' here, like you American folks.
|by Anonymous||reply 30||August 24, 2010 1:53 PM|
I saw "how-dah" for Gouda
|by Anonymous||reply 31||August 24, 2010 2:09 PM|
Oh, like the Brits are so good with pronunciations. Ha!%0D %0D They pronounce pasta as paasta. So do the Canucks, but then they usually do anything the Brits do.
|by Anonymous||reply 32||August 24, 2010 2:25 PM|
r32, 'pasta' is pronounced with both the short and long 'a' in Britain (it depends on who you talk to).
American wrongly pronounced Van Gogh - Van GO - much to the amusement of Europeans. Many Brits wrongly pronounced Van Gogh as Van GOFF.
I say Van Goch (pronounced like Loch). That's still wrong... but I cannot get my tongue around the Dutch pronunciation.
|by Anonymous||reply 33||August 24, 2010 3:42 PM|
Dr. Who met the man and pronounced his name, 'Fen Gouccgh'.
|by Anonymous||reply 34||August 24, 2010 3:56 PM|
You're lying, R30/UKDLer, I have a friend in England who said everyone there pronounces Liza like Leeza but the odd thing is Eliza in PYGMALION/MY FAIR LADY is pronounced the correct way.
|by Anonymous||reply 35||August 24, 2010 4:00 PM|
I'm an American, and an unpretentious one. I will continue to refer to him as "Van Goe", since that is the standard American pronunciation.%0D %0D The Dutch and the Brits can go fuck off.
|by Anonymous||reply 36||August 24, 2010 4:02 PM|
Have you ever considered that your friend is an idiot, r35? I'm British and have never heard this Leeza pronounciation either.
|by Anonymous||reply 37||August 24, 2010 4:04 PM|
[quote]I'm an American, and an unpretentious one. I will continue to refer to him as "Van Goe", since that is the standard American pronunciation.
Why would you think that pronouncing something correctly is 'pretentious'? How bizarre. Not that it matters in this case as you are unlikely to travel to anywhere else.
|by Anonymous||reply 38||August 24, 2010 4:08 PM|
R36, is that a parody post?
Unpretentious? "The Dutch and the Brits can go fuck off"?
Van Gogh was Dutch.
You're a moron. A pretentious cankerous moron.
|by Anonymous||reply 39||August 24, 2010 4:14 PM|
Fuck'em. You should hear those Europeans butcher the name of Thomas Kinkade.
|by Anonymous||reply 40||August 24, 2010 4:15 PM|
I believe a French pronunciation is preferred because he spent his most artistically important years in France? And he died there as well?
|by Anonymous||reply 41||August 24, 2010 4:17 PM|
I'm pretentious for NOT use a foreign pronunciation around my American peers?%0D %0D Mmmmkay. I think you need to look up pretentious. I was prepared for ignorant, conformist, boorish, dull, uncultured, unsophisticated...but not pretentious.
|by Anonymous||reply 42||August 24, 2010 6:16 PM|
So when I'm talking about Germany, do I need to say M%C3%83%C2%BCnchen and K%C3%83%C2%B6ln to make you happy, or is Munich and Cologne OK?
|by Anonymous||reply 43||August 24, 2010 6:29 PM|
^ sorry, I guess Datalounge doesn't do umlauts. Make that Muenchen and Koeln.
|by Anonymous||reply 44||August 24, 2010 6:37 PM|
Don't hate on OP. He's a sophisticated New Yorker; they are always correct.
|by Anonymous||reply 45||August 24, 2010 6:43 PM|
British English differs from American English even in its standards for pronouncing non-English words. As the BBC guide clearly explains, the BBC opts not to use either of the usual Dutch pronunciations, but to use a British alternative. In America, American broadcasters use an American alternative to "Van Gogh" - the "Go" version we're familiar with. When art historians and poseurs use the Dutch or even the British style they seem affected or not, depending on the audience and setting. So?
I live where Germans and French settled. The Germans named a street "Goethe" and their descendants still live in the neighborhood. They pronounce it "Go' Thee" with a hard "th." If I forget and pronounce it otherwise I get looks. A French street is "Chouteau." The family still is in the city. If I pronounce the street like the French family name, members of which I know, I get looks. People here now pronounce it "Show Toe."
So? When in Rome don't talk like you're in Prague, even if you're in a Czech restaurant.
|by Anonymous||reply 46||August 24, 2010 7:00 PM|
I love and appreciate you, R40.
|by Anonymous||reply 47||August 24, 2010 7:08 PM|
Shit, I butchered that post in every way.
The url again...
|by Anonymous||reply 48||August 24, 2010 7:22 PM|
I think one should do the best one can within the confines of one's language.
In Russia, Washington is spelled and pronounced Vashington. Hitler is Gitlyer. My Italian grandfather pronounced Shakespeare as though it were an Italian name: Shah-ke-spe-AH-reh.
In American English, we rarely use a throaty KH sound (like "loch"), so I'd be forgiving of "Van Go." Just as "Khrushchev" often became "Kroos-chev" and Menachim Begin often became "Menakum."
On the other hand, there's laziness. For example, we do have a common broad a sound, like "car," so calling him Mahatma Gandy (to rhyme with "brandy") in Cole Porter fashion is just lazy.
|by Anonymous||reply 49||August 24, 2010 7:25 PM|
I've heard Liza's name pronounced Ly-zer Me-nellay.
|by Anonymous||reply 50||August 24, 2010 7:33 PM|
[quote]My Italian grandfather pronounced Shakespeare as though it were an Italian name: Shah-ke-spe-AH-reh.
I'm considering steal that and making it my own.
|by Anonymous||reply 51||August 24, 2010 7:37 PM|
I'm all for Americans pronouncing non-English names as correctly as they can manage, but:%0D %0D When newscasters need to say the name of an American, do they all try to adopt the American pronunciation, or do they allow it to come across as distintly accented by their own native tongue? Because I wonder that when I hear American newscasters suddenly trying to sound like native Spanish or Italian or French speakers--do foreign newscasters try to sound middle American, and if not, why? And why would we not ask them to flatten out their vowels if that's the way we'd consider our names properly pronounced?%0D %0D
|by Anonymous||reply 52||August 24, 2010 7:38 PM|
M&3252;nchen and Köln. Please spell them correctly, R43.
|by Anonymous||reply 53||August 24, 2010 7:39 PM|
LOL @ myself for trying to be a bitch and having it backfire.
München, for fuck's sake!
|by Anonymous||reply 54||August 24, 2010 7:41 PM|
The Spanish-speaking NPR people drive me up a wall. In the middle of a commentary, if there is the name of a Spanish city or Spanish person, they won't pronounce it the American way. It's jarring to suddenly hear a Castilian word in the middle of an English-language sentence. Those same NPR people will go with Munich and Cologne instead of the German pronunciation.
|by Anonymous||reply 55||August 24, 2010 7:53 PM|
Memo to Brits-it's LYE-za, not LEE-za.%0D %0D It's also HYOO-ston, Texas, not HOO-ston. And the street in New York is pronounced HOW-ston.%0D %0D If you do this I promise never to pronounce Leicester Square LYE-chester Square again.
|by Anonymous||reply 56||August 24, 2010 8:00 PM|
[quote]It's also HYOO-ston, Texas, not HOO-ston.
Locals say "YOO-ston."
|by Anonymous||reply 57||August 24, 2010 8:06 PM|
In New York, the Van Wyck expressway goes to JFK Airport. The namesake family had said Van Wike since their arrival from Holland in the 1700. Despite requests by the family to radio and Tv traffic services to use the correct pronunciation, their reporters say Van Wick. Their excuse? "Most people say Van Wick." %0D
|by Anonymous||reply 58||August 24, 2010 8:23 PM|
[quot]Locals say "YOO-ston."%0D %0D I say YEW-stin, but whatever.
|by Anonymous||reply 59||August 24, 2010 8:23 PM|
The Irish word Celtic is pronounced Keltic.%0D Why does the basketball team in Boston with the shamrock logo say Seltic?
|by Anonymous||reply 60||August 24, 2010 8:27 PM|
It's pronounced "Fun Cock."
[quote]In fact, most Dutch people pronounce his surname along the lines of fun KHOKH
|by Anonymous||reply 61||August 24, 2010 8:31 PM|
r55 didn't you know NPR is the Elite? They created the affected elec-TORAL pronunication and love to look down on the peon listeners from their Washington pedestals as they tell us an event took place in Nee-hu-rah-wa.%0D
|by Anonymous||reply 62||August 24, 2010 8:40 PM|
Maria Hinojosa, host of NPR's "Latino USA" - when she comes on, I'm off to another station.
|by Anonymous||reply 63||August 24, 2010 8:57 PM|
Language evolves locally.
We don't call him Ee-you-lee-oos Kai-sar, even though that's how Julius Caesar would have said his own name.
For years, Jesus was called "Jay-zoo" in American English, which is a corruption of how the French say it: "Zhay-zoo"... which is a corruption of how the Greeks said it: "Ee-eh-soos"... which is a corruption of the Hebrew "Yeh-shua...."
Even dead languages evolve in their pronunciation. I grew up learning ecclesiastic Latin. When I first heard how classical Latin was really pronounced, it sounded so stupid. "Vene vidi vici" was "Weh-neh Weedy Weeky?" You're shitting me!
|by Anonymous||reply 64||August 24, 2010 9:01 PM|
According to the link at r16, Brits can't pronounce his name right either.
Let's agree that the OP is an idiot, but that Van Gogh is a difficult name to pronounce for anyone who doesn't speak Dutch.
And let's also not lump all Americans in with said idiot OP.
|by Anonymous||reply 65||August 24, 2010 9:10 PM|
[quote]I grew up learning ecclesiastic Latin.
OMG, I totally know! My nannies spoke katharevousa to me; imagine my horror at hearing demotiki for the first time!
|by Anonymous||reply 66||August 24, 2010 9:29 PM|
R66, ecclesiastic Latin is taught in many Catholic schools. It's hardly that unusual.%0D %0D Idiot.
|by Anonymous||reply 67||August 24, 2010 9:37 PM|
|by Anonymous||reply 68||August 24, 2010 9:55 PM|
I usually hear Liza's name pronounced, "Embarrassment."
|by Anonymous||reply 69||August 24, 2010 10:03 PM|
Just a bit of fun, R64! It sounded as though you grew up speaking ecclesiaticAL Latin as a native language. Please rethink the "idiot" abuse, R67.
|by Anonymous||reply 70||August 24, 2010 10:24 PM|
Conventional wisdom among some broadcast journos is that Qatar is correctly pronounced "gutter." If you can't recreate the actual Arabic pronunciation, please just say continue to say "catarrh."
|by Anonymous||reply 71||August 24, 2010 10:39 PM|
Backing up R30 who said we pronounce it "Lyza" in Britain. I say Van Gogh like "fan Goch", as in "loch"
|by Anonymous||reply 72||August 24, 2010 11:01 PM|
We need Former Dutchie to weigh in on this subject. And bring some poffertjes!
|by Anonymous||reply 73||August 24, 2010 11:20 PM|
"When newscasters need to say the name of an American, do they all try to adopt the American pronunciation, or do they allow it to come across as distintly accented by their own native tongue?"
I remember when the whole Terri Schiavo brouhaha was going on, the newscasters pronounced her surname "SHY-vo" 'cause that's the way her husband's family pronounces it. But what's the real Italian pronunciation? Is it "SKEE-ah-vo"?
|by Anonymous||reply 74||August 24, 2010 11:28 PM|
R70 -- Whoops. You're right. It's "veni" and "ecclesiastical." Fingers before brain. But I did say I grew up learning it, not speaking it. I wasn't raised by Cardinals. (Let's not imagine that...) I'm just trying to add what I can to the discussion. Mea maxima culpa. Now where did I leave that cilice?
Oh, and to add to the actual discussion, yes, the Italian pronunciation would be "skee-AH-vo."
And I have to admit that I prefer "mara-SKEE-no" cherries and "broo-SKET-ta" to "mara-SHEE-no" and "broo-SHET-a."
|by Anonymous||reply 75||August 24, 2010 11:47 PM|
The actual Dutch pronunciation of the name (which is Dutch) was VON HOCCCCCH.
But it had been Francofied by the family into "Van GO" during Vicent's lifetime, and that's how he and his brother pronounced it.
|by Anonymous||reply 76||August 25, 2010 12:53 AM|
Real murkans like me say EYE-rack and EYE-ran and EYE-talyan. None of that fancy foreign bullshit for us.
|by Anonymous||reply 77||August 25, 2010 1:03 AM|
so, they are pronouncing the name correctly, and you object to that.... why?
Would you be a happy camper if the BBC called Brigitte Bardot Briitte Bar - dot, instead of Bar - doe as well, or is it just that you think Van Gogh has been bastardized into Van Goe, for so long, that it's not ok to do it, or do you simply believe that pronouncing French names correctly is one thing, but pronouncing Dutch names correctly is douch-ey.
|by Anonymous||reply 78||August 25, 2010 2:06 AM|
South of Los Angeles is a city named "San Pedro".%0D But it is pronounced San-Peedro. Never understood that.
|by Anonymous||reply 79||August 25, 2010 4:53 AM|
It's ludicrous to expect non-Americans to even know what pronounciations America has invented for foreign words, much less to suddenly switch to using the after centuries of pronouncing them their own way. I was in my late teens before I visited America, and was thrown by all the differences in pronounciation and all the different words. I mean, I don't have any problem with it. I don't think there's anything wrong in Americanizing foreign words. It's your country, you can speak however you like there. I just literally didn't know most of these differences existed. I knew 'tomato' was pronounced differently, and I knew about a few words (like sidewalk/pavement). But most of them, I'd simply never heard of. Which is fine, you expect that when you go to a foreign country. But I think some Americans seriously overestimate their country's significance. It's not like we're consciously choosing to snub your way of speaking. We just don't know or care how you choose to pronounce things. Van 'Goe' is certainly not a pronounciation I'm familiar with, so why on earth should I use it?
|by Anonymous||reply 80||August 25, 2010 11:16 AM|
What's with people who say Loss Angle-eez?
|by Anonymous||reply 81||August 25, 2010 1:19 PM|